Open 455 - Tit for Tat - OVER

[Disturbed_One]

Vote: Cheery Dog

Because he played in my very first game on-site.

[Disturbed_One]

Eh, why not.

Unvote: Cheery Dog
Vote: Klick

[Disturbed_One]

Woah, mini-wagon on my head already. 0_0

I figured voting Klick might not be a bad idea, it seems like he could be playing a gambit of some sort. Self-voting seems rather unproductive for town, anyway.

[Disturbed_One]

Incorrect. It was a way to escape RVS.

Disturbed/Cheery 2012!

Disturbed, do you have scum meta?

Do you mean on you? I haven't actually researched any meta (as I find it generally useless), my vote wasn't based on Cheery's meta speculation if that's what you mean.

[Disturbed_One]

@ Shamrock:

Not inherently IMO, in fact it's not something that I would expect scum to do. Which is I why I thought it might be a gambit.

@ Klick:

I have no scum meta, have only played town games.

[Disturbed_One]

Well, I'm not scum, but admittedly my vote is

horrible[/b].

That said, sticking on it isn't going to do any good.

Unvote: Klick
Vote: Venmar

For neglecting to comment on the matters at hand.

[Disturbed_One]

EBWOP: Ugh, tag fail.

[Disturbed_One]

Dude... I was with you up until that horrid last vote... Why did you drop Klick like he was hot at the slightest pressure?

UNVOTE: A_Potato

VOTE: Disturbed_One

Because my vote was bad. It was based on logic that I now see to be awful. Therefore, I feel my vote was unjustified.

Edit:

@ Shamrock:

I realized my vote was bad because my logic for it was faulty. I was assuming Klick could be making a gambit as scum, but I failed to consider that he was actually trying to get out of RVS.

[Disturbed_One]

@Mhork: You.

And Disturbed's claim that he wasn't just wagoning feels like bullshit.

This is a really awkward situation for me, but I honestly failed to consider that you were trying to get out of RVS.

[Disturbed_One]

Ah. Yes, I have been. I'm totally creeping on this talk. 0.0

Disturbed, you can't go backtracking like that. It looks real, real sketchy, yeah? How many games have you played so far, out of curiosity?

I understand. But I really do feel like my vote was bad, so what to do?

I have played in three games.

[Disturbed_One]

I realized my vote was bad because my logic for it was faulty. I was assuming Klick could be making a gambit as scum, but I failed to consider that he was actually trying to get out of RVS.

Was there anything in particular you suspected of him or did you just go "self-voting, gambit, scummy, must vote"

Pretty much the latter. We were in RVS and I had a feeling he might be playing a gambit, so I thought it might make a more productive vote than my previous one.

Edit:

@ Klick:

But it wasn't just an RVS wagon. I suspected you were playing a gambit and voted accordingly.

[Disturbed_One]

Dunno. Why did you vote him if your convictions were flimsy enough to go away at a 'hey... Stop.'?

PEdit:
What Klick said. You made it seem like you were voting him for a serious reason, but fled at the sight of pressure or criticism.

PPEdit:
What is this 'gambit' that you keep mentioning?

My logic was that self-voting is not really something I would expect scum to do. I thought Klick was trying to play the "gambit" and do something that scum don't do really do, to make himself look like a townie.

To be honest, I've never actually seen a self-vote before. It freaked me out a bit.

[Disturbed_One]

Ok, so I like HerrRudi and don't really understand the wagon on him. I like his argument against combinatorialEnigma, a quick ISO of his posts show he doesn't really post much content at all in general.

Aside from that, not really getting any other scum reads at the moment.

Unvote: Venmar
Vote: combinatorialEnigma

[Disturbed_One]

@ Lord Mhork:

A_Potato seems okay to me, I don't quite agree with your case on him and think it's a bit weak. I'd say leans town to me.

Hard to judge guille from one post, but I actually agree with you. It does kind of look like he's buddying a bit. It's a subtle thing, but it's definitely there.

I like what HerrRudi has had to say so far. Noticeably, I disagree with him about guille's buddying. But for the most part, I agree with what he has to say. I also dislike the wagon on him, I feel it's not at all strong.

[Disturbed_One]

Okay, so before anyone asks why my opinions have changed a bit. I did a re-read of the whole thread again so I could really give as accurate reads as possible. I found some things I overlooked before.

