NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

[NihilisticNinja]

/confirm. Whee.

[NihilisticNinja]

Me: It's Better to Remain Silent and Thought to be a Fool Than to Open Your Mouth and Prove It.

Lambda: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Haha, but I am a fool, so, I should remain silent and don't give anyone proof that I'm actually a fool.
If your quote is what you go by, then you are certainly no fool unlike me?

So... wait.

QUOTE #1:
PREMISE #1: drmyshotgun is a fool
PREMISE #2: It's better to remain silent and thought to be a fool than open your mouth and prove it.
CONCLUSION: drmyshotgun should remain silent.

QUOTE #2:
PREMISE #1: It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
PREMISE #2: drmyshotgun is a fool.
???
CONCLUSION: Lambda isn't a fool.

How do you get from Premise #2 to conclusion?

[NihilisticNinja]

Ah, drmyshotgun, is this what you're getting at?

QUOTE #2:
PREMISE #1: It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
CONCLUSION #1: Fools that know they are fools should remain silent.
OBSERVATION #1: Lambda does not remain silent
CONCLUSION #2: Lambda is therefore not a fool
?

[NihilisticNinja]

Well following that train of though, Lambda could be a fool that did not know she was one. Therefore your reasoning cannot be the right one.

I didn't say it was a completely LOGICAL train of thought though, I just asked if that was the train of thought he was utilizing.

[NihilisticNinja]

To destroy all premises presented above: I'm not a fool. I am certainly not silent.
Anyone keen for some random questions? I do them all the time, but in a game this big, don't think its such a good idea.

So what were you saying in #27 then? Break it down for me.

how is ninja already buddying lambda before the game starts.

OH GODDAMNIT LAMBDA CCV CAUGHT US. POST SO I CAN DISTANCE FROM YOU.

Dislike vijays desire for random questions, when it is agreed that random questions will take a while and thereby likely stall the game. Benmage is town, Kublai likely is too. Not feeling any Mastin love at the moment. Junpei gives me bad vibes.

Also, I'm a 2 year old who lives in a cave and has brain damage. Explain the shotty policy lynch.

[NihilisticNinja]

Explain the shotty policy lynch.

he's a 2 year old who lives in a cave and has brain damage.

As a two year old your fancy quote system confuses me. Elaborate please- examples?

[NihilisticNinja]

examples?

[NihilisticNinja]

ummmm...ever game I've played with him. Its common site knowledge that he's a VI. Why are you seemingly defending a shotty pl?

I think you mean "attacking", and I don't necessarily disagree with it. I want to know why you in particular are advocating for it. Don't feel like making a case for you.

[NihilisticNinja]

He asked why a shotty lynch was even being considered, I told him that he was a VI and that he was hard to read ergo I'm not going to miss him if he does end up being lynched (though I doubt he will} so I'm not sure what question thats not being answered.

The question that's not being answered is WHY he's a VI. WHY you're pushing so hard for this policy lynch. I'm trying to force you out of cruise control. It's a nulltell that you want shotty lynched- you said you did pregame. What may NOT be is the fact that I keep pressuring you to explain how shotty is a VI and thus should be policy lynched, and you keep giving me default responses.

Here's what a good response would have been:
"In TV Mafia he was awful as scum. In Newbie 1081 he argued that a LaL policy, an extremely common one on MS, was a "scumslip". He is a VI, and the town would not lose anything from being rid of him."

Lambda's "Just take a look at a few of his games in ISO, NN." Isn't great, but acceptable.

Your "He should be policy lynched because he's a VI. He's a VI because argumentum ad populum." is not acceptable. Your "VIs make great wagons" is opportunistic as hell, and your explanation is not good enough. I actually KNEW why a shotty policy lynch was on the table- I wanted to know why the advocates were pushing for it.

Your push back against me for wanting an explanation is noted as well.

In sum, I have read your newsletter and even agree with it, but the way you are selling it to me makes me want to not subscribe.

[NihilisticNinja]

He wants me to explain why people are VIs. Yeah I don't get it.

If I were to exchange "why" for "how", would that make it clearer? Thought the context in that last post would make it clear what I meant- apologies if it didn't.

[NihilisticNinja]

NN: Why push others for answers when you could just as easily research yourself? Why are you trying to make others do your work for you?

rack- see previous post, where I cited two examples of VI behavior from shotty. I did actually understand the case for calling him a VI. I wanted the people who were actually arguing for the lynch to make a case for it as well. The burden of proof was on them, after all. That's like if somebody posted "Let's speedlynch rack" and I asked why they wanted to speedlynch you, and they responded "go look at his posts yourself. I'm not going to do the work for you."

