Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

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Post Post #5 (isolation #0) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:31 am

Post by chamber »

I was throwing around the idea of merit based achievements instead of the classical way scummies are handled with someone over aim the other day. The entire process for awarding them atm seems flawed because I think judges are rarely as invested as they'd need to be to make strong choices, and the nomination process requires you actually get nominated for a given award. Examples of achievements being something like winning > x% of your town games, winning > y% of your scum games, never getting mislynched as town, never getting lynched as mafia, being in a game where you were only on scum lynches. I'm sure you guys can think of more. The idea would be objective awards that could be handed out to any number of people.

Issues with this are the current method of display of scummies, and actually tracking it all, but hopefully that would be worked out on the backed of the site by next year (which if I understand correctly is what you are taking suggestions for?)
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Post Post #8 (isolation #1) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:43 am

Post by chamber »

In post 7, IceGuy wrote:
In post 5, chamber wrote:I was throwing around the idea of merit based achievements instead of the classical way scummies are handled with someone over aim the other day. The entire process for awarding them atm seems flawed because I think judges are rarely as invested as they'd need to be to make strong choices, and the nomination process requires you actually get nominated for a given award. Examples of achievements being something like winning > x% of your town games, winning > y% of your scum games, never getting mislynched as town, never getting lynched as mafia, being in a game where you were only on scum lynches. I'm sure you guys can think of more. The idea would be objective awards that could be handed out to any number of people.


The problem is that this kind of awards would lead to bad incentives, such as not joining a game when you're above your win rate or never got lynched, not replacing into "doomed" slots, getting modkilled or vigkilled instead of lynched, not getting on wagons after you've been on scum lynches, and so on.

It's also an entirely different beast whether you've only been on scum lynches in a 5p vengeful or in a 25 player Large Theme.


I'm not too worried about negative incentives, people should play mafia to play mafia, the awards should be secondary. We can set guidlines for different ones , like it needing to be a large game for the only scum lynches award, and you needing to have been in at least 10 games as a given alignment for the > x% win rate ones.


edit: even if we only switch to doing most of the awards like this and still left some classic ones, it would allow the msot invested judges to be concentrated and actually do a good job.
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Post Post #11 (isolation #2) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 am

Post by chamber »

In post 9, IceGuy wrote:
In post 8, chamber wrote:
I'm not too worried about negative incentives, people should play mafia to play mafia, the awards should be secondary.


What people should do and what people do are often two different things.

I'd consider such awards borderline to outside game influences, and they're banned for a reason.


Surely these awards are less of an outside influence than the best claim and best gambit awards you were recently championing?
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Post Post #15 (isolation #3) » Thu May 03, 2012 6:04 am

Post by chamber »

If its out of your hands, thats fine. I mostly wanted to get the idea out there, because I do think its a good one. Subjectivity and apathy make the current scummies often meaningless imo.

I already make choices about what games to play in and who to play against based on other factors, this would just be altering the metric (and probably not altering the metric at all in my case but ~). I don't see an issue with that. The potential issues would be someone playing differently within a game, and awards can be tailored to minimize that, I suspect best role claim and best gambit would have far greater impact than any I suggested would. But they aren't actually scummies anymore so using that as a counter point is probably not worthwhile.

preview:
Backend tracking is already being worked on, to some degree, on and off. This would be more of an incentive to actually finish it.

I don't think any awards I suggested would cause people to intentionally lose games and frankly it was a list i made off the to pof my head it can be worked out later.

This is a fair enough point, but you could simply apply a rule like awards are only for games you start in. Allowing people to replace in for the 'unranked' effect zor was talking about. This could increase the replacement pool by abusing the motivation of people who care enough to not join games regularly to protect their achievement.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #4) » Thu May 03, 2012 6:32 am

Post by chamber »

In post 16, IceGuy wrote:
In post 15, chamber wrote:
This is a fair enough point, but you could simply apply a rule like awards are only for games you start in.


In this case, people will not play (or play under an alt) if they haven't been lynched.

All in all, I simply see no point in those awards, and a bunch of disadvantages.


Alts are tracked on the backend, so thats easily subverted. You can have a minimum number of games player to get the achievement. If people care enough to not play (I don't think they will) then they can not play.

Your last points lack of specificity makes it hard to answer. The point is to reward good play in an objective way. Be specific with disadvatages I'll continue to show that you are wrong.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #5) » Thu May 03, 2012 4:49 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 44, Oversoul wrote:Please for the love of good do not rush to implement this into the site.


