Micro 89 ~ Mafia Rarefaction Segunda (Game Over!)

[Konowa]

Vote: TwoUpstandingGentlemen

Because, Thor.

[Konowa]

Thor is already hard enough to read, being in a hydra just means we need to lynch him now so he can't be super unreadable.

[Konowa]

Lazy, Parama.

[Konowa]

unvote

Tierce, why so passive agressive with Leaf?

[Konowa]

I started this post wondering aloud why you [Tierce] switched your vote to TuG and didn't switch to Leaf. However, after turning it over in my head I think I may know why, at least the switch to TuG. I want to see some more before I say why though. The passive agressive comment came from gut. To me Leafs' reaction would be something I thought Tierce as town would run with. The lack of vote triggered that, I suppose. I know you can scumhunt still without a vote, but responses to Leaf seemed more substantial.

Vote: Aeris

Aeris, why is Leaf town?

[Konowa]

Aeris, I asked you because in 58 you gave reasoning for you two other reads. I wanted to see if you actually had a legit read on Leaf. Since you've come out and clarified that you aren't a newbie, I shouldn't have to say that "generating discussion" isn't really a town tell.

I didn't ask TuG because I think I'm starting to understand Thor a little bit better. Being a hydra isn't going to help, but I want to observe for a little before I interact with them.

[Konowa]

Beard.

Not fearsome.

[Konowa]

This was along my read.

[Konowa]

Not revealing reads isn't the same as hedging bets, which is what your 1 is saying, Leaf.

[Konowa]

Obv blatant prod dodge.

[Konowa]

I'm here. Sorry, didn't realize three days due to weekend. For those who don't know, don't expect posts in games from me from Friday to Tuesday. I have -some- time tonight, will try and get something out tonight, tomorrow by noon at the latest.

[Konowa]

The early dissonance between the heads in TuG, is actually what I was referring to in that post, Tierce. I was trying to see if it would continue, but as Thor appears to be the only head actually posting I can’t tell. As far as the passive aggressive statement, I feel like I already explained that. Yes, it leans more towards behavioral, but I was trying to figure out your motivation for –not- pursuing Leaf for something that I think Tierce as town would push.

The above being said, 257 by F-16 is scum. He starts off by saying that Tierce’s case is scum motivated, but then doesn’t address any aspects as to –why- it is scum motivated. He instead veers into behavioral analysis of Tierce, which is awful as it tries to pin Tierce into a corner thus preventing future analysis on her part.

unvote;
Vote: F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Aeris is likely town because of this.
Gut is saying TuG is other scum. The F-16/TuG interaction doesn't feel like it is genuine.

[Konowa]

unvote;

[Konowa]

Ere on the side of caution and all. Shouldn’t correct play be to leave him alive till Rarefaction and if he is still alive and not mod-confirmed auto-lynch? Also, if F-16 is scum fakeclaiming there should be no more CC’s until we can discuss this quickly?

[Konowa]

Everything you [F-16] said in regards to her behavior is alignment null.

[Konowa]

Leaving F-16 alive is best play. If he is scum, it could possibly break game for us in Rarefaction pending cell setup.

Vote: TwoUpstandingGentlemen

[Konowa]

Who is F-16 scum with, Parama?

[Konowa]

Posting in all games. Just received news that my grandmother passed this afternoon. Posting after tonight will be very limited as I have to help with plans and probably host the reception.

[Konowa]

I think you're town, Parama. Your vote on F-16 is useless, he isn't being lynched today. Who else is scum?

[Konowa]

Probably a silly question Tierce, have you ever planned/worried about possible game break, for lack of a better term for 308, as scum?

[Konowa]

Ugh.

Leaf, why do you talk about justification for Parama's vote but don't try to distinguish whether Tierce has any town motivation with her vote?

[Konowa]

What I'm saying is that in 315 you note that Parama's actions have no town justification. While in the same post you assume that Tierce's actions are scummy on a predetermined behavior of "hiding reads" and don't try to determine if her actions are town or not.

I'll refuse to answer what I'm doing with the Parama question till he responds.
For the Tierce question, I've seen her make breaking questions as town, and want to know if she's done it as town. I thought that one was pretty straight forward.
I don't understand why I can't question people despite being a town read?

