Amstaad general discussion (almost there!)

[Kcdaspot]

And then shinanigans with women. Hilarious shinanigans.

[quadz08]

Especially so in a world of groin-faced people.

[Bub Bidderskins]

1) Good point. The actually being able to hit your target would be considered a part of the skill in whatever weapon you use for most of them I'd think. Why wouldn't mages require accuracy to hit long distance spells? Do you know how hard it is to make sure you swing your sword/axe/etc. at exactly the right place to hit your opponents.

2) So:
Aspect: Magick
skill: Aracene knowledge (Sorcery, Pyromancy/Areomancer)
skill: Spark (lvl 1 spell)

Becomes:
Aspect: Sorcerer (Pyromancer/Aeromancer)
skill: Spark (lvl 1 spell)

Correct?

3) What's preventing said archer from also wearing said 60 pound armour?

1) Exactly. Dividing up weapon attributes and skills into "accuracy" and "damage" would add a lot of complexity, and I what I really like about this system is its simplicity.

2) Okay, maybe I'm exactly sure how the mage attributes/skills work. Just for clarification, say I want to be a mage with pryomancer powers and a spell that using them. What would my character sheet look like under the current system?

3) Nothing, but if he decides to wear that heavy armour, it should have some sort of penalty to any movement rolls. For instance, if I decide to run a race without armour, I would probably run much faster than having to run that same race with armour on. Also, it gives a trade-off to wearing heavy armour. Do I get the strong armour that makes me slow or the light armour that doesn't protect as well? Otherwise I feel everybody will be wearing super heavy armour even if it doesn't make sense given their role (imagine a thief decked out like a knight trying to sneak around in the middle of the night).

[inspiratieloos]

@kcda, I believe you can use aspects to create a sidekick.

@Bub 3), I was agreeing with you, just pointing out that the problem was even slightly larger than you mentioned.

@mods: -1 to changing combat distance if you wear heavier armour than your opponent, another -1 if you are wearing something abnormally heavy (heavy vs. heavy both get -1) could work maybe?
Could you give an example of what a heavy mage character would look like in the characters thread.

So if I play a Passani who has a Language - Trade (Good) skill (say he has some experience in public speaking) I have
Aspect Orator -> skill: Language - Trade (Good)
Human -> Racial skill: Language - Trade (Great)
Huamn (Passani) -> Racial Skill: Language - Trade (Fair)
Does that give me Language - Trade (Legendary)? What if my aspects gave me a Great or even Superb skill, would I have Legendary+1?

Also atm everyone naturally had an average skill in all languages, this should be enough to overhear a conversation, maybe give everyone a mediocre or poor skill in the languages they don't speak?

[CooLDoG]

If you do not speak a language or know anything about a language how can you have anything but abysmal in it?

Can I actually have a low (not 0) probability of understanding, say, Chinese even though I haven't studied it at all? Answer: No, it is literally impossible for me to understand someone speaking Chinese.

[Bub Bidderskins]

@kcda, I believe you can use aspects to create a sidekick.

@Bub 3), I was agreeing with you, just pointing out that the problem was even slightly larger than you mentioned.

@mods: -1 to changing combat distance if you wear heavier armour than your opponent, another -1 if you are wearing something abnormally heavy (heavy vs. heavy both get -1) could work maybe?
Could you give an example of what a heavy mage character would look like in the characters thread.

Oh . I was thinking that certain armours would just give a flat -1 to any movement related tasks (like running, climbing, or changing distance in battle). Maybe some very heavy armours could give a -2.

[inspiratieloos]

If you do not speak a language or know anything about a language how can you have anything but abysmal in it?

Can I actually have a low (not 0) probability of understanding, say, Chinese even though I haven't studied it at all? Answer: No, it is literally impossible for me to understand someone speaking Chinese.

You might if Chinese is one of the major languages spoken in your country. Personally I'm comparing it to my knowledge of French (had it in high school, passed with 5.6/10, haven't spoken it after that) .
I don't think you'd be abysmal, you'd probably be able to pick up a few words.

Considering everyone has a Fair (+1) in Trade and I'm pretty sure it is meant as everyone's second language, we can say that holding a normal conversation probably requires a Mediocre (> -2 roll) result (it works most (94%) of the time). Everyone also has Great in their own language so you can always understand that (You pass even on a -4)
So how often should you fail a conversation in a language you only know bits and pieces of? 3/4 of the time? If you have a natural skill of -2 (Poor) you'd be able to understand someone directly speaking to you 38% of the time, at -3 (Terrible) 6% of the time. So I'd say giving everyone a Poor skill in understanding the race languages (Elvish, Tiktuk, Passani, Dwarfish, Slith) and Abysmal in any non-standard language would be balanced.

