NY 159: RUST game over

[Rob14]

VOTE: BloodCovenent

for epic failure to make proper use of BB codes.

[Rob14]

Unvote:
Vote: roflcopter

found scum.

Not sure if serious. Since sarcasm transmits very poorly over the Internet, I'll be going under the assumption that you are.

That's quite a bold statement. I seriously doubt an experienced player would attempt to bandwagon a player in RVS as scum, especially when they're only the third player out of a necessary nine to lynch. There's nothing to gain from such an endeavor and quite a bit to lose. I would expect experienced scum to avoid being any more than a second vote on a person during RVS to avoid bringing any needless attention to themselves.

[Rob14]

so you're saying we should be looking at all the players that either voted first, or did not put the third vote on someone?

That's bad logic. I'm saying that voting third in a large game is not a scumslip. I never suggested the alternatives are. Maybe this vote could be considered as part of a pattern of jumping on bandwagons in the future, if such a pattern ever develops, but jumping on someone as scum for voting in such a way that could never conceivably lead to a lynch is pointless at best, especially considering his experience means he would know that his actions would never lead to a lynch.

[Rob14]

Rob13's post is....?

P-edit: Quicklynches do happen. Its not THAT infrequent.

They do, but normally with some reason or explanation behind it. A bandwagon started on post 12 (considering the third vote as the beginning of the wagon) is unlikely to succeed.

[Rob14]

I like my vote exactly where it is. Let's take a look at BC's ISO.

Unvote:
Vote: roflcopter

found scum.

As I've said before, he grasps at an extremely small piece of "evidence" in order to make the extremely bold assertion that he's found scum after only ten posts by players. If he considered it a minor scumslip, it makes so much more sense at this stage to keep it to himself and wait to see if he can identify a pattern in roflcopter's voting. If he can identify a pattern of bandwagoning after he receives more evidence, then he would have a good case for roflscum. Instead, he winds up with a case that is extremely weak to non-existent. At this point, I don't think BC is scum, just dumb town.

Unvote:
Vote: roflcopter

found scum.

Not sure if serious. Since sarcasm transmits very poorly over the Internet, I'll be going under the assumption that you are.

That's quite a bold statement. I seriously doubt an experienced player would attempt to bandwagon a player in RVS as scum, especially when they're only the third player out of a necessary nine to lynch. There's nothing to gain from such an endeavor and quite a bit to lose. I would expect experienced scum to avoid being any more than a second vote on a person during RVS to avoid bringing any needless attention to themselves.

so you're saying we should be looking at all the players that either voted first, or did not put the third vote on someone?

When I point out what I had said above, he tries to put words in my mouth. He doesn't argue against me, attempt to prove me wrong, or offer an alternative position. He twists my words in an attempt to discredit me. This strikes me as scummy.

Wow. Miller claim already. Seems legit. BC=Obvtown.

if zab had simply said "miller claim. bc=obvtown" i would have thought nothing of this post. but no, its "wow," its "already," and it "seems legit," which makes zab "seem way too excited" to either already know who he doesn't have to nightkill, or be pushing his buddies millerclaim through to the town list (still too early to tell which, but we will kill you before too long too and find out, don't worry)

or you may have just outed the cop.

And he does it again. As rofl later posted, he never outed cop. If anything, BC did. He twists rofl's words. In addition to that, as town, there is no reason to make this post. If town-BC thinks that zab is cop, then you don't go out in the thread and say it. As scum-BC, he has two possible motivations to make this post. If zab is town, he makes this post to clue his partners into the fact that zab is a potential cop in order to ensure they make that kill if BC is lynched. If zab is scum, he makes this post to shift our read of zab towards town (or at least away from scum).

ebwop2:

and if that did actually "out the cop" its on you for saying that stupid shit out loud and not on me for saying something else entirely

(the actual argument which you ignored to spout your bullshit, which in this business we call a strawman)

oh bullshit. Any player could look at Zabriels post, and your reasoning behind it and deduce the same logic that I did. I had no read at all on Zabriel, but you immediately have a scum read based off his reaction to my claim, which might i add your reasoning for a scum read is shaky as hell.

And the bold above is just complete bullshit.

As for your questions in Post #26 i was mostly being sarcastic and trying to start the game. Sure, you weren't really sheeping. Everything before my #29 (side from my claim) was nonsensical, and i was trying to start conversation.

Seriously? Are you talking about the same scum-read that you previously defended against both rofl and me in ISO #2? If you were joking, then you could have said so far earlier, especially considering I pretty directly asked you if you were serious in your read or not. This seems like you're backing away from your "read" of rofl because you realize that no one is buying it.

Also, even if players could independently come up with a cop read from seeing rofl's post (I didn't, for the record), why make the leap for them? Other players aren't guaranteed to see everything you see or interpret it the same way. Town has no motivation to state suspicions that someone could be a cop in-thread. It can never benefit the town to reveal a cop.

I think that what's going on here is fairly obvious. BC makes a miller claim. Zab immediately backs up this claim to solidify BC as town. Two people move their votes to Zab, and BC immediately does a vote on the last person to vote for Zab. When rofl states that zab, BC, or me could all be lynch options for the day, BC leaps to zab's defense. BC claims that zab could be a cop in order to explain away a scumslip and try to push our perception of zab towards a town-read.

BC and Zab are scum-partners. They each have attempted to shift our perception of the other towards town and BC has defended Zab quite a bit. We lynch BC today, and if he's scum, we lynch Zab tomorrow.

[Rob14]

I was mostly commenting on how he was claiming miller in first post, and that's like one of two schools of thought on how to play Miller. But it was so to the letter it was just kind of funny. I also wasn't sure if it was a legit claim or not.

What's your thoughts on BC's actions so far?

[Rob14]

Rob, you have a few good points against BloodCovenant, except for one part. Wouldn't scum try to avoid each other more than make connections with each other? Do you really think that scum would make two connections back and forth to sacrifice the other scum-partner should one flip scum?

While this does not exonerate BC or Zabriel, I think it does make it not so fairly obvious as you say it is.

They weren't terribly obvious in their linking. Zab's support of BC's miller claim can easily be explained off by itself. He could say he simply believed no scum would draw attention to themselves so early, which is a valid conclusion (one that I initially reached before BC's other posts). BC can explain his action in voting for rofl as thinking he was bandwagoning if you look at it by itself. BC can also say he suggested zab may be the cop because of rofl's post, not because he was partnered with him.

When you examine each part of Zab and BC's actions by themselves, they don't lead to a conclusion of scum. You have to look at it as a pattern. The pattern is that they seem to be pointing to each other as town reads when there is no strong evidence of this.

Scum should try to avoid making connections to each other, but everyone makes mistakes. I would point to these as scumslips rather than town playing badly because each player started distancing themselves a bit from the other when they came under scrutiny. BC claimed that he had been joking when he accused rofl of sheeping Zab. Zab stated that he was actually very uncertain of BC's miller claim. Where'd their conviction go?

[Rob14]

Yeah, sure it looks like he's backing off since i took heat. He's attempting to distance himself from me.

If he's town and is getting a different read on you than us, he should contribute and argue against us. If he can lay down a clear case for you being town, then that's not scummy at all. That's good play. It's only scummy when he's claiming you're ObvTown when there's nothing to substantiate that. The only reason to distance is if he's scum. And there you go defending him again.

[Rob14]

EBWOP for the last sentence: And there you go defending him again without any legitimate reason or logic behind it.

[Rob14]

I've never played as Miller, but I would do exactly what you did as far as a claim. Even if it's a little bit suspicious, you save the cop an investigation. That's the best you can hope to do to help the town.

Your claim is not suspicious in and of itself. The case I made against you didn't even quote your claim. Town and scum both have reasons to claim miller, so I looked to the way you played for the rest of the thread to determine whether or not you were scum. The way you played was scummy.

[Rob14]

unvote, vote: zabriel

don't want to split the vote between two people i think are scum. we will get bloodcovenant tomorrow.

The order doesn't truthfully matter, as long as we get BC tomorrow. BC's actions implicated Zab as much as himself.

Unvote:
Vote: Zabriel

[Rob14]

EBWOP: Not to mention Zab's flip-flop on BC.

[Rob14]

why would Zabtown "distance" himself from someone he doesnt know is scum?

why would anything BC(you)town do "implicate" Zab?

these two terms are not sitting right with me.

waiting on an answer from Zab

also

unvote

By implicate, I meant that they're giving away each other by the way they're playing. They both heavily suggested the other was a strong town read without giving any solid or logically sound reasoning. This is odd in itself. Zab's flip-flop is also suspect - I don't buy the distancing argument by BC. BC also did some other scummy stuff that I detailed earlier in my look through his ISO.

It may have been a poor choice of words on my part, but I'm basically saying that if one is scum, there is strong reason to believe the other is also scum.

[Rob14]

why would Zabtown "distance" himself from someone he doesnt know is scum?

why would anything BC(you)town do "implicate" Zab?

these two terms are not sitting right with me.

waiting on an answer from Zab

also

unvote

By implicate, I meant that they're giving away each other by the way they're playing.

They both heavily suggested the other was a strong town read without giving any solid or logically sound reasoning

. This is odd in itself. Zab's flip-flop is also suspect - I don't buy the distancing argument by BC. BC also did some other scummy stuff that I detailed earlier in my look through his ISO.

It may have been a poor choice of words on my part, but I'm basically saying that if one is scum, there is strong reason to believe the other is also scum.

I never said, implied, or suggested that i had any read whatsoever on Zab.

You jumped on rofl for voting on Zab without even asking for his reasoning for doing so. You later stated that Zab could be a cop, a move town has literally no motivation to make. Presenting someone as a possible cop sounds like a town read to me.

[Rob14]

Unvote

I need some more time to look at the game BC linked where he was a miller. I have homework tonight, so please hold the lynch until mid-day tomorrow at least when I can analyze more thoroughly. A quick look shows that he claimed miller later than RVS and suspicion was thrown because of it. Knowing that, I would expect miller-BC to claim miller in first post in the future, which he did. I wouldn't expect him to claim miller as scum because claiming miller in the past hasn't worked for him. If it was a gambit, it was an extremely risky one. I suppose we knew this already, but his linked game shows that he would be fully aware of the risk. That deserves looking at. At the same time, I do want to note that BC played significantly differently in his linked miller game than he did this one (at least the bit that I read). He seems to more actively and logically scum-hunt in the linked game.

BC, please link your most recent finished scum and non-miller town games if you could.

[Rob14]

Unrelated thought @ BC: I'm trying to read through your last scum game, but it's striking me as too hilarious right now for me to look at objectively. I'll come back to doing this tomorrow.

[Rob14]

It wasn't hilarious as in bad play, it was just funny. You and Ether going back and forth had my roommates looking at me weird for laughing out of nowhere. I never got far enough in to evaluate quality of play.

[Rob14]

Rob13, you're not voting.

This is a problem

As I explained earlier, I want to check BC's past games before the day ends. Wanting to analyze all the available information before voting isn't a problem. At least not to town, anyway.

