For tricking me last time I played with him. For shame!
NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)
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D'oh, forgot about this game all day yesterday.
Some quick comments on all the stuff I missed:
The Hydra debate was pretty null on all sides.
However, Shanba's defense of Hydra looks pretty town (unless Hydra flips scum, of course.) Dropping my random vote now:
unvote:shanba
kondi2424 is probably town. The whole "Let's lynch me to confirm the whole group" thing sounds like newbie town.
It's possible the whole neighborhood is town. Neither of them seem especially scummy to me.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:Meransiel wagon to date that germinated solely based on the role-fishing accusation– Shanba, DH, Kondi, Hydra, Petro
If Meran is Town then at least 1 scum jumped on this easy wagon. Role-fishing is one of the easiest accusations to make that seems like a good scum-tell but rarely is.
Why is that?
Scum have to rolefish. Especially in a large game, the scum need to find the town power roles before the town power find them. It's one of the biggest differences between scum and town, and therefore one of the most useful scum tells there is.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:Yosarian2 wrote:
Why is that?
Scum have to rolefish. Especially in a large game, the scum need to find the town power roles before the town power find them. It's one of the biggest differences between scum and town, and therefore one of the most useful scum tells there is.
Um, whut?
If Meran is Town than jumping on a Role-fishing accusation is a very easy way to drive a mislynch. Do you disagree?
That's a bizzare question, honestly. Why are you assuming Meran is town here?
You basically said "rolefishing isn't a scum tell". I said "Yes, it is." And you responded with a kind of bizarre leap from there to assuming that Meren is town and that everyone who's trying to lynch him is scum trying to get a mislynch.
If you really want an answer to that question, then, uh, if someone is town and does something really, really scummy like rolefishing, then yes, pointing out that they did something really really scummy is a good way to get them lynched. It's also a good way to scumhunt or to try to figure out their alignment.
Also you didn't answer my direct question - who is Scum?
If I knew that, I'd be voting for someone.
I'm considering sheeping PJ onto Meren; only problem is that, other then the role fishing thing (with I really want an explanation from Meren about), I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad.
I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors. If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town, then posts like this:
MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Do you think we should restrict our lynching to those three players to maximize the chances of hitting scum?
make me think that you might be a scum who's trying to chain multiple mislynches off of setup speculation and attempts to outguess the mod. I'm also a little weirded out by how hard you were riding the DH thing. I also don't agree with you that Sensfan trying to pressure Hydra into acting in a way that Sensfan seems to honestly think is more pro-town is a scumtell on Sensfan's part; early on day 1, trying to pressure someone into acting in a more pro-town way is often a good idea.
I'm not really confident about you being scum, because I could see a town thinking in some of the ways you have said so far, but if you could explain yourself a little more, I'd appreciate it.
1. Do you really think Sensfan is scum for trying to use pressure to change Hydra's behavior in a way he thought was more pro-town? Or do you not think that's what sensfan was trying to do? I don't really get your attack here.
2. Do you actually think that chain-lynching the neighbors to find the scum that might or might not be in that group is a good idea?
3. Why are you making such a big deal about DH not getting what was going on? If I went into a neighbor quicktopic and I saw someone saying "hey, guys, you can lynch me, but do so tomorrow" or something, I'd be suspicious of the guy to, until I understood what he was getting at. Is this tied to your "one of the neighbors must be scum" theory?
4. Do you really think that power role fishing isn't a scumtell? Why are you assuming that Meran is town?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:Yos wrote:If you really want an answer to that question, then, uh, if someone is town and does something really, really scummy like rolefishing, then yes, pointing out that they did something really really scummy is a good way to get them lynched. It's also a good way to scumhunt or to try to figure out their alignment.
So if Meran flips Town you are in agreement that at least 1 scum is likely found in that subset of players?
No. That line of Meran's also bothered me, and I'm not surprised it's bothered other people.
Irrespective of Meran's alignment, I don't have a problem with people questioning him or attacking him about that line. Could scum make that argument if they wanted to push the Meran wagon, if Meran is town? Yeah, they could, but I'd also expect to see pro-town people making that argument as well, so the whole thing is pretty null.
I’ll have to review Victorian Vampire Mafia to see if you were so conservative with your vote Day 1 there.
Eh. I'm generally not. It's just that none of the active people seem especially scummy to me, and there isn't anyone I could really call a lurker 72 hours into the game, so I'm kind of at a loss to where to start. I'll hopefully find a good place to put my vote soon.
Yos wrote:I'm considering sheeping PJ onto Meren; only problem is that, other then the role fishing thing (with I really want an explanation from Meren about), I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad.
Hmmm why would you sheep PJ? Is it past history?
Yeah, pretty much. IMHO, PJ is one of the top 5 mafia players of all time, and one of the best scumhunters on the site. And, as you pointed out, I'm not voting anyone right now; I don't really like my vote not doing anything, I like putting it to work.
Yos wrote:I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors. If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town, then posts like this:
Let’s circle back … aside from your reads (and you have specifically said you have solid scum reads) why are you assuming the 3 neighbors are Town? You are doing the exact same thing (making a relational observation that is dependant on unknown information) that I did with Meran’s wagon above that you state is really weird.
That's really not the same thing. In the case of Meran, I'm at the point of thinking "was he rolefishing? Was that a scum gambit on his part?" and you seem to have completely skipped that step and gone right to "who is trying to mislynch him for rolefishing?" That's the thing that feels odd to me.
With the neighbors, the reason I added that line is is because of course if one of them is scum, then attacking the neighbors like that can't be a scum tell. Nonetheless, if they are town, then scum would LOVE to subtly plant the idea "Hey, one of them has to be scum, so let's keep lynching them until we find the scum!" I mean...chaining 3 mislynches in a row like that would put the town pretty far in the hole, don't you think?
To use your phrasing from before, if the neighbors are town, would you agree with me that at least one of the people pushing the "one of the neighbors is scum, let's lynch neighbors" line of reasoning is probably scum?
If it isn’t ok for me to make said relational observations that may be useful later why is it ok for you to do so?
Relational observations are fine. Like I said, though, I don't think yours about Meran is valid, and beyond that, I don't really understand why you're already thinking in terms of "who are the scum trying to mislynch him" when we don't know his alignment and he's only at 4 votes.
Yos wrote:I'm also a little weirded out by how hard you were riding the DH thing.
So it doesn’t strike you as odd at all that DH made the same mistake Kondi did the first time he drew a Neighbor role PM yet it didn’t even cross his mind to question Kondi about his QT post pre-game or look at Kondi’s history as opposed to just voting him right out of the gate?
No, not really. I don't think most people would have jumped to the conclusion that Kondi misunderstood the neighbor role just based on that one post of his, even if they've made that same mistake before.
Yos wrote:1. Do you really think Sensfan is scum for trying to use pressure to change Hydra's behavior in a way he thought was more pro-town? Or do you not think that's what sensfan was trying to do? I don't really get your attack here.
I think he’s scum for the manner in which he is crafting said attack. He’s pre-concluding on scummy behavior that has yet to officially happen as support for his “I’m not moving my vote” statement.
Furthermore focused solely on driving said “Pro-Town” behavior as opposed to scum-hunting. If Hydra behaves scummy (via showing Cognitive Dissonance, which is the thrust of Sens suspicion) then they are scummy for it regardless of whether posts are signed or not. The post signing element is a pointless procedure that doesn’t add ‘Towniness’ to Hydra, IMO.
Eh. Once you start pressuring someone to change their behavior, it usually involves a vote and a lot of bluster. Lines like "I'm not moving my vote until you do" (insert behavior here) are pretty common, as are threats, demands, picking at minor points, and generally a lot of yelling.
I, personally, don't think that the "signing the name" thing is a big deal, but I think that Sensfan DOES honestly believe that it is, and I don't really see a lot of scum motivation behind the hydra vote.
That being said, I'd like to hear more from Sensfan about who he actually thinks is scummy.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Hydra wrote:
...
Then some other players actually came in and said (in as many words) "This is stupid, is null...heck, you're scummy for still pushing it"
What is Sens doing? He's *still* pushing it. Yeah, it's silly, yeah, it's terrible, but he clearly and honestly believes he's right.
...
Sens is mislead tunnel town.
This defense of Sens, from the guy who Sens has been tunneled on all game, really gives me warm and fuzzy and townie vibes about Hydra.
I like the attack against AGM as well. Also, AGM is another one who's trying to chain lynches based on the "1 neighbor is scum" theory, more blatantly then MagnaofIllusion is, and yet he's still voting for Hydra at the same time.
You know, I think I've found a place to put my vote.
Vote:AlmasterGMI want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Meransiel wrote:You don't have to fucking kill somebody to see their alignment.
Not at all what I was saying. Attacking someone/questioning them/ pressuring them/ect. about a scummy action and seeing how they respond is one of the best ways to find out someone's alignment
Your attention span amazes me.
Yes, I saw that. That's not really an explanation, though. Why would one of them being a power role mean that another one had to be scum?
