Marketplace Mafia II - Game Over

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Given that scum are split into two factions with no night-kill but also unable to kill each other through the auctioned night-kill

I'm thinking we're likely dealing with scum-teams size wise of either 3-2 or 3-3

. All of the lower possibilities such as 2-2, 2-1 and 1-1 would be too town sided and anything like 4-3 or 4-4 and more would be too scum sided. Biggest thing it means though is that interaction-scum-reading is going to be a lot more difficult this game due to scum not knowing all other scum, similarly mafia having day talk means they're going to be able to organize their bidding really well inside individual factions and the only way we can attempt to counter this is by putting in place some firm rules about how we're dealing with items.

I think the most important thing for all of us to agree upon is that

negative-utility items like Investigation Immunity, Extra Vote, Governor and such need to be claimed publicly and used as early of as possible

, once the risk and threat of them are gone we're fine to go whereas if scum win them and we don't know they have control of it lylo could be brought up a day and cop could be rendered less effective.

I'd suggest that

advertising be kept to a minimum

, it's a waste of money for the most part early game and we're going to need all funds possible. With that in mind if you're not using all or even part of your money I'd

recommend investing it or alternatively transferring the funds to a strong town read of yours

, if we can pool up money somewhere we might have a legitimate shot at beating scum to the night kill or role-blocker at one night or at least forcing them to use a larger portion of their funds on it, either way it'd be a win win for us.

---

On that note

we won governor

and will burn it off later today. We're both fairly sure that scum were hesitant to send in early bids during the night and think they'd have instead have spent the first 48ish hours planning out their bidding strategy which means the early bidders that there were on Extra Vote and Neighbourizer are very probably town. What I'm not understanding right now though is Night-Kill only going for $31. I really cannot fathom that at all.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

BBMollas miller claim is him trolling, nothing else to it. It's not alignment indicative.

I'm guessing at least one of you played this before. Would it be correct to assume that scum has access to more money then town? Not as a whole but rather that each scum gets a bigger chunk of the pie then each town?

Mafia started with $150 rather than a $100 like town. They also got $125 at the end of days rather than towns $50. They didn't get any efficiency bonus though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Last game there wasn't any roles other than VT (Entrepreneur). It'll be the case again this game. The OP states that abilities are only from auctions.

Fairly sure that Mehdi/SlumberBoys/Salam are town at the moment. And no, we're not quick lynching.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Discussion on miller claim needs to end, it's just going to clutter up the thread and if this turns into a 10-page debacle it's going to lead towards people being reluctant to actually read through the thread. So please cut it out and here, read from the OP stating that abilities are from auctions, not given out as roles:

1. Abilities are the powers that can be won from the

auctions in the marketplace

.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

whats do you suggest we talk about then gentle,, we go back to rvs? fuck that im talking about molla being a piece of shit.

We could discuss if it's beneficial for anyone else (Other than negative utility roles) to claim today or if it's worth attempting to pool funds on a particular player, order doctor to be on them and have them bid and win night kill tonight. Or alternatively we could just not spam the thread up.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We held of posting as long as we can but no, this is just getting stupid. Empires constructing our reads at the moment but VM is literally near confirmed-town, he's never getting lynched or vigged or anything of the sort. Also there's a very good chance that Tammy is scum here, not getting where Matt's town-read on her comes from, her attitude this game is massively different to her town being voted attitude, we'll point it all out in a few minutes but Post 109 is a logical fallacy in it's own.

Seanald is probably scum as well, Empire pointed it out from his first post to me but didn't see anything there but since then his posts have been god awful and his turn-around to unvoting Tammy with 'seen her do that before' means that his original vote on her makes no sense and the lack of posting of the game link points to it all being fake and bullshit. But again we'll point it all out much more clearly in a few minutes.

Also I was in the entirety of the last game, I just replaced out and into it with a hydra with Slaxx.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also GreyICE, the plan of roleblocker claiming to have night-kill directed is nonsensical, explain to me what your thought process was when suggesting it. We can direct the night-kill if town have it by doing a vig-vote without having roleblocker need to claim in the first place.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We'll explain the town-read on VM in a few minutes, Empires being slow putting it all together (He's a noob like that). And you wanted us to refrain from posting so you could reaction-test without us ruining it. We were going to hold of posting until about page 8ish and then come in with a shitload of reads but the concept of VM being suspected and potentially vigged was too stupid to stand back during.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

TOWN (Strongest to Weakest):

Voided's

claimage and action of bidding $15 on the night-kill alongside with his reasoning behind it is incredibly town-motivated and genuine. I don't see scum just decided on putting $15 which is such a meager amount on night-kill which is massively important to them and I don't see him lying about something such as this. His reaction towards Mollas miller claim and continuation of it in Post 83 is very genuine and was pretty much my thoughts exactly when I read Mollas post there.

Every time

Mehdi

posts, we feel more and more strongly that he’s town. His first post of the game is awesome, mirroring our thought process re: claiming and fund pooling #53. His reasoning for voting Tammy in #68 and #70 (for filler posting extending RVS and reaction to Matt’s push) is very solid and shows a town thought process. His stance on BBmolla in #85 and meta-reference in #95 supporting it is extremely genuine.

SlumberPartyBois

initial case on BBmolla (#15) and segue into the strong Tammy (#40, 41, 45) push reads as organic especially when backed by Kanye’s cheerleading in #16. Even though we disagree with the strong townread on Tammy, the shift onto Seanald and case on him in #100 is extremely awesome and basically articulates what we were thinking regarding his posts.

Sala's

inital meta-mention of miller-claims reads as a town-tell, know the feeling of being cursed by something one time and wanting to prevent it from repeating. His double-voter purchase alongside with his reasoning of "Wanted to have more power, an extra vote!" is very genuine and very much what I can understand coming from him and as scum I think his partners would tell him not to waste funds on it or at least not to waste money and then outright claim it. His posts don't come across as if he's holding anything back at all which is a massive town-tell.

Greygnarl

is an admittedly a weak read, but #25 reads like he’s really frustrated and upset by BBmolla’s miller claim (“BB just fucked the thread by doing somethin very untown. If he says he was joking then fuck him. Suspicion will remain and the WIFOM will be endless.”)

Scum (Strongest to Weakest):

Tammy’s

reaction to the Bois’ push was bad, instead of actually attempting to contribute and state reads and thoughts on

anyone

in the game she focuses on repeating that Matt can't read her and is bad which is just de-crediting him and nothing more. Her continuation of this even in Post 87 pretty much contradicts her current stance of "I knew the lynch was never going to go through, they never do". Her "Mollas town for reading me as scum, I wish he could read me right" stance in Post 109 is a logical fallacy, she's stating that if he were to read her as town he'd be scum but she's stating she wants him to read her as town when he's town. It's not a line of logic that flows at all and just comes across as buddying. Her reaction towards my scum-read of her is worse even so, she's stating that she's intentionally not played to her normal town-meta and is annoyed that I have a scum-read on her for not playing to her town-meta, again another line of thinking that makes no sense whatsoever and her insult of 'regfork' is just an attempt to appeal to emotion, it was a nickname I was called after mslynching in a game. The fact that she's yet to state a single read (No town or scum read) as well as make no mention whatsoever of if she thinks Matt is town or scum pushing on her doesn't come across as her being town at all, not just that but her question towards Sala looks like her setting up a potential opportunity to move to vote him at a time when GI was trying to lead on him.

