Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[mastin2]

Alright. Let's try something different.

Everyone:

That's every single other player in the game.
I want, in your own words, your summary of how the game has gone so far.
At the same time, I'd also like you to tell me how many scum you think are in the game--I know this game is a lil' unusual, but I imagine that there is a scum faction out there.
And of course, who they are--not a single person; I want you to give me a whole team. Plus of course the reasoning you think they're scum together.

Anyone:

Are there any claims I should be made aware of?

[mastin2]

(Uh, the mod *did* announce I replaced in, right? I've got Maniacle's role PM, so I should be fine to play, right? )

[mastin2]

MASTIN [foxace?] IS SCUM AMIRITE?

Wouldn't know, yet. Unlike many games I replace into, I'm actually replacing in blind, here. Haven't read a single post. I can check the first three pages in the original thread, the first three pages in the reboot, and the last three pages (maybe also the last three pages in the original) to get speedreads, if you'd like, but I was hoping people'd give me an answer to my questions, and that their different answers would help shed some light on things.

Heck, I'll do that now, though it'll be in a QT so that I don't spoil people's answers to my questions.

[mastin2]

Having just downloaded the files, looks like there were only five pages when the game crashed, so it's not nearly as much reading as I was expecting. So looks like I'll do all five, plus three, plus last-three, plus ISOs of those who seem important. (Which right now is AV who's talking to me and Foxace, who AV says is scum. )

[mastin2]

Everyone:

That's every single other player in the game.

I want, in your own words, your summary of how the game has gone so far. At the same time, I'd also like you to tell me how many scum you think are in the game--I know this game is a lil' unusual, but I imagine that there is a scum faction out there. And of course, who they are--not a single person; I want you to give me a whole team. Plus of course the reasoning you think they're scum together.

New page, so making sure people see this. Off to work.

[mastin2]

01. Pine
02. Empking
03. AurorusVox
04. PeregrineV
05. Y u no scum (moneybags)
06. MaguaofIllusion
07. LynchMePls

(Being replaced)

08.

ManiacalLemon

mastin2
09. brizingre1
10. greenknight
11. CooLDoG
12. trekker
13. Tammy
14. Feysal
15.

Skenvoy

BBMolla
16. Shadoweh
17.

Rang Tangler

kondi2424
18. Norman
19.

Malee

Jackal711
20. Lord Mhork
21. Zdenek
22. Mastermind of Sin
23. Shadow1psc
24.

xvart

Foxace36
25.

Skeletor

Guy_Named_Riggs

sorgster

(Being replaced...again.)

26. Haze

From the mod's Iso, this is what I can gather is who is in the game. Did I miss any?

[mastin2]

post your qt posts here

I fully intend to, once I get everyone to answer my questions.

[mastin2]

Most of the way through orig-page-one. So far, got reads on eleven of the posters. Taking a slight break, but I'll be back; I think I might actually have a direction to go in.

[mastin2]

Also, AV, to clarify--you think Tammy's scum, right?

[mastin2]

Not many people seem to be paying attention to my request. I can maybe understand the summary taking time (though it really shouldn't), and it's something which in the longrun I don't really *need* (since I'll be reading everything eventually), but it's something I'd like to see, regardless. But even if *that* is too difficult, it shouldn't be difficult to answer how many scum you think are in the game; it's a simple number. The who and the why are things which by this point, you've probably already done, so if your "who is scum and why" is just a bunch of quotes, that'd be fine with me; I just want to see it all at the same time, in the present, rather than gradually, in the past.

So we can talk later; answers first, please.

[mastin2]

Arg. I'm on page three, and I've only got two strong scumreads. It should be *numberinmyqt*. I'm probably going to have to work via POE. Look at who's town, eliminate 'em, and look at the leftovers to see what makes sense.

[mastin2]

So it's up to 21/25. I'm missing reads on Pine, Empking, trekker, and Norman.

But here's the good news--I think I mighta found five scum.

And AV's gonna love this:

Foxace, via xvart, is among them.

Unvote, VOTE: Foxace36.

[mastin2]

If you couldn't tell, I've read all five of the original pages by now. I just need to get started on the newer ones. Since I have reads on more people than I do not, this shouldn't take too long to finish, though obviously I'm not reading all 39. Basically just confirming a few things quickly.

[mastin2]

Ah, screw it. I'm not even through page two, and I can tell you everything you need to know.

TOWN:
AV
Norman
Feysal
MoI
OtherShadow
Zdenek
BBMolla

PROB-TOWN:
PV
Lord Mhork
Y u no scum
brizingre1
Shadoweh

kondi

SCUM:
LynchMePls needs to have his request fulfilled.
Tammy
sorgster
Jackal711 (via Malee)
Foxace26
MoS

POE TOWN:
greenknight
Cooldog
trekker
Empking
Pine

Very roughly in order.

[mastin2]

Though that said, I'd still like to get the names in "POE TOWN" confirmed as town, so will continue reading as basically a formality.

[mastin2]

Not Voting (4) - Moneybags, BBmolla, Lord Mhork, Norman

Close to deadline (well, theoretically, anyway ), this is bad. (I

might

be wrong about my townread on one of these people due to this, but I'm not sure. They were all fairly strong townreads from what I've seen, and sometimes there are justifiable reasons to not be voting.)

Norman (3) - LynchMePls, Shadow1psc, CooLDoG

And this is very bad. (This, on the other hand, quite clearly has scum--one of my scumreads, plus a "POE town".)

But none of these are worse than...

INDIVIDUAL VOTERS: (6) - greenknight, sorgster, Mastermind of Sin, Feysal, Tammy, kondi2424

...These. 'Coincidentally',

three

of my six scumreads are on here, along with one of my POE-town, and another person who's my weakest townread.

The remaining scum (Fox voting himself, obviously, along with Jackal) are in the obvious spot, but the above people really need death as well.

---

TOWN:
Zdenek

PROB-TOWN:
PV
Lord Mhork
Y u no scum

SCUM:
Tammy
MoS

Reverse-order. MoS is always a rather suspicious-looking player (you need only look at a couple of MoS's posts to see that they reek), I'll admit. But I've seen MoS as town, and I know MoS's town play. This is not it. Not at all. This is scum-MoS.
Tammy also should require no explanation. Tammy's posts in the original were horribad, and gave me an instant scumread. When I saw Tammy's posts in regards to AV, it only confirmed what I had already suspected.

Y u no scum I'll admit started out as a weak scumread. (As in, "null, scumlean". Exact words from my QT.) But over time, as I saw more of their posts, I realized that it was possible they were town. Then it looked like they were strongly town. And then I double-checked why I was suspicious of them, and found that it amounted to little more than bad gut, and that when looking at their play overall, they were most likely town.

Lord Mhork was similar, starting at "null, townlean". Yet after seeing Mhork's series of following posts, he became quite obv-town. I was still a liiiiittle bit cautious of him, but he was still incredibly town overall.

PV is one of those players who always looks a lil' bit scummy, I have to admit. And truth be told, I probably put him slightly too high on the townlist. But overall, what I saw reminded me distinctly of PV's townplay, rather than his scumplay, hence my townread on him.

Zdenek is as far as I'm concerned close to confirmed town. His posts were awesome. I quite frankly don't see what the issue with him is.


Now granted, I haven't read the entire thread, but I sincerely doubt my reads will be changing that much.

Oh, and for the record, Pine is one of the names who's moved from "POE town" to legitimately town. The others, still workin' on it.

[mastin2]

@mastin: Why am I just stuck in the middle of nowhere on your list?

Weakest townread. I'd have to double-check the QT to make sure, but I think it's 'cause your slot was close-to-dead-null-but-with-a-*very*-slight-townlean. And I haven't read any of your posts, yet. (I think I'm on page two or three. I'm a lil' bit busy dealing with other matters, but I'll get around to reading the rest soon enough.)

we have 1 and a half days left

Actually, 2 and a half. 2 days, 12 hours. Mod extended it.

@FoxaceClaim?

He claimed, already. Lawful Good Commoner.

You should be ashamed. The guy who hasn't read the thread knows more about the present situation than you do.

[mastin2]

Guys, I know some of you might have a sense of humor which is a little bit strange, but a Zdenek wagon makes a really bad April Fools' Day joke.

Zdenek is not getting lynched today.

Or any day, if I have my way.

Fox is.

[mastin2]

No, he is. This is his town play. I've seen him do everything he's done in this game as town. Not only is he town by meta, he's also town by play; his posts make a lot of sense, he says a lot of good things, he's scumhunting legitimately, has good suspects, raises lots of valid points...

Seriously, he's town.

[mastin2]

Not to mention, he's got at MOST 5 votes.

Fox has 10.

And I will push HARD to make sure Zdenek doesn't gain any more. He. is. not. scum. He's one of the most obv-town players in this game, and has been from the moment I saw him posting as I'd expect him to if he were town.

[mastin2]

1. Yup meta is complete bullshit.

Not in my experience. I might not have that many games with Zdenek (I can only think of two or three), but I have enough to know the difference between his town self and his scum self without looking at the games.

This is his town self.

2. Um whut? Scum-hunting legitimately?

Yes. You need only look at his early posts to tell this--old thread and new.

1. What points that are 'good' has he raised. I want post references.

This'll take a while to compile. 'Cause quite frankly, I've agreed with almost everything he's said; it'd be easier to list the points he's raised that I DON'T agree with.

2. He has good suspect? Um this is multi-scum so even if that was true (which it isn't IMO) it's not a Town tell. List his good suspects.

Let's compare.

- MoI
- Tammy
- MoS

- Foxace
- Empking
- LMP

His list...

LynchMePls
Tammy
sorgster
Jackal711 (via Malee)
Foxace26
MoS

...To my list. Four names in common. Plus, of those not the same, he has one as Empking, who quite frankly I'm not getting a townread on, with him only being town via POE. Meaning the only, ONLY read I disagree with is his scumread on you.

Like I said. I REALLY don't see what the issue with Zdenek is. He's awesome and incredibly town.

[mastin2]

Yes, you are going to need to do this. I want on record what of his stances you 'agree' with. No, not passively showing what you disagree with. I want you committing to actual stances you will defend.

Alright. Let's do it the easy way. What Zdenek has said which I don't agree with, via his ISO. Going most recent to earliest.

...

*Has reached up to ISO 30*

...Nope, nothing yet.

Oh, right. ISO 30 has a MoI attack, which as noted I disagree with as I think you're town. So nothing I haven't already mentioned. Moving further up...and further up...seeing nothing different...I suppose ISOs 3 and above I mostly seem to disagree with, but then again, so does current-Zdenek.

There's virtually zero things in there which I disagree with, as I said before, soyeah.

Do you not agree that selective taking single sentances from posts to show 'scum play' and ignoring whole paragraphs that counteract his accusations is scummy as hell?

In theory? It should be. In practice? No, heck no; if anything, it's a towntell.

Also Mastin - you dodged the point about this being Multi-scum and having overlapping scum reads not being a Town tell. Why is that?

He actually divided his scumreads into teams, mind you--a feat not even I have done yet. I had ideas (LMP and Tammy being on different teams among them), but as I've not read the whole game (19 and counting), I am not sure. He on the other hand quite logically could explain who and why the members of each team are who he thinks they are--if anything, his scumreads are *better* than mine. If that doesn't make him town, then what would?

[mastin2]

You know, MoI, for someone who seems to be so adament that selective quoting and whatnot is scummy, you seem to be rather fond of it yourself.

