Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Smashbard]

You know how hard it is to find a 30kb avatar that's not over 100x100 frame that doesn't look like crap?

Well, not very. I'm just picky.

I agree with PM that the RVS is virtually useless. I've never once gotten anything of value out of it, it's best to start discussion right off the bat in a productive way. So I'll ask a couple of questions to each person who's posted thus far.

McStab: Do you feel it's best to pile on a player for a quick lynch to gain information as quickly as possible? Also, have you ever had productive results from the RVS stage at finding scum before? Details on the latter question if you don't mind.

PMysterious: Since you also don't approve of the RVS, what do you plan to do to steer conversation in a productive direction? Essentially, this is an echo of McStab's question as to what kind if scum hunting do you plan on implementing?

Eleison: What is it that you are trying by voting PM? What kind of information would you expect to gain from the wagon?

Maenara: Do you have any comments on the most recent interaction between PM & McStab? Obviously you have participated in RVS, do you have any experiences where it was a productive part of the day and not just a distraction?

[Smashbard]

Nothing drives a player to provide quality performance, opinions and information quite like being a small handful of votes from Lynching.

I can see the merit of a pressure wagon, but I prefer to save my votes for when I believe I've found scum. After all, a pressure wagon is pointless if the player is aware your vote holds no real suspicion.

I have another reason, but for the sake of obscurity, i'd feel more comfortable revealing that later.

I'll hold you to that.



Maenara: How is it that you don't like theory discussion but were perfectly comfortable wasting time with a silly pirate vote? This is why I don't like RVS, alot of players who participate in it get all bent out of shape when they are expected to actually get serious. In my opinion FoS is useless, if you really have suspicions convey it with a vote. FoS' and HoS' just show a lack of commitment to your reads.

Trying to get Eleison to elaborate on his motives is either panicked rolefishing on your part or reasonable pressure for answers. I'm leaning towards town motivations for you, because I agree that trying to hold secrets out loud this early in the game is not needed.

[Smashbard]

McStab are you scum?

However, these kind of questions really bug me. I mean, really? What kind of response do you really expect? Weird that you ask McStab specifically, why?

I'll have to look into you as well to see if you ask these kind of questions often as town. Because I don't really see any town motivations for such a useless question.

[Smashbard]

You know what, Mae? Just for that, I'll keep it to myself. Try thinking about it, instead of blindly assuming stupidity. That goes for anyone really.

Or better yet, don't. It doesn't matter.

I don't think you're stupid. I think you're reaction fishing. I just don't see how you think it's beneficial on page 1 to openly state you have hidden motivations. It's like Mae said, if you have them, good. But openly saying as much is just putting a bullseye on your back no matter your alignment.

[Smashbard]

I skimmed a lot of your previous games from the past year, none of them had you as scum. So that doesn't help me much. Maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. I do however enjoy your style as town. Very short and concise, I hate wall o' texts. So if you're one of the good guys I'm pretty happy.

But seriously, the only two answers you could possibly get from asking "Are you scum" are the obvious "No" or a sarcastic "totally". You gain nothing from such a question.

[Smashbard]

Actually it's got some legitimacy to it. The point of the question isn't necessarily what people say in response it's how they say it. If someone answers it nervously or takes it too seriously, they're more likely to be scum, if someone treats it jokingly or sarcastically, they're more likely to be town. Punctuation, the length of the answer, whether or not they even respond to it, everything is an indicator of a certain mindset. It's nothing to base a read on, but it counts as something. I got town vibes from McStab's answer this time.

PM's alignment will reveal itself in time. No point in this now.

This is a very helpful piece of information for analyzing early reads, brings a new perspective to things.

McStab, are you pressuring PMysterious to see if they are a PR role because they easily reveal their role? I can only sense scum motivations behind wanting to reveal roles so soon. Not sure if you have scumknowledge and are looking to gain towncred if PMysterious flips scum. IGMEOY.


Considering he just explained the reasons behind his desired wagon, I find this post very scummy. I got scumvibes from the initial McStab vote, but after his explanation I see why it could be useful. Also, did you really just say that you can see nothing but scum motivations from his actions, and then proceed to make an RVS vote totally unrelated to your actual suspicions?

HA

To elaborate. PMysterious responds terribly to pressure and reveals his role quickly. For example, in that game Evilpacman just described, I figured out PM was a PR based on his very first post. In other games, such as Mini 1361, I've found one of his scumpartners and him being scum based on his actions. Therefore, pressuring PM pays dividends. It is not an RVS.

RVS does help though. To point to specific results would be hard, because you could argue about exactly what constitutes RVS and how much it's impact is on the game. However, virtually anygame that uses it and then properly catch scum can be traced back to RVS at some point.

Although your pointed question-asking works, but I find it still results in the same end. Newbies trip up in either RVS or asking questions, and pressure is applied to determine if they are scum. Then, based off flips, PR results and associative links, more experienced scum are found.

Seriously, pile some votes on PM. I want him pressured; if he starts to fall apart, he's scum.

I like your explanations. I still think it's rather pointless to do a pressure wagon when it's blatantly obvious that the wagon isn't serious. But I'll bite for now. If only because I'm getting town vibes from McStab & Pacman.

Vote: PMysterious

[Smashbard]

your plan is so brilliant that it can't possibly have any flaws

it even sounds too good to be true

like

it's coming from scum

if anyone needs pressure

it's mcstab fyi

You know your suspicions are flawed when the reason you disagree with someone is that their logic makes too much sense. @_@

Anyway, your tells are wrong as well. It varies from person to person and the two spectrums are answering the question and not answering the question rather than how the person answers the question. If the person gives a straightforward answer (ala yes, no, simple one word stuff) then the person has a

very

slight townread. If the person dodges the question by trying to make a sarcastic answer (Well, I can't tell you that.) or completely ignores it, then the person has a slight(though greater than the town read) slant toward scum.

Also, reminding the person about the question invalidates most of this stuff as well. This is a tad bit overkill for something very minor in the end.

Evilpacman already helped explain why simplistic questions like "Are you scum" are useful for making early tells. But uh, way to reiterate his explanation in a way that makes it seem like you're participating?

Now

this

is juicy stuff for page two.

Let's go over the facts, theomoaner.

It's Page 1. You're correct. There's very little evidence to go off on, so how is this possible? Is it possible?

Could he perhaps be *GASP*

LYING?!?!?!

or perhaps *GASP*

TRYING?!?!?!

Either point doesn't matter because you

clearly

identified that both points aren't possible. So...he's scum because he's made an impossible threat?

oh....right...

we thought this one out.

Which is why it's important to hold people to their claims that they make in the early going so as they don't make townie looking posts early on and not follow up. Hence why I expect an explanation from Eleison later on as to why he has suspicions of PMysterious, and I expect PMysterious to elaborate on Page 6 what their reads are or risk being called on it.

Yes, my buddy from last game, you were perfectly clear! Flawless! It'd be impossible that someone would have a different view than us!

Seriously. What the fuck. Stop this pretty obvious buddying to McStab being a god.

I don't actually believe they were buddies in their last game. From what I read, they were at each others throats and McStab refused to believe Pacmans two-shot town cop claim that had nailed scum (which was true). If you read the actual game that was linked, you'd know that.

Why do I smell compromise on Page 1?

Compromise for what? I didn't like the PMysterious wagon at first, McStab explained to me how it could be beneficial for gaining information, so I changed my mind and decided to give it a try. I find it best to try and find town motivations as well as scum, so that you can have at least an idea as to who you can and can't trust. At the moment, I trust in McStab's logic.

Why exactly do you want pressure on me? Because I want to pressure PM?

You overestimate him if you think this plan doesn't work. I can cite specific meta examples if you so desire. Otherwise, stop trying to takeover leadership of the town with your needless banter and rhetoric, and start properly scumhunting.

Are you afraid of pressure being applied to you? If it's ok to use against PMysterious to gain information out of him, why would you be hesitant for it to be applied to yourself for the same reasons?

He (she?) did that in the early game in our last game: newbie 1269.

This helps me develop a more town vibe from Jun. As they were town in the newbie, and are mimicking a similar playstyle this game. But I'll still be keeping an eye out.

Closed normal - the wiki has a list of roles considered normal. Any of them can appear with any applicable normal modifier. Setups are created by the mod, and approved for normalcy and usually balance by a small group of reviewers. There's no way to predict what might be in the game and trying to outguess the mod is generally a bad idea....

Thanks for the explanation, why exactly is that a bad idea?

Considering mykonian has ran games upwards of 50 players where at least half a dozen players were all Mimes, I'd say it's just a bad idea to try and outguess this mod in particular. A large normal can have a huge variety of standard roles, and I'm sure mykonian has thrown us a few curve balls on both sides of the fence to keep things interesting.

I am still in RVS, especially seeing as many players haven't even checked in yet. It's hard for me to really get a sense of who the real scum might be. I would rather FoS for now and just file away my note on McStab's behavior while I try out this RVS thing.

I don't think you understand what Random Voting Stage is. Because you're trying to participate in serious analysis of players behaviors but at the same time retracting saying "Oh, all of this is just RVS from me." So either you don't know how it works or you're purposefully backpedaling on the RVS thinking it's going to save your points from scrutiny.

Yes, why is attempting to guess at the setup a bad idea? I assume scum will be at an advantage, knowing what roles they have been assigned, and thus they have a bit of an advantage, as I learned from playing in C9++ or other formula balanced setups.

From my experience playing table top Mafia games, the rules generally say that there should be 1 Mafia for every 3 townies, give or take third parties or balancing needed for special roles. I don't know if that's the standard here, but if it were you can expect about 4 Mafia this game.

Additionally, I came up with another question. In the Newbie game, the IC recommended that lying/fake claiming is highly frowned upon in Newbie setups. What is the general "Large Normal Game stance" on fake claims, or anything else pertaining to Normal Game meta that might be useful for a new player to know?

I would most definitely lynch anyone who would be caught lying about having a power role. It's anti town at best and scum flailing at worst. In my opinion anyway.

[Smashbard]

My apologies Hikari, actually your post about reads based on how someone answers "Are you Scum" are the complete opposite of Pacmans. Sorry about that, interesting to get two different opinions on how that question generates tells though. I wonder which one is more valid? To the wiki I go!

[Smashbard]

Well I didn't find anything specifically regarding the question "Are you Scum", I did find Sturgeon's Law, which helps somewhat. Since 90% of common knowledge is crap, I'll have to decide for myself what is right and wrong until some actual concrete proof surfaces.

[Smashbard]

But uh, way to reiterate his explanation in a way that makes it seem like you're participating?

And I explained and even referenced his post at that point.

Uh, thanks for reading it?

If you read the actual game that was linked, you'd know that.

Oh crap! He got me!

Because the sarcastic point wasn't 100% correct, the completely serious part, which has nothing to do with the previous game, must be 100% wrong.

Holy shit, I'm fucked.

@Mod: Votecount Please--I want to know my odds

(

Note to mod: NOT REALLY

)

FFS. What is this shit Smashbard?

What the fuck is it?

McStab explained to me how it could be beneficial for gaining information

I still think it's rather pointless to do a pressure wagon when it's blatantly obvious that the wagon isn't serious. But I'll bite for now.

Why yes, I see how these two correlate perfectly.

how could i have missed that?

PreEdit:

To the wiki I go!

You realize all I've said and all that the wiki will say are just opinions

right?

You're not really refuting anybody's points, you're just sarcastically blowing smoke out your ears everytime someone disagrees with you. Luckily for you I don't find that a scumtell or I'd vote you just for being a useless distraction.

[Smashbard]

I'm finding Jun, Telo and Pirate scummy at the moment. I will elaborate more when I'm off work. PMysterious, its page 6. You better have some reads.

[Smashbard]

You are scummy due to your nervousness over nothing since you've flipping out over maenaras vote. Jun just went from buddying to voting the same dude in minutes. Telo is overly cautious. More later. On phone

[Smashbard]

There has been alot of antitown overreacting to pressure on people from the start. Its hard to tell with experienced players whether its aggressive play or scumminess. Say, Jun flips scum. I could better believe Hikari is scum due to his instant defense.

[Smashbard]

To Pirate Mollie: I would draw the conclusion because Hikari jumped to Jun's defense when Evilpacman tried to call Jun out as scum #1. I would not LIKE to draw that conclusion, as I actually find Hikari to be very town at the moment, if only abrasive. It's going to be hard to work with him to create a confirmed town lynching block later in the game because he's so anti-everyone's opinion other than his own. But that doesn't make Hikari himself, scummy in my eyes.

As I was trying to elaborate earlier via my phone, at this stage in the game it is going to be near impossible to lynch experienced scum. You have to catch their less experienced partners, then look at the interactions from the previous day, who was on what wagon, and try to draw correlations from the lynch as well as any information gathered through the night.

This may be a vote just based on not liking your play, but I just have a really bad gut reaction to you, Mollie. And in times like Day 1 where I don't have much to go off beyond my gut, I need to follow it.

Unvote. Vote: Pirate Mollie

To Hikari: I don't find Theo scummy at the moment because we share a genuine suspicion of Jun's play. If my gut is right and Jun is scum, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Theo to just straight up buss a scumbuddy so early in the game like that. As he's trying pretty hard to get him lynched.

[Smashbard]

I don't really have a tangible answer for that beyond the fact that your posts just give me a very nervous feeling that you may be the highest likely candidate to be scum. I know it's not much for anyone else to really go off of, but I just have a really bad feeling about you. I even fully admit that it could just be that I don't like your playstyle, but I don't know yet. All I know is that I feel you are extremely scummy. So I'm going against the vote I want to do (Jun) and going for the vote I feel like I should be doing (you).

Post #64 you refer to Maenara’s fade, which really doesn’t make a lot of sense no matter which way you spin it. Because either way you’ve insinuated, that he showed up with a fire and then faded out all within 21 hours of posting. There’s really no other way you can infer the term fade. Unless you someone have seen his haircut.

Post #66 Is where the real uneasiness from you started though, as you seem all too excited for that OMGUS, as if Maenara just handed you a tell on a silver platter or something, when OMGUS isn’t really indicative of anything town or scum.

In Post #97 you mischaracterized the exchange between Hikari, Evilpacman & myself. First, I wasn’t controlling the narrative, I was merely apart of trying to get us out of RVS as early as possible. Once that happened I ended up taking a step back when more abrasive attitudes started flaring up. Also, the portion of Hikari’s post you quoted as “mentoring” me was actually him referring to evilpacmans reads being wrong when it came to how someone answers an “Are you scum” question. Also, noting Hikari’s defensiveness when your immediate jump on Maenara for voting you is the definition of defensiveness, is unnerving.