Seanald’s

entry into the game (#73) has him hopping onto the Tammy wagon on hollow logic (“Stop the self meta WTF?”) while simultaneously trying to discredit Sala. His unvote on #92 while trying to lead into a Molla switch is incredibly awkward. His reasoning for pulling the vote back in #97 makes no sense either as there is nothing that happened in the game state that would make him switch away – if he’s seen her do it as town before, he wouldn’t have voted her in the first place.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Scum control roleblocker means NK doesn't go off unless they want it to? NK doesn't go off and RB is claimed at least we can sort things out with hangings.

Scum know which townie has the NK how?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also since I forgot earlier.

Vote: Tammy

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Thanks for stealing my thunder, Regfan.

(PS: All the lazy paragraphs without links are mine.)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

As far as I'm concerned, GreyICE is TBD.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

So you're calling me scum, then progressing to say my vote is 'bad'. You continue to make zero sense whatsoever.

Did I think that Matt thought he had a scum read he would let go and push for all it's worth? Absolutely. Was I irritate that someone was acting like they could read me whe they couldn't? Absolutely. Was i also at the same time confident thay the people who knew how to read me would? Absolutley. Do I also have faith in my ability, as town, to prove myself as town? Absolutely. There is o me intentionally subverting my town meta. I don't flip out early day one most days. You can reference the start of mafia behind the maiden to see that's actually true. I didn't start acting like a lunatic until the wagon actually looked like it we going to go through. But, thanks a lot for acting like I can't actually work on my playstyle and attempt to remove some of the more annoying and anti-town aspects.

It's not exactly that you 'didn't act like a lunatic' that makes you scum at all, it's differently entirely. It's the fact that I cannot follow anything you're doing, you're reaction towards MattP was de-crediting him and insulting him and sure if you're annoyed that he thinks he can read you that's fair enough but the extent that you went to stating to BB that you're the lynch today and he has a free day because of you points you legitimately believing that you're going to get lynched which contradicts with you stating you knew you weren't going to get lynched from that wagon.

As far as regfork being an insult and an ate, you couldn't be farther from the truth. It was just a bit of a joke from when faraday called you that in GvE when you called him scum. And since when would ate be a scum tell from me anyway?

Regfork was an insult that Mina spammed at me inside a westeroes game graveyard where I mslynched twice(?) in a row. And AtE is a scum-tell as you can easily change the read by, you know, scumhunting, something you haven't done at all yet. If you legitimately think I can read you correctly (And I think I've read you right every game we've played albeit it was a weak read in the Scummies game) then you'd be confident in changing my mind by acting naturally, not by insulting me.

You actually lied within your post because I called BB town and you reference it. My read on BB flows one hundred percent logical. In both of the games in which he was scum and I was town, he gave me strong town reads without question. But he sometimes calls me scum when he's town to get a read on me. So where's your logical fallacy. I'm soaking from experience absolutely 100%.

Will give you that you have stated a read on Molla. The reasoning behind the read isn't the logical fallacy. The logical fallacy is what is followed after it, the "You used to be able to read me!" if he could read you in the past then him instantly reading you correctly wouldn't make him scum like you'd said it would have in your post.

What are you talking about with GI and Sala? He didn't even mention Sala? Are you now saying I'm it allowed to ask someone a question to get a read on them? Because seriously...no seriously? As far as the Matt read...I haven't decided yet. Are you serious that I was supposed to make grand declarations? I love how you pull out my meta, but fail to even acknowledge that I'm a) not the most transparent player in the world and b) often take my time with things.

In Post 48 GreyICE votes Sala stating it's not random and it's a serious vote, in Post 59 you ask Sala the question, the question is an incredibly useless one that doesn't lead to any real information being gained but his answer can be construed to look like a scum-tell so the question there comes across as setting up an opportunity to join the alternate wagon/lynch that might go through during the day. And no, I don't expect 'grand declarations' but I expect a thought-process that shows me that you're actually thinking about reads in some sort of depth or that you're scumhunting, I haven't seen that at all. And A) is probably true but at the same time Empire and I were talking about you being a free-town-read if you were town this game and we're not seeing anything that points to it being the case at all and B) is something that I'd probably argue isn't true but I'd have to re-look at your meta.

PEdit: Voided, I was in a hydra called odysess? Or something, we were inside a neighbourhood QT together. And it doesn't make you conf but a strong read.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

1/2. I've seen you be illogical before but even when I find you being emotional and illogical I've been able to follow your thought process to how and why you were reacting to things the way you were, here I can't. I really really can't. And ScumYou knowing that I can read you wouldn't have a choice but to hope for the best and think you can attempt to manipulate me into being off my game or alternatively push back onto me and you're doing both right now.

3. Faraday said it to troll Mina because she used that as an insult against me a lot. It's not a flattering nickname at all. Curious: What AtE are you saying I've 'used'.

4/5. Understanding most of your 4) now, still find it an awkward phrasing but not anywhere near as strong as I thought it was before. About 5) The question isn't really valid, the answer he's going to give is pretty much always going to be "Because I wanted to know his read on me" which isn't super alignment related but

is

something that can be construed as a scum-tell by saying "Oh feels so nervous because of asking question" when in truth it's really not a scum-tell at all but closer to a player-style-tell. The question has no meat to it and you're strong enough as town to know that much which is why it looks like setting up.

I've never seen you have zero or little reads as town early game, I re-looked at Behind The Maiden and you had thoughts and reads there. I'll go through a few more of your games again later but the other few I pulled up you replaced into making the RVS ect. discussion useless in them.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually think Stefans "Coming from QT" is much more likely him being town than scum, don't think he'd ever consider actually saying something like that as mafia whereas as town he'd be more lax about it and the QT he's referring to is very clearly the QT where bids and items are done by Magua, we turned out hydra QT into the very thing and I'm going to take a punt and guess that scum are actually using their normal QT as their topic thus not needing an extra. Empire says he's done a lot of meta research into Pere in the past and I've done a little and thus far his setup spec posts have been nice and detailed which match what we know of his town play, as scum he freezes up quite a bit more. Feeling like when a few more people post we should be able to PoE this fairly well.

