Open 333 : Carbon-14 - Game ended

[saulres]

I didn't hammer you when I had the chance. If I'm the scum and you're town, that would mean I'm just drawing the game out sadistically, because doing so would have won the game for me.

[DonJosh]

True.

VOTE: Cobblerfone

Confirm Scum from my POV.

[saulres]

Seriously? That's it?

No case? Just "I'm town so he must be scum"? No defense against the arguments thrown out against you?

[DonJosh]

-.- I'm not done. I'm ISOing him now.

[DonJosh]

This is why you were my top scumspect until you were confirmed town. You're always swingy; sometimes you stall things that don't need to be stalled, and other times you jump to conclusions. Just saying.

[saulres]

Yeah, I'm trying to stop jumping to conclusions. I'm just impatient, and I need to learn to step away from the game when I have other things on my mind.

But I'm finding that I also tend to be much more conservative as the decision has a greater impact on the game. On Day 1, not so much. When it's down to "If I vote this way the game ends" then a lot more.

[DonJosh]

Wow. I just read through Cobbler's ISO, and I don't know why he's not dead yet. Especially after Xalxe's flip.

/confirm

Saulres is probtown.

I believe this caused some controversy right from the start?

Cobbler, what makes you say that?

I'll say at the end of RVS. Now, some questions:

@Whiskers: I briefly read a couple posts of one of the games you were in. You seem to have a delightful posting style. How do you expect to do this game?
@Kondi: I checked a completed newbie game that you replaced in and saw that your very first vote was for scum. Do you expect you'll do as impressively this game?
@Xalxe: I saw on your wiki page that you prefer to be a pro-scum player. What do you like about being scum? Do you feel you do poorly as town?
@Saulres: What is your experience with mafia? Have you played much off-site?
@DonJosh: I remember playing some marathon games with you, but I couldn't find any normal ones to research. How would you describe your play?

@Everyone: What's so bad about Mist?

This post is an example of the two most WIFOMy things scum can do.
1. RQS
2. Pre-game research

Okay, kondi still hasn't responded. So I'll just say I have a townread on Whiskers and a weaker one on Saulres. Whiskers, because pony asked for my favorite alignment then put some extra thought into it and asked for my favorite role. Saulres because of the L+3 thing and redoing his post.

Random town-reads.

VOTE: DonJosh

For claiming he's trying out a new playstyle.

Clearly RVS. BUT WAIT...

Actually it was serious. To explain, "trying out a new style" can be an excuse to avoid comparisons to previous town-meta. It's not much, but it's early. With my townread posts I felt we were out of RVS but still in RQS, so... yeah.

...NO! now it's a serious vote.

Scumspects: Mist for #101 (mainly the copycat cry of "Whiskers stop vote hopping" rubs me wrong) DonJosh is relatively only leaning scum for previous reasons. Xalxe is getting scummier by the post. Examples of my posts without content please? The only reason I'm not voting you right now is because I'd expect scum acting like you are to be more competent than this. And I don't see a Mist/Xalxe scumteam as likely.

VOTE: Mist

Makes Xalxe seem like his top scumspect, yet votes Mist.

Well there goes the backup plan.

Hmm...

Woah, I just realized if Xalxe's the cop we have both scum then. It's almost too good to be true. I have to think about this.

UNVOTE:

In case Mist IS scum.

No. Impossible. Xalxe was already conf-scum at this point. I'm not buying the "It's almost too good to be true!" crap.

UNVOTE:

I just want to hear from DonJosh before Xalxe can quickhammer himself.

Saulres' stalling edged him ahead of DonJosh for me.

Unvoting his scumbuddy before he "quick-hammers himself"???

Wait no, I think it was Mist.

Still, Don looks worse.

LOLOLOL

[saulres]

Xalxe was already conf-scum at this point

No he wasn't. Both he and Xalxe claimed cop, and we hadn't started the "who's the seer" talk yet.

[DonJosh]

Xalxe was already conf-scum at this point

No he wasn't. Both he and Xalxe claimed cop, and we hadn't started the "who's the seer" talk yet.

Oh. My bad.

[DonJosh]

IMO, It's still a partner-tell post, though.

[saulres]

Do you have any defense for the arguments made against you?

In 353, 359, 363, and 367?

[Cobblerfone]

Cobbler, what makes you say that?

I'll say at the end of RVS. Now, some questions:

@Whiskers: I briefly read a couple posts of one of the games you were in. You seem to have a delightful posting style. How do you expect to do this game?
@Kondi: I checked a completed newbie game that you replaced in and saw that your very first vote was for scum. Do you expect you'll do as impressively this game?
@Xalxe: I saw on your wiki page that you prefer to be a pro-scum player. What do you like about being scum? Do you feel you do poorly as town?
@Saulres: What is your experience with mafia? Have you played much off-site?
@DonJosh: I remember playing some marathon games with you, but I couldn't find any normal ones to research. How would you describe your play?

@Everyone: What's so bad about Mist?