Spoiler: Ranting

Um no. Cut the bullshit.

Either quote or link to specific points of Zdenek’s which you think are Pro-Town or get shot overnight. Your choice.

I explained, rather clearly, that I agreed with everything I didn't specifically point out. So if you want me to, then I will. literally. quote. every. post. zdenek. has. made. I will show exactly why everything he says is so town, and only a few things he's said (the things I specifically pointed out) are things I don't agree with. I'll make the longest wall this game has seen so far in doing so, devoted to a single player, about why they are not scum...

...Or you can save me the trouble accept that Zdenek. is. town. I'm dead serious. Now I'd rather not waste the time on it. I've got another 20+ pages to read in this game, plus plenty of other obligations to attend to. I'd rather not make such a large distraction, when my time is best spent elsewhere. But if you continue to MORONICALLY push through this absurd lynch on Zdenek, then I will. not. let. it. go. through.

Again cut the bullshit. It’s not a Town-tell and your pussy-footing around whether it is actually scummy or not is noted.

The reason I said what I said should be quite clear. It's something which by all rights should be a scumtell. It's something when you see, you'd think that it'd come from scum. You'd think that no pro-town player would be able to twist words in such ways.

Yet when I think about it, in all my games, I don't think I've ever seen it from scum. I've seen it plenty of times from town. Heck, I've DONE it as town. I've seen plenty of players do it as town--most importantly, I've seen Zdenek play

this exact same way before as town

--but never from scum, not in my over 50 games here. Hence, why it's a towntell.

And once again I know you are dodging the point I keep bringing up – in a multiscum game the opposite scum team has EVERY incentive to ‘authentically’ scum hunt the opposing faction for Town cred. You know this. You utilized it in that Large Normal Werewolf game some time ago when you were scum. That you keep trying to avoid commenting on it says plenty to me about your alignment.

And you're not listening to me. I've answered already. Sure, scum legitimately scumhunt in a multiscum game, but that wasn't the point. If that were the case, I could call any player attacking anyone in the game scummy, for any reason because "it's multiball; they could be scum hunting other scum!". Obviously, that's not the case. No, there's a difference between town scumhunting and scum scumhunting, especially in this situation, where the scumteams can actually win without eliminating the other--in other words, they have *less* incentive to legitimately scumhunt than in a normal multiscum game. Scum scumhunting in multiball have particular patterns, patterns which Zdenek doesn't fall into. Not at all. He doesn't fit anything about it--not in a normal scumhunting game. Not in a normal multiball game. Not in this multiscum game. He doesn't fit the pattern of scum at all. His hunting has been strong, it has looked legitimate, it has been everything I would expect to see from someone who is town. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are half a dozen other points I wanted to raise in response to this section of your argument ALONE, but I can't remember any of them off the top of my head and I'm leaving to eat supper shortly.

And that's not even going into Zdenek's posts specifically, in detail, like you seem so adament to make me do. Like you want to force the waller within me out. From just the GENERAL picture, I can ramble on endlessly and bring up point after point after point as to why Zdenek is not scum, not in this game. But as I said. I'd rather not unleash that beast upon you all. I'm for some reason in a sour mood all of a sudden, and when I do that, my walls tend to get worse, and they turn nasty.

Now with that out of the way...

@Mastin: You agree with everything Zdenek has said regarding Tammy?

What I've read, yes. I haven't read the entire thread, and did an ISO of Zdenek, so I can't say for certain that it's all true. But what I have seen has seemed solid. Every time the Zdenek vs Tammy fight flares up, Tammy's posts seem horribad, and Zdenek's seem like the voice of reason to me. There's a reason Zdenek's becoming one of my strongest townreads and Tammy's my second-strongest scumread.

Fox: Refer to my vote.
Zdenek: Over my dead body.

[mastin2]

I feel like I shouldn't have spoilered my rant primarily aimed at MoI, since I get the feeling nobody has read it. But I'm going to fight that Zdenek lynch tooth and nail if I have to. I will try every trick in the book to get you guys off of him if I have to. And I do mean EVERY technique I have. You've brought this upon yourselves, because you've been ignoring me. Needless to say, I'm ticked off right now; I do NOT like it when people ignore me, ESPECIALLY because that typically means I'm right.

I would consider both foxace and zd as reasonable lynch candidates.

Are they the only ones you'd consider, though? Who'd you prefer more?

Are they the only candidates you'd consider?

What's your opinion on Tammy?
MoS?
LMP and replacement?
sorgster's slot?

I think we have the time now because we're needing another replacement, and I'd rather have this lynch.
VOTE: Zdenek

Let's say you couldn't lynch Zdenek. Who would you choose in his place?

Ignoring deadline, as you said. Pretend we had all the time in the world. Who would it be?

What do you think of the players I listed above in my inquiries to brizingre?

Fox's ISO is town as crap.

Zd's is less town.
VOTE: Zdnek

Am I correct in assuming that "less town" still means that you see Zdenek as being town, Haze?

If so, then why the wagon on him? Who else would you choose, besides Fox who (apparently) is more town than Zdenek?

If not, then why'd you say Zdenek was "less town", rather than "incredibly scummy" or something along those lines?

Let's go, folks. Drop a vote on one of these two. Failing to be on one of these two wagons will be scrutinized tomorrow.

So, Pine, why exactly when we've been granted a deadline extension are you pushing so hard a "one or the other" dilemma?

What makes Zdenek more likely to be scum to you?

I could happily go with a zde lynch. I actually think it might be slightly better than a fox lynch.

Explain.

What makes a Zdenek lynch better than a fox lynch?

And why are you subscribing to the "one or the other" dilemma with said deadline extension?

unvote, vote: zde... obv, massive TV scum is obv. I think that pretty much sums up what I think of zde. Non contributor after about page 10 due to only talking about tammy.

Why are you saying his posts have only been on Tammy? He's talked plenty about others, giving nice reasoning on them--ISO 30 is a perfect example, where he gives his best guess at both scumteams, which showed six names as scum, along with reasoning for each and every one of them. That's FAR from focusing only on Tammy, as you would paint it to be.

But let's be generous and say you meant "primarily talking about Tammy", which admittedly is true: what makes that not contributing content? What makes attacking Tammy to be useless? Why isn't it worth anything to you?

And let's take it a step further: what makes the action scummy? Do you think it's a scumVscum fight? TownvScum fight? If so, what makes Tammy's seeming obsession with defense any better than Zdenek's non-stop offense? Since Tammy has been on the defensive pretty much all the way through the game, doing JUST as little scumhunting (if not LESS) than you accuse Zdenek of having done. Clearly you don't think it's a townVtown fight, else you wouldn't be voting for Zdenek, now would you? And why is what at WORST would be confirmation bias (and I do mean at WORST, as in, what I could at my most generous conceed to you; I quite frankly don't think it's true) in any way a scumtell to you, when that devotion tends to come far more frequently from town?

[mastin2]

So I'm about to rush out the door, with no time to follow through on this, but I have to write it down before I forget.

Last night, I had a dream, which I'm pretty sure was my subconscious representing this game.

I was the hero, fighting a losing battle. We did something desperate to try and end things. We also saved a fox. Whether that's Zdenek, Foxace, or both, I dunno, but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be at least one of 'em.

In the climatic battle, I was fighting six others. The main antagonist was a queen bee, who I'm pretty sure was supposed to be Tammy. LMP was there, as himself. mith was there, and I'm fairly certain that's supposed to represent MoI, due to their signature. Two I don't remember (the dream's already slipping away), and the last one was Glork, though I can't make any sense of who that's supposed to represent.

I'll ponder the implications of it when I return. Be back soon.

[mastin2]

So I'm about to rush out the door, with no time to follow through on this, but I have to write it down before I forget.

Last night, I had a dream, which I'm pretty sure was my subconscious representing this game.

I was the hero, fighting a losing battle. We did something desperate to try and end things. We also saved a fox. Whether that's Zdenek, Foxace, or both, I dunno, but I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be at least one of 'em.

In the climatic battle, I was fighting six others. The main antagonist was a queen bee, who I'm pretty sure was supposed to be Tammy. LMP was there, as himself. mith was there, and I'm fairly certain that's supposed to represent MoI, due to their signature. Two I don't remember (the dream's already slipping away), and the last one was Glork, though I can't make any sense of who that's supposed to represent.

I'll ponder the implications of it when I return. Be back soon.

Not here for long, but I've got just enough time to clarify a few details. The fox wasn't a literal fox; it was more like a kitsune. The queen bee was more of a farie queen of a hive of goons--and I looked at Tammy's avatar. It wasn't an EXACT match, but it was so close I had a shudder run down my spine. She attacked ferociously once or twice, but for the most part was circling around and letting her grunts do her dirty work for her. Also, mith was rolling bombs at me, which I had to kick back or dodge out of the way (this fits with MoI's play, where they've been attacking me from a distance). I was mainly dealing with Glork and LMP, though I can't remember which of them I was closest to when I woke up. (I *think* it was Glork.)

Anyway, as awesome as subconscious dreams are, they're not exactly usable content and the most generous of my opponents would call it at most "gut", so I'll have to come back with more content.

[mastin2]

Eenie Meenie Mini

Vote: Tammy

.

[mastin2]

Needless to say, I did zero reading last night. I had a far better place to be focusing my attention. (Not that it did any good. :/) Anyway...

TOWN:
AV
Norman
Feysal
OtherShadow
Zdenek
BBMolla

PROB-TOWN:
PV
Lord Mhork
Y u no scum
brizingre1
Shadoweh

kondi

SCUM:
LynchMePls
Tammy
sorgster
Jackal711 (via Malee)
MoS

NEEDS REVISION:
greenknight
Cooldog
trekker
Empking
Pine

Nothing's really changed, 'cept for the fact that POE TOWN is now also a suspect list, in that I need to figure out who in there is scum. My guess right now would be Cooldog, but I'm far from sure.

[mastin2]

Unvote, VOTE: Cooldog.

[mastin2]

@Mastin- say what?

what?



More seriously, I don't see what you're asking about, here.

---

The wagon on AV stinks. AV's awesome. And town. AV's also the counterwagon to Cooldog, which supports the "AV town" theory quite nicely.

AurorusVox (5) - Haze, Junpei, Shadoweh,

MoS

, Lord Mhork

There's AT LEAST one scum in there.

[mastin2]

So, I just changed my sig. Sure, I guess I could still be V/LA due to weather, but the season has mostly passed by, and I think that the space is far better used up to tell that message.

Basically, I was inspired by these threads, which made me realize something:

I originally kept on playing for the intellectual challenge. And on a related note, I've called myself the "Eternal Newbie", in that I never stop adapting, never stop changing, never stop trying something new, and am constantly evolving my play. Yet...

...Have I?

The last time I remember using logic was in Tough Guy Mafia as a hydra. Almost a year ago. Since then, I've used

reasoning

, sure, but not true, good, honest

logic

. I'm seen widely as irrational. And worse, I've stagnated. My play hasn't improved in months. Despite all my efforts to the contrary, where I do a few bold moves every once and a while, I really have sunk into mediocre play in all my games.

So, in an effort to change both problems, I'm going to try my best to change things up a bit. I think Part of the problem is "internalization", in that a lot of things I used to do manually (tone, motive, interaction, etc.), I've done so often that they're done automatically--to the point where I can't even tell what I'm doing, and am forced to call it gut. So I'm going to try and undo the damage that has happened, to remove the decay in my play.

And I figured this was as good a game as any to start in.