I'm not seeing the scum-reads on GI and MoI, I dislike a lot of MoI's reads but I find them very standard what I know from him, he tends to gravitate towards suspecting weakerish players early in the game as town and his reads list matches that exact thing, not backing a day-vig on him at all, want to see him post a lot more and think he should be a lot easier to read then. And not fully seeing the scum-read on GI, finding him very null but know that Empire has some paranoia about him at the moment. I've seen him start early games fairly poorly as town before example being Micro 10 it usually takes him a few days for his reads to settle down as he's initially all over the place. His plan to have roleblocker claim is heavily flawed but he's exactly right about organization being needed in this setup if we want a real chance of actually winning any decent items consistently and using them beneficently. I'd second that I'd like to hear what his reasoning for what his Sala read was initially but not going back to it in a 20ish player game where new information is consistently added isn't much of a scum-tell.

MoI, we ended up spending quite a bit of time discussing extra vote / governor actually and we worked out that extra vote probably cannot bring up lylo unless there's an incredibly high number of mafia however governor can regardless of how many mafia there is. Governor being unable to self-govern is one thing but if scum were to govern a partner that was getting run up in lylo then we'd have to hunt elsewhere and thus it massively increases the chances that we'd lose at the point, it's why we decided it's better if we buy it and burn it early on to not to have to worry about it. Also re; Town-Read on Voided I don't think its' easy for someone to come in and blatantly lie about what they bid on right-of-the-bat, it comes across as super genuine.

Tammy since this wall-war is getting way out of hand I'll try and summarize my response to Post 155, Post 159 and Post 160. 1/2) I think your reaction to Matt was instinctual, you wanted to react quickly and I think as scum you wouldn't have many options but to hope for the best when stating 'someone else can read me better!' and pray that I misread you. Turn it on the flip side though, you're stating as mafia you'd do something different, what would your response be to Matt as scum? 3) Regfork is/was an insult, don't know if that's exactly what you were intending it to be but if you read the dead qt of that game Mina didn't use it 'jokingly' at all. 5) Some questions can lead towards relevant alignment determining information, others just lead towards player-style information, the question you directed to Sala is pretty much asking him why he's curious about peoples thoughts on him and if you've read a game or two of his he does a similar thing every game, it's not a tell for him and his response won't lead to anything real beneficial. 6) Yes, I don't remember any game where you've had 'no' or 'little' early game reads, if you can think of a few of the top of your head preferably on mafiascum and not westeroes then I'd really love for you to link me to them, you don't need to spend hours but I just need to know that you not attempting to scumhunt isn't a big scum-tell from you. 7) I don't fully understand what you're trying to say here, why didn't you jump on 'which' question? And the 'ask someone useless question' 'construe answer to be a scum-tell' is a highly common way of people moving onto wagons.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

You did not name Seanald.

I have a scum-read on Seanald, no issue with him being vig-shot whatsoever.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'd rather you withheld shooting for a bit longer if you're not planning on shooting Seanald. There's still too many players with little to no content here.

Sala, rushing for an extra $5-$10 is not worth it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

In summary I'm pretty much at the below right now, (?) marks mean need to discuss with Empire later today.

Town (S->W):

Voided, Mehdi, The Bois, Stefan, Sala, Pere, Molla, [Gap], Greygnarl, Guile (?).

Null:

Elmo, MoI, Phillammon, Pitty, GreyICE, Eidolon, Tazaro (?).

Scum (S->W):

Tammy (?), Seanald, [Gap], D3f3nd3r.

D3f3nd3r, if you thought Stefan had scumslipped why didn't you place down a vote on him?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

This makes me scratch my head. Why exactly should I expect ‘lots of players’ outside of scum and the Neighborizor ability (which I don’t think even can have been used at this point) to have QTs? If Grey / Gentlemen are to be believed the last game was effectively Vanilla. Not a lot of other reasons outside of the two groups I mentioned to have a QT. I’m curious why you thought that at all.

See you saying this makes me think that Matt might actually be right on you. Magua asked us for our QT link and stated he'd make one for us for the purposes of monitoring our bidding and funds rather than a series of PM's and I'm fairly sure he asked every player the same thing so is there a reason you don't have a QT?

Firstly – no … you are wrong. Scum governing a partner does nothing to move up LYLO. The Governor ability prevents a SINGLE player from not being lynched in a Day. The only way it could accelerate LYLO is if multiple scum possessed the Govern ability and cross-used it. And even then it would only accelerate it if every scum could be covered. Massively increasing the chances I think is a gross overstatement (especially since someone scummy being Governed means we have working connections to the rest of his team) and still does not make the statement in question correct. If you specifically discussed the "Extra Vote Can't" with your partner why was it posted in thread.

You're right that it doesn't "Bring up lylo" the post was actually made about half way through the night before we had all our discussions about extra vote ect. because we were bored as shit and wanting to get a head-start on the game. I do think if scum had governor later in the game though it'd be extremely dangerous and I don't think 'massively increasing chances' is that gross an overstatement at all, consider it being used in a 5 way lylo 2 v 3 instead of the odds of lynching scum being 2/5 it would become 1/4 and while connections can potentially be gained from it the difference isn't really made up. So while "Bringing lylo forward a day" might be wrong the fact they're harmful and best of being claimed isn't wrong. Also of your scum-reads list I'd consider Greynarl and Elmo as the weaker players.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Finished talking with Empire, not anywhere near as confident about Tammy-Scum anymore but want her to link me to a few games where she had little to no reads during the early stages of D1 as town and want some real content from her. He doesn't fully agree with Guile-Town too but that's a small thing.

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

We're happy with both D3f3nd3r and MoI vigging at the moment but it's best to defer it at least until the empty slots have posted something.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

People need to stop stealing my thunder when I actually want to post in this thread *glares at Kanye*

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hi MattP.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm not ready to end the day, there's a few more reads I want to get before the day ends. Right now though Piggys initial post and the reads inside it all come across as very natural and really the only thing that was holding us back from being fairly sure they were town from it was the mention of the mafia pm but their explanation makes sense behind it even though I think they're wrong on mafia being offered it. Annoyingly I'd say that Tazaro is probably town too although that's weaker.

in the first game did scum make group bids or personal bids. (that's probably answered somewhere...don't feel like looking right now.)

In the first game we sent in out bidding and auctioning via PM however mafia did so inside their mafia QT. Think instead this game Magua prefers everything inside a QT so it's very plausible and likely that all townies have been offered a QT and mafia continue on using their QTs. And bleh, the more you're posting the more and more I'm leaning towards my scum-read being wrong, your 'I didn't read the whole role PM and missed it and didn't realize the benefit of it until last night' comes across as genuine and Empires really liking your 1) point and says he followed along during Abarat and it holds weight.

First of, want to make it clear I

am

reading your posts, if anything I'm probably spending too much time reading and focusing on them. 1) I can actually very much understand a lot of this, will double-check the QTs you're talking about but remember you being somewhat reserved and cautious in Scummies at points. 5) We're not going to agree on this ever it seems, I continue to insist that the question leads to no real alignment determining answer. 6) I'll get to reading G v E later but the game only being '24 hours old' hasn't stopped us from getting reads at all, in fact I probably get the most reads during the whole game inside that period and don't see why anyone experienced cannot attempt to do the same. Either way please read the thread and provide some reads for me.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Two posts. 24 hours. No walls of text.