Just as one hypothetical example, I could easily see a mod, say, giving one member of a neighborhood a vig kill, making the other two town, and then sitting back and laughing as the vig kills his two neighbors out of paranoia and mod WIFOM.
Anyway, I just don't see why you made that assumption in the first place.
Yosarian wrote:I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad
What is bad about my request? I see why it is scummy, I called it risky even before stating it, but why is it ANTITOWN. So far you attacked me, not my argument.
Um, because if anyone answered that question, in any way, it hurts the town and helps the scum. The town doesn't want the scum to know who has a power role and who doesn't, because that way, the scum doesn't know who to kill. That's the whole reason that scum rolefish, and the reason that town don't. I didn't think I had to say that, it seemed too obvious.
Yosarian wrote:That's really not the same thing. In the case of Meran, I'm at the point of thinking "was he rolefishing? Was that a scum gambit on his part?" and you seem to have completely skipped that step and gone right to "who is trying to mislynch him for rolefishing?" That's the thing that feels odd to me.
Your logic is astonishing. So I'M scummy because MOI doesn't think I'm scummy. Lol.
hmm? How did you get that from that post? I didn't say anything like that at all; that post doesn't have anything to do with your alignment, only with MoI's.
In fact, when I was attacking MoI for seeming to jump right to the conclusion that you were town and then attacking people for "trying to mislynch you", what I was wondering was if MoI is scum who already knows you're town from his role PM.
And I am still annoyed that the neighborhood roleclaim had no results. I really think it's a decent idea.
I still think it's a really bad idea to get the neighbors to claim if they have any power roles or not. All it does is make things easier for the scum to know who to kill (and/or roleblock, if the scum have roleblockers). Make a case against one of them, or don't, but there's no need for any of them to claim any more then they already had at this point.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Meransiel wrote:
Again, stop generalizing. You are not getting anything new from me on that particular subject. Not because I don't want to give anything new, but because I can't. I made my statement. Live with it or don't live with it. But don't expect any hidden layers of undisclosed logic.
Who said anything about "hidden layers of undisclosed logic"? You are responding, and that's how we can get a read on you. If someone is under zero pressure and nothing they do is questioned or attacked, it's usually a lot harder to tell what their alignment is.
Because a PR sharing all his results with a full-town neighborhood at night just in case he would be dying the night he does it is VERY broken. VERY. I know that works only for investigative roles, protective roles and roleblockers, but...whait, no buts, that's almost all of them!
Um...yes, a cop with neighbors would be crazy strong. That's true if he's in an "all town" neighborhood or not, though; a cop with neighbors would likely investigate them first, and then if one is scum, communicate all his results with whichever one is town.
Oh. Misunderstood.
So you think my alignment must be different from MoI's?
I wouldn't say "must" about almost anything at this point. More that was one hypothesis to explain the rather odd way he seemed to just assume you were town. Nothing solid, but I was hoping he could explain why he seemed to be assuming you were town. I still am, in fact.
Nope.
1. First and foremost, it is more beneficial for scum, at least in Larges, to protect themselves than kill PR. So if we see those PR's not dying, it means either
a. Scum is in the neighborhood and the mafia is trying to hide who said scum actually is by letting the number of neighbors high, for mislynches.
or
b. Said PR's have a higher chance of being scum.
Eh. Possibly, although there's a lot of WIFOM involved. The idea, though, of "let's just have the power roles claim so we get a little bit of dubious WIFOM data from the scum killing the outed power role" seems unwise at best.
And finally, would they all claim VT NOTHING CHANGES.
You kidding? That's a HUGE change that would badly hurt the town. Every VT that's outed dramatically increases the odds of the scum killing the real power roles. (And, no, I don't consider a neighbor with no other power to be a "power role.")
yos wrote:Make a case against one of them, or don't,
That's not the point here. Why, for fuck's sake, should scum be let free from scrutiny just because there's nonon-game specificreason they're scummy, or because they're not giving off scumslips? I am not forced to scumhunt on behavior alone, and sometimes suspicion does not come from the player's mindset itself, but hisslot.
That can be part of your case, if you want. I never said you can't use information about roles or claims or whatever as part of a case. If you think that we should lynch one of the neighbors today, say so, and say why. If enough people agree with you that it looks like he might get lynched, THEN he can claim. There's no reason for him to do so before that point.
Also, why make cases against them, if I DON'T intend them to get lynched until at least 1 night has passed (which my suggestion clearly implies)? It's aberrant.
If you don't intend to get them lynched today, then it's a REALLY bad idea to try to get them to fullclaim today.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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AlmasterGM wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:I like the attack against AGM as well. Also, AGM is another one who's trying to chain lynches based on the "1 neighbor is scum" theory, more blatantly then MagnaofIllusion is, and yet he's still voting for Hydra at the same time.
People keep using this buzzword without any context. I'm not saying, "plow 'em all down" - I'm saying it's a solid, small pool to look for scum in. Example: if you have two competing cop claims, you lynch until you hit the liar. It's easy because you have a small pool of people in which one is probably lying. This is the same thing except it's not as surefire ... but it's still solid. Most neighborhoods include scum, so if one of them is acting scummy, you've got a really high chance of nailing sucm in that tiny pool. There's no reason not to take that.
If we knew that there was a scum in that group, that might not be a bad idea. But we don't.
If there aren't any mafia in the group of neighbors, then I would expect the mafia to be saying exactly what you're saying now, "lynch until you hit the liar". Except if there isn't a liar, that means three successive mislynches, three wasted days.
Basically, if they are all town, I would expect to see scum in the group of people pushing for the successive lynching of them, because if the scum convince the town of that it's such a huge boon to the scumteam.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Yes, if all three Neighbors are Town then if at least one person specifically attempting to start a wagon on one of them solely based on the ‘1 of 3 must be scum’ logic alone they were probably scum.
I disagree that anyone is doing that. AGM would be the closest but I still don't see that.
Let me ask you – why did you immediately jump to the line of thought that all three Neighbors are Town? Aside from lack of scummy posting (which you admit no-one is really doing much of yet via your unwillingness to vote) you seem to be approaching the Neighbor situation in a way that you specifically stated is ‘odd’ regarding my play.
(shrug) I think it's likely they're all town. I don't know exactly how likely, but none of them seem scummy to me, and I don't know if the mod would follow the cliche "one and exactly one neighbor is always scum".
Also, the way people seemed to jump right to the conclusion that one of them must be scum and let's start lynching them bothers me. I know that I, as town, would not jump to that conclusion without some reason, but I also know that I, as scum, would be incredibly tempted to try to subtly plant that idea in the heads of the town if it wasn't actually true. Some risk, but the potential payoff if the town buys that conclusion and it is false is just huge. Basically, any time I see someone make that kind of assumption without a REALLY good reason for thinking that, it sets of warning bells in my head.
Yos wrote:Nothing solid, but I was hoping he could explain why he seemed to be assuming you were town. I still am, in fact.
You are going to be waiting forever then because as I said before I’m not assuming he is Town.
Meh. You poured a lot of thought into that hypothetical situation, though, and made cases on several people off of the attacks on Meran.
Do you think he is probably town, at this point?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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AlmasterGM wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:If we knew that there was a scum in that group, that might not be a bad idea. But we don't.
It's statistically likely.
(shrug) If there's a 50% chance that there's 1 scum in the group of neighbors, and a 50% chance that there are zero scum in the group, then that means that any given neighbor has a 1/6 chance of being scum. Which is significantly lower then a random lynch, which in most games has about a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.
Yosarian2 wrote:If there aren't any mafia in the group of neighbors, then I would expect the mafia to be saying exactly what you're saying now, "lynch until you hit the liar". Except if there isn't a liar, that means three successive mislynches, three wasted days.
That's not my advocacy, BUT let's assume it is and talk for the sake of talking. Suppose there IS a mafia in the group, you would expect the scum to be saying the opposite, wouldn't you?
Possibly. If there was a scum in that group, then the scum probably would be arguing to not lynch the neighbors.
Of course, I never said "don't lynch them", I said "if you think one of them is scum, make a case against that person."
Now which is more statistically likely?
I don't know. Have you done a meta study on recent mafia games with neighbors?
I'll put my head on the line and say that if we get near endgame and all the neighbors have flipped town, you can whip out this conversation and call me scum. Are you going to do the same and say if one of themdoesflip scum, you defended an advocacy that scum would have defended?
If one of them is scum, would scum have come out against blindly lynching neighbors? Possibly, sure. If someone wants to try to use that as an argument against me at some point later in the game, I'm sure they will.
That being said, the way you've argued in favor of lynching neighbors but then never actually voted one doesn't actually look good for you if one of them is scum, either.
By the way, I'm, not "waiting until endgame" to call you scum. I'm calling you scum right now. And it's not just your stance on the neighbors. I also think everything else about your play is scummy, especially the way you still have your vote on Hydra based on a start-of-day-1 mafia theory disagreement about what the proper pro-town way to play a hydra is.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Yet you’ve been attacking both AGM and I for saying “we must lynch from the Neighbors” which neither of us has.