[Rob14]

I looked into BC's meta a bit and there are some things I'd like to watch more before deciding to lynch him. I just don't see how the miller claim would ever make any sense for him since he hasn't played it well in the past. He has no experience in pulling it off. On the other hand, it makes total sense for him to claim it early as town because when he didn't in the past it worked very poorly for him. Plus, he's just coming back to the game after a long time of being out of practice. Pulling off a gambit like this while he's still rusty as a player would be one hell of a ballsy move. This doesn't explain some of his other behavior and actions, but I'm just having trouble getting past how little sense his initial claim would make. I'm much more comfortable voting for Zab at this point. He's contributed nothing, he flip-flopped on the one read he gave with no reason, and he's generally been trying to float under the radar the entire time. I also think we gain the most info regarding other people by lynching Zab. If he flips scum, I have a few directions to go on Day 2.

Vote: Zab

[Rob14]

Gosh you are a ball of noise. You should bus DemonCore.

If BC flips scum then that makes you less scummy. Lol, are you implicating that BC and I are a team? Because I sure did an excellent job of getting any towncred out of that scenario!

VOTE: Curious Karma Dog

NM, bus yourself.

thank you, that wasnt so hard now was it.

or maybe it was, because I got that vote now didnt I...

Don't even try to claim that was a OMGUS vote. He's been consistently saying you seemed scum since he caught up with the thread. You're being over-aggressive and coming across very badly for it right now.

[Rob14]

Dear everyone not voting one of the claimed millers:

1) Link to game with two millers
2) A vote for BC or malp (preferably BC)

or STFU

FoS CKD and AP for obfuscating the point and cluttering the thread with stupid bullshit when we pretty much have a guaranteed scum sitting right in front of us.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3288013

I only see one (you).

Am I missing something?

There are two there. Peregine and FourseenCircumstance

[Rob14]

peregrine do you believe both miller claims?

Ah, I wish I had more typing time.

Let me start by saying that it seems that Miller adds power to the scum team.

Originally the game included a miller, but I was talked into dropping that for a VT.

So the existence of 2, if true, may mean a stronger town power to balance it.

I've seen 2 millers (unknown to the players) in a large theme, but not in a large normal to-date.

All that aside, I feel like the chances are fairly low. Which means at some point we have to look at the players who claimed miller and how they play.

That's the part that will have to wait.

[Rob14]

EBWOP: He already did.

[Rob14]

Zab, what are your reads so far? If you had the power to choose our lynch for the day right now, who would it be?

[Rob14]

Just throwing out my current list of reads and some notes. I've covered some with reasoning in the past, some reasoning comes from other people's analysis that I agree with, some hasn't been posted yet. Ask if you want clarification on where I put any players - it's way too late for me to type it all up in detail now. Order of names doesn't suggest anything, I just copied the "Alive" list.

zabriel - Scumish. Lynch result would give a lot of info about BC and a few others.
Cheery Dog - Null. I'd like to hear more from him.
BloodCovenent - Nullish to town. His play is scummy, but his gambit would make no sense based on his meta. How the people I'm fairly certain are scum are acting around him seem to suggest he's town. Worth watching, though.
curiouskarmadog - Scum, partner with DemonCore.
malpascp - Town
Darthe - Null
drmyshotgun - Showed up late, contributed very little of substance so far. Need more.
ProHawk - Town
roflcopter - Unsure, seems to be unwilling to consider other options for the Day 1 lynch. Null for now.
Demon Core - Scum, partner with ckd.
Josh Lyman - Who is this?
PMysterious - Hasn't posted.
PeregrineV - Null-town. Has polar opposite views than me and people so far (or so it seems), but he does seem to be attempting to find scum. Need more for a firmer read.
AngryPidgeon - Town
scooby - Needs to catch up still.
Tazaro - Null-scum. Has contributed literally nothing.

[Rob14]

Drmy, you told BC that him not trying to get the other miler claim lynched is a towntell. How is my trying not to get the miller claims lynched a scum-tell? Comments on ANYTHING other than miller claims? And no, we aren't Pling PM just cuz.

Rob pretty much has the exact same reads as me >.>, although I dont quite remember what he said about rofl. I think rofl is null-town

I hadn't even looked at ckd/demoncore before you said they were playing scummy, but I went back and looked at their ISO. DemonCore is not town at all. There's no way. By the way they've played, DemonCore being scum suggests to me that ckd is scum. Plus ckd keeps posting stupid shit.

Mal, your last post sits very, very badly with me.

[Rob14]

I hate you all. I just ISO'd drmy in an attempt to get him to stop tunneling. It was seriously like 2+ pages long in Word. Meanwhile, he stops tunneling, making my entire post irrelevant. I'm going to write like 5 lines to replace it (MAX) and then go take a nap.

Unvote
Vote: DemonCore

He's scum. Look at his ISO #6 (wasn't voting during that period due to needing to look at BC's meta, which I specifically stated in-thread).

ISO #9 asks for a quick-lynch based on only a miller claim without looking at gameplay. States he prefers BC to lynch, but doesn't really care which. That's scummy as hell. Town would care about picking the right one if they wanted to lynch one based on the idea that two millers is impossible. Demon clearly doesn't.

When he was shown that two millers can exist (therefore destroying his argument or quick-lynch), he backtracks in ISO #11 and then disappears. Seems likely that he realized he just drew some attention to himself with the disproved logic behind hid quick-lynch attempt and tried to hide for a bit so people wouldn't look into his posts much.

P-edit: Stop posting so I can submit this and take my nap!

[Rob14]

Still has to die at some point.

I can somewhat agree to this if it gets to LyLo. If we don't have a clear scum choice with an estimated 1-2 scum left, and only 5 people still in the game (including BC), then we go with the miller because they can't be cop-confirmed. For now, though, we should look elsewhere (unless, of course, gameplay suggests that they're scum).

[Rob14]

curiouskarmadog replaces Ansar.

Darthe and Pine have 24 hours to respond before being replaced.

It is now Day 1.

Deadline: (expired on 2012-10-23 15:08:03)

never got a role pm

Ansar, that's the kind of thing you take to PM.

The basic idea behind miller claims is that they save a cop investigation. I don't mind keeping BC around, he seems sincere enough. Malp is a little bit meh, but I still want to give him a chance to post a little bit more.

Zab, thoughts on DemonCore?

[Rob14]

BITCHES

If I flip town, then it means that BC claimed miller when another one existed, and I think it would be too much of a coincidence for scum to claim exactly that when another miller existed. Not that hard to understand. In my point of view, BC is confirmed town.

Wait...what? You're claiming that if two people claim miller and one is town then the other must be town? By that logic, if two people claim doc and one is doc, then both are doc.

I don't agree with your logic and am really questioning your motives for claiming this.

[Rob14]

At this point, I think Mal is a jester. I realize this is not possible because we are in a normal game. It still manages to be the most likely option based on how he's playing.

[Rob14]

If AP is scum, he's bussing very, very hard. He was the first to draw real attention to Demon and CKD, and they are both, at best, likely scum (with Demon being a clear ObvScum imo). I don't see that making sense if he's scum. If Demon or CKD flip town, then I would re-ISO AP.

As far as the drmy thing, drmy was playing anti-town for quite a while there. It was fairly obvious (at least I thought). I don't agree that he's scum, but I can see how someone could make that leap. I don't think explanation was really needed all that much.

[Rob14]

There is still a point that he may have fakeclaimed miller without knowing there was an actual miller in the game and also you hadn't read the thread, meaning you fakeclaiming it there would also have no knowledge another miller existed.
Neither of you are cleared at the present time and neither of you will be cleared when/if the other flips.

This would be true if I as scum was stupid enough to fakeclaim miller without reading the thread. I'll reread so we can disscuss stuff that really matters.

WIFOM alert!

[Rob14]

i think malpascp = a town person.

Rationale please.

[Rob14]

This needs like way more votes

Want to hear Darthe respond before considering voting for him, but for the time being:

You...are attempting to sway us with the subconscious reasoning of free association.

LOL

Also, he consistently argues against CKD, never Zab, but his vote has been on Zab the entire time. Which leads me to think...

[Rob14]

Hi there. Hungover.
Claim: miller.

will read later today, and I guess RVS is already over.

I believe that effectively invalidates what you've stated. If he didn't read the thread, his potential motivations for claiming miller are identical to those if just one miller claims. No "WIFOM-neutralization" as you put it.

As far as your theory of "WIFOM-neutralization", that's WIFOM in itself. Two millers claiming in-thread creates the same issues as if one miller claims in-thread. You can argue two are unlikely so if one is town the other is scum and vice versa, but that is not 100% true. There have been games with two millers. If we take that line of thought, we could end up two days in with two mislynches and four town dead (assuming only one night-kill each night) The potential disadvantages of taking a gamble based only on their claims and mislynching both far outweighs any advantages. We have to evaluate play, not strictly claims.

Your posts are weird. You say malpa-scum is not likely to be scum at all because of your "WIFOM-neutralization" nonsense, but then you say we should lynch him over BC if we go with a miller. Wait, what? That makes little sense. Lynching someone you think is likely town to gain info about someone you think is null or scum doesn't make sense. Just lynch the null-scum.

[Rob14]

Hey, taking a page out of rofl's playbook is my play not yours!

But seriously, are you scum?

Guarantee you I am. Now ISO CKD/Dcore together and tell me that isn't the obvious team.

Derp, well that was guarantee you I am [town]. Weee, incoming Freudian slip cases.

That's the context to the last two posts in that ISO. He attempted to turn a typo into a case. Check AP's ISO for why he thinks that's super-scummy. It was in there somewhere.

[Rob14]

That was directed at mal's post, by the way. Forgot to quote him.

[Rob14]

Plus he's yet to acknowledge my point that mal didn't see the first miller claim before claiming, because he knows his theory doesn't stand up to that.

[Rob14]

This needs like way more votes

Remind me again what was pingy in there? Perhaps I am mistaken but all of your plays at me so far have essentially been a reply to my asking about your scummy arse slip earlier. Still not seein' what you're trying to get at here.

Btw, weaksauce sheep vote from BC (etc) is why he can't sell his credibility for a nickle to his own family.

It wasn't a slip. It was undeniably a typo. The fact that you jumped on it was scummy. I mean seriously - look at what you're saying. You're trying to claim that someone made a scumslip by literally typing out that they were scum. Isn't is 10000000000 times more likely that he forgot a word?

If you're arguing that he subconsciously forgot the word because he's scum, well, I don't think I need to argue against that. The silliness stands for itself.

[Rob14]

EBWOP: is --> it in my rhetorical question

Oh no! I made a typo! Must be scum!

[Rob14]

I'm not seeing why Darthe needs more votes, calling someone out for flailing means they are scummy how?

It's not so much the flailing as it was the post before it. He tried to claim AP admitted to being scum when it was a clear typo.

I think it's suspect, but there are better places to put a vote today. DemonCore needs more votes for sure. Look at his ISO and tell me that's not ObvScum.

[Rob14]

I've fairly sure I did the exact same thing when I voted malp, although malp never fixed what he had said, so I'm just wondering, does that also make me suspect?

Can you quote the posts? If you did, I don't see it from your ISO.

[Rob14]

I suppose the coincidence does make malpascp more likely to be a scum who is fakeclaiming miller after BloodCovenant's claim.

No, it doesn't. Assuming mal was truthful about not reading the thread, then they were two independent events. It's like flipping a coin. If you flip the coin once and land on heads, you still have a 50/50 chance of landing on both heads or tails the next time. The firsts event is independent of the second event. The WIFOM involved in trying to figure out the motivations of any miller claim applies equally to both. This is, of course, assuming that mal wasn't lying about not reading the thread.