Idk why two posts this early put a target on my back.

It's not the quantity of your posts that's the problem. It's their content (or lack thereof).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

But basically, I can't help feeling like this is a policy lynch.

You haven't been reading the game, then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I would also like to point out that Seanald has not come back to this thread after being called out on his backpedalling re: Tammy despite posting quite a bit elsewhere.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Grey, I'm not seeing any aspect of your case on the bois holding any ground whatsoever, I think you're letting personally feelings get too involved into the game and aren't looking at things logically. His discussion with Tammy and his 'it's Tammeh time' was all an attempt at reaction testing her and getting a stronger read from it all, it's why he stated that he wanted me and you to refrain from posting during it so we don't ruin it, that's town motivated completely. Now him buying the day-kill crap isn't a scum-tell, I partially think it's true too and I'm not scum and there's a lot of other people considering it being real at the moment so that really is not a scum-tell in the slightest. Him wanting MoI and yourself vigged can be looked at two ways, the first is the way you're looking at it of "He wants to get rid of threats" the second is that he thinks you're scum and wants to get his scum-reads that are harder to lynch vigged so he doesn't have to fight and push through the lynches of it. The only way to judge if he's trying to remove threats or pushing on scum-reads is to judge his reasoning and I can see where his thought process is during the entirety of his cases. I'm very positive he's town, very. Both Kanyes and his thoughts have matched a lot of Empire and I have been discussing on AIM, his reads specifically his town reads match ours a lot and I very much can understand his entire play. So please slow down for a minute, take a step away and then come back to this game with a level head. Or at least talk it out with me in some more detail because I'm very confident you're wrong about them.

You are completley right in that we need more organization about who's going to be doing what and how we're going to deal with auctions, organization helped us destroy the scum last game and when it fell apart due to over-paranoia of everyone then you ran rampage but organization cannot happen until everyone turns up and whoever has oracle has claimed it. So in the meantime how about you discuss with me which of my town-reads you disagree or agree with and for the same of full disclosure what your vote on Sala was based around at the start of the game.

Also Mehdi, the biggest by far scum-tell of Seanald is the fact that he voted Tammy for using self-meta then unvoted her stating that he's seen her do it before as town and seen her act this way, if that was the case he wouldn't have voted her in the first place and the fact when it was requested for him to link the game he's talking about he vanished and never responded is massive, especially when he's extremely active elsewhere.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Reg he didn't say he voted her for her meta, but for using self-meta. Just because he called her town and scum for meta related things doesn't mean they contradict (self meta being disliked and then swap to thinking about her and unvoting). In fact him unvoting when she was still being suspected even if it was going down a bit is a town tell not a scum tell. I concede the point of his activity being scummy, but overall I think he's town still.

I'm not following at all, if his issue and the main reason behind the vote at the first place was due to him finding self-meta scummy then he'd have instantly though of the fact that she's used it before (As town I'm guessing?) and therefore not placed a vote down on her however he did and then proceeded to backtrack with it. Also I looked at that micro (Albeit not in great detail, mainly skimmed reading yours and his posts) and I could see some actual thought process and effort put into the game from him, the entire 'Mehdi is town' 'Oh didn't expect him to unvote' was a different sort of attitude then what he's showed here so while I'm getting that you state that his scum and town meta are both 'scummy' or 'bad' I don't see how his play here matches his town-meta moreso than his scum-meta.

WHATS WITH ALL THESE READ LISTS I DONT UNDERSTAND

Think posting of reads lists is optimal play, it allows us to follow someones thought process and what they're thinking which means making is significantly easier to get a read on them and with there being 1-night kill a night maximum and it being possible for town to control it and not scum the downside of "Strong reads being NKed" is less of an issue. And while I understand where you're coming from with your point of "If mafia get town-read they'll become more confident" it actually is a good thing, mafia becoming confident are more likely to make slips and mistakes whereas if they're overly-cautious there's less of a chance of it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GB is grey still null to you?

We're conflicted at the moment, I have a weakish town-read on him at the moment, his play here really doesn't match what I know or remember of his scum meta, as scum he pushes weaker and easy targets. The Bois doesn't fit that sort of lynch-target at all and his aggression and suspicion really comes across as if it's based around personally hatred of the players that he's unable to pull apart from general play. I also find his constant spamming that organization is needed as a relatively decent town tell because scum would want to sew paranoia and chaos as it gives them more control over the auctions and wastes town funds. Empire has a weakish scum read on him though, he's saying that it's "based primarily on the characterization of the seanald wagon as a policy lynch when there's been strong cases presented in favor of him being scum and his push on the Bois is weak as hell mostly because "buying into BBmolla's" claim isn't scummy in the least and I feel like he mischaracterizes their position re: MoI and himself. It's moreso they feel that MoI and him are tough people to get lynched if scum and his theory that BBmolla is SK fakeclaiming miller is such a reach". But we're talking it over right now and I think he's starting to agree with me a little bit or at least I hope he is by now.

I honestly don't see him as town. I see him as being the hero who will lead the town to oblivion while no one suspects him. All of that hydra's posts are honestly shit.

I'm asking you at least to trust me that you're reading them incorrectly here, they're by far one of my strongest town-reads if not the strongest at the moment and I'd much rather you focus energy and time looking at other players and letting me know your thoughts on them.

---

If we don't get an oracle claim by the time that everyone has posted it might be beneficial to assign a few things for the upcoming auction without knowing what will be up there. That being if we have 2-3 people bid on negative utility items and then claim them tomorrow the likelihood that we'll have town vs town bidding raising that price to a crazy level will drop. At the same time we should have someone bidding on oracle throughout the game and claiming the information in their first post the next day, a volunteer for that would be worth it. Everyone else should either be making a shot at getting something like cop, doctor, night-kill, roleblocker or investing their money so they can win it in future nights. I don't think it's a good idea to advertise who's going to be bidding on night-kill or anything like that at this point as if scum have the current night-kill it'll just lead to someone winning it and dying.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Haha, Seanald quickly lurked this subforum and left.

God I love D1 obvscum lynches.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GreyICE, your Post 372 is about the gist of my suggestion though I'm not quite sure if we need to go into quite so much detail as investigative roles / defensive roles / killing roles as it's better to leave scum guessing on who holds those at the moment, willing to hear counterpoints to that but at bare minimum we should have players split into categories so that only one specific person is bidding on oracle and say two to three specific people are bidding on negative utility items.

Advertising isn't even partially useful unless we have oracle and the abilities from the next night already revealed otherwise it's possible to waste an advertisement on something that would already have been up for auction if I'm understanding it correctly. Something to be discussed tomorrow or later in the game anyway.

We're both heading to bed now (Despite being at opposing sides of the world somehow), please don't quick-lynch, there's still a lot to get done today.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

BBmolla, I fucking love you so much.