I agree with post #100 when you say that town reads are useful for narrowing down suspects. But I also cannot deny Eleison’s point that openly stating town reads will only give the scum a better idea as to who they can lynch in order to demoralize the town by eliminating town leaders. That's probably my guess why guys like Eleison & Hikari are being as rough as they are, because it's sometimes better to be the unpopular town that knows what he's doing than being Mr. Super Town who's going to get shot Night 1. So if you’re the scum my gut is telling me you are, then I can definitely see why you’d be pressing Eleison so much to post their reads.

[Smashbard]

I said at the moment you 3 are scummy. Not all scum together. Theres a big difference. My reads are malleable enough to change on either of you due to behavior, flips, slips and evidence

[Smashbard]

We love you too, Hiraki.

But fine, the overwhelming consesus has persuaded me to believe that Pirate Mollie is probably just NewbTown. Even so, if there is a vig or something, I don't think Eleison or Pirate Mollie would be the worst possible targets. I'd honestly like to be rid of them, one way or the other, and if it so happens that they die instead of a more useful player, heh, who's complaining?

I'd be complaining quite a bit if the hypothetical Vig decided his ability was better served towards killing suspected newbtown rather than killing suspected scum.

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand,

she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod

. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in order to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I know everyone hates considering the possibilities and "theorycrafting", but say there is a Vig. Why is it ideal that the Vig kill off town, even if they are newb/anti town? I'd think the Vig would want to do the same thing most nondoctor roles want to do, target scum. It's probably the best thing about being a Vig, the fact that you can take justice into your own hands and kill someone you suspect is Scum, even if the rest of the town doesn't agree with you.

Although I agree about NJACK. Just because you say "I'm not defending Jun", that doesn't 1) Automatically mean you are not defending him and 2) Doesn't excuse you to immediately follow that statement with yet another defense of Jun.

For serious though, It's the same principle as using the terms "But". You can't say "I'm not racist but," and then be allowed to follow up with a racist comment on not be called out on it. You can't say "With all due respect" and then tell the person they are a piece of crap and expect them not to get mad about it. You've been defending Jun. Period. Now whether or not Jun is really town your constant denial of your defense only to get right back into defending them is not only making you look scummy, but also making Jun scummy just by association with you.

first off why do you have jun in both your town and scum pile?

secondly, I did not "lie", to me it was a fade YMMV.

speaking of anti-town, it is anti-town to policy lynch and to ask the vig to take out a player whom you think might be town. I am noisy but I am not

that

noisy and I am seriously trying here. I haven't called anybody an idiot.

I like this post from Mollie. It reads more town than scum. So my weariness is starting to fade.

[Smashbard]

Unvote.

Vote: NJACK

[Smashbard]

Slandaar, i'm going to ask you to refer to my post directly above my vote and that you pay attention from now on.

[Smashbard]

NJAC, it is commonly accepted that scum distance themselves day 1 to prevent connections. But I am thinking outside the box. If two new players are mafia, I believe they would defend one another to keep numbers strong.

[Smashbard]

So you defending Jun doesnt bother me that bad. But your constant need to say its not defending as you defend him looks like a bad job of protective distancing.

[Smashbard]

eleison - nobody in their right minds would make such a spectacle of themselves if they were scum IMO. his scum buddies would be telling him to shut up by now cos he is drawing a lot of attention to himself and he really stands out.

You obviously don't know elie.

He does this stuff often, as in get attention on himself, and has done it as scum. Think this is his first game on Mafiascum so I wouldn't put it past this happening here.

Regardless I think from what I've seen from this meta, and granted I have to admit it's been mostly newbie games I've read, is that aggressive, standoffish play is rewarded here with town reads, which for the most part tends to be accurate. There's a lot of competitive people on this forum, so when someone is being overly aggressive one of two things happen.

1) Either they are so distracting and anti town that the majority of the town lynches them due to perceived over defensiveness, from which they usually flip town and the games proceed as normal.

or 2) People recognize that scum seldom take the risk of starting out as the lone wolf because situation #1 sometimes happens, so it's a risky scum gambit. And people begin to recognize that the aggressive player is just town trying really hard to win at any cost.

You may know Eleison better than I do, but at the moment I'm feeling like Eleison is edging on situation #2. Especially since they've cooled down quite a bit since their first flurry of put down posting.

[Smashbard]

Wow Shinori...you not only are basing your vote on Eleison on previous meta, but previous meta from a different site which may or may not reflect how players are expected to play here on Mafiascum?

Definition of lazy scumhunting.

Unvote. Vote: Shinori.

What are non-meta reasons why you believe Eleison is scummy?

[Smashbard]

Considering pirate mollie is showing interest in lynching you as well as eleison i'd say you better take my vote seriously and answer my question, scum. Youre dodging, and I dont like the way you squirm.

[Smashbard]

I have very good reason to believe Eleison is town. You on the other hand are flakey, dodgey scum whos said yourself you were scum in a game where you didnt contribute due to boredom. Replace out if you cant give two shits to try.

[Smashbard]

Well Shinori I've already said why Eleison is leaning more town than scum. You've decided to ignore anyone elses read on Eleison because you are so focused on tunneling them based on bad blood.

[Smashbard]

So I ignored your points and stated vague reasons for my vote to show you how irritating your play is to me. Maybe now you can see my point of view and try focusing on real scum. A list of my reads to come.

[Smashbard]

Based on individual ISO’s of each player who has posted thus far in this thread, so some of my gut reactions to certain posts at the time of their presentation may not be the same. I apologize ahead of time if this ends up getting long. If I get hard pressed for time I may split this up into reads concerning 3 players at a time going down the list because I want to avoid walls as much as possible so that people can easily read what I have to say.

But before I start, I want to bold this statement.

Everyone needs to stop bringing up bad “low hanging fruit” arguments to defend themselves from suspicion.

You are not getting any sympathy from me. This is my second SECOND game of Mafia on Mafiascum. The first being Newbie 1864, in which I was scum, and won. Go check it out if you want meta on me, and I will answer any questions you have pertaining to my play. This is what a responsible player is going to do in this game. Address concerns against them and, if town, will help redirect suspicions towards those who are actually scummy. I’m not going to fall to my knees and plead for mercy because I’m “low hanging fruit”. If I get heat on me, I suck it up and fight back as best as I can. That’s what you should all be doing too. Not falling back on “Sniffle, I’m just a newb and you’re picking on me! Sniffle sniffle”.

Dividizzle:
Post 231 was bad, but he retracted it so it tells me he’s more leaning towards new town than scum trying to cling to something that isn’t there. I like 281, as he sums up pretty nicely why NJAC is a prime suspect for scum. The wishy washiness from NJAC is bad, more on that later. I would like if he himself elaborated a bit more as to why he believes McStabs ISO is sketchy in 314, as it would help get a better idea what Divi’s state of mind is at this point. But otherwise…

Read So Far: Dividizzle is tizzle to the fe fye fo fizzle if you catch my drizzle? He hasn’t posted much. But from what he has I can tell he’s trying.

I have to go to my nieces first birthday party at the moment. But when I get home I’ll be finishing up as many ISO’s as I can. Eleison & Evilpacman are next.

[Smashbard]

Eleison:
Looked really antitown in the beginning trying to be Hiraki Jr, but Post 79 pretty much summed up why he was doing what he was doing in the early game, being abrasive in order to get reactions going.

Also, I want to bring to the front once again that it’s been stated HUNDREDS OF POSTS AGO that trying to guess alignment based off of previous meta when you’ve only shared 1-2 games with a person is going to get us nowhere. This even goes for Shinori & Eleison, you guys have both proven your point that the other player is super scummy all the time and likes to pull attention to themselves regardless of alignment. So unless you have an actual non-meta based case on one another, cut it out.

I understand why Eleison doesn’t want to share town reads, it makes sense if you are playing this game on your own and don’t know who you can or cannot trust. But I will say that I do not share that philosophy, as openly stating reads of who you think is town/scum is crucial in the early going as it helps us identify connections between players based off of flips that happen later.

I think there is at least one opportunistic scum on the Eleison wagon at this time taking advantage of an easy situation because it’s so simple to just say “He’s hiding information, must be scum!”. Or the much more ridiculous “He agrees with Mae, he must be scum!”. Unless you have a scumread on Mae, you can’t accurately say that Eleison is scummy for agreeing with him.

Post #147 definitely exposes Telo as scummier than most. More on that in the Telo ISO.

Posts #263 and #269 utterly annihilates Shinori’s case against him based on meta. So this, more than anything, solidifies my read on Eleison.

Read at this time: So Town he might as well be a metropolis.


EvilPacman:
I had a pretty solid read as Town for EvilPacman in the beginning as he was active, similar demeanor from his most recent town games and was able to answer my questions quickly and effectively. Post #78 is bad. Seems like he was trying to backtrack into going “Oh by the way, theo is scummy”. Probably leaning more null than scum on that, but it reads bad. He says he’s conservative with his vote, but he goes very quickly from not feeling Theo is scummier than Jun, to voting for him based on very little pushing from Hiraki, to unvoting him again and going back to Jun. Since then he’s went nearly a hundred posts without saying a thing of value. Which has really shaken my early town read on him.

Read at this time: Null leaning Scum that’s focusing too hard on early RVS play by Jun.

[Smashbard]

Of course I have more reads, I am in the process of trying to complete ISO's 3 at a time and it's really frustrating when my laptop keeps enacting a blue screen physical memory dump before I have a chance to save my progress.

But to quickly answer a question, no I am not considering triangulating with anybody. That would be too dangerous this early in the game as that means you have to have a great level of trust in someone you have nothing more than a gut read on with no evidence to back up your claim that they are town. Trying to triangulate this early is dangerous because it gives scum the chance to "confirm" themselves by just looking like trustworthy town and being apart of a block of players that won't lynch each other because they are too busy trying to lynch everyone else that looks scummy to the group hive mind.

Trust me on that one, I was scum in my last game, and nobody in the world who thought I was scummy stayed alive long enough to make a case on me. Nachomamma, Bodean and Myself in some ways created a town "block" and started voting people based off of bad process of elimination logic because gee, nobody in our protown block can be scum, right? When I was scum the entire time. Don't trust anyone to triangulate with you unless you are 100% sure they are town, it will be your downfall.

[Smashbard]

I fully expect yourself, Jun, Shinori and other "We must triangulate" posters to jump down my throat and say "He's hesitant scum who doesn't want to form a block with us, how anti-town of him, let's lynch em!". And to that I say, bring it on. I know where I stand.

Still working on those ISO's.

[Smashbard]

To Pirate: If the goal of triangulation is to not form a block and rather just create conversation between three people, why can you not just...do that naturally throughout the game? I guess I'm just not understanding the purpose behind having a public/private 3-way conversation when there's 13 other players on board, most of which are guaranteed to be town that you're leaving out of the group scumhunting.

So Hiraki, you vote for Pirate Mollie just because their wagon is gaining traction? Not because she's like, your top scum read or anything? Weren't you the one pointing out towards me that you "Smell compromise on page 1?". More on that once I get to your ISO. But seriously, how do you brush away that kind of hypocrisy?

[Smashbard]

Ok this process is taking forever and a day and it doesn’t seem to be helping anyone. I’m just going to read the ISO’s and post general thoughts down here, because I’m creating walls and I hate walls. I need to just trap my thoughts down into short, concise bullet points as to what my reads are.

Dividizzle: New Town. As far as I can tell I see genuine scumhunting coming from him, even if it’s not going anywhere.

Eleison: Town. His logic makes perfect sense, even if I disagree with it. Disagreements do not equal scumtells.

Evilpacman: Null. Leaning Scum. Started out really strong and has dwindled off into obscurity.

Hiraki: Lone Wolf Anti-Town. Isn’t contributing to the overall scumhunting process. Doing his own thing, active lurking. Not very useful at all, but not scum in my eyes.

Jun: I’m thinking town at this time. His reasons for town/scum reads are horrible, and wanting to guess the set up and wonder if it’s ok in this meta to lie about your role is also quite scummy. But I’ll take it as new town trying to figure out how Mafia works here for now.

Maenara: His playstyle is very annoying. With the whole kiddie talk and “me no likey” all over the place. Can’t decide if that’s distracting scum or distracting town. But from the actual content of his posts, I’m gonna say town. He points out the inconsistencies in other peoples arguments without necessarily trying to push cases on people like scum would.

McStab: I really liked his early game strategy to get discussion going by trying to form a PM Wagon. But since then he’s dropped off the face of Mafia. He has said it’s due to school, and I get that. But his first worthwhile post back is a random off the wall case against Dividizzle? From my previous game reads that had McStab in them he seemed to be more of a town leader and very aggressive scum hunter. This time is not the case, so I’m gonna say scum.

NJAC: Null leaning town. After rereading both his and Jun’s ISO’s I can see that his defense of Jun’s play is genuine. I still don’t like his insistence that he wasn’t defending Jun, but at the moment his ISO isn’t looking to me like opportunistic scum.


Crap...I'm failing really hard at making my thoughts concise. Fuck it, more ISO's coming your way.

[Smashbard]

Pirate Mollie: This ISO confused the hell out of me because there are several posts that I did not notice during my standard read through of the thread. He seemed horribly stuck on my listing 3 players as “low hanging fruit” for like, half a dozen posts and just wouldn’t let go for a long time. I guess I’m glad I missed those posts, because I’d probably be tunneling really hard on her right now if I saw those posts and how much she’s whining that I thought three new players were scummy. Considering I’m new myself. Objectively speaking, I want to say Pirate Mollie is town. The only real interaction I see that raises red flags for me is her desperation to get Slandaar to participate in triangulation, with Slandaar distancing very heavily away from Pirate. Which at a glance looks to me like Mollie is desperately reaching out to scumpartners to trick the town into believing that they are “triangulating” as pro-town dudes working towards the betterment of the town. But Slandaar doesn’t want to get caught up in any sort of connection with Mollie lest one of them get outed early on. Everything else makes me want to say town, but this whole desperation triangulation strategy is reading scummier and scummier to me as the days go on.

[Smashbard]

PMysterious: A big fat null until more posts come out from him. Seriously, there is nothing on here that let’s me know a thing. If somebody makes a case of lynch all lurkers I’d suggest PMysterious so far. But other than that I got nothing.

Shinori: Probably the King of Anti-Town. Can’t say scummy at the moment anymore. Mostly because I think at least a new scum player would replace out for the sake of his team. But he actively, annoying tells us how much he has zero interest in this game and all he’s going for is trying to Eleison lynched. I take it back Eleison, Shinori is Hiraki Jr.

