Mini 1160 - Cupcake Mafia! Cupcakes Baked to Perfection!

[vollkan]

/confirm

[vollkan]

Vote: VasudeVa

- still butthurt from Popularity Mafia

[vollkan]

I love Cupcakes ^_^

Vote: Volkan

for not loving cupcakes!

Katsuki and I have a "history"

[vollkan]

@vollkan: Is that to say you had to put up with Katsuki trying to

pastricize

you for 50 minutes and you no longer like cupcakes? Are you a muffin with frosting masquerading as a cupcake?

Since when do cupcakes contain pastry?

[vollkan]

vote: chesskid3

ANYTHING ELSE HAPPENS AND THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES. I'VE ALREADY USED AN ABILITY ON HIM, AND GOOD THINGS WILL HAPPEN IF HE'S LYNCHED TODAY. BUT ONLY TODAY.

Unvote, Vote: chesskid3

But if this is you lying to push a policy lynch, I will be pissed.

[vollkan]

I never said I had a guilty on you.
Why did you assume?
I said good things will happen once you're lynched, and that I had used an ability on you.

Unvote

Policy lynches are a terrible idea. I don't care how bad a player chesskid is.


Also, the clear implication from what you said is that you had power reasons to suspect his guilt. I can accept that you were joking, but it's a stupid joke to make.

"I'm going to vote completely based solely off your unprovable claim, and then get angry at you if he flips town, even though I contributed to the lynch myself."
I mean, I know this is vollkan we're talking about here, but I don't think he'd at least stop to think for a minute.

I had no reason to doubt your claim, other than the policy lynch point which I raised.

you conveniently side step anything to do with why you pressed chess for a claim when you knew you weren't lynching him.

The answer, again, is that the sooner we handled that situation, the sooner we could move on.

I read your argument a few times over, but I still can't see why you felt it necessary to ask for a claim. If you're smart enough to plan to feign L-1, you ought also to be able to know that, from CK's perspective, you probably looked serious.

Am I missing something?

[vollkan]

The part where Chesskid knew both of them were gambits?

He's said he believed Kise's. But that's really beside the point - because it doesn't alter the fact that demanding a claim makes no sense from Kise's perspective

[vollkan]

What's damning about asking for a claim at L-2? ESPECIALLY when people like yourself pretend that you weren't about to ride an easy quicklynch and blame it on Parama the next day. But I'm the bad guy....

If you genuinely thought the wagon was a bad idea (and given that it was clearly a policy lynch by that point, that was the only reasonable position to take), then I can't see why you would have wanted a claim. Asking "Why would I do this as scum?" is legitimate, but it doesn't address my confusion as to what the town motivation for your decision was (hence the lack of scumpoints for you - it really just makes no sense to me).

[vollkan]

EBWOP:

Maybe put it this way: If you accept that CK claiming was a serious risk, what benefit do you think asking him to claim would achieve to offset it?

[vollkan]

Lynching him would be the bigger risk, do you not agree? Getting everyone to back off of him if he had a pretty good role was something in the back of my head, but, as should be apparent since I'm not rolefishing at this point, I personally do not have any dying need to know what CK's role is. I rolefished for 2 or 3 lines right? Then hammered him.

I didn't accuse you of continuing to want to rolefish. But your explanation makes sense, on the assumption that you thought he was going to be lynched.

I wanna scumpoints chart now. I get nostalgic.

Player	Score
Fate	50
GreyICE	50
smargaret	50
CupcakePanda	50
chesskid3	50
VasudeVa	50
Stephoscope	50
GhostWriter	50
Parama	50
UshiromiyaAnge	50
tclawren	50
Kise	50

Explanation for the unitiated:
1) I use a points system to keep track of scumtells. Each person has a score ranging from 0 = absolute town, to 100 = absolute scum.
2) Each person starts at 50. A score of 50 means "I do not see a preponderance of town-ness or scumminess". Thus, a score of 50 does not mean "I have no opinion on this person". The reason I emphasise this will become clear in 3.
3) I am extremely sceptical of towntells and more-sceptical-than-average of scumtells. The towntells part is the big thing - it is extremely difficult for people to go below 50. It's not impossible - but it is really difficult (ie. "X is being really logical and posting a lot" will never be a towntell for me)
4) The highest scoring player (outside of special cases, see points 5 and 6 as the main examples) gets my vote.
5) My system tracks behavioural scumtells. It does not directly correlate with the probability that somebody is scum. Thus, if somebody has my highest score (and thus vote) but then, eg, gets confirmed innocent, their score would not go down, but I would unvote them.
6) If my #1 candidate is looking impossible nearing deadline, I will change to the next highest possible candidate to avoid No Lynch