I think I mentioned this before, but what I would most expect the scum to do would be to subtly plant the idea that "one of the neighbors must be scum, let's lynch in that pool until we find them" without really trying to take the lead and forcing the issue themselves, with the inevitable backlash that would come. That is, I would be LESS suspicious of someone who was ACTUALLY arguing that "we must lynch from the neighbors" and backing that up with a full attack on one of the neighbors and a vote. What both you and, to a larger extent, AGM, is doing, is actually scummier then that, because it leaves you both with the "well, I didn't REALLY mean that" escape hatch after the plan goes badly for the town.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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I'm back.
I'm still happy with my vote on AGM. He still really hasn't done anything except vote for Hydra for a weak reason and the scummy neighbors argument he was making.
I know it's hard to get momentum going on a wagon on someone who's not saying anything, but it really shouldn't be. The fact that he hasn't said anything should be another reason to vote him, not a reason to ignore him.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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AlmasterGM wrote:
Yosarian 233 - Without walling...I disagree, and my opinion will be proven correct when one of the neighbors flips scum. And then you will be the scummy one by your own logic ("Scum are pushing neighbor-scum because they know they are all town" --> Scum are pushing all town neighbors because they know one is scum). But for now, I don't care.
The difference is, is that you are jumping to conclusions for no apparent reason, which is scummy since there's a possible scum motive for doing so and no obvious reason a townie would jump to that conclusion, while I am simply not coming to any conclusion on the subject without information.
Anyway, if you're that sure that one of the neighbors is scum, then why aren't you voting any of them, and instead are still keeping on your start of day 1 "hydra should sign his posts" vote?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Hey, just got mod prodded because I forgot to mention my V/LA in this game, going to be on vacation until July 4th.
Still happy with the AGM wagon. This:
AlmasterGM wrote:
Yosarian 233 - Without walling...I disagree, and my opinion will be proven correct when one of the neighbors flips scum. And then you will be the scummy one by your own logic ("Scum are pushing neighbor-scum because they know they are all town" --> Scum are pushing all town neighbors because they know one is scum). But for now, I don't care.
Sounded like he was completly sure that one of the neighbors was scum. I asked him why he wasn't voting any of the neighbors then, and he ignored me. He moved his vote to Snow White, who was also not a neighbor, because of lurking.
He then continues to try to have it both ways with the neighbors:
AlmasterGM wrote:
@MBL #487 - Your entire argument revolves around a false dichotomy. I'm saying there is likely one scum in the neighborhood. I said if I HAD TO CHOOSE, I'd choose Parama. You take this and say "You find Parama scummy and think one of the neighbors is scum BUT WON'T VOTE PARAMA. WHY?!?! SCUMMY!!!!" It isn't that black and white. Like I specifically stated, the Parama read was a forced offering because someone asked. I have statedrepeatedlythat I am not voting for a neighbor because I don't know which one I want to vote for yet. I have also stated repeatedly that I don't want to justkill them all, I want to use it as a metric to increase our chances of finding scum if someone from that pool is acting scummy.
He's SURE one of the neighbors is scum, and is trying to scare me off of defending them because I'll look bad later when his opinion is proven correct "when one of the neighbors flips scum". No if, no hesitation; he sounded complety sure. He even has an opinion on which neighbor is the scummiest. And yet, he won't vote for him.
If one of the neighbors is scum, AGM is probably scum trying to distance. If all of the neighbors are town, then he's probably trying to chain mislynches. Either way, the combination of confidence in the scummyness of the neighbors and the refusal to vote for them makes no sense if AGM is town.
On a side note, Parama's most recent posts are somewhere between useless and terrible. Post better, give better answers to PJ's questions. Not really happy with you right now.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Meransiel wrote:Guys, I will put a very simple question.
Consider I am not an idiot. Why would I want the neighbors to out their PRs day 1?
Please answer this, it is important.
Meransiel wrote:mastin2 wrote:Meransiel, you're town.
No need to explain yourself further.
I NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF FURTHER. NOW ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!
Uh, ok.
One obvious possibility for someone to ask that question would be if you are scum, trying to figure out who to kill. It's also possible that you really believed what you said, and really thought that one of the neighbors was going to claim a power role and that would somehow prove that one of the other neighbors must be scum, but that never really made a lot of sense to me. I could think of other possible motivations, but rather then speculate, you could just tell us.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Parama looks pretty bad to me right now. His attempted nitpicking of Mastin's case is a pretty sad defense, and he doesn't seem at all interested in trying to find scum. Of course Mastin wasn't saying that "DH and Prama know each other's alignment".
In any case, Parama, I have no idea who, if anyone, you suspect right now. At the end of the day yesterday, your only suspect seemed to be MoI, who is now known to be town, and you haven't done any scumhunting today at all, other then the mastin vote.
Vote:Parama
On a side note, PJ's posts basically just looks like "we should kill people in the group of unconfirmds" Which, duh, is of course what we're going to do. DH's reaction to that seems a little extreme.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:FoS: Yosarian2. Long post ahead.
1.)I was not particularly impressed with your “scum have to rolefish” argument against Meransiel/MagnaofIllusion on Day One. I agree Meransiel’s role-fishing wasbad(i.e.,antitown), and it was enough reason for me to at least pressure him.
But you seemed to go so far as to say it is always a scum tell. Despite the fact that Meransiel was not being the least bit subtle about it. Even to me, it was a pretty weak case for rolefishing. It’s hard to put this in the right words, but essentially: it feels like you took an exceedingly easy-to-defend policy (rolefishing is bad), and that you nevertheless took ittoo farand without good reason. I’m not completely sure I believe you would buy what you’re selling. Meransiel's rolefishing was so very blatant that I'm still surprised you never seemed to acknowledge it over your extended analysis on the subject.
Eh? Of course it was a fairly weak example of rolefishing. You'll notice I never voted meransiel over that, even though I wasn't voting anyone at all at the time, which I obviously would have if I thought it was a strong scumtell.
What I was really trying to get at was an explanation from MoI about his odd post there. His sentence, which was:
MoI wrote:Role-fishing is one of the easiest accusations to make that seems like a good scum-tell but rarely is
was just bizarre. Rolefishing is one of the most reliable scumtells there is, because scum have to rolefish.
What I was trying to get out of him was exact ally what you just said: I wanted to know if he was defending Meransiel was because he thought it wasn't a good example of rolefishing, or because he actually believed rolefishing wasn't a scum tell for some reason, or that he had a pro-town read on him from somewhere else; or, if he was doing what he was doing for a more scummy reason. MoI's post there seemed off to me, so I poked at it to try to get him to explain himself.
2.)I was similarly not impressed when you had a strange argument with MagnaofIllusion about whether he was assuming Meransiel was Town. I never once got the impression that MagnaofIllusion assumed any such thing. MagnaofIllusion's statement:
MagnaofIllusion wrote:IfMeran is Town then at least 1 scum jumped on this easy wagon. Role-fishing is one of the easiest accusations to make that seems like a good scum-tell but rarely is.
…. quite clearly assumes no such thing. Which is why it contains the word “if.” In fact, I really can’t differentiate it from your first substance of the game:
Yosarian2, Post 164 wrote: However, Shanba's defense of Hydra looks pretty town (unless Hydra flips scum, of course.)
Flip these words around, and you have “ifHydra flips scum, then Shanba does not look pretty Town.” Playing mafia isall about“if X, then Y,” even if not used in those exact words. And furthermore, your attack on MagnaofIllusion for that statement has continually felt off since in theexact same post, you said the following:
Yosarian2, Post 170 wrote:I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors.If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town, then posts like [insert MagnaofIllusion post] make me think that you might be a scum who's trying to chain multiple mislynches off of setup speculation and attempts to outguess the mod.
For the record, I do not buy into your “explanation” from Post 175, which attempted to differentiate MagnaofIllusion's use of the word "if" from yours. It looks to me like you were doing the exact same thing MagnaofIllusion was doing.
Meh. There's nothing inherently wrong with a conditional statement. But the way MoI was going about that was just weird. There's nothing wrong with say "A's attack on B is scummy, unless B is scum" when the attack *itself* seems scummy. But Shanba's attack on Meran didn't seem at all scummy; in fact, it made perfect sense to me at the time.
Again, what I was *expecting* to happen was something like MoI saying "I was thinking Mere was probably town because of" (whatever). Or "I think that attack on Meren was bad because" (whatever). I just wanted him to explain his logic. Because without some kind of reason that either about the attack being scummy or about the person being attacked seeming town, "X is bad for attacking Y if Y is town" is basically a meaningless sentence.
Both of those examples of mine were attacks that I specifically disliked for a specific reason.
3.)Although you admittedly asked why you would “sheep” my vote and vote for Meransiel, your answer (that I’m one of the “top five” players on the site) continually feels to me like it is a bit gratuitous.
(shrug) I made an offhand comment about how I'd normally like to sheep on you, but I couldn't here because I didn't agree with you. Someone asked, so I answered. Sorry if compliments make you uncomfortable, heh.