(I'm going to brag and say let it be known that I scumread MoI after his first post but Regfan was all like, "well it's normal for MoI to make weak pushes on the weaker players in the room". What a noob.)

(Also, stop voting BBmolla, GreyICE.)

P-Edit: lol Salamence. I want Seanald to hit the dead list and flip red as much as you do, but we really need to wait and see more content from the people who haven't posted as much.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Tazaro, yes, because he's bad at playing scum.

Now put your vote back on Seanald please.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Peregrine and Stefan, first off, you are assuming that MoI and Seanald are on the same team which is not necessarily true. Secondly, even if they are, it is perfectly within MoI's scum meta to turbo bus a weak player (see this game where he turbo busses the Godfather less than 5 pages into the game).

Mehdi, I'm not Regfan, but no. We both feel very strongly that he's scum. He's getting lynched today.

Despite all this, don't vote Seanald just yet. Let the wagon on him marinate a bit while we try to draw as much content from the thread as possible (Tammy, waiting on you especially). The efficiency bonus isn't worth it, so don't even bother.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Forgot to mention one other thing: Salamance, you need to check your assumptions. However, I do agree that VM and Stefan look even better as town after MoI's flip (still want to mull this over with Regfan a bit, though).

P-Edit: This dude isn't town. Don't get me wrong, Defender's a fine alternate wagon since his posts have been worthless, but my very soul screams with the desire to see Seanald flip red.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GreyICE, main reason that I had some belief behind Mollas claim was reviewing a game of Maguas in the past I think I remember him suggesting or putting a very very similar role in as town so it's not out-of-the-question to be legit. Plus from memory inside Plums large theme game there was a miller-mason-vig role so it's not an impossible sort of mix. Also lets say you're right and he's a SK or third party, his kill is claimed in-thread meaning we can literally control every kill he makes from hereon out or at least know that if a kill goes of on a town player that shouldn't be shot that he's non-town without a doubt. For now there's no reason whatsoever to lynch him. I'll make you a deal though, he goes well and trully before lylo if you help us hunt elsewhere.

The MoI-shot wasn't anywhere near luck, his manner of pushing on Stefan for 'Having a QT' made no sense whatsoever as town given that it's in all of our roles and he'd have instantly gone and double-checked as much, instead he continued playing that he didn't know what we were talking about. Not just that but he stated Guile was scum for asking the mod a question that would obviously never be answered and then proceeded to do the exact same thing himself.

(Empire, my AIM seems to be broken at the moment.)

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sala, I disagree with a few of your pointers, 1) Comes across as wrong, his comment on "X claim" can easily be him distancing pretending he doesn't have it, we can very much see him wanting and bidding highly on investigation immunity given he's a highly-targetted player. 2) I don't think his read on Elmo means anything whatsoever there. 4) I think you're looking into something that isn't there re; Him asking for your Bois read likely doesn't mean much more than him wanting to judge whether there's potential to get a wagon going on the Bois which if anything increases the odds of them being town. Not just that though but their entire reasoning behind the pushes are very natural, think you're just paranoid here.

Just a heads up, the discussion and argument that Pitty 'Scumslipped' is pretty much nullified by the fact that her Post 261 shows that she understands where the QT suggestion part is in the role PM and thus likely received it.

Stefan does have a point that D3f3nd3rs attempt at calling him 'scumslipping' over his QT mention in Post 179 shows him not knowing about the QT suggestion from Magua and thus increases the likelihood of being being scum massively. Combine that with his sheer lack of content and fluff posting and he's very much up there with Seanald in terms of scum-lynches. In fact when Empire gets back might talk with him about moving our vote there.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm going to clarify this now before someone goes "OMG! Piggy knows what the scum PM says?! Obvscum right there!" I mean that by the fact that it's in it's own separate space, not part of the rest of the role. Meaning it's not an alignment indicator, it's a PM indicator.

If all the town got the same PM (except our miller vig...?), and assuming all the scum got the same PM, the only one that wouldn't get something that everyone else has is TP, and if all MoI happens to be referring to is the sample PM on the first page (and I suppose scum could potentially not have that bit at the bottom as well, but that's really really unlikely, since that would give town a huge advantage and cause this whole mishap), well that would easily cause this slip up.

I think the bolded part explains her post fairly well.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Pere, lets say "it doesn't clear her" the fact that she knew the location of the QT suggestion means that her initial stance of 'It's in the scum and town PM' is understandable albeit very wrong in all likelihood making it not a 'slip' at all so if you want to view the whole thing that way it's a null-tell not a scum-tell.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Greygnarl, I'd happy forfeit $5-$10, heck I'd happily forfeit much more if it means having time to get stronger reads so there's no need to speed-rush the day at all.

Right now we're sitting at this, or at least I am:

Strong town reads:

BBMolla, The Bois, Voided, Mehdi, Stefan, Sala, Greygnarl.

Weaker town reads:

GreyICE, Pere, Tazaro, Pitty, Tammy (?).

Null reads:

Guile, Eidolon.

Weaker scum reads

: Phillammon, Elmo.

Strong scum reads:

Seanald, D3F3nder

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Mehdi, Phillamon has been online and is posting

a lot

elsewhere while having very little content here, his reads all up are very limited and his vote on MoI comes across as distancing somewhat. I remember following one of his scum games ages ago which had Faraday/Hito in it and he got caught for being far too active and thus contradicting himself due to it so can very much see him deciding to lessen activity as scum after it. Still a weak read compared to Seanald/Defender though.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Listen,

Defender case is that he is lurking. Seanald case actually has a LOT more to it, we can lynch Defender tomorrow, please vote Seanald today >.<

Matt, that's not even close to the case, if you're going to give GreyICE shit for not fully reading cases you can't do the same thing. The Defender case has to do with the fact that his posts contain little to no contain and mostly fluff posting as well as the fact that he thought Stefans QT post was a 'slip' which is literally the exact same thing we caught MoI for, he didn't even consider that it was the bidding QT offered to us and hasn't commented on it since.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@Stephan: Scumslip much?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Feeling like Eidolons not knowing what Molla has done probably means she's town, think as scum discussion about it would have happened in their scum QTs.

---

We need someone to volunteer to be the person that gets oracle tonight and we need four people to volunteer to bid on negative utility items. So lets make it:

Oracle bidder:
Extra voter bidder:
Governor bidder:
Investigation immunity bidder (Needs to be a town-read):
Alternative negative utility item bidder:

Put your name on one of the list and once we're done NO ONE other than the person stated next to the item should be bidding on that item. Everything else is fair go.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We don't know if the same items will go up again GB. That's why we need the Oracle.

Yes, and we don't have that at the moment it seems which is why 'alternative negative utility' is on the list to cover whatever wasn't up last night. Last game though there wasn't that big a list of possible items and there were a lot of repeats when it comes to auctions.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sala, unvote, don't give him a chance to self-hammer before we organize who is getting which of those abilities. Plus I want to see Tammys contentpost.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We don't have the night-kill. Also there's a bunch of people who have already claimed not to have it, best of making a table and filling it all in to save time.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@gb - was the offer to make a qt for you in the same place in the pm as the request for your hydra qt?

