Mini 1,384: Dirty Dealing (Game over!)

[Soul2277]

The lower the votes get the tougher a scum lynch becomes so without an agreement we'll be stuck going nowhere (6 town alive and 5 to lynch so yeah I need you agreeing with me if I want a good wagon).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

If kj is scum he's likely with grey (based on patterns). I know there's three scum, but for now I'm focusing a bit (I still find him a weaker scum read then grey or NS and PM fits better in that chain). Kind of interesting how when PM's just stopped posting since day 1 there's a lack of desire to policy lynch him that you'd usually think one scum would be willing to hop on.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Except MoI defended voided most. MoI called him obvious town and fought me over it day 2. Killing one of your most ardent supporters is just stupid. Killing someone who voided suspected some and could have mislynched is stupid.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I still laugh there. Most of my posts aren't walls (oversoul does the walls usually and even he posts concise a good amount).

So now do you agree that voided is town? And you still need to vote GI (I'm stubborn enough to debate this with you repeatedly and my other half can wall why later if needed).

P-edit: I could have mislynched MoI as well (and still have a MoI case stored elsewhere that I planned to post day 3, but became useless when he died which if you want to see I can post).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

AP look at the wagon your on. You're with grey and NS. How confident does that make you feel?

UNVOTE: GreyVOTE: NS (lack of traction on GI, but both work fine)

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

UNVOTE:

Ok. NS is going to die.

I want PM replaced during the day. His prod status has to elapse first. We'll just wait it out right now do he gets replaced.

[Soul2277]

Over soul unvoted by the way

OS

[Soul2277]

How did he 180? He's gradually changed with the only flips because of a flip (which was really on me). Saying it's bad for him to flip on me is dumb when so several people did because of shah's flip (or at least partly because of shah's flip). Piggy who are your other suspects?

AP don't be dense. All the thumbs down is probably his way of saying scum reads. You've gotten painfully annoying to talk to when we agree on some scum reads, but you won't vote grey (you even said power lynch him). Although I think you're town the stubbornness you have is a pain.

And no I didn't talk myself into being scum. I explained why that kill is stupid from my point of view as well (since I probably would have pushed for his lynch if he was alive and it'd made me continue to suspect voided).

And if for a strange reason anyone plans to hammer remember to give time for people to say things. Anymore dumb hammers and there will be rage.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Piggy who are your other suspects?

This question continues to apply.

P-edit: While I agree you're obvtown, I disagree you and piggy are the only two (I'd call sala one and think the wagon him is bad as well as voided and myself).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Could you vote NS then (or grey although I won't help you on voided)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Sure of what? NS or you dying today is a yes. Getting one of you set to be lynched now then waiting works over waiting then getting one of you lynched. NS currently has 2 votes, I'm willing to vote again once pm is replaced. That leaves two other votes NS needs to get that I want on him.

P-edit: Grey I'm curious where you're going to get the 5 votes to lynch me (only you and ns really care for my blood).

And PM who do you suspect (and vote)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I just realized I can't look at things properly. Piggy's vote lands NS at L-1 and I still have my vote. I'll hammer later (I want to see if my partner has anything to add). And PM isn't going to be replaced like this either by the looks of it so that desire is gone.

If there's any last things to say then say them soon. I'll probably wait about 12-16 hours before hammering though to give some time to everyone.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Grey I can feel the terror. I will die.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Vague words mean so much (I do love the last ditch attempt of a counter wagon). I've pretty much pushed NS most today, so yes I naturally want to hammer him. At the same time I like giving everyone a bit of time before the days ends if they have something they want to add (and I lack desire to wait 5 days for pm to maybe replaced when it looks like he'll answer to prods quickly).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

NS what's your read on grey? Is it town or is it null (considering you lack desire to vote him)?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

It's the truth. Would you rather I lie? In fact there's also a voided case typed up from last night that was decided to not be used when we changed reads on him. You asked me about how the kill affects me so of course I'll answer (unless you'd rather I dodge the question).

Sala we are not lynching PM today. Go back to NS. This is lylo-1 most likely so it's not time be policy lynching.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And what Ate? A tiny bit based on small comments. Or is it the fact me killing moi would be dumb when I could have pushed for his lynch (I consider that logic not emotion and if true that's a dumb thing to apply it to).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I'm referring to a second voided case that was never posted before. Since you're bugging so much about them here they are (we don't believe them anymore though):

Spoiler: other cases

Case on MoI

Responding to MoI here, again at night so unable to quote. I have numbered MoI's arguments towards us.