Pushing people for explanations for votes/suspicions is a key part of Mafia- you want to examine their motivations and determine whether or not they are genuine.

[NihilisticNinja]

Red, CCV, Maxous, shotgun- what is your current read on Nero?

[NihilisticNinja]

KK: Nero is currently null-leaning-scum.

Why?

LLD: no u

Should we take that to mean that you didn't have any reasons to call Lambda passive?

[NihilisticNinja]

Holy fuck. I want Rack to die a painful death immediately. (their first content post is easily the scummiest thing in thread)

I also would like scooby to die. (confirm without content? :/)

Actually, reading it again... yeah. That post is pretty awful. No reads, with three incredibly weak questions that won't provide any information that really seems like it could generate a read, two of them feeling like they're passively attacking two of the people who are attacking Nero Cain, whom apparently rack has a slight scum read on, and yet doesn't press Nero in any way in the original post, and then doesn't actually follow up on the two questions that are answered.

And while I like the pressure Lambda exerted on Nero, her reason for her Mastin read was pretty weaksauce, and this feels a bit weird to me:

I honestly wouldn't mind a Mastin lynch right now, because he's playing up this whole "new me" thing, and it's out of character. Almost like he's compensating for something...

mastin2 could be town. Time will tell. I'm in no rush to lynch him. He'll slip up later if he's scum.

Nero Cain, drmyshotgun, & Maxous are earlytown.

Candy Corn Vampire has some bad mojo going on. Not a fan of vijay2vasandani either.

P. Edit - Good feelings on HezLucky. He's wrong though.

Once again, elaborate. Mastin2 thing is fine.

If you feel that Mastin is a good lynch candidate, why is KK's early weak null/town read on him "fine"?

[NihilisticNinja]

Sigh. Beginning to think that this is a town v. town argument, so I'm not pushing it any further.

Nero- what are your current reads, and why? Particularly rack and redFF?
And redFF- what are your current reads and why? Particularly Nero Cain and rack?

Anybody else getting a distancing vibe from redFF and Pine's regarding the rack-hydra debate, or is it just me.

And KK continues to be town. Getting a town vibe from Librarian too.

[NihilisticNinja]

You need to look at context, Ninja.

The reason it was "fine" is because Mastin has posted a sufficient amount that a read on him can be justified. I understood why he might have that read, since A) My own Mastin read is only a slight concern and not a full on scum read and B) even if I did read Mastin as strong scum from early on, that doesn't mean that KK can't have reason to find him town.

Good defense. At the moment, you're definitely playing like LambdaTown.

The other thing I find disturbing in your posts, Pine, is the "distancing" comment about myself and Rack. Are you seriously trying to make associative tells with no one flipped yet? Hell, no one has even VOTED YET and you're trying to do this. I want an explanation of why you think that you can do associative tells with no one flipped yet.

I disagree. It IS possible to get associative vibes pre-flip. They shouldn't be STRONG ones, and one certainly can't vote based off them, but it's worth noting when you see possible connections between players. The rack-Lambda connection is nonsense, though.

[NihilisticNinja]

I find it incredibly amusing that LLD demeans Librarian's suspicion of Rack as going after an easy target, then unequivocally calls Rack scum later in the post. DISINGENUOUSLY DISTANCE MOAR, K?

Librarian has some good posts about Rack.Then again, Rack is a incredibly easy target and anyone can make the blanket statement about Rack's questions. They're terrible. Follow this with Rack not substatiating his claim about me, and he's looking really bad.

Quote-mine more, kthnx. She's saying that rack is obvscum, so it's easy to make blanket attacks against them- not that they're an easy mislynch.

[NihilisticNinja]

guys guys guys

We're lynching shotty day 1, this is a foregone conclusion.

Let's talk about day 2.

Oh hey, nice to see you're here, redFF. Care to answer the question I've asked you to answer twice now and you keep dodging?

And why is it a foregone conclusion? I much prefer a rack lynch at the moment.

Benmage- explain red town. Not feeling it at all. Shotty-scum is another good question.

[NihilisticNinja]

@NN, reds opener to the mod. Post 111.

Can we vote yet?

Are there hydras in this game?

I can see #111 being a towntell, but not a huge one. And his question to the mod is null, imo. His lack of commenting on 99% of the game and refusing to give reads is far more disconcerting. I mean, just look at his ISO. Not getting the warm townie fuzzies.

And in case those are actual questions: reck is apparently a hydra, and I don't believe we can vote yet.

