Micro 89 ~ Mafia Rarefaction Segunda (Game Over!)

[Tierce]

at deadline the player with a plurality will be lynched - in the event of a tie, the player who reached the highest number of votes first; in the event of that tying, a random player.

Zzz Trevor read the rules before you ask stupid questions next time okay? You're my first official scumread now

*gasp!*
You're still voting me omgomgus quick lest I die before a single post.

VOTE: Parama

[Tierce]

5 to lynch. Mine was L-2.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: Parama
VOTE: TwoUpstandingGentlemen

[Tierce]

5 to lynch. Mine was L-2.

Yeah but that's what your partner is for

And then... what, exactly? Hope for a derpy Town player to hammer? I'd like to think no one here is that stupid. Why are you against L-2 and L-1 this early?

I voted Parama because I could. I see no need to stick to 1- or 2-player wagons, and you are experienced enough to know that pushing early wagons is not a scumtell.

[Tierce]

And then... what, exactly? Hope for a derpy Town player to hammer? I'd like to think no one here is that stupid. Why are you against L-2 and L-1 this early?

I voted Parama because I could. I see no need to stick to 1- or 2-player wagons, and you are experienced enough to know that pushing early wagons is not a scumtell.

L-1 is often claim time so it can be bad in itself, but yeah it's not much of a scumtell. Not sure what relevance pushing early wagons has though considering that's clearly not what you were doing?

...L-1 on RVS is claim time? Oh please. And what are people going to claim in this game? There are only VTs and a triggered Innocent Child, so what do you think scum will claim on D1? (Hint: not Town Roleblocker.)

The point is that your vote on me was trying to paint adding to a wagon as a scumtell, when you're admitting it's not. So what exactly are you doing here?

[Tierce]

Tierce - why unvote parama right after being called about by leaf snail?

Because I wanted to vote TwoUpstandingGentlemen. If anything, it put me in an equivalent situation in Leafsnail's eyes (an L-2 vote), so it's obviously not a reaction to him.


Konowa--there is nothing passive about it. He had a crappy reason and crappy logic to vote me, I called him on it and explained why. That 'fear' of claims at RVS L-whatever is silly and I don't shape my play out of fear of anything, up to and including causing Town claims.


Parama trolling isn't new and it isn't alignment relevant. He admits he's doing it when he's scum too, Aeris.

[Tierce]

I don't like tierce's repsonses to leaf though. Don't know why she didn't just say what she was doing and needed to point out it wasn't a scum tell.

VOTE: tierce

...

He was voting me for a reason that makes no sense, what am I expected to do? You're saying that me refuting a nonsensical accusation is scummy? O_o

[Tierce]

Aeris is very much not a newbie.

[Tierce]

I don't like tierce's repsonses to leaf though. Don't know why she didn't just say what she was doing and needed to point out it wasn't a scum tell.

VOTE: tierce

...

He was voting me for a reason that makes no sense, what am I expected to do? You're saying that me refuting a nonsensical accusation is scummy? O_o

Not necessarily. It looked to me like he was trying to get a read on you. The thing that struck me as odd was the 'not a scum tell' part. I just wanted you to respond some more to see if my initial gut read had anything to it.

No, you're saying exactly that. You apparently have a gut scum read on me, and you're saying that me refuting something as an absurd accusation to make (i.e. "you are voting me for doing something that, in truth, is not a scumtell") is 'odd'. What does 'odd' mean? You are clearly classifying 'odd' as scummy here, since you're voting me for it:

I don't like tierce's repsonses to leaf though. Don't know why she didn't just say what she was doing and needed to point out it wasn't a scum tell.

VOTE: tierce

In what world is showing that I didn't do a scummy action

scummy

?

[Tierce]

...And writing #78 turned my brain into a pretzel. It's turtles all the way down.

Aeris, the point is that you are describing my response to Leafsnail as 'odd' and voting me. My response to Leafsnail was clarifying what I did and why this is not scummy/"a scum tell". How is doing that scummy? How is defending oneself of (in Leafsnail's own words) "a weak accusation", something that is scummy? Players are expected to defend themselves regardless of alignments, and being able to deconstruct bad arguments is not exclusive property of scum players.

[Tierce]

@Tierce - you feel very agitated, is this just me?

Yes. I've been in a pretty mellow mood and I'm clearly taking this game slowly.

[Tierce]

None yet.

[Tierce]

None yet.

Read on any other player at all?

Nothing that I care to share at the moment.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: TwoUpstandingGentlemen
VOTE: theaceofspades

[Tierce]

Nothing that I care to share at the moment.

So you're going to just keep your options open and hop on any bandwagon as it comes. That really isn't acceptable.

I think I don't need to explain that lack of commitment is a scumtell, right? Especially in a game where scum may suddenly need to change their suspicions at lylo.

I have everything but lack of commitment. I am, however, not particularly interesting in sharing some of my reads right now. Being unpredictable can be a Town asset.


So, I would love to say aceofspades is too scummy to be scum, and that "it's too easy", but that's a damned fallacy if I ever saw one and I've let far too many scum off the hook from that already. And Thor should know that stupid does not mean Town, oink.

[Tierce]

I will note - I fully support Ace as a policy lynch today.

He needs to learn that he shouldn't try to protect his weak scumgame by intentionally playing hyper-bad all the time to help hide when he's actually being bad.

Hai.

Do you have Town/scum meta on aceofspades?

[Tierce]

That was directed to Thor for a very specific reason.

[Tierce]

It is however anti-town and unhelpful

Lies. ^w^

You know a scumread or two. Learn to read between the lines; you don't need pretty Regfan lists from me.

[Tierce]

I'm not being dodgy. I'm clearly saying that I have no interest in pulling out the rest of my reads and would rather focus on things when I think they are relevant to bring up. Yes, I'm playing my cards close to my chest, but if you peruse my games you will see me do this on occasion.

What I don't understand is why you're railing on me for not outing reads instead of analyzing the reads I

did

voice. I voted TwoUpstandingGentlemen and aceofspades without explaining either vote--so you're not okay with me not dumping a list of reads, but you're okay with the reads I voice through votes going unexplained? That doesn't seem like a coherent line of thought of someone who is truly trying to read me, but cheap posturing to try to paint "she's not voicing extra reads!" as scummy.

You don't care about the two scumreads I voted, so why should you care about anything else I haven't said, to begin with?

[Tierce]

In fact--

UNVOTE: aceofspades
VOTE: Leafsnail

Abridged version for those on the go: Leafsnail didn't give a damn about trying to understand the two unexplained votes (TwoUpstandingGentlemen and aceofspades) that I placed, but is calling me not giving any other reads scummy. This is not genuine scumhunting, he is blowing "not giving extra reads" out of proportion instead of looking at the facts and trying to analyze my motivations behind things I actually

did

and can actually be held accountable for, which is what he's insisting on extra reads for.

[Tierce]

And THAT is how I explain a read~

[Tierce]

So when I don't mention things I approve of/disapprove (i.e. things that would be visible reads) it's scummy, but when you do it it's perfectly fine?

You may want to check your hypocrisy. Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell, but coming from Town, it is a sign of deficient scumhunting technique, as you are not putting yourself in my place and trying to think as I do.

[Tierce]

Tierce - for spending the majority of time this game in defenseville. (and no defensiveness is not a scum tell, that's not what I'm getting at.). There's no proactive scumhunting and what has been there has felt meh. Though I *liked* enough her latest posts toward Leafsnail but it feels like something is missing.

...You do realize I'm half of Sixty, yes? I can't do everything at once, and at times I actually

don't

want to make what's in my mind crystal clear. People are easier to read if they can't use me as a shepherd.

[Tierce]

So when I don't mention things I approve of/disapprove (i.e. things that would be visible reads) it's scummy, but when you do it it's perfectly fine?

Oh so it's a twisted GOTCHA! argument. I didn't realize.

There's a pretty obvious difference. In your case you can later say that the votes you made were as a joke/RVS thing in TUG's case or a policyvote in Ace's case. Or you can say you were voting them as scum. Because you didn't make it remotely clear at the time (or even up till now really) your options are open. This is the problem, not that you "don't mention things you approve/ disapprove of".

...except you had no issues whatsoever with my unexplained votes. You wanted me to voice OTHER reads on OTHER players, instead of digging at the reads I did state through votes and seeing whether they make any sense. You are now saying that my unexplained votes left me with open options--yes they did. So why did you choose to focus on "she's not giving any other reads!" and didn't mention it? Wouldn't that be FAR MORE important, and 'lock me' into reads far better than tossing another number of reads I could change at the drop of a hat? That excuse of "I didn't mention it but it doesn't mean I agreed with giving unexplained votes" holds no water, because for someone with the mindset that I'm leaving myself a wide net of options, THAT should have been your first priority. Understand what I

am

doing, not railing against what I am

not

doing.

You can be snippy and sarcastic all you want, but that has nothing to do with the matter at hand. I'm saying that your hypocrisy is at best flawed Town behavior and you should check the way you get your reads.

In my case... what, I didn't specifically point at your votes and say "these are bad" and instead said "your play [implication: of which your votes are a subset] is bad"?

No, what you said was that not giving other reads was bad. Again, from a Town perspective I can't see why you wouldn't focus on the reads I did voice and try to understand THOSE when you then turn around and censor me for not giving extra reads. It's not a logical Town thought process, it's the behavior of posturing scum who is trying to sell private reads as scummy attitude. If you really wanted more from me, you would have asked about my votes. You did not.

You may want to check your hypocrisy. Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell, but coming from Town, it is a sign of deficient scumhunting technique, as you are not putting yourself in my place and trying to think as I do.

I really don't like this method of defense. The two problems are

1 you've danced around the "Not committing to reads is scummy because it allows scum to change their opinions on a dime to match the current situation" issue completely, and instead reinterpreted my argument in a weird way to try and make me a hypocrite. Scummy because you should be able to explain the reasoning behind your own play, and the hypocrisy attack looks like an attempt to dodge having to do so.

2 you've only started using actual vote reasoning and commitment now that someone has made an attack on you. Scummy because it suggests you know commitment and reasoning is needed in a decent vote (IE, one that other plays are going to care about and which will actually forward the game), but you're only deploying them defensively.

It was not a defense. You're strawmanning my arguments. I was saying you were being hypocritical in your reads, AND I have explained my reasoning AND you didn't ask me for reasoning for my votes until I noted that I haven't been giving it, so this whole section comes across really forced.


PEdit: No, I don't have a lot of fingers in a lot of pies. It's a two-part reason: I'm busy and I see no need to bring up a couple of reads I do have until I think I have something more solid/they are relevant. I've done this before. Curiously, something I'm

also

noticing these days is that I feel a lot more alone, due to the fact that I've been hydraing quite a bit--not having someone to bounce off private ideas outside the thread makes me jittery. Which is a bit weird, because I didn't feel this way during Maf.Triplicate, but I

do

miss the hydra comfort from Dresdenafia and Reverse Mafia. It's not so much paranoia as "huh, I don't know if this idea makes sense but I really want to nurture it where it can't be tampered with and then see what happens".

Quote tag fixed. ~Vi

[Tierce]

Unless you can provide me with evidence that I was referring to "other" reads rather than your reads in general (I wasn't) I have nothing else to say on this matter.

Why?[/quote]

Read on any other player at all?

[Tierce]

...I really can't handle tags tonight:

Unless you can provide me with evidence that I was referring to "other" reads rather than your reads in general (I wasn't) I have nothing else to say on this matter.

Read on any other player at all?

[Tierce]

Blatant prod dodge. We'll see if I post tonight or tomorrowish.

[Tierce]

(That'll have to wait till tonight. I'm handling travel prep and hopping around the city. I'll get back to you ASAP, especially since deadline crept on me and I didn't notice.)

[Tierce]

I just previewed this beast and... it's not as bad as it looks, promise. It's mostly a case on Falcon, and the quotes need to be there because they are specific highlights of why he's scum. Please read it.

Blatant prod dodge. We'll see if I post tonight or tomorrowish.

Please do, and if you're town, please post like town.

How droll.

Fiiine wanted to sleep but it's just eleven pages and half of them is troll!Parama anyway so.


Leafsnail's reasoning for me continues to be... pretty bad, really. :/ Why would you think I would make a

second

RVS vote (i.e. my shift to TwoUpstandingGentlemen) or even justify it as such? That said, Leafsnail himself seems to have two pretty RVSish votes, as he justifies his vote on me (after his vote on Parama on Post 6) as him using weak RVS accusations. Seems a coherent line of thought, so I think I'm more going than

omgscumLYNCHIT

at him over that. Odd attitude, but that's it on that specific line.


Konowa is nowhere near the Town half of the playerlist.

Tierce, why so passive agressive with Leaf?

This seems like something that scum would say to a Town v. Town fight. He wouldn't react like that if Leafsnail was his buddy, and he is not giving this any outside the box thinking--it's just looking at a presumed behavior instead of the motivation behind it. Post 66 seems contrived after Dresden. Way too forced.


Still willing to lynch TwoUpstandingGentlemen. The call for interest on Post 147 (especially after that "Tierce seems agitated" in Post 80) was sketchy, and Majiffy seems more interested in flavor on page 1 than in actually doing things with his hydra partner. As Town, I would expect them to have had some sort of ideas shared between them between Post 20 and Post 23 (QT, AIM, PMs, whatever), but Majiffy ignores Thor's point and rambles pointlessly about flavor. He keeps doing a version of that for the next half hour, which doesn't really show interest in what his hydra partner is doing--he doesn't engage Parama in discussion about the game, even though they are posting back and forth.

Post 44 is a load of puppypoop. Terrible reason to complain about Parama--if you had that much conviction about it, why didn't your hydra partner do anything about it?


Trevor intervening in Post 37 shows that he's probably not scum with either of TwoUpstandingGentlemen or Parama. He wouldn't be going "wtf?" at the pointless fluff if it was favoring his team. Post 162 matches with my own line of thought below; Trevor is probably Town.


Falcon's Post 40 is... bleh. He doesn't seem too engaged in the early game--he goes from a silent vote on TwoUpstandingGentlemen to a question that isn't alignment relevant. Post 43 and those that follow do show some more game-relevant curiosity, and he's at least following up on them somewhat. However--

List of questions feel contrived as if you don't have anything valuable to add but are desperately posting fluff.

This is rather awful. He is railing on Aeris for 'contrived' questions and 'desperately posting fluff' (wow, that suddenly turned vicious), but ignored Majiffy and Parama's fluff sequence while asking them questions. The vote on Aeris seems rushed in comparison.

Going through Falcon's ISO in general does not make me comfortable with this slot at all. He seems too certain of things, too dismissive and harsh at certain points (which matches up his scum meta more than his Town meta). Stuff like this:

VOTE: Parama for ignoring suspicion under the guise of joking around.

Weak stuff.

Can't decide if you

[Parama]

are a troll or a legit player.

Would have expected Town-Falcon to actually make an effort here--either to understand Parama or to ask other players who have played him before. Heck, looking over Parama's meta wouldn't have taken long.

Not addressing suspicion hoping it would go away or that players get distracted instead of probing into it and figuring out if it is legitimate. I gave you a pass since I assumed you were a troll but since you are saying you are serious, no reason to hold back on lynching you now.

Way too certain, example #1. While being confident is not a scumtell with most players, scum-Falcon is prone to a level of arrogance in his reads that is not present in his Town games, where he is very very paranoid.

At least one if not both of Trevor or Parama is scum.

Trevor has continued to post but didn't respond to my accusation.

Let's push another wagon while we are at it. You know what was Trevor's ONLY post between Falcon's vote on him and Post 126?

Aceofspades is too easy. No scum motivation at all.

Yeeeeah look at all that wild wild posting while not responding to Falcon's accusation. How dare Trevor do that.
Now let's hark back to Trevor's 162, which I mentioned above. Falcon's reaction?

At least one if not both of Trevor or Parama is scum.

Trevor has continued to post but didn't respond to my accusation.

You're using the easiest reads in the book "desperately posting fluff" "because trolling/joking", the vote on you was for the bad aeris vote.