MoI's quote strip gives us a lot to respond to. His posts are quite filled with sniping comments really only designed to undermine us rather than probe us.

1. I am not playing up the multiple card slip. *You* did. I said that slip was insignificant, but you felt that it was actually more important. While I see that it was not your "main" point about Shotgun, using loaded terminology such as slip is very convincing to outsiders that may or may not necessarily agree with your main point. That was my point.

When you are trying to sell something, adding in something small that is not really useful (in this case saying that this was a slip) could push people over the edge in your favor.

2.
Just to be quick because I am running out the door, but what is this MoI?

Is this meta?

Also, saying the word slip is a loaded word. Just like calling a girl who dates a lot of guys a whore is a loaded term... it doesn't really get into the matter of the subject.

3.
And about Abarat comment and slander, that wasn't slander, that was to make you go and post there. The comments I am making about it have nothing to do with your alignment and everything to do with character out of the game that I think you are carrying over into this game.

4.
It isn't distancing. It is the truth of what occurred. Short of giving you our google doc for you to look at I can't prove it other than Mehdi's comment about AP being misguided at best and scum at worst. Our preference for Voided scum is clearly well documented so I don't understand why you are arguing this point.

5.
Except for the fact that I am not willing to break that meta?

Have you played with people who are "guaranteed" to be town in any CYS games?

Well.. ya I am one of them. Hate to break it to you but this is basically my version of redtext of truth and NS's weird hammer thing he used to do.

6.
MoI you seriously do not believe that do you? Your title revolves around your danger to scum.
My signature as scum is race to the bottom style kills if no PR is readily available to shoot. This is well documented.
I was not commenting on your play here at that time by the way.

7.
Calling us scum doesn't excuse you from communicating with us. You're not infallible MoI and that is pretty antitown that you won't engage with me.

8.
Votes really aren't the most important thing a town person should do in my opinion. Age old ms saying "voting is only half the battle, convicning is the other half"?

I can vote anytime I want and it takes no effort. Convincing others takes a lot of effort and I have to actively work to get that done. That is why a vote can always wait.

9.
This is the type of double standard that I kenw yo uwould hold the slot to where you said "well now I have to avoid hydra dissonance" when you would just as easily say "hydra dissnoance scuM!"

I only have one vote and I am voting Voided. You already made a comment saying that we didn't vote Voided yesterday and now you are angry that we are? and not voting you? Okay.

I asked you the question. I didn't say you said this there is literally a question mark in that sentence MoI. And I asked it rhetorically because you keep saying we are scum with these comments that imply 100% certainty like the scumclaim comment at the beginning of the day and saying yo uwon't answer me because you don't talk to scum.

10.

You used this logic against Gunny yetserday in regards to the flip. I am willing to let that slide since it is possibly a reading/understanding error on multiple peopel's part and it is a game mechanic so not really much to interpret there.

However, you make it seem as if only your opinion is correct about Voided and that specific situation. Are you really saying that?

11.
That is partially my fault. I was mostly interested in your comment about calling us scum for what we said about Gunny before he flipped. I wanted to see if you were going to continue down that line of thought. And you did.

GI was definitely teasing and I admitted that.

MoI's vote on Shah

Given you had no real read on Shah (your own words), why did you vote her at this point?
It is yet again another reasonless vote simply for the sake of a vote.

MoI just want mislynches just like NS.


-----

Case on Voided

Voided's Vote of Shah

What was your reason for voting Shah? You explicitly went against your own statement that you dislike posts that do not have a reason attached to them.

Voided's next post is interesting because he engages with both NS and MoI. Voided is conciliatory towards us asking for our help in determining MoI's alignment because he is unable to tell the difference between MoI's town play in a game that Voided was not in and MoI's scumplay in a game that *I* was not in.

I believe his "wut" response is apt here. That does not really make sense and we are curious why you made reference to those two specific games given the lack of relation for the two of us (Voided and Oversoul).

Why were you not upset with NS's vote? There is no reason there.

Response to Shah's claim Why do you care? Given how loose people are with their vote this game, that was a legitimate fear.

This post looks like fake anger.

[Soul2277]

The above and this post are both my mehdi.