[Konowa]

Ugh. 319, that line regarding Tierce should be "seen as town...want to know if as scum".

Vodka. Wee.

[Konowa]

I'm still not sold on her being town? Where did that come from?

Probay my last post of the night. We'll see how much of this vodka goes.

[Konowa]

I've really only skimmed since Wednesday night. Nor will I be able to until after the deadline due to work and funeral this weekend. Pretty confident in a TuG lynch at this point (hydra dissonance, Majiffy's "rage", going off of what Aeris said is alignment null, isn't town (trying to create a dual situation with Tierce "you didn't give reads so neither am I") which is crap).

[Konowa]

Gut so much I feel like I have hunger pains, Tierce is scum. Don't expect any reasoning to back this up.

[Konowa]

Guess I should vote.

Vote: Tierce

Not sure about anything else.

[Konowa]

Agree with you. If F16 made rarefaction as scum he would've been autolynch. So Trevor saying he's town because of the town hammer doesn't make sense. Also, Trevor voting me yesterday then switching because my wagon wasn't gaining traction and then voting Leaf today doesn't make sense as Town.

[Konowa]

So I should probably reread D1 in regards to Trevor/Tierce and see if it makes sense.

[Konowa]

Really quick iso+ctrlf of Tierce on Trevor, again pangs. Trevor/Tierce makes sense. Not going to explain tonight. I'm at work waiting for close so I can do inventory. Plus small amounts of vodkaredbull.

[Konowa]

I know you're tired. Layovers, cross-Atlantic. For me, explain the last statements in regards to meta. I assume that's what you're basing that on.

[Konowa]

Meaning "Konowa is prob town yadayada....".

[Konowa]

In case people ask while I'm not around, Tierce, spelt this as fierce first still appropriate, is based on ongoing so no I can't reference why.

[Konowa]

Vodka. No more from me tonight.

[Konowa]

Stop making me like you such much. It's undermining my read on you. Do you think Aeris/Leaf makes sense as scum, since I think (top of head) you said that, really can't remember one of F16/TuG being scum makes Aeris Town?

Yay for runs.

[Konowa]

Parama, won't lie. Can't remember.

[Konowa]

Yeah. Post 520 makes absolutely no sense at all. I'll try and clear up my thoughts on stuff today.

[Konowa]

I'm forcing myself to get into this game. Been a rough past week for me, all things considering. Just so you know where my head is: Tierce/Trevor or Tierce/Leafsnail. I'm having a hard time articulating why I think Tierce is scum. Has to do with her early game play in regards to Leafsnail (I think I said something about her being passive agressive). That may not have been the right phrase, but Leaf made a comment that Tierce just made a flyby comment too and if I remember correctly, never really pushed Leaf or dug into Leaf like I've seen her do.

As far as Trevor, I really don't remember anything about his D1 play, just that his vote switch to TuG seemed off. I'll actually have to go back and read and see what is what.

[Konowa]

You responded to him and explained why what he did was crappy, but never really pushed him on the matter. It reads more as trying to just explain yourself instead of trying to figure out his motivations. Then as soon as he posts in 61 "That's what I was initially expecting" you drop the matter completely.

[Konowa]

Anyways, that early game interaction came off awkward and forced.

PEdit: Just like that vote right there.

[Konowa]

Do you think Trevor/Parama make sense as a team? I don't see Parama coming out and essentially parking his vote on his buddy D2.

[Konowa]

Directed at Leaf.

[Konowa]

Leaf, who is Trevor scum with?

[Konowa]

Like, you name Trevor the most scummy by himself, and name a Tierce/Parama, but don't try to find a possible partner for Trevor.

[Konowa]

Why aren't you voting the most common denominator?

[Konowa]

Also, I was just trying to get him to comment more. But Parama is town. Lazy, but town.

[Konowa]

But you're not even doing that now?

[Konowa]

So I'm having a hard time finding the town motivation in Leafs' play. Parama opens D2 by voting Trevor, and in Leafs' first post he votes Trevor as well. Leafs' 554 looks like just a snapscumvote, in response to 550, and is coming across more as policy than an actualy scum read. I think if townLeaf really had a scum read on Parama, as he has shown that he apparantly does, he would have opened the day with a Parama vote.

[Konowa]

Really think it's Tierce/Leafsnail.