So,if you think I am scum, you should be at least giving a reason for your vote, shouldn't you? You are either convinced I am scum or you have a hunch I am scum and want to figure me out. If it is the former, if you were town, you would push for my lynch and if it is the latter, as town, you would at least ask me why I voted Aeris and what I felt was contrived about Aeris's post and try and figure out the motivations for my post. You are doing neither. You posted a lazy vote and disappeared and only responded when I called you out on it twice. Why are you being so reactive that I need to reach into your throat and pry your thoughts out of you?

Woooow overreaction batman. Mind, Trevor posted ONCE and it was a one-liner to speak up against a conveniently easy wagon, but no, Trevor is a criminal and he needs to die already.

>Trolling = town
>Being serious = scum

This is what you're saying

Seriously

I think the point you're missing is that if I was scum why would I admit to being serious :V

Coz you are stupid?

Oh COME ON. Where is the hunt for Parama's motivations?

Anyways, I'll doubt you'll answer either since you likely scum.

The point of asking was to figure out if Parama suspects TUG for sheeping/saying they will sheep a scumread.

I know for a fact that as town,

I'd suspect someone if they sheep me while they maintain a scumread on me. As scum, I wouldn't. I'd be happy that they changed their position from attacking me to sheeping me and wouldn't want to mess it up by turning on them. Town motivation is to hunt scum. Scum motivation is to save themselves. Parama's motivation matches up with scum. The fact that he is refusing to think and analyze various possibilities points to scum.

That's an incredibly roundabout way of self-righteously defending yourself, I must say. I'm impressed, Fighting, but I'm still going to vote you.

The stupidity in this post is null. Town can be stupid, so can scum.

What is scummy is that he dodges the question and misrepresents a direct question as a "roundabout defense"

clearly because he has no answer.

I've

highlighted

the posturing in this post.

I like 120 too. Decisive, curt, not fluff. I don't consider the non-hammer to be necessarily a towntell though. Hammering Parama so soon in the day would have put Trevor in the hotseat regardless of Parama's affiliation. I've seen a game (Thor played that game too) where Thor was town and a scum blatantly said "I am not hammering." It is something that is alignment indicative and a totally plausible thing for scum to do.

I am certain Parama is scum

although I am starting to have doubts about Trevor. He still needs to post more though.

More

posturing. Let's make sure that Parama lynch goes through!

Regarding the convincing point, why are you being passive about it?

It is not like there are no votes on him and it is a real possibility he could get lynched. If you think he is town, you'd want to call off the dogs, right?

Anyways, I can see 194 potentially coming from Thor. Yeah, maybe he is playing mind-games. But if I were in Parama's place and town, and Thor who had me as a scumread suddenly says "make a case and I'll sheep," I think I'd be wary that he is so quickly putting aside his suspicion. Although if I were scum, "yay, I convinced Thor" would probably be the first thing on my mind.

Maybe that is just me. More perspectives wouldn't hurt. What would you do?

The part about Parama not voting Trevor: you are essentially saying he is being too scummy to be scum, correct me if I am wrong. "Maybe I am reading too much into it" could come from fence-sitting scum. That wouldn't be alignment indicative either. Also, he continues dodging questions, avoiding the issue and going off on tangents. The most recent page is evidence of that.

I guess you

could

WIFOM and say "would he really do that as scum" but that is just going to get us into an endless WIFOM cycle. Better to just pin down anti-town behavior right away, isn't it?

Can you elaborate on your post?
- How does the push on me seem natural. What do you consider 'natural' vs 'artificial'?
- What do you "like" about what I say?
- What don't you agree with about his push and what do you agree with?

New evidence on Trevor - basically avoiding the thread - being passive, casting a lazy vote and disappearing.

* Regarding mislynches, actually they don't win after two mislynches. If we mislynch twice, this goes into rarefaction. Two groups of 3P LYLO cells with one scum in each. Scum need to be in this game for the long run. Can you re-evaluate based on that? It would negate the refusal to hammer as necessarily a towntell. I've played this game once before - the LYLO blocks are really difficult for scum to get past.

And yet

more

. Note the WIFOM bit in particular. No regard for motivations, once more.

Also

, really lame reasons to suspect Trevor. This has no depth whatsoever.

@ Aeris:

Case on Trevor: no effort. I asked him a ton of questions 70 was the last I believe and his response is basically this:

Meh, don't really like that many lynches right now. I'll join any convincing bandwagon that isn't TUG/Parama/veggie. Stayin on F-16

Passiveness. No analysis, nothing. He didn't like that I said your post was contrived so votes me and sits on it while contributing absolutely nothing. I explained why I voted you, and also asked Trevor the reasoning for voting without promoting discussion. He is just avoiding discussion, sitting back and hoping the town destroy themselves. Trevor needs a wagon too.

Look at how much he's blowing the Trevor case out of proportion.

Passive - I am saying "passive" because you cast a vote and sit on it without regard to new developments. You are still trying to justify your weak read on me as opposed to being open to re-evaluating it. Considering I am posting the most analysis out of anyone here, and trying very hard to probe into other player's motivation and scumhunting, I don't believe the only scum-read you would have as town is me. You are not trying to figure stuff out. You are not trying to determine anyone's affiliation. You are not trying to understand the motivation of other players. In short, you are not scumhunting.

"

F-16 is scum because he puts random bullshit like "not promoting discussion" or "avoiding the thread", or "being passive"."

This has also been explained. I remember telling you that I voted Aeris partly to see if anyone reacted in a scummy manner. I also said her insistence on demanding an explanation from me while not jumping to conclusions read as town whereas your unexplained vote read as scum. You have been ignoring the responses and parroting the same line that has been refuted.

You seem angry at the fact that you have to post. It is like you are irritated that you need to play this game. Mafia is a voluntary activity. If you don't want to play, please don't. If you do and you are town, at least post in the thread, contribute to discussion, try to figure out the affiliations of various players. Don't sit on a useless vote, get pissed off that you are being called out for not contributing, say you don't like the current wagons and leave it at that. You must have some opinions on the other players in the game. There has been plenty of stuff going on. For instance, what do you think of Parama's reaction to TUG?

Yet more posturing, and remind me again which players Falcon is actually analyzing? Yeah, no--he hasn't reevaluated reads at all, he's just hammering at the same old ones. There's no sign of the constant turns and twists that Town-Falcon does. Super mega-tunnel on two players go.

I have been reading. I didn't understand your reads properly because you haven't been giving them clearly.

Anyways, could you respond to 229.

I have a *lot* of trouble buying Trevor as town. He is completely reactive as opposed to pro-active. I can buy TUG as Thor being Thor, Tierce is being pro-active, Leafsnail, I have a townread on based on his push on Parama. Maybe I am biased because I agree with him but similar thought processes usually mean similar affiliations.

I think what I have been trying to say in a nutshell is that I disagree with your reads because you are basically going the "too scummy to be scum" route. I mean, literally, there is not one pro-town thing that Ace of Spades did so, it would be great if you could explain that read. Why would you have a townread on AceOfSpades as opposed to say Tierce for instance?

Can you give me your take on 229?

These reads are bad. Lousy justifications, and where are the other players?

It is similar to you thinking Parama is town but not entirely agreeing with his case on me. Tierce as scum usually bandwagons. I've played two games with her as scum and she bandwagoned on the biggest wagon both times. As scum, she pushes lynches and doesn't probe into motivations as much. As town, she questions players a lot and tries to get inside their head and understand why they are doing what they are doing. Her read on Leaf seemed as such. She was trying to distinguish between scum posturing and town genuinely being suspicious. I don't agree with it because I was thinking the same thing as Leaf at that time (Tierce shouldn't keep her reads close to here chest) and said the same thing as well. So, I see the push as townish but the target as also town.

Yikes. The first bit of this is super bad, as I am an excellent example of Cobalt's Law as Town. I tend to be on the largest wagon

because I'm often the one pushing it

. The only reason the wagon I'm not on a large wagon here is because I've been a busy puppyhalf elsewhere. Hi there, clairvoyant scum.

UNVOTE: Leafsnail
VOTE: F-16_Fighting_Falcon for having a goddamned username that I always need to check when typing it.


Parama--please start playing. I know you're capable of it and we don't have time or lynches in this game for that silliness. Knowing that Aeris is not a newbie, how does that affect your read on her?


Aeris--to clarify Parama's RVS vote on me and my OMGUS, it's a reference to our last game together. In Destiny Mafia, I replaced in on N2, was immediately NK'd, and was able to make a post the next Day (hey-o mechanics magicks~) that pegged Parama and Reck as scum. So yes, it was a joke.

I know who you are, thus the form of address/some familiarity. Was still trying to get a read on you, but with that thing there you're probably Town anyway. (Pending a Falcon scum-flip, your interactions and his persistence in trying to convince you while ignoring your arguments for the most part means you're probably Town.)


Reading the rest of the game tomorrow since I stopped catching up on everyone else to do that Falcon ISO. I hate walling, lol.

[Tierce]

Oh hey who needs sleep anyway. I'll deal with the other players later as promised, but this is too delicious for me to go back to bed before poking at.

Tierce, your case seems more scummy than town-motivated to me. This was exactly what I was talking about regarding how you as scum bandwagon onto players. I am strongly convinced you are scum based on that. I'll post more analysis but a brief version is this:

1) When you are scum, you usually wagon onto a player who is already being wagoned. This applies here. You claim that you are on the largest wagons always because you are the one pushing them. That misses my point. My point is that you *join* the largest/second largest wagon after others expressed suspicion of the wagoned players.

What Falcon is doing there is completely forbidding me from joining any wagon when other people have already expressed suspicion about said player. This is absurd--I have a whole new slew of reasons to vote him, and any incursion into my Town meta will show that I have often voted people who were already being voted/had suspicion on them. It is not scummy to do so. In fact, this happened in a game where we were both Town. I'm voting for my own reasons, because I think he is scum, but because I'm the third in the wagon I'm suspicious. That's nonsensical and I just unearthed (a lot of) examples through several games that put the lie to that accusation.

2) You make no attempt to interact with the player. As can be seen above, there are zero questions in the post. There are statements that end with a question mark, but those are merely rhetorical questions for which you have already made up your mind. you haven't interacted with me in the slightest.

For pity's sake. I don't need to go on a back and forth with a player if I already have a read on that person. There is a time for asking questions and a time for making cases, and I see no need to ask questions of you right now.

3) The vote on Aeris has been explained about 20 times so far. A huge discussion took place about it and I gave my reads as to the reaction of various players. Don't tell you just now happenned to see it and

somehow

managed to miss the multiple explanations and analysis given based on the vote on Aeris.

Don't care how many times you explained it, it was still a bad vote and your 'explanations' do not satisfy my lust for scum blood. You mean this?

But FF you can now point out what is contrived about the questions. I actually want to know the answers to those things.

At the time I voted, it was partly a gut feeling. The way you made 3 questions to 3 separate people made me feel as though it was not spontaneous. Also, you say "

if he was a scum read, why not vote him

?" and "

I want to vote parama for apparently not knowing who boy George is

" came off as dissonant and my general feeling about your post was that it was scummy.

I know it is not a very good reason but it was a start and I voted anyways because it would generate discussion and hopefully make someone react in a scummy/townish way.

Your reaction was townish since you insisted that I explain my reads, didn't jump to conclusions, and wanted more discussion.

Trevor's reaction was scummy. Just a quote and a vote. No comments. Opportunistic as well since I have started arguing with a player meaning I have my hands full. Best move for scum is to jump in hoping that they won't be attacked because I was already busy attacking another player.

VOTE: Aeris

List of questions feel contrived as if you don't have anything valuable to add but are desperately posting fluff.

Vote: Fighting

Trevor, what is the reasoning for your vote?

Yeah impressive 'multiple explanations and analysis' going on there. Even if they weren't crappy explanation/analysis, that doesn't excuse how shitty the vote was and how much it does not fit with your behavior toward other players.

4) The remaining parts are all hilarious exaggerations. Will come to that later.

*rests chin on hands* I'll be here all day~

5) Lots of buzzwords like "lousy justifications," "posturing," etc.

Yeeeah no. Those aren't 'buzzwords'. When you have lousy justifications for a vote, that is a scumtell, as you are not genuinely scumhunting. Posturing means "To assume an exaggerated or unnatural pose or mental attitude". Which is what you are doing in

many

of your posts, as if you're trying to fake a genuine attitude and determination and emotion, but since you don't actually feel/have those, you end up exaggerating in a way that feels very fake. And yes, posturing is a very viable scumtell. Been there, caught that scum. Had a slew of those in Maf.Triplicate (it didn't bother you then), Reverse Mafia and in Dresden Mafia--Nobody Special, the director, PiggyGal, GreyICE, curiouskarmadog, they were all rather obviously faking emotional states. (For reference, all linked Sixty-hydra posts were written by me.)

What's worse--this posturing 'buzzword'? You didn't have an issue with it in THIS game when I was studying Leafsnail:

It is similar to you thinking Parama is town but not entirely agreeing with his case on me. Tierce as scum usually bandwagons. I've played two games with her as scum and she bandwagoned on the biggest wagon both times. As scum, she pushes lynches and doesn't probe into motivations as much. As town, she questions players a lot and tries to get inside their head and understand why they are doing what they are doing. Her read on Leaf seemed as such.

She was trying to distinguish between scum posturing and town genuinely being suspicious.

I don't agree with it because I was thinking the same thing as Leaf at that time (Tierce shouldn't keep her reads close to here chest) and said the same thing as well. So, I see the push as townish but the target as also town.

You had no issue with me describing behavior as posturing a while back, but now you suddenly call posturing a 'buzzword' when it's used to describe your attitude.

It is also fairly obvious Trevor is not scum as seen by how much Tierce defends him. It is fairly obvious Aeris is town as well. Parama, I am not too sure.

Here is the most damning evidence:

Parama--please start playing. I know you're capable of it and we don't have time or lynches in this game for that silliness. Knowing that Aeris is not a newbie, how does that affect your read on her?

Parama is pushing my lynch - me, your biggest sumread. If I am scum, he is doing everything right. From your perspective (thinking I am scum), you should be congratulating Parama because he stays focussed on me. Why do you tell him to "start playing?" In your opinion, he should be playing to absolute perfection by pushing a lynch on me, isn't he? Why do you call him out when he is pushing your scumread?

Of course he's not playing to 'absolute perfection'. I don't care if he's pushing you--he's doing

that

bit well, but it's hardly "perfection" if he's being a troll and letting himself be wagoned to L-1. I'm calling him out because I want him to pull his weight if he's Town, and I haven't excluded the possibility of double-bussing as I know you do it to the last consequences. You're stretching a lot if you are trying to paint this as a scumtell.


I haven't been mislynched for over a year now. As a wise scummer said--if you can't read me when I'm Town, you're really bad. Please go on and entertain me with all these meta examples that show I'm scum, as

nothing

in the above post can be regarded as authentic and I have provided plenty of evidence otherwise.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Not interested in any counterclaims at present, but that being said, this slot will not be lynched prior to Rarefaction.


Aeris--if Falcon is not the Innocent Child, he may be trying to draw out the real IC Today, not at Rarefaction. Considerably less ballsy move. This is a moot point, however, as I am not interested in counterclaims.

How is it weird to have conditional Townreads? If a scum v. scum pairing doesn't work and I believe person A is scum, person B is necessarily Town to me. It's partner-hunting.

As for that line, it's Empire's regarding both Regfan's and my Townplay. It was more humorous than anything--I haven't been mislynched since December 11 last year and was 'celebrating' my no-mislynch-versary.


Either way, waiting on Falcon's 'case'. Want to go through other things later today.

[Tierce]

...You have got to be kidding me.

Look at the BBcode buttons and stop stalling. Where is that meta case on me? You don't need tables or images for that, and you know how to post links and quotes.

[Tierce]

Spoiler:

Let's take a sample of Tierce's recent games:

TOWN

:

1) Mafia in Triplicate

: Tierce is pro-active right from the beginning of the game. She pressures NobodySpecial in #33. When NS votes her back, she questions him and demands explanations as to why he thinks she is scum. Her later switch to Saulres also feels comletely natural. She expresses slight suspicion on him, has a conversation with him at #163 and later votes him. The smooth progression of suspicion, and the desire to understand what is going on in the mind of her scumreads is seen here.