If mal was untruthful about not reading the thread, then he's scum and an idiot. He would have immense pressure on him if BC flipped town miller, and BC had the most pressure on him when mal claimed, making him (at the time) the most likely lynch candidate. That would be the dumbest scum move ever - guaranteeing you pressure on Day 2 for no gain.

I really can't explain this any other way, so I'm going to ignore any future attempt at WIFOM discussion on these miller claims. It's a waste of time.

[Rob14]

Cool, we should vote DemonCore, CKD or Darthe then.

DemonCore is the extremely obvious option. His ISO speaks for itself.

[Rob14]

Also: Anyone thinking PMysterious is being pro-Town and will do us good if he (she?) survives longer, I dare you to say it out loud.

I don't think he's pro-town or anti-town. He's done nothing in-game. He'll probably be replaced. Stop your anti-PMysterious nonsense. We get that you don't like him as a player. If he prod-dodges and remains a lurker, then I'll consider lynching him. If he gets replaced, we might find that we have someone that is pro-town and a benefit to the town. He's clearly not our best Day 1 lynch target.

Mal is legitimately scummy, but my vote stays on Demon for the day. Unless someone does something new that is unbearably scummy or provides amazing new insights in a new case, then he's our best option for the day. Mal is worth looking at in Day 2.

[Rob14]

It is not a policy lynch. Malpascp is legitimately scummy. Kill it with fire.

Agree, I think.

Let me finish ISOs?

Top of my head I'd like to lynch Darthe, DemonCore, CKD, Malp, Zabriel. In roughly that order. Prohawk I need to reread. I do think I'll be able to read him more accurately than I do almost all other peeps.

Did you forget about me or something here. I thought I was like Conf-Scum to you? No more?

Mal is legitimately scummy, but my vote stays on Demon for the day. Unless someone does something new that is unbearably scummy or provides amazing new insights in a new case, then he's our best option for the day. Mal is worth looking at in Day 2.

Why the wait? What advantage does it give us to leave a WIFOM lying around when we can take care of it now? Is Malpa precious asset to Town or something.
Well I agree that Demon is pretty useless and I also acknowledge people's cases on him.
But I'd much rather cut the crap coming from Malpascp and Tazaro by double combo.

I'd rather lynch obvscum than a WIFOM. -1 Scum is greater than -1 WIFOM

[Rob14]

We're 5 days into the game, which is less that halfway through this phase, why are you so eager to to finish the day?
and why do you want a pile of dead bodies?

I actually agree with him on this one. We've gleaned just about as much as we can from Day 1. Look at the past few pages. We've been arguing and rearguing a lot of the same points with very little change in opinion. The miller argument is an ongoing WIFOM waste of time, for example. We'll get way more info from a lynch result than we ever will from the rest of this day.

[Rob14]

Drmy, could you link to your last town game and last scum game? I want to check your meta since your posting style is a bit out of the ordinary. I'm assuming it's your normal town style and just different than what I'm used to hearing, but it's good to cover all my bases.

[Rob14]

Drmy, could you link to your last town game and last scum game? I want to check your meta since your posting style is a bit out of the ordinary. I'm assuming it's your normal town style and just different than what I'm used to hearing, but it's good to cover all my bases.

Don't you think I'm a fun player to be in a game with?

Don't have to answer if negative.

You make things interesting. Interpret that as you will.

[Rob14]

Also, I read some posts in a town game and a scum game of drmy. This is his normal playstyle. Here's the highlight reel, for those that may find it amusing. No, I will not provide context. It's better that way.

VOTE: Near
Die.

I'm serious, you obnoxious twat.

And don't tell me to re-read again. It's tedious and fucking bore with all the crap you littered all over the game.

There are more like that, but I don't want to post a wall of drmy's playstyle for no reason. I found these three particularly amusing.

[Rob14]

COUNTER. WAGON.

CONTRIBUTE. SOMETHING.

[Rob14]

F.O.S. Darthe

Reason? This is like pulling teeth, I swear.

[Rob14]

you know what, i don't actually need to read what i missed to see whats happening here.

Yes, you do.

FOS roflcopter

Skimming is not in any way pro-town.

[Rob14]

If you don't read, you can't see scumslips. If you can't see scumslips, you can't contribute to town. Ergo, using your current playstyle, you cannot contribute to town.

[Rob14]

I have to wonder how many scum are in this game. I have scum reads on quite a few. There probably isn't much point in speculating because we don't know how the balance works out, but what is normal for this size of a game?

[Rob14]

Something got fucked with #432

You talk too fucking much. Put your shit together and stop filling the board with useless clutter.

You just made my scum list. I had been delaying for a while since we still have better options (and lots of them), but that was just...wow.

[Rob14]

Which, for the record, makes my scum reads:

Demon
CKD
Darthe
Zab
Mal

In no particular order.

[Rob14]

Forgot in my prior list, Tazaro is like half-way on it.

[Rob14]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Demon Core

back to this vote, it has a much better chance than drmy for flipping scum.

I'm not seeing CKD as scum but the rest of Rob's list looks quite possible to me.

Look at DC and CKD together, including voting history. It's a package deal. If DC somehow flips town (I don't see that ever happening, but as a hypothetical), then I think CKD is town.

[Rob14]

@drmy and Rob, any consensus as to when you two want the day to end?

Not sure on drmy, but my answer would be as fast as we can lynch DC. Once he's confirmed for sure as scum, then we can look at his interactions with other people, other people's interactions with him, etc. It will give us a lot more information than we will ever get from this day dragging on further, especially since a lot of the players I consider scummy have been posting infrequently, giving us very little info.

[Rob14]

DemonCore is such ObvScum it hurts. His last post is obviously a fakeclaim. The fact that he posted in other games during his period of inactivity in this one makes me think it's extremely likely he tried to lurk because we weren't effectively pressuring him. As soon as he did, he was in here claiming cop. The reactions to the wagon and claim are highly interesting and exactly why we needed this wagon. BC, you're on my scumdar again.

Now let's hammer.

P-edit: DemonCore, if you have something useful to say, say it now. Convince us of why you should be left alive. Until you post something useful, then my vote stays on you (as should everyone else's).

[Rob14]

EBWODP:

"As soon as *we* did" in the fourth sentence.

[Rob14]

If we have a vig, vig Darthe.

vetoed

if there is a vig, vig one of the miller claims (preferably bc but really they've both got to go) or risk being consumed with a righteous fury

I would suggest zabriel.

I'd rather a cop investigate zab, if one exists (and no, DC is not a cop). Then we can lynch accordingly if we need to. If there's a vig, it needs to be used on miller claims because investigations can't target them.

[Rob14]

really tazaro, demon core snarks at you so you take your vote off of him? for shame

This is more or less what I was thinking. DC has managed to continuously top himself for coming off as scummy as possible, and his last post was no exception. Instead of dismissing or explaining the point made against him, he bolded some words, pretty much admitted he deliberately ignored this game over others, and then went on his merry way. This somehow makes him less scummy enough so that Tazaro is going to switch votes? No it doesn't, you dolt, it makes him even worse.

Why is this day still going on? It's really confusing me.

P-Edit: This wagon is not some blind rampage against you, DC. Don't even try to pull that crap. Everything you have ever said in this thread sounds scummy. Your ISO literally speaks for itself. All the points that needed to be made were made by me a long time ago, but ignored for a while until I started referencing them repeatedly in order to bring more attention to you. Once people actually looked at the case I built against you, it was fairly obvious you were scummy as hell. Every new post you make sounds worse and worse, reinforcing town's perceptions about you. You must be pretty worried about the reactions of your scum-mates, though, since they've been very telling.

tl;dr for the p-edit: Shut up, crime. (deal with the blatant plagiarism, drmy)

[Rob14]

I don't want one. The claim, while semi-suspect, gives him a day or two IMO. No sense in trying to speed lynch someone who has that claim though.

If we leave him alive, this is what will happen.

He'll come back with a "guilty" on Day 2. It will be on someone who is a moderate-strong town read.

One of three things will happen.

1: No one believes him and he's lynched. If we aren't going to believe him, though, we might as well lynch him now.

2: He's identified an actual scum. We lynch the scum. A sizable amount of people view DC as confirmed cop when in reality he's scum that just gave up another scum in order to coast to LyLo. Scum wins a huge advantage because our confirmed cop is actually scum.

3: He's identified a town member. We lynch the town member. This confirms DC-Scum, but now we've wasted a lynch on a strong town read, making scum's job a lot easier. We also won't learn all that much from it because the lynch of the town member and the subsequent lynch of DC would most likely be quick, leaving little time for scum to slip up and show themselves.

I'm throwing this prediction on the table now, and I think it will hold true in Day 2 if he is still alive. I really hope he isn't.

[Rob14]

For #1: Why let him dominate discussion for another day or live to potentially use detrimental night actions if he's ObvScum?

For #2: You assume we have a cop, that there is only one cop, and that it is beneficial for him to reveal. All could be false.

For #3: Wrong, wrong, wrong. Each day equals more than one kill. Every day that we don't lynch scum, we lose multiple lives. One from the false lynch, one (or even more!) from night kills. Allowing multiple town to be killed from a scum gambit that shouldn't even be allowed to occur is a stupid idea, to be blunt. Why have multiple dead town when we could have one dead scum in the first place?

P-edit: There is always a chance that a claimed person is not lying. All we can do is go by the evidence we have and their posting history. Everything points to DC being scum.

[Rob14]

So you're saying that right now, anyone in this game could claim cop and would be immune from the Day 1 lynch? Cop claims are common from scum because they have exactly this effect...

[Rob14]

We're at L-1 now. Tazaro unvoted then revoted.

[Rob14]

I know that fuckfaces...my vote was already on him....god dammit.

same goes to you Rob...why was it protown to point this out?

We're at L-2, then.

Thought it was an honest mistake at first, not a gambit, but I wasn't going to point it out at first because DC could have revealed. Then Random McFuckFace showed up, so I thought the whole operation was kind of blown wide open anyway. There was no longer any reason to not point out the mistake (which I thought it was).

Seriously though, who are you njoseph and why did you just give away a gambit in a game you're not in? Where's the banhammer again?

[Rob14]

Not Voting (5) - malpascp, Josh Lyman, PMysterious, scooby, DemonCore

It's about time you all place votes, don't you think?

[Rob14]

I need to stop neglecting this game.

I just ran over DC's iso, and he does take on kind of a different tone than I'm used to from him. I don't think I've played a scum game with him before, but I notice that he seems less abrasive than he does when he's town. I think he's trying to play it off as cop laying low, but I think there is a good chance that he's fakeclaiming here. We do still have some time though. Isgthere anything we want to get done before the night?

Personally, not from me. I think we've accomplished most of what we can for the day. The only thing potentially left is analyzing reactions to the wagon on DC, but that's best done once we know DC's alignment for certain (it will be scum).

[Rob14]

In case I die at night because I hit pay-dirt (doc-protect please and thanks), I'm going to quickly post my observations that happened during the wagon assuming that DC flips scum.

ProHawk: Unsure if scum based on response. Was quick to try to lend credibility to the obvious fake-claim. Definitely worth looking.
Darthe: Scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, scum, ad infinitis (random note: Latin is a bitch to learn, it's kicking my ass in college right now)
Tazaro: potential scum, check his posts during the wagon. He flipflopped around 12 times and seemed extremely reluctant to finish off DC despite previous convictions

[Rob14]

EBWOP: FML, I screwed up the Latin. And here I was trying to be all smart-sounding.