[Konowa]

Also, I will be V/LA over the weekend due to work and then will be absent until Wednesday due to Christmas stuff.

[Konowa]

Back from V/LA. Will get stuff out today.

[Konowa]

Okay, so here is my brief takeaway after a much needed break from everything.

I still am of the belief that a Tierce/Leafsnail scum team is entirely possible given their early game interactions that came across as forced to me. I believe given conversation and timing of Leafs’ vote in 554, as I discussed in 572, and how he has for the most part ignored Tierce while pushing what I still believe to be a policy vote on Parama, while ignoring Trevor (will get to this in a minute), is perfect scum play.

Now that being said, after looking over the game with fresh eyes, I am starting to believe that Leafsnail/Trevor is more likely to be the scum duo in this game. I think Leafs’ push on Parama for “his play has no town motivation” while ignoring Trevor who has done nothing this game comes across as false. Also, 577 and 592.

unvote;
Vote: Leafsnail

[Konowa]

I think that given game mechanics, pre-game scum would be more likely to try and go for two mislynches than risk lynching a buddy and being screwed over by possible cell arrangement with possible triggered IC still in play. I think with D1 mislynch and outting of F16 as IC D1 and his death N1, scum would be -more- eager to try and push for a mislynch D2 as we would then go into Rarefaction where Town has to lynch correctly from both cells to win.

So now onto actual gameplay. In short, is Leafsnail going for any potential mislynch, yes. I think a Tierce/Leafsnail scumteam where Leafsnail is pushing a Tierce/Parama team, or even a Trevor/Tierce scumteam (567), but not trying to determine the most likely duo who would be scum together fits what I think scum would try and do.

[Konowa]

I think that given Parama's townread on me and what he said, to prevent me from topping out at plurality, that it is very town motivated. If you disagree, why?

Why do you no longer think Trevor is scum?

[Konowa]

I don't know. Context and reading between the lines of 625 looks like a scumread to me.

[Konowa]

Tierce should totally hammer Leaf in her next post.

[Konowa]

Speaking of which

Tierce should totally hammer Leaf in her next post.

Konowa: why did you say this?

I wanted to see if Tierce would actually hammer in light of her question in 626 and my response in 627. cfj unvoting before Tierce responded first, note I saw her online posting elsewhere at the time so I figured I could get a quick response, sort of let the air out of that balloon though.

[Konowa]

Why did the lynch have to happen immediately though?

I think her response to said post would have helped me judge her alignment more clearly.

Where is this line of questioning leading? I don't see any alignment revealing information that you can deduce from it about me.

@Konowa: I was also interested in whether she'd hammer, but IMO you actually pushing her to hammer rather screwed the test up…

So I guess we both had the same objective, and opposite methods to achieve it.

Is that what 642 was trying to get at?

[Konowa]

Konowa: what I'm getting at is that your comment wadn't really "see if Tierce will hammer". It's more "pressure Tierrce into hammering early". Would you agree?

No, I don't. If I'm trying to get a reaction out of Tierce, I'm not going to be forthcoming with my intentions in said post. The sentence was loaded on purpose.

Again, I fail to see what you are trying to gain from this line of questioning. It looks like you are trying to incriminate me "pressuring Tierce to hammer early" than rather than figure out my motivation.

[Konowa]

I will try and get to more of this before deadline, but weekend work and all. I'll probably have some time on my break this afternoon and tomorrow morning.

And yes, that vote is very opportunistic. Leafsnail is interested in voting me.

So is Konowa, as far as anyone can tell.

That's L-1 with your own vote. You have not really addressed either the Leafsnail wagon or the Trevor wagon since jumping off the former; creating a third wagon on a mislynch target allows you to go back to either of those on Rarefaction.

This was interesting to me, given how I’ve gone about voting Today.

Yeah you were trying to get a reaction. That reaction was an early hammervote. What I am trying to do is get you to come clean about your actual motivation, because at the moment you seem to be lying about it.

Yes, I wanted to see if Tierce would hammer you, but given that I think you are scum I really don't see what the issue with this is. Again you are trying to incriminate me based on a single aspect of the entire situation. You trying to qualify the hammervote as early is pretty awful. Deadline lynches are awful in general, especially this one given that deadline is New Years Eve and I –highly- doubt there will be enough to muster a swing.

