Cases are anti-town?

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Post Post #12 (isolation #0) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:37 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Answer: No.

Next question?
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Post Post #37 (isolation #1) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:09 pm

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Seriously; voting on gut is fine if that's the best you can do, but if you actually have a reason for thinking person X is scum, it's usually best to say it. You can lead with a vote and explain later to get better reactions if you want, but if you have reasons, you should share them at some point. You might convince other people, or there might be some huge hole in your logic that someone else can point out.

Just remember that half the reason of making a case on someone is the chance that you might be wrong, and if you are, you want someone to explain to you why you are wrong. It's not a debating club; if you "win the debate" but lynch a town it doesn't help you.
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Post Post #39 (isolation #2) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:27 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 38, Junpei wrote:Re: Reaction tests: If you don't know what you're looking for, then you're looking for trouble.


It's worthwhile poking at someone you are suspicious of to see how they react and how other people react.

I should be clear, though, that when some people say "reactions tests" they mean "I'm going to do something stupid, scummy, and anti-town and see how people react", and that's a terrible idea. Never do something actually anti-town in order to get a reaction, or the reaction will be "all the townies quicklynching you"
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Post Post #43 (isolation #3) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:45 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 41, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In the end I'd say every read is gut.


That's really not true.

I can't tell you how many times that I had a town gut read on someone for most of the game, but I voted them anyway, because logic dictated that they had to be scum. Usually logic trumps gut.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #48 (isolation #4) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 45, crypto wrote:
In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:Usually logic trumps gut.
this statement is delightfully retarded on so many levels


Ok, I should clarify that. Usually for people who are not bloody idiots, logic trumps gut.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #51 (isolation #5) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:43 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 50, Timeater wrote:Logic is subjective when it comes to interpreting the actions of other individuals


Well, logic is objective; it's just that logic always relies on assumptions, by definition, and the assumptions can always be wrong. When someone is logically scumhunting always make sure you agree with their assumptions before you follow them.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #6) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:27 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 57, crypto wrote:
In post 48, Yosarian2 wrote:
In post 45, crypto wrote:
In post 43, Yosarian2 wrote:Usually logic trumps gut.
this statement is delightfully retarded on so many levels


Ok, I should clarify that. Usually for people who are not bloody idiots, logic trumps gut.
qualifying a stupid statement with a stupid conditional doesn't really help

intuition is experience-based and as far as i know it's not more valuable to morons than it is to smart people


Except that by the time you've gotten to the point of the game where have enough information to break it down like a logic puzzle and logically figure out who the scum have to be, then you win, you don't need to rely on intuition anymore at that point in the game. Although there's usually one dumb townie who ignores all that because of some stupid gut read that they've had since day 1, and they're pretty annoying.
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Post Post #64 (isolation #7) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:14 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Well, obviously you can't do real, formal logic to find an answer until you have a LOT of facts, which usually means pretty late into the game.
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Post Post #66 (isolation #8) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 am

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Oh, that's a very different kind of thing from what I was talking about. Obviously cases as a whole don't use formal logic; they should use reasoning and logical arguments, but that's not the same thing.

Now, if you're saying that a reasonable sounding case shouldn't necessarally trump your gut, I would agree with that. It all depends. That being said, cases are more useful then gut for everyone else.

Timeater: "I have a gut feeling Pooky is scum".

If I'm town and don't know either of your alignments, that's more useful to me informationally then you not doing anything, but only slightly.

Timeater: "Pooky looks scummy because of his OMGUS attacks in post 45, 83, and 127; he has consistantly lurked when not under attack, he's used what appears to be dishonest and slippery logic in his case in 235, and I generally have a bad gut feeling about him."

Now I have a lot more to work with; I can go look at those posts and facts, and form my own opinion. If you're wrong about some of it, I can correct you on it, and see if you're being reasonable or are just trying to get Pooky lynched. If you're right about some of it, I can say that I agree with you about point X (thereby adding another data point for everyone else, this one about me), and I can ask Pooky about some of it, and see how he responds.

All in all, a case, even a short, simple case, generates a ton more data for everyone else in the game then just a dull "I have a gut feeling that person X is scum", and it generally moves the game foward better. A gut vote is better then doing nothing at all, and no one is saying you should ignore your gut, but when you can make a case, it's better.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #69 (isolation #9) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:48 am

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In post 67, The Fonz wrote:The problem I have is when someone makes a case that 30 different things a player has done are scummy, and I can't tell which are the key points, and at least 4-5 of the points are ridiculous and total confirmation bias and they cause me to ignore, or have my eyes glaze over before I get to, the 1-2 that actually nail the guy as scum.


Yeah, fair enough. It's good to make both kinds of cases; short posts, which focus on the key parts, and longer, analysis-style posts, that let people see a little more of your thoughts and some of the smaller scumtells.

Just don't let someone distract you from your real points by debating about stupid stuff. Every now and then, you just have to repeat "Um...you defended scum. For 30 posts. And then you hammered the cop." and keep the attention on the main points.
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Post Post #70 (isolation #10) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:50 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 68, quadz08 wrote:It seems to me that the general consensus is that WALLS ARE BAD.

Sound good? Good.


Bad walls are bad. Good walls are good. Except for lazy people who skim them, and to them walls are irrelevent.

Basically, if your post goes long because you have a lot to say, that's fine; it's when people start trying to just flood the thread with BS to hide how weak their points are that it gets really annoying.
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Post Post #74 (isolation #11) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:45 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 71, quadz08 wrote:Eh. Business style writing: fit the most important points in as small of a space as possible. That's good communication, and good communication is what makes good scumhunting.


Sometimes. Nothing wrong with brainstorming/thinking out loud/sharing your thoughts as they hit you style of posting either, though. That has the advantage of making it easier for people to read you, and might get their minds going as well.
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Post Post #77 (isolation #12) » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 75, Timeater wrote:There are reasons people have gut feelings

It doesn't come from the ether


Sure. Like I said, gut feelings are useful, and shouldn't be ignored.

If you can identify where you got them from, though, and point out where you got a bad gut feeling from and why you have a bad feeling about person X this game, it's more useful to the rest of the town.
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Post Post #88 (isolation #13) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:10 am

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In post 83, crypto wrote:your fantasy world where the outcomes of mafia games are generally governed by situations in which elements of "gut" and "logic" are both applicable but in which logic always or almost always trumps gut is a fucking ludicrous

@yos


You do realize that I was only talking about an endgame situation where have enough facts that you can logically figure out who the scum has to be, right? How is gut applicable in that situation at all?
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Post Post #97 (isolation #14) » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:43 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

You have to have both, obviously. There's no "dichotomy between gut and logic".
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Post Post #129 (isolation #15) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:37 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 128, The Fonz wrote:Actually, I tend to think the actual arguments people use are a red herring - people tend to use the same kind of rhetoric as either alignment.

It's who you vote for and when that's the single most useful source of information when scumhunting.


Who you vote for and when is the single most useful piece of information, but why is helpful as well.

Yes, people tend to use the same general types of arguments as either alignment, but they don't do so in the same way under the same circumstances. The way I think of it is that there is generally some divergence between scum play and "what that person would have done as town"; they're usually similar, but not quite the same. In key situations, the divergence becomes much bigger.

Cases are useful because there is a difference between the kind of cases you make as town looking for scum, and the kind of cases you make as scum when you're either trying to look town, flying under the radar, or trying to push mislynches. Different motives means you'll tend to go after different things in different ways; the general types of cases will be similar, but not the details.
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