It'll take a liiiittle bit of time in my QT (which I realized that as a whole, I do not use often--I can go days, weeks, and heck, in a game this long, sometimes

months

without posting in them!), to sort things through.

But I think that when I'm finished, you'll see a new and improved mastin2. This means that I won't be responding to things for a short while, during the time I work things out.

[mastin2]

So my last post here was on page 56. And I've yet to do my work. (I've...been...busy. Largely doing the research which I've barely been able to use so far. )

I was intending to do, well, basically, a logical read on every player, with posts covering their play throughout the game. Not a standard TOWN SCUM NULL list from me, nor a run-through-the-playerlist-on-the-first-page-and-maybe-give-some-quick-reasoning-list. (You know, the <-- lists.) But a legitimate, honest, full-blown actual real logic (there's a difference between giving reasoning and giving logic ) post on all the players. (Something I've missed doing. I've given reasoning on players, but I've not given actual logic in nearly a year, to the point where I've got a reputation for being an illogical, irrational player. Not something to be proud of.)

...Mighta bitten off more than I can chew with that.

I'll give a quick summary, though. I've mostly been skimming the pages as of late, but more or less, I don't think my list will actually be changing that much. That is, with one exception--Pine.

I'll see if I can whip up better reasoning on him (preferably with good reasoning on the other key players today) later.

Sorry that my effort so far isn't working so well.

[mastin2]

You know, I really need to break this trend. (Call it part of my effort to improve myself.)

I pay so much attention to a single game, that I completely forget about my others. I later come in and remember some of them, but others slip through the cracks. And as I failed to think of them (whereas the others came to mind, and even if I didn't post in them, I at least THOUGHT of them, maintaining a connection to the game and allowing me to retain my reads stronger), I failed to keep my train of thought in that game, and when I DO have an "Oh, crud, I completely forgot about that game!" moment, it's already too late and I've become apathetic.

In this case, this was the game on the losing end of the stick. I completely and totally forgot about it, was in fact about to go away from the computer, had already logged out, was ready to leave the site...

...And then went, "oops. Forgot one."

I'll see what I can do to fix it.

[mastin2]

What do you think of AurorusVox?

Near the top of my townlist.

[mastin2]

Now we even have people who hard core defend pine going at him.

Including me.

Unvote, Vote: Pine

.

[mastin2]

Okay. Modded game's over. That'll open up some extra time. Now I haven't actually been using my QT (call it falling back into bad habits ), partially because I haven't really been following along since, what? Page 56? Something like that, way back there. And partially because of apathy. (Creating a self-sustaining loop: because of the apathy, no posts in QT. No posts in QT makes me more apathetic, as I'm less driven to continue.)

Here's the thing, though.

Both lead wagons stink. AV's among my strongest townreads. As is to a lesser extent, BBMolla. I might not remember much about the game, but I remember that much.

CooLDoG (3) - Nachomamma8 (trekker), Moneybags, Shadow1psc
AurorusVox (6) - greenknight, Lost Butterfly, Jackal711, Feysal, BBmolla, Shadoweh
Pine (3) - Haze, mastin2, Lord Mhork
BBmolla (6) - Mastermind of Sin, Empking, AurorusVox, Pine, CooLDoG, brizingre1

The strongest bandwagons. BBMolla looks painfully scumdriven, as it has MoS (scumread), Empking (nullread), Pine (scumread), AND Cooldog (scumread) on it, along with brizingre1 (bottom of my townread list, if memory serves). The AV wagon's slightly better, but still not great: greenknight (nullread), Butterfly (scumread), Jackal (scumread), and Feysal (don't even remember him being in the game). But it's still horribad. Compare that to the Pine wagon (made up of townreads) and the Cooldog wagon (which the weakest read in there is Nacho, at null). No contest here. Pine's the clear choice.

[mastin2]

For the record, that'd make scumteams consisting of MoS, Pine, Cooldog, Butterfly, Jackal, and Tammy. But I did have a scumread on LMP as well. I need to think things through, and also do the team divisions.

[mastin2]

To stop spamposting, though (tripple-posting is just the start ), I think it's about time I move this conversation to my QT. I'll of course anything of immediate importance, but otherwise, I think it'd be an overall neater way to operate.

[mastin2]

mastin, I thought you were actually going to try.

My QT had less than 25 posts in it, with (before yesterday) the first message typed 13 days before then. That? That's me not trying. I could spampost in here rather than abuse the QT if you'd like to prove that I AM doing the work.

This list is very "path of least resistance". With the exception of Lost Butterfaraday, nothing in there is insightful or unpopular.

Oh, you mean MoS? My scumread since day one? Yeah, totally "path of least resistance". How 'bout Cooldog, who I opened up the day saying was scum and (if memory serves) was the person I immediately voted? Yeah, totally path of least resistance. People sheeped ME on those reads, not the other way around. Jackal, my scumread since day one? Tammy, my scumread since day one? LMP, my scumread since day one? Yeah, all of those being the "path of least resistance"?

Bullshit.

The ONLY read in there which you could MAYBE say even APPEARED to be "path of least resistance" was yours (though not really), because I didn't post when you claimed the scummy-as-hell night action on MoS, which to me WAS in violation of the guide you hid behind. I was instead trying to attempt to lay out a clear and (relatively) concise logic (not just reasoning, logic), but it fell through, since I never got my act together on explaining it.

The "path of least resistance", as you'd call it, would be to vote one of AV or BBMolla. (Y'know, like you're doing.) But no. They're both town. Their wagons are incredibly scum-driven.

[mastin2]

I did it, I did it! I got one scumteam!

Pine, Cooldog, and LynchMePls/ooba are Lawful Evil

.

Haven't yet worked out the Chaotic scumteam, but I'm 90% certain on the scumteam, based off of (lack of, in some cases) interactions.

[mastin2]

That took surprisingly little time to finish.

The Chaotic Evil Scumteam is Tammy, Lost Butterfly, and Mastermind of Sin

.

I didn't even need to Iso Tammy or MoS. Butterfly gave me enough from that ISO alone.

[mastin2]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I can't read your posts, true 'nuff.

Just that you replaced into an obv-scum slot. I had a scumread on Skeletor, it was strengthened by GNR, Zar made it even worse, and then you come in.

I did an iso of you not to determine your alignment. I did an iso of you to find interactions, which you gave me enough of to condemn your buddies.

By the way, this does mean that Jackal is town. Bad-town, yes, but town by POE alone.

[mastin2]

Mastin, "path of least resistance" in this case is you going after, and staying on, the most popular wagons.

Yes, because you and Cooldog both at 3 votes is TOTALLY me being on the most popular wagon as opposed to AV and BBMolla now at 6/7 votes, who are so NOT the most popular wagons.

Like I said. The statement is complete BS. This is Pine as scum.

I've done some work in my QT for reasoning (not the logic I was hoping for, but reasoning), along with some limited (not nearly as much as I'd like) reasoning as to why his scumbuddies are Cooldog and LMP's slot (who apparently is chesskid; it didn't say that in the first post).

(Less so for the Chaotic Evil scum, in that I took a couple shortcuts. When I was looking at Pine's team, I was originally trying to create logic for why. [Failed miserably. ] When I looked to complete the second scumteam, I was trying to do exactly that, so reasoning wasn't as vital.)

[mastin2]

I have.

Skimming a little bit here and there, but I've seen most of the thread at one point or another.

[mastin2]

AFLT right now, which means no QT, which means this is entirely from memory.

But BBMolla replaced Skenvoy, who if memory serves was as good as confirmed town in the original thread. AV's posts have had multiple towntells in them, and have overall shown a town mindset, bringing up multiple good points and in general being a fairly logical player, with solid reads.

Add to that the players suspicious of both of them and it makes them as good as confirmed town. I have, what? Four? Five? Something like that of my suspects on one of the two wagons. And I'm fairly certain all six have expressed suspicion on AT LEAST one of the two at some point in the game. Even if I were wrong on one, two, heck, even three or four of my six scumreads (which I don't think I am), the fact that so many players on the two of them are NOT among my stronger townreads is evidence by ITSELF that the wagons are bad.


Plus, POE. I've got both scumteams, therefore, all players not listed as being one of the six is therefore town.

tl;dr?

They have many posts containing towntells, solid reasoning, show a town mindset, bring up multiple good points fairly logically and have good suspects. Their wagon has most of my scumspects, along with many null or weaker townreads, making both stink of being scumdriven. Add in POE, and I have every reason to believe neither wagon's on scum.

[mastin2]

Sorry Mastin, I like you, But Pine/MOS are on one scumteam, Tammy/CD are on the other.

And the third on each team is...?

Though that said, if you agree with me on who the scum are (at least 4/6) just not on which teams they're divided into, that means you'll be willing to join me on a wagon, right?

[mastin2]

Having lil' bit o' trouble with my internet, and am quite busy for the next 72 hours, anyway, but I did notice that for some reason, there's a Shadow wagon, to which I can only say WTF. I'd rather no-lynch than see Shadow lynched. I'm a good 94% convinced Shadow's a mislynch.

Same only moreso with regards to BBMolla.

[mastin2]

...Yeah, this is a scum-driven wagon. I can tell. And believe me, if I live through the night, I WILL be pushing it.

[mastin2]

VOTE: BBMolla.

[mastin2]

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.
*Speaking of MoS,

His claim stinks to high heaven, and it's waaaaaaaay too convenient given Pine's claim. I'm strongly leaning toward him being the real roleblocker or scumbuddies with the real roleblocker.

This holds true a lot more than you'd think.

I didn't use it cause I didn't want to mess anything up.

When
-He could potentially block a scumkill by blocking a scumread,

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

-He might have had a player been able to verify his claim yesterday had he chosen to block,
And

...Because it's possible I could get tracker confirmation? Or watcher? Or something.

I mean I think I was worth a track, no?

This could have happened a day earlier. Yet he chose not to use it.

Moving on to day two.
-Why would there be a town roleblocker and a scum roleblocker? With two scumteams in effectively two towns, you'd expect some sort of symmetry to be involved. While the scumteams don't have to be mirrored, giving one a roleblocker means that you'd have to give the other team a fairly strong power role to counter it, and then give the town a counterpart to THAT. Which I can't think of. The alternative--mirrored scumteams--gives three roleblockers in a game, not only MASSIVELY reducing the amount of actions getting through, not only causing SEVERE potential for bad interactions (roleblocker versus roleblocker, when one roleblocker might--depending on the rules--be able to both block and kill during a night comes to mind), and ALSO screws over the scum roleblocker's chances of claiming.

Then there's this.

Shall I out my roleblock?

Why the heck wouldn't he claim who he roleblocked? There's no pro-town motivation to hold back that kind of information, especially with (from a town-his perspective) another roleblocker floating about which might have targeted a PR and had said PR think it was BBMolla. There is the scum motivation, in that BBMolla if he blocked Pine would have time to fish for reactions to see if he can pick out a commoner and claim to have roleblocked them, since if he claims to have roleblocked a player with a role which went through, he's screwed himself.

Then there are the quotes I brought up before--once more, this is not only fishing, but also hoping that someone else comes to HIS rescue. Instead of facing the music and bluntly coming out and saying it, he hides and tries to not reveal his results.

But NONE of this is as bad as THIS:

Also whoever is actually roleblocking Pine is stupid as hell, there's no point in blocking him.

...Where BBMolla scumclaims, because

if he were a town roleblocker, he would think any other roleblocker were scum

. And scum roleblocking Pine is not "stupid as hell" with "no point"; it'd be playing to their wincon.