4.)I didn’t like your first response to Meransiel in Post 188. Essentially, Meransiel was continually being asked to explain something, so he eventually said that he could not explain it any further, and that people should not expect “hidden layers of undisclosed logic.”
Andyourresponse was basically, “who said anything about hidden layers of undisclosed logic?” That has always struck me as a bad a response.Meransielsaid something about hidden layers of undisclosed logic. I make those kinds of statements all the time when I've explained myself and somebody asks formoreexplanation.
Did you actually read the conversation in context? This seems like an odd comment on your part.
I said that you attack someone so you an figure out their alignment. He said "You don't have to lynch someone to figure out their alignment." I explained that that wasn't what I meant, that how people respond to being attacked, how they react when they're pressured, can give you a good read on their alignment. He then went into this weird tangent about "hidden layers of undisclosed logic", which didn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about.
5.)This statement rubs me the wrong way:
Yosarian2, Post 220 wrote: Also, the way people seemed to jump right to the conclusion that one of them must be scum and let's start lynching them bothers me.I know that I, as town, would not jump to that conclusion without some reason, but I also know that I, as scum, would be incredibly tempted to try to subtly plant that idea in the heads of the town if it wasn't actually true.
Huh?
Isn't that how everyone scumhunts, is you figure out what you would do as town and what you would be tempted to do as scum in any given situation?
6.)I think you might have been fudging statistics with this gem:
Yosarian2, Post 233 wrote:(shrug) If there's a 50% chance that there's 1 scum in the group of neighbors, and a 50% chance that there are zero scum in the group, then that means that any given neighbor has a 1/6 chance of being scum. Which is significantly lower then a random lynch, which in most games has about a 1/4 chance of hitting scum.
This is just dumb, but I didn’t think it was worth belaboring the point on Day One. In my opinion, the Neighbors arejust as likely to be scum as anybody else. So trying to use math to say that lynching a neighbor is “significantly lower than a random lynch” is just an absurd conclusion to come to.
I don't think that, in a vacuum, a neighbor is as likely scum as anyone else, because of the reason I gave. That being said, when a neighbor is acting scummy, you lynch them for acting scummy. You just don't lynch them for being a neighbor, though.
7.)Finally, I wasnotimpressed with your response to Meransiel asking people to answer his question about why he would want the neighbors to fully claim:
Yosarian2, Post 552 wrote:One obvious possibility for someone to ask that question would be if you are scum, trying to figure out who to kill. It's also possible that you really believed what you said, and really thought that one of the neighbors was going to claim a power role and that would somehow prove that one of the other neighbors must be scum, but that never really made a lot of sense to me.I could think of other possible motivations, but rather then speculate, you could just tell us.
Basically, you take the opportunity to make a backhanded comment that Meransiel was scummy. More importantly, you said you werenot going to speculate. But then you IMMEDIATELY POST THIS:
Yosarian2, Post 553 wrote: Actually, another motivation just occurred to me. If you're claiming you have some kind of role info, Mer, I'm fine with having the neighbors fullclaim first before you get into any specifics.
Multiple problems with this post. FIRST, you just speculated. After you said you wouldn’t speculate.
And SECOND – and perhaps most ironically – you basically ROLEFISHED from Meransiel. Which is pretty damned funny since you spent practically all of Day One arguing how rolefishing is scummy.
Wrong on both counts.
The first response was me answering his question directly, to see where he was going with this. So of course I was going to mention both the possible scum motivation, and the possible town motivation behind his action. I had already talked about that yesterday.
What I realized right after I hit sumbit was that the reason Meran was asking that question was that he was about to claim tracker, or something like it. I decided I wanted the neighbors to claim after they knew he was the tracker, but *BEFORE THEY KNEW WHO HE HAD TRACKED.* I wasn't rolefishing, i was trying to *DELAY* Meran claiming the rest of his role. I wish he had listened to me there; if they had claimed before Meran claimed his action last night, they might would have been scared into being honest, and I would have loved to hear what Parama and DH's response would have been (especially if it was going to be "well, I targeted the guy who died last night, but I did so because..." (insert weak excuse here). )
Fixed a tag. -AmrunLast edited by Amrun on Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:
Firstof all, this is fishing for whether Meransiel has "some kind of role info" to begin with. Because no matter what answer Meransiel gives you, you learn something about his role. What if Meransiel was actually a Townie? Then his response of "no" would have told you something. In other words, that in itself was fishing for whether Meransiel had information pertaining to the neighbors. The simple question of asking whether somebody has role information is the verydefinitionof fishing.
It was obvious that Meran was about to claim to have an information role. Once I thought about what he was doing, I could see that he was very clearly setting up for that. I mean, come on. I was just trying to say that if he did have information about the neighbors, that they should claim first, before he does.
Second, you advocated havingallof the Neighbors claim if Meransiel had information. Emphasis onallthe Neighbors. As to opposed to, you know, theparticularNeighbor Meransielmighthave had information about.
YES. Of course I was. Get the neighbors to claim in a situation where they know that someone may or may not have tracked one of them. They'll either be forced to tell the truth, or to lie and risk being caught.
If we had done that, then I think we would know right now who, if any, of the neighbors are scum or SK who made a kill last night,no matter if Meran had targeted them or not. Considering that two of the neighbors are the town's #1 and #2 suspects (Para and DH), this would be very much worth the cost.
But all of that was contingent on Meran saying that he wanted them to for a role-based reason.
Third,afterall the Neighbors full-claimed, you were advocating that Meransiel should claim directly afterwards.
If he was going to demand that multiple people claim because of his role-based information, which I thought he was about to do, then of course he should claim afterwards. Once you've done that, you're basically claimed anyway.
So in other words, if Meransiel did not have information, you would narrow down his role -- because you fished.
Pfft. He would only have to respond to that post of mine at all if he was trying to demand that the neighbors claim. If that wasn't what he was doing, then he didn't have to share any information at all.
And if he did have information, you were essentially advocating thatfour playersrole-claim. If that's not fishing, then I apparently don't know what is.
Yes, if he had information about one of the neighbors, then yes, having all the neighbors claim before they knew which of them he had information on would have been pro-town.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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:eyebrow:
What the hell is wrong with expecting all the neighbors to claim if a tracker tracked one of them doing something suspicious? You do know that they're most likely either scum or vanilla, right? I can't remember ever seeing a neighbor with a town power role in a normal game.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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(sigh) What do you expect from me, consistency or something?
I never really attacked Meran directly for rolefishing, nor did I vote for him; I was more trying to get a read on MoI then anything, and I ended up not voting for him either. Still, "I've never seen a neighbor with a power role in a normal game" doesn't mean that you should go and ask people if they have power roles or not without a reason; just because something is unlikely, doesn't mean it's impossible; and if it was impossible then asking about it still doesn't make any sense. Plus, I was kind of hoping that the scum wouldn't realize how unlikely it was for the neighbors to be non-vanilla in a normal game, and trying to give the impression that it was more likely then it really was to hopefully throw the scum off and keep our real power roles safer.
Meran being a tracker changes everything, though. Even a chance at getting real role information from a tracker, and getting the best possible value out of that information, totally overrides wildly unlikely scenarios like "what if one of the neighbors is also a doctor". If I had realized on day 1 that Meran was asking for the neighbors to claim because of a role-based reason on his part, I would have handled that very differently.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MrBuddyLee wrote:petroleumjelly wrote:@MrBuddyLee, I want your opinion on Yosarian2.
Possible scum. He settled for an AGM vote all day on the "one neighbor is scum chain lynch" reasoning, and was more theory than scumhunting D1. Didn't really assess Parama, saporo, Shanba, Hrez, PJ or me D1. Expressed willingness to sheep you on to Meransiel despite not really finding Meransiel scummy, which was odd.
He was fairly quick to clear kondi and Sens, which is somewhat townish behavior if kondi's town.
I didn't "settle" for a AGM vote, I was really confident he was scum. His play didn't make sense as town. It wasn't just the "one neighbor is scum chain lynch" thing, it was that he was making that argument and trying to convince the town of it, and then refusing to follow through and then actually make a case on a neighbor, or even vote one. Felt like he was trying to plant a bad idea in the hopes someone else would do it. His responses to being attacked also seemed pretty bad. Yeah, it turns out I was wrong about AGM, but I still can't see where I messed up in my logic or where I should have gotten a town read off of him.
I did decide Parama was acting scummy towards the end of the day, and I said so. I also did specifically say that I thought Shanba was town early in the day.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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mastin2 wrote:Back, ish. Skimmed the walls, and say that Yosarian2 definitely came out of the losing end in the argument.
No, I didn't. Or if it did, it doesn't matter because everyone should have realized that PJ's theory that I had some kind of scum motive here is clearly wrong. It should be obvious what I was trying to do yesterday, now that I've explained it.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:Oh oh oh, I wish I had thought of this response the other day. I'm gonna do it anyways:
Yosarian2, Post 713 wrote:(sigh) What do you expect from me, consistency or something?
No, Mr. Yos.