2) Micro 51

: A recent game I played with Tierce under my alt rapidcanyon. Right from the moment, she replaces in, she is actively scumhunting. She first suspects me here #57. Notice how she continues asking questions and probing for motivations. She responds to my arguments and asks a few more questions, demands explanations as to what kind of reactions I was expecting and what they mean about alignments. She continues going back and forth for 6 pages probing into every possible motivation and explaining why they are wrong or in some cases changing her reads.

SCUM

:

1) Black Flag Nightless

: Piggygal had 4 out of 6 votes to lynch when Sixty (Tierce/Vi hydra) places the fifth vote. This post was made by Tierce (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4471773) where she places the L-1 vote and makes a case for lynching Piggygal. Most of the reasoning was terrible - the fact that Piggygal was joking somehow makes her scum, and using Piggygal's RVS votes to implicate her. A quick look at Sixty's ISO shows not much aggression and initiation of pressure. Essentially, she made a huge case against the L-1 wagon and jumped onto it.

2) Possessed Pastors in a Paranoid Parish

: In this game too, I was playing under my alt rapidcanyon, I was town and Tierce was scum. Her case against me mirrored her case against Piggy in Black Flag Nightless. #178It mostly talked about having "exagerrated reactions" #263 does more of the same. It is mostly a play on words arguing about whether the word "imperative" means the same as "urgent" and other hollow reads.

Your game samples sound manufactured. You know where you're taking that from? Empire's case on me in Open 463 (Black Flag Nightless). Where he was absolutely right. But here? You are suddenly ignoring the probing on the 'why's you so enjoyed in Post 247 and Post 249. Now they are no longer worthy of recognition. It's obviously not that you are not allowed to change your mind, but you are acting like your Townread on me

never happened in the first place

. This makes your analysis come across as doctored and trying to push a faked read because you know the roots of truth on those finished games ring true.

1) Interesting to note, Tierce put Saulres at L-1 in Mafia in Triplicate so bandwagoning by itself is non-alignment indicative to her. The methodolgy of the bandwagon is what matters. In Mafia in Triplicate, she had expressed suspicion of Saulres before. She asked why he was going after a serial flaker. That natural progression of suspicion culminating in an L-1 vote separates her vote on other L-1 wagons like Piggy in Black Flag Nightless where her case lacked any depth to it and merely pointed out the dumb things that Piggy did in an attempt to paint her as scum.

And how about all those examples I posted where I did not express suspicion of other players before others did? Again: I brought up plenty of new evidence against you. Go look at Dresden Mafia. We lurked for several days and ended up voting GreyICE on D1

after several others

while presenting evidence of why he was scum. We (Sixty) were Town. We had not presented GreyICE suspicion beforehand. The way you frame this is, again, forbidding me from suspecting players other players already suspect. It's trash and it's not a scumtell.

2)

Tierce's influence over town

: When town, Tierce leads the game. She questions players, finds out their motivations, keeps up with the game and isn't self-conscious enough to make long, elaborate "cases." When she sees someone suspicious, she votes them. She asks them questions, tries to find out for herself whether the player is scum or town. This is apparent in both the above town games. As scum, she has relatively little influence over the outcome of the day. As seen in Possessed Pastors, in her later posts, she lurks a lot, makes giant catchup posts and hollow cases. The primary difference in her cases is that as scum, she tries to pin enough inconsistencies on a player in order to achieve a goal - lynching that player. As town, she never stops digging into the "why." She always wants to know why someone is doing what they did and why that could come from a scum motivation.

Oh?

Go look at Otherworld and Chrono Trigger Resurrection. I was Town in both. And my behavior here does not correspond to anything like "later posts" in Possessed Pastors.

Spoiler:

3)

Tierce's activity level

: Tierce lurks as scum. This is a pattern that can be seen over multiple games. Her activity level in games as town is always less that the activity level in games as scum.

To prove this, I calculated her activity level in her last 9 town games and last 9 scum games. I calculated it is a percentage of the total posts in the game until the point of Tierce's death in the game. I also calculated an "expected" percentage which each player in the game would have if they all posted equally. I then divided her actual percentage with her expected percentage to get the ratio of her activity level. As you can see from the graph, Tierce lurks as scum. She is lurking in this game which points to more evidence that she is scum.

SCUM

Game	Tierce's posts	Total posts till Tierce's death	Tierce's posts/Total posts Fraction	Percentage	Number of slots	Expected percentage	Actual/Expected
Black Flag	38	618	0.06	6.15	10	10	0.61
Science	40	277	0.14	14	7	14.29	0.98
Possessed Pastors	77	1104	0.07	7	13	7.69	0.91
Abarat	31	1091	0.03	3	23	4.35	0.69
Doctor Who	57	559	0.1	10	13	7.69	1.3
Exp. Role	105	1875	0.06	6	23	4.35	1.38
Paranoia	359	3810	0.09	9	20	5	1.8
Newbie 1209	110	677	0.16	16	9	11.11	1.44
Pick your Power	45	842	0.05	5	14	7.14	0.7

TOWN

[/row]

Game	Tierce's posts	Total posts till Tierce's death	Tierce's posts/Total posts Fraction	Percentage	Number of slots	Expected percentage	Actual/Expected
Mafia in Trip.	95	450	0.21	21	9	11.11	1.89
Dresden Files	103	1499	0.07	7	18	5.56	1.26
Micro 51	112	366	0.31	31	5	20	1.55
Reserse Mafia	76	673	0.11	11	13	7.69	1.43
Newbie 1289	75	459	0.16	16	9	11.11	0.02
Micro 12	58	559	0.1	10	9	11.11	0.9
Arkham Horror	61	322	0.19	19	13	7.69	2.47
MLP: FIR	82	902	0.09	9	15	6.67	0.6
Catch-22	277	2376	0.12	12	22	4.55	2.64

Plot of Scum vs Town Games

:

You are doing that dance you accuse people of.

Remember, the one where you accuse people for cherry-picking through games when analyzing you?

Because using nine scum games (why nine, by the way?) and nine Town games is going to correspond to

drastically different periods of time

. You are not taking into account ELEVEN more Town games that correspond to the same period of time. Moreover: one of the games you are ignoring is quite representative of Tierce-not-doing-much on the first Days. It's not even like here, where I'm playing guardedly, I was literally just prod-dodging. As Town. Even post V/LA crap. Want to see another? Otherworld. Had the highest post count, was posting on all crucial moments, was regarded as a lurker all the same. Another? First few RL days of Dresden Mafia, where Vi and I were busy/lurking the game.

Why are you ignoring these games and going for the sheer mathematical approach? No regard for motivations whatsoever. I dismantled your previous post, and this one post doesn't build on anything you hinted at on that one. This tells me that you DIDN'T have anything like this in mind when writing your original reply, didn't have any sort of data, and are hurriedly covering your tracks with numbers to make it look like you have anything serious. Those numbers don't mean anything as you have no analysis of crucial moments.

You're making an analysis of post count on D1.

You are taking into account EVERY post I made throughout a number of days and situations that do not simply include D1, but a multitude of situation that cannot be compared. Moreover, this is shown in the wild fluctuation of my post count in other games, so you can't possibly think that data is significant--I apparently have TOWN games where my post count/percentage/what have you was lower than it was in this game, but you spin this to make it look like I'm lurker scum when I clearly have not dodged any important moment in this game.

tl;dr: Your data is intentionally misleading and statistically irrelevant.

Current game

:

1) Aeris Vote: Based on my Aeris vote, if it was bad, I'd reasonably expect Tierce as town to attack me instantly for it, and refute my explanation and keep probing as to whether it had scum motivation. Instead, she just made a passing comment and used it as another point in her favor. It seems more like a race to count off how many inconsistencies she can nail as opposed to a puzzle-solving mode of trying to understand motivations which she often takes as scum.

...So because I didn't notice it on a first pass, I can never bring it up again because doing so makes me scum. Awful reasoning at best, scum covering your tracks at worst. Once more, look at our votes on GreyICE and curiouskarmadog in Dresden Files. We were not interested in puzzle-solving. We were interested in

dead scum

.

2) Me saying Parama is scum:

When I say "

I am certain Parama is scum

,"

Tierce responds with: "

More posturing. Let's make sure that Parama lynch goes through

!"

Based on Tierce's town games, I would overwhelmingly expect Tierce as town to ask "why is Parama scum?" and when I give my answer, probe into the motivation for that, refute it, argue with it, etc. Instead she asks no questions to figure out my affiliation but rather chalked it up as a point in her favor.

I don't need to ask you why you think Parama is scum. I have no interest in making you repeat yourself--you've already explained that read by "Parama is pretending to be joking around to ignore suspicion on him." This started on Post 102 and didn't change since. Why would I need to ask more questions on this when you've already had back and forths with others that I can refer back to?

3) Me attacking a lurker. I was town in Micro 51 and attacked a lurker. As I mentioned, Tierce's post was this: #57. Notice how she tries to get into what I was thinking by explaining how I lurked in another game as town and how it not a scumtell. She further elaborates on how lurking may not be indicative of affiliation. Compare that to here. She quotes my post and says "

Look at how much he's blowing the Trevor case out of proportion

" - and leaves it at that. She collects it as a point in her favor rather than use it to promote discussion to figure out my motivations.

[/quote]Attacking a lurker is one thing. I am not going after you for 'attacking a lurker'. I'm going after you by how inane your scumread on Trevor is, and by how every post you make on him is yet another way of spinning what little he's doing into scum attitude.


I see no follow up on my dismantlement of your previous case on me. I also see very specific points followed up on Post 256, when he should be approaching the whole thing.


My 'lurking' is apparently a small point, but neither that nor anything else Falcon is saying holds any water.


Aeris--assuming scum won't put in effort is a slippery slope. Yes, some scum are lazy (hi!), but Falcon makes a point of saying he's not lazy as scum. If we lynch his partner today, he'll stay alive until Rarefaction (and there's actually something in the mechanics that is worrying me and I want to PM Vi to clarify), so any semblance of effort can make him look Town and avoid an early lynch. The fact is that he tossed a buttload of effort into something he now admits is not that meaningful, instead of looking at actual situations in those finished games (and the games he discarded) that might be remotely comparable.


VOTE: TwoUpstandingGentlemen

[Tierce]

Posting in all games. Just received news that my grandmother passed this afternoon. Posting after tonight will be very limited as I have to help with plans and probably host the reception.

My condolences. I hope everything goes as smooth as possible given the circumstances.

[Tierce]

and there's actually something in the mechanics that is worrying me and I want to PM Vi to clarify

Okay good. My point was whether night-kills were compulsive, because otherwise, with scum lynched on D1, the second scum could no-kill at 3:1 and force a final Day with no Rarefaction (i.e. no cleared Innocent Child if the player is alive). However, Vi says that, in the case of a 3:1 mislynch, Rarefaction would hit immediately after and we would have a 2:1 LyLo.

Carry on.

[Tierce]

This is just getting ridiculous now. And he's still ignoring my dismantlement of his case on him and how none of his initial points make me scum. Woo-hoo, a brief version of a case that is absolute trash--let's just not defend this amazing conviction we had that indicates a total flip on a Tierce-read because other people (including the accused) showed it was utter bollocks.

Regarding Tierce's response:

My intial Tierce-townread

It ties into my line of thinking perfectly. As I mentioned, I had some misgivings about Tierce earlier but the overall nature of her play made me read her as town. For instance, she started questioning Leafsnail and asking about his motivations. So, that part reads town which is why I had a town read on her. I am not saying she is incapable of emulating her town meta as scum. She is hyper-aware of her meta and I find it perfectly normal that she would try to emulate it. She did a good job pretending to be town. Over a longer period however, it becomes more and more difficult to uphold your town meta. Tierce slipped when she saw the opportunity to wagon onto me which allowed me to extrapolate her behavior and see that it fits more with her scum-meta.

I forgot to mention. In the Black Flag Nightless game, Empire posts a ton of meta on Tierce - more interesting stuff.

I don't feel the need to mention my townread on Tierce because it is no longer applicable. She fooled me.

This is utter crap. There was no organic flow in your read on me, there was not a touch of acknowledgment of the previous read when you called me scum. As I said, Falcon-Town does 180-turns on players, but the paranoia is always there and he always mentions stuff he considered previously instead of holding on to a single post like it was the end-all, be-all of a read-flip.

"New Evidence"

Tierce claims she has "plenty of new evidence." This is precisely the problem I have. Why is she counting off how much evidence she has rather than figuring out my affiliation? In no other game as town does she do this. It is always an inquisitive probing into player's minds to determine their affiliation. A series of questions which get more and more detailed the further she probes. Compare that to her case on my vote on Aeris. Very superficial. She just said "bad vote" and counts it as evidence.

pffffahahahaha

I am not 'counting off' evidence. I am saying I am bringing in new evidence (i.e. points against you others have not mentioned) when I vote you. You accused me of "bandwagoning" with lame reasons. I'm saying my reasons to vote you are very much not indicative of me sheeping your previous scumreads, and they show I did my work. Once more, I have no need to ask questions, and you are ignoring all the games in which I did NOT ask questions of my strong scumreads. You are also ignoring the fact that I have brought that up in this game already--i.e. you're not reading my posts in full or dodging my points in them or still not bothering to check the meta to see if I'm speaking the truth.

Comprehensiveness of meta

I don't think pointing out a single other game where someone was town/scum and corelating that to meta is accurate. "X did Y as scum, he is doing it now, so he scum" is heavily inaccurate.

In order to use meta properly, we need to have a large sample of games and shows

patterns

of behavior as opposed to isolated behavior. That is what I have done by comparing behavior in two town games and two scum games to show clear patterns across multiple games. As for activity level, I used a total of 18 games so I can confidently say "Tierce lurks as scum and I find her lurking scummy." It is not a guess or a random thought on my part but the product of factually proven analysis of data.

As with any data sample, there will be outliers and exceptions. Tierce saying "I lurked as town in that game" has little relevance or merit. There have been a couple of games where Tierce had a high post count as scum. Again, any data sample will have outliers unless it was done with dishonest intentions. The important thing to consider are overall trends in both behavior and activity level.

No, this is not what you are doing. You are not looking for patterns, because what you are doing is secret numerology and secret numerology

doesn't work

. It doesn't work in VCA, it doesn't work for post counts. You are crafting a nice excuse to go "oh well this game was one of those exceptions" when I do flip Town. Once again, you are looking at numbers instead of looking at the games in which said trends occurred. Numbers are naked. Numbers have no motivation nor situations impeding/increasing post count. Your 'comprehensiveness of meta' is bullshit because

it's just blind numbers

, where you are not looking at the rest. For someone so interested in my meta as to make a description plainly ripped off Empire's, you are not looking at the games themselves. This reeks of fakeness.

Disinterest in back-and-forths

Tierce says that I've already explained why I think Parama is scum. She doesn't want to discuss it. Again, compare with Micro 51 where she continues questioning until she gets to the absolute bottom of the situation.

Look at you, once more disregarding where I've said I've done that as Town before. Didn't you say one or two situations aren't enough to prove things? Then why is it acceptable for you to present 'proof' in this manner but not for me to disprove it in the same way?


Konowa--somewhat. Paranoia Mafia had a situation in which the death of a Town multi-voter combined with a scum Night action made us win the game outright even after my lynch. I had that idea, but Oversoul enacted it as I was the one lynched that Day (obviously this wasn't stated in-thread). I care about potential ways of breaking the game as either alignment--however, I guess your question is whether I 'apparently' attempt to break the game for Town

in-thread

as scum? I don't think that has happened yet--the Voidedmafia D1 lynch in Open 463 doesn't count, as it didn't show any gamebreaking method one way or another. I think I know what you're getting at; it's the Reverse and Dresden game plans, isn't it? I don't think there's a way to push for a more likely Town win here other than forcing people to interact in a way that might eliminate pairings come Rarefaction.

[Tierce]

...

You're joking, right?

Still willing to lynch TwoUpstandingGentlemen. The call for interest on Post 147 (especially after that "Tierce seems agitated" in Post 80) was sketchy, and Majiffy seems more interested in flavor on page 1 than in actually doing things with his hydra partner. As Town, I would expect them to have had some sort of ideas shared between them between Post 20 and Post 23 (QT, AIM, PMs, whatever), but Majiffy ignores Thor's point and rambles pointlessly about flavor. He keeps doing a version of that for the next half hour, which doesn't really show interest in what his hydra partner is doing--he doesn't engage Parama in discussion about the game, even though they are posting back and forth.

