I checked the Road to Rome again, and saw that--as far as I can tell--the 2of4 setup is
still
the only one being run, which means that changes have
still
not been made.
We've been talking about this for months. Surely there has to have been some progress, so I was wondering if I could get a status update on what's being done.
singer needs to reply/decide. She's been very busy, but I'll poke her again.
More IC's is better than less IC's. Just because a player is an IC doesn't mean they are a good IC, and if they are lynched D1 or nightkilled N1 (which happens frequently enough) then the Town is left to their own durdling devices.
Furthermore, it always seems like there is a backlog in the Newbie Queue nowadays. I don't even bother considering playing as an IC because the list of IC's waiting to play a game is absurdly long.
All that doing nothing about the backlog does is make everybody wait longer to play games, and the games they are waiting for are going to be of lesser quality. This in turn will probably result in newbies flaking from the site before they even get to their game, or soon into their game.
I agree with Ether and petroleumjelly. Even leaving aside the arguments over whether two ICs per game provide a better newbie game experience, I remember that the number of ICs per game was reduced from two to one
solely
because there weren't enough of them volunteering to accommodate all the newbies. And lots of people were disappointed by the change. It would be one thing if two ICs meant the queue grinded to a halt because the ratio of newbies to ICs was too high. But as long as actual newbies aren't getting shoved out of the game or forced to wait an unreasonably long time, what's the harm in adding a second IC?
Yeah I have always been confused at the thinking that SE's are closer to IC's than newbies on the New Player to Established Player Scale. 2 IC's made sense in the past and would like to see it go back to that, maybe with a more flexible newbie definition. Only really using SE's if the IC list goes down.
Mostly retired. Unless you ask or it's something interesting.
In post 496, zoraster wrote:Well, not really. I'm saying that the numbers we have are sufficient, and increasing them just to get through that backlog is a mistake. I'd much rather have a long SE/IC backlog that not have one at all.
I think back when Vel ran the queue, he actually did unload extra SEs and ICs into games when they had a decent backlog. So there actually is precedent for that.
Also at a quick glance I can easily foresee an IC shortage if we were to permanently go back to a 2 IC system just on looking at the backlog of the newbie que as it stands now.
We do, however, get periodic IC shortages. (In fact, it'd seem likely to happen instantly upon Nacho going V/LA, which might happen at any time at random.)
I can /in to IC if we make the switch, but I was hit or miss when I stopped playing (and also throughout my whole career), and I'm kind of scared to get as invested in mafia as I once did.
Still, as someone with more than enough games down discussing how we could use more ICs, I figure I had to offer.
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
In post 508, Ether wrote:I can /in to IC if we make the switch, but I was hit or miss when I stopped playing (and also throughout my whole career), and I'm kind of scared to get as invested in mafia as I once did.
Still, as someone with more than enough games down discussing how we could use more ICs, I figure I had to offer.
I don't disagree with your argument, I just don't think that the queue will sustain 2 ICs per newbie game on a permanent basis.
I know. I think that's fair, but that we should still take advantage of the backlog while it's there.
Really I'm just trying to peer pressure other people to IC. I'm prepared to join in myself, but I think that my ICing alone has a chance of backfiring horribly.
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
In post 505, Zachrulez wrote:Also at a quick glance I can easily foresee an IC shortage if we were to permanently go back to a 2 IC system just on looking at the backlog of the newbie que as it stands now.
If we got a new setup in the rotation, I'd volunteer to IC in a heartbeat.
(I do not enjoy the 2of4 setup. At all. It's not fun for me to play in as either town or scum. As a teacher, I have a harder time teaching the players than I did in F11, too, but that's not nearly as important as the fun factor. My dissatisfaction for it is the only reason I have stopped playing in Newbies. I'd be fine with playing it if it was the setup I was assigned to play in and there were other options which I just so happened to miss, but going into the queue and knowing it's always going to land me into a 2of4 gives me incentive NOT to sign up.)
Omggggg, ok, quadz and I are looking at everything on Friday since and going to start figuring out all the changes that need to be made. I know a lot were suggested last summer-ish, but I suck at life. I'll be reading through this thread and if I have any other proposed options, I'll post them for discussion, but otherwise we'll go ahead and implement those changes throughout the weekend.
Thank you so much to everyone who's contributed their thoughts/opinions and helped work toward making the newbie queue the best first impression the site can give.