[NihilisticNinja]

Oh hey, nice to see you're here, redFF. Care to answer the question I've asked you to answer twice now and you keep dodging?

And why is it a foregone conclusion? I much prefer a rack lynch at the moment.

Benmage- explain red town. Not feeling it at all. Shotty-scum is another good question.

I'm not dodging anything, shotty is the day 1 lynch.

Red, CCV, Maxous, shotgun- what is your current read on Nero?

Nero- what are your current reads, and why? Particularly rack and redFF?
And redFF- what are your current reads and why? Particularly Nero Cain and rack?

And no, we aren't lynching Shotty solely on policy. A compelling case has yet to be made that that will be necessary. Find scum, please.

[NihilisticNinja]

Nero agreed with me in the signup thread that a shotty policy lynch would be a good idea, before he knew his alignment. We just genuinely don't like playing with him and he is detrimental to town as any alignment.

I think you're tunneling on him with no real evidence tbh.

... Who said anything about Nero being scum, Red?

Sigh. Beginning to think that this is a town v. town argument, so I'm not pushing it any further.

I'm honestly beginning to get a stubborn town read from Nero. In fact, if you go through my ISO, you'll see plenty of posts where I don't mention Nero at all. The main reason why I'm trying to draw out Nero reads is due to how active he's been in this game.

And I notice that you deflected my question yet again- what are your current reads, Red? Outside of the hydra issue and shotty being a VI, any thoughts on how the game has developed thus far?

Also, Maxous gets some townie points.

[NihilisticNinja]

oh crap!!! Hez pegged me!!!!

(is this still the lulz tunnel or you snerious?)

Where did I ever suggest in my original post that there would be any lulz associated with any of this?

Reads other than on Nero and redFF please.

Also, what Nero wagon are you talking about? I think we've all moved to greener pastures.

Benmage: I'll respond anyway. :p

I made a detailed case against rack, and have made points against both redFF and Pine. And no, a PL case is not the best case you can expect when you've had 7 pages of actual content. We have plenty of content to scumhunt with.

[NihilisticNinja]

Post 110 aint exactly a detailed case.

It was an explanation of how both the posts they had made were scummy, backed up by a response in #101, noting another scummy point in their second post. Exactly how are you defining a "detailed case"?

And can we please not direct a vig that we don't even know exists? I'm not sure how on Earth that could be a smart idea.

[NihilisticNinja]

Nero agreed with me in the signup thread that a shotty policy lynch would be a good idea, before he knew his alignment. We just genuinely don't like playing with him and he is detrimental to town as any alignment.

I think you're tunneling on him with no real evidence tbh.

... Who said anything about Nero being scum, Red?

Erm you asked me for my read on him and I gave it to you...
Why would you be pushing him and asking everyone for reads on him if you didn't think he was scummy?

Ah, sorry. Was unaware that that was your read on him... mainly because it doesn't really say that much of anything about him. So I take it you think that Nero is town?

What is your current read on rack? I also asked you to tell me that.

And look at my last post- I'm asking for reads on him because he's one of the biggest players in the game, thus reads on him and explanation for those reads is one of the better ways to draw out information.

[NihilisticNinja]

Holy shit, has the game even started? And most of this is useless, and we already have insults!

Kublai (may I call you that?) I just want Mastin to be more focused so that he's more effective if town and doesn't spam the thread like some people already have.

How is most of this "useless"? Elaborate. I'm finding most of this content quite useful. For instance, your dismissing it all out of hand only reinforces the bad vibes I had about you from earlier.

Also, I assume that you're talking about me? High PC does not = spamming. Please provide examples of where I have spammed this thread.

LLD, you said AT LEAST two or three times that Mastin needed to die or he deserved a lynch. I even quoted one of them in my last post. If you're now saying that you didn't mean it, fine, that's your problem. Looked pretty fucking genuine to me.

The distancing between LLD and Rack is mostly from Rack's side. They had a small, toothless spat, then moved past it into ignoring one another. By itself, entirely circumstantial. Combined with

independent

scumreads on both, it looks like distancing.

Pine, meet me at Camera 3.

Spoiler: At Camera 3

Heya, Pine. How's it going? Have you got enough snacks? Liking that Coke? Good, good. Now, let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we?

One of the basic thrusts for your attack on LLD is that she wanted Mastin lynched solely based on the change in playstyle. That's terrific, and would actually be a bit scummy if she did. But she didn't. Let's take a look at her first Mastin post again.