Post 44 is a load of puppypoop. Terrible reason to complain about Parama--if you had that much conviction about it, why didn't your hydra partner do anything about it?

I am not interested in lynching Falcon Today. I hopped off that wagon. But I will continue calling out his terrible case and how I believe he is scum. Calling my vote 'silent' when I had already explained my reasoning 24 hours ago doesn't make any sense. I don't need to post wall cases every time I want to move, and my suspicion of the slot is pretty well documented.

[Tierce]

Holy shit that was well hidden. I guess it's not scummy but if you've made multiple wallposts in the 24 hours between your reason for voting (which is in turn hidden between a bunch of quotes from other people and a massive back and forth with someone else) and your vote would you mind requoting it? I also don't get why any of that stuff is meant to be scummy but at least you had something of a reason

Uhm...

Ctrl+F? I don't even use TUG when referring to them, IIRC, so anything from "TwoUpstandingGentlemen" to "Thor" to "Majiffy" to "Thorjiffy" should hit results.

And yes, I think that kind of hydra dissonance is scummy because it shows that Majiffy apparently isn't interested in scumhunting

and

is not interested in Thor's scumhunting. If they were both scumhunting in different directions, it would be one thing, but Majiffy was doing nothing while ignoring his hydra partner.

(With that said, while the "I hate walling, lol. " line was a joke on mastin due to the length of my own post, I'm not fond of walling and the inevitable arguing with my scumreads it degenerates into--and I can see it's turning a few players away from the game. Will try to tone it down.)

[Tierce]

I was actually tiptoeing around that question--which is why I PMd it to Vi instead of asking it in-thread. Feel free to confirm it by asking it yourselves in-thread/via PM, but I didn't want to do so visibly because if night-kills were not compulsive and a 3:1 mislynch did not trigger Rarefaction, Town could be forced into an horrible 3:1 mandatory MyLo. i.e. my bad feeling about it meant I wanted to keep such a potential scum strategy* secret.

*Upon first partner's lynch, no-kill at 3:1 --> force 3:1 MyLo with no ensuing Rarefaction

[Tierce]

2. You're leaving yourself an out and if you're scum, that "townread" doesn't cost you anything. As scum ,you would know falcon was town; therefore when you get your town flip you get to take it back. When town do the conditional town read thing it usually looks a bit different. "oh I have a town read here, but If this person flips scum, then the town read is stronger.". Or "I was leaning scum here, but this read is stronger and if I'm right on this one then I'm wrong on the other because there's no way they're partners" type thing. Not to mention that you even undermine it in that very post when you ask how me not being a newbie affects Parama's earlier town read on me.

And regarding your 314 in which you say that you can really only win this game by forcing town to interact in a way that will help in rarefaction. If that's true, why have you been nearly absent this game, not attemtpting to force people to interact, asking questions that would help those reads, etc. and instead going I don't want to be a shepherd, let me hold my cards? This doesn't make sense, and I do think the way you and vi did your "game breaking strategy" as scum after the voided lynch in 463 counts to the question knowa was asking you.

The Parama-you question was part of that interaction analysis. It has nothing to do with my read on you, it has to do with my read on Parama. It should be pretty obvious that I'm not interested in pursuing you right now regardless of Falcon's alignment, either way.

[Tierce]

*regarding rarefaction. If we mislynch today, the game goes into rarefaction tomorrow, right? Then if we mislynch once, in one of the cells, we lose, right?

The game goes into Rarefaction when # of Town = 2 * # of scum. Which means that we are at 7:2 right now, a mislynch takes us into Night at 6:2, we are likely to come into Day 2 at 5:2. Rarefaction will hit after Tomorrow's mislynch, so we have two mislynches before we cannot mislynch at all.

[Tierce]

Majiffy: quick. Sum up your QT reads for me, both yours and Thor's. Five minutes, go.

[Tierce]

2/7 is less than 1/3. 2/6 = 1/3. Rarefaction hits regardless of what phase (Day or Night) was supposed to follow.

Yeeeah after that Majiffy post I am very much interested in this TwoUpstandingGentlemen vote.

[Tierce]

You have it right.

If we mislynch Today and Tomorrow, Rarefaction hits on the twilight of D2.

[Tierce]

Also, if we lynch scum Today or Tomorrow, unless I have my numbers wrong (getting a bit too tired to check), Rarefaction will hit at the start of D4.

[Tierce]

At rarefaction, the innocent child get mod confirmed to us as innocent. Don't know what else you're looking for.

Oh I don't know, like what any of that means would be great.

How would you feel if I started talking to you about RT60s of different rooms and the effects of thresholds and ratios on compressors?

Yeah, sometimes when someone asks for a definition, they mean an actual definition. Fancy that.

You're not an idiot and would have discussed the Innocent Child with Thor if you didn't understand it. It's in the rules and it's very clear how it works. Stop playing dumb.

[Tierce]

In case you were too thick to figure it out, Thor isn't around atm. Which is why we got prodded. Which is why I'm posting.

Thor isn't around, so you neglected the game even further. :/ You expect him to do all the work and post for both of you? How does that work? Thor is a better scum player than you are, so I want

you

posting because I want to read you. Stop whining and pulling out the insults, I don't have to do your job for you.

And the "read the freaking rules" comment stands instead of trying to play dumb. I can't believe you came into the game without any kind of discussion between you regarding the setup, and I can't believe that your QT reads are as simple and empty as that.

You chose to follow your Townread Leafsnail onto an "unsettling but not very noteworthy" read of yours that Thor does not even care to mention instead of following "probTown" and claimed Innocent Child Falcon onto me, which both of you see as a scumread. Because Leafsnail has been "spot-on all game", you say. This is terrible reasoning and you brought nothing new to the table after you ostensibly spent 20 minutes catching up.

[Tierce]

VOTE: TwoUpstandingGentlemen

Does this answer your question?

Frankly, I don't care how many jobs and how many games you have. You signed up for this game, the implication is that you believe you will have time. Not my problem if you don't and I don't have to be courteous toward someone who finds himself overwhelmed. Declare V/LA, deal with it, replace out, whatever. There are two people in the hydra and you should be able to pick up each other's slack. Not my problem if your coordination is lacking.

By all means. Do expound on those reads, then. Do explain how you're voting a nullish read instead of voting me--you are trying to figure out if I'm dumb or scum (now there's a question for you--where am I being 'dumb'?), but for all this 'trying to figure out', where is your reasoning?

[Tierce]

Two jobs, five games, one modding, but you have time to post everywhere but here AND replace into a game three and a half hours ago.

This is not the behavior of someone who feels he is overwhelmed. This is the behavior of someone who is deliberately lurking in this game. You knew Thor would be LA, but it didn't look like he thought it worth a mention in this game, which means that he expects you to keep up. You haven't done so.

So why are you lurking, Majiffy?


I don't need to ask you for reasoning for votes that you have already explained, Falcon. I've said this already and this isn't rocket surgery.

[Tierce]

Lol, I like how Tierce is playing to her town-meta after I make a case on her.

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Town and

I've been playing to my Town meta all along because I'm Town

. I've dismantled your crappy case, feel free to follow up anytime.

[Tierce]

Two jobs, five games, one modding, but you have time to post everywhere but here AND replace into a game three and a half hours ago.

This is not the behavior of someone who feels he is overwhelmed. This is the behavior of someone who is deliberately lurking in this game. You knew Thor would be LA, but it didn't look like he thought it worth a mention in this game, which means that he expects you to keep up. You haven't done so.

So why are you lurking, Majiffy?

Oh hey. There is also Thor's mega-lurking since his post on the 10th, while he was happily posting elsewhere until his Limited Access notice.

Lurking hydra does not bode anything good. It's much harder to fake reads as scum in an hydra, you want your partner to be around just to make sure you're not screwing the pooch. I'd know

though I'm never scum

. Why has this hydra even needed a prod while you two are posting elsewhere, you have time for a new game, and are apparently actively reading along, Majiffy? How, as Aeris said, did you miss the Rarefaction and Innocent Child discussions? Why didn't you look at the rules, and instead chose to play dumb and lash out when people didn't bow to your every whim? Why are you voting Trevor over me? And longer explanations of your QT reads, please and thank you. A summary of the discussions you have been having (without quotes or timestamps) would be wonderful too.

Neither of you are players to fall inactive. The most logical explanation is that it

sucks

to be scum as an hydra, and that ties in very well with the way you were letting the more experienced and capable scum player of the two of you take the reins early on while you just made pointless posts. It's not even like the troll+wallposter hydras, it's that Town trolls in hydras

pull their freaking weight

or at least give SOME support to their partner's work.


Aaand it's 5 am. Night. Lynch TwoUpstandingScumbags.

[Tierce]

You know, I was going to, but now I've decided you're too much of a headache for me to bother.

Yeah no this is not going to fly at all.

Too bad. Don't give a damn how obstinate you play yourself up to be. You're refusing to give reads--and I did read your Micro as a scum hydra, and your QT reads there? They reek. They are really really awful. So unless you give some sign that you are willing to participate in the game with more than MoI-style snippy responses that don't address alignment-related issues and revealing reads that are marginally genuine, you are going to eat a glorious double noose.

[Tierce]

I'm terrible at this sleep thing.

Tierce's reaction to me claiming isn't a town reaction. When someone that scum is trying to mislynch turns out to be a power role, scum usually get frustrated. This is evident by Tierce's and Vi's reaction in Black Flag Nightless when their mislynch target was confirmed due to the way he replaced out. If Tierce was town, she'd be happy that her biggest scumread (me) claimed IC so she doesn't have to worry about me. Instead, she comes off as angry, frustrated, and in a bad mood, like scum who just got screwed out of a mislynch.

Ahahahaha no. What mislynch target in Black Flag? absta? I was defending absta and we were not posting/dead by the time we replaced out, so what frustration are you talking about? And no, of course it's not a situation in which I "don't have to worry about you". I don't believe your claim--I thought this has been made pretty clear. If I believed it, I would have moved on. There is no point in trying to lynch you Today, but you're a scumread and your claim doesn't change that. You've been attacking me with sloppy and sloppier arguments. I'm refuting them and calling you scum with scum-motivated behaviors. Again, not rocket surgery. But keep trying to discredit me while admitting I'm playing to my Town meta, it's been fun.


Still interested in that longer explanation of Thor and Majiffy's QT interaction, and the more Majiffy stalls, the worse it looks. Not going to bother replying to the insults and hissy fit he's throwing.

Your QT reads. Longer version of them, please. This is obviously what I meant by 'reasoning', which you would understand if you weren't carefully playing dumb and trying to rile people up. (Aeris, I believe that after me, you'd probably be the most likely person to fall in that trap--don't.)



More Majiffy fluff what a giant surprise.

[Tierce]

Vi doesn't delete posts.

Yes, you are stalling explaining your QT reads and dressing it up like this:

And longer explanations of your QT reads, please and thank you. A summary of the discussions you have been having (without quotes or timestamps) would be wonderful too.

You know, I was going to, but now I've decided you're too much of a headache for me to bother.

There's no Town motivation for this. Go take your fake irritation and petty bickering elsewhere. You're obviously not interested in lynching scum, don't give a damn about the person you are voting, and your reads on everyone else are paper-thin as you have refused to explain them under the guise of "people are being too stuck-up for me to feel like cooperating". Deal with it. No one is forcing you to play, you signed up for this and knew the playerlist when you did. I don't give a damn if I annoy you or not, but I still need to see if your reads are genuine, and right now every sign points to "no".

[Tierce]

In fact:

Micro 89: Mafia Rarefaction Segunda has filled for Vi with the following playerlist:

Konowa
Parama
Tierce
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
theaceofspades
Aeris
Trevor
Leafsnail
TwoUpstandingGentleman

You knew what you were getting into, as your hydra was the last sign-up. There was no sign of an interest in an aceofspades policy lynch early on, which I could have seen from irritated Town discussing things with each other in their QT. That policy lynch talk only came about when it was convenient. You also knew I would be in the game, you knew my playstyle before this game, yet have since called me and Aeris all the names in the book in an ill-veiled attempt to piss us off and start a scene in-thread. It doesn't parse that you would sign up to play with people you don't like and, as Town, only bring this stuff up when it comes convenient for you to do so: as poor excuses for not cooperating and pushing lynches.

I'm going to love it when you flip scum.

[Tierce]

Majiffy: quick. Sum up your QT reads for me, both yours and Thor's. Five minutes, go.

Both of us: Leaf town, Parama scum, You scum
Thor: Ace PL, F-16 "play leaves me unhappy", Aeris town. Parama moving "more to WTF than scum"
I'm seeing F-16 as probably town, Trevor is unsettling but not very noteworthy, and Ace/Konowa are both complete non-issues in the game so far.

Simple and empty? You specifically asked for the simple and empty version of the reads. You know, those special words "sum up"? Yeah.

And longer explanations of your QT reads, please and thank you. A summary of the discussions you have been having (without quotes or timestamps) would be wonderful too.

You know, I was going to, but now I've decided you're too much of a headache for me to bother.

Here you go, Tierce, in your own words.

I am, however, not particularly interesting in sharing some of my reads right now. Being unpredictable can be a Town asset.

/anymerityourargumentcarried

You're hilarious. Keep changing that story. Keep trying to paint me as the one and sole reason you aren't explaining a single one of your reads. It's totally my fault you are not playing to a proTown mindset at all.

Thor wouldn't have signed you up if you hadn't agreed to it; you had plenty of chances to bow out; you had plenty of chances to bring up stuff you/your partner didn't like about players before it became convenient for either of you to so from a scum point of view. Yep, these are all terribly invalid points.

I don't give a damn about your reads if they don't have any weight to them. You're trying to distort things--giving ~four words each for each player when you have purportedly been discussing them elsewhere is NOT any kind of valid read and you know it.


Anyway--I don't have to convince

you

that you are scum. I just wish you'd do anything remotely like pulling your weight if you're Town. Have fun not doing that and we'll have fun hanging you. ^___^

[Tierce]

(Yes Falcon I've bee totally lurking by posting until the high hours of the morning both yesterday and today. Totally scum Tierce paralyzed with fear. Wanna push that too?)

[Tierce]

Aeris--I have no interest in revealing who you are, but: why this account?

[Tierce]

It does.

Follow-up

500 words or less essay

question(s): how successful you think you're being so far in this game in regards to those goals? All appearances point to no one knowing your main but me--so the only person who has access to your meta is not arguing its indication of alignment one way or another in this game. How does this game

feel

regarding pressure levels/expectations/nervousness/etc.?

I'm obviously not looking for straight comparisons (since I don't want to out you), so I understand the answer to this is probably rather roundabout and vague. I'd just like a general assessment of how playing in that account in

this

game feels like for you.

I actually want to check timelines to see if you knew I knew your identity

turtles eating pretzels all the way down

before or after sign-ups. More curiosity than anything.

[Tierce]

I actually want to check timelines to see if you knew I knew your identity

turtles eating pretzels all the way down

before or after sign-ups. More curiosity than anything.

Timelines say you found out after sign-ups started, and that you signed up knowing that I was in the game.

I don't know if the appropriate reaction emoticon is

Uo.ôU

or ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You didn't know alignments yet, sure, but I'm trying to figure out if this could be relevant in any manner re: motivations and behavior and... well, pretzels.

I'll just keep calling you Town because that might help me sleep

at night

in the middle of the morning

perhaps some time this afternoon.

[Tierce]

Timelines say you found out after sign-ups started, and that you signed up knowing that I was in the game.

To clarify: you (and I) realized mutual knowledge after you signed up.

[Tierce]

Alright, we're on the same page. Go to sleep--one of us should get some shut-eye, at least. >.>

[Tierce]

On a reread, I don't find Tierce townish. Her case on me fits her scum-meta very well. Her refusal to believe that I am confirmed town is garbage as well. The push on Majiffy, I don't entirely see it impossible for her to do as scum especially right after I spoonfed her town-meta to her.

Tierce is still our best shot at a scum-lynch.

@ Majiffy/Thor, if your town, stop insulting Tierce so much - it is not her fault she drew scum.

Also, why the Trevor vote? Explain your thought process as to why you think he is scum.

hahahaha

You.