It was intially just a request for a QT to do bidding ect. in, Empire responded saying he has already made a hydra QT for us but was on his phone so didn't have link so I shipped of the link to Magutroll when I logged on. Also yes, I'd suggest investing.

I just noticed NK isn't on reg's list of roles we need to plan on buying which I think it should be. I'd want a town read having it or forcing scum to pay. P-edit: What was the point in claiming then? Well I'm confident matt is town so you're investigating without any trouble. And I want to vote on who you investigate.

NK doesn't so much work on a list because we'd need someone with maximum funds to do the bidding on it and if we put someone there who doesn't have enough money we've just fucked ourselves plus it gives scum a night kill target to prevent us holding and keeping nightkill. Also I vote on Phill or Guile or Elmo being investigated. Hate to admit it but Seanalds unprompted claim and reasoning behind it comes across as genuine.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Oracle isn't that helpful for scum at all, about the only way it helps them is that it doesn't let us plan as much and I don't think they'd waste $100+ on stopping that.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Even if they kill the NK buyer that just means we're making the game nightless which is great too (and they can only do that if they have the night kill). The night killer buyer would have to volunteer and say I have a lot of money.

The fact that no one has claimed NK means scum probably has it. So lets say scum has it now lets say two situations emerge tonight, the first being 1) A townie has enough money to stop mafia getting night-kill and the second being 2) Mafia will win night-kill no matter what. In situation #2 what we do regarding bidding and auction planning for night-kill won't affect who gets it but will save us a bit of money in that we'd have less town vs town bidding on it. In #1 if we outright state who's going to be bidding on it and mafia can't outbid them that person will get nightkilled so while 'night-less' is good it kills the advantage of having another town determined lynch/kill whereas if we don't blatantly state who's going to get it then mafia have to take a punt which means although we'll end up wasting some money on night kill when it comes to town vs town bidding we'll end up with someone being able to claim that they have it tomorrow.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Given last games N2ish auction items best of to add tracker/watcher to this. People need to add their name to something on the list, the faster organization about who's going to be doing what on this list happens the higher chance it is for more efficiency money. 2 hours 45 minutes from this post is when it ticks to another day.

Also think it's better if the investigation pool for Seanald isn't just 1 person big. I'd say having Guile / Phillamon / Elmo works.

Oracle bidder:

Sean

Extra voter bidder:
Governor bidder:
Investigation immunity bidder (Needs to be a town-read):
Alternative negative utility item bidder:
Tracker bidder:
Watcher bidder:

Gentlemen

[Gentlemen Bastards]

want to hear from greyice on our organization before we go through with the lynch since he was so vocal about it previously.

That's fair enough. Also talking with Empire now and he's not feeling as confident about Seanald-Scum either. Think it might be better just to leave him alive, let him use both investigations and then re-read him again, that way if we're lynching him and he flips town we get two reports that will be useful.

Also read Phillamon for us, the fact that he popped into the thread 11 minutes after I called him out for posting elsewhere but not here means he was probably following along the entire time without posting, plus his reads are very limited and his reasoning for his Defender vote is weird.

Elmo, you're not getting investigation immunity, we

want

you potentially investigated, there's a reason it says 'town-read' next to it.

And fucking LOL Defender.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

And reg how about telling a scummy player to spend all their money on the NK. If they're town scum will then be forced to choose between shooting a scummy player or let a town have the NK. If we can force scum to shoot the new vig that protects other roles like sean and it can be a way to direct the night kill on scummy players we'd have wanted to lynch.

I don't want a scum-read getting night-kill, don't trust them with it and they can easily just say 'was outbid' and lie.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Mehdi, I'm happy with majority of the playerlist having it, not a chance I'll accept Elmo or Phillamon and Guile taking it though. Preference would be one of The Bois, Voided, yourself, Greygnarl or Sala taking it but really anyone but the 3 stated above would be fine by me.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Hey, just wanted to relay a message/reminder from Regfan that we absolutely need to make sure the list is compiled before the day ends.

Also, fucking LOL at Elmo wanting Investigation Immunity as soon as he hears he might get copped. No way you're getting that, bud.

Tammy, I'm gonna dig into your recent posts in just a bit as I'm doing other stuff at the moment.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Who else do we need to hear from again? Want to make sure everyone's accounted for.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Dude, the efficiency bonus really isn't worth it. Coordinating our bids for the future + strength in our reads > whatever money we win if we just rush this through.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'd say keep it to yourself.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Elmo, why did you bid on Investigation Immunity?

I said that because I thought you were putting yourself on the list for the next night's bidding list (which is what Mehdi's list is for, not last night's winnings).

P-Edit: You're stealing my thunder too Tammy?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Pere, you should have claimed with these earlier, also oracle isn't up for auction tomorrow night?

---

We're filling this out today. Would have been better if Stefan didn't blatantly state he had full-funds and would be going for NK but at this point there's nothing to do about it. Once this list is complete

no one

other than the person whose name is next to the item should be bidding on the item.

Auction Investigator: Checks what that player won. x2 -
Blocker: Stops one player from voting another. x1 -
Banker: Checks to see how much money someone has. x2 -
Sixth Sense: Targets a player and if they die you get a QT with them. x3 --
Night-kill -

StefanB

MoNA: Cannot be tracked or watched x4 (Town-read)-
Sartor: Gives fake investigation results. x3 (Town-read) -
Follower: Tracker. x2 -
Stalker: Watcher -

Gentlemen Bastards

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Auction Investigator: Checks what that player won. x2 -

Tazaro

Blocker: Stops one player from voting another. x1 -
Banker: Checks to see how much money someone has. x2 -
Sixth Sense: Targets a player and if they die you get a QT with them. x3 --

Salamance

Night-kill -

StefanB

MoNA: Cannot be tracked or watched x4 (Town-read)-
Sartor: Gives fake investigation results. x3 (Town-read) -
Follower: Tracker. x2 -

Voidedmafia

Stalker: Watcher -

Gentlemen Bastards

Also everyone that isn't on the list

at all

should be mass-investing.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Pere, the difference in advertising isn't 'unlimited' just that losing advertising bids funds carry over to the next night:

Once an ability has won an Advertising auction, it cannot be advertised for the rest of the game.

And if we have two people on Banker would that work then?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Plan for the most part should work. While I think both Tazaro and Greygnarl I'd prefer it if Greygnarl received the transfer funds over Tazaro.

Eidolon should full-claim. Do believe that she truly cannot 'invest/advertise' ect. but think that's more likely to be a scum role since the OP states scum can 'share abilities' meaning they might not need investing and transferring as much, either way don't see much harm in her claiming at this point.