[vollkan]

I have a feeling that Fate is a PRfaking lying scumbag. Fate claimed an unprovable except on flip antiTown role(PR restricted Hated Townie) when there is yet another unprovable except on flip AntiTown role(miller). If you don't think that's fishy, I don't know what to say. It at least deserves some examination. Why are you discouraging that?

VV+5

*

You're basically inciting suspicion here on no basis whatsoever, and in the most "passive" (not quite the right word, but I will explain) way possible.

An early miller claim should be a red flag to play close(r) attention, but it also isn't a scumtell. Ditto claiming a PR (even less so, in fact, since whereas scum has an incentive to claim miller, there is little to be gained from faking a PR). This gives rise to two problems: 1) The general pointlessness of a setup-based attack; and 2) The one-sidedness of your attack, since you are using the miller claim to cast doubt on Fate, when I see no reason why the precise opposite result (ie. Fate makes miller seem doubtful) isn't equally valid.

As for passivity: you're clearly making an attack on Fate, but you dress it up as you simply asking reasonable questions ("It at least deserves some examination" and "why are you discouraging that?"). In other words, it is not you advocating a position but, rather, you simply trying to learn information, when you are evidently of the view that Fate is scummy.

(* So that people have some sense of scale, 5 is my "average" score. I basically give it by default when I neither think a scumtell is particularly weak nor particularly serious).

[vollkan]

Also, now that I have points on the board, I can

Vote: VV

[vollkan]

Oh.

Oh. That's it.

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Vote: Fate

MUST KILL YOU TO BE ON A TEAM WITH PARAMA

FUCKING LOLERCOPTER

:S *confused*

[vollkan]

Grey, I am not sheeping Fate's case at all. That at least should be obvious. He's making some strange correlation between you and VV. I'm saying that your cases are reaching and are based on bad meta. I also don't like the way I can't tell where you really stand on a lot of players. May I have a list of reads?

Do you agree with Fate's attack on Grey. If so, can you explain it with normal punctuation and no FUCKs?

It appears to be crafted to attempt to rolefish. If one player has a role that mentions muffins, maybe more roles have mentionings of muffins and he is attempting to see who comes forth on that. And then there is the obvious, "Why is smargaret demanding us to question the Miller claim, though he is not taking any action on it himself," thing as well.

Smarg+5

Good point. I think the passivity element (ie.raising an ostensibly serious issue, but not doing anything about) is more serious than the potential rolefishing one, though (only because it is very clearly doing the passivity, whereas the rolefishing is more ambiguous)


*The Grey-Fate thing is just stupid bouncing off stupid*

[vollkan]

What do you think of UA toying with Kise?

Frankly, I don't have a clue what is going on there, or if either of them is being serious. (ala Fate-Grey). I'm basically approaching UA, Grey and Fate (and now Kise in part) on the basis that if they are serious about anything, they will explain it to everybody else. I don't have the time right now to trawl through spammy exchanges trying to separate crap from substance.

Tag fixing.

[vollkan]

Vollkan +10

Fence is flat you sat on it so hard.

I'm not fence-sitting; I just gave up reading after the first few exchanges of this quadpartite pissing contest.

When one of you can make a clearly serious argument, I'll be happy to take a position on it.

[vollkan]

I was waiting to discuss this with my companion, but now we have so.

Hey, vollkan, how about you stop

...and start scumhunting?

And no, +10 on smarg does not count as an acceptable contribution. Are you seriously telling me absolutely nothing else of import has happened? Are you just pretending Kise and tclawren don't exist? Have you no thoughts on Parama? Even if you're waiting to see the GI/Fate/UA love triangle destroy itself, there's a FUCK TON more you could comment on, yet refuse to.