Spoonfed my meta to

me

. One of the most self-aware meta readers currently active. I don't need your poorly done meta cases for that. You want a good meta case? That was Empire's on me in Open 463, and I didn't jump up and played to my Town meta then, so why do you think I'd do that now if I was scum? Your ripped-off shoehorned stuff and weak attempts at showing your regular Town paranoia aren't 'spoonfeeding', they are bullshit blabbering that has no actual connection with how I'm playing. You made a meta case with a predetermined view on my alignment and are twisting everything accordingly, up to and including ignoring the evidence I've given that your case is bullshit.

@ Majiffy/Thor, if your town, stop insulting Tierce so much - it is not her fault she drew scum.

This bit in particular is hilarious.

Also, the appeal to Aeris was scummy as well, i.e. saying that Aeris was town if I flip scum.

Oh, right, saying that a scum-scum partnership doesn't work is sooo scummy. I must have missed that lecture.

Majiffy, you might want to read this comment from Tierce after she won a scum game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3998241

Especially look at the part where she addresses Midnight Sorrow.

*snerk* So... You're saying that me intentionally getting on a player's nerves as scum is similar to... what, exactly? The only thing I've asked of Majiffy is for him to explain his reads, and he acts all high and mighty and uncooperative. Yep, totally my fault he's being scummy and evasive.


No, dear. You are not going to mislynch me.

[Tierce]

One of the most self-aware meta readers currently active. I don't need your poorly done meta cases for that. You want a good meta case? That was Empire's on me in Open 463, and I didn't jump up and played to my Town meta then, so

why do you think I'd do that now if I was scum

? Your ripped-off shoehorned stuff and weak attempts at showing your regular Town paranoia aren't 'spoonfeeding', they are bullshit blabbering that has no actual connection with how I'm playing. You made a meta case with a predetermined view on my alignment and are twisting everything accordingly, up to and including ignoring the evidence I've given that your case is bullshit.

For WIFOM. Also, the skill of the town here is nowhere near that in Open 463 so you think you can worm your way out of it.

Your "evidence" basically consists of pointing out outliers instead of general trends.

Justifying everything as WIFOM is ridiculous. That's not valid, period. Either explain why it is WIFOM or get out. And you know why it's not WIFOM? Let me walk you through the steps:

You're saying I didn't even try to pretend I wasn't scum in Open 463, but the fact that I'm

playing to my Town meta here

is WIFOM. That is absurd, and you are completely ignoring a perfect meta example that fits this game, including posts for HOURS on a late night schedule that I would never pull as scum. You're ignoring this because it's convenient to you--let's forget Tierce's play in Micro 51, now that the meta is matching and your analysis is proven to be bunk.

You're saying I gave up on Open 463, but that I would go on a post spree for

twenty five posts in twelve hours

as scum

FOR WIFOM?

Are you scum, or are you out of your mind? We had a Town game together where I did much the same and it was BLEEDING Town motivation because I'm the laziest scum alive, but you conveniently choose to handwave the fact that I'm doing it here as WIFOM?

Yep totally an outlier. It is a known fact that I take a while to get rolling, and therefore the "Tierce was lurking = scum omg" stuff is bullshit. This puts the lie to your accusations of outliers. I don't do posting sprees like in this game and in this one as scum--not because it's a truth tell, but because I am simply incapable of going on that kind of thing for so long. I physically can't keep up the motivation for so long because I loathe being scum.

You're scum. You're not "confirmed Town", you're fakeclaiming scum. First we'll get your UpstandingBuddies, and then we'll lynch you because the real IC can afford to claim after the first scum lynch and we won't need Rarefaction. That's why you are desperately trying to swerve the lynch from TUG onto me, because YOU won't survive Rarefaction and need your scumbuddy hydra to do it for you.

[Tierce]

Tell me, Falcon: who is

my

scumbuddy?

[Tierce]

Tell me, Falcon: who is

my

scumbuddy?

It isn't Aeris. It probably isn't Leafsnail either. It could be TUG and you could be bussing like in the Possesed Pastors game. It is unlikely that is Trevor. It could perhaps be Parama but I am not sure. It could be StefanB or Konowa.

Your impressive lack of scumreads is showing.

Look at all that lack of paranoia.

Claiming Innocent Child may draw out the actual IC, either by CCing or by narrowing it down via virtual VT claims from other players. You had a solid case against you. Claiming Innocent Child is your best bet. Don't even try to paint it like there is no scum motivation in doing it. Regardless of whether or not you are scum,

scum's best shot D1 is to claim IC

and hope their buddy carries the game after a D1 scum lynch + N1 IC death OR D1 IC lynch + N1 Town death + D2 scum lynch. It is not scummy of me to not believe your claim, as it is not optimal for Town to CC you D1. If you trust the other scum to be good enough to win the game, why

wouldn't

you claim IC as scum and get the real IC lynched/killed as you go? You're refusing to even see this from my perspective because you're painting me as scum from the get-go. That is scummy. End of story.


The meta argument is getting really old and tired. You have no ground to stand on, you are wrong and you are scum. At least that scum flip will tell me you are not as dumb as you're acting like regarding meta. You're refusing to step back and analyze

anything I do

. "Oh Tierce is looking Townish but no oops I reread heheh I was wrong she is scum she is our best bet for a lynch let me just ignore everyone else in the game." There is not an inch of logical rationale in your posts, because you started that case with "Tierce is scum NO GOING BACK NOW EVERYTHING SHE DOES IS WIFOM."

Wow.

[Tierce]

It's almost as nice as playing with MoI.

[Tierce]

Pretty sure I saw Thor get day one'd some time recently.

Thor665 was lynched Day One. He was a Mafia Godfather Neighbour.

And we lynched him gloriously on D2 of Dresden Mafia, too, after hitting his scumbuddy D1. I'm all for doing it again.

I like how Majiffy claims that there isn't a 'valid case' when there is a very very obvious valid case from contradictory behavior and refusal to explain reads and hydra interactions they have supposedly been having. His refusal to acknowledge this and insistence that his pro-Town actions speak for themselves (which pro-Town actions?) does not make the case die away. I know Thor is used to playing with newbies who are easily intimidated when he laughs them off, but this is not going to happen here.

[Tierce]

Anytime you want to present a case on me that isn't "lol WIFOM", I'll be listening.

[Tierce]

I've played with Thor before and he is usually much more active than this. But then Thor has two scummies, I doubt it would be so easy to tell when he is scum (simply due to inactivity).

Thor's Scummies are enough to make Falcon pause and not give a definitive read on Thor, but he ignores Parama's Best Town Performance.

Note: Best IC Player doesn't have to do with play quality. Best Mafia Performance is a team award. Best Town Performance is a team award as well. So how are Thor's awards relevant, but he just rants against Parama instead of trying to figure out his alignment? The depth of his Parama read is still "trolling to ignore suspicion on him = scum". Nothing more.

I need to research Thor's meta later. I am busy doing Tierce's right now.

Bet you dollars to peanuts this is not going to happen. Thorjiffy are on the line,

Falcon has voiced interest on the wagon

, yet neither hammers it nor does the planned research on Thor meta, he's just trying to push an alternative wagon like there's no tomorrow.

(Very likely because Thorjiffy's scum lynch means the end of Falcon's scum game as well.)


I also bring you this. More evidence of Thor blatantly avoiding the thread at L-1.

[Tierce]

Parama, serious question. Why haven't you hammered?

[Tierce]

He's not Today's lynch. Move your vote.

[Tierce]

There's no rush. I am just wondering why you're not troll-hammering. This is a new thing.

[Tierce]

It's kind of hard to replicate, so if you are here tierce my bonnets off to you too.

Don't promise things you can't do. No bonnet, etc.

Spoiler: We can fix this, though!

(You're welcome.)

[Tierce]

Good luck with that.

[Tierce]

WOOOO LET'S WAGON THE PERSON WHO SAYS HE WON'T BE AROUND WOOO TOTALLY TIERCE'S PARTNER

This game is an exercise in frustration.

[Tierce]

Hey, Falcon. If I were scum, I'd know you are the IC, because

no self-respecting Town would lie about it

. So what would be the point to constantly push you as scum if I KNEW it would be a pointless and ultimately useless push?

Yeah no. Keep trying to paint me as scum when you have no ground to stand on instead of trying to see things from my PoV.

By the way, for someone who insists he is

not

lazy as scum, you sure do a good job of looking indignant when saying you wouldn't pull all that :effort: as scum.

[Tierce]

Anyways, that's about the extent I am willing to defend TUG.

A lot of stuff he is doing isn't adding up to me either and if I didn't have a strong scumread on Tierce, I'd probably have voted them by now. I guess it is up to them if they are going to start being helpful from now.

Yep stuff wasn't adding up then but now that they are in line to be lynched you are trying to push an alternative wagon--as the wagon on me is clearly not going through, you need another one, because your scumbuddy needs to survive

through

Rarefaction as

you

will not.

This is so blatant.

[Tierce]

If they were scum with me, why would they be so apathetic to their impending lynch? You don't seem to have thought this through.

Neither of them particularly enjoy playing scum. And one of the best scum tactics is letting others fight for you, so...?


Wait, wait.

The correct answer to this should be

"THEY MUST BE WIFOMING"

There, now we're standing on the same level of accusation. Aren't you happy?

[Tierce]

I see no bonnet yet.

What is this crime against fashion.

[Tierce]

^ Voodoo Child is better.

Spoiler: There's only one answer to your indecision.

In the meantime--

V/LA until December 19th.

My access on the 17th will probably depend on whether I can find a power socket in the Dublin airport. Will likely be in jetlag coma come the 19th.

[Tierce]

Fascinating how Falcon's research into Thor meta is apparently reduced to "Thor doesn't lurk as either alignment." He must be busy still metaing me and finding new ways to say "Tierce is playing to her Town meta

to a Ti

but she must be scum!"

[Tierce]

StefanB is very Town. Or at least, not scum with Trevor or Thorjiffy, ever. This line here:

Trevor: Was selfpresurvation your main reason for the hammer?

It makes absolutely no sense for scum with Trevor or scum with the lynchee(s?) to say this, as the extra knowledge he'd have regarding the alignment of the people involved would make this question preeeetty pointless. I'd also argue that he's not scum, period, because knowing TwoUpstandingGentlemen's alignment, whatever it is (which he would as scum), is enough by itself to make the question pointless. It works much better as a genuine line of inquiry + curiosity as Town than as an empty question for scum.

Vi is not around at present.

Wooo knowing your mod's schedule.

If you want to talk more before Night, there is a little time.

[Tierce]

I feel stupid about Falcon's flip, but I have very few regrets about Yesterday's lynch. Knowing them, their QT posts start with calling the Town derp for lynching them without admitting that they also did something wrong. :/

I'm presently in transit to the US, and should arrive there in 28ish hours. I'll need a day or two to get my bearings and then will try to reread this. Frankly, I have no clue where to start here.

(But at least Aeris keeps her bonnet!)

[Tierce]

Disclaimer: It's past 4 am and I'm running on caffeine, airport music and sleep deprivation. THIS IS FUN WOOOO

Guess I should vote.

Vote: Tierce

Not sure about anything else.

Sorry, but no. Scum-Tierce really doesn't devote the inane amount of effort and frustration I've poured into this game. I'm practical as either alignment, and that practicality wouldn't have had me railing against Falcon so much if I wasn't truly convinced he was scum (i.e. if I was scum and knew he was for real). I'm incredibly paranoid as either alignment, but that paranoia only fits Town-Tierce here.

Yes, yes, self-meta, WIFOM, call it whatever you want. Go look at my finished games, then look at the descriptions I continuously make of my scum meta and how I keep falling on the same traps

anyway

on every game. I suck at being scum in-thread, but I'm clearly Town here.

With that said, Konowa is probably Town. I can't see scum Konowa

not

doing something like picking up the dead confTown's banner to try and get me lynched if he's going after me.

[Tierce]

It's not so much in regards to meta. It's the fact that you have so much (flawed, but it's there, and posted by confTown) in-thread that you could be using against me. You're not. You're going your own route and going "there is something I can't put my finger on but Tierce reads as scum". It's 1) doing your own scumhunting 2) not being afraid to admit you don't have much of a case i.e. not giving a damn about the lash back you're likely to receive for "wtf how come it's D2 and you don't have a case" and 3) not doing that thing that scum love to do which is to pick up dead Town's case and thump it like a Bible.

You've never played with Tierce-scum and I don't know if you've read any of my scum games, but I kind of tend to be really obvious as scum and lose motivation quickly. The amount of effort I've poured into this game when I could just have gone "screw you guys I'm busy with travel prep + flight + 3 weeks with family" is Tierce-Town. I can say this because I'm sadly still incapable of gathering up that motivation (and--Aeris actually put it really well--charismatic undertone) as scum. My closest one was Paranoia Mafia, and I was still really damn obvious in that game for being extremely opportunistic and having very calculated moves. My scum game shows and it's rather embarrassing. >.>

Good thing I'm never scum, period.

In case people ask while I'm not around, Tierce,

spelt this as fierce first still appropriate

, is based on ongoing so no I can't reference why.

What? I really don't understand that sentence so I don't know what you're going on about.

Tierce, Tierce--it rhymes with fierce--look I would be a bad Westeros character they always die no thank you

[Tierce]

Pffft chicken. I've been awake for about 24 hours and working on sheer stream of consciousness. By now, I feel like I'm slightly drunk and wondering what state I'll be when I go through customs in three-four hours. Come on, little corona of light~

Someone keep me company Faraday said he was 'busy' and I'm guilt-tripping him through a game he's not even playing.

[Tierce]

Stop making me like you such much. It's undermining my read on you. Do you think Aeris/Leaf makes sense as scum, since I think (top of head) you said that, really can't remember one of F16/TuG being scum makes Aeris Town?

Yay for runs.

Aeris still isn't scum, no matter Falcon's flip. So Aeris/Leafsnail isn't a team. No idea about Leafsnail + someone else.

(Also, you liking me is a pretty good indication that I'm not scum. (>")>)

[Tierce]

If you're fully aware that an action will make you look town then you can perform that same action as scum (in fact you were even talking about how attacking an IC would make you town before he died, so you can't say it only occured to you now). I don't get why you're bringing all this up against Konowa considering he has no reasoning at all to back up his vote.

Actually, no, I can't. I'd love to say that being very aware of my scum/Town meta would make me a good scum player, but this is not what happens. It kind of sucks when I'm scum--read my games and you'll see what I mean about my inability to look Town as scum for an extended period of time. I'm like Regfan and Empire in that regard--we give it our all as Town, but damn, playing scum is boring and keeping up that fake scumhunting motivation is a bitch (sadly, even in multiball).

Will address your questions later. I'm currently in JFK waiting for the last leg of my trip, and I frankly can't brain anymore today. ...I don't even know when today started for me any longer, I ended up remembering events of my Lisbon-Dublin flight as if it was weeks ago when it was just yesterday. If I was posting stream-of-consciousness when talking with Konowa earlier (yesterday? timezones? what...?), now anything that requires logical thinking will be reduced to gibberish. It's a wonder I remember my terminal number.

[Tierce]

Oh, I even missed the second bit.

Because I think Konowa is Town and I don't want Town to vote me, I want Town to vote people who have a chance of being scum. Even if Konowa has no reasoning, I am not the kind to go "you have no case!" like Thor is fond of doing--before moving on, I like to show that my play is very indicative of Tierce-Town.

Now there isn't much moving on because I have blatantly not reread and my head is full of very tired cotton.

[Tierce]

I'm also interested in hearing about the Parama question but don't push yourself to answer if you're busy.

I just woke up, and over the next three days I should be somewhat busyish, but I'll try and deal with things ASAP.

(And no, while I can argue with people for the sake of arguing, I also lose motivation for that pretty fast. Seriously, go read some of my games and you'll see the difference in scum/Town meta.)

[Tierce]

never really pushed Leaf or dug into Leaf like I've seen her do.

I think I did?

That said, the first flips mean this game is going WOOOOOSH over my head. I'm kind of distracted these days for obvious reasons. Give me a couple of days and I can tackle this game one night while the other half is at work, we're just enjoying his time off right now.

[Tierce]

You responded to him and explained why what he did was crappy, but never really pushed him on the matter. It reads more as trying to just explain yourself instead of trying to figure out his motivations.