Reads:

combinatorialEnigma:
At one point my top scum read. Has played a very closed game so far, almost all of his posts are one-liners (and several of them are useless filler). Feels like a player who doesn't want to be caught to me. It's been pointed out that he has a paper, so that might explain why he hasn't posted much. Leaning scummy, we'll see how he plays when he finishes that paper.

HerrRudi:
Pro-town. Has engaged in several arguments with players and pursued them fervently. Feels like a player who is actually scum-hunting.

Nekoko:
Scum. Is pointing a bunch of fingers at different players, which is obviously a scum move to divert attention from herself.

A_Potato:
Pro town. Has been actively scum-hunting and contributing, and isn't afraid to argue with other players.

Lord Mhork:
Pro-town. Actively contributes and scum-hunts, and has been in a few arguments.

numberQ:
Scummy. Has focused on me for the whole game, which implies he's not hunting for scum. In post #132, lists several players as town but only me as scum, which proves my point. Tunneling hard.

Venmar:
Haven't heard too much from him, but typically has valuable information when he does post. Neutral for now.

Cheery Dog:
I agree with his town reads and he seems to get it. Has been actively contributing to the game, so I'll say leaning town for now.

Klick:
Has been on a few wagons, but I don't really think he's scum-hunting all that much. Frequently posts, but at the moment is parking a vote on HerrRudi, a town read. Leaning scum.

guille2015:
Likes Neko's post, which is obviously scummy. I don't know how I feel about that. I like the rest of what he has had to say, even if his Venmar vote is a bit questionable, I feel. Neutral for now.

Shamrock:
Haven't seen too much out of him, but I like what I have read. Was very useful in asking me questions in the early game, and he went against the current wagon when he unvoted me. From what I've seen, I'll say leaning town.

[Disturbed_One]

Vote: Nekoko

[Disturbed_One]

Vote: Nekoko

I don't recall you flipping your vote around this much from our first game on this site. This game you appea to be doing to much, and it has now increased my suspicions of you.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Disturbed

To honestly vote based on that, I think you should look into some of my other games. I have purposefully changed my game up a bit, for example one thing I do is try to be more aggressive lately. Because in the first game, I wasn't exactly in a position to be that aggressive.

[Disturbed_One]

Vote: Nekoko

Congrats for conveniently choosing another target.

What's wrong with that? I don't see anything wrong with changing up targets. I re-read the thread and and used the information I found to make a more informed vote.

[Disturbed_One]

To honestly vote based on that, I think you should look into some of my other games. I have purposefully changed my game up a bit, for example one thing I do is try to be more aggressive lately. Because in the first game, I wasn't exactly in a position to be that aggressive.

You didn't switch your vote around in those much either.
I don't know about the whole playstyle bit (because I know mine has also changed in some points), but your vote change frequency here is lloking to be like you're trying to find a wagon to join, none except your RVS vote of me, have been by your own sole reasons.

I'm not sure exactly why that is so bad. If I find reasoning that I like and feel is worth voting on, should I not vote for it? And what if I haven't found any a "unique" reason to vote for someone? If I can't come up with a better case, I'm not obligated to vote elsewhere.

[Disturbed_One]

What my problem with it is the reason you've just given fro your vote on nekoko, and that's practically what you're doing however over multiple posts with all your vote switches.

Nekoko:
Scum. Is pointing a bunch of fingers at different players, which is obviously a scum move to divert attention from herself.

@Rudi, yes, those are also pretty much my thoughts on him.

Yes, I saw his reasoning and agree with it. Would it be more ok with you if I said that in the first place? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rip of anybody's reasoning here. It seems like people think I am, but really I thought it was obvious that I had so I felt like I didn't need to mention that.

But I do agree with his reasoning, and want to see Nekoko lynched the most.

[Disturbed_One]

@ MagnaofIllusion:

What do you think about Nekoko?

[Disturbed_One]

Your only original idea is your OMGUS about me "tunneling" you with 3 posts. Anything that hasn't been explicitly said by other people is vague as hell. Your town reads are people who agree with you while your scum reads are people who disagree. Literally one of your town-tells is "was in arguments". Well, guess what buddy, this is an argument right here.

