Micro 102: Mainstream Mini-Mafia [END, CULT WIN]

[FourTrouble]

VOTE: pappums rat

shorter deadlines hurt town.

[FourTrouble]

Oh, really? I can't wait to hear this, how is less time for deliberation better for town?

[FourTrouble]

Town has no obligation to wait until deadline to lynch. The issue here is whether having extra time is beneficial or hurtful to town. I can see situations where it might be beneficial. I cannot see them where it is hurtful.

[FourTrouble]

orcinus, why is Majiffy scum?

[FourTrouble]

Unvote, Vote Majiffy

[FourTrouble]

I'm just saying, if there's no contradiction in finding people scummy for trying to lynch scummy players, you must not want to lynch scummy players.

You are acquainted with bussing, right? You did say it is something YOU do when you are scum, correct?

[FourTrouble]

@Majiffy

Orci thinks you are bussing your teammate, what's the contradiction?

You are pretty obsessed with Orci's votes, why the lack of interest in mine? Why don't you make some things happen? You know, like asking questions, taking stances, etc. instead of complaining about inactivity? Do you think I - or anyone else in this game - should have a town-read on you? If yes, why? If no, why not?

[FourTrouble]

Orci thinks you are bussing your teammate, what's the contradiction?

I don't believe he's actually said that. Please go re-read.

It doesn't matter whether Orci has said that. I'll ask again, what's the contradiction?

[FourTrouble]

The contradiction is that he's finding lynching a scummy player to be scummy. Now either he does not inherently think we should lynch scummy players, or he is contradicting himself.

Or he thinks you are bussing your teammate, which you had said you do as scum. What I want to know is WHY you are excluding this third (quite obvious and logical) possibility?

If you are town as fuck, why do you think people voting for you? How is it pro-town to ignore these votes? How come you still don't have any reads after posting more than double anyone else?

[FourTrouble]

VOTE: four trouble

Why?

[FourTrouble]

@Pappums

Where am I shitting up the thread with talk of bussing? I was solely talking about Majiffy's fallacious logic. This post...

The contradiction is that he's finding lynching a scummy player to be scummy. Now either he does not inherently think we should lynch scummy players, or he is contradicting himself.

... employs a false dichotomy to discredit Orci. Majiffy completely ignores the third (and more logical) possibility of bussing.

I voted Majiffy for a couple reasons. First, he's cluttering up the game with fluff. Second, he's using semantics to discredit other players. Third, he's refusing to commit to any positions. Majiffy's recent posting confirms my suspicions, particularly his responses to me.

[FourTrouble]

There are no flips to analyze, meaning no concrete associative tells could be made.

This does not mean players should not be looking for associative tells. There is something called CONDITIONAL reasoning. I myself will not lynch a player unless I can pin down who I think his partners are. It actually works quite effectively, especially for developing town-reads and using process of elimination. Your vote on Jacob is honestly pretty bad.

I'm calling it now, Pappums-Majiffy.

[FourTrouble]

Doesn't actually hold as a possibility given what he's said.

Explain, please. Also:

1) I think most of it is fluff. You certainly didn't need 50 posts to say as much as you have.
2) You're right, you used semantics to disable arguments. I still think that's scummy since it intentionally misinterprets the argument and attacks it indirectly. It is similar to misrepresenting someone, though not as visible.
3) You have not committed to any reads yet. You don't find anyone scummy or towny.

[FourTrouble]

Now unless I was actually voting him (I wasn't) and trying to get him lynched, I don't see how you can associate any kind of bussing from my interaction with Siv. Thus what Orc said here doesn't hold as "I'm scummy for trying to bus Siv"

You expressed intent to lynch Siv in this post...

Well lets go ahead and flip Siv then and see.

... so yes it does hold.

Also noted that you completely dodged the fact that I was calling you out for saying I was discrediting players.

I did not dodge anything, clearly stated that you were correct. It does not change the fact that I find the effect (and intention) of your semantic games scummy.

No one has asked. How can I refuse something if I've not been asked yet?

You were asked multiple times. I asked you and Orci asked you.