The first time I got a scumread on Leafsnail was on post 138, iirc. So yes, in the early game I was actually 'just explaining myself' instead of pushing him--I was trying to figure out what he was doing, because I thought Leafsnail's attempt at reasoning was coming from a Town mindset, but not a particularly logical one (at all). Making a bad case doesn't mean the bad-case-maker is scum, and I wasn't reading him as such at that point. Goodness knows that I know Town makes crappy cases, but his behavior didn't seem to fit scum motivation.

[Tierce]

Tierce, are you still jetlagged/sleep-deprived? (Incidentally, I'm having trouble sticking to a consistent sleep pattern at the moment, so I know how it must feel.) I'm somewhat concerned about your alignment this game (and not just because of the "Tierce is never town with CFJ" fundamental rule of the universe); it's a little hard to articulate what my problem with your play is, but it feels a little like you're being a little too fixated on trying to be Tiercy, rather than on trying to just sit down and play the game. I'd expect someone who's agitated and busy and whose mind isn't on the game to perhaps post less, or to be less thorough in checking things, or to just make blatant mistakes about the gamestate (see: me in Marketplace Mafia, I was pretty busy during that and the 1-day deadlines didn't help). Instead, you're mostly acting like you normally do, except a bit angrier than usual; there's just as much diligence, but there's various things dotted around that seem a bit suspicious. (The self-meta thing worries me in a way because I'm wondering if Tierce is doing so much work in order to be lazy; if you're not really sure how to look like town, trying to act like you normally do with a bit of extra suspicion thrown around is probably the course of least resistance.)

My flights started on the 17th, morning time, GMT, and ended on the 18th, late evening, PST. I had quite long layovers between the three flights, including a 14h one in Dublin--so during those two days I was actually checking on MS quite often, even if not posting here much. Since then, I've been posting considerably less, because now I am actually busy with doing stuff + jetlag + crazy schedule. I should post more now, because the other half is going to work in a couple of hours--but frankly I need a nap and wrapping gifts, so let's see if I can start rereading before 6 am.

Angry... not really? Don't confuse anger with frustration, which was what I was feeling on D1, iirc. I am less thorough in checking things (I haven't reread yet, for example, other than the occasional ISO to check on a chain of events for a brief comment, nor have I extensively commented on recent posts that do not involve me--recently there hasn't been scumhunting because "not reading" means "I don't have stuff to poke at that wasn't directed at me"), but I do have a good memory and don't forget earlier gamestate things that easily. It seems kind of hard to forget things in a 9p game, anyway.

(Personally, I'm taking it as a compliment that I'm coming across as capable even though my brain is going wheeeee windvane bunny hop bunny hop movies diners night caching card games etc.)


"Doing so much work in order to be lazy"...? What? I don't get it. No, it doesn't work like that, I really do take paths of least resistance as scum and massive post streaks for hours on end is NOT my scum play. My Town meta comes very naturally, and I am rather aware of both my Town and scum meta--but go through my Town and scum games and see how many times I've referenced my scum meta and yet proved incapable of changing it. I really really suck at :effort: as scum.

New meta, for those unaware: I am one head of the Jabberwock hydra and the vast majority of our posts in Mini 1398 are mine. There's quite a bit of "yep haven't reread Day 1 flying by the seat of our

pants

scales here" throughout D2, and the timeline roughly matches this game's.

[Tierce]

Tierce isn't talking about anyone at the moment, Leafsnail. I haven't reread at all to see how the flips affect my thoughts, and there has been quite a lot on my mind that I think a fresh reread might help a lot, so I won't give a half-arsed outdated read.

I'd expect someone who's agitated and busy and whose mind isn't on the game to perhaps post less, or to be less thorough in checking things

...this seems like it would have been the perfect excuse for Tierce-scum to lurk during a period of agitation, and I didn't take it. The periods of high-activity posting you are referring to seem to fit with a couple of days before my trip + the layovers (frankly haven't checked, can't be bothered atm, and my memory of those 44 hours of traveling is all fuzzy). The fact that I

did

keep posting should be reading to you as someone who is invested and interested in the game, and anyone who knows me knows what that means about my alignment (...this is pretty sad re: what it means for my scum meta).

Of course, the last two-three RL days are all :hitoshrug: because I skim this thread for my name and then go out the door again. >.> <.< There are pugs to play with, stop looking at me like that.

[Tierce]

Oooh I think I see it. You're comparing my play here to your Mini Normal game?

You're making the wrong comparison. I had far more time/patience/willingness/what have you before the 19th in this game than I have now--the correct comparison is now = my Scumburgh + Ireland V/LA behavior in that game.

(Thankfully,

this

game has decent human beings for players afaik.)

[Tierce]

You're town, btw. I set at least two traps for you in my replacement-in post, and you didn't bite on either of them.

(Perhaps just because you don't remember my meta as well as I hope you did.)

How do either my inability to spot/bite on traps (I didn't see any of them, but I am very visibly skimming) or, more importantly, my scatterbrained state/forgetfulness of your meta make me Town? This doesn't seem to make much sense.

(You could have

asked

, I would have told you I'm Town. >.>)

[Tierce]

Prod dodge. Reading 24 pages shouldn't be a chore, especially when I don't have to read Falcon's posts other than for confTown opinions, but. ._.

[Tierce]

>.> Still not today. /dodges the mod-prod

[Tierce]

Quick post before (hopefully Today) I go through this.

Konowa, what are your thoughts on Leafsnail's idea of a Tierce/Parama scumteam when you say that Tierce/Leafsnail is ''entirely possible'? In parallel, how does that color your view of a Leafsnail/Trevor team--do you think Leafsnail is just going for any potential mislynch instead of risking lynching a buddy? (i.e. your view of a Tierce/Leafsnail team and him pushing Parama and me.)

[Tierce]

I very rarely vote to make a point/get reactions/whatever. I vote to lynch (like in that case); if my mind is changed afterwards, I make adjustments accordingly. "Making my opinion known" seems to be pretty pointless if it isn't "I think this person is Town/scum and shouldn't/should get lynched Today".

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: Leafsnail

Do you think Trevor is scum right now?

[Tierce]

Explain that unvote, cfj.

[Tierce]

So, now I'll ask; given that you can vote for Leafsnail without having to hammer for him, you expressed suspicion of him earlier, and he seems like the most viable lynch today right now, why didn't you vote for him? Have you changed your mind yourself?

I haven't reread yet. I thought this was pretty obvious.

In fact please do anything that isn't "wait for someone to get lynched".

Nah~

(i.e. see above; note that not only I'm not talking about Parama, but I'm only addressing everyone's most recent posts anyway. It's not localized in any manner, so you should be able to tell that this is me just going wheeeee I have 99

problems

ways of having fun and this game ain't one. Yes, yes, I know, I need to get back into it for realz.)

[Tierce]

The logic there is that plurality lynch works by seniority of the last vote; Parama was making sure the older L-2 was on Leafsnail over Konowa. Yes, it's premature, but not awful reasoning.

[Tierce]

@Konowa: I was also interested in whether she'd hammer, but IMO you actually pushing her to hammer rather screwed the test up…

So I guess we both had the same objective, and opposite methods to achieve it.

Is that what 642 was trying to get at?

Yes.

It had another purpose, too. I'm trying to work out, if Tierce is scum, who her partner is. I think either it's Parama, or she wants people to think it's Parama, and the response helped reinforce that. (Or, of course, that she isn't scum.) Parama seems too OK with it for it to all be a bluff, though. Tierce/Leafsnail is another thing I've been considering quite a bit, but I think it's a bit less likely at the moment.

Where did you start scumreading me?

[Tierce]

666 is all sorts of yuck, cfj. You've been trying to hedge a scumread on me that you know makes no sense when you consider my meta. You, of all people, have no right to scumread me at present in a legitimate manner.

On tablet, need more sleep, going into town later. The good news is that this game is drawing my interest again and I want to comb it for partnerships asap.

[Tierce]

Hmm.

VOTE: callforjudgement

Sad Tierce. Why can't we be awesome Town together.

[Tierce]

Calling me either alignment on shitty reasoning (for reactions? Really now) is totally unlike your Townplay, and I know one of your main issues as scum is producing legitimate reads that follow a string of thought and mirror your reads' reasoning as Town. You get far too opportunistic and without a logical train of thought and train of analysis.

Come on, then. Let's dance.

And yes, I am concerned about your read on me because your read on me makes no SENSE from cfj Town. Look at all the damns I give about Leafsnail and about Konowa's pretty tinfoil hat. But YOU have no excuses not to have a more developed read.

[Tierce]

Aeris: cfj and Konowa aren't scum together.

[Tierce]

Honestly, look at the crap you're trying to promote. "Tierce claims she has no time, but she keeps trying to participate with what little reading she has done and is defending herself as well." In what world is this indication of scum motivation? I've had the perfect excuses to lurk and make shitty catch up posts, yet I keep trying to participate from what I do have that doesn't need deep analysis: D2. Flying by the seat of my pants does NOT match any kind of scum Tierce agenda, yet you're trying to push accurate meta analysis as invalid because I'm the one bringing it to the table. Yeeeeah no.

Your waffling on me was bad and you should feel bad. Aeris was a safe Townread for you, but you couldn't pass up the chance to lynch me so you backtracked in a completely uncharacteristic manner. No. Bad cfj. Scum cfj. Rope-dangling cfj.

[Tierce]

So I decided to set a third trap to replace them: to call you town based on that evidence even though it wasn't strong at all; Muffin (possibly unintentionally) caught me like that quite effectively in my second newbie game (things ended up working out for me eventually that game, but it was a hellish day 2), and I thought the technique might work here. It's very unsettling as scum to have genuinely believed someone read you as town, and then find out that they weren't actually reading you like that at all. It's rather less unsettling as town, because being misread as scum when you're actually town is no big deal, especially when it's only by one player.

It has nothing to do with unsettling, and everything to do with it being a shitty read reversal. I did call you on that Townread not making sense:

You're town, btw. I set at least two traps for you in my replacement-in post, and you didn't bite on either of them.

(Perhaps just because you don't remember my meta as well as I hope you did.)

How do either my inability to spot/bite on traps (I didn't see any of them, but I am very visibly skimming) or, more importantly, my scatterbrained state/forgetfulness of your meta make me Town? This doesn't seem to make much sense.

(You could have

asked

, I would have told you I'm Town. >.>)

Oh hey, I do have a sealed-envelope kind of thing:

UNVOTE: Leafsnail

Do you think Trevor is scum right now?

Explain that unvote, cfj.

The only way that unvote made sense to me at the time was if you thought Trevor was scum, as he was the only one not in risk of hammering Leafsnail aside from your two proclaimed Townreads (Aeris and I). I kept trying to figure out the evolution of your read on me. I was

scumhunting you

(figure that!), because understanding your train of thought is important if I'm putting myself in your position.

Laying down shitty reads and then claiming you were doing it for reactions while harking back to one game in which someone else did it effectively is an excuse that fits scumplay pretty well, so no, you can't say that me thinking it's scummy of you to do it.

And yes, that vote is very opportunistic. Leafsnail is interested in voting me. So is Konowa, as far as anyone can tell. That's L-1 with your own vote. You have not really addressed either the Leafsnail wagon or the Trevor wagon since jumping off the former; creating a third wagon on a mislynch target allows you to go back to either of those on Rarefaction.

Konowa's paranoia is well documented. It has happened pretty much everywhere we have played together. You, however, have been ridiculously waffly and have done very little for all the posting you're doing. It's Rarefaction Tonight if I'm lynched--so where are your pair analysis? Who is my scumbuddy? Stop positing teams and start giving justifications for those. Aside from those first catch-up posts (which could well have been legitimate if you were following along and were working off your initial reads when you didn't know alignments), I'm yet to be impressed by most anything you pour into this thread. Go on.


See above for how my reaction has nothing to do with guille's. I do, in fact, have evidence of having been hunting the reasoning behind the evolution of your reads, and it wasn't defense as much as analyzing

you

.

[Tierce]

EBWOP:

The only way that unvote made sense to me at the time was if you thought Trevor was scum, as he was the only one

not

in risk of hammering Leafsnail aside from your two proclaimed Townreads (Aeris and I).

And I've had enough of getting up from the bed to type longer replies. Further

yelling at scumreads

responses will wait till later.

tl;dr

lynch callforjudgement.

[Tierce]

before I look at a couple things that. Othered me again.

Stay away from the wights. Being Othered is not a good life plan.

[Tierce]

Child, please

Hai Sveeta you need to update your first post re: replacements.

I need to go over StefanB. And over the whole game but this isn't news for anyone. (>")> Today is time for friends, Cards Against Humanity and The Hobbit (again ^_^), though.

[Tierce]

(A slightly related point here: Tierce did push back against me calling her town, but it was just one post and then she dropped the issue. Then she picked it back up after she realised I was still leaning scum on her. If she was reading me as scum from it, which is reasonable, I'd have expected her to push immediately rather than only when it seemed like her life might potentially be in danger.)

I wasn't reading you as scum from one Townread alone. However, the combination of a lousy Townread and justifying it as "lolreactions" is really terrible.

And I'm thinking about what I'm posting. I

am

trying to put myself in a position where, as cfj-Town, you would not know my alignment, and I'm worried about you analysis

now

, not in an hypothetical future where I get lynched.

Either way, Tierce out.

[Tierce]

I promise I will actually spend more time on this game tomorrow and won't let myself get distracted.

Reading through Trevor, I noticed something puzzling though.

He says in Post 120 that aceofspades is too easy, no scum motivation.
He says in Post 162 that Leafsnail and tierce are town. And he won't hammer parama.
He says in Post 226 that he'll join any convincing wagon that is not tug/parama/aceofspades. What happened to his town reads on tierce and Leafsnail? He only had one post between the two and only interacted with me and falcon and was voting falcon.
He votes Leafsnail in Post 302 for a post that he thinks reads fake about leaf attacking parama and says he's also interested in lynching konowa.

He votes konowa later and then does the self-preservation thing in voting tug (who he previously said he wouldn't vote for)

Mainly what's bothering me is his seemingly forgetting that he had given town reads to Leafsnail and tierce when he gave his list of whose wagon he wouldn't join. I don't have a problem with the lack of consistency necessarily, but it doesn't read very organic. It's almost as if he's forgetting who he's given town reads to and is throwing out names for the sake of it.

Reminding myself to look into this when I get back.

[Tierce]

@Tierce: do you think that people "ought" to be reading you as town/obvtown? As in, do you think you've been townish enough that game that you'd expect the majority of people to read you as town?

Obviously yes. If you aren't scum, go read my interaction with Falcon and the entirety of my early game.

Aeris is right that your reasoning for us being scum together makes very little sense, and I would have expected you to notice that our interactions make no sense as a scumteam.

[Tierce]

...Scum to scum crumb. Really now. So you are completely and utterly unaware that Parama tends to troll hammer pretty much everywhere and I've seen his trollish attitude since my first game with him, which was

my second game on the site

. Yes, let's scumtalk in-thread, that makes a whole lot of sense.

You're BoPing me with the Town flips. Frankly, fuck off. I am pissed at the Falcon flip, because I was genuinely convinced he was scum, but look at all the fucks I give about Thor and Majiffy. Their playstyle is insufferable, I was reading them as scum because of said playstyle, and went into full on :JUSTICE:. Yes, come tell me about how not giving reads and refusing to cooperate is totally proTown. You're abusing the fact that you weren't here and cannot be called on your own reads yet to BoP people. Didn't you see me lynch Shmugen in Mafia with the Kitties? Oversoul in Worst Role Mafia (he wasn't Town, but neither was he scum, but yeah I still have no fucking regrets etc.). How many times do I push mislynches

as Town

?

As for claiming I'm obvTown--once again, kindly bugger off. I did so in Mostly Mute Martyr Mafia: Haiku Redux. I did so in Chrono Trigger. I do so in plenty of games. The only Town game I can hark back to where I didn't think I was obvTown is Otherworld Mafia, and

I was incredibly pissed off about it

. I don't give a crap if the playerlist is too blind to see it. If you can't tell I'm Town when I'm Town, you're either bad or scum. If you are Town--you're refusing to listen to someone who has a lot of meta on me (and recent one, too). I can't begin to say how much it pisses me off that you're going "lalalala don't care about Aeris's opinion on Tierce and oh btw let me ignore Aeris and Tierce's statements about how my pair read for them makes no sense".