~UK

I don't think I have not commented on much, once you remove the mess.

Also, the following meta-compilation I produced in a previous town game where a similar issue has come up is relevant: Click Here! All spam and no substance makes me aloof.

I'm far more skeptical than some of you of both Grey and Fate and their tiff. In DEFCON 2.0, Fate pulled the same types of attacks against me that resounds similarly here against Grey, however, in Camden, Grey used the same attacks against me as he started off with here as well. They were scum in their corresponding games.

Fate gets wild in every game, but not usually in the same type of scuffle which I am seeing here, which is what was reminding me of DEFCON. If he gets a little support as scum, he gets dangerous and feels he can take on a lot.

Grey's reads always seem better when he is town; I recall the stellar deconstruction in Multiple Personality Mafia that he had. Here, he is far more whimsical, almost "I don't care," mode.

In other words, I don't see any reason to call either obvtown. They aren't performing in a manner that I would write it off, and more so similar to manners I saw in previous games they played as scum. I am wary of Parama, suddenly, for his "I think they are both town, and this is going to be a trainwreck." My gut really didn't like that line of commentary, almost like it sounded as if there was a hint of inside information behind it.

Townreads are dodgy at the best of times, but I can't for the life of me see how the Fate-GeyICE issue makes either of them town. Overloading the thread with spam and bluster isn't scummy (at least on their meta), but it sure as hell isn't a towntell.

1) My problems with Fate are not what you said. He's:
Pushing lynches by yelling a lot
Making no real drives towards discovering people's alignments
Has, since the vote, made an ever-mutating case on me that boils down to 'he's scum because I want to lynch him.'
Has changed his post restriction. If this was pro-town, why not do it in the first place?
Has claimed to become hated townie if he broke it. Claimed that he would rage himself down to L-0 if I didn't get lynched. Then revealed he can rage without breaking it AND NOT HIT L-0. That means it was basically a gambit to pretend that he would alignment confirm himself without doing so. That's a gambit, yes. It's not one that's a TOWN gambit.
Has since claimed mysterious powers. He LOVES claiming mysterious powers as scum. And Fate, if you cry like Meta, I will link to game after game of your magical 'mysterious powers.' These powers are ever-mutable, to fit whatever will keep the lynch wagon off him, and they are just scum made up shit.
Has decided to call everyone who won't vote for me scum in a hissy fit of epic proportions.
Makes no fucking sense.

Thankyou!

The first three are basically classic Fate play: All tip and no iceberg.

The thing about changing his PR is a null tell. There is no town incentive to do it, but it's also not self-evidently scummy. Coming from somebody as messed up as Fate, it isn't scummy. The hated townie thing nudges it toward a scumtell, but it's a gambit that has no point. Where is the incentive for scum in it - as soon as he hit L-1, somebody would almost undoubtedly hammer. NOBODY in their right mind would say "Oh, gee, Fate mustn't be a hated townie. In that case, we better lynch somebody else"

"mysterious powers" - is this is a thing that Fate does, including when he is scum; or a thing Fate only does as scum?

Hissy fit and no fucking sense are, again, typical Fate.

[vollkan]

This line is fucking terrible Fate.

"I am confirmed town, let me live to massclaim. Then you can lynch me."

This is like a dare that should you end up alive at Massclaim (which normally happens around MyLo/LyLo) that you don't think anyone would question it. By that point, enough roles could be out for you to make up whatever role you want for you claim to make it look provable, or you can just give town the finger and say, "You can't risk lynching me now!"

I also have seen at least two posts now where your rainbow sprinkles have been messed up and heard or seen no repercussion for it.

At the risk of repeating what I said in my last post, Fate's play around his PR and softclaiming is utterly ridiculous (for what it's worth, I think everything he is saying about it is BS), but it is entirely consistent with Fate's playstyle.

Whilst I don't for a second believe his claiming, I find it similarly unlikely that scum-Fate would seriously believe that he could prolong his own existence by making vague claims and demanding to be kept alive until MC. There is simply no realistic scum strategy for what he is doing; and, for all his insanity, Fate isn't an idiot. In short, what he is doing is stupid and I believe it is playing a major role in the current level of apathy, but it isn't "scummy".