Slandaar: In isolation he seems like the most pro-town person to me thus far. His problem mostly at this point is Pirate Mollie. This is by far the most intriguing situation to me. Pirate Mollie seems town, but is buddying hardcore to Slandaar. Slandaar seems town to me, but asks a lot of questions without providing a lot of answers or elaborations on his own reads. A lot of this could be solved with a Pirate Mollie flip. Depending on Mollies alignment, that’s going to ultimately determine whether or not I believe Slandaar is town or scum.

[Smashbard]

Telo: Null to Anti-Town. Hasn’t posted much of anything. What he has posted is distracting. But his whole “It would be cool to randomly guess scum” seems like a new town post to me. Time will truly tell what I think of Telo.

Theomoaner: Seemed really scummy in the beginning due to a lot of weak scumhunting. But the more the day has gone on the more effort I see coming from Theo, being one of the only guys who’s caught a lot of slips from Jun and Pirate Mollie and stuck to them. That doesn’t change my reads on Jun or Mollie, but it certainly allows me to trust that Theomoaner is town.

Thurhame: Currently in the process of getting replaced. But regardless, his early wagon hopping on Theo and then pretending like every little thing he did was scummy seemed to be like the definition of fake scumhunting. This might be a bias read due to my read of Theo being town, but until we hear something from his replacement then I’m afraid I believe this slot is scum.

[Smashbard]

So to paraphrase everything into one simple list, here's my reads.

Pretty Sure Are Town:
Dividizzle.
Eleison.
Hiraki.
Jun.
Maenara.
Shinori.
Theomoaner.

Nullreads:
Evil Pacman (Leaning Scum)
NJAC (Leaning Town)
Pirate Mollie (Leaning Town)
PMysterious (Just Null)
Slandaar (Leaning Town)
Telo (Leaning Town)

Pretty Sure Are Scum:
McStab.
Thurhame.

[Smashbard]

I'm pretty sure you don't view anybody in this game as having any credibility at all. It's ok little Hiraki, you keep playing you're little one man mafia game like you're the only one who matters. Run along now little Hiraki, you're doing such a good job! Yes you are! Yes you are little Hiraki! Don't let those mean little mafia players force you to be useful, you're your own special little snow flake. Keep it up little guy!

[Smashbard]

damn you got me

You don't have to worry about this newbie "getting you" little Hiraki. You're a useless anti-town distraction, but you're town all the same. It's ok little Hiraki, I'll work twice as hard to make sure you don't have to do a single thing but bitch all game long. It's what you're good at after all.

[Smashbard]

Yes you got me again

I must be bitching in my posts rather than proving a point by being a sarcastic douche

In addendum, do not associate me with the word little.

I've had real life problems with that word, thanks. So I'm going to ask you to end it there now.

My apologies. I certainly do not want to bring up bad memories for you. So I am sorry for referring to you as little.

I am sure you will understand out of respect for this game that I will simply ignore what you have to say unless I see something of actual content. Because obviously our interactions are going to prove to be a detriment to actual scumhunting from now on.

Smashbard, stop it.

Hiraki may be bitchy all around, but you are doing personal attacks on specific players. That's not cool. Attack people's playstyles as much as you want, but don't descend to this level. That sort of behaviour is far more childish than any "Me no likey" or grouchy snarkiness, and it goes against the spirit of the game. Yes, we need to be able to get people emotional, to make them slip up, but there are limits to everything. With all due respect, I think you've overstepped that particular threshold.

...and as for Eleison making sense; are we even reading the same game?

Understood. It is perfectly ok for people like yourself, Hiraki, Eleison, and others to make derogatory attacks against new players, about how we know nothing and are useless distractions, but not ok when one of us actually fights back against your abrasive and offensive play. Duly noted.

[Smashbard]

Since nobody else feels it's important, I'd like to point out that Pirate Mollie is at L-2.

Speaking of which.

Unvote Shinori

.

Mollie, if you are lynched and you flip town, who are some of your biggest scum reads at the moment? Are they or are they not currently on your wagon?

My list has you as null leaning town. So think of it as a dying wish. Who would you prefer we look into the most if you die today? Of course if I'm wrong and you flip scum none of this will be relevant. But I'm of the suspicion that your lynch at this time is based on policy and not anyone really feeling you're scum.

[Smashbard]

To Pirate: Maenara answered that they had Jun in both scum and town piles because they didn't have a solid read and didn't know what to think of Jun. Post #184. Seems so long ago doesn't it?

As for my vote on Shinori, I didn't feel it was important to immediately unvote Shinori until all of my ISO's were finished. I only just started getting a town read on them after I read his ISO. Otherwise my vote before my reread was legitimately trying to pressure Shinori into giving better answers as to his Eleison suspicions. It failed horribly. But eh, not all pressure votes are successful. That's why I said near the beginning of the game I prefer to just vote for who I believe to be scummy. Because I suck at applying mere pressure votes.

[Smashbard]

Since nobody else feels it's important, I'd like to point out that Pirate Mollie is at L-2.

Why is this important Smashbard?

Do I really have to explain? I mean, I think it would be obvious. If you put someone close to a lynch it's only pro-town to let people know how far away they are from a lynch. That way anyone who is paying attention is aware "Hey, this person is this many votes away from death". That way lazy scum can't just quick switch and pretend like they didn't know Pirate Mollie was going to be lynched from their vote. Setting the proper expectations helps ensure a everyone is on the same page and prevents quick lynches without explanation.

Lots of self contradictions, such as this...

newb mistakes
...

...I am not trying to paint myself as a newb if anything my confidence is probably off putting to some people...

Why does a town player need to change their position/views or anything to the point where they have to contradict themselves?
The total kicker comes here though. I'll re emphasize it just to make it clear.

Changing position is fine so long as you are convinced by evidence that someone else presents to you that proves that your current state of mind is wrong. But in this case that didn't happen, and the whole "I'm a newb, but not a newb" contradictions that Mollie presented were certainly scummy to me at the time.

You name what amounts to a list of the newest players in the game here in your scummiest target list. Yet here we have a completely different list, and interestingly, two of the players on your original list haven't posted since. So just why are Telo and Thurhame not not scum anymore?

in post #241 I am clearly stating my approach to the game which is that I am starting from whom I think is town and work from there.

the people that I mentioned are not in my town pile so yes I want some engagment with them so I can get a read.

also I think it is just good town play to look at the people who are not as active and are not asking to be subbed out cos you will often find scum there.

not sure what problem you are with this except that you seem to think that if I say newbs are low hanging fruit and then I soft fos a newb is a contradiction, when it isn't since I am not directly going after them, I am SOFT FOSSING THEM.

when I read posts I look for the motivation behind the posts (scum or town) and to see if it is consistent with the flow of the game.

(emphasis added)

I was mostly interested in why two players, who had not posted since Mollie had them as scum targets, were no longer scum targets. They haven't done anything to clear themselves after all, because they haven't posted (in case you missed that bit). This is either lazy scum hunting or fake scum hunting. Go on read it.

"...the people that I mentioned are not in my town pile so yes I want some engagment with them so I can get a read."

Up to this point I agree with you.

They haven't posted so why did she not still want to "engage" them? If that is the case then why have they gone from her "soft fossing" (whatever that is) or scum list?

But this part confuses me. You either are mischaracterizing the post you are quoting or you made a typo somewhere. Because here you are asking why Pirate Mollie would not want to engage Telo & Thurhame, when Pirate Mollie explicitly says that she would like to engage Telo & Thurhame to get a read. So I'm going to need some clarification here as to the kind of point you are trying to make.

Next is this...

"I think going after newbs is a scumtell but I do not think that everyone who does it is scummy, town does it a lot."

This is nonsense with added vitamins. What it says to me is... "I'm not scum for going after newbs but anyone else who does is scum". It's just a massive self contradictory cop out, and is either only there because
1. Mollie is scum and is trying to backtrack on a fake scum hunt list. We obviously nedd to lynch
2. Mollie has been using "I'm a newb, stop picking on me" as smashbard pointed out, and the serious question then becomes why?

Sorry, that ended up being longer than I thought it would.

This is probably the most damning piece of evidence against Pirate Mollie. Because you cannot say going after newbs is a scumtell is town does it a lot. A scumtell by definition, tells you this is something scum will do, and you use it as a tool to out scum when they do it. So by saying town does it a lot, pretty much invalidates going after newbs as a scumtell at all. So it does very much look like Pirate Mollie was trying to phrase it in a way that says "It's ok for me to FoS all of you for going after newbs, but I can have newbs on my scumlist because I'm well...me?"

A lot of slips throughout today. Many of which I'd be willing to excuse as just speaking in a stream of consciousness and not necessarily paying attention to every detail of ones arguments, so contradictions may happen. But I certainly can't deny that a Mollie flip is probably going to give us the most amount of information at this point because Mollie has had interactions with just about everyone.

[Smashbard]

That way anyone who is paying attention is aware "Hey, this person is this many votes away from death". That way lazy scum can't just quick switch and pretend like they didn't know Pirate Mollie was going to be lynched from their vote.

Only applies when she is town.

But...

She isn't town.

?

Actually it also applies if Mollie is scum. Especially considering scum who may not be on the wagon and quickly jump onto the Pirate Mollie wagon as a buss to try and get towncred. Players are already leaping to the Wagon with little to no explanation. With so much as an unvote, vote two liner post, such as yourself. Hiding behind the wall of suspicion that Pirate has already built for herself doesn't immediately excuse suspicion from anyone on her wagon if she flips town. I don't like the feel of this lynch, but until McStab posts or Thurhame gets replaced I don't have any better suggestions.

[Smashbard]

I had Thurhame pegged as scum when he was in that slot, but he may have just been a bad player (or too busy like he said, stranger things have happened).

Looking at Thurhame's iso, he does focus pretty hard on two specific lynches without providing really any rationale. They both also happened to be fairly popular.

Guys, Thurhame is town. Believe me. We have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Like mollie and PMysterious.

This doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Smashbard]

Look guys, activity is pretty much faltering at this point. Nobodies coming up with any better ideas and what people are coming up with is either rehashing what's already been said about Pirate Mollie or grasping at straws at the Thurhame player slot.

I see a lot of complaints about lurkers. I don't want to suggest that we start lynching some of them because I'd rather lynch scum for sure. But guys like McStab and Evilpacman are normally very active, concise pro-town guys when they are town. They came into this game with a flurry, and now have done virtually nothing. I am down with either lynching them or piling on some pressure to force some content.

Guys like PMysterious, Telo, Shinori and NJAC are getting away with very little content. We can start putting pressure on one of them, but I don't want to start the whole "Low Hanging Fruit" fiasco again so maybe it's better to get rid of Pirate Mollie so that crappy defense can no longer be stated and derail the town.

Eleison & Maenara haven't posted in a while. At least, not anything that's helping moving the game forward.

The problem I'm running into with with is that we'll never get guys like Hiraki, Theo, Mollie, Slandaar and Numbers (the guy with numbers for a name) to come together to agree on anything. Dividizzzle and Jun seem to be the only ones who look like they are ready to compromise for the sake of moving the game forward. And even if we could get all of these people to come together for a lynch mob you only have 8 votes,that's including myself. Not enough for a lynch. But it may be enough to scare some people into participating so that we can get the game moving again.

When half the game is lurking, there's a problem. I wouldn't be surprised at all if most of the scum is hiding in the lurker pile because if anybody called them on it they could just jump in and say "What about these other half a dozen people who haven't posted?" and get an easy escape from suspicion and the need to be active. So let's lead by example.

Vote: McStab.

Evilpacman at least has an excuse saying he's got school work taking up his time. McStab on the other hand just continually prod dodges and then came in with a bad case on dividizzle that gained even less traction than the starting PMysterious wagon. This is very different from his normal town play that I have read, as he is normally very aggressive whether or not he is under suspicion. Also, someone else noted that he's been posting in other places around the board, but not here. I'm sure he'll come back in a day or two letting us know that he's gonna have to some catching up. I say we give him some incentive to read a little faster.

[Smashbard]

I'd love to vote Pirate Mollie just to get the ball rolling and generate some interest in this game. But I feel Mollie is town, and if I'm going to willingly lynch someone who I think is town, I'd rather it be a lurker. So I guess we just stand here and wait for someone to change their minds. I've got no better ideas that doesn't amount to just "lol policy lynch". So what about you guys?

If someone can convince me that Pirate Mollie is really lying scum rather than just stream of consciousness town, I'll switch my vote. Until then, I guess I'm coasting like everybody else.

[Smashbard]

Man I can't believe I missed that. I knew I had Thurhame's slot pegged as scum for a reason.

Unvote.

Vote: 10506670

[Smashbard]

My suspicion of you is in the specific phrasing you used. "I won't use my insanity as an excuse for scumslips". Town doesn't plan on making "scumslips". If you mean what you say and stand by your reads and suspicions you shouldn't have to have back up excuses for scumslips. You shouldn't be reading them as scumslips at all. Because if your logic is sound and you believe in what you are saying you will fight accusations of scumslippage and explain why what you said is indeed, not a scumslip.

The admission that you already know ahead of time that you're going to make scumslips pretty much by definition means that you will make a slip that will implicate you as scum. Which tells me right out of the gate you are trying to blend into the town, but already know you're going to slip up and make mistakes in your logic. Which reads to me like uncomfortable scum who is trying to just smooth over any mistakes he makes beforehand by jokingly saying "I won't use the insanity defense". What kind of defense will you use? Why do you need a defense at all? Maybe because you know you're scum.

[Smashbard]

Hmm, good point. I retract my town read on Thurhame/numbers guy. He can be an unsure read for now.

Serious question here: What does it take in your eyes for someone to be declared scummy on Day 1? I'd like everyone to answer this question. Because your reads, Jun, as well as those of Dividizzle, NJAC and Telo, have been confusing me for a while now.

Players can making normally damning slips, that in almost any other environment would of gotten them lynched by now, and your reads don't seem to change much. Scumslips cause town reads to just become null instead of scum. Analysis that is late to the game like Telo's would be slammed as not paying attention in most games, but some of you read it as Pro-Town points.

I'm trying to gauge why some of you are being so...I dunno what's a nice word for it...difficult to work with? Pirate Mollie expressed earlier about wanting to form Triangulation teams but I really can't imagine triangulating with most of you people because I could dangle a Scum PM Role of another player in front of you and it feels like you'd still drag your feet to the wagon.