Add in this comparison, when I was defending BBMolla--

Have you played with Mastin before

With regards to me using poor reasoning. Now after I vote him and suddenly have a potential wagon on me, see what that becomes:

VOTE: mastin

Mastin not giving a wall of reasoning?

Pretty sure that's a first.

Itself a load of BS in that BBMolla HAS seen my not give reasoning, several times. And who said anything about there not being a wall? I've held back on posting walls multiple times, including BBMolla's very first encounter with me, when it looked like I had nothing but I sprung quite an impressive one after that. This is not only OMGUS, but it's also opportunistic.

All in all, BBMolla did more than enough to reverse my opinion. I'm not an idiot who stubbornly defends his obsolete reads; I know when my reads are wrong.

[mastin2]

Oh, and forgot.

He's also far more likely to be Chaotic Evil, with him claiming against Shadow and claiming Lawful Good, which makes him a better lynch since as multiple times pointed out, claiming to be Lawful Good when actually being Lawful Evil is suicide if Lawful Good wins or loses before Lawful Evil wins.

[mastin2]

(For the record,

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.
*Speaking of MoS,

was as far as I got. I was adding in the last two quotes in the post--since the "have you played with Mastin before" is chronologically first--when I lost it, so the above is where my reasoning's not as solid, as I already typed it up and had to re-think it, whereas the bulk of the case is mostly strong in that I didn't lose it by typing it out and still had it in my mind from when I cast my vote.)

[mastin2]

Oh, oh!

Also forgot.

He went from thinking, "There's probably a town (me!) and scum roleblocker" to "The roleblocker (not me!) roleblocking Pine is dumb; there's no [pro-town] point in doing so."

Yeah...

[mastin2]

I'll hop on the Mastin wagon, is playing a lot like oppurtunistic scum.

And BBMolla's vote on me isn't opportunistic...how?

Cooldog:

So you think both Pine and BBMolla are scum. So why not join us on BBMolla rather than Pine?

Spoiler: rambling to reg

1) Can you link me to a game where you've changed your reads due to not dying N1/N2 as town?

Probably. I don't really remember any specific game where it'd happen, but there's likely a whole lot of 'em in New York. It's happened enough that it forms a HUGE part of the basis for my Thoughts While Isolated topic. Something which (as--among others--Junpei has pointed out) shows exactly what my problem is, in that I'm good at theory and say some pretty solid stuff, but suck at putting it into practice. The advice in there is (apparently) quite solid, but I have trouble following it all the time. And as part of my effort to better myself, that post has become effectively my bible for scumhunting.

If you still really want me to track down examples from specific games, I'm sure I can dig a couple up. I think it happened in OxyMoron, it mighta happened in Tricycle, it probably happened in that one large which GreyICE was in that I sucked, it's happened in AT LEAST one game as a hydra (possibly Palisade, but most likely, Calcifer), and I'm pretty sure that there are some notable aversions where the scum specifically decided NOT to kill me BECAUSE my reads didn't change as well. (I'm a grizzled old veteran. I've played in so many games the details of each game start to blur. )

2) If Tammy isn't mafia and you think BB is now, what are your overall changed reads?

I haven't double-checked the facts, yet, but I've been working off of Day3 play so far with my new reads. (This strategy is one of the things which allowed me to immediately nail the entire scumteam in Underground Mafia, after all--from just the content on the last five pages, I got correct reads on the entire playerlist. There's a reason that game's my strongest performance ever. ) I've got a kinda scummish read on Junpei, but it's not solid. Butterfly continues to ping my scumdar. Moneybag's posts look more like IioA than scumhunting, so he caught my eye as well. BBMolla's obviously also there. That'd leave one more. I'm thinking maybe Cooldog, but I'm not positive.

3) Why not elaborate on your change of thoughts in your vote post?

I can't remember the exact reason, but I believe I was short on time. The thought of being lazy also crossed my mind, as did the thought of waiting to see reactions to my vote. So probably, my thought process was,
"Alright, I'm leaving soon. I suppose I *could* put together reasons, but that'd be a lot of work when I have other things I'd rather be doing before I leave. Besides, I'll get better reactions this way."

[mastin2]

I'll hop on the Mastin wagon, is playing a lot like oppurtunistic scum.

And BBMolla's vote on me isn't opportunistic...how?

Spoiler: further rambling

Speaking of that thread, I'm thinking of doing a followup. The thread gives good general advice on how to think during a game--but not exactly how to play. It gives town and scum plans, and ways to enact plans, but not ways to actually put them into motion. Now I've done plenty of threads on how to play as town, but all of them focused on a few specific subjects and not being as fleshed out. And there's no equivalent scum threads. (It shows you how I think, though--I think as town even as scum! ) I think it'd be a good idea to compile it all together and see if I can make something worthy of going hand-in-hand with the thread.

Though that said, I really need to touch up the town day one section of said thread, and remove the spoilers around it when I've cleaned it up; that section's STILL an absolute mess.

[mastin2]

yo, mastin.
are you scum or town?

Town.

You?

[mastin2]

Hey, Pine.

You wanna get results?

You want to force the scum to NK you rather than leaving you alive as mislynch bait?

You want to force people who've pushed your lynch to accept they were wrong? (Making the pro-town ones realize they need to re-think, and the scum ones take the spotlight.)

Vote BBMolla.

---

I don't really get the Shadow suspicion. What effectively amounts to 30 seconds ago, people were making the same accusation against me with regards to BBMolla, and when I gave my reasoning, *poof*, there went the suspicion. What makes Shadow different from me?

[mastin2]

ITT, Cooldog admits he's only hunting for one scumteam and is therefore scum himself.

But probably Lawful Evil, and I'd rather lynch Chaotic Evil BBMolla first.

[mastin2]

Unless, y'know, they've already (or are planning on) claiming Lawful Good, the smart play for their alignment.

And if you catch someone saying they're chaotic when they've claimed lawful, they're scum. Which--while not personally the scum YOU want lynched--still outs them as scum, which still ensures AT LEAST half the town wants to lynch them.

Yeah, that's incentive enough.

[mastin2]

But he DID reverse his opinion from saying I was town, to scum...using a reason that he himself knows to be false, and when called out on it (in more ways than one, as I not only gave reasoning, but also know that I have withheld reasoning in past games with him), he kept his vote on me. Where it still is, despite no new reasoning having been provided.

I ask again--what makes BBMolla not opportunistic scum?

[mastin2]

I don't really remember my Nacho read. But...

Nachomamma8 (4) - chesskid3, Zdenek, BBmolla, Lost Butterfly

...With a wagon like this, I can tell you it definitely makes me want to say he's town.

how often do scum rbers
claim rber

More often than they claim to be either JKs or VTs, even.

Yes, really. In current site meta, RBers are ~48/52 town/scum or so (heck if I know the exact number; it's not *quite* 50/50, but it's CLOSE to even distribution), combined with people saying the above lines, means scum rarely fear claiming RB as much as they used to a couple years ago.

/sleep. Might get to this game tomorrow.

[mastin2]

elaborate on this more with specifics and all that

It was originally gut. The wagon didn't

feel

right. Then I looked at the names on it. chesskid, former scumread? You, current scumread? BBMolla, the guy who I'm voting? Empking, who has never moved above null? Heck, there are probably more people that I'm not a fan of who have expressed interest in a Nacho wagon that aren't voting him.

That is not the makings of a wagon on scum. Yes, the argument holds in multiscum. Nacho pretty much can't be Chaotic Evil, (I know one Chaotic Evil member is on there*, and there might be another, since they want to save BBMolla, and Nacho's a counterwagon.) and the number of former-or-current scumreads suggests he probably isn't Lawful Evil, either.

*BBMolla jumped ship from my wagon (which was his original counterwagon) to Nacho's (the current counterwagon) as soon as Nacho's wagon began to form, by the way. If you didn't think he was being opportunistic scum before, this should convince you of it.

Mastin is being useless

Yes, because pushing for BBMolla's death is

so

useless.

The Nacho wagon needs to die. Do not lose focus on today's lynch--BBMolla. The other wagons being formed are nothing but distractions, and quite frankly, they scream scum-motivated, as last-ditch efforts to get attention off of BBMolla.

[mastin2]

Given the timing?

Yes.

[mastin2]

...Add in Cooldog (scumread) to the list of people pushing the Nacho wagon as yet another reason to never again consider Nacho scum.

[mastin2]

Wasn't obvtown Shadoweh's wagon driven by scum too?

Just because it was a wagon on scum does not mean it wasn't a scumdriven wagon.

Shadoweh (13) - Zdenek, Lost Butterfly, brizingre1, greenknight, Regfan, Tammy, AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, BBmolla, Empking, chesskid3, Shadow1psc

In particular, I know there's one Chaotic Evil player, and given how BBMolla was the counterwagon to Shadow, there's probably another. (Heck, it'd be possible for it to be all three, though I doubt it.) Butterfly (scumread) is on it, Empking (null) is on it, chesskid (former scumread) is on it...

BBMolla's wagon is a good place to look for Lawful Evil, though it wouldn't surprise me to learn that a Lawful Evil player decided to switch when it became clear that BBMolla wasn't getting lynched and that bussing Shadow would give some cheap towncred.


Today the Nacho wagon gives off similarly scummy vibes, because it's (guess what) the same as with yesterday with regards to BBMolla: his counterwagon. And as BBMolla is scum, any counterwagon to him is by its nature most likely scumdriven. It set of all kinds of alarm bells. Just like Shadow's wagon yesterday, yes. Just because Shadow flipped scum doesn't mean that one should ignore the warnings which were there. It reeked of being scumdriven, and I haven't changed my stance on that. I still think it was. Obviously it can't be scumdriven nearly as much as I originally thought (I assumed both factions jumping on), but still scumdriven.

...That made more sense in my head.

Head's not really in this game, right now, as I'm kinda focusing elsewhere.

[mastin2]

He's definitely not Chaotic Evil. I have a gut townread on him as well, but that's weak and mainly based off of how others are interacting with him. (That sounded better in my head. ) So, uh, maybe?

[mastin2]

Yes. Nacho's being pushed by (and as a counterwagon to) BBMolla, Chaotic Evil.

Conclusion: barring powerbus shenanigans, Nacho is not Chaotic Evil.

Therefore, Nacho could only be Lawful Evil. Which means that theoretically he could be scum, with his lynch being scumdriven. But as I said, I have a gut feeling which says otherwise.

[mastin2]

So apparently, I'm getting a reputation for posting 'til I get suspicion on me, then lurking 'til it goes away.

I'd rather not have that kinda reputation, so I'm going to TRY and post more often. Short on time at the moment, though.


AV, Pine will not be lynched today. Nor tomorrow. And preferably never.

When BBMolla flips Chaotic Evil roleblocker, Pine will be able to use his ability: even if he WERE scum (he's not), he couldn't realistically claim to still be roleblocked, and therefore would be forced to fake results on a person. Which would give us information.

And if he's NOT scum (he really isn't), then said information is potentially even MORE valuable, as it locks people into an alignment they may rather have left unclaimed and/or catch them in a lie.

You think BBMolla's scum as well, don't you?

Stop being an idiot and get realistic; jump back on.

[mastin2]

(Vote) Nachomamma

Yeah, sheeping Mastin?

What's the problem with that?

[mastin2]

VOTE: BBMolla, HoS: Oversoul, minor FoS: Nacho

.