I expect you todie.
You know, if you thought the neighbors were TOWN, I could MAYBE see you running with this "Yos was trying to role-fish the neighbors" argument.
But:
petroleumjelly wrote:FoS: DemonHyrbid, in fact. Looks to me like somebody is getting skittish by seeing himself, and potentially all of his partners, on a list.
petroleumjelly wrote:Hi, DemonHybrid.
1.)I am not about to include myself in a list of possible scum. Especially whenmyexplicitly says "here are the peopleIwill be focusing on." And naturally, I would suggest everybody else focus on those same people.
2.)I play realistically. Do I think Meransielcouldbe scum? Sure. As I explained earlier, I've played in thisexactsituation as a scum tracker before. But do I think it's currently the case? No. Meransiel is probably Town. A scum tracker, unless they had a death wish, probably wouldn't out themselves after they were just alerted to -- ding ding ding-- the presence of aSerial Killerwho would almost certainly love to take out a tracker.
Similarly, a claimed Vigilante is in the same boat. Even if Iecerint is scum, so what? He claimed Vigilante. Now heHASto play like one or get lynched.
Furthermore, I didn't go so far as to call kondi2424 Town. At best, I said it was "likely." So to say I am not "considering" whether there are fake-claims is just stupid. There are times to be paranoid, and times not to be paranoid.
Day Two isnotthe time to start being paranoid. That comes later in the game if somebody who seems to be Town is suddenly and persistently alive. So for now, yes: I am most assuredly going to focus my efforts on the nine players I just listed out.
3.)Your "lining up lynches" argument is weak. I seem to recall the same accusations were made against AlmasterGM and MagnaofIllusion. Hey, guess what? They were both Town.
But even if they were scum, it wouldn't matter. Because here's what does matter:
I think every single scum is in that group of nine players. And so it only follows that I want as many people from that group as dead as possible.
petroleumjelly wrote:Vote: DemonHybrid. Boom.
And then, in response to Parama getting a wagon:
petroleumjelly wrote:Hot damn, you're right!
Unvote: DemonHybrid, Vote: Parama.
So, before you got onto this weird attack on me, your main suspects were apparently 2 of the neighbors. (Parama was also your main suspect at the end of day 1).
And yet, even though they're your main suspects, you're so worried about protecting whatever hypothetical power roles the neighbors might have that you think it's bad to want them to claim, even when a *TRACKER* implies he wants them to claim?
Really having trouble buying this, PJ.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:
Yep, I think the Neighbors are suspicious. But that does not preclude you from being scum in the slightest. And I'm not calling you scum for rolefishing atthe neighborsin particular, which is what you seem to be trying to make this argument about.
That's not what you were saying before I called you out on it, PJ. You were talking at LEAST as much about the neighbors as about Meran.
More importantly, Meran was *in the process of claiming tacker*, and fairly obviously so. Did you read his posts?
Meransiel wrote:Guys, I will put a very simple question.
Consider I am not an idiot. Why would I want the neighbors to out their PRs day 1?
Please answer this, it is important.
Meransiel wrote:mastin2 wrote:Meransiel, you're town.
No need to explain yourself further.
I NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF FURTHER. NOW ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!
If you read these posts, and think about why he would make them, I'm sure you'll realize he was pretty clearly about to claim info role in his next post.
The idea that I would "rolefish" from someone *who was obviously in the process of claiming* is so completely illogical, it doesn't even make sense. If I wanted to Meran to fullclaim right away, all I would have had to do is *not post*.
Also, since you've brought it up more than once in your defense: the fact that you didn't actually vote Meransieldoes notcut in your favor. Essentially, all that means you were willing to add reasons for voting Meransiel without actually connecting yourself to his wagon on Day One with a vote -- in other words, making the wagon far more difficult to attribute to you unless somebody actually bothers to read the game as opposed to relying on vote counts (asfartoo many players are prone to do).
I didn't join your Meransiel wagon BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK HE WAS SCUMMY. I was pretty clear about that subject on day 1, too. I specifically said the rolefishing looked bad, but otherwise, he didn't look scummy, so I didn't want to vote for him, not even to sheep on you.
Yes, the rolefishing was bad, and yes, when Meransiel asked me about that I explained why it was bad. But I didn't think he was otherwise scummy, and i never supported his wagon.
And finally, as you might have noticed, I have a list ofnineplayers I am willing to lynch today.
There may be nine players you want to lynch today; personally, I would rather lynch scum today.
How about you try reading the thread and scumhunting?
Hmm. I start asking you questions, and suddenly I'm "not scumhunting", huh? Interesting.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:*chin on hands*
Yes, Yosarian2, the fact that you rolefished the Neighbors is a part of my argument. But it is nowhere near the main point. I don't think fishing against them is particularly scummy (although I do think it is antitown). And so what concerned me far more was how you spent so much time arguing against fishing the Neighbors on Day One, and how you were suddenly very willing to fish against them on Day Two.
(shrug) Early day 1, I thought the neighbors were probably all town, and I thought Meran was asking for their roles for no good reason. Your yourself even called that "bad" and "anti-town".
Then at the end of day 1, Parama started acting incredibly scummy and useless and refusing to answer questions, DH started acting weird, and then suddenly Meran is (I thought) iimpying that he was a role that he has information about the neighbors and might catch them in a lie if they claim.
Do you really not see how that completely changes things? Don't you understand how incredibly useful it would have been to get the scummy looking neighbors to claim who they targeted *in a situation where it looked like a tracker had targeted one of them*? You're making one of those terrible "you're being inconsistent, because you said you wanted to go INTO your house when it was raining outside, but said you wanted to LEAVE your house when your house was on fire" arguments that ignores all context.
Also, "scumhunting" against the one person in the game who has bothered to vote you with a serious vote is not footing the bill.
So, what, you voted me for, so now I'm not allowed to wonder about your alignment and ask you questions? That's not exactly how it works, PJ. Especially when you honestly seem to be being deliberately obtuse here when I've already explained myself several times, and when you briefly get on the wagon of my main suspect without really giving a reason for it, and then immedatly find an excuse to jump off of it, you move way up my suspect list. Which sucks, I was really hoping you were going to be town this game.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MrBuddyLee wrote:
@Yos, your D1 words don't match up with your D2 words and actions.
Today, you posited:
Yos, D2 wrote:at the end of day 1, Parama started acting incredibly scummy
But yesterday (D1), when he was posting, you said:
Yos, D1 wrote:On a side note, Parama's most recent posts are somewhere between useless and terrible. Post better, give better answers to PJ's questions.
Which sounds more like you think he's shitty town.
Hmm? No, I meant what I said; that his posting was really bad, and that he had to start answering questions. In a normal situation, that post would have ended with either a vote on Para or at least a threat of one, but I was pretty confident at the time that AlmasterGM was scum and didn't want to derail that wagon that close to the end of the day.
Today, you started the day with no vote for some reason. Then, the mastin thing hit and cleared up. You were active on the site Thursday night but didn't register a vote. Only after three people hopped the Parama wagon did you register your displeasure with him, your first real attack upon him, and your first vote of the day. Why the reticence?
Hmm? My third post of the day, I voted Parama. Before that, I had already said that I would support Meran if he wanted the neighbors to claim, and a big part of the reason for that.
You really can't use "you were on this site" as an argument. I'm currently in 4 games, I don't post in (or even read) all 4 of them every single time I log onto the site.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Yeah, parama is pretty clearly scum here. The "catch up post" is weak and OMGUSy. Also, attacking PJ because
PJ 337 – Thanks for blatantly bandwagoning. Your reason for voting me, at that point in time, was akin to “I don’t think he adequately answered questions posed to him” even though my answers to everything were more than sufficient. +1.
Is pretty blatently absurd. You never refused to answer questions, huh? Then what was this?
Parama wrote:1. dealwithit
2. dealwithit
3. dealwithit
dealwithit
PJ, I don't give a damn about what you want.
Also, +1 awesome points to Mastin for the best musical vote I've seen in a while.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Shanba wrote:
Yos: Do you think PJ is scum?
Eh. I haven't felt confident in my ability to read PJ since Kingmaker II.
At one point, I really didn't like his attack on me, but looking at it now, it could very well have been what he said, an attempt to shake up the game and look elsewhere. Now that I can look at it dispassionately, I have to say that that coming after me like that when I don't have any other votes on me doesn't really look scummy; even though I dislike his reasons for voting me, I can't really attribute a scum motivation for his actions.
So, if I had to guess right now...I'd prrrroooobbbalby say PJ is probably leaning town. Ish. I think. I'm fairly paranoid about him for pretty much irrational reasons, though.
Everyone - thoughts on saporovirus please
SV seems town-ish to me right now. Stuff like where on day 1 she questioned DH about the Kondi thing, and when he answered, she unvoted him based on his answers feels honestly town to me.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:Ninja-post:
Hey Yosarian2, I asked you a rather important question quite a while ago. I would like it answered.
petroleumjelly, Post 752 wrote:Quick experiment:
Yos, besides me and Parama (who I am assuming you find scummy since that is where your vote is), who do you think is scummy?