I can tell already our playstyles are going to be incompatible. I am of the school that meta only serves to justify what you are already thinking, and is more or less useless. I ignore meta arguments. So, if you want to sway me on an issue, I'd appreciate you making arguments that are only within the scope of this game.

To break down what is happening.

People are arguing:
1) Vollkan is being aloof
2) Aloofness is scummy because it is evasive
3) Therefore, vollkan is scummy

"scummy" means "more likely to come from scum than town"

My response to this is as follows:
1) Vollkan agrees he is being aloof
2) Aloofness is not scummy because vollkan has a tendency to become aloof in circumtances similar to this
3) Therefore, vollkan is not scummy

I don't see how you can say that my history is irrelevant for assessing my actions.

To use an extreme example, suppose it turns out that, site-wide, scum ALWAYS use the word "elephant" in their third post. Suppose, however, that we have a player named X who just so happens to use the word "elephant" in his third post in every single game, regardless of his alignment. Even though, at the general level, using the word "elephant" is a solid scumtell, are you seriously telling me that your response to X would be "Nope, sorry, I don't care about meta"?

[vollkan]

At the risk of repeating what I said in my last post, Fate's play around his PR and softclaiming is utterly ridiculous (for what it's worth, I think everything he is saying about it is BS), but it is entirely consistent with Fate's playstyle.

Whilst I don't for a second believe his claiming, I find it similarly unlikely that scum-Fate would seriously believe that he could prolong his own existence by making vague claims and demanding to be kept alive until MC. There is simply no realistic scum strategy for what he is doing; and, for all his insanity, Fate isn't an idiot. In short, what he is doing is stupid and I believe it is playing a major role in the current level of apathy, but it isn't "scummy".\

Uh have you read the multiple games where he does EXACTLY THIS and it WORKS?

To be clear, you are saying that there is precedent for Fate-scum softclaiming and being kept alive because of said soft-claim?

I would, vollkan. I'd vote player X for that. (Though to be fair I'd question a meta scumtell like that to begin with, but if we're assuming that it's just completely true and no one could possibly think different, then yeah).

I'm surprised by that. I guess it leads me to another question: would your vote for X be on grounds of scumminess (eg. "I think X is more likely to be scum than town") or policy (eg. "I don't think X should be able to get away with committing a common scumtell"). If the latter, then I guess we hit another more fundamental playstyle difference, given that I think policy lynches are completely unacceptable (I'd even go so far as to argue that they violate the play-to-win rule).

... vollkan is self-metaing? LOL.

I'm actually self-meta-metaing, because the game I linked to is one of my completed town games in which I made precisely the same meta defence that I am making here.

[vollkan]

@What I look for is scum intent. If there were some scum intent in posting elephant in your third post, I would seize upon it as a good starting point, and continue to assess everyone. I see scum intent in aloofness. If you do it all the time, that does not remove the scum intent. Is it going to mean I think you're scum forever? No. I mean, if I believed that I'd have to vote myself every game for the possible scum intent in voting the mod. Hopefully this explains why I disregard meta better than I have been.

Theory debate, so feel free not to respond. I'd just point out that I think "scum intent" is really a proxy for trying to find evidence that something is more likely to come from scum than town.

To prove this: Both town and scum have a motivation to vote (town to catch scum, scum to lynch town). Of course, nobody would suggest that voting is a scumtell simply because there is possible scum intent - because obviously there is a good chance a voter is town. Likewise, to use a non-meta-scumtell and make this more relevant, if a player is consistently apathetic under certain circumstances, there remains a "scum intent", but the evidential significance of that intent is eroded.

To be clear, you are saying that there is precedent for Fate-scum softclaiming and being kept alive because of said soft-claim?

o_O

Please don't tell me you're serious

Yes...?

*ducks*

Any links?

BTW, vollkan the whole self serving "i don't do this as scum!" self-meta didn't work in Popularity Mafia. Why would you do that again here?

Because it's true.

For meta reasons Fate and GreyICE are town. They did the same thing in the dating game mafia and both were town. Kise and all his gambiting goodness is town. These three need to stop targeting each other.

I can't say much about the Fate thing, but I completely fail to see how Fate-GeyICE makes them town. The fact that they have had a similar argument before has nothing to do with their alignment.