This post is an example of the two most WIFOMy things scum can do.
1. RQS
2. Pre-game research

Debunk: Look on my wiki for Newbie 1123.

Okay, kondi still hasn't responded. So I'll just say I have a townread on Whiskers and a weaker one on Saulres. Whiskers, because pony asked for my favorite alignment then put some extra thought into it and asked for my favorite role. Saulres because of the L+3 thing and redoing his post.

Random town-reads.

Debunk: Those are not random at all. The reasons are right there.

VOTE: DonJosh

For claiming he's trying out a new playstyle.

Clearly RVS. BUT WAIT...

Actually it was serious. To explain, "trying out a new style" can be an excuse to avoid comparisons to previous town-meta. It's not much, but it's early. With my townread posts I felt we were out of RVS but still in RQS, so... yeah.

...NO! now it's a serious vote.

Debunk: It doesn't say at all that it's random.

UNVOTE:

I just want to hear from DonJosh before Xalxe can quickhammer himself.

Saulres' stalling edged him ahead of DonJosh for me.

Unvoting his scumbuddy before he "quick-hammers himself"???

Yes, he was confirmed scum at that point and could have quickhammered himself to end discussion.

Wait no, I think it was Mist.

Still, Don looks worse.

LOLOLOL

Debunk: LOLOLOL

[saulres]

Cobbler, I didn't think any of those were solid arguments. The two most damning posts DonJosh came up with against you were 106, where you said -- wait, no, I take that back. DonJosh's arguments against that were that Xalxe was your top scumpick but you voted Mist, but I don't see that in the post. I see you saying Mist is your top pick and while Xalxe was getting scummier, you didn't see them as a team.

So the only real case I see DonJosh bringing against you is 333. Why were you concerned that Xalxe would quickhammer? What were you worried would happen if he did?

PEDIT: Looks like you covered that one as well

Be back shortly, I think I'm ready to end the game.

[DonJosh]

References to Xalxe are quite different. DonJosh tends to be more "Xalxe is town town town" while Cobbler's more "Xalxe is scum scum scummier". So we've either got DonJosh as scum trying to say his partner looks good, while townie Cobbler's reading him well, or we've got townie DonJosh reading him poorly and scum Cobbler distancing.

Cobbler was distancing and doing a poor job, ie declaring him as scum, but then voting for someone else. Or voting him, then unvoting later. I'm obviously just bad at reading people, cuz I legit thought Xalxe was town (until that time he disappeared for a while...)

UNVOTE: Mist7676
VOTE: No Lynch

I suggest Mist for investigation.

Xalxe sounds good I guess.

Still would prefer Mist, though

I'm finding Xalxe's sudden disappearance scummy beyond [earth].

Actually, scratch that. Since a potential advantage is clearing someone, I want one of the more active players investigated.

And Whiskers going along with this plan, an enhancing it, makes me think he's town.

Let's investigate Xalxe.

I had my doubts about Saulres after yesterday, but I'm glad I ISO'd them. DonJosh is scum. It isn't until he's set to be investigated that he decides Xalxe is extremely scummy. While Saulres was actually the one to suggest Xalxe be investigated. This is good enough for me:

VOTE: DonJosh

Honestly, I don't see what he's getting at here. I went along with the plan and suggested Mist. Since everyone else seemed to suspect Xalxe, I decided sure, may as well try it. It can't hurt. After all, there were two scum. Then when Xalxe disappeared after the pressure, I took it as a a scumtell. Cobbler's next post after this is absolutely terrible.

Thought I might look through Xalxe's posts looking for clues as to who his partner is and came up with this doozy (bold mine):

Oh no, I've been caught. Whatever shall I do.

(Yes, scum)

Completely un-fucking-necessary and he's trying to hide away a minor scumslip (which I would have ignored, it's usually the mafia, in most games) by mocking us and making bad jokes.

He admitted to being scum earlier, when I voted him and didn't give a reason. Again, completely unnecessary, just trying to make me feel bad or something because I shouldn't vote him.

You keep pushing Mist. Mist hasn't been scummy, only inactive. DonJosh has been far worse. You have a town-read on him, which is fucking broken.

Explain it to me then. Show, don't just tell.

DonJosh is scum? PROVE IT. I have yet to see it. SHOW ME conclusive evidence and we'll talk.

But for now, I'm okay with where my vote is, thought if you want me to move it, I might consider it.

And yes, I AM trying to make you feel bad. You should be ashamed for attempting to kill a townie like me.

Scum don't generally get all aggressive defedning their partners, now do they? They try to keep low about, to not cause a commotion.

Here's a good one too, convincing me more to vote for DonJosh over Cobblerfone, from a confirmed townie who's played an excellent game here.

Yeah. I'm not even fighting against your questions. My point here is that Xalxe or DonJosh are all cuddly together, saying that the other is so awesome, both reading Cobblerfone as Neutral/Null, for instance, when in fact Cobblerfone has been more useful to the town than either one of them.