Cautiousness is fine, it's a natural town reaction that we all feel because we are not sure what's going to happen on the flip, and sometimes we don't want to see what's behind curtain #2. But overcautiousness, fence sitting, stalling and low confidence in your own reads is only serving to stall the game and allow half of us to lurk like crocodiles.

Some of those things can be scumtells, but for now I'm really just trying to get some of my fellow newbies to throw me a bone here, what's it going to take for us to come together in agreement on a lynch?

[Smashbard]

Spoiler Tags for giant wall post of annoyingness.

Spoiler:

I don't feel that my analysis deserved to be slammed at all. My post about Mollie was observant and backed up by her response to it. I said that she'd given up and she confirmed that by saying that she's not fighting the lynch against her. I don't get how that's me not paying attention?

Because a lot of your analysis involved points revolving around how close Pirate Mollie was to a lynch, when by that time most people on the wagon already jumped off and we were focusing on Numbers scumslip. Your post seemed like it was analysis based on things already being talked about several pages ago, so you were behind the ball. That would look scummy to many people because unless you were already working on your case in a Word document or something there's no way you would of missed the new pages of content and still been thinking Mollie was going to get lynched.

When Mollie mentioned triangulation earlier I showed a willingness to learn the technique and she ignored me. I don't see myself as being hard to work with as much as I see myself being either over looked or my contributions being dismissed.

I can't speak for other players but for me a lot of what you've said so far beyond the above analysis of the Mollie wagon, has been just coasting through the game. That's not meant to be a jab at you. But you haven't really stuck out as a unique player as of yet. That's why you get commonly lumped into my arguments with guys like NJAC, Jun, and Shinori. Because none of you are really standing out, for better or worse. You've all kind of just danced around the wagons and followed other peoples logic. None of you have established a unique identity yet, because your contributions are all largely the same.

I also don't understand what you mean by fence sitting. To me, fence sitting means you can't make up your mind (vote). The only people that haven't voted are Mysterious and Pacman.

It's not always about votes though, or even how often you use them or where you put them. An example of fence sitting is like being wishy washy or waffly without sticking to a solid opinion that helps the game move forward. It's about as useful as saying "Charles Manson is either a psycho or misunderstood". Nobody gets any information out of that kind of argument.

Similar to posts like "I'm keeping an eye on this interaction between these two players, but I don't know if they are scummy yet". It's sitting on the fence because all you've done is post an observation with no meat behind it.

Or like Jun just did, when 5 other people have declared that Numbers posted a rather egregious scumslip, Jun makes a soft opinion saying "He's no longer town in my eyes, but not scum either". That doesn't help anybody. And is largely the quote that caused me to ask my question. Because it seems like you guys are purposefully dragging your feet in light of strong scum evidence.

Just because you can't be 100% sure of something, doesn't mean you can't have a solid opinion on it. Null tells are not solid opinions.

I'm willing to work with you but I'd like a good reason why my vote

shouldn't

be on Mysterious?

No, there isn't necessarily a "good" reason why we shouldn't lynch PMysterious. But the case is weak. All he's done is lurked. In order to successfully lynch him (which I'd love to do, because I hate lurkers) you'd have to have a particularly callous town. Because in my experience trying to convince your fellow players to lynch a lurker is like pulling teeth that have been compacted in the mouth.

So a PMysterious vote is a good one for policy reasons, but you'll never get a majority lynch on him because there are more players who have posted more content that we have to go off of and people want to lynch scummy individuals moreso than inactive individuals.

So when we are in this kind of situation where we are a week away from Deadline, players need to start making a choice between the two wagons. Either Pirate Mollie or Numbers should be todays lynch, as those are the two with the most traction against them. I think any argument that tries to convince people of a third lynch target will need to be VERY convincing in order to get any support at this point, which includes PMysterious.

TL;DR because I hate walls:

1) Your analysis would normally come under scrutiny because it's dated, as there really is no more traction to the Pirate Mollie wagon. So a lot of your case will be dismissed by most players because a lot of the experienced guys are already jumping on Numbers, and they want arguments for/against a Numbers lynch, not Pirate Mollie.

2) Fence sitting is where you don't dedicate a real opinion that helps to advance the game. When town is infighting over whether or not Player A or B is scum, and you go off in your little world and say Player F is scummy and lone wolf vote him, you're not contributing to advancing the game.

and 3) I'd love to lynch PMysterious, as well as any other lurkers this game. But you'll almost never find a set of players willing to lynch a lurker. Because there are more active players in the game who have more material to go off of, and it's easier to make a lynch on a scummy player than a lurker. Hence why scumlurking is such an effective strategy. Nobody will ever lynch a lurker unless they absolutely have to.

[Smashbard]

Telo...I'm voting for someone I believe to be scum and advancing the game at the same time. Thats the exact opposite of fence sitting. You on the other hand saying you want to be a lone wolf is a contradiction to your earlier claim that you are willing to

[Smashbard]

Work with us. So since you are lying about wanting to work with the town, and find liars to be scum, can we lynch you now?

[Smashbard]

You say its blindly following, but there are mountains of text that you can analyze to get a scum read on anyone. You're being lazy, sticking with a PM vote that was relevant 14 PAGES AGO!

[Smashbard]

I'm out of patience with your scum stalling. Are mollie and Numbers your scumpartners that you're not willing to buss? Serious question.

[Smashbard]

I had my vote on McLurker and was willing to change when real scum came to light. If you plan on no longer participating replace the fuck out. You obviously meant 'I'm willing to work with you...but only for a PM lynch.'

[Smashbard]

Its called pressure mollie. With Telos reluctance to help the town he's being very scummy. Maybe by temporarily putting the crosshairs on you and numbers as his partners he could be forced to vote differently.

[Smashbard]

I swear nobody can even mention you without you flipping out. Even if youre town you should probably be lynched just out of policy with how defensive you are.

[Smashbard]

The thing that is really baking my noodle here is that in the games I have played on this site I have hardly seen mention of the term scumslip, yet in Number-dude's two games on this site there is much disscusion of the term. I'm trying to decide whether this is why he doesn't understand the term, or whether it was clear from the references in the newbie game's as to it's meaning.
I think in one of his newbie games (1244) the meaning of "scumslip" is made

very

apparent, so I don't see how he would really have a different meaning from everyone else.

Oh no, I just did meta

Seriously theomoaner? This isn't intended as an attack on you personally, but you really need to pay a bit more attention to exactly what you're condemning. I had a general idea of what a scumslip is - it's something that seems to implicate the user as scum. If you had actually read my second newbie game (1253), you would have realized this from the Conman "scumslip". But my point is that my previous definition differed in the

slight nuance

that both town and scum can scumslip*. It's a slight difference, but it really makes a difference in light of the accusations thrown at me.

Speaking of which, Slandaar, you are not responding at all to my numerous clarifications. You did, however, find the time to question Mollie about her unresponsiveness on me. I'm not saying that that's an invalid point, but are you /ignoring everything I've been saying?

*indicates my previous definition

You're still confusing scumtells with scumslips. Scumslips are when you say something that implicates you as scum. Scumtells are actions that you do that can be construed as scummy.


Here's some wiki entries for you so that you may finally understand that you are wrong, that you can't just change definitions to your liking to weasel your way out of suspicion, and hopefully you just surrender yourself as scum and allow us to move on to start finding your scum partners Day 2.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumslip

Scumslipping is something you say that gives you up as mafia, 100%.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumtell

Subjective tells that what you do is a scummy action. These are the things that town and mafia can both do.

Town and mafia do NOT scumslip. Only mafia scumslips. So anybody who's still stuck on this line of reasoning can be at the top of my scumlist. Be warned.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: That's regardless of what my previous read on you was based on my ISO's. Only scum are going to continue stamping their feet demanding that town can perform scumslips. Because you're just looking for an easy excuse to get yourself out of any obvious mistakes you make to confuse us and make us more paranoid than natural that nothing that anyone says can be construed as a scumslip because "both town and scum do them". Bullshit.

[Smashbard]

I highly doubt that theo. Mollies fighting against Numbers lynch has really made me rethink Mollies alignment. But if numbers flips town against all odds I would almost guarantee Mollie is town.

[Smashbard]

I'd be down for a shinori lynch. It accomplishes 3 things. Lynches a lurker. Lynches a useless player, town or scum. And of course, moves the game forward so we can gather real evidence and info.

[Smashbard]

However, we have the most lurktastic antitown group of players in the history of ever. So you'll never get 9 players to agree on a lynch. I can almost guarantee that there is active scum among us. And they will derail every lynch attempt.

[Smashbard]

Hence why my top scum picks as of now are Numbers, for his scumslip. And Mollie, Telo and Hiraki. For their refusal to help the town and constant attempts to undermine every wagon.

[Smashbard]

Even if Mollie or Telo is town, shes in my policy lynch pile of Mollie, Telo, Shinori, NJAC and Evilpacman for borderline game abandonment or just refusing to be useful.

[Smashbard]

I See dividizzle, theo, eleison, buldermar and maenara as town right now.

[Smashbard]

Oh hi shinori. Fancy seeing you show up the second someone votes for you.

[Smashbard]

Numbers was never at L-1 so you couldnt hammer if you wanted to. And if he is scummy enough to hammer hes scummy enough for a vote. Which you havent done.

[Smashbard]

So you've basically already admitted that you will only vote opportunistically, and with how hard you argued with Buldermar over Numbers scumslip you obviously didnt want him lynched. So youre a liar too. Consider any town read I had on you rescinded.

[Smashbard]

Numbers post 571 is good enough for me.

Unvote. Vote: Mollie.

[Smashbard]

Thank you Telo for mentioning Juns refusal to vote for Numbers or Shinori. That is worth looking into. I'd like both of thoughts on Juns statement.

[Smashbard]

Both Shinori and Numbers thoughts. Having a town read is fine. But refusal? Thats scumtastic.

[Smashbard]

I'm going to post my top three based on Pirate Mollies flip, because some of my reads change drastically when it comes to this wagon.

If Mollie is Scum:
Telo (His refusal to vote for Mollie under any circumstance would really out him as a scumpartner)

Hiraki (Only seems to pop up when people mention him, unless his planned "mega omg amazing" post that he's been promising us for days turns out to be a gay sea otter and blows me out of the water)

Evilpacman (Scumalerts come from his lack of protown actions that I've seen from his town role meta, as well as his only contribution being that he promises to hammer).

If Mollie is Town:
Jun
Shinori
Numbers

= Scumteam due to Juns refusal to vote for either of them, Shinori's tunneling on Eleison and being useless, as well as keeping an eye on Numbers actions throughout Day 2 to see how he picks up after the whole scumslip fiasco.

[Smashbard]

eleison
shinori
jun

This is absolutely terrible.

So you think I've been tunneling my scum buddy since I joined this game? Is that what this is? You think I'm doing the worst of all scum gambits day 1 and just following it through without ever changing my ideas on elieson? Why do you think both me and elieson are scum? What gives you logic that we are both scum? Seriously. This logic is terrible and just makes you more scummie than ever.

Elieson
Mcstab player slot (Forgot who subbed in)
And pirate Mollie.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Pirate Mollie.

Die.

You know what's terrible? The fact that you refused to answer my question as to your thoughts on Juns refusal to vote for you before you hammered, effectively preventing me from getting an answer from you or Numbers before the night phase. Nice dodge, scum.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: You better be sure to kill me tonight, Shinori. Because I'm going to be all over you like dollar bills on a taiwanese hooker tomorrow.

[Smashbard]

My way of playing says you don't hammer in the middle of players asking questions and expecting answers. Especially when YOU are one of those players that have questions pointed at you.

Vote: Shinori

Theomoaner, why are you going for Telo at this point? I'd at least like some form of explanation, even if it's just based off play from yesterday.

[Smashbard]

And to Evilpacman, I'm going to tell you the same thing I tell everybody who has acted like this Day 1. If you don't feel like participating or putting in the effort, replace out. Just, replace out. It's a helluva lot better than just sitting around being the crotchety old man complaining about how "bad" everyone is being at this game that you can't be bothered to pay attention. Let someone who wants to play the game take your spot. It's not like you've done anything so far of any worth.

[Smashbard]

Slandaar's death doesn't tell me much. The obvious finger can be pointed towards Numbers due to Slandaar coming close to getting him lynched Day 1. But otherwise without Pirate Mollie around Slandaar didn't really have many connections. My next post after work will be ISO analysis of Slandaar and Pirate Mollie to solidify some of my reads.

[Smashbard]

I do that in posts sometimes when I'm perty sure someone is scum.

Whether I'm hammering or not, it just means I'm most likely not gonna move my vote from said person.

It would probably take me forever to find another time I did it though because it's generally rare.

Also I don't even remember the questions you asked supposedly about my vote on you, that was like some odd number of pages ago.

Remind me what they are scum?

Oh please. If you expect me to believe that bullshit then you really are desperate. You hammered in order to try and dodge the questions posed against you. You STILL have yet to answer my question as to your thoughts on Jun refusing to vote for you. And that wasn't a number of pages ago, it was TWO. You can't get away with dodging questions by hammering, you can't get away with laziness by pretending as if two pages ago was sooo long ago that you can't possibly remember. Quick squirming and die.

[Smashbard]

I don't find anyone scummy for offering to hammer. I think that's either town v. town bickering and grasping at straws or scum calling out town for a mediocre scumtell.

I think PMysterious is the most suspicious to me for lurking.
VOTE: PMysterious

No. PMysterious isn't even in the game anymore. Are you TRYING to go for the defense that you're too oblivious to be scum? Because even a cursory look at the vote count will reveal that PMysterious is no longer in this game. Hell, he was replaced out at the end of Day 1! It was two-three pages ago at most people. For christs sake. I understand people feeling hesitant about wanting to reread 27 pages of a game, but two? Jesus.

[Smashbard]

Well gee Telo, if this game isnt moving that fast how about you I dunno, fucking contribute more than lone wolf votes that dont help us worth shit!

[Smashbard]

I've heard enough whining from people about how slow and boring this game is when you've done nothing to change it. You dont question, you dont hunt, you dont even bother TRYING and yet its the games fault youre bored. Get over yourself.

[Smashbard]

The nerve that you have to bitch about this game when you only vote for random ass people for no good reason until half the town is on you to do something. You wait around for shit to go down and then do nothing still to help out.

[Smashbard]

Hey, why is numbers so quiet anyway?

[Smashbard]

Everybody whos not in favor of a Shinori lynch needs to give a convincing case as to who is better. Telo, I'm only so hard on you because you have the most potentiol to be a protown player and it frustrates me to see you waste it by doing nothing.