[FourTrouble]

@Majiffy

Orci asked you - "So do you actually have any reads at this point?" - and you replied: "Not particularly, no."

Jacob Savage asked - "Who other than Siv do you think is scum?" - and you responded with the defensive: "I never said I thought Siv was scum."

I asked - "How come you still don't have any reads after posting more than double anyone else?" - and your response - "How do I get reads if players aren't posting?" - implied yet again that you have no reads.

Are you saying that NOW you have reads? What has changed?

[FourTrouble]

No one has asked. How can I refuse something if I've not been asked yet?

The examples I provided were in direct response to this post. You said no one asked. I am proving that you were asked. You did not answer Jacob's question or my question. When you answered Orci's question, you did not commit to any reads.

[FourTrouble]

@Majiffy

You are dancing around the issue. You said no one asked you. I showed that you were asked. Your responses gave no answers so they were refusals. I'm not getting into a semantic argument with you. You were WRONG about the fact that no one asked you. You are not dodging that bullet. If you have any reads, now is the time to articulate them.

[FourTrouble]

1. Looking for associative tells is all fine and good, storing what you see for later cases ONCE FLIPS HAVE OCCURRED. Building cases on people solely because of interactions with others BEFORE A FLIP is bad.
2. That is a horrible strategy. Can you link to games where you have done this and lynched scum?
3. Would you like to explain why? What about my reasoning for voting him was in error?
4. LOL. See #1.

1. I never said I build cases SOLELY because of interactions. I said I don't lynch someone UNLESS there are also associations. It is a necessary condition for lynching someone, not a sufficient one. That said, I would like to know why you are changing your story:

Looking for scumbuddies 5 pages into Day 1 is terribad.

So is it fine to look for scumbuddies or is it scummy?
2. Since you misrepresented my strategy in (1), I will assume your request here is moot.
3. I don't like your vote on Jacob because it faults him for wanting to understand Majiffy's meta better (the question regarding Thor) and seeking knowledge regarding Majiffy and Ocri's reads. There ain't nothing scummy about any of that, but there is for voting someone on that basis.

[FourTrouble]

Why exactly are you guys voting for me?

[FourTrouble]

Orci never had to say Majiffy was bussing Siv because Orci's position IMPLIES it. Orci thinks both Majiffy and Siv are scummy even though Majiffy had his vote on Siv. The implication of the context in which those reads occurred is that Orci thinks Majiffy is bussing Siv. Majiffy said Orci's position was contradictory, and I disagree.

If anyone thinks Orci's position was indeed contradictory, please explain. If anyone thinks the implication of Orci's position is NOT that Orci thinks Majiffy is bussing Siv, also please explain.

I dunno why anyone thinks Majiffy isn't scummy, would be nice to hear some explanation in case I'm missing something here? Whatever the case, I'll put my vote somewhere more useful till I hear those explanations.

Unvote Vote Melmond

Melmond is totally taking the talk of bussing out of context. Honestly, I don't even understand why he thinks talk of bussing is scummy in the first place. Or why he finds my first posts contrived? Or where I have ever beat around the bush? (If anything, Majiffy is the one who has made it extremely difficult to get straight answers from).

[FourTrouble]

Voided, why is your vote still on Orci?

[FourTrouble]

Don't have time atm to say much, will post more later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[FourTrouble]

Human Destroyer, why'd you put Orc in your town pile?

[FourTrouble]

Vote Mollie

[FourTrouble]

I'm getting some good town-reads so far, having trouble getting strong scum-reads though. majiffy still looking suspicious to me, and mollie as well now.

[FourTrouble]

neither majiffy nor mollie contributing anything to this game - lots of stalling/deflecting from both - and them as a scum-team makes sense. I find it hilariou

Human Destroyer is really towny, my opinion. Voided/Orci are also town-reads, though not as strong. Rach was a town-read, though that recent vote on me ain't making much sense.

Question for Rach: what has majiffy or mollie contributed in the way of actual content during the period in which I was not posting anything? If you want "more," why isn't your vote on them?