Corrected: ad infinita

[Rob14]

Perhaps people will lynch me tonight for this. Or maybe the mafia will kill me tonight to create WIFOM (would be a dumb mafia). Personally I found it hillarious that angrypidgeon was able to fuss enough that people didn't vote him and believed him calling me scummy and then Dcore comes back and says something that is most likely not a scum slip and his train built for it. I bet money he is town and when he flips it we all can analyze the train for easy votes. L-1 is weak shit where I come from and basically is day over anyhow. What is the point in waiting on it or adding stupid reasons?


Also, since I have never had night here I have to ask: Do you guys continue playing and casing at night? Because we always have.

You cannot post in the thread at all during night. You send your night actions to the mod and once the next day starts, you can continue casing and the like.

[Rob14]

But hey, you can post in your QT

You're growing on me.

[Rob14]

Also, cop target of ProHawk will grant us the most useful information, I think. Alternatively, zab.

[Rob14]

I agree on the vig target, but if there is a one-shot vig, they should hold their shot for another day at least to get more info on the millers.

[Rob14]

Scum Zab does not surprise me at all. Scum Zab killed at night does. Next logical question is vig or SK? We could easily have an SK who wants to off the mafia to prevent themselves from being killed or a vig looking out for town.

Vote: Darthe

ISO #14: Pushing for a CC before a lynch of ObvScum-DC.

ISO #19: Does an about-face to bus DC.

ISO #20: LOL

P-edit: In response to AP,

#1: Darthe (obviously, I just voted for him - see above case)

#2: Malpa - very little to no content, trying to make weird claims about what one claimed miller's flip would mean about the other and ISO #14 strikes me as really bad because he pretty much comes right out and says he'll scumhunt when he damn well pleases and feels no pressure to contribute in the meantime. That's not pro-town.

#3: CKD - his end of Day 1 was good, but it could also be scum trying to get his partner to give up info in an attempt to look really, really townish. His early interactions with DC bother me quite a bit, especially now the DC is confirmed scum. I'll build a case on CKD in a future day. He is not the lynch for today unless he does something else.

[Rob14]

Third party? Is zabriel DC's partner? We have a vig AND mafia kill was blocked/protected? We have to reach some agreement on how this NK happened so we can analyze Day 1.

P-Edit: If a vig shot Zab, then our doc/RB got it right on N1? Is any of these roles "claimable" right now?

I changed my mind.

Unvote
Vote: Mal

You're scum. You're trying to lead us down a useless conversation about whether a vig or SK killed Zab on N1. This is a pointless discussion. I realize I posed the question in my last post - that was a hook to see who bit. Surprise, one of my top scum reads did. In reality, unless there is a claim, there is no way to know if we have a vig or SK on our hands and there is no point in trying to determine which. It just distracts from hunting scum, so someone who attempts such a conversation is likely to be scum attempting to create useless discussion. In addition to this, you tried to fish for a claim of a doctor or RB. Seriously? That's funny shit, right there.

[Rob14]

Eh, if the vig is 1 or 2 shot then I dont see a reason why not to claim it.

Mafia Roleblocker if it's 2-shot. No reason not to claim if it's 1-shot, I suppose, but there's no reason for a doctor to claim ever. Even suggesting that is scummy to the extreme.

[Rob14]

Need to re-read zabriel back later.

Relevant viewing material

Also, welcome to the game, good sir. Why should we believe you aren't scum?

[Rob14]

@Mod - Could you please update the "Alive" list to reflect who Paid Pyro replaced? Thanks.

[Rob14]

Hi all.

Catch up post. Based on my read

AP, Rob13,

BC

= town.

Pere

and rolf lean town
Everone here....

KMD

leans scum.
Darthe,

dermy, prohawk

= scum

Vote: Prohawk

Need to re-read zabriel back later.

I'd like to see reasons for the

bolded and large

reads when you have time. Drmy and ProHawk are the most urgent to see reasons for, though.

[Rob14]

Basically, if there is a town roleblocker or Jailkeeper and they targeted someone scummy last night, then they need to claim in their next post.

If there is a X-shot vig, they should claim. Reasons for this:
1. So I can be at peace about it being a possible SK (unlikely that is is, but still would be nice to have someone claim vig)
2. Unlikely (although possible) that an RB exists given the Doc flip.

Hi Pyro. Drmyshotgun is so obvtown >.>
But other than that I mostly agree.

Prohawk votes could still be a wonderful thing.

Fine, I accept your idea regarding lack of roleblocker.

I am Jack-of-all-Trades. One-shot cop, one-shot vig. One-shot cop is used already on Tazaro, clearing him. One-shot vig will be used tonight to prevent me dying without using it. Because of my role, I doubt there is another vig. I don't see how it would balance. I think an SK is likely.

[Rob14]

Eh, I could live with a BC lynch too. He's scummy enough. His mid-end of day was null-town, but his start was scummy as all get out. I need to look more at zab/DC's posting about him. Give me a day or so and I'll eventually get around to it.

P-edit: My claim really doesn't have a draw-back if we can reasonably assume that there is no roleblocker and it does prevent useless discussion about Taz, which I think would eventually come up. Taz has played very badly so far for town. If I didn't have an innocent verdict on him, he would be in my top 2 of scum reads.

P-edit v2: Claim or don't Taz. Don't be a tease. Also, if you're a PR, then you just lost all power because you drew scum to you.

[Rob14]

For now, I'll say this.

I watched zabriel.

I literally love you right now.

Now give us info before someone day-kills you (is that even allowed in normal?)

[Rob14]

not that we necessarily have a full cop in this setup with rob already a 1-shot cop, but still we should figure out a way to not be outing a town power role

Give out one name, the one that is on the list of scum reads that most people have (i.e. my list). We lynch them. If they're town, we lynch the other the next day. Hopefully, we get it right the first time. This is all on you Tazaro. Pick the one you think is most likely to be scum based on everything posted so far. If you get it wrong, I'll shake my fist angrily at you.

[Rob14]

Also, doc, if we lynch town today based on Tazaro's time, for the love of all that is holy you need to PROTECT TAZARO. Otherwise, we lose our SK. Again, PROTECT TAZARO if we don't get the SK today.

[Rob14]

jesus christ

if mal gets lynched and flips miller please rob tell me you will shoot bc

I will not confirm or talk about, at all, who I am going to be targeting tonight. That's info scum doesn't need to know in case they have a mafia roleblocker or what-have-you that could potentially interfere with my vig kill. I will target someone from my scum reads list or the millers, which represents a large list.

[Rob14]

P-pedit: Apparently so. I claim Village Idiot.

Well, are we or are we not?

We are NOT. I claimed because it provides helpful info on Taz's credibility (which turned out to be hugely important) and Taz claimed for obvious reasons.

Again, we are NOT mass-claiming. Do not claim if you do not have useful info.

[Rob14]

We might as well massclaim?

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO

This is a bad idea.

[Rob14]

No Taz, do your shit. Veto this CKD claim. I am captain obvtown, my authority is good around these parts.

If we're going to nominate a Captain ObvTown, then it's definitely me. Having said that, I agree. Taz, give your name. CKD is on our shit list. If he's one of your names (and I'm thinking he is), then we should lynch him.

[Rob14]

If we're going to nominate a Captain ObvTown, then it's definitely me.

I was joking. But, yes.

I don't see how CKD would show up on the Zab list. And if he did, then hes claiming to have tracked him which means we can verify this claim by lynching the shit out of whoever Zab was tracked to.

I was also joking. Having thought about it more, I realize that I should now slap myself across the face for thinking CKD is a possible SK because his interaction with DC would make no sense then. If he's anti-town, then he's on the mafia team. Disregard my last post.

[Rob14]

Oh. I kind of see where the 1x claim idea is coming from. But with all the 1x claims, either everyone in the game is a JoaT or Zab was SK'd

No one else do this, but AP, if you are JOAT, please claim. This does not need any info at all about your abilities, just the fact that you are a JOAT. This would probably mean another 1-shot vig and no SK, because two 1-shot vigs can balance relatively easy.

[Rob14]

Haha, this is why AngryPidgeon is the best!
Anyways, yes Darthe Baby, you need a rope on you. But I say scummy "Miller" dies first.

That's what vig is for.

Unvote, vote Darthe

[Rob14]

Hello everyone, this seems to have been a good night. I am glad to have my suspicions of Zab confirmed and have to agree that an SK seems more likely than a Vig to me at this point. For now,

vote BC

in the interest of competing trains.

Here is why this is scummy:

First of all, Darthe is clearly new. And this post has 2 awesome scumtells in it that new players tend to commit.

1. Talking about how well the night went.
2. Assuming that Zabriel died to an SK and not vig. I mean come on you had Zabriel as a suspect and so did several people, so why is a vig unlikely??

Also, that Blood Covenent vote's justification is "competing trains". What. We are like a few hours into D2, why place such a forced vote.

Can you explain why #2 is a tell? I don't see it.

[Rob14]

New scum players like to accuse people of being SKs instead of scum. I'm kind of stretching it a little to fit this, but seriously:

How is he so sure its not a Vig when several people suspected Zabriel? It was a 100% legit vig shot.

While I haven't played on this site and therefore am not aware of what the typical trends are here, I disagree that this is a scumtell. I think new town is just as likely not to realize likely vig targets and assume that people dying are a result of anti-town elements as new scum is to try to push for the idea of an SK.

Darthe is still scum in my books, but not because of this.

[Rob14]

but then again I just looked back at the votecounts, I do have to wonder why he would have been bussing two of his partners during day 1. (zab all day and then DC with the hammer for

information

)

The hammer could easily be a bus. Zab all day is a bit trickier, but it's possible to be bussing. That's not what I would expect from a newer scum player, though.

SK, maybe? Would explain some stuff.

[Rob14]

Whichever wagon that stacks up quicker would be the lynch.
I don't see anyone else getting lynched except for: Darthe, BloodCOvenent and Malpascp, today, right? happy

That's my short-list. I would prefer a Mal lynch over a BC lynch.

[Rob14]

I didn't say they were related, I guess I just responded in the wrong order.
I was originally just going to post that I didn't feel the game was slow (though the other game you've mentioned would be very fast), but then rofl ninja'd me, and I thought I can give thoughts on that part of your post as well so that it's more ontopic.

I'm still good with lynching one of the

millers

today, or do they need investigated by a gunsmith power if we have one?

If we had a gunsmith and they didn't already investigate them, then we have an idiot on our hands. Since no one has claimed with that yet, especially considering we had a near-massclaim going on, I doubt we have a gunsmith.

[Rob14]

Watch your trains kid, nothing like good old vote analysis. And with two scum revealed I just bet I can find a few more in the patterns.

I hope youre ready to make a "holy shit AP busses the shit out his buddies" case on me.

Ya, you go do that.

You realize you would have to do the same on me right? I was on Zab all day and in the end switched to DC...

That's why you make sense as SK, not mafia.

[Rob14]

Explain your ISO #19 and #20 if you can, Darthe.