(And before the inevitable howling from certain quarters, there is a big difference between me saying "Apathy from me in these sorts of situations is not a scumtell because it happens to me a lot no matter what my alignment" and C-Worl saying "Fate and GeyICE have been like this in another game, so they are both town")

C-Worl is the worst player in the game, replacing the formerly worst slot. SHock. And AWE.
scumread on the slot reinstated.

VI =/= Scum

Vollkan is still a disaster (I vote based on meta! I won't check the meta, but Fate is town because of meta!).

I never "refused" to check Fate's meta. It's just that from my knowledge of his meta, this matches null-Fate. You say he is playing the way Fate-scum players, which obviously changes things.

-This is still one of the scummier posts of the game. "I'll hop on, but if you're lying and pushing a PL on town [Because I know you're both town] I'll be soooo mad!"

This is my fault for wording it the way I did. But to repeat, as I have said already I had no reason to doubt Parama's claim. By "I'll be pissed if this is a policy lynch" it was to say to Parama "If you aren't 100% serious about this, come clean now"

Also of note, his case is "not complete." Now why wouldn't he put together a complete case? Maybe it's because his first attempt didn't fly right away. He couldn't get any grabbers. So now he's got to go find something else to twist to whatever he wants. He did this EXACT SAME THING in DEFCON.

Cupcake+5

Horribly overused, but this is one situation where the word "reaching" is appropriate. Posting an incomplete case is not a scumtell.

IF (and it's a massive IF) he then ran away to something else, then maybe you would have an argument. But preemptively calling him scum based on posting an incomplete case is just ridiculous.

I could believe a poorly written PR that lets has a loophole. I cannot believe there is essentially no repercussions. You have broken you PR four times. You are either a liability or scum. I'm leaning scum.

VOTE: Fate

And again...faking a PR =/= scummy

[vollkan]

Oh hai Vollk, that's a cool wall ya got thur. Y no Toog vote in it??

Because Toog isn't #1:

Player	Score
Fate	50
GreyICE	50
smargaret	55
CupcakePanda	55
chesskid3	50
VasudeVa	55
Stephoscope	50
GhostWriter	50
Parama	50
UshiromiyaAnge	50
tclawren	50
Kise	50

Notably, Toog's post came significantly AFTER Toog's vote on Fate. Fate's vote is on page 19. Cupcake is on page 17. Misrepresentation to build to a vote is a scumtell, oh yes it is. +10 Vollkan.

What's your point exactly? Toog says that the incomplete case was a scumtell. The fact his post came way after his vote doesn't seem relevant to that at all.

[vollkan]

Notably, Toog's post came significantly AFTER Toog's vote on Fate. Fate's vote is on page 19. Cupcake is on page 17. Misrepresentation to build to a vote is a scumtell, oh yes it is. +10 Vollkan.

What's your point exactly? Toog says that the incomplete case was a scumtell. The fact his post came way after his vote doesn't seem relevant to that at all.

Cupcake+5

Horribly overused, but this is one situation where the word "reaching" is appropriate. Posting an incomplete case is not a scumtell.

IF (and it's a massive IF) he then ran away to something else, then maybe you would have an argument. But

preemptively calling him scum based on posting an incomplete case is just ridiculous.

Toog had been voting for him for two days.

So Toog was calling him scum and voting to lynch him for two pages before Fate voted Toog. Toog was pointing out another scummy thing the person Toog's vote WAS SITTING ON was doing.

You done fucked up, son.

I think we must be talking at cross-purposes or something. Which part of the following don't you get:

1) Panda attacked Fate for an incomplete case, alleging (conspiracy argument) that Fate was trying to cover his arse from commitment.
2) A person's case is only scummy if and when they complete it (ie. nothing scummy about an incomplete case).
3) It is scummy to attack somebody in preemption of them actually finishing their argument, based on conspiracy about their motives (ie. "X is trying to avoid posting in full")
4) Thus, Panda is scummy

Hence, I can't see why the two pages thing is relevant. Heck, it could have been 20 pages and I'd still have a problem with Panda's argument.