[FourTrouble]

Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear at the time, but I was trying to say that the entire sequence of Orci's anger at Majiffy's response and him blowing the argument out of porportion (and drawing it out over a page or so) was scummy because I don't see why town would get that bent out of shape over an aggravating but overall alignment null answer that Majiffy gave. And of course, I gave three possibilities for why Orci did that and I still really stand by the 3rd one (that Orci is scum who thought he had a good way to garner suspicion on Majiffy that didn't go as planned at all).

This is my read of what happened with Orci and majiffy: Orci asks Majiffy some questions, and Majiffy never really answers them - instead he deflects all the questions asked at him with his silly semantic games - so Orci obviously gets frustrated not knowing how to get answers out of Majiffy. It's an obvious town-tell if anything from Orci - the frustration definitely seemed genuine.

[FourTrouble]

Yeah fourtroble looks scum as anything,

I'm getting some good town-reads so far, having trouble getting strong scum-reads though

. majiffy still looking suspicious to me, and mollie as well now.

I don't know about you but that to me reads as scum, afraid scum prefer not to tread on anyones toes til they have to. Town however should have nothing to fear.

VOTE: FT

So no one here is giving me extremely scummy vibes. That's when I look for town-reads, since that's just as legitimate a strategy for scum-hunting as looking for scum-tells. What does that have to do with my affiliation? You ALWAYS have scum-reads when you are town?

[FourTrouble]

@Jacob

btw, I was putting a legitimate FOS on majiffy early in the game way before a lot of players voiced any reads at all... so how does that action demonstrate "fear" or not wanting to tread on anyone's toes? You're not making much sense, help me out here.

[FourTrouble]

mollie, why you think I'm scummy?

[FourTrouble]

I'm gonna sheep Thor for now. Only person making sense.

Vote Mollie

[FourTrouble]

Thor, who should I be voting right now?

[FourTrouble]

meta arguments are fuckin terrible either way, people change the way they play game to game. THe degree of clutter in this game is annoying as hell. I'm still sticking with majiffy/mollie as scum unless Thor has a good argument on someone else - not Human Destroyer yet, he has some really towny posts, not gonna vote him as things are atm.

[FourTrouble]

Majiffy is scum.

Vote majiffy

[FourTrouble]

On my phone, don't have time to make case against majiffy but I promise I will tonight or tomorrow morning. Majiffy needs to today's lynch.

[FourTrouble]

I'm town cop, majiffy is scum. You guys should just lynch him already.

[FourTrouble]

Voided is town, so that leaves cult between Rach, HD, mollie, Thor, or Jacob. If there are 3 cult we have a pretty good shot lynching scum, but we gotta find the cult leader. Ill read through previous days and see what I come up with. My suspicion of Mollie was largely based on my suspicion of majiffy so I need to rethink that for now.

[FourTrouble]

town/scum is how I got my results, why would that even matter?

[FourTrouble]

Voided, who you think is best lynch for today?

[FourTrouble]

Why you think Mollie would have recruited you by now?

[FourTrouble]

I don't see why Cult wouldn't have recruited Thor by now... so I dunno. Cult is probably Jacob, Thor, and Rach. That would make sense to me. Jacob as cult leader, probably. That's what I'm thinking at the moment.

[FourTrouble]

I have already explained why I think Mollie would have recruited me by now. You can find it in one of the pages you skimmed.

I don't see it, can you either direct me to that post or explain again. Thanks.

[FourTrouble]

Whoever the leader is, I expect Thor to be cult by this point. He's at the forefront of town discussion yet nowhere close to being lynched, and that's why I expect cult to have recruited him. I'm trying to read over his posts to see if I can figure out cult leader from his interactions with people. I dunno who cult leader is, but I doubt it's Rach based on Thor's push to lynch Rach. I could see Rach as his recruit though. Supposing Jacob recruits Thor N1 and Rach N2.

I could see Mollie or HD as cult leader too. But I dunno, I've never really scum-hunted for a cult team before or cult leader, so I'm basically at a loss at how to proceed doing that.

[FourTrouble]

Voided, what do you think of a Jacob/Thor/Rach cult or Mollie/Thor/Rach cult?