And how is Nekoko pointing fingers scummier than me tunneling (which is the implication since you voted Nekoko over me)? If someone's pointing fingers... well... it's mafia, of course they're pointing fingers. If you're convinced I'm tunneling, then what exactly is less scummy about that? The way I see it, out of me and Nekoko, only one of us was voting for you, and only one of us was seen as scummy by other people at the time. You are OMGUSy and sheepy as hell.
--
Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

Again with the originality? Why is this such a big deal? Is recycling a point really such a bad thing? If I feel a point is good, does using it again make it any less potent? I think not. Frankly, I've had it up to here with this bullsmurf about how I can't use other people's points or something. That is beyond ridiculous. If I agree with a case, it is my right to convey my agreement.

Perhaps "tunneling" is too strong or an incorrect word choice, but it does not change the fact that - at the my time of vote - you had focused almost explicitly on me. This suggests a lack of scum-hunting on your part.

I find players who have a strong opinion about something and who get in arguments with other players early on, rather than merely sheep votes are typically town. (There is a possibility they could be really strong scum players, but hey, these are my reads and only reflect my highly personal opinion). I'm talking about people who are actively contributing to the discussion and searching for tells on players. Which is not something you are doing.

Nekoko is scum because of her attempts to divert attention by pointing blame in an absurdly high number of directions. She also is guilty of the same crime you are, which is to focus her vote entirely on me. Really, you're pretty similar the both of you. But I do think that Nekoko is definitely scum. If I'm still alive and we lynch her today, I would then proceed to focus on you. Unfortunately, I can only vote for one person at a time, so unless that changes I need to vote for who I believe is more likely to be scum.

I won't accept being called "sheepy". There are several players in this game with votes on them, the sad fact is that I could vote for almost anyone and they would already have a vote or two placed on them. Sheeping is a part of the game. If no one sheeped, we'd never get anyone lynched.

[Disturbed_One]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

[Disturbed_One]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

also MoI?
or do you still have your read of CE overruling it?

Post #185 is glorious and I have a hard time believing scum could pull that off. Sure, MoI can also be town.

[Disturbed_One]

Note that via meta, MoI likely could pull that off.

I haven't actually read MoI's meta. In fact, I haven't really read anyone's meta because making cases based on meta really isn't my style, honestly.

It sounds like you think we can't clear MoI based off of #185. Is that true?

[Disturbed_One]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

Post #185 is glorious and I have a hard time believing scum could pull that off. Sure, MoI can also be town.

Giving anyone Town cred for a discussion of what is essentially Good Play as opposed to actually related to hunting scum is a bad, bad idea. Scum can easily purpose plans or provide information that are Pro-Town but don’t aid in actually finding scum directly.

So getting a Town read on me for 185 if it is predicated on my 3 Points regarding claims is stupid. If it is based on the rest of the post's actual scum-hunting that's valid.

I guess it's just a read more than anything, but for some reason I get a very strong town feel from Klick's post. I just don't see why a scum player would want to interject a point such as what PRs should actually claim. Your suggestion isn't really here or there for me, anyone can bring up a discussion of good play and they could be town or scum looking to gain credit. I mean, claim procedures such as VTs always claiming VT are fairly obvious. And basically Klick walks in and wants to debate about what PRs actually should do, meaning he wants to challenge what would otherwise be an obvious suggestion of what PRs should actually do.

In other words, your suggestion was fairly low-risk. Everything you have said about the subject is an obvious truth, so stating it is neither here nor there. But Klick challenging something like that is a bit of a gutsy move, which scum in general would try to steer away from risky suggestions.

And by my suggestion that "Post #185 is glorious", I mean your entire post and its contribution to the game.

Although, Klick's suggestion says that you would be capable of making such a pro-town post even as scum. I cannot actually verify this, as I have not looked into your meta. I will offer that you trying to invalidate my town read on you is probably a strong indicator that you are actually town. I'd think scum would be all too happy to take the town credit.

Just my thoughts on the matter, my reads may be right or wrong. But I stand by my read and believe Klick and yourself to be town.

[Disturbed_One]

Can you explain to me why was my first post scummy when I tried to comment on things that caught
my attention in the first three pages? You're again copying someone.
You're using the same reason Venmar used in voting me.