Yeah, I've been meaning to do a full re-read and try to get reads on more people, just haven't had time. Let me get that going.
My notes after a re-read:
1. DemonHybrid: This early post of DemonHydra bugs the heck out of me:
DemonHybrid wrote:Unvote, Vote: Meransiel
Not only has he been scummy, but if he flips scum, the 3 of us neighbors can rest easy knowing that we're near-confirmed town.
2. Pine* earworm* Ythan : Some of Earworm’s posts probably make more sense coming from town then from scum. This post, especially, tastes like town:
earworm wrote:MrBuddyLee wrote:unvote, vote: Parama
saporovirus wrote:asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.
@Meransiel: Can you please clarify your current stances on Parama and DH?
@Parama: What do you think of Meransiel?
*Looks at your last vote.*
*Looks for Sensfan posts between this post and your last vote.*
*Looks for Parama posts between this post and your last vote.*
*sigh*
But, godammit you are town aren't you? :/
Could you at leastattemptto explain your votes, if only for my sanity?
3. mastin2 Snow White** Confirmed town Sadly, I don’t think the day 2 Mastin wagon tells us anything, because of that bad lying about his role gambit Mastin attempted; after that, I’d expect ‘logical scumhunter’ people like PJ to vote Mastin no matter what his alignment was.
4. Iecerint: Votes Hreze, says he dislikes the current wagons, says he doesn’t think Meran is scum. Defends Meran later. Moves his vote over to DH in 319, has townreads on sapo, PBuG. Icerint has generally been quiet, but I get pretty good vibes from him.
5. saporovirus: Not really a fan of her day 1 play. I like that she defended me against PJ on day 2, heh. (Ok, it's hard for me to be unbiased about this, but that defensive posts feels town-ish to me).
6. Parama* : Dislike his MoI vote in post 262. Refuses to answer questions. Is using the “I haven’t read the game” defense for way too long. His “summery” post was pretty terrible. Scummy.
8. CrashTextDummie Hrezs* Dislike Hreze’s post #80, where Meransiel complains that the hydra discussion is useless and Hreze votes him for “squelching discussion”. Lame. Generally lurked for most of the day.
10. Meransiel Tracker, probably town. Looks generally town for most of day 1 (especally now that that demand for the neighbors to claim makes more sense)
11. MrBuddyLee** No real problems with his play. The “ask everyone questions and don’t specify anything for a long time” thing is pretty much his normal normal meta these days, and his day 2 posting feels like decent scumhunting to me. Of course, MBL is pretty much always unreadable, so take that with a grain of salt.
12. petroleumjelly PJ’s stance on AGM is kind of weird yesterday. First, he attacks Meran with the “you’re trying to plant the idea that one of the neighbors is scum” argument, but calls AGM town while he’s doing the same thing. He never explains his AGM read, and eventually “reatracts” his town read on AGM, but never really comments on him otherwise. PJ, can you remember what post or posts by AGM gave you a town vibe early in the day, and why you changed your mind later?
After Meran makes a bunch of posts that are pretty obvtown IMHO (refusal to get on the Kondi wagon without a full explination first, comment that Kondi townslipped, which he stuck to even under attack, calls me a “misguided townie” in response to me attacking him), PJ says this:
petroleumjelly wrote:1.)Meransiel, if you're going to claim scum, please just do it now and save us some time. There's no shame in it -- not every game is gonna be your game. And this one certainly isn't shaping up to be yours.
Ehhh. Really don’t get it.
14. Shanba*: No real problem with his play. Defense of Hydra looks town-ish.
16. Hydra (Thor655 + Magister Ludi)*: No real read on them yet. Most of the scumhunting they’ve done seems plausible enough.
18. ToastyToast kondi2424** Probably town, based on the neighbors town slip thing
Summary:
Town: Mastin2, Meransiel
Probably town: Toastytoast
Leaning town: Pine, Iecerint, Shanba
Null: Hydra, MBL, saporovirus
Leaning scummy: CrashTextDummies, DemonHybrid (note: DH is probably town if para is scum, although mastin’s theory is cute), petroleumjelly
Scum: ParamaI want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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mastin2 wrote:
Are all things which make me lean scum on Yosarian2. Emphasis are key words which I particularly focused on, but not necessarily the only thing which makes those sentences scummy.
...so, when i analyze people, and either read them as town or scum, when I either get good or bad vibes from them, when a certain posts strikes me as off...that makes you lean scum on me?
What, you don't like it when I scumhunt or something? I don't understand.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Iecerint wrote:I agree with you on Yos. I think his attitude toward me is particularly bizarre; it gives the impression that he's missed some pretty salient events this game, even though his wallposts give the impression that he's heavily involved.
What are you saying I missed?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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petroleumjelly wrote:Quick check-in.
Yosarian2, my Townread on AlmasterGM was pretty much prompted by his posts. Go and isolate his posts: it looked to me like he was one of the only players who was actually trying to scumhunt in earnest. He may not have made the post points, but he was catching little nuances and was clearly reading posts over very carefully. He was actually pretty much the only player I was comfortable calling Town (except formaybekondi2424), but when he suddenly went off the deep end and attacked Snow White, it started to look like he was getting fidgety under pressure and so I lost my confidence in my initial townread of him. Furthermore, AlmasterGM was not trying to "subtly" suggest that one of the Neighbors was scum; his posts were quite direct about it, unlike Meransiel's Post 90 that I've continually referenced.
</3 to CrashTextDummie for not getting an immediate Townread on me.
If I missed anything, let me know.
Ok, that makes some sense. I really shouldn't hold you getting a correct town read against you, but IGMEOY.
How about the post I where quoted you acting like Meran was being incredibly obvious scum, in a situation where that didn't really fit at all? Can you explain that?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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About Shanba?
Shanba does need to post more, but a number of his posts look pro-town to me.
Quick summery of shanba's posting:
ISO Post 0: opposes the hydra wagon. Apparent pro-town motives for this. Votes Sensfan as part of this, but drops the vote soon after.
Post 1: Opposes the "let's outguess the mod and assume one of the neighbors is scum" theory. Vote meransiel for a combination of this and rolefishing. At this point in the game, this post makes a lot of sense to me as coming from a town perspective; I was thinking pretty much the same thing.
Post 2: Continues the same train of thought
Post 7, I like a lot, since Shanba basically calls himself out for lurking, and asks why he's not being attacked:
Shanba wrote:MagnaofIllusion wrote:Shanba wrote:Your list of lurkers bemuses me. What metric are you using to judge a lurker?
The title is lurkers / underperformers. My metric is my personal judgement of those who aren't contributing to the game in a meaningful way.
Do you have a problem with that?
No, not necessarily, but this is mafia, and inconsistencies bother me. Why are MBL and hrezs in particular on the list when me and PBuG are not?
Shanba later basically defends PJ against me, and questions me about my PJ read, which is fair, and not what I would expect Shanba to do hereif he was scum. He's also still defending the neighbors as likely both town, which is interesting.
For the most part, Shanba needs to post more, but his play in general seems pretty townieish to me. I will say that if parama flips scum, I'll probably have to take a second look at Shanba for defending him, but...meh, even in that case, I'm not really seeing Shanba as scum here.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Hydra wrote:
Yos, I know its rather minor, but why do you have Meransiel listed as tracker :
, but iecerint listed as nothing:yos3 wrote:Meransiel Trackeryos2 wrote:Iecerint:
I already mentioned this, but yeah, I forgot to jot down Iecerint's roleclaim in that post. I wasn't thinking about it when I was re-reading day 1, and I forgot to add it later. (shrug) Dosn't really matter, I thought he was town anyway.
Yos4!?!? wrote:14. Shanba*: No real problem with his play.
I know you're a big fan of hunting lurkers, why is it that you don't seem to have a problem with the minamilist style of posting Shanba is taking here, and why does this actually make him seem town to you? I'm not feeling the warm cozy glow.
Eh. I normally do like hunting lurkers, but I think Shanba is likely to be town here. I just explained my town read on him a few posts ago.
On a side note, it's kind of bizzare for people to attack me for using "weasel words" or whatever you want to call it in my summery. I went through and gave my opinion on ever player in the game. Of COURSE I'm going to be wishy washy or only have weak reads on a lot of them; if someone has a strong read on every player in the game on day 2, they're probably scum.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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CrashTextDummie wrote:
Yos2 to AGM in #394 wrote:The difference is, is that you are jumping to conclusions for no apparent reason, which is scummy since there's a possible scum motive for doing so and no obvious reason a townie would jump to that conclusion, while I am simply not coming to any conclusion on the subject without information.
His whole argument against AGM went roughly like this:
1. "I think it's likely the whole neighborhood is town since none of them seem suspicious to me."
2. "Scum are therefore likely to suggest there is one scum in the neighborhood."
3. "AGM is therefore scum."
It'sallbased on Yos2 jumping to conclusions. His attack feels very disingenuous.
No, it's not.
A: I think that the stance AGM was taking was scummy, in and of itself. I explained this in great detail.