I honestly wouldn't mind

a Mastin lynch right now, because he's playing up this whole "new me" thing, and it's out of character. Almost like he's compensating for something.

KK are you town?

Bluntly?

No.

This is weird too. Mastin, please elaborate on how KK isn't town based off his posting up to Post 51.

First, "honestly wouldn't mind" does not = "he needs to die" or even "deserves a lynch". It argues "Hey, you know that Mastin guy? There's something off about him. I wouldn't mind him being lynched in the future." I disagree with her reasoning, but that's irrelevant. And even at the beginning, she noted something else she found off about Mastin- the KK comment. So even in the BEGINNING, Mastin pressure wouldn't have solely been based on the change in playstyle. Now, let's look at her next post.

@Pine: You're not really this dense are you? I don't care if Mastin has claiming he wanted to "change his ways" before this game began (which coincidentally I had no knowledge of him saying this, so your false conjecturing and accusations are noted)

, it's still weird for him to make it a public spectacle and have us privy to every moment of it. I said

I wouldn't mind him being lynched for that

, because I truly think that it's weird enough for him to suggest this that he might need to die. However, I certainly would never lead a wagon him him based solely on this.

The first italicized part makes your case almost irrelevant, but let's ignore that. The second part is where you're getting your assertion that she said it "twice" from. Now, I "wouldn't mind" you being lynched for your continual misrep of LLD, or the fact that none of your scumhunting thus far has felt genuine. However, that doesn't mean you need to be lynched OMG RIGHT NOW based on those things. She's saying that she feels that that action is extremely off, and further behavior akin to it would warrant a lynch.

And after that, her position has shifted to

I want to see Mastin's reads before I continue reads on him. Like I said, if Mastin's town, I'll know from his reads.

See the problem with your argument?

Oh dear god, shotgun looks scummy too. Why am I not a dayvig?

@ Thanks for the reads, red.

[NihilisticNinja]

Hez can eat rope. Gunny can live for now.

Why Hez and not Rack/Pine? I like them both much less.

[NihilisticNinja]

VOTE: Rack

I'd also be open to a Pine or Junpei wagon.

[NihilisticNinja]

Vote: Rack

Forgot to in my last post.

Not curious as to why I would be cool with a wagon on you?

[NihilisticNinja]

This is comically bad. And now I've read some threads.

If he isn't going away in the night and we deign not to lynch him until we decide that we aren't confusing networks of posts like these for stupidity that means shotty survives to LYLO as...this.

Until then, there will be havoc and repetitive calls to lynch this potential red herring. There will always be momentum detracted from other wagons by the mere fact that he exists, slowing the Day down and generally making this game more annoying.

If there is no solid scumread by the last few days of any Day, especially this one, we need to take up the chore of eradication.

But I'll ignore...this...until those moments of exigency.

So, essentially your saying that until we lynch Shotty his weird and scummy-looking comments will be utilized as a red herring by the scum in order to detract from other bandwagons... like you're doing right now? And you're going to ignore it, except for that part where you just posted paragraphs about it? Is there any particular reason you prefer the rack bandwagon to the shotty one? Because you never explained your rack vote.

You state you have "hangups" regarding the rack wagon. Care to explain what those are?

i'd doubt it. Though a SK or a small scum team thats trying to act like a vg might shoot him.

Adding WIFOM to your scummyness

nero needs to die

vote nero

The hell are you even talking about? And no. We're wagoning rack right now.

Nero- what are your current reads?

[NihilisticNinja]

I'm sorry that I've apparently offended you, that is not my intention. I do agree that my posts may come off as a bit aggressive and even abrasive, that is simply my playstyle. I'm honestly not a mean person IRL, so I'll try and tone it down a bit. Let me try and rephrase my questions, then.

What hangups do you have with the rack wagon?
How am I not processing the content of your posts? (Oh, and how do you feel justified attacking me when you just accused me of misrepping you without elaborating? Ok, sorry. Being a bit snappy again. I just HATE IT when people attack me without providing justification.)
Why are you not voting shotty?

[NihilisticNinja]

I don't know why, but your posts read as annoying. They cause this instinctive "ugh" reaction.

I assume that was to me? I'll try and cool down my attitude from now on. Rereading, I agree that I tend to be overaggressive. Need to calm down.

rack, Psyche- Any reads?

Macros- yeah, rack is an alt.

[NihilisticNinja]

Mastin's town reads feel manufactured to me- so many of them are based (or almost completely based) on associative tells, which while not meaningless per se, should not be the sole basis for a read on a player. They're also rather inconsistent (He finds Lambda and Maxous, whom I've only been friendly with throughout town due to interactions with me, but also finds vijay and Nero town due to interactions with me, when I've found vijay scummy and was initially antagonistic towards Nero). Can you explain, please?