[Soul2277]

I'm full of it for saying the truth. Still haven't really responded to 938 and 939. Sala you need to show up as well and swap back to NS (you have a town read on us, so trust us).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Except he's not for a soul lynch and I think two pages ago called us a town read.

P-edit: The entire theory like repeatedly stated is based primarily on scum reads. I'd rather lynch strong scum reads that fit the theory (like GI and NS) before weaker scum reads that fit a pattern (PM).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

If you mean he lurks a lot as scum (which post count wise this and open 450 are about equal in similar stages of the game except this one was a lot longer page wise) then can you show that he doesn't lurk as town as much. If this wasn't lylo-1 with 3 scum alive and he pulled that I would consider policy lynching him more, but now when we only have one mislynch with all of the scum alive I'd rather lynch who I think is most likely scum.

And NS still would be a much better lynch.

He's made it to L-1 twice but hasn't died.

If he was town one scum could have easily hammered him there or more scum could have just got on the wagon making it take less town to finish it. The fact a lot of people suspect him, but he won't die means something. A wagon on town goes through more easily while a wagon on scum is a lot harder to get pushed through. Sala if NS flips scum I'll help you lynch PM. Now though I won't help.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And that time needed for everyone to comment has pretty much passed. VOTE: NS That lands him back at L-1 for the third time now.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

You've never played with me when I was scum. Only time we've played together I was town.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And what is your read on NS anyway? I don't think you've even given one on him yet he's been one of the main wagons all day (unless asking him if he's scum counts, which I'm not sure what read that means considering it lacks any real push afterward).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

My logic is NS has been at L-1 three times. PM has only started being pushed now. There's a fairly big difference there. Changing my logic is naturally going to change the result.

Asking about the hammer when you know the answer is pointless.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And continuing on I flailed how? If it's the kill spec and the case thing I've already answered that even if you won't answer back.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Reverse it and I'd agree and help you. I can promise my vote on PM if NS flips scum.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

*Wants a handshake*

*Shake hands back*

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And my vote on pm is yours now. One of the hardest lynches to push through I've gotten.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Yes from me. Pretty sure voided will be fine with it, AP was voting PM today so I'll guess he'll agree. GI and Piggy maybe (don't know whether they're likely to agree or not). Me, you, voided, and AP should be enough though.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

It is how I'll be laughing at you for complaining when NS will flip scum.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Do you really think there are THREE scum considering A. Jester (weakens town by guaranteeing a mislynch) B. Town lovers (weakens town by hastening town deaths) C. Post restrictions (weakens town by hindering communication) and D. NO OTHER TOWN PRs?

We should be thinking about worst case scenario anyway to safeguard ourselves.

For all intents and purposes consider this day as 4:2 and therefore Mislynch or lose.

Who was the random user reading the Card Spread at 12:04 AM (EST) on Monday?

Going for a Policy Lynch on PM is not in our best interest.

[Soul2277]

^ OS

~ OS

[Soul2277]

PLs are stupid anyway. Anyone taking a look at NS's play can tell PM isn't his buddy.

How are you coming to this conclusion? He made 2 comments about PM.

[Soul2277]

FYI, please do not soft claim or claim today in the event we do no lynch.

[Soul2277]

Who was the random user reading the Card Spread at 12:04 AM (EST) on Monday?

Might've been me. I still have that up on a tab. (Btw you need to update that)

I can't, only Mehdi can.

We need to discuss things though.

Anyone have any opinions on AP being the nightkill target?

[Soul2277]

AP, for shame for hinting at a power role or non vanilla role when you are a lover :\

[Soul2277]

Sal, PLs on MyLo days are just as bad as leaving him to LyLo and if we are wrong we never get to LyLo.

For that reason I have to ask, is your vote based on role related information?

[Soul2277]

All posts do far have been made by OS

[Soul2277]

Kj you're not including the card mechanic in your balance. While it hasn't seemed to help much (and I don't think it's even likely in multiple games for a single four of a kind to ever appear) I'm guessing Sc thought it'd have a bigger effect (and I think normally by now at least some card power should be ready or have been used). If we mass claim then it's fully (as in all cards as well). I'll wait on OS to reply to me before I finish my thoughts.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

It still helps town more then scum. All those info roles scum could barely care for, unless we have a vig doc is useless to them, which only leaves one hand that's decent to scum (jailkeeper for roleblocking which we might not even have any roles they can role block as well).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

KJ how would you feel about a mass claim today?