I got caught up overnight and these three were the ones that caught my eye, but there are nine new pages for me to read. Now I'm not as sure on Nacho--when I looked at his posts, I saw a lot of his scum-self, but also saw a lot of his townself, and my meta on his scumself is a year out-of-date compared to his townself meta which is more up-to-date. Overall, I have a gut scumread on him, but I can't be sure, and still needed to do more research.

But...that said...I've been saying that with my V/LA, I'm barely handling three games. With the amount of work that I have to do, I'm thinking that was a lie: I'm not even handling three games at a time. And quite frankly, this is the game when I think about it, I am the least devoted to. As the above shows, what little I have is weak. I don't even know which of the three above would be members of which scumteam. The above are my final thoughts, my last guess in the game, because right now, I think I need to

request replacement

.

[mastin2]

...Hmm. Given that this is the only game currently in day, I'm reconsidering the request.

Have one ready, though, in case I decide to go through with it.

[mastin2]

By the way, BBMolla just failhammered.

As in, he probably thought he was hammered, but really isn't. He was at L-1 with my vote, then Shadow unvoted putting him at L-2...where the next vote for him was his own. He put himself at L-1, not hammering, but has removed any doubt at all and is in fact scum. UNVOTE: BBMolla,

Vote: Oversoul.

[mastin2]

Hmm. The only other time I've seen BB scumgaveup, we were close to his buddy.

Good theory, but who'd it be? We've been discussing roles, not people, for the last few pages.

[mastin2]

I'm going to work a little from POE, listing people not cleared by roles.

02. Empking
03. AurorusVox
05. Y u no scum moneybags
07. LynchMePls ooba chesskid3
09. brizingre1 Oversoul
12. trekker Nachomamma8

13. Tammy

(Unsure; I sorta remember there being some role which has cleared her for sure, but I'm not positive.)
17. Rang Tangler kondi2424 Junpei

18. Norman TiphaineDeath

(I seem to remember something role-related which makes TD incredibly unlikely scum, but I can't remember it.)
21. Zdenek
25. Skeletor Guy_Named_Riggs Zar Lost Butterfly Mina
26. Haze

It's still a long list, but this doesn't factor in people's reads--I'm going to see if I can find the buddy in there.

[mastin2]

Whoops. Forgot to remove Mina.

02. Empking
03. AurorusVox
05. Y u no scum moneybags
07. LynchMePls ooba chesskid3
09. brizingre1 Oversoul
12. trekker Nachomamma8
13. Tammy (Unsure; I sorta remember there being some role which has cleared her for sure, but I'm not positive.)
17. Rang Tangler kondi2424 Junpei
18. Norman TiphaineDeath (I seem to remember something role-related which makes TD incredibly unlikely scum, but I can't remember it.)
21. Zdenek
26. Haze

[mastin2]

The earliest non-claim discussion I can find is on 139.

Junpei - What are your issues with the claim?

Everything after that is focused on people who're eliminated (with a possible exception in the form of TD), as far as I can tell.

Why is he still voting for Nacho?

This *might* be important, as well. But I'm leaning towards Junpei. Read 139, particularly after here, and tell me what you think.

[mastin2]

Tammy's post. Mina's 3467, where she twitches at Junpei's statement. As well as 3470, where she wants to hear Junpei's issues with the claim. (Which thanks to BBmolla scumclaiming will no longer be necessary, I might point out--'convenient', no?) It might also be Haze. I suppose it COULD be chesskid, but I find that unlikely.

I'll look more into BBMolla-Junpei, as that's my best lead right now.

[mastin2]

(Coincidentally enough, I still have the Control+F window with "Find: Junpei" up at the top of my browser [never did finish that], so I'm doing BBMolla first.)

By the looks of it you're having an off game btw, MoS. I just turned to page 58 and you're calling Tammy scum and Junpei is calling you an idiot.

Junpei.

Looks good here.

Junpei why is Faraday scum

Looks better. Interaction with Junpei, and again.

Junpei what's your Nacho read

Again asking about Junpei's reads; this is nothing but promising. Continues in iso 69/70. Lists Junpei as "Dunno", and never delivers the promised followthrough.

What do you think, does it fit?

[mastin2]

Let's look at dead-Shadow.

...

No matches found. 55 posts, and not a single mention of Junpei?

Actually, I just remembered Junpei was a replacement, so there's another slot to read. Hold on, need to look up who it was. (Memory says kondi.)

[mastin2]

Yep, Kondi/RangTang. Hold on, re-iso'ing BBMolla.

[mastin2]

kondi: The more 'flops' though the less likely the person is on one of the scumteams, isn't it? Multiball is confusing. :s

Best I've got.

Side-note--AVox, Pine, and Lord Mhork's slots aren't LE, given Shadow's attacks on 'em. Might be worth doing a full iso of BBMolla to see if I can get similar stuff from him and eliminate people as his partner, but first off, Kondi/Junpei iso time, to see if it fits.

[mastin2]

So, kondi's got nothin' on BBMolla's slot or Shadoweh. Of note, there is a slight Lord Mhork attack from what I can tell, though.

For Junpei, however, look at 3468 (iso 155), "Issues with Feysal's claim", Feysal being the counterclaim to BBMolla. And iso 154, 3464, where he asks about the BBMolla wagon.

BBmolla... how would we know if Feysal was roleblocked or not? Also that assumes Pine is town.

And above that, here. Looks very good from the Junpei half. 3202 reads now as a serious scumslip, like he knows BBMolla is scum already. Here, he offers to join the BBMolla lynch at deadline, but otherwise stays away. Also note his refusal here.

[mastin2]

Nother one.

Note here, though, that the consistent trend being shown?

Junpei is trying to deflect attention off of the BBMolla wagon. I think that's the greatest giveaway there is. At first it was onto Oversoul, but then PV gave Junpei exactly what he needed, the guilty on Cooldog, to help steer clear of the BBMolla lynch. Take a look at his Day3 play. It's quite consistent. I could link to you all day, how his play keeps that trend up, over and over again, the same thing: not BBMolla, not BBMolla, and trying to get attention...off of BBMolla. It was there yesterday, it's here today. It fits with the timetable, as BBMolla scumclaimed after Junpei suspicion was shown on page 139.

[mastin2]

So I'm fairly certain now that Junpei's the last Lawful Evil scum, but I'm not sure about Chaotic Evil. I think that--before the day ends--we should figure out that to the best of our ability as well. Kinda sorta thinking Oversoul, but not sure, especially considering the Junpei attack on him; if the Chaotic Evil scumteam reacted to Junpei the way that the Lawful Evil scumteam reacted to MoS, you'd expect their nightkill to be a crosskill.

...Though thinking about it, wasn't Reg pushing Oversoul? Hmmz......

[mastin2]

I can do Feysal, Haze, Oversoul and Mastin though.

Consistent through his iso. Important is the Oversoul and Haze hate. The read on Oversoul is extremely negative, and he ends up dead.

What does everyone think of BBMolla-Junpei for Lawful Evil, and Oversoul for Chaotic Evil? Seems to fit from the Reg NK. (Though I'm about to do a quick iso of MoS and Cooldog, to see what I get on Oversoul/Briz.)

[mastin2]

Plenty from Cooldog on Oversoul. Note that he kept Oversoul at "null leaning scummy", a good place to put your buddy with a potential wagon on them. And basically, Cooldog did for Oversoul what Junpei did for BBMolla: push the counterwagon as hard as he could, to make sure the wagon on his buddy didn't go through. In particular, look at this:

Let's

stop talking about dumb wagons like mine a

britz

and let's lynch BB all ready. NO DEADLINE LYNCH TODAY. No stupid shit like what happened the last two days. Lynch BB now.

[mastin2]

Stuff like this strengthens it as well. It could still be Haze, though. See this.

@Haze, yeah he could have thought that there were more votes on him, but had he read the thread he would have seen a bunch of unvotes. He would have also seen that no one asked him to claim. The thing was that he almost shit his pants because he thought he had been caught so he rushed into a claim that logically doesn't make sense. So once he survived (who is going to lynch a claimed cop d1? Even if the claim is 1000% bullshit) the day his team went into damage control and decided to go with the role block story. Well, he sorta also fucked that up by saying that he investigated MoI which is simply a Chubacca (how do you spell that?) defense. For me the whole pine deal simply doesn't make sense. And if it doesn't make sense you must lynch him.

Look at how he treated MoS; this is the same exact kind of response he gave to MoS's stuff.

Side-note, the fact that both Nacho and Pine seem to have hate from both CE+LE strongly suggests they're both town.

On to MoS.

[mastin2]

Bam. (Note that MoS was also--like Cooldog--pushing the BBMolla lynch over the alternative lynch, Oversoul/Briz.) This sounds a lot like "null, leaning scum". The words say it's stronger, but the overall push feels like it's not as strong. And once more, that this is a good place to put a scumbuddy. There's also on the second page (which I didn't know MoS had) here.

Leaving pretty soon, so that's about as much work as I can get done today.

[mastin2]

Also, in case it wasn't clear by my continued posting,

Mod: retracting replacement request

. For now, anyway. I'll get back to you on it in about three days.

[mastin2]

You probably already figured out that I'm Lawful Good.

My head's not quite in the game, yet (I'll need to reread), but from what I can tell, it seems like both Oversoul and Pine are town. Furthermore, Junpei can only be Chaotic Scum. I'll need to check the likelihood of this being true. Pine's right--on the one hand, Junpei's claim matched what Pine said. On the other hand, Junpei's extreme hesitance to claim in the first place STINKS of scum fear.

Vote: Junpei

.

Be back after taking care of other affairs.

[mastin2]

Hmm, guess not.

Unvote

.

The only claimed LG player at risk of being outed if they lie was Tammy.

That also puts a wrench in Haze-scum, since if he were Chaotic, same story; he'd need to be truthful, but there's no Lawful who'd have reason to fear Pine. And if he were Lawful, he was at serious risk of being outed as a liar.

My best guess for last Lawful Evil scum would be AVox, but it's mainly just gut.

Vote: Nacho

. Current best guess for Chaotic Evil, though I'll get back to you on that.

[mastin2]

I would think so based off of the kills. What PRs would they have left? Godfather? (Then why PV dead?) Ninja? (Then why Shadow dead?) Roleblocker? (Then why not more blocked actions than have been claimed?) There aren't many more possibilities for the scumteam than that. Pretty much the only thing I can think of would be a Rolecop (probably CE, as LE had a roleblocker already), but if so, what would be the opposite team's other role? Redirector? (Then why aren't things a whole heck of a lot more confusing than they are right now?) There are only so many scum roles I can think of, and pretty much all of them don't seem to mesh with what's been claimed so far and what's shown up in the kills.

[mastin2]

Quick note before I leave. PV had three nights worth of investigations--N1, N2 (Cooldog), and N3. We only know one of 'em, but there should be two others, so when I return tomorrow--if I have the time--I need to take a look at his ISO.

Sorry that I didn't get back to you. I'll try to make it up tomorrow if I can. If not then, then Thursday.

[mastin2]

Yup.

Mina I've not looked at my role pm since we decided not to mass ethic claim d1. If we're not playing as two towns, just knowing I'm vt is enough for me. What good will come of me looking at whether my ethical prs or my opposing scum are dead? I'm interested in lynching scum, that's it.

AV's scum.