[Smashbard]

Like... What? Mykonian DID private message me. Hence my explanation to you why I was being harsh. I am not an abuser, but I do want to catch scum. So i get aggressive to get you guys rolling. Nobody else is stepping up so I have to if we have any hope.

[Smashbard]

I do apologize for crossing the line. My intent is not to drive people away. Rather, to get you engaged in actually playing and trying to win.

[Smashbard]

Elieson is town, folks. All shinori has done to defend himself is continue his day 1 tunneling of Elieson. If hes not scum, hes a lyncher. If we're lynching based on meta, Pacman slot needs to go.

[Smashbard]

See,. I'm about two posts away from finishing what I started at the start of this day. The clue will change the face of this game. So i suggest you rethink an Elie lynch.

[Smashbard]

Or you know, we could lynch Jun. Since everyone seems convinced hes at least in some kind of scum pile. I already stated my shinori case. He hammered to dodge questions. And then pretended to not know it was a hammer. Scumslip city.

[Smashbard]

Now the real fun begins.

[Smashbard]

Really sorry for outing us so early, Elieson. But you were getting alot of negative attention over really dumb reasons and would rather try to save a town player than let you die just to keep a secret.

[Smashbard]

PMysterious didnt do enough to make me get a scumread. Enigma has benefitted from there being scummier suspects around, but I've noted his opportunistic play thus far.

[Smashbard]

I have never played with masons before either, but clearly they were in contact so the other option is that they are mafia, which could explain the day 2 start. This doesn't seem reasonable because one would suspect that mafia would target a claimed mason with a night kill.

The problem with this logic is that we just claimed. Mafia hasn't had a chance to kill us yet. At this point they have two options. 1) Use their nightkills on us to get us out of the way or 2) Try to leave us alone and frame us as a scumteam, as you have insinuated.


My response to which is that in a 16 player game, there's going to be more than 2 mafia, guaranteed. It wouldn't make sense for two mafioso to just go at it on their own and try to save each other with mason claims, leaving their partners in the dust. Especially in the event one of them were to get lynched anyway, then they would essentially screw themselves.

It's not ideal that we claimed so early, as the original plan was to bread crumb our roles with the whole first letter of every post Day 2 thing, then refer back to Day 2 to confirm the surviving mason if one of us should die. But other circumstances have arisen, which gives me red flags on quite a few players behaviors. More on that once I've had a chance to analyze Mollies Day 1 wagon, Slandaars interactions & Shinori's day 2 wagon.

But there are benefits to this situation. Scum are in a tough spot regardless now. They either HAVE to deal with the Mason group, thus possibly leaving other town power roles alone to do investigations/protections and what have you. Or they HAVE to leave two people they know are collaborating town alive, who have the exact same night talk benefits they do, in an attempt to frame us.

[Smashbard]

While I still continue to draw correlations between the Mollie/Shinori Wagons, Eleisons wagon and Slandaars death, I'll comment on a few things.

I don't believe there is an SK this game. Otherwise two kills would of went through last night. I'm more inclined to believe there is a big 4 person Mafia. But this is a Mykonian set up, you never know what's going to happen. I'd be kind of surprised if this was just a cookie cutter set up with mostly Vanilla Townies, a couple of Masons and flavorless Mafia.

Maenara, why vote for NJAC as opposed to someone like Hiraki, Enigma or Jun?


I'm getting really annoyed at all the mudslinging of people complaining about Sheeping. Especially since we just went through hell on Day 1 to get everyone to even come together on a lynch. So I'm officially keeping a hawk eye on the Sheep accusers for trying to disrupt town cooperation.

Vote: Jun

Being that you were the one who made the original claim that you refused to lynch Numbers and Shinori day 1, I want answers. Getting you to flip is going to give me the most information as to whether or not Numbers, Shinori or NJAC is scum. NJAC because he's the other guy next to Thurhame/Numbers you were trying so hard to confirm town due to one previous games meta.

[Smashbard]

God I've got a lot of questions brewing right now. Good thing I have the next two days off. Expect each player in this game to have at least one question asked of them once I'm done doing my research. I'll be keeping a running counter at the end of my posts to keep track of who's answered my questions or not to make sure none of you guys have a chance to dodge my inquiries. They will be very important for me solidifying some reads of this game.

[Smashbard]

Also, what the hell's with the Mason claim?

I guess I'll explain this again, but it's honestly getting a little tiring having to say this half a dozen times.


We were bread-crumbing our masonic claim to reference day 2 later in the game in case one of us ate a nightkill in order to prevent Mafia from being able to counter claim as the dead masons partner. We thought it was important to plant evidence for future reference to ensure that nobody could counter claim our partnership and get away with it. Since the dead mason would not be alive to confirm their real partner.


Elieson had already piled on half the number of votes needed to lynch them. I made a rash, last minute decision to save them from any further votes. I saw how quickly the Shinori lynch piled up. It wasn't too far of a stretch for me to believe that if I didn't act then, Elieson could very well be dead before dessert.

So we're not exactly in an ideal situation. We can't prove 100% that we are masons until one of us dies. So I haven't been biting back against the many skeptical responses to our claim. I know how suspicious it seems. But at least now the Mafia knows we exist, so they HAVE to deal with us. In the mean time I'd like to hear fresh scumreads from everyone available. Even if you just have one surefire suspect. Let's keep everyone in the loop of each others thought processes.

[Smashbard]

So…since that post of yours was so delightfully waffley, I’m gonna try to shed some light on your thought process.

Players on the Shinori Wagon Day 2:
Elieson, Enigma, Buldermar, Smashbard, Maenara, Hiraki, Numbers

If you believe the Mason claim, and don’t believe Numbers to be scum. This leaves Buldermar, Enigma, Hiraki & Maenara as suspects for opportunistic scum. From your analysis.

Players on Numbers Wagon Day 1:
Dividizzle, Slandaar, Maenara, Smashbard, Buldermar, Theomoaner, Elieson.

If you believe the Mason claim, and we know Slandaar is dead, this leaves Dividizzle, Maenara, Buldermar & Theomoaner as suspects for opportunistic scum. From your analysis.


Thus, by correlation, this breaks down your scumreads like thus:

Buldermar, Hiraki, Enigma, Maenara, Dividizzle and Theomoaner are more than likely scummy in your eyes.

Buldermar & Maenara are present on both wagons. Making them quite possibly your top two scumreads.

But in Post #717, you claim that Enigma & Pacman are your two biggest scumreads. Only one of which was present on the Shinori wagon, with Pacman not being on any of your wagons where you’ve called out scum leading sheep town astray.

At least four of these people should be in your scumpile, if you believe there is a team of 4.

Leaving room for only two of these players to be construed as sheeping town, rather than opportunistic scum.

So since you’ve said that Pacman & Enigma are your top two scumreads, and Enigma was on at least one of your opposed Wagons,

it’s safe to say you believe Enigma is scum.

However, you’ve moved on to Maenara, citing that Enigmas wagon hasn’t gained any traction. But you don’t want to lynch him for the reasons stated, thinking he only deserves pressure, despite pointing out he probably has insider information, as well as him being on both of your opposed wagons.

This reads to me like scum Jun distancing himself from the Maenara partner wagon, while still voting for him to look town, while at the same time discouraging people from lynching him for the same reasons you’re voting for him.

Tell me why this isn’t true.

Which leaves Buldermar, who is the only other person who was on both wagons you opposed, yet you don’t seem very set on believing he is scum. So this reads to me like you believe he is just sheeping town.

So to break it down, from the above analysis, I can use my logicbrain to concur the following things:

You believe Enigma is scum for sure. Qwints is second scum out of nowhere. While you see Buldermar as sheeping town, and only want to pressure Maenara. Leaving Hiraki, Dividizzle or Theo as the other two scum.

So if you would be so kind, please elaborate your reads on Dividizzle, Theo and Hiraki. Are they apart of the sheeping town from their respective wagons or are they scum leading false lynches?

Your answers to my questions will greatly impact my read on you for the rest of the game.

[Smashbard]

To Qwintz: I was going to finish my bread crumbing regardless of what happened, that was the plan after all. so I was more afraid of him being lynched than me finishing my code.

To Jun: I analyzed the Numbers and Shinori wagon because those were the two players you said you refused to vote for on Day 1, so I wanted to get your thoughts on those wagons and the people within those wagons so that you could commit to actually saying WHOM you believed were sheeping town and WHOM you believed were scum leading the trains. So I could test to see if you actually believed in Shinori/Numbers as town, or if at the time you were just blindly protecting scumbuddies without real reasons.

With Enigma being your top scumread, that could explain your train analysis on Shinori. But...there is no scum candidate leading the train on Numbers from Day 1. As it was a Slandaar based train, with myself being the second player really pressing Numbers at that point. One of which is proven town, one of which you believe to be town. So who was the scum leading the Numbers train?

[Smashbard]

Oh and by the way, Slandaar's death tells me scum was on the Mollie Wagon. I stated specifically, and a few people agreed with me, that depending on Mollies flip that would decide Slandaars alignment. So I believe scum killed Slandaar because it was a "safe kill" that wouldn't necessarily implicate anyone, while also depriving the town of information being able to look to Slandaar as a possible confirmed town in Day 2.

My next post will analysis the Mollie wagon, and correlate my results from the Numbers, Shinori and Elieson wagons, as well as my grilling of Jun so far, to determine for myself who I believe to best be our scumteam, or at least who's most likely to be scum.

[Smashbard]

Mollie Wagon:
Hiraki, Jun, Slandaar, Theomoaner, Smashbard, Buldermar, Elieson, Telo, Shinori

Elieson Wagon:
Hiraki, NJAC, Maenara, Shinori.


There is no common denominator of one player being on all 4 wagons. But I didn’t exactly allow the Elieson wagon to gain enough steam to draw any real correlations between it.

However, between the three major wagons of the game thus far, here are the commonalities.

Buldermar.

If there is a case to be made about opportunistic scum, Buldermars the only one that fits the bill on the Numbers, Mollie and Shinori wagons. If we count the Elieson wagon, here’s a few more suspects that at least fit the bill 3 out of 4 wagons.

Hiraki (Mollie, Elieson, Shinori)

And

Maenara (Elieson, Shinori, Numbers)

So here’s my top 4 suspects for scummiest players, listed in order from Scummiest to least scummiest, based on Mollies wagon.

Maenara
Hiraki
Jun
Buldermar

Buldermars at the bottom because I originally had this guy pegged as town. But his recent drop in activity since the decline of the Shinori wagon is particularly disheartening.

Speaking of which, my top town read Day 1 was Theomoaner. And yet he has been all but non existent Day 2. Scum possibly hiding below the radar after a mislynch to avoid scrutiny and suspicion? I think it’s very possible.

For now, my vote stays on Jun until I finalize my conversation with him as to who he believes is scummy or not.

[Smashbard]

I'm here, just reading. Unlike you apparently, My post count for day two is almost as high as NJAC's and Dividizzle's for the entire game. Non-existent?

try reading the bit where I said I was busy today (and for the next few days), We haven't all got two days off.

I'm trying to figure out a way to explain this, because simplifying figures of speech is kind of hard when you actually have to think about it.

When you say "all but non-existent" you generally mean he's been everything but non-existent. As in, your activity is low, but not non-existent.

Does that make any sense? I'm not being condescending, I really want to know if I'm making any sense. My head hurts after all that wagon analyzing.

Your snarkiness is noted though. If you can't see why someone would be suspicious of you after you being my #2 town pick Day 1, and then going for not contributing a whole lot Day 2, then you're just being overly defensive.

[Smashbard]

Mae, the problem with trying to lynch active lurkers is that there are always players defending lurkers to the grave. Thus unless we have real evidence to go off of, Its just going to be a policy lynch

[Smashbard]

...wait, so because some people defend them for stupid reasons, it's a policy lynch? What?

I really REALLY hate getting into these kind of discussions, because nobody is ever able to come to an agreement and God knows I'm going to shoot myself in the face if someone starts spouting off more bullshit about only targeting low hanging fruit.


But here's my stance, as clear and concise as possible. Take from it what you will.

I would love to be able to lynch all lurkers. It's my favorite policy in the world. Regardless of alignment.

But most players never want to lynch lurkers. Lynch all Lurkers by definition is a policy lynch.

Most players will tell you they want to lynch scum. Which is all fine and dandy, I'd rather lynch objective scum than subjective lurkers. But Lurkers piss me off a lot more than scum. Because I hate watching a thinking man's game be won by laziness and hiding in the shadows, rather than actually being a skilled player.

It's the equivolent of camping in first person shooters. It's the laziest, cheapest, most aggravating form of play possibly. Because you're not winning off skill, you're being a coward and reaping the benefits of people not being able to get information form you.

But this subject has been debated to death for probably decades by men a lot more knowledgeable about Mafia than I am. Hence why I hate discussing it. Because it never gets anybody anywhere.

And that's why I get so aggravated at active lurkers. I'd rather lose because a crafty scum player was able to fool the whole town with their lies than lose because you were camping with a sniper rifle and just waiting for everyone else to kill themselves.

[Smashbard]

re is a scum link between Telo and Maenara. Mostly because well, Telo is replacing out. I don’t believe scum would replace out due to “abusive” posts being slung their way. It is indicative of someone who doesn’t have thick enough skin to get along with aggressive players, but scum KNOWS they are scum. They know that if they slip up, people are going to on them like the police state in a lady gaga music video. I hardly believe scum is going to replace out because curse words are coming their way, as they probably feel dirty enough being scum players to begin with. So Telo’s replacement reads to me like a town slot that couldn’t take the heat, not scum who couldn’t handle the pressure of being suspected of active lurking.

[quote=buldermar] I was looking forward to questions, but none were posed. Some of you seem to suggest that I've been sheeping. Let me clarify something: I was one of two people to explicitly clarify on day 1 that I was going to vote Shino on day 2: [/quote]

Sorry I didn’t pose any questions to you. But that was mostly because I was using you as an analytical point, not really because I thought you were scummy. You are in my town pile, so I didn’t feel the need to pressure you for answers of your votes.

But here’s a couple anyway:
Do you feel that Jun’s responses to me are genuine town logic? He clarified quite a few reads for me, but what are your thoughts?

Do you feel it’s acceptable for town to not have sufficient defenses for what they have said previously, such as Maenara has exhibited? This is huge. Either it’s excusable for town to not know how to defend their own arguments, or it’s a big scumtell proving that we’ve (and by we I mean Qwints) caught scum.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP due to Microsoft Word Fail: I don't believe there is a scum link between Telo & Maenara.