In post 377, Rob14 wrote:What would people think about raising the requirement to be an SE to three games completed to force newbies out into the site for at least one game after their two games as a newbie?
I would like to quote this to make sure it isn't missed. I think this would be a great addition to the Newbie Queue and prevent people from essentially becoming "professional newbies" by playing two newbie games and then just being an SE for a long time. It would also raise the quality of play in Newbie Games. Almost everyone who commented on this idea when it discussed liked the idea, IIRC.
In post 377, Rob14 wrote:What would people think about raising the requirement to be an SE to three games completed to force newbies out into the site for at least one game after their two games as a newbie?
I would like to quote this to make sure it isn't missed. I think this would be a great addition to the Newbie Queue and prevent people from essentially becoming "professional newbies" by playing two newbie games and then just being an SE for a long time. It would also raise the quality of play in Newbie Games. Almost everyone who commented on this idea when it discussed liked the idea, IIRC.
I'm not sure how your idea does anything to solve the problem you're perceiving; it just makes them a "newbie" (who can play another newbie game) for one game longer.
Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
@Vi: The idea isn't expressed very clearly in the post, but it's that you cannot play in a newbie slot with 2 or more games of experience, and cannot play in an SE slot with 2 or fewer games of experience. So your third game has to be outside the newbie queue.
^Trivial. If people are nervous or shy or w/e and want to play 10 newbie games before anything else, I don't care. Let them. I don't know why SE's are even a thing. IC's are people who aren't noobs but play to help noobs out. SE's are people that are kind of noobs and play because..? Just let people continue to sign up for newbie games until they don't feel like noobs anymore and forget this whole SE thing.
I never fully understood the dislike of 2/4 but that's not important. Did this thread ever shake out a new format for the newbie queue we're going to use? I said somewhere a while back that we should just do 2 goons vs. 1 PR pulled out of a hat + 6 VTs. Super simple, variable, allows fake-claiming for scum without forcing it, unbreakable. Is there something wrong with this besides "1 PR too boring"?
Vi, it forces newbies to leave that queue before becoming an SE. It's like adding a requirement to SE that states you must have one completed game outside the Newbie Queue. This would help integrate newbies into the site better, show them what's out there, and make more of a cohesive community in my opinion. It also raises the quality of play in the newbie games by forcing the "model" players (SEs) to at least have some decent experience.
Is having a handful of "Newbie Career" players a problem? If people enjoy playing newbie games, that's not exactly something I see as a problem. Even upping the SE requirement isn't going to keep them from becoming Newbie Career players.
Singer and I discussed this this morning and yesterday. I am going to be looking through the approved open setups, including past newbie setups and CES' 2of3, to find 9-player setups that will work for a newbie game. We will likely be using only some of the possibilities from semi-open setups (for example, all of the F11 setups except for the mountainous one). The possible setups will just be in a list; that is, rather than saying "these three setups from F11, these four from 2of4, and Bird 9p," it will say something like this:
The idea is that there will be a pretty decent number of possible setups. There will be no way to narrow down precisely which setup you're in by any single flip, or for a scumteam to know precisely which setup they're in based on their roles. All setups will be for 9 players.
We'll be working on the other stuff mentioned in this thread once this is resolved.
Progress!
P.S., just so everyone is aware: I'm having this conversation with you all because singer is at work.
Last edited by quadz08 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
So after looking through all of the 9p Open setups (which there are surprisingly few of on the wiki, actually), the great majority (possibly all) of the setups will be coming from F11, 2of4, and 2of3.
The following list has 12 setups in it, all from F11, 2of4, and 2of3. The setups that are known to be strongly unbalanced (mountainous F11, Doc/Cop 2of4, Doc/VT 2of4) have been removed.
It would be nice to include Bird 9p (Macho Cop + Doc + 5 VT vs 2 Goons) and JK9 (JK + Tracker + 5 VT vs 2 Goons), but the Macho Cop and the Tracker would give away the setup immediately to one player, as well as giving it up upon flip. Is it worth throwing in a couple more setups that include a Macho Cop and/or a Tracker?
EDIT: changed to make F11 setups correct. This means only one RB setup; ideas to deal with this? (Drop it? Add a roleblocker somewhere else?)
Last edited by quadz08 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think there's really a good reason to include Macho Cop setups, since the fact that the setup is already semi-open where it isn't always Cop/Doctor means Follow the Cop won't really happen, which is really the point of the Macho Cop in the first place.
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