A lot of things caught your attention, apparently. The point is that scum-hunting seeks to separate town from scum, but instead you just pointed your finger in a bunch of different places and commented on "things that caught your attention" (as in, what you thought was scummy behavior) which implies that your post is more about diverting attention attention from yourself and not actually scum-hunting.

Yeah, it's pretty much Venmar's argument. But I feel it's a valid one, so I will argue for it. Do you have a refutation? Just because someone else brought it up first, doesn't make it less valid just because I'm talking about it now.


Also, @ MoI:
I would assume his motivation as a townie for arguing against the "obvious truth" is that he feels he has a "better" viewpoint, or one that feels he would be more beneficial to the town. If he was scum doing this, I'd have to assume he'd want to suggest something that would be harmful to the town. But I think it would be pretty easy to determine whether his suggestion (which is currently pending) is actually helpful or harmful. In my mind, it's much more likely that a townie would want to take this course of action, as opposed to scum trying to sabotage the claiming process. That seems like a high-risk play.

[Disturbed_One]

@ Nekoko:

So if you're unvoting me, then who do you think is scummy now?

[Disturbed_One]

@ Post #250:

I agree with your town-reads, except for Nekoko, who I am still suspicious of. Shamrock made a really good point about the unvote.

What's your reasoning for Venmar = scum?

[Disturbed_One]

Alright. I guess all I have to add right now is that I'm cool with Nekoko or nQ/Bitmap for lynch today.

[Disturbed_One]

@ Lord Mhork:

They're my top scum reads at the moment. I don't like Nekoko, but I also don't like nQ and am fine with that lynch as well.

[Disturbed_One]

Then why aren't you voting them?

...I'm voting for Nekoko, last I checked. Unless I am gravely mistaken, I have not unvoted. :neutral:

[Disturbed_One]

@ Cheery:

What's your case on Mhork?

[Disturbed_One]

Case on Mhork isn't bad, but I get the feeling he's town. Can't really describe it, I guess it's just a gut feeling.

[Disturbed_One]

@Disturbed Are you going to grab ahold of every case of someone being scum?

I'm just curious as to what your reasoning is. I actually wasn't going to vote Mhork, I was just wondering what else you were voting on aside from the whole missing my vote thing.

[Disturbed_One]

@ MoI:

I like your thoughts on Klick, my town-read on him was based in his trying to challenge your claim-plan. But he hasn't elaborated on that at all, so it's now actually starting to look like a scum-tell. I'd like to hear more from Klick.

Also, that was a response to Cheery's reasoning for voting Mhork. Which you already know, because you responded to it.

[Disturbed_One]

Also, that was a response to Cheery's reasoning for voting Mhork. Which you already know, because you responded to it.

So the case, as it were, was that he said you weren't voting Nekoko when you actually were?

There was a bit more reasoning than that. Cheery explains the rest of his read in #272.

[Disturbed_One]

Bitmap reads more town with his/her recent posts. Gut feel, not really a single reason I can point out for why I feel that way.

At the moment, I am still most convinced of Nekoko being scum. Like MoI pointed out, guess who hasn't shared their thoughts in a while? This whole Bitmap thing I think was a useful distraction for Nekoko, but now I feel like we should pressure the heck out of Nekoko and see where that gets us.

I like MoI's points about Klick, but my highest, most top-priority read is Nekoko.

[Disturbed_One]

I'd like to see both Klick and Moi lay out there cases against each other. I think their cases could say a lot about them both.

[Disturbed_One]

Can I just get vigged tonight?

Are you seriously asking for the vig to kill you?

[Disturbed_One]

Who is greygnarl replacing?

Also, will review MoI's case on Klick later on. Klick, do you have a case on MoI?

[Disturbed_One]

Alright, so I went back and completely reviewed the case on Klick in MoI's post. I agree with it, MoI has made some excellent points for Klick being scum.

My only question to MoI is this: Do you think it's possible that Klick and Nekoko could be on the same scum team?

[Disturbed_One]

Actually, I'm convinced of Klick being scum now. MoI's case is rather good I feel, I completely agree with it. Not to mention, this recent "1v1" play of Klick's is really scummy I feel.

I'm actually happy lynching Klick today.

Unvote: Nekoko
Vote: Klick

[Disturbed_One]

Klick has tried a lot of gambits in his lifetime. I wouldn't be surprised if this 1v1 is just another one he has devised. He's probably scum, but I think Nekoko is a much safer bet than taking a risk on someone who is just making a gambit.