[mastin2]

Yes. Really. While indiscriminantly scumhunting and not caring about faction is not a problem at all (it's what everyone should--and has--been doing), ignoring it altogether and not keeping tips on how your side is doing? Yeah, that's a scumclaim.

[mastin2]

Not taking tips as scum would be suicide. Soyeah, I quite frankly just don't believe you. And there's a HUGE difference between not caring about alignment and not paying attention to alignment.

[mastin2]

The math is simple. We lynch an LG claim today. If it's the last CE, LG win. If it's not the last CE, then we go into night, with two LG and the CE--without chesskid shooting correctly, CE wins.

We lynch Chesskid today. The CG win. We go into night, with three LG and the CE--one dies, and tomorrow is lylo with two LG and one CE.

Either way, we've only got one lynch in order to win...but there are two major differences.

First and foremost, if we lynch in the LG claims today, we'll have the help of the Chaotic Good town to help us scumhunt, whereas by lynching chesskid, we remove, what? Seven chaotic good players and one lawful evil scum player who is acting like a vig with the extra info of an entire scumteam? Eight players whose insight could make a HUGE difference on the outcome of lylo. Oh, and in addition to that, we also have the extra LG player still alive to help his faction win. So, that's actually a total of NINE extra players that we otherwise would not have.
Second off, there's chesskid's kill. As the math points out, there's literally nothing we can lose by letting him live to take a stab at the last CE. Sure, he could troll and try to make the CE win, but keep in mind
-If he really is aiming for town, he might still hit the CE by having gotten his reads wrong.
-Even if he does aim for town and hit town, the CE win no matter what he would have done, because as pointed out, having mislynched already, it's no different than having mislynched after removing chesskid.

Yet there's also of course the chance that chesskid is telling the truth, will be aiming for the CE, and has a significant chance of HITTING them, granting the LG town a win when we otherwise would have lost.

tl;dr, there's absolutely NO reason to lynch chesskid over an LG claim other than pure selfishness.

VOTE: Nachomamma8.
I went into night pretty much 90% convinced he was scum. It went down to 60% when I had the nagging theory that Pine and Feysal were both scum, but since that's been proven wrong, it's gone back, and now even up, to 95%.

I'm pretty much out of time for the moment, but you can have the thoughts I typed out overnight in my QT.

His posting's been weak, and only when it was clear that he had a very real chance of being lynched did he pick the slack up and start posting actively. From memory, I can say that his play reminds me a LOT of when he replaced into the first game I saw him in, Newbie 1024, and has similarities to how he played as scum in Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 when hydra'ing with me, and that his play comes across as not being the same as his townself, and while there are similarities, overall seems like it's more a mimicry of his town-self than anything else.

[mastin2]

So starting on the Nacho case.

Do an iso of MoS first. Search for trekker.

Everyone Else:
ManiacalLemon
CooLDog
trekker

First mention of trekker, and pretty much one of the only ones there, and it's null.

All other mentions of trekker? When doing VCA. Nothing in-thread at all about trekker. And Nacho? Nacho's not much better.

I almost forgot the following players were in this game (as in, I probably couldn't tell you what they've done, most likely because they aren't doing anything of note):
Nachomamma
These people need to do more to put themselves out there.

...In fact, he's on the exact same spot as Nacho. The only other mentions MoS has? Comparing Nacho to BBMolla, and

Vote BB. We can look at Nacho tomorrow.

...This, which isn't even expressing suspicion against Nacho at all; it's him trying to get leverage on the BBMolla lynch. And that's literally it. He gave nothing on that slot pretty much all game.

And it gets better--it works both ways. Search Nacho's posts for MoS! I couldn't find anything, 'least nothing while MoS was alive. The same applies to trekker as well. Better yet, Nacho's posts in regards to Cooldog are a goldmine of their own, but that's part two.

[mastin2]

I'll be covering Nacho's posts in more detail later, but for the moment, it's focused on Cooldog.

Cooldog is very different than how I remember him.

Note that he doesn't even give an alignment read on Cooldog, just noting that he's "strange".

Okay so is he different town or different scum...seriously?

Tammy calls him out on it, and yet his response is just a deflection, as he responds,

cooldog is different, still don't know whether town or scum. seriously.

(Then why note that Cooldog is different at all if you don't have a read from it?)

But then, suddenly, he drops that entirely, and cooldog is town, because...

not really interested in lynching cooldog today. faraday's calling him town and i haven't read much but i'm sure i can trust his town reads.

...Of trust in Faraday. And once more,

Interesting, Faraday's also been calling BB town so if you can trust his town reads, why are you voting BB again?

...Tammy calls him out on it, to which he responds...

First of all, look at the wagons. 9-7 with 1 day left until the end of day. When I made that post, it might have been 4 days left until deadline. Either way, I wasn't going to push a wagon on my own. So, I follow my strongest townread who is mastin and not faraday.
Secondly, cooldog is not a counterwagon to faraday's favorite wagon. Of course he's going to call the counterwagon to the wagon he's trying to push town; that's mafia 101. If you want to get a lynch, you don't push big cases they can respond to unless they are really solid, and you express your vehement hate of the counter wagon. Cooldog, on the other hand, is not the counterwagon to his lynch, and thus what he's expressing is most likely to be the truth. In addition to that, Cooldog hasn't stood out all that much since I've been in thread. BBMolla has. And since I have my own read on him, I will follow that before following faraday.

Which is a pretty weak reason to write off Cooldog while pushing BBMolla. Looking at it from the perspective of CE-scum-with-Cooldog, it makes a ton of sense for him to take this stance, however, as it leaves him in a perfect position.

I think there was another point or two, but since I can't remember 'em, this'll do for now.

Going to take a small break before I continue on.

[mastin2]

I checked for you. It's not near the bottom of her iso, but that's pretty much because she spent the last of her days focusing on Junpei and Oversoul.

Suspects (mostly by PoE)
Nachomamma8

Slightly less suspicious, but still in the suspect pool
mastin2 (ManiacalLemon looked really scummy, but mastin's reactions to replacing out and doubt over the last members of the scumteam looked genuine. Besides, if Nacho is so confident in mastin being town, then he's probably either right or scum buddying him.)

(Speaking of which, once I get back to the game, I'll be sure to point out Nacho's convenient change in reads. Cooldog was one of them, but far from the only ones. I of course am another, and when from conftown for days to confscum today when he had no other place to turn.)

[mastin2]

Alright. First off, note that I don't have much time today. 'Bout an hour, though this game should be my only focus for today, meaning I can make that hour count.

Second off, I just realized that in a battle of walls, charisma, and in general, playing strong, Nacho will beat me, since he's the one who taught me how to do those kinds of things in the first place. So I'm changing strategies, and shifting things to be more abstract--take a look at my play overall compared to Nacho's play overall. Basically, taking advice from Yosarian2: in lylo, scum and town are both acting pretty much identically, have the same motives and overall goal: to live, and get the other person lynched. And in this battle, Nacho's a stronger player; I'm not only not used to being in lylo, but against the person who knows how I think, Nacho can outmaneuver me and pretty much counter every point I'd normally make and make some of his own which I have a hard time defending against.

For today, anyway. But look at the whole, and you'll see the truth, just like in DoRC how CTD was hammered--Nacho's been playing overall to a scum motive and a scum wincon, whereas I have consistently been furthering the town's interests.

My play has consistently been scumhunting the whole game. Even despite my limited access (which, by the way, was why I was last to claim my ethic--you started it on the weekend when I had no access; it was not strategic as Feysal claims), I contributed at every single point that I could. And I've been scumhunting the entire game. During the brief time I tried to change my style on my soul search (miserable failure, that ), it wasn't as visible, but I was still trying, and it became evident once I gave up on the change and went back to being the normal me.

Nacho, on the other hand, until a day or two ago could be summed up in one word: coasting. His play never brought anything significant to the table, and he was getting by on pretty much nothing. He never gave a read on MoS and his Cooldog read was weak and inconsistent. His only real contribution to hunting scum was pushing BBMolla, something which he was originally coasting on as well, via sheeping me. He only began to take it seriously when

his life was in danger

as a counterwagon to BBMolla

. This same exact pattern continued with TD, where Nacho only picked up the offensive once he realized that HE was the alternative lynch. And once again, it continues today, where the ONLY reason he's pushing me as scum is because there's nobody else he can realistically hope to get mislynched.

I can provide proof of these claims with time, but I think if you look at us in iso, or even look at the circumstances in question, review the situation, and think things through, you'll realize that I'm not lying--Nacho is scum. And I'm just getting warmed up.

Though for the moment, catchup; got a page to read.

[mastin2]

At Tammy's request, GK's wall:

Spoiler: It got a bit long

Skenvoy looked town based on 5 (out of 88) pages at the start of the game where he was under no pressure at all, so his replacement gets a free pass?

I tend to clear people off of early play far more often than I should, yes. One can look at any of my recently completed town games to tell that. Heck, I've cleared people off of the way they post "/confirm". So, yes. Skenvoy looked town based off of 5 pages and BBMolla got a free pass because of it.

What did you make of AV's behaviour at the start of day 2 then, specifically surrounding the "doc claim" issue?

I don't really remember this, but by now, it's been proven correct as AV's confCGtown. I seem to recall not thinking it suspicious or even noteworthy, though.

so I don't see where you're coming from with "they have good suspects." (also, they're voting each other, so you saying that they have good suspects undermines your position that the wagons are scum driven)

Exaggeration. I looked, I saw 'em have a couple of reads I agreed with, and I pushed that. (Actually, I think when I was talking, I was mainly talking about only one of the two, but I forget which it was that I thought had the better reads.) Me being Mastin, I'm pretty persuasive overall. (Not much compared to Nacho, mind you, and that's why we're kinda screwed 'less I step up my game.) So if they have a few reads that I agree with, I can generally get them to go along with me and push the reads I agree with while getting them to slowly let go of the reads I don't.

As for logical posts/solid reasoning, those are not reliable town tells in themselves without associated flips because strong players are capable of making logical posts both when playing as town and scum.

I'm Mastin. People have consistently criticized me for making connections without associated flips for a long time now, and pretty much every time, my response remains the same: We don't always get those flips, it's my preferred scumhunting style, etc. Could probably dig up the exact logic I use with a quick look into a few of my town games, if you'd like.

See the thing is.. you aren't doing anything to try and restart the Pine wagon or get your other suspects lynched (trying to arrange them into teams certainly doesn't count), you are just defending people, and your defences have little substance to them. The fact that you're even bringing up the idea of PoE on day 2 of a 26 player game reinforces that impression.

I don't think you actually care who gets lynched. So long as they're not on your team. After all, you can just defend people and have a 6/7 chance of looking good when they flip.

My offense was defense, of the main wagons. The main wagons at the time of BBMolla and AV I both thought were town, and I was trying to shut them down. If the wagons were shut down, then people would focus on other suspects. Again, this is where the direction comes in--I'm persuasive when I need to be. If I manage to shut down a wagon on someone I think is town, then I can direct the former voters on that wagon to a suspect of theirs which I share, and work with them rather than against them.

I was busy at the time (I believe on Day2 was the time in the afforementioned DC Universe game where I was desperately flailing to stay alive), so it's impressive that I managed to get as much in as I did. My main weapon isn't really logic, or reason. It's the main thing Nacho taught me: stubbornness. So, yes. My reasons weren't great. Yes, my posts didn't have much logic behind them, and were abstract--it didn't matter. What I needed to do to further my agenda was shut down the wagons on people I thought were town and focus them onto people I thought were scum, and THAT I was doing as much as I could. It's just the way I operate.