B: Even if I'm wrong about A, or if if AGM actually believed what he was saying, then if he believed that the right thing to do is to lynch a neighbor, he should have actually acted on it. I still don't get why he was so gung-ho to lynch a neighbor in theory, but never even seemed to seriously consider voting any of the neighbors for any reason in reality.
There isn't any "jumping to conclusions" in my argument at all, CTD. Yes, i was wrong about AGM, and that sucks. Pro-town people are wrong about 50%-70% of the time on day 1, learn to deal with the fact.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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mastin2 wrote:Still have slacked off on the re-read, but if I were to go off of late-game interactions,
^This strengthens the scumteam I proposed.Yosarian2 wrote:Eh. I normally do like hunting lurkers, but I think Shanba is likely to be town here.
The fact that I think Shanba is town proves we're scum together? Is that seriously what you're going with here?
You know, you don't have to try to prove the theory that being confirmed town makes your play worse, mastin.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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mastin2 wrote:...Yeah...
I'm not sold on Shanba, yet. (Heavily, HEAVILY leaning towards it, of course.)
But Yos?
Sealing the deal with every post he makes.
Do you have an actual case, or are you just going to use your confirmed town status to lead the entire town in totally the wrong direction by just announcing over and over again that certain people are scum when you're pretty clearly wrong about everything?
The only reason you EVER gave for suspecting me was the argument with PJ, and even PJ dropped that case ages ago, because he was logically shown to be wrong.
Just because you're confirmed town and aren't going to get lynched, mastin, doesn't mean you should play like crap.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MrBuddyLee wrote:Yosarian2 wrote:Do you have an actual case, or are you just going to use your confirmed town status to lead the entire town in totally the wrong direction by just announcing over and over again that certain people are scum when you're pretty clearly wrong about everything?
Can you please be more specific about the "everything" mastin's wrong about?
Not that list, but this thing he's been pushing for his last several posts, with no logic and absolutely no reason behind it, is pretty terrible:
Mastin2 wrote:
Parama-Sapo-Yos2-Shanba just seems so...right.
As a scumteam.
Out of those 4, the only one who seems likely to be scum is Parama. I'm town, shanba's probably town, and sapo is likely to be town. None of the connections make any sense either; the closest thing he's come to a reason is the "Yos is calling shanba town so they're probably scum together" argument, which is just a bad argument on every possible level. And none of his links really make sense at all. And yet people are taking his non-case seriously because he's a confirmed townie. I really shouldn't lose my temper here, it doesn't help anything in this case, but it's just frustrating.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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A. Really thinking PJ is town here. I don't think he attacks me like this, this way, if he's scum. I was expecting him to continue to disengage from me if he was scum. He's wrong, of course, but he's probably town.
B. I've done my best to get a read on everyone in the game, and I shared it. I did an entire re-read to clarify my thoughts. Sorry if that's not good enough, PJ, but that's all I've got, and all I'm likely to have today unless something more informative happens. I don't know what else to say. If you have questions about specific people, please ask them (although then you'll probably just call me "reactive" again or whatever.) And just to make this even crappier, I'm going to be going on V/LA next week, so, yeah. Fun times.
C. If we all agree that Parama is probably scum, then why can't we just bloody lynch him (well, his replacement, Bowser)? Even the people attacking me all seem to thing Parama is scum. I haven't heard anyone defend him as town, with the possible exception of Shanba, and yet it's been amazingly hard to get a wagon going on him. This strongly implies that the scum don't want him lynched. Can't we just lynch the semi-lurking obvscum today?
We haven't heard much from Bowser yet, but the two posts he's made so far with any kind of content look bad:
Bowser wrote:Oh crap. replacing a scummy as hell slot.
I'm going to take some time aside and do this.
Followed by:
Bowser wrote:Look at my wagon. It's probably scum-driven.
If Bowser's slot was "scummy as hell", then why is the wagon against him "probably scum driven"? If Parama looked scummy, which Bowser apparently admits, then why wouldn't town wagon him?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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ToastyToast wrote:@Yosarian: Why rush? If a replacement has a chance of chaning town's mind, let them.
Because he's scum. Why do you want to give the scum a chance to change the town's mind?
Plus, you know, 3 days until deadline.
You are sounding more and more desperate as this day goes on. Your over-defensiveness towards mastin is noted, as is your "don't lynch me!" attitude towards PJ.
vdsvcdvfsDVSjv24g jvidsfjoviFJSVDnfs vnnt2o4itfjdsjDVGASo;jidsiI#EW#(*(O:IIIIDIFVJDEIFJDKIVVDVMKDMMKKMKKMNKMKMMMMMMNOLEFDFDF DFASF ADFCV AEF @QR DFADFVQEF SAEDF QFEADFEFAESW DFA DGFAS DFASDFAS DGFAE GFASD FAEWDGAEDGZADVGZADGFAEST#QE T#QDGFADGAEDGAEGRET#QT#QDTGAEDGADFAEDFADFASTGQEWdgnfscdgzn
That being said, you do realize that I am at one vote right now, and it's 3 days until deadline, right? If I was scum, I wouldn't be at all worried by the attacks against me right now.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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ToastyToast wrote:yosarian wrote:That being said, you do realize that I am at one vote right now, and it's 3 days until deadline, right? If I was scum, I wouldn't be at all worried by the attacks against me right now.
1)My read on Parama is null, not scum[
2)With multiple people announcing that they find you suspicious? Yeah, you would be worried as scum.
Why would I be worried as scum? I've only got two people who've at all expressed suspicion of me, and only one vote.
As town, I'm worried because both of those people who are attacking me seems to be town, and influential town (one who seems completely illogically attacking me for no good reason, and who won't give a case no matter what I do; and the other is PJ, so he's automatically influential just based on his posting ability), which means at some point in the future the scum could add their support to that and make it a real wagon. Besides that, this is potentially a big distraction for the town in the long run, especially with a player like PJ mistakenly suspecting me; it's going to make it a lot harder for me to scumhunt, and is likely to generally make the rest of this game suck. But if I was scum, i wouldn't be at all worried about two people; either I'd kill them, or I'd ignore them. I wouldn't have to worry at all if I was scum; this is only a potential problem because I'm town and I think they're both town.
Having 3 days only limits my options, which means I'm going to have to unvote hrezs/CTD. Of the people who have a chance of getting lynched, you do look like a possibility.
What makes Parama scummier than DH, in your opinion?
I don't really see why DH is scummy, for the most part. He's made some weird posts, but he hasn't been nearly as anti-town as Parama.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Shanba wrote:
Mostly because he was saying these things without followup. He was passively reacting to PJ's case, defending the accusations against him, then adding some little bits and pieces that amount to a "Pj this attack is scummy!" That stunk of misdirection. If yos honestly thought this was scummy, why wasn't he going on the offensive? I called him on it, and he posted without responding. Then when I pressed the issue again, he backed off. That sits really awkwardly with me - particularly as the backing off occurred after pj stopped going after him.
That's not really accurate. First I responded to PJ's attacks, and he basically stopped attacking me. Then, after he basically stopped attacking me, I thought about it (especially about how his weird "yos is fishing the neighbors" thing seemed to conflict with his "the neighbors are scum" thing), and I went on the offensive against PJ, because I realized that what he was saying didn't seem to fit with the rest of his beliefs (starting with that post you just quoted). I attacked him and asked questions for a while after that point. I've spent most of the rest of the day trying to get a read on PJ, and have gone back and forth on it a few times and we've seen new evidence. When you asked me, I had changed my mind and thought he was likely town, but then I came back around to thinking he was likely scum after I re-read the whole game and found some problems with his play. And then I actually changed my mind again, BECAUSE of the way PJ started attacking me again I changed my mind again and decided he was probably town after all, because I just don't think he would do that as scum (which is pretty much the opposite of what you're saying). Truth is, PJ's just damn hard to read.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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mastin2 wrote:Why when I skimmed this did I get the distinct impression it was bussing Sapo and Yos2?
Probably because you have a ridiculous conspiracy theory that has no basis for it and no logic behind it at all, and it's coloring all of your perceptions of the game.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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MBL: Nothing specifically changed my my mind about DH. I guess I'm mostly assuming at this point that parama is scum and that therefore DH is probably town. As for DH himself; eh, he's borderline.
I realize that I've been kind of all over the place to day in my suspicions. When I'm as wrong as I was day 1 of this game, I'm often doubting myself and going back and fourth on everything the next day. I don't really have a lot of confidence in most of my own reads at this point. I'm mostly just hoping that we lynch a scum today, and that once we get one scum caught, that everything starts to make more sense.
As for CTD and Hrez; Hrez was on my borderline scummy list, mostly through process of elimination. CTD's case on me is pretty null; IMHO, he could be making this case as either alignment.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Quick post from a borrowed computer while on V/LA:
Still happy with a bowser lynch. Don't see any reason to think he's town at this point.
mastin2 wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:
1: fencesitting, 2: HE JUST POINTED OUT HOW SCUMMY MERAN'S ROLEFISHING WOULD BE, AND HE DOESN'T THINK IT'S VOTEWORTHY?!?Yosarian2 wrote:I'm considering sheeping PJ onto Meren; only problem is that, other then the role fishing thing (with I really want an explanation from Meren about), I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad.