@bub, I'd say anyone using a specific type of armour should have to conditioning to have normal movement in it. Sprinting might be a problem, but not running relatively short distances. Climbing in anything that is not specifically a very light outfit should be a daunting task. Changing distance is mostly dependant on the relative weight of the opponents' equipment, unless both are wearing overly encumbering armour.

[T-Bone]

Okay, magic is simple. (kinda)

There are two components to casting a spell. First you ability to actually cast it successfully. A Mage under stress might have a harder time casting a spell then say someone who has a ton of time to be cautious. Plus there are hand motions, incantations, spell components, etc. So this is probably where you'd roll your spell skill.

The second component is the range. If this is a touch spell, then you need to be able to physically touch a target. Now if I see someone casting a spell at me, I'm definitely gonna try to avoid it. Now depending on how combat resolves, I suspect I'd roll a dodge skill or something. But that means that my opponent needs to roll and opposing skill. He already rolled his spell skill to cast the spell without any problems. So it's a matter of us wanting another skill to specifically use a spell in combat. "Spell-Throwing" is a common catch all skill for this purpose.

Being a magic user should not be as simple as taking one or two skills. No, a mage needs an entirely new skill set. We're talking skills like concentration, meditation, scry, spell-throwing, cryptography, knowledge of various things, the spells themselves, etc. etc.

[quadz08]

Ok, so I'm mildly confused. Maybe I'm just naive, but why should learning magic be any different than learning swordplay, or archery, or music, or science, or thievery? I don't understand why it should require multiple rolls OR any entirely different skillset.

[T-Bone]

It's a balancing thing more than anything. Magic is incredibly powerful, there's no way it should be as simple as swinging a sword. Any idiot can do that. Not everyone can cast magic.

[CooLDoG]

Well at that point languages would be sorta like dialects. Sorta.

[quadz08]

Mmmm... ok, that's fair, I suppose.

[CooLDoG]

quick question:
How is this not a valid skill pyramid?
3
222
11111

And this is:

4
33
222
1111

???

[inspiratieloos]

I'm pretty sure that's an error in the mechanics file.

[DeathNote]

Yeah both of those would be valid.

[CooLDoG]

Not according to your rules release. I looked at that thing trying to figure it out for about 30 minutes before I posted that....

[DeathNote]

It was a simple translation mistake from getting it from our docs to this site. However, it doesn't seem to let me fix :/

The two fours are suppose to be over the last pyramid, not the third.

@Everyone- Unfortunitly, this is hard for me to process as I imagine it is hard for you. The major issue is that while I am great with flavor writing and moderating issues, I am not so good with logistics and mechanics. I am understanding the concerns and share them but unable to figure out how to go about fixing them. So here is what I purpose:

Let us make a list of requested changes that I will post in the OP and once we agree they are balanced, then we shall continue from there. I will check in and offer my two cents, but for the most part, I enjoy just reading what you as the players are coming up with. Just please make sure to bold your purposed changes.

Some examples of issues to fix are:
Armor (general/movement/ect.)
Balancing Gold
Spells
Class vs Skill choices

[CooLDoG]

500 gateway error? Yeah... I feel your pain.

[inspiratieloos]

So, who is in charge of the mechanics. The 'right' solution for these things really depends on how you want the game to be played.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I actually think that this game is very close to happening. There are only a very few things with the rules that could be tweaked a little, but overall they look very good. I think the main thing at this point is to get a detailed description of the setting of Amstaad.

[inspiratieloos]

Btw, have you considered just adopting either the 'Brass Compass', 'Great Lighthouse' or 'Sorcery on a Budget' systems form the FATE guidebook (pdf pages 51, 56 and 58)? All of these avoid the 'have to spend a skill point for every spell I might want to cast' problem.

Great Lighthouse seems to be the most flexible, you have 1 aspect in the preferred type of magic, giving you unlimited 'cantrips'. You can spend a skill point to purchase a 'stunt' which comes down to 'one bigger/instant effect per day per stunt'.