As for POE, I'm ashamed it took me 'til Day Two to use it; I should have been using it ever since day one. POE is one of my most powerful weapons. (Another thing which I got from Nacho, by the way; I don't think I ever used POE while I was Mastin; it only really started as mastin2.) I've used it pretty much every game, right from the get-go. (This ties into "eliminating a player from suspicion early-on when I really shouldn't"; they get eliminated for the sake of POE scumhunting. And stay eliminated even when they shouldn't have been.
As you can kinda tell, everything in my scumhunting style builds up on itself over time. I POE, I use interactions, I defend people and push my reads through, I bargain with others and get them to do what I want them to...all of them things GK was accusing me of doing, which I quite frankly have no problem admitting I was doing since it's a damn-good way to scumhunt, ESPECIALLY later in the game.)

[mastin2]

He's been called out a LOT recently, chiefly by me, for his practice of bussing. I think he's stopped powerbussing as his default.

This is true. While 144 was eaten by Tigers, the only scumbuddy I bussed there was mcqueen. For obvious reasons, and it was on day one. From then-on, I never had any suspicion on either sage or Hiraki, my scumbuddies that game.

For a nearly-identical (but not eaten by tigers) scumwin, you can look at Oversoul's completed Mini Normal, also a scumwin for me. In it, UberNinja and I butted heads because we had similar styles yet vastly clashing ideals. (Basically, a Not-So-Different opposite of me.) We were fighting each other in-thread with a brief scumread on each other, but it was for out-of-thread reasons, being our conflicting beliefs. (Basically, we were fighting over theory, and that's kinda what sparked our in-thread distancing, rather than me doing it for strategic reasons.)

After we worked out our differences, the suspicion dropped pretty much instantly (since again, the suspicion had its basis in our styles and we managed to smooth things over in our QT), and he remained a townread of mine the rest of the game.
My other buddy, TML, was (quite justifiably so) one of my strongest townreads that whole game--the only reason I had to throw suspicion his way in lylo was because POE was beginning to turn against him, and there were only four or so realistic suspects the last day, TML the only scum among them.

[mastin2]

You refused to answer any of the questions concerning these horribad posts I made all over the place.

I can't really remember it now. I could try to reconstruct why I was suspicious of you if you'd like, but keep in mind with extreme confirmation bias to you being town, I can't exactly reconstruct my reasons for thinking you're scum. Most of my work on these things goes on in my head. I'm the kind of guy who does a lot of mental calculations. I don't retain most of 'em, though. Quicktopics help, of course, and that's one of the main reasons I use 'em--but I wasn't using it much at the time. Heck, my QT has less than 50 posts in it, sporadically scattered about. That's one of the things I was hoping to improve on my soul search, as I said in-thread, because I KNOW it's a problem, that I don't record WHY I have the suspicions and therefore forget about 'em later-on, but as I just mentioned, the effort kinda fell apart later-on and I regressed back to being the same ol' goes-mostly-from-memory-Mastin.

It's a flaw in my style, yes. Basically, I've done scumhunting so often that I've internalized most of the things I used to think out. (I made a long post about it, and almost posted it in one of the MD threads, but it exceeded the length limit we had at the time. I still have the notepad document stored somewhere, if you'd like me to post it.) Basically, I've been scumhunting for close-to (if not above) 80 games, with half of them (if not more) in a little over a year. (I started actively playing somewhere around February '11, I think--1024 was Novemberish of '10, and my start to actively playing was hydra'ing with Nacho, who reinvigorated me and basically morphed my style into what it is now.) I used to write out interactions, I used to write out tone, I used to write out motive and point out artificial versus natural, I used to do all of that, in-thread...but over time, it got internalized, practicing for so long, to the point where I could do mental calculations on things like that, and my suspicion on you, Tammy, was this kind of thing. A mental process, subconscious. Over time, I've been forced to call it "gut", when explanations have failed me, but in truth, it's not. It's something beyond gut. It's practice. (And to think this is basically just a SUMMARY of the post I was planning to make! )

Why are you now pushing for Nacho? What changed in your read of me?

Him. No, seriously. I still had it in mind that you could be scum, but it was Nacho who convinced me you were town, simply because he was insisting on you being town. I've had a scumread on Nacho's slot for pretty much the entire game. I had a scumread on you for pretty much the entire game as well, yes, but only one of the two can be correct--and what I saw going into the night made me think it was him. Combine that with his confidence you were town (had Nacho pushed you even a little, I wouldn't have been as sure it was him), along with many people having declared you town over the course of the game (I trust the dead--and many of them were also suspicious of trekker/Nacho, mind you), along with my own read having changed to be townread for something you did somewhere along the line (I have no clue what it is now. Again, it was probably an internal observation. Might have it in my QT, but I doubt it)...it was more than enough.

Basically...there was a ton of evidence which slowly built up, but it was Nacho's confidence that you were town that finally sealed the deal. The last straw, the last thing to cement you firmly as town, was him not so much as batting an eye your way.

[mastin2]

Short on time, might not get to answer everything. To answer as much as I can, though,
Tammy, the reason I didn't respond to you is that you were a scumread, and I don't enter a wall battle with a scumread (lylo excluded, when it becomes a necessity), for quite obvious reasons:
Let's say I was right about you being scum. Let's also say that you still asked me to explain myself. Let's also say you were the only one who was (and you were most of the time, from memory. I can't think of any time where you asked something that someone else asked me, and if it did, then I believe I answered).

I comply.

And then you know exactly what to use in order to clear your name. You counter everything I've done and use it against me. You twist it to push against me, furthering your agenda.
I see it, of course--so I fight back, countering your counter.
Enter the wall war.

And what do most people end up concluding in a wall war?

TownvTown, eight times out of ten. Meaning you as scum would win no matter what I did, in that situation.

Whereas if you were scum, and I refused to answer? You're under stress. You're under pressure. You're incredibly angry at my refusal to go along, and you have zero way to counter me. Under this pressure, you begin to crack. And others take notice of your change in attitude, your shift to scumminess whereas they had previously overlooked your slot. Meaning that I have the edge over you, and if the suspicion on you dies down, I can give my reasonings of my own will to rekindle the suspicion.


That's how I work. Mafia's also a game of psychology, you know, and in it, I have had the upper hand ever since I realized this. It's how I operate--I intentionally do not respond to my scumreads, to further tick them off, and under the pressure, they'd break.

...That is, unless of course they're actually town, in which case their frustration (since my strategy DOES frustrate the scumreads regardless of their alignment) paints a different picture, and eventually they become obvtown.

While it took a lot of time in your case, that's what eventually happened. And I think the second you became a townread, I began answering any questions you had of me at that point. I don't really remember when you did transition from townread to scumread, but I know for a fact that I did become more compliant to you once you did. So yes, my strategy of not answering was quite intentional, and it was strategic--but it wasn't because I was making up a read.

Keep in mind, even if I WAS scum, I wouldn't be lying about ANY of my scumreads, and would be legitimate in all of them. Meaning that even if I WAS scum, I was legitimately suspicious of you and felt you were scum. The read was legitimate, and once it changed, so did how I treated you.

My scumhunting overall is pretty abstract.

My method has always relied on "shock value". Even as the VI Mastin, I relied on nailing people based off of their emotions, and their responses to my actions. Back then, it was via stupidly self-voting and over-the-top scumclaiming, but to this day, the process remains, albeit far more refined and helpful--in the form of scumlists.
As I said, most of my scumhunting goes on in my head. I post the result of it, and it's the scumlists. I give reasoning when prodded by townreads, but when prodded by scumreads, I ignore them and press harder.

So yes, I posted a lot of lists. That's how I gather and change my reads. I enter, I give info, I give lists, others respond, I update my list, I see things, and when necessary, I push things through with reasoning, but otherwise intentionally hold it back. In part because I do things mostly mentally, and therefore suck at bringing my thoughts out to the light.

...I know, it sounds complicated, but that's just the way my mind works. It's how I've scumhunted, and I know it's not perfect, but it's just how I work, and have worked for over a year. If Nacho were town, he'd probably be able to verify most if not all of what I'm saying. If Pine weren't disinterested, he'd probably also be able to back my claims up. I've been scumhunting from the very beginning, both teams. Defending others, pressing my reads, trying my hardest to get my scumspects lynched. The proof isn't in my reasoning. The proof is not in the logic I've shown. Those are things I don't do well regardless of my alignment. The proof is in my intentions the whole game, the proof is in who I've been pushing and when.

And that's the difference between Nacho and I. I've been consistently trying to further both towns winning. He's been consistently trying to further his own survival, and even the survival of Cooldog on day three.

Note that during lylo in DoRC, Yosarian2's arguments were actually weaker than CTD's. He was town, and losing to CTD who was scum. He won in the end, however, because of his overall play compared to CTD. CTD's play consistently furthered the scum wincon, keeping the scum alive for as long as possible, getting rid of the SK, and trying to survive. Yosarian's consistently furthered the town wincon, trying to get scum lynched and while not always right, showed his true colors through there.

Nacho has consistently furthered the scum wincon, keeping scum alive, getting rid of the opposite team, and most of all, trying to survive. I've consistently been furthering the town wincon, to try and get scum lynched. And while many of my reads were wrong, the evidence is all there. I've been doing everything I can to help us win.

[mastin2]

Keep in mind, no weekend access for me. Last week was a one-shot holiday deal, meaning I can't come here again as I did then. And I don't have much time, now. Around half an hour, in fact; not nearly as much time as I'd like to give, considering the number of questions Tammy put forward. But I'll do what I can.

If the second quote is true, why are you the only person I could realistically hope to get mislynched?

This is a misrep of the point I was making. Tammy had been a scumread for much of the game, yes, but Nacho's townread on her was the final straw which pushed her once and for all into the conftown pile: she was already a townread and already considered likely town before then, as I explained in the post and gave the reasoning for.

Nacho gives a reason for why he's not turning on me right now. Mastin said the reason why he's not turning on me is because Nacho didn't even hesitate about me, which proved why Nacho is scum; however, Nacho didn't just disregard me and gives a reason for why he's not.

Reasons he gave in 4199, the quoted post. Before then, however?

You shoot Tammy.
I'm endgamed by Mastin.

First post by Nacho. Bluntly says that I'm scum and that Tammy's town.

Keep in mind, I still haven't posted by this point. And Nacho's already started his 'case' against me. Again. No mention of Tammy, not so much as a hint that he even COULD be suspicious of Tammy. Nothing but saying Tammy's confirmed town, gunning for me straight away. Continuing here as well. He's quite clearly going against me. All the posts on that page are in fact against me, and he's already addressing Tammy as the person who will decide lylo--he already knows that Feysal would be killed if we lynched chesskid, and he already knows that he's going to gun for me, and he already knows that he's got to be on Tammy's good side, already knowing that she's town and that she's going to be the one who casts the deciding vote of the game.

I'd have to double-check to make sure, but 4199 is probably the first post in which he so much as CLAIMS to have EVER considered Tammy as scum, with everything before that being crystal-clear: he was gunning for me, and knew Tammy was town.

My stance that Nacho never hesitated, never thought of "turning on Tammy" (as you described it) is quite justified, because

that's exactly what he was doing

. His claim to have done otherwise is quite frankly bullshit, as evident by the thread. He knew from the start it'd be me he was after. He never hesitated, he never dropped so much of a hint that it'd be anyone other than me. And as I said before, that was the final nail in his coffin for me--his insistence on Tammy being town. He knew. From the start. If Nacho were town? He would have had that doubt, and shown it immediately. He had a meta townread on me, a quite strong one. I was his strongest townread, in fact, up to and including yesterday. And today, I became his only scumread, without hesitation, without a second thought, without having shown so much of a hint that this was unexpected. No, he knew going into day that he'd be targeting me.