[Rob14]

Fuuuuuuck. Too many claims. We need to hear the full thing from Tazaro. As far as I can see, all this JoaT claims are way too convenient, scum could easily do this gambit. Also, finding who killed zabriel is top priority. We have 2 claimed vig-shots, I guess there are no more town NK roles. It would be nice if Taz just cut the crap and told us everything. And that applies to everyone. Screw mafia having information, they are going to have it anyway, and if we get the SK (pretty sure there is one by now), then I doubt we won't win this game.
Will have limited access until Wednesday.

Die, crime.

I am becoming drmy. This is...unfortunate.

[Rob14]

Is my vote on Darthe right now? Eh, I don't even know.

Unvote
Vote: Darthe

It is now.

[Rob14]

Is my vote on Darthe right now? Eh, I don't even know.

Unvote
Vote: Darthe

It is now.

How long ago was Post 717.

I wasn't sure if it was on mal or Darthe. I voted both of them at some point this day, and they are both good targets. Darthe is obviously better now if he targeted zab.

Thanks for targeting zab, though, Darthe! Your one night action eliminated two anti-town players, zab and you!

[Rob14]

We're at L-4 with the following voting:

AP
Rob
Taz
Cheery

Quicklynch! GO! GO! GO! GO! GO!

[Rob14]

very well

unvote, vote: darthe[/b[

please, rob, please kill a miller. i don't care which we can lynch the other one tomorrow.

Fix your BB tags so your vote is definitely counted.

Also, Taz, we have good targets for Night Vig and good targets to look at tomorrow. We're good for today. Let's get rid of the SK.

[Rob14]

Why are we trying to fast wagon? I'm doing my isos right now and I'm making progress. Fast lynches cost us discussion and hence info. I've done a darthe iso and I'm not against his lynch, but I'd like to have everyone done before I throw my vote in.

People who are trying to fast wagon look suspicious, but it confuses me that rob is all GOGOGO because I had a town read on him as I skimmed the thread. Yet to do an iso on him though.

Still got lots to do, will hopefully have my isos done and reads posted later today.

Darthe's ISO is scummy and we have a confirmed-town tracker stating that he is one of two options on who killed Zab. SK seems likely based on balance and the roles that have already been claimed.

[Rob14]

Why lynch bloodcovenant and not vig him?

This is exactly my thoughts.

[Rob14]

So we have Darthe claiming VT and Taz claiming that he saw Darthe performing an action.

One of them is lying. Taz is confirmed town with an investigation, but I suppose there could have been a scum busdriver that fucked with my investigation of Taz. It's a long-shot, though.

If we lynch Darthe and he's VT, then we lynch Taz, plain and simple. It would mean Taz is undoubtedly lying about Darthe targeting somebody. So if we lynch Darthe, we undoubtedly find at least one anti-town person as a result. So as I see it...

[Rob14]

So we have Darthe claiming VT and Taz claiming that he saw Darthe performing an action.

One of them is lying. Taz is confirmed town with an investigation, but I suppose there could have been a scum busdriver that fucked with my investigation of Taz. It's a long-shot, though.

If we lynch Darthe and he's VT, then we lynch Taz, plain and simple. It would mean Taz is undoubtedly lying about Darthe targeting somebody. So if we lynch Darthe, we undoubtedly find at least one anti-town person as a result. So as I see it...

Bus-driver is not normal. Hence it cannot be in a normal game.

Oh, didn't know that. Curse my lack of experience on this website!

Therefore, Darthe is just scum, plain and simple.

[Rob14]

If we have a vig, vig Darthe.

vetoed

if there is a vig, vig one of the miller claims (preferably bc but really they've both got to go) or risk being consumed with a righteous fury

I would suggest zabriel.

I will now say this: There is a reason why the person I suggested died.

Are you saying you vig'd zab? If so, how did you also watch them? Please talk straight.

[Rob14]

Where's the guarantee of Vig? As far as I'm concerned, s/he should have "vigged" a "miller" Night 1. That's how Miller should play.
Would lynch Darthe anyday, but why people are keep telling me to rely on Vigs to NK the "millers" is confusing. I want both millers gone for good.

One of my JOAT abilities is one-shot vig. It will be used Night 2.

[Rob14]

That is awesome I think.
Btw, who do you guys think was attacked Night 1? By Mafia of course.

I kind of assume me. I started and heavily pushed for the DC bandwagon and had Zab on my scumlist, which would make me a big target because of worries that I could do the same to Zab that I did to DC. Of course, they could have also targeted you, AP, or rofl. I could see all being targeted and doc-protected.

P-edit: Are you fucking serious, Taz? I would policy lynch you if I hadn't investigated you myself.

Unvote

until such a time as I can make sense of the bullshit you caused.

[Rob14]

I thought it was an interesting endeavor to play the part of a watcher
I will now say this: I guess I won't be so lucky if I use my other shot at all.

Tonight, do not use your shot on a miller. Whether one exists or two, don't do it. There is a high probability that I will shoot one of them, and we don't want to waste two shots on one person.

[Rob14]

Vote BC

for reasons that have been stated by many. I'm starting to agree that millers need to go ASAP so that we can concentrate on others. There's a very real possibility that at least one is scum, and the confirmed scum's interaction with BC (and vice versa) is suspicious.

[Rob14]

I played with Taz before and he didn't play nothing like this. Almost everything he says is just tasteless and useless.
rofl is clearly town.
Gonna ISO DemonCore and some other people.

I would hesitate to vote Malp because this is actually true and candid about me.

He needs to die for using a double negative.

As a grammar nazi, I endorse this post.

[Rob14]

Actually no. Darthe is still scum. I don't care. Why did he not immediately vote Tazaro and accuse him of lying. BAH. If Darthe makes it any significant distance in this game as scum Im going to pissed at Taz.

No vote because Taz is confirmed town? He did accuse him of lying.

[Rob14]

Without much conviction though. I doubt Darthe would flip anything other than Mafia goon at this point, but :/

If he's town and on shaky territory, a vote for confirmed town would be suicide. Any reasonable player would know that. He couldn't go after Taz without being immediately lynched. His response was ideal, in my opinion.

[Rob14]

I'm tired of people saying ProHawk is scum, so here's why he isn't:

Rob, you have a few good points against BloodCovenant, except for one part. Wouldn't scum try to avoid each other more than make connections with each other? Do you really think that scum would make two connections back and forth to sacrifice the other scum-partner should one flip scum?

While this does not exonerate BC or Zabriel, I think it does make it not so fairly obvious as you say it is.

He seems to defend BC and Zab. Looks suspicious, right?

I think I can see it now.

VOTE: zabriel

Wow. Miller claim already.

Seems legit. BC=Obvtown

.

I was mostly commenting on how he was claiming miller in first post, and that's like one of two schools of thought on how to play Miller. But it was so to the letter it was just kind of funny.

I also wasn't sure if it was a legit claim or not.

These two posts do not equate.

Nevermind, it doesn't look suspicious at all. I re-explained my points about Zab and BC and he agreed and hopped on voting for Zab. If scum was going to try to help out his buddies BC and Zab, then he would stick to his guns, at least until it seemed like vastly more people were against Zab/BC than for them. He wouldn't re-evaluate and switch from being on Zab/BV's side to bussing after only a re-explanation of past points against Zab and very little other change in the situation. It wouldn't make sense. Only town would be willing to adjust their views in this situation because they're willing to re-ISO and adjust views if they see something new, which he did.

We're 5 days into the game, which is less that halfway through this phase, why are you so eager to to finish the day?
and why do you want a pile of dead bodies?

As much as it seems bad on the surface, it fits with his style of play, and seems to echo much of the sentiment of players I have seen here (from the little I have seen). I am willing to compromise on a DC lynch after an eval of ISO, particularly of Post #166, however, I still feel we should be lynching zabriel.

@drmy and Rob, any consensus as to when you two want the day to end?

Why would scum call out both of his partners in one post? If people are going to switch over to a wagon on DC, BussingScum-ProHawk would be hopping wagons and hoping everyone forgets about Zab so that he doesn't lose TWO scum-partners. He isn't going to be thinking "well, it seems like people are going to lynch a partner no matter what,

so let's keep drawing attention to both in all of my posts."

Do you guys see how that would make no sense at all from a scum POV?

Completely agree, don't counterclaim until later in the game. That way in the off chance he is telling the truth about being cop, we don't mis-lynch him and scum would be forced to kill him.

Now, on to the dreaded "other scum" post. It seems to be the source of most reads on ProHawk. People conveniently forget to read the above post, which explains why he didn't want a lynch of DC. If DC is actually a cop, mafia will kill him that night for sure. If not that night, the next. No scum-team wants a live claimed cop. Even if it creates a possible future mislynch, the cop role can help clear townies and find scum very easily after it flips and the person is proved cop, as long as the cop posts investigation results in-thread before they're lynched. If DC is scum, then he wouldn't be killed by mafia (obviously). This means that we would lynch him on Day 2 or 3 because the fact that he was still alive would confirm him as scum.

This makes absolutely 100% perfect sense.

Frankly, if I had seen this post and not been tunneling like never before, I would have probably unvoted DC because we would have been able to lynch another ObvScum and have either a cop still alive or a confirmed scum as our Day 2-3 lynch. There's no down-side to leaving him for a day or two and so much potential upside in having a live cop. As this post explains why he said, "onto the other scum," the prior comment is no longer scummy because his logic is flawless.

-----

Now, everyone, stop saying ProHawk is scum and get back to lynching millers.

[Rob14]

For the record, Darthe, your psychology crap is an appeal to authority, and a bad one at that. A psychologist is not automatically better at the mechanics of the game (i.e. the vote) because the game was made by a set of different psychologists. That's like saying men are better at using electricity because a man discovered it.

[Rob14]

Darthe-AP arguing is Town v. Town. Let's move on to lynching BC.

[Rob14]

Darthe has been nothing if not consistent and his explanation of why he votes how he does explains some of the most scummy posts. His reaction to Taz's gambit was ideal.

If anyone is VT, claim. If no-one makes that claim, we should consider Darthe pretty much definitely town.

Josh Lyman, I want to hear more from you during this day. If we kill another scum soon, I will be very, very willing to lynch you based on activity.

[Rob14]

If anyone is VT, claim. If no-one makes that claim, we should consider Darthe pretty much definitely town.

Not sure if trolling.

Look at his reaction against Taz. Taz gave him the easiest out possible if he was lying. He restated it many times. Darthe stuck to his guns and was adamant that Taz was lying, despite Taz being confirmed town. That is not the action of a member of the scum team. Scum would claim vig, especially when given multiple opportunities to do it. The fact that there has to be one VT in the game and no one else has claimed VT makes it extremely likely that Darthe is telling the truth.

[Rob14]

We don't need a massclaim. We need a single VT to claim. Any single one will do. If none claim, it clears Darthe (because there has to be one, as per the rules). If one claims, then it gives scum one less target at night (which isn't a big deal).

I do not think Darthe is scummy for reasons I've already stated. If he is scum, I would be beyond shocked.

Also, no one has responded to my wall on ProHawk. Maybe I should have been more clear that I would like a response from those who've been stating he is a legitimate lynch possibility.

[Rob14]

I stand by my read of Darthe as town, but I'll re-ISO him Soon(TM) to see if I pick up anything new.

Hell, I'll just re-ISO everyone. It can't hurt. It will take me a few days, though. I'll do Darthe, CKD, Cheery, and Peregrine in my first round for various reasons and then hit up the rest in future rounds. I'm skipping Taz and drmy, because of obvious reasons.