What good is this gambit for a townie? It's obvious Klick has no sufficient reasoning for MoI being scum. If he's really trying to use the 1v1 to get MoI lynched without any real evidence, that is a really harmful gambit for the town.

I really don't like the gambit and I really don't like that Klick is incapable of coming up with a case against MoI and trying to get him lynched for no reason.

[Disturbed_One]

What I don't understand Bitmap, is that if you think MoI is scum, then why are you voting Klick? Do you think MoI and Klick are part of the scum team? Are you suggesting their "1v1" might actually be a gambit?

[Disturbed_One]

This whole 1v1 thing is stupid. I, for one, am not going to vote MoI just based on that. I will vote if a case is made on MoI, but I don't think there is a case.

Klick, if MoI is scum, then explain why he is scum and why we should lynch him.

[Disturbed_One]

I agree with Nekoko's (successful) attempt at survival being a scum-tell. While I think both town and scum want to stay alive, I get the sense Nekoko is plain desperate to stay alive and the switch from Venmar to Klick I think proves that desperation.

Vote: Nekoko

[Disturbed_One]

the director seems a bit scummy. MoI's arguments are valid as it is (yes, I read his post; no, it wasn't remotely difficult to do so), and then you have the fact Director is refusing to read a "wall" (which I do not like one bit) and then this OMGUS on Shamrock (who he's not even voting for).

The reason I don't like his refusal to read the wall, is because what if MoI's post, for the sake of argument, contained a massive, obvious scum tell. The Director would never catch this scum tell because he refused to read the post. I think this supports MoI's points -- for example trying to to claim Nekoko as obvtown and not focusing on the players wagoning Nekoko -- that the Director isn't really scum-hunting.

For now, I'm satisfied with the Nekoko lynch. Just some thoughts I had.

[Disturbed_One]

The reason why I unvoted Nekoko was because I was convinced Klick was scum. He had that whole "1vs1" thing and that made him seem very scummy to me. In that moment, I was more convinced that Klick was scum rather than Nekoko.

[Disturbed_One]

I'm kind of neutral on Director and Guille at the moment. Nekoko is right now the safest lynch, I feel. Nekoko's been very scummy all game.

[Disturbed_One]

MoI thinks I should claim, and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't at this point. I am a vanilla townie. Not quite sure how this affects the current situation.

I'm not sure who's town and who's scum between Guille and Cheery. As scum, would it make sense for Cheery to counter-claim at this point? Or if Guille is scum, does it make any sense for him to claim? I'm asking these questions because I'm not quite sure myself. I'd appreciate any opinions anyone might have on this subject.

Should Shamrock and A_Potato claim as well?

[Disturbed_One]

I think the scum motivation from either side is pretty clear - if they can get the JK lynched today, they can activate their own JK and then kill MoI while blocking the vig.

Of course, they need to know who the vig is first. Which makes your prompting for me and A_Potato to claim a bit... questionable.

That makes sense. In this case, I would agree that we can't really tell any player's alignment based on their claim/counter-claim.

I see how it might appear as an attempt at role-fishing, but I'm really just trying to figure out what to do next from here. I figured if I was supposed to claim, perhaps others should claim as well? But I didn't think about the vig, so I agree that a claim should not be happening.

Any ideas on how we should lynch today?

[Disturbed_One]

Let's hear what Guille has to say before anyone else claims, please.

MoI's plan seems a bit complex, but it does seem to add up. Still, I'd like to hear all our options before we continue.

[Disturbed_One]

So we can't lynch one of the JKs, because our chances of victory greatly increase with one. What about A_Potato? Has he been confirmed at all?

[Disturbed_One]

Well, I'm a VT and now I'm a VT as well. So it's my word against yours. I don't see why we can't just lynch AP and use MoI's plan on him, instead.

[Disturbed_One]

guille:

I would not blame this loss entirely on you (though I do feel your claim of blocking me was rash). In fact, I believe you played a rather good game all things considered. The reason the town won is because the town played an excellent game. Plain and simple. So while your claim didn't help things, I do believe that had you played to the plan, we may have very well been caught anyway.

That said, thanks to all for a great game.