I didn't think Meran looked like scum, so I didn't want to vote him, despite the rolefishing stuff. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
Also, all this attacking about using "fence sitting words" or whatever is fairly silly. If I have a weak town read on someone that I'm not that confident about, I'm not going to pretend to be 100% sure when I'm not. Doing that is just bad for the town. Do you expect me to play like Fate or something?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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First of all, lol at all the people accusing me of "bussing" because I was right yesterday. So typical; I'm wrong day 1 and right day 2, and people are attacking me for both, heh. Personally, I'm just glad I'm batting .500 this game, but hey, whatever.
Anyway, now that we have a caught scum, we have some real meat to analyze. Looking back on day 2 with the knowledge Para is scum, my biggest suspect right now is CTD.
CTD opposed the wagon all day, while pushing wagons like DH (who could theoretically be SK, but is certainly not on the scum team with his neighbor Para at this point).
CTD:
ISO Post 3, he attacked Meransiel (town), DH (not scum), and me (town)..
Post 4 he attacks the same people in more detail (Meran, me, and DH), and defends Hydra and Para.
Post 5, he keeps pushing the same bad suspects, saying:
CTD wrote:I'll eat my hat if not at least one of {Meransiel, Yosarian2, DemonHybrid} is scum.
Which, considering he's talking about 3 people who are not scum, is a pretty damn scummy thing to push.
Post 6:
tldr: scumlist as of end of D1:
scum:
Meransiel
Yos2
DemonHybrid
leaning scum:
PJ
grey glob of goo:
Mastin2
Icerint
saporovirus
Shanba
kondi2424
leaning town:
earworm
Parama
town:
Hydra
MBL
Same list, same bad reasons.
By post 6 and 7, he could no longer push the Meran lynch for obvious reasons, moved Shanba and Earworm down to his suspect list, but kept voting for DH, while saying neutral-ish things about Para in his post #6 and then putting him in his "leaning town" list in post 7, which I think by this point was a pretty unjustified position to take.
CTD wrote:
tldr:
scum:
DemonHybrid
leaning scum:
killerjester
Shanba
Yos
neutral:
Pine
ToastyToast
leaning town:
Bowser
PJ
Hydra
MBL
confirmed town:
Mastin
Meransiel
Icerint
I think CTD is the most likely suspect for Para's buddy at this point, based on day 2 interactions.
Vote:CrashTextDummies
New comments on other people, based on analysis with knowledge of more alignments:
Shanba: Pretty much defended Para-scum for much of the game.
Shanba wrote:I don't think Parama is scum. I don't agree with his attack on MoI, but I'm unconvinced it's scummy.
Unvote Vote: SensFan
Shanba wrote:
Parama made the whole "KONDI TOWNSLIPPED" post which to me a pretty big towntell in and of itself. His attack on MoI was meeeeh, but whatever. I would like if he would pursue leads instead of "just throwing that out there" but again whatever.
Shanba wrote:TBH, mbl, Parama's behaviour today doesn't strike me as particularly indicative of his alignment at all. Yesterday he was reasonably active and did some amount of scumhunting (if mediocre scumhunting). Today? Well, he fell behind, and then spent the whole time defending himself. I mean, I have to reread to be sure, but I'm pretty sure the accusations came before the scumhunting stopped, and it's not uncommon at all for a player under a lot of pressure who's also behind to drop dramatically in scumhunting. It's like, you only have so much time and effort you can spend on a game.
I dont want to argue this too hard, because I'm not really that sure he's town, but I don't think the case against him is very strong.
Shanba wrote:
Parama really looks like he just lost interest in the game. I dont think that's scummy or townie either way. The whole "I'm catching up" thing may be classic active lurking, but it's not what scum do when already under pressure, as Parama was. When you think you're getting lynched, like in parama's situation, you try and defuse it by giving them words - even if the words are not considered or consistent or whatever. Promises to catch up dont placate mobs.
Would Shanba do all that for a fairly doomed scumbuddy? I don't know. There are still some posts of Shanba that give me a good gut feeling, but defending scum to that extent is is to big a thing to ignore, and Shanba has just moved way down my list.fos:shanba
Hydra: Their hardcore attacks of Meran look pretty bad, especally the BS "he claimed scum" post typed in ALL CAPS. They did vote Para for much of day 2, but I'm a little skittish about giving them much town cred for that, because of a few factors:
For a while, Hydra didn't have any real reasons for voting for Para. I'm not really clear why he was doing it. This was the only mention of Para in the post where they vote him:
Hydra wrote:
Parama needs rope or replace out for failing at game.
In a very long post (ISO 53), he talks about everything else in the game, just barely mentions Para at all, and then ends up voting Para.
Later, he makes this post:
Hydra wrote:heh, a few previews I missed. I am happy with lynching parama, and on a scum flip, going straight after saporo.
This post strikes me the wrong way. He still hasn't really explained why he wants to lynch para, other then lurking, but is already lining up lynches for what to do after he flips scum?I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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ToastyToast wrote:
Yosarian, why are you voting someone with no wagon when you have an FoS on Shanba, the biggest wagon? Is there a large difference in your confidence b/w the two reads?
Yes, I certanly do. I have a strong scum read on CTD. I have mixed feelings on Shanba; I don't know if he would really defend a buddy that strongly as scum or not, and I had a town gut read from some of his posts. I don't really like his voting history, and I don't really like his lack of content, but I'm not confident on him.
I really can't see CTD being town at all at this point, and I'm troubled that he's gotten no pressure at all for his treatment of Para vs. DH yesterday, as well as the other scumtells like the "One of DH, Meran, and Yos must be scum" line.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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MrBuddyLee wrote:Posting from vacation.
@Xanatos, can you please explain why you find the KJ-saporo slot townish?
@Yos, welcome back. Hope you enjoyed your vacation.
MrBuddyLee wrote:Yos's opinion of her is floaty:
Yos, July 14th wrote:SV seems town-ish to me right now. Stuff like where on day 1 she questioned DH about the Kondi thing, and when he answered, she unvoted him based on his answers feels honestly town to me.
Yos, July 16th wrote:saporovirus: Not really a fan of her day 1 play. I like that she defended me against PJ on day 2, heh. (Ok, it's hard for me to be unbiased about this, but that defensive posts feels town-ish to me).
Null: Hydra, MBL, saporovirus
@Yos: What's the latest scoop on saporo?
Eh. Her content was thin, so it's hard to say anything for sure, but I don't think it's all that likely that she was scum with Para. This looks like an honest attack to me:
saporovirus wrote:DemonHybrid wrote:saporovirus wrote:unvote
vote: parama
Reasoning?
1. I am still not liking how you both jumped on the Hydra wagon after kondi "townslipped," but your play towards the end of D1 struck me as somewhat less scummy. I have to go back and re-read it to figure out why I thought so.
2. Parama's general "fuck off with your questions" attitude has been a bit strange. He could just be pissed off with the game but it's been going on for a while.
3. One of you 3 is scum and it's not kondi and it's probably not you.
She did get off the para wagon for a while at one point after this, but, meh. This doesn't really look like distancing to me.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie- Yosarian2
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Yosarian2 (shrug)
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CrashTextDummie wrote:
2. One flipped town in a list of 3 suspects does not make that scum list "pretty damn scummy"
You said "one of the three people is scum". None of them are, and that makes you look pretty scummy.
You know full well it's more then "one flipped town". DH really can't be in the same scumgroup as Para, which means that he's either town or effectively so. Scum yesterday defiantly would have been pushing for DH over Para. And yes, I am using the fact that I know my own alignment in my analysis; people who pretend they don't know their own alignment when analyzing the game are idiot.
b) You are painting my read in a scummy light ("could no longer push"), completely disregarding the fact that it makes perfect sense for me from a pro-town standpoint to abandon my Meransiel suspicion upon learning that he was a tracker
Sure. It's part of a general pattern of bad suspicions on your part, though.
Looking at day 2, you simply look more like a Para buddy then anyone else in the game does.
Yos wrote:[he said] neutral-ish things about Para in his post #6 and then [put] him in his "leaning town" list in post 7, which I think by this point was a pretty unjustified position to take.
His placement as "leaning town" was in large parts based on a strong town-vibe I got from him in the early goings, and the fact that he was a neighbor to my top suspect. I communicated this very clearly.
What it looks like to me is you were using wishy-washing words in your post, to try to not link yourself so obviously to Para, but then in your list you left him as town, because you wanted to push people in that direction.
Yos wrote:I really can't see CTD being town at all at this point, (...)
Based onthatcase? To say that you're overstating would be putting it mildly.
You look like Para's buddy. You've consistently pushed bad wagons all game, defended scum, and made bad votes all game, and it looks like you've done it in a tactical way to me.I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie - Yosarian2
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