@Vi: Any chance of extension with Trevor replacement? Puppy eyes and ball in return?

[Konowa]

Not liking this push on Tierce at all. There are certain aspects that are bothering me. I will try and pin all that down after c[______].

[Konowa]

Okay. Found what was bothering me.
Tierce, you have just over a day. Please stop stalling.
Aeris and fitz need to post as well.
Still think it's Leaf/fitz.

[Konowa]

Who is fitz scum with Parama?

[Konowa]

I'll be around in the morning for deadline.

[Konowa]

Trying to stay awake for this.

[Konowa]

Also, trying to qualify anyone's interactions with Trevor is awful.

[Konowa]

Tierce you are scum aren't you? That's sad. If you really thought I was scum bussing without remorse as someone who can apply meta very well, as scum with Trevor/fitz wouldn't I have voted him when Parama called me on it. Your entire case seems based on that one line of me bussing but ignoring the fact that I am not bussing who you think I am scum with.

So what's your plan? Banking on Aeris not unvoting since she hasn't moved her vote all day and having fitz and possibly Leaf swing?

unvote;

[Konowa]

Yes. I just invoked a game of chicken.

[Konowa]

Also, I hate you being in Vegas time making me stay up late.

[Konowa]

I'm not staying up till 10 EST. Scummer love, but no.

I've been saying Leaf/fitz(Trevor) since 624 and said why.

PEdit: I've already explained that. I'm hunting the team. I think that it's either Leaf/fitz or Leaf/Tierce. Common denominator is Leaf. In this game, explain that.

[Konowa]

Go fish.

[Konowa]

Loaded question. Try again.

[Konowa]

So what's my motivation right now?

[Konowa]

You're accusing me of bussing, but my play doesn't fit what you're saying my scum meta fits. When I say as such, you say I'm capable of bussing, so six of one, half a dozen of another? You're not trying to figure out my play. You say you're going to go through teams but don't analyze them all. I was right earlier, wasn't I?

PEdit: LOL. I've been doing all Day.

[Konowa]

Just because you want to start playing now doesn't excuse everyone else.

[Konowa]

747 says otherwise (in regards to saying I'm bussing but no I'm not what?).

[Konowa]

So you're having the cake and eating it? Okay.

[Konowa]

No.

What I'm saying is that if you've read my two completed scum games you would see that I suck as scum and that I am really passive and just comment instead of trying to engage. Meta queen, I know you've read Steam Library Madness.

Based on our play together, do you think I would pull(really don't know the word I'm looking for here) one scum game for meta reasons?

[Konowa]

2:45

Vote: Tierce

You know based on my play I have more self respect.

[Konowa]

In your "team post" you didn't acknowledge me transitioning from a Tierce/Leaf Tierce/Trevor team to a Leaf/Trevor Leaf/Tierce team despite me saying why and trying to figure stuff along the way. Even more, you said I was Town on the same play you're now overlooking. You haven't analyzed any of my posts saying "why", instead you've just given minimum. Yes, part of this -is- based on your lack of play this Day.

[Konowa]

I really don't read you right all the time, nor am I paranoid. First Rarefaction I read you as Town really quick, Dresden I didn't read you at all (go read post game commentary I think that was almost on given my meh on you all game).

[Konowa]

You're twisting in the beginning of 779. You didn't try to see why I found the push on you suspect.

I'm glad you think I have no self respect. You are scum.

[Konowa]

Drinking coffee and reading stuff over.

cfj, I only have two completed scum games. Both are in my wiki, Steam Library Madness and Reverse Mafia Redux.

[Konowa]

I'll address everything tomorrow. Not really in a serious posting mood today. Dealine isn't for six days, so no need to rush this.

[Konowa]

I'm here, I'm here. Work related issues (thy fired two of my bartenders for coupon scamming and had to work all day Friday yay 18 hour shifts). I just got home from work. I'm going to shower, eat, then tackle this.

[Konowa]

Yes it does. -Stuff-, really trying to not replace out.

I would hammer fitz over Parama. Fitz's VCA is geared more to incriminating Parama then trying to figure out anything. It's very manufactured.
As far as my Tierce vote, I know she is a meta queen, and as such thought she was selectively using meta and applying it. So no, it wasn't that I thought she was misreading me.
I would hammer Leaf in this cell.