[Smashbard]

I will be perfectly honest with you guys, because I feel like I've gotten to know some of you in some small way, so I feel like I can afford to let you in on my moment of weakness.

I just got a new TV and Cable installed this weekend after going a year without TV, so I've neglected this game in favor of messing around with hundreds of channels that I will never use nor watch again. So for that, I am truly sorry.

The following post with answer a question directed at me, stating my reads.

[Smashbard]

Refresh me. Without an vote analysis, what are your reads?

10506670: Initially had a very scummy read from him from Day 1. But I find him town as recently as Post #860 where he points to his own meta asking why it was relevant for Jun to use Thurhames one game meta to say "Trust me, he's town" but not bother analyzing Numbers own meta for the same purposes. I don't think scum would want to draw attention to previous games in case patterns could be drawn based on previous tactics.

Buldermar: I find him town. Actively engaging players in the game to ask him questions so he can be more involved in the process gives me warm town fuzzies.

Enigma: Scum. He started out real strong with being apart of the Shinori wagon. But upon reading #776 where he says "I almost don't know where the Shinori wagon came from" screams to me opportunistic scum who was just looking for an easy lynch, and now that it's cooled down is trying to look town by placing doubt on the early wagon that he was apart of.

Dividizzle: I want to play Weird Al's "Waffle King" just for this guy. I used to have a newbtown read on him. But he's so stuck on "Gee that Shinori wagon sure piled on fast, I'm so unsure!" that it makes me consider the very real possibility that Dividizzle and Shinori are scum.


Gotta go pick up my brother from work. I will finish this when I come back. Probably for the best. I need some pro-tip coaching on how to avoid these walls.

[Smashbard]

Being a large normal, I dont believe scum mason is a possible role. Gonna finish my reads tonight.

[Smashbard]

Sorry I havent been around. I get 2 days off again tomorrow to finish what I started. I support a Jun lynch. His flip will cement my reads on Shinori, Hiraki and Dividizzle

[Smashbard]

If Jun flips town I will eat my hat.

Get ready to start eating. I want this guy lynched tomorrow if I get hammered today. He was my biggest scum read until I switched to Maenara since his train wasn't gaining traction. Maenara and everyone agrees that he seems really scummy, yet nobody wants to vote him with me. Interesting.

Scum. Scum. Scum.

Hmmm... Would red wine or white wine go better with a hat?

Wow...revealing that you are aware that Jun is going to flip town much?

Unvote.

Vote: Enigma

Just to clarify, when someone says I'll eat my hat if a player flips town, and then proceeds to joke about what kind of wine they will enjoy with said hat, that just creeps me the fuck out with scumvibes.

[Smashbard]

Fuck it. I wanted to finish my reads on the players, but Elieson or I will probably be dead by tonight anyway, so I'm not sure even sure how useful a list is going to be anyway.

I will preface this though, I do believe Buldermar, Theomoaner and Quintz are town for sure. If I should not be alive come day phase, and Elieson agrees with that analysis, I would like the surviving Mason, Buldermar, Theo & Quintz to begin forming a voting block to weed out the scum. In my opinion it's go time, and unless the Block has reason to suspect one of their own, I think they should begin voting as a block as much as possible after today.

Unvote. Vote: Shinori

[Smashbard]

If my analysis is correct, we should have 4 scum in a 16 player game. That means we CANT mislynch again. Otherwise we're in lylo. No more policy lynches.

[Smashbard]

Firstly, WE are not bad masons. I am, but not Elieson. Secondly, I only want a voting block formed if one of us is dead. Theres no way I expect the town to trust us blindly so long as we are both alive.

[Smashbard]

So being that its quite obvious at this point that scum are keeping us both alive in an attempt to frame us, Jun is either top scum or falling for scums ploy. If you're town I'd suggest you think about that.

[Smashbard]

I'm not defending myself as I havent been accused of anything. Yet. Seems awfully convenient that you two are sharking on me though. This isnt overly complicated. Masons claimed so scum had two options, kill us or frame us.

[Smashbard]

I cant be sure of Maenaras motives hence why I never joined that wagon. Qwints dying is also an obv set up against Mae, so he may not be scum. But Enigma has been obvscum Ever since he gloated about Shinoris flip.

[Smashbard]

The opporunism is also there all through day 2. Enigma has done no thinking of his own, opting to ride on the wave of wagon after wagon. Lynch this man.

Vote: Enigma.

[Smashbard]

I wonder what kind of wine goes well with a hat. after saying you'd eat your hat if Shin was town. The only reason you werent lynched for that was due to time and Shin being an anti town policy lynch

[Smashbard]

Alright so i'm a big dumb ass for mixing up Shin and Jun. I'll take my licks for that. This is why Elieson is the good Mason. Doesnt change the fact that Enigma slipped that he knows how Jun will flip. That gives a few town points to Jun.

[Smashbard]

Maenara, Buldermar, if Enigma flips scum I believe I have the scumteam pegged. Dividizzle among them. I wont say the other two just yet. I dont want to count my chickens before they hatch.

[Smashbard]

Asking Hiraki to elaborate on his frequent changes of opinion is like asking a politician why they are going against their voting record as soon as they run for president.

Ironically useful for Mafia, but very frustrating to get a straight answer from.

[Smashbard]

If by people you mean Enigmas scum partners trying to cast doubt on his wagon through peer pressure, and Hiraki, then yes.

It takes 7 to lynch at this point, and if we are right with 4 scum, that means all scum has to do is trick 3 townies into sheeping along with them and they can get anyone lynched they want.

Which is why I urge anyone who has any desire to aid in a town victory at this point to please consider your own thoughts and opinions rather than just seeing 2-4 people hop on a wagon and go "Derp derp, other people think this guy is scum therefore he must be!".

We've been doing that all game and it's getting us nowhere.

No matter what happens, I really urge whatever power roles that are out there to let us know what you've found by Day 4 if we haven't lynched scum by then. If we get to lylo and all the power roles just shut their mouths and let us lose due to fear of counter claims, I'll be upset with you.

Inb4ragingaccusationsofrolefishing.

[Smashbard]

To NJAC: Buldermar is definitely town to me. But that wasn't my motivation to guide them towards an Enigma wagon. They were both voting for Dividizzle based on thinking he was scum, so I was letting them know that if Enigma flips scum that I can all but guarantee that Dividizzle is scum too. So I was saying in essence "Hey, if you think Dividizzle is scum, lynch Enigma and you will have more concrete reasons for lynching Dividizzle next".

To Dividizzle: I think you are scum because you are one of the few people trying to undermine the Enigma wagon by saying "Come on guys, it was just a hat joke" when in reality it's the biggest scum slip anyone has committed this entire game. Which makes me believe you are scum trying to protect your partner. If Enigma flips scum, you're pretty much done in my eyes.

The advantage of not revealing all of my reads is twofold: 1) I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch. and 2) By not revealing who I feel are the entire scumteam, I make you guys sweat and force you into a corner. If I am right about Enigma, you're going to have to think long and hard about how you're going to deal with the Masons quickly closing in on the rest of you.

[Smashbard]

I really want Enigma lynched, but I gotta admit, Theo's got a great point that I don't think should be ignored. Maenara has been consistently begging the possibility of their being an SK, which after two night phases makes zero sense for a town player to be insinuating. There is literally zero evidence that we can see that would suggest that. So Maenara very well could be scum who knows that their personal kills have not gone through.

If that is true, it gives me hope that we actually DO have some power roles still out there, because someone is doing a bang up job at protecting kill targets if there are two killers out there.

[Smashbard]

I hate to admit it, but at this point I don't think scum would so blatantly keep on this stupid hat thing just to get a rise out of Jun and I. Scum by their nature have to be self preservationists, and openly taunting all of us with his wine and hat jokes is practically begging for people to call on him for a lynch based on policy. Hell, he might even be a Jester, wanting to be lynched. But at least I'm having second thoughts as to his scumminess.

Unvote.

Vote: Maenara

I think Qwints would want this lynch more than anybody.

[Smashbard]

Tell me, Smashbard - What did you and your "mason"-buddy agree on for today? He seems to be lying low a bit.

To give you as much insight as I can, Elieson didn't say much of anything til the very end of the night phase when he declared to me that he was back from his trip to Disneyland. He seemed very distraught that Shinori flipped town, and thus I suspect that he's having the same problem Buldermar is having. We've mislynched again and again, and it IS very demoralizing to have to witness our reads be failures again and again.

Unfortunately, with no investigative roles coming out to let us know they have found something, we're basically screwed. I think the ONLY reason I have been as active as I have this day phase is due to pure stubborness. I refuse to let the scum have a perfect game, as even if I could just nail one of you guys before I die I would consider that a victory in it's own right.

But I can hardly blame anybody at this point for wanting to just give up. We're not getting any help from power roles, and quite frankly, our scumhunting sucks. So I don't blame Elieson for not participating much.


As for that insight I promised you, the most I was able to talking to myself was express frustration on our failures thus far. I said Enigma screamed scum to me at this point for his Jun gloating, as well as believing all four scum were on the Shinori wagon. Namely at the time, it was Hiraki, NJAC, Maenara & Enigma.

My reads haven't changed much. Beyond switching out one or two of you based on todays interactions.

Before that, Elieson and I were convinced Shinori was scum and wanted him lynched more than anyone. I think a lot of us were convinced Shinori was scum. And now that he has flipped wrongly, most of us have either threw in the towel or are close to giving up.

I'd say if you or Enigma flipped wrong I'd replace out due to the sheer shame of my failure as a scumhunter. But I'm going to see this game to the bitter end.

[Smashbard]

Oh yeah, and I said that if one of us should die the other should use their confirmed mason status to demand a mass claim from the rest of the players in this game to try and get SOME help into lynching the right people.

[Smashbard]

You know, I really don't care at this point if we have Scum, A Cult, An SK, a Jester, A Lyncher, A Miller, A Hated Townie or Werewolves running around. If somebody has any idea, any evidence at all to help right this ship in the proper direction, speak now. Otherwise we might as well policy lynch our way into oblivion since nobody can seem to come up with a concrete case not based on Policy based on the past two lynches. The wishy washiness that we've all done (myself included) where nobody is willing to commit to their reads for sure is killing us.

For far too many cases we've been going "Hey guys, this is either a really strong scumtell.....OOOOR it's a perfectly reasonable town reaction". And it's honestly making me sick. Can we all just grow some collective balls here and lynch someone for their scumminess and stop making excuses for them?

[Smashbard]

I'm cool with any wagon against Maenara, Enigma, NJAC, Dividizzle, Jun, Numbers or Hiraki. Yes I purposefully picked out 7 players so that they may collectively OMGUS me to death if need be to get this game rolling and Elieson confirmed as a mason. That way at least a protective role can keep Elieson save to lead the town into a comeback tomorrow, or if we really are a game of 10 Vanilla townies, 2 Masons and 4 scum, we can hurry up and lose so that I can move on to a game with a little more flavor. No offense meant Mykonian, I'm just tired and demoralized.

[Smashbard]

Unvote

I won't be party to a lynch that's main basis is an argument over the rules of the site. Tell me Maenara is Mafia who believes there are two kills that have been prevented? I buy that. Tell me he's scum because he presumably is trying to get a guy modkilled pages after the Mod has already made their ruling? I'm not down with that.

Vote: Enigma

I'm sticking with this lynch until somebody has concrete proof that scum lies elsewhere. If you want to lynch someone else you'll have to do it without me or give me some indisputable proof to think otherwise.

[Smashbard]

Yes that officially means I'm disregarding everything I said last night and sticking with the only official scumslip I have. That's proof to me. Regardless of how much Buldermar is trying to talk us out of it.

[Smashbard]

And before someone goes "Derp derp, why do you think Enigma is scum again?" I'll elaborate for you. He said that if Jun flips town he'll eat his hat. And for the past week has now been taunting us about how he's going to eat his hat once Jun flips town.

This tells me that he knows how Jun will flip. The only person who should know that kind of information at this point is Scum. And I'm not doubting that fact anymore.

I originally switched my vote because I trust Theo and Buldermar. But at this point I've been on the same lynch wagons as both of these gentlemen and we haven't caught scum once. I have to seriously reevaluate who I trust in this game. I wish Elieson was here.

[Smashbard]

If you are to lynch a mason, which is a horrible idea, then I volunteer. After I flip, I will be sorely be dissapointed in you guys if Elieson dies tonight as a confirmed mason and no protective role tries to save him.

[Smashbard]

The whole reason I didnt offer myself as day 2s lynch to confirm one of us was because The Mafia would just kill the 2nd mason night 2 and my lynch would be in vein. You will gain no info on a mason lynch if you cant protect the other.

[Smashbard]

I really gotta thank Buldermar though, his suggestion and the responses to it just solidified my scumreads.

[Smashbard]

Unfortunately my wife already knows what's going on, who I am, my alignment and my role. So I don't think offering her to take place in this game would be allowed under any circumstance. Even if she would just be taking over the Eliesons place and not have anymore information than Elieson would.

[Smashbard]

I can say with about 90% certainty that these are my reads. Based off of what has happened thus far this game as well as the most recent suggestion to lynch a Mason.

Town:
Theomoaner - Probably the most protown person this game. So if a mason is not lynched today and we have a protective role, I suggest protecting him. As the scum have had a pattern of destroying the most active and protown players each night so far.

Dividizzle - His ability to come to the conclusion that lynching a Mason is suboptimal because Mafia would just kill the surviving mason is spot on town logic. If he were Mafia, I would never assume he would kill their ace in the hole strategy of getting rid of the Masons by exposing it like that.

Hiraki - He's not scum. For reasons stated below. As scum he would be all over a chance to lynch a Mason. Most importantly, he's always had his OWN reasons for joining the most popular wagons. Making me think he's town laying low, rather than sheeping mafia.

Elieson: Mason partner. Herp.

Jun: Enigmas hat joke as well as Jun being the first to call Buldermar scummy for his suggestion. I may not agree that Buldermar is scum, but for someone who's intelligence has been called into question recently he certainly has big grapefruits for accusing one of the most protown players of the game of being scum over a lynch suggestion that doesn't even involve himself. If he was the sheep scum everybody keeps saying he is, he would of jumped on Elieson in a heartbeat. Also, his refusal to vote Shinori or Hiraki early in the game ironically being his most scummy tell before, has now become one of my biggest town reads of him.