Guiles suggestion and Eidolons backing up of giving funds to fewer players is a horrible idea. Focused money on a specific few players just increases the likelihood of a bunch of our funds going missing in one night if one of those players die. It's much better to spread it over 8ish or so players than having it on 3-4.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

i'm the conspicious consumer. if any ability goes up for auction due to it being advertised, i get a free usage of that ability.

That's what GreyICE claimed last game as the SK..

[Gentlemen Bastards]

SK role PM last game:

Outside the System: You

may not use the Invest action (see Section IV), and you may not spend money on Advertising

(see Section V).
The Fruits of Their Labor: If the Day has an auction from Advertising (see Section V),

you will receive one usage of that ability automatically

. You may still win that auction as normal.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

SK had no wage last game as well. And yes, I think it's very plausible he's used a similar role for the SK this game as last given that there's no other real way to do anything with a SK in a game that has its only night kill in auctions.

Eidolon dies wayyy before lylo. If not sooner. Not losing to a SK again.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Slumber, Elilodon cannot transfer money so replace Pitty transferring funds to Tazaro to Pitty transferring funds to Stefan. Otherwise I agree.

Seanald, Elmo claimed investigation immunity so remove him from the pool. That leaves Guile / Phillamon.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GreyICE, it would be dumb if the pooling of funds were done to a small group of players. It's not the case here, it's to a rather large pool of players with them only receiving funds from one other person, that means at best scum can eliminate two peoples value worth of funds in a night by shooting inside the pool while still giving us a bunch of players with a great deal of funds for tomorrow nights auction. That means we should be able to secure N3s night kill and whatever else important auction items come up then.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Also we're transfering money onto scum, guaranteed.

Then tell me who you don't want receiving money and for what reason. Also want to know what you make of Eilodons claim.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yes, I do. But you don't need to update the list every second post. Just do it once a page.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GreyICE, StephanB is obvtown in the fact that he outted the QT debacle first, MoI accused him of scum-slipping, Stefan pointed out it made MoI confirmed scum and pushed on him and MoI flailed desperately in defence. Pere I'll agree is a weaker read but I think meta-wise he's playing to his town meta and I'm not too worried about him destroying the system even if he's scum. Also Eilodon claimed your role from last game. No investing/advertising. No base wage. 1-shot of advertised items.

Matt, I don't really share your scum-read on GI, he's probably one of my weaker town-reads at the moment but him being paranoid of this sort of plan fits what I know of him, don't think it's a super alignment-indicative sort of tell. I'd much rather focus on lynching Phillamon first (You should totally re-read him).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GB what do you think of philla's vote on MoI?

Looked very weak, came across more of distancing then him truly believing that MoI was scum.

Which means what, given the scumteams don't know eachother? Eidilon seriously claimed my role from the last game?

It means that Stefans whole actions are incredibly genuine. Lets say that there's two possible scenarios 1) Mafia did not get the QT element to their role PM, in this case Stefan instantly outting the QT element makes him town, also explains MoI's reaction and Stefans pushing on MoI and 2) Mafia did get the QT element, Stefan would have known that not having the QT element isn't a scum-slip as would have MoI and the whole thing wouldn't have happened. Plus Stefans push was very genuine. And yes, she claimed it with the name 'cospicious consumer' which was exactly what you fake-claimed. Also the way it came about was her saying she couldn't transfer to stick to the plan, then stating it's in her role, then claiming part of her role, then claiming another part. ISO her and laugh with us.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We still have to have this filled out, we'll double up and if Slumber, Pere, Tammy and Greygnarl all put their name next to something it should be full up.

Auction Investigator: Checks what that player won. x2 -

Tazaro

Blocker: Stops one player from voting another. x1 -

Gentlemen Bastards

Banker: Checks to see how much money someone has. x2 -
Sixth Sense: Targets a player and if they die you get a QT with them. x3 --

Salamance

Night-kill -

StefanB

MoNA: Cannot be tracked or watched x4 (Town-read)-
Sartor: Gives fake investigation results. x3 (Town-read) -
Follower: Tracker. x2 -
Stalker: Watcher -

Gentlemen Bastards

[Gentlemen Bastards]

BTW why is MoNa of any more importance than Banker?

If scum get MoNa then tracker and watcher are pretty much useless.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Voided, you're no longer bidding on tracker because you'll be transferring money. Speaking of which you need to claim how much you have.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It happened when The Bois put forward the proposal that we have people transfer money so that hopefully scums funds get drained in the process meaning we can win more auctions in the future. Plus it helps confirm how much money everyone currently has and will stop mafia bidding too highly tonight.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Matt, change the background colour on one of the accounts. Ever since I've done that I haven't had an issue when it comes to posting on the right account.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

You know what would own? If Elmo actually showed up in this thread and posted clear compliance with the plan.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not just VM.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Only have a minute because I'm not at home and using shitty wireless but I'm getting super cold feet about D3d3nd3r, while his early game, lack of scumhunting, fluff posting and 'scumslip much?' comment all point towards him being scum his last threeish or so posts all come across as genuine and Empire and I did some meta analysis into him earlier, he tends to post 'pity' last minute posts as town before lynched and he didn't do as such when he was scum. Empire can grab the links and point out the exact things I'm talking about when he sees this but long story short I actually want to consider lynching elsewhere today.

I'd happily lynch Phillamon, Eilodon potentially even Guile or Elmo and even GreyICE today. Know that Empire was still in the process of figuring it all but we think that GreyICEs money claim doesn't match up at all. He's claiming to have $90 with $10 lost on bids. So follow that through for a second, he says he threw down a bid on II to raise the price, II went for $46 so lets look at the most likely scenario which was that he was the bid for $45 that forced it to be sold for $46 therefore he'd lose $5 in that exchange. Now for him to have lost another $5 only he'd have to have bidded between $41 and $50 on something else but that makes no sense because why bid $46 on something and say $41-50 on another holding back $4-13. If his intention was to spend money bidding ect. he'd have bid it all and bidding it all doesn't work with his claim to bid on II and having $90 left, Empires pretty sure he's slipped somewhere in there.

Anyway there's a good chance I won't get internet again between now and end of the day so hopefully Empire can get in here and explain everything I'm talking about in much more detail but really bleh I don't confidently think Defender is flipping scum anymore.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'll grab them quickly. Scum Meta, Town Meta, Town Meta #2. Town reaction to getting lynched #1, Town reaction to getting lynched #2.

His reaction this game #1, #2.

Suggest you read that. Think he's very much reacting as he did as town in past games.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

D3d3nd3r, Phillamon is a lot more 'relaxed' in that game whereas here he seems a lot more reserved and mechanical. Plus his lack of content here makes no sense given what I see elsewhere (Feel free to do digging of your own, shouldn't take too long to look around anyway), long story short from what I gather he has been following this thread closely but not posting which is what scum with daytalk would do.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Alright, I'm off. Don't think I'll be getting internet again for 2ish days so hopefully Empire can explain whatever I didn't properly.