I've done enough research on my own at this point that I'm willing to hammer DonJosh. However, in the interest of giving town the best possible chance, I want to see DonJosh's defense and his arguments, if any, why Cobbler's really the scum.

Gonna stop doing my own research at this point until I hear back from him.

I just gotta point out that Whisker's post makes me lul, cuz Cobbler's conf-scum from my POV.
Similar reads is not a partner-tell.

[Cobblerfone]

Must've been deleted along with the one about the seer/confscum talk. I've touched it up:

Scumspects: Mist for #101 (mainly the copycat cry of "Whiskers stop vote hopping" rubs me wrong) DonJosh is relatively only leaning scum for previous reasons. Xalxe is getting scummier by the post. Examples of my posts without content please? The only reason I'm not voting you right now is because I'd expect scum acting like you are to be more competent than this. And I don't see a Mist/Xalxe scumteam as likely.

VOTE: Mist

Makes Xalxe seem like his top scumspect, yet votes Mist.

Debunk: Yeah, that's not at all a copycat of one of my arguments against you.

[DonJosh]

Cobbler, what makes you say that?

I'll say at the end of RVS. Now, some questions:

@Whiskers: I briefly read a couple posts of one of the games you were in. You seem to have a delightful posting style. How do you expect to do this game?
@Kondi: I checked a completed newbie game that you replaced in and saw that your very first vote was for scum. Do you expect you'll do as impressively this game?
@Xalxe: I saw on your wiki page that you prefer to be a pro-scum player. What do you like about being scum? Do you feel you do poorly as town?
@Saulres: What is your experience with mafia? Have you played much off-site?
@DonJosh: I remember playing some marathon games with you, but I couldn't find any normal ones to research. How would you describe your play?

@Everyone: What's so bad about Mist?

This post is an example of the two most WIFOMy things scum can do.
1. RQS
2. Pre-game research

Debunk: Look on my wiki for Newbie 1123.

Okay, kondi still hasn't responded. So I'll just say I have a townread on Whiskers and a weaker one on Saulres. Whiskers, because pony asked for my favorite alignment then put some extra thought into it and asked for my favorite role. Saulres because of the L+3 thing and redoing his post.

Random town-reads.

Debunk: Those are not random at all. The reasons are right there.

VOTE: DonJosh

For claiming he's trying out a new playstyle.

Clearly RVS. BUT WAIT...

Actually it was serious. To explain, "trying out a new style" can be an excuse to avoid comparisons to previous town-meta. It's not much, but it's early. With my townread posts I felt we were out of RVS but still in RQS, so... yeah.

...NO! now it's a serious vote.

Debunk: It doesn't say at all that it's random.

UNVOTE:

I just want to hear from DonJosh before Xalxe can quickhammer himself.

Saulres' stalling edged him ahead of DonJosh for me.

Unvoting his scumbuddy before he "quick-hammers himself"???

Yes, he was confirmed scum at that point and could have quickhammered himself to end discussion.

Wait no, I think it was Mist.

Still, Don looks worse.

LOLOLOL

Debunk: LOLOLOL

Those are some lazy-ass comebacks, Cobbler.

[Cobblerfone]

They're lazy comments 'cause they're lazy accusations.

[DonJosh]

Eating supper... More votes on Cobbler while I'm gone... be back in ~1 hr

[DonJosh]

Also, Cobbler has "countered" my ISO, but I'd like to see why

I

am scum. ISO me. I dare you.

[saulres]

Scum don't generally get all aggressive defedning their partners, now do they? They try to keep low about, to not cause a commotion.

WIFOM.

I was going to wait until you came back from dinner, but then you posted this...

Also, Cobbler has "countered" my ISO, but I'd like to see why

I

am scum. ISO me. I dare you.

I did that already.

So did Cobbler.

Plus Whiskers and kondi and mist -- everyone else has a bigger scumread on you, DonJosh.

I'm going to have to make a call at some point and I don't see my getting swayed seriously at this point. I'm ready to make my call, and be either the hero or the goat.

It's nice to be able to use AtE with no concern that I'll be called scum for them

Cobbler, if you're the scum, then good job. And I suggest DonJosh get a less aggressive avatar because there's an emotional part of me responding to his tone of voice and the spastic head.

Vote: DonJosh

[saulres]

My first completed / finished game on the site. Can't wait to see how it turns out!

[DonJosh]

Goddammit, saulres

[DonJosh]

It's my fault, though. I'm pretty terrible at this. GG though, everyone! I had a lot of fun.

[Cobblerfone]

Cobbler, if you're the scum, then good job.

Thanks

Though to be honest, I think Xalxe connecting himself to DonJosh was the more important part. I just had to survive.

[saulres]

As long as there are no hard feelings whatever way it turns out. Which I assume we can't say until the GM has their say, and I wouldn't want to anyway because that takes it away from him.

I did enjoy this game, and wonder if my No Lynch suggestion which Whiskers superbly expanded on serves to somewhat break this setup. Even though we still had decisions to make, it says this setup can be reliably duplicated by starting with two less players, only one scum, and no cop/seer.