P-edit: I still think CKD is a future lynch, Day 4 at the absolute latest. Will post a wall on him for sure when I re-ISO him. I would like one less miller in the game by tomorrow, though.

I just realized something - BC is on V/LA and hasn't caught up yet. DO NOT LYNCH HIM until he gets back. If there is a quick-lynch while I'm asleep/at classes tomorrow, I will policy lynch the hammer so hard...

P-P-edit: Just throwing this out there more as a note to myself than anything else, because I'll probably forget before I wake up again. I have no read on Cheery. None at all. In fact, I hardly remember any of his posts. This bothers me because there are 33 of them. He has more posts than such notable names as Zab, DC, Mal, ProHawk, etc. and I got reads on all of them during their limited time posting. He may be doing a really good job of sliding under the radar if he's scum. Or I'm paranoid. But it's definitely worth looking at. I rarely fail to notice a person as completely as I have Cheery.

[Rob14]

Did a quick Cheery skim and...wow. I need to read that closer. And you all should too.

[Rob14]

You did, but today was Football Sunday and my Fantasy match-up came down to two points (unfortunately, I lost), so I have admittedly been paying less attention to things than I should have been.

[Rob14]

And my Cheery red-flags are not Day 2 stuff, Darthe. They are Day 1 things. Specifically how he seems to leap on the smallest typos and messed-up words as legitimate reasons to vote and lynch. It's very opportunistic. I don't like it at all.

P-edit: You've made a bad choice. Samsung's TV failure rate is higher than average, if I remember correctly.

[Rob14]

But seriously, you are town.

And....it's back? lol

[Rob14]

Any thoughts on Taz as investigation-immune SK? Thought I'd throw it out there. He admittedly killed Zab.

Also, @Taz, I have a town x999999 read on drmy because of his reads, his play style, his tone, everything. Not saying he definitely couldn't be scum, but I know that I won't see any scum-tells in his ISO because I'm biased too much already towards thinking he's extremely town. If someone else that thinks he's scum wants to ISO him, go for it.

[Rob14]

I'm now hating mal's miller claim. I'm wary of

any

miller claim (scum just make themselves cop immune for no reason), but if I got a miller role PM and someone else claimed miller, it would take a lot of convincing for me to not park my vote on that person.

Short and sweet reads (will "elaborate" on request for a specific one)

town: AP,

rofl

,

rob13

, darthe,

prohawk

,

zab

(497),

CKD

(yes, I flip-flopped)

What do you think is the significance of the fact that Demon Core said he flip-flopped on CKD?

I maintain, as I have from the start, that CKD and DC are on the same scum team. ISO together for great lolz.

The significance of the flip-flop is that he realized CKD was bussing him and tried to build up CKD's town cred more when possible. His interactions with CKD in the early game are also suspicious.

[Rob14]

What are the chances scum-Malp went of the reservation after scum-Blood's miller claim and did the same?

not totally outside the realm of possibility. if thats the case i imagine there's a post very early in the scum qt pregame that says "someone should claim miller in their first post." bc did it, and we know malp didn't read the thread before his claim. even if the first "miller" we kill flips scum i still want the second "miller" in this game dead long before lylo. i just think there is a much stronger case for blood-scum than malp-scum right now. blood-zabriel interactions around his miller claim and my questioning of it. blood-dc interactions around the dc wagon and his vote for, then jump off after the claim. it all points to blood-scum.

And that's why we lynch the millers.

[Rob14]

I won't disclose my vig target other than to say that I will not vig a lurker. Can't let people interfere with the kill, after all. If Taz wants to, I'm totally on board with that.

To be honest, I don't even know who my vig target will be yet. It will change depending on BC's flip.

[Rob14]

special case / could be scum with blood - angrypidgeon

My mom always told me I was special!

Intent to hammer yadda yadda.

Is Rob Vigging Miller 2 if the first one flips scum?

Tazaro should vig from CKD/Josh/Darthe Imo.

Also, I'm okay with this hammer. We already have BC's claim and there's really nothing he could possibly say that would help his position right now.

[Rob14]

AND FOR THE TRIPLE POST:

Josh Lyman, you need to start posting more. If you pick up your prod, I want to see high quality reads and posts from you in Day 3. If I don't, you'll be getting my attention.

[Rob14]

Yep. Scum would wait before they claimed miller. Miller is a plausible role in this game (because I'm one). There are lots of PRs that make millers more likely. These are the reasons that make me believe BC is town. Plus his posts are not that scummy, if he didn't claim miller he wouldn't be the lynch today.

If you're going to claim miller, no matter what, you do it first post. If you don't, it's likely that the climate of the game in the future (i.e. pressure on you, etc.) will make a claim of miller suicide. Also, counterclaims happen. That's the point. Having two millers is weird for balance, especially when mafia also has PRs (doctor, I'm assuming they have more because that would make sense). Would you consider having one doctor in the game to mean that it becomes more likely that a second doctor is in the game? How about one SK meaning it to be more likely that there are two SKs? Stacking the game with multiple identical town or anti-town roles (outside of the scum team) results in an unbalanced set-up most of the time.

P-edit: We are not policy-lynching BC. His interactions with the scum team are extremely, extremely suspect.

[Rob14]

In all honesty, BC, you've been lynched.

Were you scum?

[Rob14]

In all honesty, BC, you've been lynched.

Were you scum?

nope. town miller.

We'll see.

[Rob14]

I need a doc-protect tonight if one exists. This is ability-related, but I cannot explain it. I

may

have stretched the truth slightly for reactions when I claimed earlier.

[Rob14]

Tazaro, that crazy bastard. He drew the NK as essentially a VT. RIP

Now, moving on, I have a third ability that I previously didn't disclose. This is why I asked for a doc-protect last night. My third 1-shot ability is Gunsmith. Would you care to explain my result mal?

[Rob14]

Vote roflcopter

I believe AP over rofl by a lot due to his read on some of the people in the game and his tunnel Day 1 on BC who is now confirmed-town.

P-edit: Scum preparing for this exact moment? Herp-derp.

[Rob14]

Still waiting on mal's response, by the way.

[Rob14]

rob, did you really GS Malp? And can we get some form of confirmation that GS doesnt pos on millers?

[quote="See this in the Wiki]A Miller (sometimes called an Outsider) is a role or role modifier such that the player passively returns an unfavorable result (i.e. Guilty) if investigated by a Cop.
This version of Miller, and only this version of Miller, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net.[/quote]

Therefore, any investigation on a miller other than by Cop must return something that indicates innocence in a normal game. We are in a normal game, so his result means he's almost definitely guilty (unless a vig, which is possible).

And yes, I did use GS on Mal. I didn't use it N1 because I had two millers to choose from and I wanted to know for sure whether or not Taz was innocent, since his play was suspicious but difficult to get a solid read on. With only one miller left, it was the clear choice.

[Rob14]

rob, did you really GS Malp? And can we get some form of confirmation that GS doesnt pos on millers?

A Miller (sometimes called an Outsider) is a role or role modifier such that the player passively returns an unfavorable result (i.e. Guilty) if investigated by a Cop.
This version of Miller, and only this version of Miller, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net.

Therefore, any investigation on a miller other than by Cop must return something that indicates innocence in a normal game. We are in a normal game, so his result means he's almost definitely guilty (unless a vig, which is possible).

And yes, I did use GS on Mal. I didn't use it N1 because I had two millers to choose from and I wanted to know for sure whether or not Taz was innocent, since his play was suspicious but difficult to get a solid read on. With only one miller left, it was the clear choice.

Fail quote fixed.

[Rob14]

@Rofl- why was there no scumkill night 1?

because i am a jack of all trades and one of my abilities is

1-shot bulletproof

As in, you give that ability to someone else? Who did you give it to?

what? no. how do you get that from that? i just don't even.

i was bulletproof. it was a one shot ability. i did not get any confirmation on whether or not a shot was taken at me, but in light of the fact that i pushed through the lynch on the mafia goon and was still gunning for the mafia doctor going into night one it makes perfect fucking sense that they shot at me. and then there was no kill but the vig kill that night.

Just so we're clear, you are claiming to be 1-shot Bulletproof Town JOAT?

that is correct. i am a town joat. i have at least two 1-shot abilities. one of them was/is 1-shot bulletproof. i may or may not have used any other ability(ies) i have. since my lynch is going to get pushed through based on ap's "guilty" i will not claim these other abilities no matter what. i will say that none of my other abilities have thus far amounted to anything useful (but i thought that drawing a nightkill to my bp was pretty damn useful)

Can you tell me your town motivation behind withholding info to your death?

[Rob14]

@Rob why are you not pushing for a malp lynch since you know more than anything else right now that he is guilty?

Waiting for his response at the moment. Unless it's satisfactory, which there is only one claim that I can think of that would make it so, I'll be voting for him very, very soon.

Frankly, I like the results from pressuring rofl at the moment, though. His responses are very interesting.

P-edit: Yeah, but you said you were pretty certain you were going to by lynched and therefore wouldn't give info. If you were L-1 and someone stated intent to hammer, would you give up the info on your role before death so we knew your abilities?

[Rob14]

It could be the amount of coffee Im chugging, but my heart is racing over here.

There was so much pressure to kill all the millers either via lynch or vig-shot, that he was going to flip by end of N2 at the latest. Why on earth would I defend a scum buddy when its painfully obvious he is dying no later than N2?

why on earth would i try to tie you to someone who is going to die no later than n2 and flip

town

????

Its not exactly a super rare scum tactic.
1. You are no longer accountable for that read after the flip
2. It looks like scum hunting
3. It makes you look less all-knowing

now you're making up reasons and retroactively applying them to your previous read. you already said it was an "epiphany." this is confirmation bias slash you are scum making this all up.

Why does scum have motivation to fake a guilty in a normal game where there is no bussing?

[Rob14]

EBWODP: Meant busdriver.

[Rob14]

EBWODP: Meant busdriver.

Bus driver? there are none in normals

That's the point, silly. I asked why would you be motivated to claim a non-existent guilty verdict as scum when you don't even have the "must have been a busdriver - herp derp" argument to fall back on.

[Rob14]

inb4 "must be a framer"

Framer wouldn't target you because framer wouldn't think you'd be investigated.

[Rob14]

IDK, I kinda had an epiphany. Something seemed off. I saw the BC flip and thought "Well what was I expecting". Went back and saw that post. The line about me being a scumteam with blood caught my eye. I stared at it for a second. And yo know how sometimes you subconsciously pick up on a bunch of small things that are off, but don't really put it all together? But then, wham, some stimulus happens and it all snaps into your head at once? That is pretty much what happened.

Your Dcore bus was pretty giveaway.

This made a ton of sense to me.

And If Im lying, you are being awfully defensive about your game play as opposed to, IDK, calling me a liar.

will you walk yourself to the gallows tomorrow when i flip town? i already asked this and you went with the 'lol not talking to confirmed scum' route

Why are you asking me and not asserting that I must die Tomorrow?

because i'm trying to give you a chance to act like town and not an idiot but you keep refusing to do so

Complete bullshit. Can we lynch now?

Definitely not. I'm waiting on mal's response to my earlier line of inquire.

Why do you, as a claimed miller, have a gun?

[Rob14]

Slow down with lynching mal. I'm all for it, but I want to see his response first and get some more info on the rofl v AP before day is done. I also promised myself I'd post a wall on CKD before this day was done. I don't want to lose a town vig if mal got the stupid idea to fake-claim.

