Mini 311 - Game Over!

[VitaminR]

Vote: Save the Dragons

. Why save dragons?

[VitaminR]

Vote: Save the Dragons

. Why save dragons?

Uh, duh! It's because they are sooooo cool!

They're great, fire-breathing monstrosities! They eat people.

[VitaminR]

Isn't bandwagoning like that fairly useless? It's based solely on random reasons.

I understand the need to generate discussion, but that's through interpretation of random votes. Not through simply random voting someone else. Putting someone one away from a lynch on nothing just makes the game stagnant. Unless anyone seriously expects STD to claim.

Unvote: Save the Dragons

Ok

Vote:STD

It seems we need some information

I like my vote here better.

Vote: Der Hammer

[VitaminR]

Ouch,

im not saying you jumped on. I also think there are more shifty looking people than me with TheAbstract changing votes quickly once he spotted that they were picking up on STD. Now it probably means nothing but if im gonna be pointed at for nothing then I can do the same.

I didn't like those votes either. What stuck out for me was the justification. That bandwagon doesn't bring us information and the way you phrased it suggests you don't want to take responsibility for the bandwagon. Minor things, but enough to make me change my vote at this stage.

[VitaminR]

unvote: theabstract
vote: VitaminR

Often, a random wagon is needed just to see people's reaction. Vitamin derailed the wagon for no reason.

Eh? What reaction was STD supposed to give? And wasn't my derailing the wagon a reaction to the wagon?

You are mistaken. Every wagon deserves a claim. And they're nice for testing peoples reactions. For example, I know you and VitaminR don't particulary want STD lynched right now for no given reason. That throws a red flag up.

I don't want STD lynched right now because there is no given reason for it. Why should he claim? Should every completely random bandwagon get a claim? Doesn't that make it incredibly easy for scum to get an early claim? That is like giving them a head start.

I can't say I am really suspicious of CoolBot, though. I don't see scum seriously arguing for something that clearly benefits scum. It's just very odd.

[VitaminR]

FOS: Der Hammer

Almost-lynch vote on a pointless bandwagon well after what should be random voting phase. Claim. Now.

This worries me. I don't think we should be asking for a claim this early, nor this forcefully. The evidence does not warrant it.

I'm still waiting for a response from CoolBot. He has a lot to justify.

[VitaminR]

Btw, GreenLiquid, why FOS him and vote later if you want a claim?

[VitaminR]

And wasn't my derailing the wagon a reaction to the wagon?

You bet. That's why I voting you. There was no reason to stop the wagon on STD without hearing from STD first. Scum know who is innocent, and often protect them for a defense later.

Should every completely random bandwagon get a claim? Doesn't that make it incredibly easy for scum to get an early claim?

By arbitrarily letting people off the hook for a claim, we allow the possiblity of scum of saving themselves from a lynch without a claim. That is worse than any role having to claim themselves, except maybe for a doc.

Arbritarily? How about because there was no reason at all for him to claim?
If we allow a random bandwagon to get a claim, you'll get an early claim in every game. Even if we do not allow for the control scum have over the process, this gives scum an advantage as a most of the time a pro-town player will have to claim.

Claims require evidence.

[VitaminR]

I'd just like to say that I utterly disagree with CoolBot and am keeping my vote parked where it is. As VitaminR (and I, earlier) have said, a bandwagon with no reasonable merit whatsoever is

not

a legitimate reason to force someone to claim. I don't think it necessarily reflects well on VitaminR for having derailed the wagon, but I agree with the opinion that STD had no need to claim, and should not have been at any risk.

Hmm? As I recall, you unvoted right after me, FOSing Der Hammer and citing similar reasons. You don't agree with that any more? Or wouldn't you have posted that if I hadn't derailed the wagon?

[VitaminR]

An initial wagon is needed to force everyone, not just the target, to start actually playing. If VitaminR had just gotten off the wagon, I wouldn't be so suspicous of him. But he clearly tried to get others to follow him, for no particular reason.

How did I do that?

[VitaminR]

To me absolutely no one has any real basis on what they are saying and everything is random at this point. StD could have been forced into a claim which would have been something to talk about and now it looks like I will be forced to claim and nothing is happening because a pointless wagon was pointlessly stopped

The point is, STD would not have been forced into a claim. Claims require evidence. There wouldn't have been more to talk about. The point of the wagon was to get a response. This is that response.

CoolBot, I'm not sure how that is more than just giving my reasoning.

If VitaminR had just gotten off the wagon, I wouldn't be so suspicous of him. But he clearly tried to get others to follow him, for no particular reason.

I'm not sure how you can make that distinction, in terms of giving your opinion.

[VitaminR]

What is the response?

Nothing has happened since

The wagon on you, CoolBot's actions, every part of the discussion. How can you call that nothing?

Why are you assuming something else would have happened had the wagon not been derailed at that point? I think the level of activity is the result of no information on Day 1, not the derailing of the wagon.

[VitaminR]

It can be anything. Some mods like the symmetry, others will break from it intentionally. Speculating is pretty much useless.

Not sure what to think of CoolBot's claim, but I wasn't that enthusiastic about the wagon on him in the first place.

I still like my Der Hammer vote.

[VitaminR]

These GreenLiquid and CoolBot wagons make me uneasy. Scum is not that blatant in my experience. I suppose that's largely WIFOM, but it makes me less than enthusiastic to pursue either.

I'm not sure I like how quickly the "Der Hammer is just a newbie"-argument is being taken over, but I see Glork's point. I don't like the alternative, though. I can quite easily see Zindaras' lack of production as newbishness too.