Uh. I code stuff, but only with the OK of admins. Back end tracking is going to happen and has been in the works for sometime. Achievements are an idea I brought up just now and would only do if it got oked. I'm not just going to make it and tell everyone to fuck off or something.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #6) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:56 pm

Post by chamber »

I think scummies as they are are deeply flawed, if no one else is with me on that then I see why you'd be so adverse to my suggestion.
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Post Post #123 (isolation #7) » Tue May 08, 2012 10:39 am

Post by chamber »

In post 122, Amrun wrote:I also thought of chamber. He was in mind when I said people I'd need to research, etc.


The amount of work I've done comapared to how much MeMe did. Maybe if I'm still doing work for the site in 5 years.
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Post Post #126 (isolation #8) » Tue May 08, 2012 11:55 am

Post by chamber »

In post 125, Nero Cain wrote:I don't understand the Rising Star award. Are there not enough new players to justify having a best newbie award?


I think the issue was with the name, players could have the best newbie award above their name like 2.5 ears into their carrier in the extreme cases, thats just silly.
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Post Post #619 (isolation #9) » Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:16 pm

Post by chamber »

I think the better fix for the best newbie award without considering increased workload was to just hand it out twice a year. Then at most someones been playing for ~9 months when they get it and keep it until 15months. Seems passable.
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Post Post #621 (isolation #10) » Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:35 am

Post by chamber »

Better yet still might be to reward them with something thats even more responsive, like a merit based micro badge system.
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Post Post #657 (isolation #11) » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:57 pm

Post by chamber »

Calling it a popularity contest might not be fair, on the other hand I glance in once and a while and I feel like awards rarely have meaningful thought out discussion. I suspect people don't even fully read every game they are judging much less do so critically as they would if they were a player. And I don't hold that against them cause having to do that for 20 games or something is terrible, but it does undermine the process a bit.
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Post Post #695 (isolation #12) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:35 am

Post by chamber »

So, I don't see these changes fundamentally changing the amount of work judges are willing to put in. I could be wrong, we can find out this year. I think just taking a different approach completely is probably better though, like a peoples choice version instead of the oscars.
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Post Post #718 (isolation #13) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:54 pm

Post by chamber »

I wonder if there is room for some amount of middle ground with something like a Best Synergy award. Allow it to apply to some subset of a team that plays well without having to include everyone.
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Post Post #721 (isolation #14) » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:00 pm

Post by chamber »

If your assumption is that half the winning team is getting the award it might do that, I was thinking more in the range of 2-4 players.
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Post Post #735 (isolation #15) » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:14 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 734, Venmar wrote:I don't think people go out of their way to try to win awards on this site because people could have have a great performance or mod a great game and they could go unrecognized; in my experience a lot of people involved in these games don't care enough to nominate others, don't even know about the scummies, or it doesn't occur to them to do so. If someone takes their time to nominate someone, there's a chance it's because the nominee is well known or the person nominating is a friend of the nominee so idk, it does feel like a popularity contest at times.


Have you considered any measures to change that?
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Post Post #739 (isolation #16) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Post by chamber »

Them attempting to approach it objectively doesn't make it objective. People are very easily biased.
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Post Post #743 (isolation #17) » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:20 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 742, Venmar wrote:
In post 739, chamber wrote:Them attempting to approach it objectively doesn't make it objective. People are very easily biased.

-shrug- Let me know when you figure out the solution to fixing normal human behaviour.


When you acknowledge it you can take measures to limit it. When you pretend like it doesn't exist you can't.
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Post Post #781 (isolation #18) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 777, singersigner wrote:I dunno, I mean, this is a really cool thing that I think people volunteer [a lot of] their time doing and try to keep everyone happy with the results that plenty of people will inevitably be upset with in some way or another. Changes happen; if they don't work, they don't work and it may or may not go back to the old standard. I think the SSC has done a lot for the site in the name of entertainment/often petty acknowledgement so whatever works, works.

Thanks for all your hard work, guys. <3


I think that Judging is a pretty terrible job, and that doing any work for this site tends to be mostly thankless, so although I don't particularly agree with their choices here, I was mostly on your side. At least they recognized that something needed to be done and made a change, and I'm still willing to see how that plays out.

On the other hand, I think them teaming up to bully nacho and fferlyt is pretty terrible.
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Post Post #799 (isolation #19) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:59 pm

Post by chamber »

In post 796, xRECKONERx wrote:Nacho, do you feel ganged up on and bullied?


You absolutely were and don't pretend for a second that you don't know it. I don't think you were being particularly abusive or abrasive relative to how bad you can be when you really mean it, but you were berating people over expressing their opinion. I know nacho and fferlyt can take it, it doesn't mean they should have to.
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