If you want my preference when it comes to alternative lynches though it's probably Phillamon > GreyICE (Unless he can explain how the numbers make any sense at all which I don't see happening) > Eilodon > Guile (Him stating that he fully invested isn't a town-tell since there's really nothing else he could state if this is the truth, all items have essentially been claimed other than NK which claiming with when stating you don't have it earlier is a scum claim, doctor and neighbourizer and stating he bid on something he didn't can potentially lead to him being cc'ed and caught) > Elmo.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Mechanical typing has nothing to do with it being a mechanical setup, none whatsoever, mechanical typing has to do with holding back and being unnatural. Getting a scum lynch is much more important than $5 efficiency bonus so if you agree and can see what I'm saying about Defender you'd think he's not mafia and not want to lynch him. Also lets see, in Post 486 I called you out for being online but not posting in the thread at 3:18PM, you responded in Post 492 stating 'sorry about being lurky games are going fast elsewhere' at 3:31PM, 13 minutes later. In Post 965 I call you out as a potential lynch and in Post 968 I point out your activity elsewhere again at 2:04PM, you respond in Post 973 with the 'sorry for lurking again' at 2:49PM 45 minutes later, so either you're saying that coincidentally both times your name has been brought up as a potential lynch or seen as scummy you've just happened to browse the thread and post? I don't buy it, not one time bit.

I'll start it if others are too shy:

Unvote, Vote: Phillamon

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Mehdi, I really can't work out what it is with you but you've got some sort of gut town read on Philla or something you need to drop. Instead look at him appearing when FoS'ed only, it's actually an incredibly strong scum-tell. In daytalk games scum generally follow the whole thread, talk with partners inside QT and try and only post when they have to so they can watch the votes and stay out of the way.

Also $5 for every town player is still a very worthy sacrifice for a scum lynch over a town lynch. Seriously look at Defenders meta responses to getting run up as town, it's to admit he's an idiot and a bad player and state that if they think the lynch is best ok, he's done the same thing this game. It's so genuine it hurts.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

We are not doing Phillamon.

Please for the love of god explain to me how I'm the only one seeing him being obvscum here and no one else is because it's getting frustrating. Also I don't think Magua 'adds up' to determine what the negative is but we did contemplate testing that tonight.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

If you need meta-proof that scum with day-talk do exactly what Phillamon is doing then Post Apocalyptic Mafia where Nicodemus and I were more active in the daytalk QT then the thread and bounced thoughts and 'can/should i post this' sort of things of each other there rather then the actual thread and Fantasy Camp Mafia where MoS, DH and I spent a lot of time observing the thread and there were some points where we followed every post, talked about them in the QT but never actually posted in the thread for days at a time.

Our loss was rounded up. But lets say a bid of $45 = $5 lost, shouldn't a bid of $55 = $6 lost by that logic thus $11 lost total? We didn't lose on two different things to see if Magua decided $45+55 = 100/10 = $10 not $11 but not seeing him doing that.

Ninjaed a lot, going to read them now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I'm not buying "Last second townieness". The plan must continue, we must lynch defender, transfer, and buy all the items. Anyone that doesn't follow this plan is confscum (added with all lurkers/fluffers, such as Eld, Elmo, etc.)

I'm not sticking with lynching Defender so feel free to throw me into your 'confscum' pile but his genuineness behind his reaction to getting lynched here is soooo town and it matches with what he's done as town before. Heck if I was more of a bastard and less of a gentlemen I'd govern him here but I won't. And sure some people might be 'good scum and able to fake genuineness' but do you really honestly truly believe that Defender is a 'good scum player' because I don't. Also his reads being 'terrible' isn't a tell, just means he can't scumhunt well, while wrong his thought process is somewhat follow-able with them too. His 'Phill was town in X game so I think he's town here" shows he's comparing previous play to now which is a pretty solid town-tell for a newer or weaker player. If you don't want to join me on Phill then give me another reasonable alternative Sala, because I'm not doing Defender now.

Pedit: I'll look at your meta while the internet is still running, when it goes down Empire will have to take over.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

GB, you have one game of scum meta that was his first game on site. It was before he'd even been town to know his own town play style. I'd think his playing style would change since then (my first game as scum I lurked a ton, but now I never lurk as either alignment). If you're going to use meta at least address this.

You have somewhat of a point, I honestly wish I could find more scum meta to compare it with but it seems he only has 1 completed scum game. With that said the fact that he's so-spot-on with what his town meta shows about his reaction means that he's very very probably town unless you think he's good enough as scum to fake mimicking that so well at a time when his lynch looked near certain and I highly doubt he's that good as scum.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Look if you want to 'lynch-fast' and are really that strongly against Phill for now we can do Elmo. His high bid on II and lurking both deserve death.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sala, it's not exactly his 'reads' that are townish, it's his attitude to being lynched.

We can stick with the entire plan and still lynch fast if we just have Defender replace Elmo where Elmo was in the transfer listing and lynch Elmo.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Read both the town games, you'll see when coming to a lynch his reaction is very very genuine and very similar to here.

Unvote, vote: Elmo

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Actually, we still have another 5 hours before we lose more money.

Anyway, fully catching up on the thread now. Only had a chance to read the more recent posts. Mehdi, Regfan wanted me to tell you that if you agree Defender's first reaction in this game matches his town meta reaction in all his other games, shouldn't that be enough to dissuade you? Furthermore, "trying not to die" isn't alignment indicative.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Matt, trust me, I really really want to do it, but not today.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Matt, I don't know if you checked it out yet, but take a look at the games Regfan posted earlier and check out his reactions. Dude might actually be town.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok just got caught up fully with the thread. Mehdi, I understand your point about people improving with time, but let's be honest here: Defender hasn't played very many games. I don't think he's really had much time to improve his scum play.

P-Edit: What the fuck? Was that the hammer?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

God fucking damn it, this guy better flip Left Hand scum like I originally expected him to or I will be fucking furious.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Matt, if you're there, at least read Regfan's posts regarding Phill and Elmo, they make a shitload of sense especially considering Phill's activity elsewhere.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Elmo's claims:

$46 (Won Investigation Immunity)
$31 (Lost Extra Vote - at most)
----
$50 (Left Over)

Hmmm...those numbers seem kind of weird to me. Someone help me crunch them?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Elmo, why did you bid $46 on Investigation Immunity?

[Gentlemen Bastards]

My objections have already been made. Matt seems to be out and no one else is willing to budge so I really don't know what else I can do.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Sigh...

I really really really hope this guy flips Left Hand like I thought at first and Reg/myself only got cold feet because of his AtE.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Interactions with MoI. I'll explain in more detail later but the fact that MoI's scumreads list contained a bunch of easy targets but not him points to it.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

And I don't think Phill's vote really means anything, regardless of the flip.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It doesn't fucking matter, if Sal has sent in his extra vote, he's lynched.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Well, we're pretty much at his mercy anyway since no one is going to do anything and he's really fucking desperate for his 5 bucks.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Yeah, let's do this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Phillammon