[Konowa]

Thanks for admitting that you're scum.

[Konowa]

And yes, this is me not voting because if anything I am paranoid.

[Konowa]

I'd rather vote when at least I am not at work. Weekends historically are awful for me.

[Konowa]

We have seven plus days. I'll post tomorrow, vodka for my Skins, when I'm not terribly upset.

[Konowa]

As a note, I think it's cute how Leaf tries to make the "fitz/Konowa" connection but had yet to once put actual words to it. Let's piggyback on confirmed town.

[Konowa]

That was a ankle break worthy of AI.

[Konowa]

Vote: Leafsnail

No need to drag this out. Leafs play has been more to incriminate people all game instead of trying to figure out alignments or motivations (example of this is his bad push on Parama all game and his leading line of questioning of me earlier, I'll find the pages if needed). In short, he has been trying to paint people as scum rather than attempt to figure out their alignment.

[Konowa]

OK, so here's a question. Leafsnail, Konowa, I'd like you to explain, from your point of view, the circumstances leading up to Tierce's lynch, especially in terms of what you think

people's

each others motivations were.

Sure. We know that despite what your intentions were, your [cfj] motivations were town since we know your alignment. Conversely, fitz. I'll go back and look over Leaf since I really don't remember much about his vote switch to Tierce. I think already, briefly at least, explained why I switched to Tierce. But I'll go back over that as well.

[Konowa]

Okay, so Leaf voted Tierce in 707 for "defending Tierce and Parama". By that connotation it would make more sense to lynch Parama first, at it would directly point to a Tierce lynch. However, what I am thinking is that despite Leaf pushing Parama as scum all day he is noticing that no one is going to be willing to go along with it. So he hops onto the Tierce wagon as he notices that it potentially has more traction to it.

As a side note, there is a nugget of great relational tell between Trevor/Leaf in 747 that Tierce clearly incorrectly interpreted.

[Konowa]

Trevor is PFFT. Don't like how he makes sure to say that he's also interested in voting konowa but doesn't vote him. And konowa has not only been missing from this thread but has really put in next to nothing here.

I like Leafsnail more. However, in the interest of time:

Vote: Konowa

Leafsnail is scumread #1, Konowa scumread #2. This is important.

To save the trouble.

[Konowa]

Lawl.

[Konowa]

I'll go try and go through you wall sometime today and post what I can tomorrow, Aeris. I got another 18 hour shift ahead of me today.

[Konowa]

And that last sentence is why I justified being gone. I rarely have time on weekends to post seriously. Leaf trying to say that I've been elsewhere, but yet not the other game I am currently in, is another example of his incriminating first scum play this game. Let me get c[_] and wake up. I'll post around noon.

[Konowa]

Okay, this will be shorter than I probably think.

Leaf is scum because he has been using leading questions to incriminate players. He says that it's valid because it forces players to justify their position. However, he doesn't take what has been said and analyze their motivations but takes the worst of it and assume scum (see his iso for how he was doing this after my attempt to get Tierce to hammer). He was pushing Parama all game for beig useless thus he couldn't be town, but ignores Trevor who was just as useless. Yes, I realize I ignored Trevor as well, but I also wasn't creating a double standard by pushing Parama and not attempting to get Trevor to play better. I think this is a very important distinction given that he tunneled on Parama all game. I think that Trevor's "I like Leaf as scum more, but in interest of time I'll vote Konowa", especially given plurality mechanic, is scum/scum interaction. As I said in last post, Leaf trying to use me posting elsewhere on site, but not in actual games, as an indication of me as scum is ridiculous and town wouldn't try to ice a cake with it.

That's al I have. I'll be getting ready for work and won't be around much longer or for deadline.

[Konowa]

That last post pretty much sums up everything.

For what it's worth, if I was scum I probably would've killed Tierce N1 and F16 N2.

[Konowa]

I think she was the most competent N1. As scum, I would've axed that and left F16 for all sorts of WIFOM discussion.

[Konowa]

I feel like I screwed the pooch on this one. Vi got it right, apathy. Holidays, passing of grandmother, work overload.

[Konowa]

I think for me at least since hydras are becoming more and more prevalent it was the lack of communication between the two of you. There didn't seem to be any singular, for lack of better term, direction.