Also, I did not ask the mod about millers, but if the miller operates any other way than the one I described, than the mod has made a major mistake in running a normal game. We can wait for confirmation for sure, though.

P-Edit: No mass-claim yet, it's not helpful yet.

[Rob14]

This thread is moving so fast that I'm not going to quote stuff, so @Whoever-said-the-thread-needs-more-me:

I took a nap. Sue me.

@Mal: In normal games, gunsmiths receive "no gun" results from millers. Explain that please. Essentially, are you a town vig? That is the only way I can conceivably come to the conclusion that you would fake-claim, but even that is shaky as hell.

[Rob14]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well. The 'normal' page for GS kind of implies that a miller would not have a gun, but it also is more open ended than conclusive. It would be nice if Rob would ask the mod and possibly get a response.

Hm, ok CKD is town.

It specifically says on the miller page that they normally only fool Cop investigations and that this, and only this, variation of a miller is normal. A separate variation is listed under the Variations area where gunsmith would get a no gun result as well.

As for mal, congratulations, you're not scum. Gambit success. I did not have a 1-shot gunsmith. I did use my 1-shot vig already (it didn't work; not sure why - Mafia Doctor is gone so I'm assuming Mafia Roleblocker or some other PR).

After Day 2's flip, I ISO'd Mal. Him being scum makes no sense to me if BC is town. He held the unpopular opinion that BC was town while a town flip of BC would not mean Mal town. I mean, what? It still makes no sense to me. It makes even less sense if he's scum. Why try to confirm someone town using unpopular logic and, at the same time, claim that BC's flip should give him no town cred. Makes even less sense when you consider DC was all over BC, which would be an indicator to his scum-buddies to either stay out of the argument or help get BC lynched. Seriously, re-ISO mal considering that BC is conf-town. It changes his ISO entirely. If mal is scum, he is the most unopportunistic player I have ever seen.

Now consider mal's reaction to this gambit. I got a supposed gunsmith guilty result on him. Conventional logic for scum is claim vig (especially when we know there are vigs in this game). Sticking to his guns isn't smart. Even after pressure, he stuck with the idea that he's miller. I think he's actually the miller. The more we learn about the amount of PRs that town has, the more I realize that two millers is entirely feasible. And a great way to mind-fuck us to boot.

Nope, our lynch today is rofl with the conf-guilty on him.

P-edit: Eh - nvm. If there's no conf-guilty, then there's not convincing enough of a case on rofl to bring me to vote him.

Vote CKD

For prior reasons. Also, look at his ISO considering that DC is scum, Zab is scum, and BC is town. It's full of teh lulz.

[Rob14]

I just caught ap in a lie. Then he says I am town. Then he backtracks. When I say it is bullshit. I am scum again. There is no other Fucking lynch today. He is scuuuuuum.

Nah, you're our lynch.

[Rob14]

Rob I take it you targeted Malp last night?

No, CKD

[Rob14]

CKD: Agreeded. Every single one of them. And rofl. Shooty. Anyone else who has a behaviour that is awkward even in Newbie games. Yep lets just kill everyone.

This made me lol quite a bit, and basically sums up my thoughts when two major town reads and a conf-town in Tazaro perform gambits and then someone says Lynch All Liars.

P-edit: Peregrine, it's not that difficult. I performed a gambit by saying I targeted Mal with gunsmith. In reality, I don't have gunsmith and did not target mal. I attempted to vig CKD and failed. I performed the gambit to test Mal's reaction because my read on him, based on a definitely town BC, was prob-town. His reaction passed with flying colors.

P-P-edit: I gave mal a chance, two actually, to claim vig, a role that has a gun but is town-based. I never said he was definite scum.

[Rob14]

OK, this argument is stupid town v town. Let's stop it.

Now, AP, ISO rofl and tell me why you decided to gambit on him (in the ISO) and construct I case for him being scum. Until you do, I'm ignoring this spam.

[Rob14]

Fine, I'll do an honest claim. You guys are no fun.

Role: Town Jack of all Trades
Abilities:
1-Shot Cop
1-Shot Vig

N1 Action: 1-Shot Cop on Tazaro --> Innocent
N2 Action:

Nothing

I didn't think through the effect of trying to convince scum that I had no remaining vig shot, possibly due to a 3rd party or stupid-town, on how you would consider my gambit against Mal. Admitting it is probably the best way to convince you all mal is town, so I suppose it's worth it. I used no action last night because I didn't want to vig mal and I didn't want to hit someone that Taz was also hitting (I assumed he was truthful that he had 2-shot vig instead of 1-shot). I saved my vig shot.

Yeah, I know that's another lie. I thought it was my best chance of not being roleblocked if there actually is a Mafia Roleblocker out there. If you policy-lynch me before I use my vig, I will literally rage.

[Rob14]

The fuck does popcorn mean?

[Rob14]

>.>

Popcorn: CKD

I am literally so confused. Define popcorn in this context. I'm not sure about other people, but I know it as a food.

[Rob14]

Oh, okay. I choose CKD.

[Rob14]

I must be Fucking lying. I didn't go back and look. Of fuck now I think about I claimed my 1 shots out of order too. Next thing u know I will be fake claiming too.

Try a little harder scumbag.

Can we lynch the scum now?

[Rob14]

Wow. AP, you are VT?
Do you like fire or rope?

My god, not you too drmy! Town members gambit. Deal with it. AP is so obvtown it hurts.

[Rob14]

I mean, Rofl wagon built up like fire and gasoline.
I thought it was Prohawk's turn to claim.

Eh, order doesn't really matter.

[Rob14]

Why are we not lynching CKD?

And yes, I'm going to keep posting this until it happens because he's so obv-scum.

[Rob14]

Also, drmy remains obvtown. More at 10.

[Rob14]

So what's stopping us from Malpascp lynch, again?

The fact that it makes no sense that he tried to confirm BC town.
The fact that he reacted appropriately, in my opinion, to my gambit.
The fact that CKD, keeping in mind the BC-town flip, is as ObvScum as DC was on Day 1.

[Rob14]

^Don't argue then. Just vote CKD.

[Rob14]

Finally! This CKD wagon pleases me greatly.

[Rob14]

By the way, I know I haven't restated my reasons for suspecting CKD during this day. If anyone wants me to, ask. I'll do a wall. I just don't feel like doing it unless people need me to, since I've said a lot of stuff about him in the past.

[Rob14]

I was going to make the obligatory snarky comment about how you won't consider voting rofl unless I make a case, yet you are voting CKD w/o a case but I decided not to be that guy.

@Drmy: I can't wait for a future game where I actually have a legit claim and you will just give me the not-sure-if look. But honestly, if you ISO me I was slipping all over the place. I can point to several quotes when I was keeping it up that were obvious slips.

Difference: I asked you for a case specifically. No one asked me for a wall yet.

Second Difference: I've made cases/arguments against CKD in the past. You haven't made arguments against rofl in the past.

Third Difference: CKD has not shown up as a town read on almost anyone's lists. Rofl is a relatively strong town read for a lot of people.

On another subject, I did notice your slips. I'm assuming you noticed mine as well, probably cause we were both in the "gambit" state of mind. Unlike you, I didn't say a thing about it because I wanted to see where it would go. Grr.

[Rob14]

Drmyshotgun protected rob N1. Rev, you scum?

We need a full rofl claim.

[Rob14]

somebody give me a short version of the case on ckd because i still don't think he's scum

I just realized I missed this post when I looked at your ISO. I will address this Friday evening, since I'll be going back home from college for the weekend on Friday and won't be able to write up a detailed ISO until Friday night.

[Rob14]

Rob, I need a wall please and I can wait until Friday Night. Thanks!

Message received, will do.

[Rob14]

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Aw cmon, there was everyone online before when I was playing poker, now when I'm ready for an hour of arguing and finger wagging there's no-one online. No fair.

I'm online. Finger-wag away.

[Rob14]

Yeah but you're town. Do you think my post was scummy? If so, why?

Nah. You're prob-town on my mental reads list.

[Rob14]

So I can't even accuse him of being scum any more. Lame.

This sits very,

VERY

bad with me.

[Rob14]

If I hadn't received results that pointed oaway from AP being scum, I probably would have been voting AP today because of his lie, and if he had actually claimed cop I would have had to assume he was a serial killer.

You do realize that no-gun leaves SK possibility alive?

[Rob14]

If I hadn't received results that pointed oaway from AP being scum, I probably would have been voting AP today because of his lie, and if he had actually claimed cop I would have had to assume he was a serial killer.

You do realize that no-gun leaves SK possibility alive?

EBWOP: NOT suggesting that that's likely. With the kills that have happened so far, we probably don't have any SK.

[Rob14]

^Incorrect. Mislynches and NKs could lead to a loss. Also, we don't have infinite vig shots. Only one more that I'm aware of.

[Rob14]

I think paid pyro claimed vt yesterday

Which means it's just pere and josh still to claim

*isos*
So he did. He's too quiet to get any sort of read off, but surely scum posts more than 4 times? I dunno about this site, but where played before here, wolves are usually excited about their role and rarely drift by with minimal input. Some like to lie low, but not this low. But, I don't know about people at this site.

It varies completely based on playstyle and even the other people in the game. Personally, I'm all over the board as scum. Sometimes I lurk the fuck out of things and sometimes I post like mad and try to lead town. There are many different strategies. Lack of activity certainly doesn't clear someone. If anything it's scummy because it provides the town with no info.

[Rob14]

Note who are our JOAT claims.

CKD, rofl, and me. And yet rofl and CKD have both suggested JOAT is a theme of the game, so they must be relatively confirmed by being one. This hasn't sat right with me since Day 2, but it was a useless observation if only CKD was claiming JOAT in addition to me. Now that rofl is also claiming JOAT, it's something worth looking at.

If CKD flips non-JOAT (read: scum), then rofl is lying scum for this reason and his weird-ass reaction.

[Rob14]

Working on my CKD wall...wait for it...

NOW!

[Rob14]

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY CKD WALL!

vote Demon Core

for the stick in my ass.

(insert some sort of I told you so line here)

First vote on potential scum-buddy. This is really minor, but I often do this as scum and I've seen many others do it as well. It registers as a ping on my scumdar.

I think I can see it now.

VOTE: zabriel

Wow. Miller claim already.

Seems legit. BC=Obvtown

.

I was mostly commenting on how he was claiming miller in first post, and that's like one of two schools of thought on how to play Miller. But it was so to the letter it was just kind of funny.

I also wasn't sure if it was a legit claim or not.

These two posts do not equate.

Yeah, sure it looks like he's backing off since i took heat. He's attempting to distance himself from me.

Zab, can you please explain these two posts?

BC, can you please explain what you mean by "distancing"? I have only heard this term in reference to scum distancing themselves from another.

what is he distancing himself from?

Zab's crazy suspicious posts register as "hey, can you please explain this?" giving his scum-partner a chance to explain away his scumminess while BC is automatically implied to be scum due to word choice. It's an inconsistent standard of how much pressure is applied for how much scumminess is showing. Of course, the conf-scum is getting off easier than the conf-town on his standard.

why would Zabtown "distance" himself from someone he doesnt know is scum?

why would anything BC(you)town do "implicate" Zab?

these two terms are not sitting right with me.

waiting on an answer from Zab

also

unvote

Keeps questioning word choice and keeps trying to get Zab to explain himself away instead of building a case against him or voting to apply pressure and force an answer. Not typical town behavior.

uhhhh?