[Soul2277]

I see you lurking, KJ

[Soul2277]

FAIL

Didn't see you had claimed already.

Kj, who are your suspects?

[Soul2277]

A. If it's mountainous no loss to claiming.
B. Any info is good now.
C. We can control kj's protect to be on any prs that claim.
D. Knowing that would mean we actually have a decent chance of being 2 scum. I just don't think we have 0 town prs (and one scum power is known which is card removal since I doubt that's a mechanic that just targets a single player).
E. It's not just a role claim, but a card one as well which syncing things together can be useful too.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

If there's a pattern, Voided is scum. If there's no pattern, one of Piggy/Sally is scum.

PM looks like a VT from the mountainous speculation and Soul has been playing like a VT. I'm going through my trusty, dusty probability calculator to show why it's wrong to assume the card system makes up for lack of town PR.

PEDIT: Seriously, I leave tabs open when I do shit. I'm tired of people thinking that 'lurking' means anything. A real lurker wouldn't leave their account signed in.

Just humor me

Do you keep your account logged in? Like do you click on that little box at the beginning?

And we are fine with claiming if everyone else is

talk to you later, I leave you in Mehdi's hands

[Soul2277]

Pm has to be a vt or mafia for the spec to make any sense so that's one claim down. Popcorn claiming works (don't feel like waiting for pm's next rare appearance so kj can you start?). Remember I want claims to be with all cards revealed (which pm needs to do I just don't want to have the mass claim stall for a while).

Pm - vanilla (claim your cards when you appear again)

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

And who do you popcorn to?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

It depends partly on what happens with the rest of the claiming. I just still don't think it's pure vanilla or just roles that are detrimental to the town. Although a theory I had just died.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Follower

If we have 0 or 1 prs then it is likely this is a game with 2 mafia which means a follower is like a cop report (it can find out if a player used a kill action). Follower just checks the kind of action a player did so anyone who does no action during a night with a kill is clear (if we only have two mafia alive) and someone who did a kill would naturally be scum.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

*Shows cards x, y, z, and w*
*Points at player v*

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

*Points at player v*

For who do you want to popcorn next (only people left are me and piggy).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

3-shot doctor. Two protects have been used. N2 was AP. N3 was voided. As for why AP looked obv town at the end of day 2 much more so then anyone else. Day 3 voided was suspected a lot less plus we thought the fact AP was pushing on us and sala would be a reason to keep him alive. Third protect left.

Cards are joker and 8 of diamonds.

Pretty sure set up is two scum assuming piggy is another vanilla. If piggy doesn't have a pair or anything that works fine since I do have a plan for how things can go with every possible night kill. The plan would make a likely town win if everyone is fine betting that sala and voided are both town (if one is scum the plan would end up causing a loss, but I'm confident enough read wise to take that bet). Worst case scenario would be 3 potential scum with two mislynches (under the assumption sala/voided are town).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Mod: If a player takes multiple actions and a follower targets them do they see all actions they did or only a specific one (if only one if they used an investigative and kill action then which would be seen).

After I have that confirmed I'll write things (I screwed up and forgot sala has a follower which just helps). Currently we have 4 night actions. Me and kj can protect one player once. PM and sala both have a follower power. Considering we only have one scum with 0 vig shots anyone who uses a kill action is scum so follower is like a cop right now. With the low town power I doubt scum really have any more pr actions to mess with things so I mainly want to know what would a follower would recieve if a player used a card ability and a night kill at the same time.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

As in you are going to make one, or Mehdi's?

I have to discuss things a little more with Mehdi but I think we're good To go.

[Soul2277]

I have a plan done already that should work well even if it's simple. I'm currently waiting on OS to comment on it before posting it. Til then well guess we'll have to wait.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

If they no kill then they give us time to get more card powers which just increases our chances of winning.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

I'll say right now anyone who doesn't do their action will die (unless they have an innocent on them). I already checked, but if you have a card power it is allowed to spend them during the day and have their effect be done at night (ex: Spend a pair right now and say you want to follow pm at night and it'd work so you have 3 days to use your power). Plan will be followed.

Sala on pm, pm on sala, kj on sala, and I'm on pm

(which is very slightly modified from the last plan just because of personal desire, but works the exact same).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Well sala and pm should be clear on their targets. As long as kj understands he's targeting sala things work fine.

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

VOTE: no lynch

~ OS