Buldermar: Although his suggestion to lynch a Mason is the exact scumtell I've been looking for to nail scum for sure, I'm going to remain vigilant in believing that Buldermar is town. His only suggestion is due to the fact that none of us has a better idea that is universally agreed upon that's a good lynch target. So he's trying to get the game moving in the only way he knows how. I am now wary however, due to the fact that I believe Buldermar as town should be smart enough to know that lynching a Mason would directly lead to the second Mason being killed in the night, taking us right back to square one.

Null Reads:
Numbers: Normally I would say his lack of activity would be scummy. But I think it's explicitly against the rules for someone to use real life problems such as depression or a relative dying in order to gain town points when they are scum. So I don't think he would do that kind of move to gain an edge. Still, he hasn't done enough to solidify himself as town in my eyes.

TheButtonmen: He needs to elaborate on to his Hiraki wagon. As both of them arguing back and forth using one or two lines a piece isn't going to convince anybody of either side. They both are laying low, but TBM hasn't shown the same independence as Hiraki. But most of that is due to not having to tenure that Hiraki has in this particular thread.

Scum Reads:
Maenara: I wanted to say that Qwintz dying was an obvious set up for Maenara. But this guy is looking for literally any wagon he can sheep on just to get somebody to agree with his reads. As town you don't go from thinking one guy is suspicious, to a second target, to a third target, to a fourth target in the process of a few days JUST because the wagon isn't gaining traction. He's been testing the waters to try and see who would be a popular policy lynch and is getting frustrated that nobody is going a long with his wagons.

NJAC: Asking around the town to see how they feel about the Masons so that he can be careful enough not to suggest a Mason wagon if it would make him look too scummy or suspicious. But now that the ideas gaining traction he feels comfortable coming out with his scum strategy. Like Maenara, he's been testing the waters to see how everyone else thinks BEFORE he makes his move. He's more dangerous than Maenara, due to the fact that he's remained calm while Maenara has become impatient.

Enigma: My town read on Jun almost relies solely on the fact that this guy has been taunting us about how Jun will flip for over a week now. He's seriously gotten to the point where all he is posting is spam fluff now taunting everyone who tries to bring suspicion upon him. He's overconfident scum who knows that if his greatest scumslip isn't going to get him lynched, he's almost lynch proof, and he's rubbing it in everyone's face.

[Smashbard]

I have town reads on all the players who trust my claim because I know that it can be trusted.

[Smashbard]

I'm not letting you sew paranoia and discord for us anymore. Its time we solidified our reads and not let people like you keep casting doubt. Everyone should post their scumreads so we can find common ground.

[Smashbard]

Seriously, I'm not about to 'HERP DERP. These guys trust me they must be scum HURR'. I'd rather lynch the scum that would want the masons lynched so you dont have to waste a kill on us.

[Smashbard]

Also prod dodging. I really have nothing more to say. Enigma is my lynch today.

[Smashbard]

That's pretty much the crux of my suspicions on anyone who would suggest a Mason lynch at this point just because "We have an extra mislynch to throw away". If you wanted to test the Mason claim under the "good intentions" that at best case scenario we could confirm a townie, it should of been done the second I claimed. Not waiting until scum had a chance to set us up with a frame job by keeping us alive.

Hence why although he is still a town read to me, my confidence in Buldermar is severely damaged as to his intentions. Considering I have a STRONG scumread on NJAC that I don't think is going to be broken anytime soon, Buldermars strong defense saying that NJAC is the most town person to him right now is very damaging to Buldermars towniness, in my eyes anyway.

Anyway like I said, nothing short of a power role claim coming out and saying that Enigma is innocent is going to bring my vote from him. Without evidence, he's my strongest scum read. I'm not letting that Hat Joke go by without a flip.

[Smashbard]

Here I was thinking that after Maes giant wall that something different would be brought up instead of the dividizzle tunnel again. I guess I'm the pot, Maes the kettle

[Smashbard]

Theo: If Enigma flips scum I'd suggest a scumteam with NJAC, Numbers And Maenara. With the slight possibility of Buldermar is Maenara isnt just hardcore bussing

[Smashbard]

Ironic that TBM calls me lazy when he cant be bothered to elaborate on why Hiraki is the best lynch today. Guess its easier to lash out at players who wont follow his lead blindly.

[Smashbard]

Dividizzle said it would be a bad idea to lynch a mason because scum would just kill the second mason and we'd be back to zero info. This is what scum WANTS. So Divi exposing that plan is absolutely town.

[Smashbard]

I already laid this out as to why Dividizzle is town to me. So its very interesting for Mae to complain about being ignored when he ignores my own reads I already stated. We really are a black tea set.

[Smashbard]

Maenara, I said Hiraki was town. You are obviously checking out mentally at this point. Buldermar, Its not rocket science but that didnt stop you from suggesting it anyway, knowing it was a bad call?

[Smashbard]

Buldermar, Its not rocket science but that didnt stop you from suggesting it anyway, knowing it was a bad call?

You're still only arguing from the perspective of you/elei-slot indeed being masons. The implications of that has to be weighted against the implications of both of you being scum, taking into consideration the odds of both of these scenarios, respectively. You, however, is incredible biased in your assessment because you'll never be taking into consideration the implications of yourself being scum

regardless

of your actual alignment - nor should you. However, the fact that you continually seem to insist that, for instance, Dividizzle's analysis resembles the entire spectre of possible outcomes is disturbing and (to be completely honest) pretty fucking annoying. You can't just conclude that my motives are scummy based on the fact that I take into consideration

also

the possibility of you and elei-slot being scum - get that into your head right now, because I'm getting tired of repeating it.

Actually my increasing scumread on you is based almost solely on your defense of NJAC, whom I firmly believe to be scum. I am able to admit that it is indeed a personal fault of mine because I cannot simply consider how somehow with a town mindset can look at NJAC's actions and come to the conclusion that he is town. Hence why my read on you is shaken.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: It has almost nothing to do with the fact that you think Majiffy and I are scum.

[Smashbard]

Double EBWOP: I cannot simply consider how someone with a town mindset can find NJAC town.

[Smashbard]

I enjoy that Majiffy is putting a fresh perspective on things, even if I disagree on some of his reads. Particularly, just a page ago Majiffy said NJAC was null after 50 pages, but now he's townish. I'd like to know what he's seen that made his read change so quickly.

[Smashbard]

Because as much as my actions have dictated otherwise, I am not stupid. The second a mason wagon starts rolling you, Maenara and NJAC will be all over it as if you were for a Mason lynch the whole time, and the only reason you've backed off was because it quickly formed into an unpopular idea. I'm not letting you guys slide that one by without forcing you to look real scummy when it happens.

[Smashbard]

The only leeway I'm giving you at this point is your previous play being very town, and the fact that Majiffy says NJAC is town. So I have to reconsider my read on NJAC slightly because I know Majiffy is town. But make no mistake, I'm quickly getting this scumteam pegged. And I'm pretty sure Enigma, NJAC and Maenara are apart of it. Now it's just a matter of finding out who's with them and who's just falling for their bullshit.

[Smashbard]

Because as much as my actions have dictated otherwise, I am not stupid. The second a mason wagon starts rolling you, Maenara and NJAC will be all over it as if you were for a Mason lynch the whole time, and the only reason you've backed off was because it quickly formed into an unpopular idea. I'm not letting you guys slide that one by without forcing you to look real scummy when it happens.

Your reasoning is flawed. Your essentially concluding from "if buldermar was scum he'd do this and be all over it as if he was advocating a Mason lynch the whole time" that "therefore buldermar is scummy". It's a hypothetical scenario that never happened and, as such, I'm defending myself against your misconception of what I would have done and what I would not.

I'm not going to spend more time defending myself against your vivid imagination as of now. I'll put more effort into showing why your reasoning is flawed should I get close to lynched.

Political Translation: Damn son, you just exposed my plan so I'm not going to acknowledge what I would or wouldn't do in that situation so I can remain safely on the fence on this issue.


For anybody not on the Enigma Wagon, you need to make a convincing case as to why someone else is a better lynch for today. (Besides Maenara because nobody gives a shit about the Dividizzle Wagon). I've already made my argument as to what kind of reads we can get from an Enigma flip. Detractors need to do the same about the other wagons to convince a majority that your target is better than Enigma.

[Smashbard]

Because as much as my actions have dictated otherwise, I am not stupid. The second a mason wagon starts rolling you, Maenara and NJAC will be all over it as if you were for a Mason lynch the whole time, and the only reason you've backed off was because it quickly formed into an unpopular idea. I'm not letting you guys slide that one by without forcing you to look real scummy when it happens.

Your reasoning is flawed. Your essentially concluding from "if buldermar was scum he'd do this and be all over it as if he was advocating a Mason lynch the whole time" that "therefore buldermar is scummy". It's a hypothetical scenario that never happened and, as such, I'm defending myself against your misconception of what I would have done and what I would not.

I'm not going to spend more time defending myself against your vivid imagination as of now. I'll put more effort into showing why your reasoning is flawed should I get close to lynched.

Political Translation: Damn son, you just exposed my plan so I'm not going to acknowledge what I would or wouldn't do in that situation so I can remain safely on the fence on this issue.


For anybody not on the Enigma Wagon, you need to make a convincing case as to why someone else is a better lynch for today. (Besides Maenara because nobody gives a shit about the Dividizzle Wagon). I've already made my argument as to what kind of reads we can get from an Enigma flip. Detractors need to do the same about the other wagons to convince a majority that your target is better than Enigma.

Now you're expecting me to defend myself with hypothetical "I think I'd do this and that"'s? This is getting hilarious.

Oh I don't expect you to defend yourself at all. I know you'd jump on a Mason wagon opportunistically because you brought up the desire to test it in the first place, only "realizing" that it was a bad idea after half the town rebuked your idea.

The important thing isn't to convince YOU that this is your plan, but to convince everyone ELSE that this is your plan so that we can keep an eye on your actions and the motives behind those actions so you can't slip away under a thin veil of trying to look "protown" by lynching the only two claimed power roles in the game.

[Smashbard]

Your vote is on Dividizzle, someone that a good chunk of the people playing so far believe to be town at the moment, and only one guy agrees with you, who happens to be digging himself deeper and deeper into a scumhole the more he struggles to tunnel on one guy, while also opportunistically jumping on any wagon that gains steam...except for Enigmas. Which is my big argument for him being Enigmas scum partner. He's done a great job of making it seem like he would never be partners with Enigma due to his hatred of him. But if he wants him dead so much, why not join in the lynch for him? Because he knows how Enigma will flip, and he doesn't like the idea of an actual scum getting lynched on this day. They want to go for the clean sweep.


So tell me, how has the most anti town presence this day phase (Maenara) been able to convince a once bastion of protown logic such as yourself to join in on such a pointless, OMGUS filled tunnel wagon? What makes Dividizzle the scummiest person in the game, and not just yet another baseless policy lynch along the same lines of Pirate Mollie and Shinori?

If you're gonna lynch a dude for fence sitting, lynch NJAC. If you're gonna lynch a dude for not contributing, lynch Numbers. If you're going to lynch somebody because of a perceived scumslip, not only has Enigma made such a slip, but he's paraded the slip around for the past two weeks with such carelessness that he's stopped even bothering contributing to the game. Instead just reserving himself for posting one liners and spam because he now knows he's no longer expected to contribute to look town, and can afford to be as distracting as he wants to be because people like yourself will make excuses for him as to why it's not scummy.

[Smashbard]

I mean, I know it's hard for some people to do this, but just THINK about it. How active was Enigma Day 2 when Shinori's neck was on the line? He was practically leading that wagon pushing for more votes on the guy, presenting arguments and counter arguments as to why Shinori or Jun was the ideal Day 2 Lynch.

But once he got his way and Shinori got lynched, he has proceeded to drop off his level of activity to nearly nothing of usefulness. Instead just sitting back and playing arm chair critic about how useless everybody elses posts are. This is not the Enigma who replaced in like a ball of fire and took charge of Day 2's scumhunting efforts until Qwintz arrived.

Oh but his complete 180 in strategy since the last night phase isn't scummy at all right? Please, cut the bullshit and lynch the scum already.

[Smashbard]

Because as much as my actions have dictated otherwise, I am not stupid. The second a mason wagon starts rolling you, Maenara and NJAC will be all over it as if you were for a Mason lynch the whole time, and the only reason you've backed off was because it quickly formed into an unpopular idea. I'm not letting you guys slide that one by without forcing you to look real scummy when it happens.

Your reasoning is flawed. Your essentially concluding from "if buldermar was scum he'd do this and be all over it as if he was advocating a Mason lynch the whole time" that "therefore buldermar is scummy". It's a hypothetical scenario that never happened and, as such, I'm defending myself against your misconception of what I would have done and what I would not.

I'm not going to spend more time defending myself against your vivid imagination as of now. I'll put more effort into showing why your reasoning is flawed should I get close to lynched.

Political Translation: Damn son, you just exposed my plan so I'm not going to acknowledge what I would or wouldn't do in that situation so I can remain safely on the fence on this issue.


For anybody not on the Enigma Wagon, you need to make a convincing case as to why someone else is a better lynch for today. (Besides Maenara because nobody gives a shit about the Dividizzle Wagon). I've already made my argument as to what kind of reads we can get from an Enigma flip. Detractors need to do the same about the other wagons to convince a majority that your target is better than Enigma.

Now you're expecting me to defend myself with hypothetical "I think I'd do this and that"'s? This is getting hilarious.

Oh I don't expect you to defend yourself at all. I know you'd jump on a Mason wagon opportunistically because you brought up the desire to test it in the first place, only "realizing" that it was a bad idea after half the town rebuked your idea.

The important thing isn't to convince YOU that this is your plan, but to convince everyone ELSE that this is your plan so that we can keep an eye on your actions and the motives behind those actions so you can't slip away under a thin veil of trying to look "protown" by lynching the only two claimed power roles in the game.

If it wasn't because I - for reasons that

ONLY I

pointed out - find it fundamentally suboptimal for scums to claim Mason, I'd vote you for being so incredible illusory and anti-town. Having to deal with your stupidity at this point is becoming tedious - you fail to acknowledge the fact that you're tweaking your entire perception of events in this game to fit your newly acquired idea of my encouragement of discussion being a scum desire. As previously mentioned, this stems from your inability to comprehend that what may be optimal from your local vantage point isn't optimal from a global vantage point - that is, although discussing the possibility of you being scum is not optimal for your own win condition (even as town), it can easily be optimal for town as a whole to discuss. I'm beginning to have little faith in you being capable of understanding this at any point in this game. Therefore, I'm inclined to simply leave you be with your delusions and have you learn from your fatal mistakes once you - one way or the other - gets confirmation about my true alignment. Just keep in mind that I countless times pointed out how your reasoning is flawed and why it should be avoided, and you may end up learning something from this game.