I claim miller.
Zab says "yeah, BC is legit town"
Then when Zab gets confronted about his statement, he backs off because he knows he could be lynched because of my poor play.

It's not the same kind of distancing between scum partners in my opinion. It's more of me being a leper and no one wants to be connected to me, town or scum.

this doesnt make any sense...IF you are telling the truth and you get lynched (flipping town)...why would Zab be worried and change his stance to "I am not sure if the claim is legit"? it seems to me, he would keep his stance. as town that doesnt make any sense. now if Zab knew you were scum and if you were lynched (flipping scum) he WOULD distance himself from you with that post.

Now he begins implying that if BC is town, then Zab is probtown while if BC is scum, then Zab is probscum. This sets the stage for a lynch on BC to get info. It's an attempt to get a BC flip of town and get Zab some cred that he doesn't deserve. He does things like this in earlier posts I quoted too - he always says "IF BC is scum, THEN Zab is probably distancing" or something like that. It all moves towards a lynch of BC, but he's not really pressuring his scum-partner Zab at all because the BC-flip would make his "case" against Zab nonexistent.

I am not sure why I am not understanding what exactly you are saying. I dont know if you are back tracking or if I am completely misunderstanding you.

"The only thing that

i have done

that

would make people believe

that Zab and I are on a scum team together is if we had pre-game talk and came up with this huge ass gambit about me claiming miller. "

What

have you done

, in this game,

to make people believe

that you and Zab have had pregame talk?

More word-choice nonsense.

to me it is sounding like slips. but I just cant imagine "slips" being this obvious.

I agree that if one flips scum, the other is probably scum...

More of what I mentioned earlier. Note how this helps scum since they know the alignments.

Scenario #1: We lynch BC first, flips town. No case remains on Zab.
Scenario #2: We lynch Zab, flips scum. Well, if one is scum, the other MUST be scum, so we lynch BC-town the next day. If Zab's going to get lynched anyway for his suspicious shit, this is the best possible scenario for scum - it means an informationless mislynch on Day 2.

well my gut says vote BC...

I actually took Zab's "miller...OBVtown" post a different way (will explain after he answers my question)..

want Zab to answer my question first before I decide who to vote.

Still giving Zab chance after chance to explain himself and he even directly hints that he expects Zab's response to dismiss all of the evidence against him. He basically already has his conclusion of Zab-town and is looking for evidence to fit it rather than gathering evidence to form a conclusion. The process of scum-hunting is all backwards. Major scum-tell IMO.

Not quoting ISO #11 because it's super long and will take up space, but he votes BC and then says, exact quote, "when he flips scum, Zab your next." [which the grammar nazi in me must point out is the wrong use of "your"]. This is just another example of the stuff I've said earlier.

Claiming Miller i guess.

It really feels like you're trying to put words in my mouth now.

wait what? I am not putting fucking words in your mouth I trying to understand what the fuck you are saying.

btw "claiming miller" in no way links you to "pregame scum chat with Zab"....I think you are backtracking, I caught you in at least one slip, and now you are trying a different tactic by discrediting me?

what words am I putting in your mouth? quote the post.

I said it feel's like your putting words in my mouth.

yeah thats what I thought

so you cant quote the post that makes you "feel" like I am putting words in your mouth?

fuck nevermind, I have a feeling that I am going to get another dodge or backtrack or strangely worded reply sending me into another vortex of of shit.

also I want to meta something BC said.

WAY over-emotional. Upon his first contact with BC questioning his motives, he reacts in a strangely angry way. Scummy.

this Zab lynch is too fucking easy...a wagon built up on him based on a sarcastic remark?

bullshit.

AP I am curious, am I still scum when/if he flips town? I would like to know before the day ends?

Woah, wait a second here. Wasn't Zab "next" once we lynched BC just a moment ago? Now, when he faces actual pressure, you're against his lynch? Welcome, folks, to Scum City!

Gosh you are a ball of noise. You should bus DemonCore.

If BC flips scum then that makes you less scummy. Lol, are you implicating that BC and I are a team? Because I sure did an excellent job of getting any towncred out of that scenario!

VOTE: Curious Karma Dog

NM, bus yourself.

thank you, that wasnt so hard now was it.

or maybe it was, because I got that vote now didnt I...

Don't even try to claim that was a OMGUS vote. He's been consistently saying you seemed scum since he caught up with the thread. You're being over-aggressive and coming across very badly for it right now.

lol, did I say it? he HAS been attacking me...but it was only after I pressured him to answer a question he avoided twice I got the vote....thought it was funny.

He heavily suggests OMGUS, probably hoping someone picks it up. When I call him on the nonsense, he backs off and says that he never said it was. It's oddly inconsistent.

I am now so fucking frustrated, I sort of want to be taken to a point of a claim, as a big fuck you to AP...oh shit, did I just soft claim after one vote? take me to -1 and find out. (note: I realize this is an immature and probably anti-town attitude to take, so punish me)

ObvScum right here. He suggests he's a PR and actually wants to claim. Why would town WANT to claim? No reason.

dont play dumb..

you would only be rolling in town cred AFTER a BC flip. maybe a vig would target BC to see...or with two miller claims, the town might lynch BC to see....and look, "BC is town and I defended him"....

This post was talking to AP, by the way. But seriously, what happened to being sure BC was scum? If BC is as scummy as opportunistic CKD was saying he was earlier, why is he willing to deal in this hypothetical? It's because he knew BC was town all along.

ISO #37 is his vote on DC. It's also long, you can look in his ISO for it if you want. Nothing inherently suspicious about it.

DC claimed cop....I dont believe it.

I will take the hammer.

unvote, vote DC

so now that you are dead....DC, were you really a cop?

Silly attempt to get a DC that was going to inevitably be lynched to admit being scum in thread. If it had worked, he would be rolling in town cred. When Taz ruined it in subsequent posts, he gets really, really angry as indicated in ISO #39-#41 (look them up). Due to the crazy emotion and attempt to get town cred when DC was going to be lynched anyway, most likely, I consider this exchange a tad scummy.

if you are town,

in the future, if you see someone making a "mistake"..especially someone who have been playing over 5 years, before you jump in to express how on top of the game you are, take a moment, and see what happens. do you see the value of what I trying to do, be it a small chance, was still a chance?

And if you weren't convinced before, look at that last line. He practically begs for an acknowledgement of his town cred from his latest stunt. Town wouldn't need to do that.

first I am also a jack of trades with two one shot abilities (sort of confirms rob's claim)

one was a tracker, which I used. this person did not target zab last night. do not want to say who...yet. I would like to see who you said first...if you name this person, than you are lying. I will claim after, for this person can confirm if I am lying or not.

the other..I will keep to myself. (I would provide if it "countered" anything currently in the game)

Claims JOAT and says it confirms my claim (implying that my claim would also confirm his, kind of). This sits very wrong with me for reasons I explained a few posts back.

The rest of his ISO are short posts that build on each other, which I can't be bothered quoting. The highlights include trying to get a Lynch all Liars policy going (which would include AP and me, two of the strongest town reads for the entirety of the game). Note what isn't in his ISO - any acknowledgement of my past cases/pushes against him. He doesn't want to address them because they're correct. Town could address and explain motivations behind their actions. He can't, because his actions aren't town motivated.

AND THUS ENDS THE CKD ISO!

Note a few things from DC's ISO (yeah, there's more, sorry, I promise not to use quotes):

ISO #0: Votes CKD. Pings for the same reason as CKD's ISO #0. The fact that they both did it makes it seem sketchy to me.

Before ISO #18, he has CKD as potentially scum. At post #18, he flip-flops on this with no explanation and puts CKD in his town reads. Makes no sense. Note that he did the EXACT same thing, also with no reason, to Zab in ISO #19. He didn't flip-flop from scum to town or town to scum on ANY other players at this time. Just Zab and CKD. Hmm.

[Rob14]

Now that I've walled CKD, we need approx. three more votes on him.

Cheery is town, AP is town, Rev is probtown.

[Rob14]

you lynch him today and if he is town.....I will be the lynch tomorrow...shit I will put the first vote on myself....

Are you okay with us doing it the other way around? Lynch you, and if you're town, lynch AP?

[Rob14]

OK I'm like so many pages behind. I'll start reading but I've got some family stuff this weekend. Might not be back until Monday.

Can someone give me a run down? Off to read!

I ran a gambit on Mal, claiming to have a positive GS on him. His response was a consistent claim of Town Miller (which does not investigate as positive GS in normal games, as per the wiki). I consider this response favorable.

AP ran a gambit on rofl, claiming to have a mod-confirmed guilty. Rofl's response was emotional attack of AP. You need to read it. I don't have a conclusive read on rofl, although I am certainly more suspicious of him after his response.

Cheery Dog has a negative GS on AP, making him conf-town.

CKD is scum. See my ISO for a wall I did on him. Vote him please.

[Rob14]

^Forgot the mass-claim. See Rev's ISO for a helpful list of all the claims in his reads list (which is also worth reading).

[Rob14]

Silly attempt to get a DC that was going to inevitably be lynched to admit being scum in thread. If it had worked, he would be rolling in town cred. When Taz ruined it in subsequent posts, he gets really, really angry as indicated in ISO #39-#41 (look them up). Due to the crazy emotion and attempt to get town cred when DC was going to be lynched anyway, most likely, I consider this exchange a tad scummy.

^This convinced me.

Never understood why so many people discredited the claim so quickly without blinking.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CKD

I am so sad this thread moves so fast. So many one liners I wanted to reply to, but alas they are pages away and the joke is long gone.

Make your jokes. I need a good one.

[Rob14]

Above average, but nothing amazingly special. B-

[Rob14]

Interesting to consider this subset of players in the game if CKD flips scum (posting now in case of death at night):

Users who were not in the lynching vote for CKD or DC but did vote for BC (so didn't vote for scum and did vote for town):

Spoiler:

PeregrineV

[Rob14]

I think rofl hammered.

damn skippy

And yeah, you did. Thanks! Seriously, though, you'll be happy after flip (or sad if you're scum).

[Rob14]

If PeregrineV is lynched later in game and flips scum for some reason, look hard at rofl. Check PeregrineV's mentions of him (some were listed earlier).

[Rob14]

Ouch, bad vig. Peregrine was mine. I am now most worried about our resident lurkers, Paid Pyro and Josh Lyman. Roflcopter is also kind of meh after the last day, but I still think he's leaning town.

So get in here Pyro and Lyman.

[Rob14]

I've been slain?!?

Bah!

Yeah, sorry about that. You caught my eye in a bad way at the end of the last day.

[Rob14]

Are you kidding me rob. He was so obviously town. The last scum is in {rofl, malp, Darthe} guaranteed. Everyone else is obvtown. Except Josh...Hes just kind of around.

Darthe is possible scum, maybe. I think malp is town. I think rofl is very likely town.

Peregrine's voting pattern and some of his other behavior produced some pings for me when I re-read. I stand by my decision considering what information I had at the time.

[Rob14]

used my block on peregrine last night

angrypidgeon is on /ignore mode for the rest of this game

i'll lynch darthe, josh lyman, or pyro in something like that order, and despite rob thinking his gambit "clears" malp he still needs to die

vote: darthe

/unignore AP, as his question is extremely valid. Please respond to it.