Spoiler: Great Lighthouse

So the character would have
Aspect: Pyromancy
Skill: Pyromancy x2 (good)
[2 other skills]

This allows him to create and control relatively small flames, have some protection from fire, etc. (after a check) all day long.
On a later aspect he turns in 2 skills for 2 stunts
Aspect: Pyromancy
Skill Pyromancy (good, 2 stunts)
[4 other skills]

He can now, twice during a day, use a larger effect (throwing a fireball, setting something on fire during combat, etc.), he still rolls with a good skill.
You could exchange stunts for a 'magical endurance' skill, allowing someone to use it for all his spells instead of just a single type, but it would be inside the skill pyramid requiring you to also have multiple other skills.

Brass Compass is closest to the current system. You have aspects in your preferred discipline then skills in the type of expression, you can cast any spell within your limits.

Spoiler: Brass Compass

You need an aspect in the magic skill equal to the scope of what you want to do, then you roll for the skill you have in the type of effect you want (Evocation, Summoning, Mastery, Dispelling). You can do pretty much anything within this range.
A possible disadvantage is that a full mage character could conceivably annihilate any form of opposition.

Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer (officially: Initiate of Fire)
Skill: Evocation x2 (good)
Skill: Mastery (fair)
Skill: Summoning (fair)
Could consistently throw embers (finger sized) in combat, could control finger sized flames (can consistently control sparks) or make a permanent finger sized flame.

Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer x6 (Legendary)
Skill: Evocation x4 (Superb)
Skill: Mastery x3 (Great)
Skill: Summoning x3 (Great)
Skill: Dispelling x2 (Good)
[maxed skill pyramid]

Can consistently throw human sized fireballs in combat (every turn, pass on roll >= -1) could technically throw (+2), create (+3), control (+3), dispel (+4, +3 on magical flames) castle sized fireballs.

Aspects:
Pyromancer x2
Hydromancer x2
Aeromnacer x2
Lithomancer x2
Skills:
Skill: Evocation x3 (Great)
Skill: Mastery x4 (Superb)
Skill: Summoning x4 (Great)
Skill: Dispelling x3 (Good)
[Maxed skill pyramid]

Can continuously (every round, almost guaranteed pass) control opponents body parts (open hand to drop weapon, fall down when moving, etc. in addition to the normal fireball, gust, water whip and earth wall spells.

Sorcery on a Budget is completely different and very simple, you have an aspect and skill in your chosen field and the difficulty of a spell is determined by how hard it would be to create as a movie effect (basically if the average stage magician could do it its Fair, if you'd require a multi million special effects team its Epic-Legendary). Although this one is mostly meant for settings in which the general populace doesn't believe in magic.

Spoiler: Sorcery on Budget

It mostly speaks for itself.
Character:
Aspect: Pyromancer
Skill: Pyromancer x2 (good)
[Other skills]

Can create a flame effect that could be done in a movie with some time to prepare and creative camera work (larger effects can be done, but at risk of failing)

[DeathNote]

Do not worry about quests/city map/Amstaad in general. What the community will need to help with is establishing a proper set of mechanics. At the moment, no one is in charge of them unless Lord Mhork is claiming that title.]

PRE EDIT: That is something to consider. I am not sure what the primary issue with our spell system is right now. Care to break it down for me?

[quadz08]

I think that Brass Compass makes the most sense to me; Great Lighthouse is confusing as hell.

[T-Bone]

Actually I have a solution for magic that I'll take from another game and adapt it to this system. With a few changes to the core mechanics, it'll make magic simpler and balanced. But, I'll send you a PM about that DN

[inspiratieloos]

@DN, The problem was that any spell you'd want to use costs you a skill, thus a mage has to sacrifice massive amounts of experience to have even a little bit of a varied repertoire.

@quadz,
Brass Compass is closest to a 'standard' magic system, the thing is that power scales with aspects so it allows for dedicated mages to be absurdly powerful, a starting character can already cast Legendary level spells (especially considering he also had 6-8 aspect points to add points to his rolls). It is also very rigid, not really allowing for other disciplines besides sorcery without significant modification. The system is viable, but has some significant problems.

Great Lighthouse is almost exactly the same as the current system, except that 1 skill = infinite uses of 1 specific spell, becomes 1 skill = 1 non-cantrip spell/day.

Magic Budget system is really simple, but not really applicable to the setting. Being a mage also doesn't any more dedication than any other skill. On second thought, I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

@T-Bone, can you post it in public? Comments from other people can be very useful.

@DN, maybe a dedicated mechanics topic can be useful (or even a topic per debated mechanic). Especially when you publish something new which will spawn it's own discussion.