[vollkan]

Hey vollkan
No offense
your points system is totally useless

unvote, vote: vollkan

though it's not exactly that important in this game

Using a points system you don't like =/= scum

So Fate hasn't posted since he made that case and has had no opportunity to complete it!

You've got the chronology messed up:

My case is not complete.

Also of note, his case is "not complete." Now why wouldn't he put together a complete case? Maybe it's because his first attempt didn't fly right away. He couldn't get any grabbers. So now he's got to go find something else to twist to whatever he wants. He did this EXACT SAME THING in DEFCON.

Yes, Fate has posted since then, but I can't for the life of me see how you don't have a problem with Panda calling him scummy for it. By all means, if Fate can't come up with anything, whack on the scumpoints, but I fail to see why him saying "my case is not complete" is some damning admission.

And that's ignoring the fact that Panda had been calling fate scum for two pages, so saying that Panda was calling him scum because of the incomplete case is a total, provable misrep.

I don't think I've ever even implied that Panda's only reason for suspecting Fate is this issue.

[vollkan]

vollkan you completely misrepresented me there, nice job.

You complained about the points system being useless and then voted me. Exactly what did I misrepresent?

See, the thing is, the only point you have ever raised against me (despite repeatedly calling me scum)is my chesskid vote, which I've already addressed twice now (with nobody responding to me on).

You guys realize he DID just claim Bulletproof with some bullshit flavor to EXPLAIN why he knew scum were muffins and he had that on his mind.

Didn't somebody say that muffins were mentioned in the signup thread?

WHAT? It says, "Fate and Parama are both acting like scum in their respective LOLHISTORYMETA, so I dunno I wouldn't call EITHER obvtown.... BUT.. Parama is scummy because he has inside info that BOTH are town."

None of the word jumple makes ANY clear line of town thought. It DOES however leave him open on lynch options of not one but THREE townies. Holy fuck scumbag.

It would make sense if he was just doing it to attack Parama (ie. "Fate and GreyICE are playing like scum, so why is Parama defending them") but the post is clear that he actually suspects you and GreyICE. As in, there is inconsistency in saying:
1) X and Y are scummy;
2) Z is scummy because he seems to have knowledge X and Y are town

In short, to the extent that he is suspicious of Parama, he must necessarily not be suspicious of you two.

And, wait...I'm agreeing with Fate.

Anyway,

Toog+5

Terrible line how? If the scumteam leaves me alive until LyLo then TOWN WILL WIN guaranteed. If you THINK that my softclaim is survival motivated instead of pro-town motivated, then you should make an ACTUAL case on me rather than making that the case itself. Aka as town you could go "Wow Fate is saying no one should question why he's alive till massclaim? K... well HERES why Fate is scummy and we should hear his bullshit claim now."

INSTEAD you try and twist my softclaim into a scumtell itself, where it isn't, by going "TROLOLOL SOFTCLAIM? FATE IS SCUM WHO WANTS TO SURVIVE." The worst part is how clearly you're just piggybacking off of GreyDERP to get me lynched. More of your buddies are going to have to jump on (TCLA being the latest one, if memory serves?) to get me lynched. I don't think Volkan can pull it off atm though.

Do you accept GreyICE's argument that softclaiming to stay alive as scum is part of your meta?

[vollkan]

I'm getting more suspicious of Vollkan. The points thing seems to be a very arbitrary way to avoid voting your scumbuddy while saying they're scummy. Also, he's not following his own rules - Toog and Cupcake are the same, right? So Toog is now at 60 on the little magic chart, which is currently the highest number - shouldn't Vollkan be voting Toog now?

Yeah, I just don't know what the votecount is. Since he's claimed, I figured he may be at L-1. By virtue of his chart position, though, he has my vote.

[vollkan]

Okay, I've checked the VC and cupcake is only at 2 votes, so:

Vote: CupcakePanda

[vollkan]

This game is draining me.

Freedom is one chesskid away.

You're replacing out?

[vollkan]

WOW YES BECAUSE BITCHING ABOUT THE GAME, FOLLOWED BY A REFERENCE TO CHESSKID (WHO REPLACED OUT) AND ANOTHER POST WHERE HE SAYS "I'VE MADE UP MY MIND" DOESN'T INDICATE AN INTENTION TO REPLACE OUT.