[VitaminR]

Re-read a bit. In terms of productivity, I don't think Zindaras stands out. Nightfall, an experienced player, has basically contributed the same amount and he also looks a lot scummier to me. He hasn't had any real suspicions of his own. He has basically FOSed twice (Der Hammer & Zindaras), both times simply supporting existing argumentation and not adding much of his own judgement.

I also don't like how he almost turned the Der Hammer wagon into a lynch, but seems to have backed off without commenting now. I'd like to see a lot more input from him.

Unvote: Der Hammer, Vote: Nightfall

Glork, why Zindaras over Nightfall? Or STD, mangaguy, theabstract, for that matter? The reasons you cited were almost solely related to contribution.

[VitaminR]

I am a bit uneasy changing my vote in the face of a deadline with this amount of people not using their vote.

For the sake of clarity, though: I'd consider changing my vote to Der Hammer and theabstract at this point.

[VitaminR]

I am glad to see some support on Nightfall, because I am not too sure about this any more:

I'd consider changing my vote to Der Hammer and theabstract at this point.

Voting theabstract seems a bit useless at this point and I'm not too enthused about a Der Hammer lynch.

[VitaminR]

I don't really want to have to choose between Der Hammer and GreenLiquid yet. Can we hear from the people not using their vote?

[VitaminR]

I don't believe a scum-Der Hammer would do something that daring, but I'm not convinced GL is scum. I don't like how his wagon is being rushed. I consider Glork confirmed, but I don't like his quick certainty(or CoolBot's, for that matter).

I think there are too many doubts to take the risk at this point and I don't think the points raised against GL's claim warrant a lynch.

[VitaminR]

I'm not sure I like how quickly this STD wagon has built. I'm not particularly opposed to an STD lynch, but it seems odd that Glork's interpretation of one post is all that is needed for a quick three votes. Der Hammer and especially Zindaras look very bad on that. I also note that both Pink Princess and Primate making comments that may justify a later STD vote.

With the lack of resistance on this wagon and a highly suspect quick third vote by Zindaras (even though essentially echoing Glork, since what he adds in information is merely "an interesting note") along with some strange jumping to conclusions early on, I'm going for Zindaras over Nightfall at the moment.

Vote: Zindaras

[VitaminR]

With the lack of resistance on this wagon and a highly suspect quick third vote by Zindaras (even though essentially echoing Glork, since what he adds in information is merely "an interesting note") along with some strange jumping to conclusions early on, I'm going for Zindaras over Nightfall at the moment.

You are very much wrong here. I posted why I thought STD might be scum before Glork did.

Where?

[VitaminR]

Thanks. I re-read your posts, but I had somehow missed it. That does put your third vote in a new perspective, I have to admit.

Unvote: Zindaras

for now.

[VitaminR]

I am sticking with my unvote. Zindaras has been productive and clear in his suspicions.

I am mostly suspicious of Primate and Nightfall at this point. Primate jumped on the Zindaras wagon while asking for a claim on STD, but has not commented on the claim at all.

Nightfall has carefully avoided giving real opinions and has done nothing to lessen my suspicions of him.

I'd like to hear from thedocsalive first (fresh input is always valuable), but I'm pretty sure I'll return to my Nightfall vote soon. We need some movement and I don't like the direction we're heading in.

[VitaminR]

Did a re-read, felt it was time to do a brief scummary:

Der Hammer - Confirmed
Glork - Ditto
mangaguy - Lurkish, has not really committed to much, seems to have sudden certainty on Zindaras. I can't say I understand Glork's vehemence, though.
Nightfall - I have played with Nightfall before and I think something is off. He has voted once and generally appeared non-committal. I suppose it could be a lack of time, but I'm not convinced.
thedocsalive replacing Pink Princess - I thought PP was doing some good analysis (did go after Glork, though). I'd like to hear more from the doc.
Save The Dragons - I don't think the case against him is that strong, but he hasn't really scored any pro-town points with me either.
Primate replacing theabstract - I think his attitude towards STD was odd. He called for a claim, yet said he did not want to vote STD (despite apparently not believing the claim).
VitaminR - Me! *waves*
Zindaras - I thought he pushed the STD wagon with too much urgency, but I'm getting a very good vibe off his latest posts. A lot of contribution and they seem sincere.

With that I think I've sorted my suspicions.

Vote: Nightfall

[VitaminR]

The speed of claims in this game is crazy. Glork and Der Hammer, you are confirmed, but jumping around like this has its disadvantages. This is why I am hesitant about claims.

Having said that, I am not sure about Zindaras' claim. Gut feeling was good on him, but he keeps doing things that somehow throw me doubt back on him. I didn't like the mangaguy vote at all. Zindaras saw him as "erring on the side of town" only shortly before that.

I also have to say I agree with Nightfall. I think the improved chance that Nightfall is town (especially with a traitor down) is significant enough for at least some prudence.

Losing a roleblocker with our doc outed, however, is risky enough for me to want to look elsewhere for the moment.

Unvote: Nightfall

because of this new information.

That leaves STD and Primate for me at the moment. I think Primate is the scummiest of the two, as indicated earlier.

Vote: Primate

[VitaminR]

Vote: VitaminR

Does the condemned have any last words for us?
Maybe wanna tell us who your scumbuddy is? Eh?

I'm a miller?

[VitaminR]

First post that made me laugh in a while

Thanks.

It has been a fun game. Of course, I'd like to see you all dead, but still... nice investigating.