Your pushes are ridiculous and reek of fake paranoia. You don't do fake paranoia as Town--one can tell where your paranoia comes from and what is the rationale behind it. Here you're trying to justify paranoia with "oh well I'm in tunnel mode", when not so long ago you were not so taken by a Tierce scumread as to voice it. Look at that "reread in double ISO" for "behavior" without giving a crap about motivations. What are you looking for in "behavior", anyway?

Night actions?

I was pushing him because I thought he was scum. Good luck looking through my scum meta for such vigorous pushes without giving a shit about my image.

You want the kicker? If you were not Townreading me,

why would you wait

until three days to deadline

to voice it?

You didn't seem to be making any particular actual effort to clarify a read on me before this date. Whatever your motives, you were trying to bait me into a Leafsnail wagon and apparently proposing a false dilemma with it; you would likely have called it scummy if I had voted him, and didn't seem to go anywhere with the fact that my read on Leafsnail stalled out because I haven't read.


Yuck. Will one of you flake and let someone like Empire/Regfan replace in? Please and thank you.

[Tierce]

Honestly, look at this stuff. Look at the

dates

shown on each quote. Does it make sense for cfj to reveal a "conflicted read" three days to deadline without trying to figure out partnerships in the meantime? Not as Town, but it definitely works to fuel another mislynch as scum. (And yes, Konowa, you're not voting me, but you have expressed a gut scumread on me, so I assume you'd vote me.)

~Vote Count XXIV

Trevor (L-3) ~ Parama
Leafsnail (L-3) ~ Trevor
Tierce (L-3) ~ Konowa
Konowa (L-3) ~ Aeris
Parama (L-3) ~ Leafsnail

Not Voting:

callforjudgement (StefanB), Tierce

-StefanB is being replaced. Please hold...

-callforjudgement replaces StefanB. Welcome him!

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is December 31, 2012 (in (expired on 2012-12-31 21:00:00)).

~Vote Count XXX

Leafsnail (L-2) ~

callforjudgement,

Konowa, Parama
Konowa (L-2) ~ Aeris, Trevor
Parama (L-3) ~ Leafsnail

Not Voting:

Tierce, callforjudgement

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is December 31, 2012 (in (expired on 2012-12-31 21:00:00)).

I've had a conflicted read on you all game, and still do. (When I called you town on really not a lot of evidence, I was lying; I was leaning slightly town then, but wasn't nearly as confident in my read as I sounded. I know I've never lied about a read as town before, but I felt I had to do something a little unexpected in order to get a reaction out of you.)

I'm still not sure whether you're scum, but working out what teams including you make sense is a good way to confirm or deny the theory.

666 is all sorts of yuck, cfj. You've been trying to hedge a scumread on me that you know makes no sense when you consider my meta. You, of all people, have no right to scumread me at present in a legitimate manner.

On tablet, need more sleep, going into town later. The good news is that this game is drawing my interest again and I want to comb it for partnerships asap.

Well, if you consider my meta with you, it's that I'm no good at reading you, and I know it. (Not sure if you know it too.) So I have to try something a bit unusual.

I

really

don't like your responses, recently, though.

In fact,
VOTE: Tierce

You seem really concerned about my read on you, and that doesn't fit my Tierce townmeta at all. In Mafia with the Kitties, I read you wrong (which was quite impressive seeing as I was scum), but you were indeed town that game, and you weren't really feeling the need to try to explain yourself repeatedly, or fall back on selfmeta. (Especially because I'm not convinced your selfmeta is accurate, and

especially

because you've been talking about how events in your life mean your meta doesn't apply perfectly this game; you can't have it both ways.) Town Tierce just sits around scumhunting and lets her play do the talking.

Now, not having time to reread is OK; I can understand that. Having time to snipe at people attacking you and come up with cases defending yourself while not having time to reread, though, is something else.

What's more--look at his reason to vote me in the quote above. He has admitted this reasoning is completely wrong, yet is still trying to push me as scum on the Town flips of the people I've pushed and "claiming to be obvTown when you're not". His analysis of partnerships is flimsy and without substance, just riding on Leafsnail's Tierce/Parama coat tails.
Since when is stuff like this scummy, when cfj is not looking at motivations, nor looking at the one person he has called Town and analyzed her read on me for what it actually is (instead of misrepping stuff like "charismatic undertone ---> pushing cases without logic"--other than doing this, he hasn't actually addressed Aeris's read on me)?

[Tierce]

...I'm not defending Parama? I'm defending the absurdity of a Parama/Tierce team because

I

am clearly not scum. Get real.

[Tierce]

After I wake up today (which will probably only be in the evening anyway, since my own computer is having power issues). Besides busyness and general pugs-are-cooler-than-Mafia, I wanted to wait for havingfitz's input, but so much for that.

[Tierce]

Tierce, you have just over a day. Please stop stalling.

I know, but frankly it's not stalling, my activity dropped across the board. I haven't been around much, and my laptop isn't working, so I'm reduced to hijacking the fiance's computer/tablet.

FYI, I probably won't be around at deadline. And I won't be voting a counterwagon just for the sake of

not

getting lynched, because that's simply postponing my lynch for Tomorrow (i.e. Rarefaction) if we lynch Town Today--and

that

would definitely be a Town loss. (I can see cfj raising the "omg Tierce pushed three Town people and is being survivalistic" flag already, when the hilarious part is that I'm both not selfish as Town and I know how not to be survivalistic as scum, see Experimental Role Mafia.) I'm going over the game today as soon as I get something to eat.

(We should REALLY lynch cfj.)

/rambling post
/needs something to eat

[Tierce]

Sidenote: Very impressive looking F16 Post 299 though it could have used a tl:dr. Otherwise I'm getting a bit glossy eyed at the F16-Tierce back and forth.

You missed the part where his meta read is flawed all over. The best meta reads on the site on me are:

• Empire (as Cerulean) on Open 463
  Regfan on A Dance With Dragons (search for "Tierce" and "Tyene", I'm playing under a flavor alt)
  Aeris in this game

Go through those. These players know me in and out and have seen me play as scum and Town; there is a reason I was very frustrated when Faraday/Regfan replaced into Open 463. I was scum in Open 463, Town in ADwD, but that's beside the point--a good meta analysis talks about Town AND scum play, so you can look at the descriptions of my playstyle (and look through my recent scum meta of Open 463 for my blatant inability to switch it around much ._.) and you'll see I'm really obvious Town here. Yeah, I'm being pretty useless. (>")> But I'm Town.

F-16 was probably impressed with Empire's meta case and wanted to do the same, but he got it horribly wrong.

[Tierce]

Okay food seriously.

[Tierce]

Wheee this is going to take forever. I'm pretty sure Aeris is Town, but for the sake of tinfoil, etc.

Aeris / Konowa
Aeris / Leafsnail
Aeris / Parama
Aeris / callforjudgement (StefanB, theaceofspades)
Aeris / havingfitz (Trevor)
Konowa / Leafsnail
Konowa / Parama
Konowa / callforjudgement (StefanB, theaceofspades)
Konowa / havingfitz (Trevor)
Leafsnail / Parama
Leafsnail / callforjudgement (StefanB, theaceofspades)
Leafsnail / havingfitz (Trevor)
Parama / callforjudgement (StefanB, theaceofspades)
Parama / havingfitz (Trevor)
callforjudgement (StefanB, theaceofspades) / havingfitz (Trevor)

Off we go.

[Tierce]

Screw the Aeris partnerships. She's Town, she's putting in too much effort in this game for someone I know dislikes being scum and could have used the holidays as far more of an excuse than she has. I don't need the extra tinfoil, I don't have the attention span to go through 5 extra pairings when it's pretty clear she's Town.

Spoiler: Theory tangent.

The issue with the pairings analysis is that they only need a Rarefaction mislynch to win. However, on early D1 (before Falcon claimed), maybe we will be able to discern something, given that they don't know who the IC was and that they didn't know which of them would end up in a LyLo block with the IC (granted, that doesn't mean the IC wouldn't be able to pick out the scum player from his block, but it would make it harder on scum than just 2 LyLo blocks with no confirmed players).

Incidentally, this makes me think that optimal Town play in future games of this setup might be not to claim at all? That might result on a D1 IC lynch, but it could also establich a more nervous scumteam. Theory thought, irrelevant right now, etc.

Went through her bit on Trevor, and I want to vote havingfitz on that alone. She's right--it isn't an organic line of thought. And while, at the time, Trevor's hammer justification seemed acceptable to me, I know that scum can be honest in that manner and I shouldn't take it as a Towntell. (As Sixty, we blatantly admitted that our Voidedmafia quickhammer on D1 of Open 463 was a survivalistic move.)

The one thing that is bothering me on Aeris is that her latest absence (when she

has

been around elsewhere) results on her sitting on a L-3 wagon less than 24h to deadline. Where is the interest in compromising for a necessary lynch? She lurks as scum, but her absence doesn't match the scum absences I've seen from her. It just reads as sloppy play, so get back in here and say why we should be compromising on Konowa or move your vote.

On to Konowa pairings, Trevor can wait.

[Tierce]

Konowa - why have you not mentioned Trevor once the entire game? What do you think about his hammer yesterday?

Oi.

...but cfj is scum.

[Tierce]

Good~

[Tierce]

I don't know what to make of that though because that beans fritters flaps post read townish.

It did, didn't it? :/

I'm really leaning toward Konowa and Trevor at this point, their interactions (or lack thereof) are pretty awful. Post incoming in a few minutes.


(And you don't want to be an Innocent Child

ever

, trust me. I've been one--being an unknown IC, like I was in Maf.Triplicate, is a tad better than the default you-are-confirmed-from-gamestart one, because the latter one royally fucks up one's scumhunting ability due to the change in everyone's interactions with you. It causes a lot of posturing from both scum and Town.)

[Tierce]

havingfitz's "D1 catch-up" was a whole lot of nothing. It's just stating events as they happened, some vague opinions, and doesn't nearly get the levels of definitive reactions I recall from him in ERM and cfj's Mini Normal. He knew he was replacing in close to deadline in a game where Tomorrow is LyLo if we mislynch, so what he has so far does not impress because it doesn't show any measure of focusing on what is important--picking a lynch for Today asap.

Then we have the Konowa and Trevor interactions.

Thor is already hard enough to read, being in a hydra just means we need to lynch him now so he can't be super unreadable.

Agreed 100% no doubt about it.

[b[Vote: Konowa[/b]

Also, what if there's a tie at the deadline?

Lazy, Parama.

Read it last night, don't feel like scrolling the page on my phone.

vote: Konowa

unvote

Tierce, why so passive agressive with Leaf?

It seems weird that he wouldn't address Trevor's vote. Yes, it might have been RVS, but it doesn't mesh with Konowa's natural curiosity to not even poke at Trevor's vote.

Sorry guys, still posting from my phone until tomorrow. Gave the game a reread though

Only interesting thing that has happened so far died out just as fast as it started. TUG had no reaction to it at all.

Seems like Leafsnail and Konowa only post in questions

VOTE: Aeris

List of questions feel contrived as if you don't have anything valuable to add but are desperately posting fluff.

Vote: Fighting

He calls out Leafsnail and Konowa as only posting in questions, but there is no concern for motivations behind those. No analysis. In turn, he votes Falcon for, it seems, having voted Aeris for fluffy questions--so what makes Falcon different from Trevor himself, i.e. pointing out "these people are just making questions"?

Trevor is PFFT. Don't like how he makes sure to say that he's also interested in voting konowa but doesn't vote him. And konowa has not only been missing from this thread but has really put in next to nothing here.

I like Leafsnail more. However, in the interest of time:

Vote: Konowa

Leafsnail is scumread #1, Konowa scumread #2. This is important.

OK, no one is budging on the Konowa wagon. With the deadline coming up, I'm not getting lynched over TUG. Going to be out for most of Saturday.

Vote: TUG

The deadline/plurality hammer vote.

Guess I should vote.

Vote: Tierce

Not sure about anything else.

Really quick iso+ctrlf of Tierce on Trevor, again pangs. Trevor/Tierce makes sense. Not going to explain tonight. I'm at work waiting for close so I can do inventory. Plus small amounts of vodkaredbull.

He never explains Trevor/Tierce as a pairing.

Trevor - id like for you to explain your thought process. Why did you think you were a contender for lynch? Why did you hammer when you had stated more than once you had a town read on tug and you weren't going to hammer? Especially before more conversation could be had?

Trevor: Did you think that TUG was probably going to be lynched without your hammer? If so, why hammer? If not, was it because of ignorance of the rules or a belief that you would be lynched? Who do you think was likely to lynch you?

The Konowa lynch had no support and wasn't going to get through. Yes, I didn't want TUG lynched, but there was a possibility of him being scum. I thought he was likely to get lynched, but I was unsure about my own safety as no one has really given a true read on me yet.

Trevor's explanation of his vote. He's voting Leafsnail at this point.

I'm forcing myself to get into this game. Been a rough past week for me, all things considering. Just so you know where my head is: Tierce/Trevor or Tierce/Leafsnail. I'm having a hard time articulating why I think Tierce is scum. Has to do with her early game play in regards to Leafsnail (I think I said something about her being passive agressive). That may not have been the right phrase, but Leaf made a comment that Tierce just made a flyby comment too and if I remember correctly, never really pushed Leaf or dug into Leaf like I've seen her do.

As far as Trevor, I really don't remember anything about his D1 play, just that his vote switch to TuG seemed off. I'll actually have to go back and read and see what is what.

This is not any kind of "Trevor/Tierce makes sense" analysis.

Leaf, who is Trevor scum with?

Seems a rather strange question to ask one of his scumreads about the other, but I admit this is sheer gut + I don't think I'd make that kind of question myself.

Like, you name Trevor the most scummy by himself, and name a Tierce/Parama, but don't try to find a possible partner for Trevor.

This is to Leafnsil, referring to the above. He's voting me, but apparently trying to push Leafsnail--at this point I start getting lost on Konowa's reads.

Really think it's Tierce/Leafsnail.

Other than the fact that this read makes no sense whatsoever (has Konowa ever read a scum game of mine), where did the Trevor suspicion go?

I think Konowa is still the second scum. His conversation with Leafsnail seems contrived and they're putting no pressure on each other, just asking basic questions.

Vote: Leafsnail

He was already voting Leafsnail. This post feels very bland. There is still no prodding at motivations, and Trevor is

certainky

not putting any pressure on Konowa himself. A hapless D1 vote with no support as a counterwagon to the Thor/Majiffy hydra doesn't count as pressure.

Vote: Konowa

Promise me you'll get Leafsnail next.

Bland, again. The VC looked like this:

~Vote Count XXV

Trevor (L-3) ~ Parama
Tierce (L-3) ~ Konowa
Konowa (L-3) ~ Aeris
Parama (L-3) ~ Leafsnail
Leafsnail (L-3) ~

(Trevor,)

Trevor

Not Voting:

callforjudgement, Tierce

-Konowa is being prodded...

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is December 31, 2012 (in (expired on 2012-12-31 21:00:00)).

just before Trevor's vote shift. There is really no weight behind this vote.

Okay, so here is my brief takeaway after a much needed break from everything.

I still am of the belief that a Tierce/Leafsnail scum team is entirely possible given their early game interactions that came across as forced to me. I believe given conversation and timing of Leafs’ vote in 554, as I discussed in 572, and how he has for the most part ignored Tierce while pushing what I still believe to be a policy vote on Parama, while ignoring Trevor (will get to this in a minute), is perfect scum play.

Now that being said, after looking over the game with fresh eyes, I am starting to believe that Leafsnail/Trevor is more likely to be the scum duo in this game. I think Leafs’ push on Parama for “his play has no town motivation” while ignoring Trevor who has done nothing this game comes across as false. Also, 577 and 592.

unvote;
Vote: Leafsnail

Konowa has been dancing with a Leafsnail/Trevor/Tierce team for a while now. But he votes Tierce/Leafsnail, never going for Trevor--possibly because a Tierce/Leafsnail Townflip might enable him to hop onto the other/push a lynch on the other before Trevor, causing a loss at Rarefaction (depending on block format).