ALSO, EVERYTHING MAKES MORE SENSE WITH CAPS LOCK

[vollkan]

Good lord Volkan's latest posts of "THATS NOT A SCUMTELL YOU DUMB FUCK ITS OK IF YOU CATCH ME BUT NOT WITH SHIT LIKE THAT" are making this INCREDIBLY difficult...

What on earth are you talking about?

[vollkan]

Volkan can continue to lurk as he is right now, I see you Volkan, and that will make it all the more easier to lynch him tomorrow.

I'm not lurking; and I haven't been posting spam. The fact that I haven't been participating in a spammy circlejerk doesn't make me scum.

[vollkan]

So....
hard...


to resist....

bussing you...

R

A

I

N

B

O

W

See, this is exactly why I am getting annoyed. I get that not everybody has my playstyle, and I get that this game has an unusually high proportion of people who have the exact opposite playstyle to me. But the "case" against me really just seems to be:
1) People misinterpreted the first vote I made (and have ignored my subsequent explanations); and
2) I don't have verbal diarhhea (and have ignored my meta on this point);

combined with repeated and unelaborated assertions of my scummines.

[vollkan]

LLD has been busy this entire weekend. Deal with it. As for the rest of your post, perhaps you should show instead of tell. I'm rather unimpressed.

I've been busy the entire weekend. The game's been going since the 25th. Your excuse is null. I'm not mad, I find it entertaining that you're so full of your self that you think because you use big words that it makes you suddenly smarter than other people. At least I've argued points with people and answered questions directed at me. You ignored Kise for shits and giggles which doesn't help the game at all. Stop trying to stall the game.

He wants you to wait 16 hours. How on earth is that "stalling the game"?

[vollkan]

And can we please lynch Vollkan now?

So far the only reason you've given for suspecting me is that you think my points system (which I use EVERY game), is arbitrary (meaning what?) and that I am using it to avoid voting Toog (and I explained my initial non-voting by reference to absence of VC, which you've entirely ignored).

smarg+5

So, one of your reasons for wanting me lynched is simply BS (it's suspecting me for a constant feature of my playstyle) and the other is for a reason which is also BS and, moreover, is entirely contingent on Toog being scum.

[vollkan]

Hey vollkan
I haven't really said a word about why I want to lynch you
and I'm driving this wagon

Parama+5

Any other members of the peanut gallery?

[vollkan]

EBWOP/Elaboration:

I expect my attitude is going to get cries of "OMGUS", so in pre-emption:

I don't have a problem with arguments being made against me, and I can even tolerate an absence of arguments where it is early game (as it was when the whole sideshow about my chesskid vote began) or if it is just standard pressuring argy-bargy. But once a wagon reaches the point of seriousness (and, unfortunately, it isn't clear with my wagon where it reached the point, because it's been vacillating over time), it's completely unacceptable to just sit back and snipe away with the sort of off-hand statements that people have been making - especially where I have responded to every semblance of an argument that has been raised against me (only to either be ignored or dismissed on the utterly moronic ground that self-meta is somehow inherently invalid) .

If people: 1) give reasons and 2) genuinely engage with my responses to those reasons; then I will gladly spin on a dime and retract the points (which, after all, are specifically for an absence of reasons). But, failing that, I am not about to let an easily exploitable wagon build on me for either no or trivial reasons.

[vollkan]

Also dude.
You just wrote: "You shouldn't lynch me with bad reasoning because that's terrible." You're offended that we'd lynch you without a good reason that you're scum. You're not offended that we're lynching you because you're town and getting mislynched, you're offended we're not filling out the right paperwork.
Like bollocks you're flipping town.

*sigh* And again you (and Parama it seems) completely miss the point. The best way for me to derail my mislynch is to expose the complete absence of any shred of reasonable argument from my accusers.

The "case" against me has just been this ever-intensifying circlejerk of:

X: OMG VOLLKAN IS SCUM
Y: YEAH!
Z: TOTALLY LYNCHING HIM
Vollkan: Because...?
X: BAHAHA HE IS SCUM
Y: OH WOW HE IS SO SCUMMY
Z: WHY ISN'T HE DEAD YET
Vollkan: Why am I scum?
etc.