[FourTrouble]

Well, tonight is the first time I have had access to a computer all week. I was trying to keep up with the game on my phone, so yes I was skimming through things here and there but haven't had a chance to really sit down and analyze any posts in-depth until tonight.

[FourTrouble]

Thor - now I read through things more carefully, basically all I see is that you think Mollie would have recruited you because Mollie likes you.. except that isn't really a valid point at all, practically-speaking it's WIFOM. You aren't gonna get anywhere with that kind of reasoning, at least I'm not buying it as a town mindset. I expect more in-depth thinking from town, especially regarding the motivations cult leader has for their recruitment choices. What I want to see from you, if you're gonna keep pushing this argument, is something specific that has happened in this game that makes you say Mollie would have recruited you if Mollie was cult.

I already gave you the answer to that, of course. The only problem is, the answer applies to ANYONE here who could be cult leader. It comes down to the fact that you have been in a leadership position since you replaced in, besides which, you seem impossible to lynch (even now where I'm convinced you're scum, still feels like anyone but you is getting lynched today, dunno exactly why it feels that way though). Point is, Mollie would have recruited you if she was cult, not cause she likes you, but because of your central position in the direction this game has taken and seems to be taking. And pretty much everyone else would have recruited you for the same reason.

So I put Thor in the cult. The level of his thinking has definitely dropped from when he replaced in (it's not nearly as well thought out as it was earlier). The motivations he's ascribing to the decisions cult makes when recruiting are so reductive and simplistic I find it hard to believe anyone could possibly be convinced he's town at this point.

The only problem now is piecing together who Thor's partners are. I think we need to analyze his interactions with Mollie/Jacob/Rach/HD and that's where we're gonna figure out who the Cult Leader is. Unless Thor is the leader, but I'm not sure if I'm prepared to make that jump yet given my strong town-read on him earlier in the game.

[FourTrouble]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... do you think that kind of superficial analysis is more likely to come from town or scum?

[FourTrouble]

Voided, are there any players here who you absolutely think would have recruited you if they were cult leader? Or also to flip the question, any players here who you think most certainly would not have recruited you?

[FourTrouble]

How is the game imbalanced? The fact we have no idea what is going on and are probably gonna lose this game is more than enough evidence to see the game is anything but imbalanced. Cults in such a small game, with a SK to boot, make for an extremely swingy game. The investigative roles here make perfect sense, as such.

[FourTrouble]

If the game is unbalanced, it means one side has much better chances of winning than another side. At the moment, I don't see town having a disproportionately greater chance of winning than the Cult, so the game is balanced.

I'm town. Jacob is obviously cult, though I'm not sure if he's the recruiter or not. I'm thinking the cult recruiter is probably someone who seems very difficult to get a wagon going on, especially since his recruits are gonna do everything they can to keep him from getting lynched. I'd say recruiter is between Mollie/HD/Thor. I think one of them should be our lynch.

[FourTrouble]

Why is receiving results in a Town/Scum format suspicious? You guys seemed to believe I was legit Yesterday, why didn't anyone question my results back then?

[FourTrouble]

I thought I already clarified this, I received results in a Town/Scum format.

[FourTrouble]

HD, who do you think we should lynch?

[FourTrouble]

I'm fucking town cop, you guys are fucking retarded... basically you're voting me cause I claimed my actual role?

[FourTrouble]

Rach is obviously cult btw...

[FourTrouble]

I'm not cult, but whatever. We ain't gonna win this game with the state of thought in this Town.

[FourTrouble]

Whatever, you guys are obviously really dumb... There is literally no reason to lynch me unless you think I'm Cult Recruiter, and I'm obviously not even if you think I was recruited to the Cult. Voided, you are making a terrible mistake.

[FourTrouble]

lol I'm a cop, what doesn't make sense?

[FourTrouble]

What about my results does not make sense? I was told Majiffy was scum and Voided was town. Why doesn't it make sense that there is a cop and tracker?

[FourTrouble]

I don't understand why getting town/scum results is problematic... you guys just keep repeating that for some unknown reason..