All you've done so far is make excuses as to why certain players aren't scum. Ironically the very same players I have in my scum pile.


So let me break it down for you real, real easy.

The fundamental reason why you are no longer the most protown player in my eyes is BECAUSE I know what my alignment is, and I see scum for who they are. When I see someone like yourself come along and have the exact opposite position of myself, having town reads on those who I think are scum and having scum reads on those I think are town, it is ONLY logical for me to believe you are not thinking from the same town mindset as myself. Therefore, your alignment becomes skewed. Because you have failed to explain why YOUR reads are more logical than MY READS.

All you've done is try to tear down my positions as being "Lol, you trust those who believe the Mason claim". When I have posted ALOT more analysis than that concerning why I believe whom I believe to be scum and town.

So you may say I am stupid, but the ignorance lies on YOUR shoulders, because you've dismissed everything I've had to say based on just the assumption that I'm being delusional.

You want to complain about having to repeat yourself about how my views are skewed? Then I guess I'm going to have to tear my hair out if I have to explain to YOU one more time that lynching a claimed Mason was always a bad idea because the other Mason will just get killed and we'll be back to zero information Day 4.

So stop trying to defend your reasoning as if considering a Mason Lynch is this great Protown idea. It's not. It's failsauce in a jar. And I'll gladly mail it to your door with a postage stamp that says "Now with 50% more Fail!".

[Smashbard]

Progress! Thank you! Now if you would be so kind, tell me why lynching Dividizzle is going to have a better chance at finding scum than Maenara or Enigma. Particularly, what reads become clearer upon a Dividizzle lynch? If he's town? If he's scum?

[Smashbard]

*Sigh*.


If Enigma can't be scum because of his attitude, what use is he being kept around? If he has truly lost any interest in this game and doesn't want to play anymore, he needs to replace out. I know that's a daunting task for any potential replacement to take on, but at this point I have only two options.

1) Lynch Enigma. And let the chips fall. If we as a town suck so fucking much that we can't possibly catch scum in a million years, scum deserves to win. Because whoever they are they have remained so under the radar that we will never be able to catch them without an investigative role.

2) Keep Enigma alive. Where he proceeds to never be useful, never scumhunt, never pose his opinions, fill the thread with spam and otherwise become a third party Town Outsider whose sole goal is to ruin the game for everybody else by refusing to help us reach our win condition.


What is the point? If we're going to lose anyway, I offer myself up for the Lynch if Enigma comes up town. Because at that point, I would be just like him. I would just want to throw in the towel and let scum win.

I believed Pirate Mollie to be scum trying to undermine the towns efforts without a shadow of a doubt.

I believed Shinori was scum trying to lay lo and fence sit his way through the game, without a shadow of a doubt.

I believe Enigma to be scum who's made a huge scumslip and proven that Jun is town, without a shadow of a doubt.

If I continue to be wrong with example #3, I may just retire from Mafia as a player and just Mod games from now on. Because obviously my scumdar is so far off it's rocker the Scum must be high fiving each other during the night phase on how little effort they have to put in this game because the retarded ass Mason is doing all the work for them.

[Smashbard]

1) I meant that I'm a new player playing sorta poorly, in case you hadn't noticed. "Depending" on me is stupid; you should listen to my opinion, and weigh my arguments, but depending on me is out of the question, and hence a lousy hypothetical.

Just to clarify: are Buldermar and Theo obv. town? and when you said "depending on which

side

you lean to", what do you exactly refer to with "side" and how it relates to Buldermar and Theo, who of them is in the good side?

Now, just because you're a newb it doesn't mean you can't understand the game and be confident about yourself, right? Buldermar led the Shinori's wagon and he was wrong, he's not been in the site much longer than you, but he was confident about his read and tried to lead town where he thought was the best lynch. Think about it and tell me why town couldn't depend on you at any moment, just like it could depend on any of us...

Your play is harmful for town as you just point out some "scummy" things but you're not confident about it (and don't even care to press your scummy read enough) and spread your votes everywhere when there's a chance. If your wagons don't gain the "traction" you expect, maybe it's because you're not pushing enough, so you, in an OPPORTUNISTIC way, simply goes over someone who has gained that "traction".

This play of you is making you look very scummy and that's why my bet is on you...

For this, my scum read of you dissolves.

[Smashbard]

Sure. Lets lynch Mae. Hes still one of my scumreads. And I'm tired of the Dividizzle Tunnel.

[Smashbard]

Unvote.

Vote: Maenara.

[Smashbard]

Majiffy makes me smile. Funny ass dude. Just sayin.

[Smashbard]

You know we're fucked when we are considering process of elimination based on which people who have had the grapefruits to continue to slog on this game since the very beginning.

I nominate us collectively for the Worst Town Award for the 2012 Scummies.

Unvote. Vote: Enigma

Eh. I don't give a fuck anymore. I've argued for this guys lynch til I've been blue in the face and fingers. If the rest of you are too stupid to lynch him, I'll happily be just as anti town as Enigma. Since apparently it's not against the rules for Enigma to continually spam post, even though I'm pretty sure there should be a rule against purposefully playing against your win condition.

Let the spamfest begin until deadline!

[Smashbard]

Really buldermar? You chastise me for giving up but praise Enigma for giving up? Fuck you.

[Smashbard]

The nerve of you to defend Enigma time and again while chastising everyone else for not being town enough to you. I'm calling it. Buldermar is the 4th scum.

[Smashbard]

NJAC, who nominated me leader? I've single handedly almost cost us the game with my horrible reads. If there are 4 scum, we are in lylo. One more mislynch and we're done.

[Smashbard]

That said, I wont state my scumreads unless asked for them. I feel my bad rep will only damage the credibility of any wagon at this point. As its all 2 easy 4 scum to go 'you were wrong for 3 lynches' and they would be able to escape pressure.

[Smashbard]

So if I say maenara you'll unvote like a bitch, right?

[Smashbard]

Talking to Bulderscum of course.

[Smashbard]

I see you havent lost your butthurt over losing your anti town spam buddy. Honestly the only reason i'm ashamed of my mislynches is because they werent scum.

[Smashbard]

Mollie, Shinori and Enigma all deserved to die. Town isnt losing because we suck. Scum are winning because they are too town to be lynched and we cant catch them without a cop.

[Smashbard]

Thats what I mean Majiffy. Scum are skating by because by comparison to the policy lynch targets they are looking very town

[Smashbard]

TBM, Nobodies going to lynch Hiraki until you put some effort behind telling us why he's scum. Rat, you poor soul. The bullshittery only gets worse.

[Smashbard]

I really shouldn't bother posting while I'm at work when I only have a limited amount of characters to explain what I really want to say. I guess no matter how much I feel like giving up, the excitement of trying to find scum keeps me as active as I can possibly be.


That said, with Enigma coming up town that basically should guarantee that Maenara is scum. I was originally not going to join in on the festivities because of the possibility of a quickhammer, but honestly, I think a lot of us just want this game over with at this point. So if we are wrong and scum quickhammers for the win, good game scum. You fuckers.

Vote: Maenara

[Smashbard]

HOLD IT!

Unvote

[Smashbard]

If we are truly in Lylo, we need a Mass Claim. Town has no other choice if we hope to win. If one of you fuckers is a power role, it's time for you to come clean with who you've investigated, protected, blocked, followed or whatever else you've done during the night.

Look at it this way, if we continue to keep quiet and mislynch today, we lose. Period. If you have any information AT ALL in regards to who you've found to be town or scum, you need to come clean and share your information with the town.

I will consider any refusal to participate in this exercise an admittance of your membership of the scumteam.

If you're goals are protown, you NEED to assist with the Mass Claim, as we have no other chance. Even if you have investigated the past three night phases and gotten Innocent on three different investigative results, you need to help clear 3 members of town NOW.

[Smashbard]

Counter For Playerlist:
Format
Name: Claim


Numbers: Unclaimed

Buldermar: Unclaimed

Dividizzle: Unclaimed

Hiraki: Unclaimed

Maenara: Unclaimed

Majiffy: Claimed Mason

NJAC: Unclaimed

Pappums Rat: Unclaimed

Smashbard: Claimed Mason

Thebuttonmen: Unclaimed.

[Smashbard]

If nobody wants to step up and help town win, either by everyone claiming vanilla townie or by not claiming at all, we'll just lynch Maenara and say good bye, hoping to never have to participate in another game with each other again. lol.

[Smashbard]

Foreshadowing of results to come? lol. Honestly guys this is my last gambit. If I can't help us become brought together with this mass claim we're doomed. lol.

Numbers: Unclaimed

Buldermar: Unclaimed

Dividizzle: Unclaimed

Hiraki: Unclaimed

Maenara: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Majiffy: Claimed Mason

NJAC: Unclaimed

Pappums Rat: Unclaimed

Smashbard: Claimed Mason

Thebuttonmen: Unclaimed.

[Smashbard]

I'm just waiting on the inevitable One-Shot Venge-Vig Insane Miller Cop.

[Smashbard]

I'm almost just expecting everyone to fuck with me with fakeclaims but I figured I would try one last thing to get us on the right track and try to get us on the best comeback story in Mafia history. lol.

[Smashbard]

I'd like to say the same. As each time we've mislynched I've had this feeling of failure and disappointment in myself that becomes more obvious as you see my posts at the start of each new day phase. But as I said above, just when I start to think it's all over, there's no hope and I should just give up, I get a sudden surge of inspiration to try harder.

I think that's what happened to Elieson. He gave up after Shinori flipped town.

You're my Mason partner. Do you think it's worth the effort? Should I just put Maenara to L-1 and let scum hammer him for the win? Lord knows it doesn't matter how scummy he looks, he's probably going to flip town just like all the other obv scum.

[Smashbard]

Alright man. I was hoping for the Mass Claim gambit to work. But maybe it's better if we just end it. God knows I haven nobody elses opinion to trust.

I still hold people left in this game to the Mass Claim. If you're not hammering Maenara and ending the game I expect you to claim your role. (Speaking to everyone who sees this in the morning). Not that it matters, I fully expect the quickhammer to happen before I get off work tomorrow.

Vote: Maenara

[Smashbard]

Numbers: Unclaimed

Buldermar: Unclaimed

Dividizzle: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Hiraki: Unclaimed

Maenara: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Majiffy: Claimed Mason

NJAC: Unclaimed

Pappums Rat: Unclaimed

Smashbard: Claimed Mason

Thebuttonmen: Unclaimed.

[Smashbard]

10 Players Alive means 6 to lynch. If we mislynch and then another nightkill goes through, that's 8 alive, with 4 scum. Town has just as many members as scum at that point, so scum wins.

We're in lylo. We lynch scum or we lose. Period.

Numbers: Unclaimed

Buldermar: Unclaimed

Dividizzle: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Hiraki: Unclaimed

Maenara: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Majiffy: Claimed Mason

NJAC: Claimed Vanilla Townie

Pappums Rat: Unclaimed

Smashbard: Claimed Mason

Thebuttonmen: Unclaimed.

[Smashbard]

But you are right, a Mass Claim is just going to be pointless anyway because Scum are all going to claim Vanilla Townie to try and continue framing the Mason's with some bogus argument that there are no other power roles and the real power roles won't claim because they obviously have zero helpful information to give.

[Smashbard]

Well now that I am a confirmed Mason without a shadow of a doubt, which policy lynch are we going for today fellas? Dividizzle? NJAC? Papums Rat posthumously due to Juns previous actions?

Lords knows it's not going to be scum. There's been so many obvscum anti-town policy lynches that have failed to bring up any information that I wouldn't be surprised to see a TBM & Hiraki scumteam just because they both know they can fuck with the town at this point and just tunnel each other because the town's going to lynch ourselves into oblivion.

I'm ready to throw in the white towel and hand this one to scum. All of you are vanilla townies with no abilities and no clue who's the right lynch, so we've lost. I don't care who we lynch at this point. Just point a finger at whoevers the most attractive policy lynch for active lurking, fence sitting or any of the other "Scumtells" that have turned out not to be scumtells at all.

I'm just ready to move on to the next game.

[Smashbard]

I'm actually beginning to think there is no scum. There's probably just one serial killer. Just so this game can fuck with us and force us to drag this charade on more and more of lynching town and failing again and again like a social experiment testing Mafia players to see how much it takes for them to crack and just give up on a game. I don't care anymore. Scum, this would be a GREAT time for you to fakeclaim that you're the cop and just frame someone as scum already so we can end this and follow the cop to our deaths.

[Smashbard]

Although if I did give a damn I would probably lynch Buldermar at this point. Every single other strong protown player this game has been killed. Why not Buldermar? He was arguably #2 Town next to Qwintz Day 2. But Theo dies before him? Then they kill a claimed mason before Buldermar? I'm calling bullshit. Buldermar is scum.

Not that it matters anymore. His other scumbuddies will come to his defense saying how illogical my thought process is, and how much scummier (insert policy lynch here) is and how we shouldn't lynch him. So whatever. Do what you want. I'll sheep onto whatever wagon gains traction first.

[Smashbard]

I'm not lynching Hiraki til you say why we should. If you're not willing to explain yourself then stop suggesting the lynch.

[Smashbard]

Hey, TBM! If I say you need to elaborate on your Hiraki wagon it means that you ISO is insufficient reasoning and you need to give us some actual fucking reasons for voting him!

Yeah, we're lynching TBM today.

Vote: Thebuttonmen

If you have a guilty investigation on Hiraki you need to state it now. Otherwise just die.

[Smashbard]

I don't even feel TBM is more scummy than Buldermar to be honest. But I've already thrown in the towel at this point. *waits for three scum to quickhammer TBM so I can pretend this game never happened*

[Smashbard]

Nope. You're going to explain why we lynch these people or you're today's lynch. I'm not going to blindly follow you to the end game just because you say so. You are the one who actually has to do something to save your own skin.

[Smashbard]

Which I suggest you do that this point. Because even if scum is already on your wagon, there's still at least two scum left out there, leaving you at L-1. If Hiraki isn't one of the scum, then you risk him OMGUSing you just to shut you up and getting yourself lynched entirely.

I do have to thank you though. If you really are scum you are making it REALLY easy for us to lynch at least one of you before the end game.

[Smashbard]

You've been on every single mislynch I have been on except for Enigma so you can shut your mouth in regards to the validity of my reads you fucking hypocrite.

[Smashbard]

You even say TBM could be one of the three scum so dont act like you dont agree with me just because you've still got a stick up your ass because Enigmas dead. Fucking hypocrite.