And that's what was the final push which gave him away.

[mastin2]

So, in Mastin's response to me he says that he's had a scumread on Nacho for most of the game.

Yes. He was.

I'm missing reads on Pine, Empking, trekker, and Norman.

This was working from the archive. Of course I had no read on trekker, because he had no posts. But considering the reads I had already, that was already beginning to be suspicious.

POE TOWN:
trekker

Do you know what POE town means?

It means "if it weren't for the fact that I have six scumreads, these people would be suspects". And that's exactly what it was--I had six scumreads, of fairly decent strength. The people on the list I had some suspicion on, but not nearly as much.

Where his slot remained. You'll note that others in that list (Cooldog and Pine, namely) I questioned, I pressed, I interrogated, and I furthered my reads on them, and they grew to be serious suspects, moving from that list onto the scumlist as former occupants of the scumlist were reversed onto the townlist. The only reason that he wasn't put there is because, well, quite frankly, there wasn't much to question--he was trolling, he wasn't contributing, he was basically mostly active lurking, and was an absent slot for a long time before Nacho came in--meaning that he basically coasted by and did drop below my radar, I'll admit, but not for long. My suspicion on Nacho skyrocketed after this post, however, because guess what?

Nacho never answered.

He never said "Yes". He never responded to my question, asking if he were town. He probably didn't want to lie to me, and figured I'd let it slip.

I didn't show it in-thread, but I have a QT post somewhere where I say, "Nacho still hasn't answered" or something to that effect, and made sure to note him from that point on.

As for why I thought he was town when I saw the wagon on him, a few factors come in--
1: I misread BBMolla (like Feysal did) as being Chaotic Evil. That's one of the reasons I was pushing his lynch so hard, mind you; I honestly thought I was lynching my opposite scumfaction. He was pushing for Nacho's lynch, which meant to me that if Nacho were scum, it'd have to be Lawful Evil.
2: Exaggeration. Again, part of my style is to push my reads. I wanted BBMolla dead, so I was pushing him. Nacho was his counterwagon, so even if I thought Nacho were scum at the time (I was mainly focusing on BBMolla and trying to get the other two CE, so I didn't really pay much attention to the LE at the time), to get BBMolla lynched, I needed to dismantle his wagon to get steam for the BBMolla one.
3: Business. I don't think my mind was entirely in the game at the time. I knew I wanted BBMolla dead, but I think my attention at the time was elsewhere. And because my attention was elsewhere, I didn't really keep track of my reads.
That is, until the Cooldog lynch, and MoS NK.

My first post after that?
Here. I caught up overnight, and when I saw Nacho's posting, it strongly reminded me of scum-Nacho. And from there, the read grew stronger.

Yes, I've had a scumread on Nacho for much of the game. The only day I didn't was Day 3 when you think about it. Day 4 onwards, he was a scumread. Days 1 and 2, he was on my list of "people who would be scum if there weren't other people who are scum more". (Essentially.) 5/6ths of the game. While it was only a strong suspect from day 4 onwards, he was in my sight multiple times before then. And while he slipped through the cracks due to me being distracted, me forgetting my reads and not keeping better QT notes to remember them, me trying to push through the reads that I DID remember...

...The evidence is quite clearly there to show that, yes, I WAS suspicious of his slot, yes, when I thought about it, I WAS keeping an eye on him, and yes, when I remembered to think about him (since quite frankly, there wasn't many times he was active enough for me to have thought about him), that I HAD been suspicious of his actions.

/Out of time.

[mastin2]

Also, I just realized something:

I IC'd for ManiacleLemon when he was still a newb.

Game was eaten by tigers, and Quillford never bothered to restart it after that. (It was almost done, was in lylo with me against another player. Don't think anyone in that game other than me is still around, though I don't really remember the players except Yuchai and jily.) But an important factor in that--
During the RVS, I made a "random vote" with a random reason...which wasn't random at all. It was based off of logic. Not very strong logic, mind you; it was the RVS and I had very little to work with. But my vote still had logic behind it, and when I presented the reasons, it looked fairly impressive. (Worth mentioning, I was town, and he probably knew that by then.)

In other words, I masked my reads as being RVS when they were in fact dead serious. Looking at ML's posts, I think he took my example to heart in this game. He legitimately became suspicious of MoS and Cooldog (among others), wrote it off initially, tried to disguise it as being RVS, but in truth was waiting to spring his trap. This is supported by the very first thing he said in-thread:

Therefor, it'd be better to use regular scum hunting.

And then he "randomly" voted Foxace (who he later made clear was a real scumread, not just a RVote), and "randomly" voted MoS (when he was--like me--suspicious of MoS's entrance to the game), and "randomly" voted Tammy, and considering MY early-Tammy-fear, he probably saw much the same as I did.

In other words, ML took my technique and one-upped it, using it better than I did in the newbie game. He learned to give his reads early-on while still appearing to be playing along, while he was truthfully and stealthily scumhunting. And he formed many of the same reads that I held, too, furthering the evidence supporting that he was thinking like I would. Basically, while he didn't get things *quite* right, he probably was thinking, "Okay, think, 'What would Mastin do?'"

And that'd explain a LOT of his early-"RVS"-play.

[mastin2]

I was out of time at the time, and thought of the above post when I was away. And had to keep it in mind, painfully waiting for a couple of hours until I could make more time for myself. How I do it is none of your business, and has to do with my personal life. Needless to say, I actually sacrifice a lot of things I would normally do in real life to pay attention to this game. (Eating among them. I haven't eaten lunch in...oh, probably over a month. [At least on weekdays, anyway.] Just breakfast and dinner. My lunch is spent working on the game. No time to eat when I'm typing. )

Now I theoretically have some more time today, but it'd risk me being late for an event which I'd rather not be late for. (By the way, 'nother Mastin fact: I've got a reputation in real life for always being early. Rather an hour early than an hour late, right? Well, my reputation's pretty much been destroyed by me squeezing every single last minute I have out

and then some

, with me now being consistently five or so minutes late rather than early.)

Which means I'm about to leave, again. (Generally, you can tell the difference: if I'm leaving because of time, I really want to get back into the game. If I can, I'll post again that day, like I did above. If I can't, I'll keep a note on what I want to do when I DO get back, be it in a quicktopic or notepad or even handwritten if I need to. If I'm leaving without being short on time, I'm probably not coming back for a while, since I'm leaving content, having done everything I could think to do on that day. Obviously, this is not *always* the case, but this is the general trend in my posts, you'll find, ever since my reduced access hit me.)

Won't be back 'til Tuesday, but I'll leave this out there for Tammy--

If there's anything you want to know about ML, you might as well ask me. Under normal circumstances, a replacement can't answer for their replacee's actions, but if I'm right about ML having been inspired by my play and trying to emulate it, I think I very well might. Again, a delay will be there between you asking and me answering, but I'll answer once I am actually capable of having seen the questions.

[mastin2]

Mastin: I'm absolutely disgusted you would even CONSIDER tactically replacing out of a game.

Hence one of the reasons I didn't.

For the record, I also was flying blind day one--I knew I was CE, but I did NOT know who my partners were, as it was not in my PM and I didn't look at the QT long enough to see their names: just long enough to see that I had no daytalk.

It led to my reads being quite legitimate all of day one, since I really had no clue who was scum at all, to the point where I was praying I wasn't too right. As it turned out, I was right about *my* teammates, more or less, but not so much on the other team, as is typical for me.

And, yes. As you can tell by my delayed response: I HAVE NO ACCESS ON WEEKENDS, GUYS, AND GUESS WHEN YOU STARTED THE MASSCLAIM? Yeah, on a weekend, when I did not have access, so by the time I came in on Tuesday, I was last. Nothing strategic about it. I just wasn't around.
That said, the rest of Feysal's points were actually quite valid, as noted in our QT. Anyway, my nearly-empty psuedotown QT. As noted in my true QT, I'm not that disappointed in losing. I'm admittedly disappointed in the

speed

I lost, yes, but as Tammy said, there probably was little I could have done to change her mind.

Mina was killed because she was the most confirmed town other than Feysal, who I could kill with getting away with--I didn't want to have to deal with the "Feysal was NK'd and he suspected Mastin, and was about to investigate him!" accusations I thought would come up. In hindsight, considering that Feysal's PR-paranoia was false, and the town woulda known that once chesskid was outed, shoulda killed him knowing there was no way to overcome his (justified) confirmation bias. But I had no way to know chesskid would be outed as scum on the last day.

[mastin2]

Was the mod's fault, anyway--you really, REALLY should put someone's scumbuddies inside of their role PM, and it's even better to include what their roles are. I read my role PM, and could easily confirm every single detail in there--but nowhere would it be required for me to acknowledge who my scumbuddies are, something which (thanks to the mod not including it inside the actual PM) is something I only would learn about by looking at the scum QT.

Overall, I do think that the LG town earned the victory. Obviously, I'm disappointed in it, but it certainly wasn't just given to them. It was hard-fought, and the sacrifices they made were quite noble, and I was quite frankly disgusted with the CG's apathy and reluctance to return the favor.


That said, though, I think that our scumteam from a theoretical standpoint was less balanced than the LE. It worked out in the end, but...The full cop was in our town, and we had no way to stop it other than to kill it, with a doctor potentially hindering us--we didn't have the roleblocker. The role we DID have turned out to be quite helpful, and the situation never came up because we took out the doc early-on, but still, I kinda feel like optimal balance woulda been to have us with the roleblocker and the LE with the watcher; it'd fit better as well, considering the LE had to go against a CG tracker. Overall, the game was still balanced, I'd say, considering the town's strength was nicely balanced against the scum's, but still...why WAS the roleblocker LE rather than CE? PR-wise, it meant that the LE-CG balance was slightly scumsided (half-cop, half-doc, and a tracker, vs a roleblocker), whereas our balance (full cop, half-doc, and a fairly-worthless-rolecop vs watcher) theoretically seems townsided, whereas half-cop, half-doc, tracker vs watcher and full cop, half-doc, and rolecop vs roleblocker seems to work out better. At least in my mind; am I not seeing something?

[mastin2]

I wasn't using the mod's lack of having put the names in there as a justification of having done it. It's something mods SHOULD do, but that was meant as a separate point.

But I really don't see what the issue was with it--it's not like it did me any good. If anything, it actually hurt me. Unlike "I haven't read my role PM", I couldn't exactly claim in-thread "Guys, you're wrong! I didn't even KNOW my scumbuddies 'til night one, so all your stuff about me and my scumbuddies on D1 is worthless!", now, could I? The only people who knew were my scumbuddies and the mod, so there was no way the town would know that I hadn't known, so there's nothing to have deprived them of.

There was some advantage in me having not known, but there was also an equal amount of disadvantage, in that a chance in reads (which happened!) would be far more noticeable, along with giving me no guarantee that I'd have avoided the problem (which I really didn't--I was suspicious of both my partners on day one, fitting into my classic scum meta of double-bussing, EXACTLY what I had hoped to AVOID via me not seeing who I was partnered with). In other words, it's just a gambit, one which has some reward if it pays off, but has serious risk if it doesn't (and it didn't).