And *sigh* at shotgun.

[NihilisticNinja]

VI-town, but I will be the first to admit that I fail at reading VIs.

[NihilisticNinja]

if you have trouble reading vi's why is he vi-town and nt null-vi?

It's a gut read, I can't really quantify it into words; that's why I have trouble reading them, there's nothing really in the posts themselves I can point to. The behavior just feels like that of town mislynch fodder to me, and not flailing scum.

[NihilisticNinja]

Problems with this post:
I didn't say scum would necessarily use shotty as a red herring. I said that shotty was one. This show of misrepping is interesting.

You're right. Technically, you did not say that the scum will use shotty as a red herring. I did infer this from the fact that you said that his presence would create "havoc and repetitive calls to lynch" and detract "momentum from other wagons". So you're saying that it's the townies that would be creating this havoc, and repeatedly calling to lynch him? Because that sounds more like things the scum would do to take advantage of VI shotty.

And let's look at the definition of the word "red herring". I used good ol' Wikipedia, but pretty much any resource should give you a similar definition.

A red herring is a clue or piece of information which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue. For example, in mystery fiction, where the identity of a criminal is being sought, an innocent party may be purposefully cast in a guilty light by the author through the employment of deceptive clues, false emphasis, "loaded" words or other descriptive tricks of the trade.

So for shotty to be a "red herring", there would have to be a party intending for it to be misleading/distract from the actual issue. Perhaps this was just a confusion brought about by word usage, but when I think of a "red herring", I think of one party being manipulated by another to make them look guilty.

And yes, as I posted, I'm going to ignore...that...except, obviously, for when I made this post about...that.

I suppose I don't understand the purpose of the post. You say "shotty is a distraction that we should try and ignore", yet you feel the need to make a post whose whole purpose is to say "HEY GUYS, THIS GUY IS DISTRACTING. IGNORE HIM.", when nobody else was saying anything about him, and thus not distracted by him. It just feels so unnecessary.

I prefer rack because his posts so far seem scummy while shotty's posts give no such signal. Besides, as I said, I'm limiting my attention to shotty to moments of uncertain exigency, as I noted clearly in the post you quoted.

Except for the time when you made an entire post dedicated to how distracting he would end up being. That's EXACTLY what I find so odd. Your words are contradicting your actions.

And in my post about hang-ups, the subject of the relevant phrase was the players as a whole, not rack. As someone with an attention span and capacity to read might observe.

As you may be aware, sometimes this thing called "misreading" occurs, where somebody misses/misreads a word/phrase in a post and think that they are talking about something else. I misread that sentence. I'm sorry.

Also, firestarter's post is awful. Almost all of it is IIoA that desperately tries to look like content, and the rest is base reads that are contradicted by the vote.

Also, redFF- I'd be willing to join a counterwagon. Who do you think it should be on?

[NihilisticNinja]

Actually, nah.

UNVOTE: rack
VOTE: Firestarter

Anybody care to join me?

[NihilisticNinja]

There's a whole literature on why rack is scummy. As an initial pre-analytical vote in the first couple of posts of D1, I think mine was a pretty good one.

Sorry, but no. Your vote was actually pretty bad. "Heya guys. I don't like some of you. Vote: rack."

I Worked very hard to acknowledge NN's questions, but they are too often built on false assumptions that make answering them so terribly trivial. NN's new set of questions works more to justify her first asking those questions than to actually investigate me. Either that, or her capacity for inference is shot. (Sorry if this comes off as an insult)

I'm sorry... but you worked hard? That was essentially just an ad-hom laced and accusation-juiced paragraph. And if it felt like the response was a justification- it partially was, because you were attacking me for even daring to ask the questions. But I actually did get a read on you from that response. Not a strong one, but it was definitely worth noting. So, now you're apparently the one who can't infer things from other people's posts.

And those reads are pretty weak, really. You only justify a couple of them, the people you picked seem extremely arbitrary (you remember Librarian, but not KK? You remember Red, but not Lambda?), and your vote doesn't make that much sense. Your Firestarter read is just a bunch of words that don't really say much of anything, but if you are convinced that rack is scum, why not go back to him again rather than a pressure vote on Maxous?

~~Fixed quote tags

[NihilisticNinja]

(EBWODP): Bah.

@Mod, can you patch up those quotetags?

Also, for the record, no offense taken. What's in-game is in-game.