This isn't about "the right paperwork"; it's about showing that the push on me is fundamentally flawed. Bitching about the fact that you guys are pushing a mislynch isn't going to convince anybody (nor ought it); but pointing out the stupidity or your attacks will (and it ought to)

[vollkan]

Also, if you want precedent check out Peril in Panama where ABR got me mislynched on me for what I considered to be stupid reasons. Does the following give you a sense of de ja vu?

Alright. May she rest in peace and her dying wishes be granted.

Vote: Volkan

Do you have a case perchance?

His response:

Volkan you are scummy as hell.

Me (quoting myself):

Do you have a case perchance?

That puts me to L-1.

I find it truly beyond comprehension that I am at L-1 despite there not actually having been a case raised against me - other than Albert's narrative which I have already addressed. And now I am being accused of BS, as though that in itself constitutes an argument.

we don't need any evidence or case to lynch you

This seriously ought to ring alarm bells.

You don't have any outs left, Volkan

That tends to happen when one is accused of being scum for no reason other than the fact that another player can conceive of a scenario where one is scum.

Regardless. This game is not about rebutting arguments. That would be like looking under your bed for coins when you have a wallet packed with bills. Mafia is about common sense. What do you think is more likely ? And what do you think should be done about it ? The question answers itself. Your grave is calling you, Volkan. Surrender yourself to it.

My response towhich was:

I can see I'm not going to be able to convince you that "Lynching without a case is bad".

I am humbled to say that I have no doubts that you are scum.

and when I was hammered:

*sigh*
Nice to see Pete making such a well-explained hammer - particularly given that he has expressed no prior suspicion of me.

[vollkan]

vollkan:

talk to the hand

that is all

that i'm saying to you

rest of the game

adieu

Kafka would be proud

[vollkan]

What is this I don't even...

[vollkan]

Vollkan I had as bad but not necessarily scum. He felt like the kind of person who was struggling with playstyles antithetical to his own, so good on him playing that up I guess? Fate still saw through it though.

This point is interesting.

I decided that the best thing I could do amid the playstyles we had was to lay low, in the hope that Fate got angry enough at somebody that I'd be spared. But I also geniunely couldn't think of a thing to post, which meant that when I did try to redeem myself later on, I guess it looked desperate.

In hindsight, I think that if I was town, I would have done a lot more grumbling at Fate and co then I did here, because then it would have genuinely pissed me off that people were playing that way, rather than it just being an inconvenience. However, I am also quite sure I would have been similarly "fence-sitting" even if I was town (just a grumpy fence-sitter)

Really? 'cause Vollkan's bussing with Toog was so transparent on reread that it hurts.

Yeah I was panicked by the fact that I literally had NOTHING else that I felt I could naturally comment on

[vollkan]

To be fair, I think the worst thing you did was trying to let Fate and GI kill each other, in retrospect. I probably should have pressed you more on that. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but out of the people known for the...ah...louder playstyle that you seemed to dislike, you were more willing to play ball with me/LLD. That's the impression I got anyway. You being scum probably colored that.

Your impression is accurate. I'm not entirely sure why, but it probably has something to do with you at least making arguments that were closest to the type that I can engage with. For the others, I was just blank. I don't think me being scum affected that, since it comes down to the way I think about the game at the most basic levels (eg. my response to GreyICE's "paperwork" argument was completely genuine).

I was thoroughly amused by all the loud town voices in this game. Was very curious to see how Vollkan would deal with it.

[vollkan]

So Volkan, and please be honest with me here, are you suggesting that if you were town this game you would've played the exact same way and would've been misvigged?

Not exactly...I've already said that if I was town I would have been far angrier at the "loud" players. But in terms of my actual levels of scumhunting (other than the desperate bussing of Toog), I would have been pretty similar. And, so, (especially given that my genuine anger would most likely have been misconstrued as theory ranting in lieu of scumhunting) I would still have probably been misvigged.

The "self-meta" I gave is completely accurate: if I don't get the sort of material I need to work with, I basically become paralysed. Most of the time, it isn't a problem, because it's rare that there is a breakdown in the type of play I need, and, even if there is, it usually is only a very short-term thing. However, if I had been town in

this

game, I am almost certain that I'd have been a massive liability