I think that given game mechanics, pre-game scum would be more likely to try and go for two mislynches than risk lynching a buddy and being screwed over by possible cell arrangement with possible triggered IC still in play. I think with D1 mislynch and outting of F16 as IC D1 and his death N1, scum would be -more- eager to try and push for a mislynch D2 as we would then go into Rarefaction where Town has to lynch correctly from both cells to win.

So now onto actual gameplay. In short, is Leafsnail going for any potential mislynch, yes. I think a Tierce/Leafsnail scumteam where Leafsnail is pushing a Tierce/Parama team, or even a Trevor/Tierce scumteam (567), but not trying to determine the most likely duo who would be scum together fits what I think scum would try and do.

This still feels very messy. There is no really analysis of partnerships. We're back to Tierce/Leafsnail--where is Trevor now?

I think that given Parama's townread on me and what he said, to prevent me from topping out at plurality, that it is very town motivated. If you disagree, why?

Why do you no longer think Trevor is scum?

He's aware Leafsnail's read on Trevor is changing, so he hasn't actually forgotten Trevor himself, but Trevor appears and disappears from Konowa's reads.

I will try and get to more of this before deadline, but weekend work and all. I'll probably have some time on my break this afternoon and tomorrow morning.

And yes, that vote is very opportunistic. Leafsnail is interested in voting me.

So is Konowa, as far as anyone can tell.

That's L-1 with your own vote. You have not really addressed either the Leafsnail wagon or the Trevor wagon since jumping off the former; creating a third wagon on a mislynch target allows you to go back to either of those on Rarefaction.

This was interesting to me, given how I’ve gone about voting Today.

Yeah you were trying to get a reaction. That reaction was an early hammervote. What I am trying to do is get you to come clean about your actual motivation, because at the moment you seem to be lying about it.

Yes, I wanted to see if Tierce would hammer you, but given that I think you are scum I really don't see what the issue with this is. Again you are trying to incriminate me based on a single aspect of the entire situation. You trying to qualify the hammervote as early is pretty awful. Deadline lynches are awful in general, especially this one given that deadline is New Years Eve and I –highly- doubt there will be enough to muster a swing.

@Vi: Any chance of extension with Trevor replacement? Puppy eyes and ball in return?

1) Requesting an extension is not a Towntell. I've seen it done by scum and I've done it as scum. It's cheap Townpoints.

2) What was "interesting" about me thinking he would vote me? Konowa has been trying to paint me as part of a scumteam, and as Town he should have no problem lynching me over Leafsnail if Tierce/Leafsnail seems like a viable pairing. Note that he's not calling me Town.

3) He didn't really get any sort of conclusion from me not hammering Leafsnail. If he was calling us buddies before, where is the analysis of my not-hammer? He seems to think me more Townish after this post, but again, this isn't stated openly.

Not liking this push on Tierce at all. There are certain aspects that are bothering me. I will try and pin all that down after c[______].

What what what. How come Tierce is suddenly someone not to push.

Okay. Found what was bothering me.
Tierce, you have just over a day. Please stop stalling.
Aeris and fitz need to post as well.
Still think it's Leaf/fitz.

"Still" think it's Leafsnail/havigfitz (Trevor)? The last we heard was a Tierce/Leafsnail team.


UNVOTE: callforjudgement (you're lucky others are scummier than you (>")> but how come you've ignored this trove of interaction weirdness?)
VOTE: Konowa

I don't think I have the brain to do the other partnerships Tonight, unfortunately. Should definitely have started earlier. FWIW, Konowa-scum will bus without remorse, even when a game is effectively White Flag for scum (IceGuy's Reverse Mafia Redux).

[Tierce]

Also, trying to qualify anyone's interactions with Trevor is awful.

I'm an awful person, then. (>")>

[Tierce]

Konowa's rationale for supporting a TUG lynch was suspect.

bahahahaha

This is your opinion of an RVS vote? This is more important than the rest of the game?

Come on.

[Tierce]

Konowa's rationale for supporting a TUG lynch was suspect.

bahahahaha

This is your opinion of an RVS vote? This is more important than the rest of the game?

Come on.

Mind, this was in reference to Konowa's Post 10.

[Tierce]

Tierce you are scum aren't you? That's sad. If you really thought I was scum bussing without remorse as someone who can apply meta very well, as scum with Trevor/fitz wouldn't I have voted him when Parama called me on it. Your entire case seems based on that one line of me bussing but ignoring the fact that I am not bussing who you think I am scum with.

So what's your plan? Banking on Aeris not unvoting since she hasn't moved her vote all day and having fitz and possibly Leaf swing?

unvote;

Uhm, no, it has nothing to do with "one line of you bussing"...? I just added it because I know you can do it, but you were the very same who said you thought scum would go for as many mislynches as possible in this game. Your reads' evolution isn't making any sense, you're dancing around the same group of people and flowing left and right without ever flowing center. It doesn't read as someone who is actually trying to pinpoint two scum out of a group of three--it's manufactured.

And I am obviously not scum. Don't even try that one~

My plan is to lynch you and havingfitz. Seems pretty simple.

[Tierce]

(You'll be up for a while yet then, I tend to go to bed at 7 am Vegas time wooo)

[Tierce]

~Vote Count XXXV

Tierce (L-2) ~ callforjudgement, Leafsnail
Konowa (L-3) ~ Aeris

L

e

a

f

s

n

a

i

l

(

L

-

3

)

~

K

o

n

o

w

a

callforjudgement (L-3) ~ Tierce
havingfitz (L-3) ~ Parama

Not Voting:

(Parama,)

havingfitz

--With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
--Deadline is January 2, 2013 (in

(expired on 2013-01-02 21:00:00)

).

Mind explaining why you're voting this person you have proclaimed to be my scumbuddy AND not putting me at L-1 in the process, Konowa?

[Tierce]

And you... unvoted him because...?

[Tierce]

Don't need. I'm fine with my vote.

[Tierce]

WIFOM, of course.

LOOK FALCON I CAN DO IT TOO

I'm still the largest wagon via plurality. That vote wasn't doing anything for scum Konowa that an unvote or vote on another Town wagon won't do. Town Konowa who truly believed his words would be doing

something

, up to and including explaining himself and the non-organic flow of his reads.

[Tierce]

I am

not

accusing you of bussing. I answered that already in 755. What I'm saying is that you and the havingfitz slot have been playing musical chairs at distancing and pushing Town all game, and that one of you is getting lynched Today.

[Tierce]

FWIW, Konowa-scum will bus without remorse, even when a game is effectively White Flag for scum (IceGuy's Reverse Mafia Redux).

This says you're capable of bussing, and I've seen it happen in Reverse Mafia. It's a note, not more than that, and I have ALREADY explained it as such.

[Tierce]

I think that given game mechanics, pre-game scum would be more likely to try and go for two mislynches than risk lynching a buddy and being screwed over by possible cell arrangement with possible triggered IC still in play. I think with D1 mislynch and outting of F16 as IC D1 and his death N1, scum would be -more- eager to try and push for a mislynch D2 as we would then go into Rarefaction where Town has to lynch correctly from both cells to win.

THIS is what I think you're doing. The point on bussing is that, unlike me, you do not have issues with mentioning and going after your buddies. (And yes, Leafsnail, answering a question posed to Parama counts as being aware of and mentioning him, so don't go after that silly Tierce/Parama team--if I die Today, go after Konowa and havingfitz.)

[Tierce]

...

So... because I think you are NOT bussing in this game, but because I think you ARE distancing AND you ARE capable of bussing, this is "having the cake and eating it". Stop misrepping, you know they mean different things. Scum won't use the same tactics in every single game, that would make games delightfully easy. You know I am aware of your meta and you know what my description of your meta is, after all. I believe you are capable of adapting some to the circumstances, but I think your behavior so far matches a scum partnership with the havingfitz slot. Not rocket surgery.

[Tierce]

What I'm saying is that if you've read my two completed scum games you would see that I suck as scum and that I am really passive and just comment instead of trying to engage. Meta queen, I know you've read Steam Library Madness.

1) I haven't. 2) Nope, you do not suck as scum. We were reading you as Town in Reverse Mafia for a good long while, after all.

Producing a scum game for analysis doesn't really mean anything when anyone can look for those resources.

Why am I not surprised by that vote~

UNVOTE: Konowa
VOTE: havingfitz

There, that's an L-1 without seniority. You lot have fun, I'm going to spend my evening doing something other than worry about this game.

[Tierce]

By the by, anytime you want to explain that vote other than "omg Tierce is not reading me correctly" (which, once more, does not speak to my motivations), I'll be here.

[Tierce]

Many of your transitions have no reasoning, implicit or explicit. Especially the last one, where you call "

STILL

Leaf/fitz", and saying you found the wagon on me suspect.

You CANNOT justify coming after me this Day when you have done so from the start of D2 by simply using 'gut' and not explaining how any of those teams makes any sense. This includes, in particular, the Leafsnail/Tierce team, which makes no sense in the context of how I usually interact (or not) with my scumbuddies, and the Trevor/Tierce team, which you never ever EVER explained as a team. I'll be here all night~

And yes, I was calling you Town before. So? My read shift is explained, unlike yours.

[Tierce]

Really. I dare anyone to look at the evolution of Konowa's reads on me, Leafsnail and Trevor/havingfitz. That ain't natural or progressive-Town in any manner.

[Tierce]

You're twisting in the beginning of 779. You didn't try to see why I found the push on you suspect.

I didn't need to...?:

Not liking this push on Tierce at all. There are certain aspects that are bothering me. I will try and pin all that down after c[______].

Still think it's Leaf/fitz.

This makes it pretty clear that you're not coming after me, but after those two. (Or supposedly, anyway, since you never actually pushed havingfitz/Trevor via votes that mattered, but just Leafsnail and me.) So tell me how I am twisting

anything

here.

I'm glad you think I have no self respect. You are scum.

X

times two.

[Tierce]

Anytime, Konowa. Anytime you have an inch of a decent reason to call me scum.

[Tierce]

I think you're scum individually, yes. But you replaced into aceofspades's slot and, as much as I wanted to lynch that slot at the time:

I will note - I fully support Ace as a policy lynch today.

He needs to learn that he shouldn't try to protect his weak scumgame by intentionally playing hyper-bad all the time to help hide when he's actually being bad.

When I asked about the meta they had on ace:

@Tierce - ONGOING

I gave a cursory look at some other partnerships, but I

do

get lazy at scumhunting as Town when I find something that looks like scum, I'm the first to admit it. (In your Mini Normal, I should have paid more attention in 3p LyLo, for example; same in Micro 51.) However, I am clearly not the only one seeing something off with this pair, and damned if Aeris is scum. I'm not the only one seeing it, so that gives me confidence that this isn't just me tunnel-visioning on a likely scumteam, and Konowa's reaction to it (he was calling me Town--he's denying it now, but he had just said he was "

still

thinking it was Leafsnail/havingfitz" (whatever that 'still' means--he hasn't explained it) and feeling off about the votes on me, which is a great excuse to avoid being part of a plurality lynch when he could be pushing any one of his suspects--what conclusions

did

he take from me not hammering Leafsnail, for example?--tells me that I am most definitely on to something.


The timing of my shift from Konowa to havingfitz was definitely deliberate. He's not voting; he'll probably vote me in self-defense, or just wait for the deadline. I intentionally did not want to create a seniority wagon on someone other than myself. If I am to live till Rarefaction (or Tomorrow, if we lynch scum Today) I want at least someone to accept that havingfitz is more likely to be scum than I am and hammer him. I am not willing to go into Rarefaction/Tomorrow with people calling me scum. Hate to break my no-mislynch streak, but those are my conditions. Either trust that I'm playing to my Town meta and have been from the start, or lynch me.

Good luck with that ridiculous burden of proficiency with this SWA. Bugger off and go pester someone with better lynch records, you know Town does and will mislynch plenty in games.


(Vi actually grounded my Mini Normal far closer to Empking than CES or I would have it. >.>)

[Tierce]

Hey look, I can ramble too.

[Tierce]

...So I miscounted, huh. Thought someone else was voting fitz already and that would make my vote on him a L-1 without seniority.

No matter, that makes it even more firm. Pretty likely to be Today's lynch since havingfitz won't vote himself and Aeris doesn't reach a plurality if she votes him anyway.

So as I said--lynch Konowa and havingfitz. Review the game first, obviously, but those two are working very well as a potential team.

[Tierce]

So I should probably reread D1 in regards to Trevor/Tierce and see if it makes sense.

How so? One of my problems with you is ou seem to keep throwing up pairs but not giving reasoning behind them.

If tierce and Trevor are partners, why did he forget his town read on her?

He did go on and said the pairing made sense a few posts later, but I've called him on it already and he keeps dodging the question. :hitoshrug: He keeps dancing on a scum trio without seeming rhyme nor reason for the vote shifts or, more importantly, the pairs themselves, and he never voted Trevor out of his 3-set.

[Tierce]

Aeris, if you want any sort of insight from me, you should ask now--I can't guarantee I'll be around in the morning, and being the probable lynch, etc.

[Tierce]

Leafsnail is Town. He's a paranoid derp, but I'm pretty sure he's Town, and iirc he hasn't shied away from poking at anything that catches his eye. He pushed both Parama and me, but didn't let that keep him from poking others. Just... try to rein him in and you should be fine. He's a prime mislynch target, but you can't let that happen Tomorrow.

Less convinced about Parama. My problem with him is that he generally doesn't seem to give a damn about games and then has a moment of tryharding here and there that doesn't tell of alignment, so he tends to throw me in for a loop. A while before this game, I discussed him with Empire, but it wasn't on this computer and I don't have access to the data on the other one, so that meta source probably goes poof with me.

[Tierce]

I feel like my next move is forced with Tierce and I the frontrunners. I'm not scum so any alternative to me at least has a chance of being scum. Plus I don't think the Tierce focus from F16 was totally unwarranted.

VOTE: Tierce

LOL



Yep, we got them, Aeris. He wouldn't have quickhammered as Town, there was no reason for it.

Just wow. Get him at Rarefaction.

Vi is around, so thread should be locked very soon.

[Tierce]

Of course he doesn't want to get scum lynched, duh.

[Tierce]

I feel like my next move is forced with Tierce and I the frontrunners. I'm not scum so any alternative to me at least has a chance of being scum. Plus I don't think the Tierce focus from F16 was totally unwarranted.

VOTE: Tierce

Seriously, wow at this crap.

You can't be anything but scum. Quickhammering when Aeris is ready to go to bed and I'm already the plurality lynch. There was absolutely no reason to do it as Town.

[Tierce]

Well, I'm happy that at least one of my reads was right.

[Tierce]

ffffffffffffff

[Tierce]

I didn't think they were wrong, though. You can't expect me to not express confidence when I am confident. You were going for behavior over motivation--there is no lack of Town motivation in pushing reads strongly if you believe they will not lead to mislynches. Being wrong is something that happens. Did I have motive to push my reads? Yes. That is what you missed.

I thought havingfitz's last posts (especially the one right after he was hammered) made a Leafsnail/havingfitz team pretty obvious, but the lack of an emotional connection to the game at that point made things considerably easier to analyze.

Aeris, don't take it too hard. Every Town member is involved in a loss like this. I just wish you hadn't literally prolonged it to the last minute--even when you are sure you will have access, emergencies can happen--or stuff like an internet blip or computer crash. Even a moment would have been enough to cause a deadline no-lynch, and that would have sucked far more than picking wrong in LyLo.

[Tierce]

Hey, Tierce, personal curious question for me ;what did my slot do "wrong" in this game?'

Oh, come on. Go read my posts in reply to Majiffy, I stand by all of them and they are not all that hard to locate.

[Tierce]

I think that kind of hydra dissonance is scummy because it shows that Majiffy apparently isn't interested in scumhunting

and

is not interested in Thor's scumhunting. If they were both scumhunting in different directions, it would be one thing, but Majiffy was doing nothing while ignoring his hydra partner.

Followed by more instances of Majiffy doing nothing while posting. Being an ass on purpose and refusing to participate

even when asking specific stuff

, which he was, was pretty damn awful.

It wasn't so much your absence from the thread, but your apparent absence from the game altogether when you were apparently available to discuss things with your hydra partner.

[Tierce]

(And you got to keep your bonnet.)