Mini 1414: Mafia and Werewolves - Game Over

[JasonWazza]

A town player should always claim properly unless your gambiting using it for a specific reason (read: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25034 Where i had such a gambit backfire pathetically in my face) you did no such gambit, there was no reason to leave that claim off, there was no reason not to address it in one of your 3 other posts inbetween me pointing it out and you actually saying you are.

You are not playing in a pro-town manner, and of course a town player would be concerned with there own appearance IN LYLO

[JacobSavage]

The issue here is that I can totally see what he is saying.
Under any normal regime to have one anti-wearwolf role.
(It is my impression that Seers are like Cops to Werewolves, and so the guility/innocent thing isnt that much of a bigger deal)

Secondly I can see why I would be in lylo, I can see why YOLO would be in lylo but someone who had so many town reads on him as Jason... seems to much of a risk.

BRB, meta-ing.

YOLO, did you breadcrumb?

@Mod: Does a seer's receive a guilty result on a Mafia Member?

~ Players can ask questions about their own roles but I can't publicly answer questions about other player's roles.

[JacobSavage]

I never finished that first point. To have an anti-werewolf role and not an anti-cop one would be difficult to get through any review process.

[JasonWazza]

Secondly I can see why I would be in lylo, I can see why YOLO would be in lylo but someone who had so many town reads on him as Jason... seems to much of a risk.

a) that's called WIFOM
b) The hammer looked suspicious enough to make me live over Revenus, mind you that was the entire idea but meh

[JasonWazza]

Well this game has stalled...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hiraki

That's L-1 folks.

This post is very alarming to me. The game has been going for only a week, but in that time we've come close to lynching two different players (Revenus and Hiraki), we've seen a quickwagon on Navarre, and the game itself is quite active. How exactly has this game stalled? This has to be one of the worst vote argumentation I've ever seen. And on top of that, it's a L-1 vote!

On the subject of the recent Revenus and Hiraki wagons:
It's common knowledge that in mafia games the active players garner the most suspicion while the lurkers go by relatively easily, especially Day 1. This is because the more post, the more likely it is that you post something that other people will interpret as scummy. Now I won't say that Revenus and Hiraki aren't scum, but I will point out that our two most active players are conveniently our two major bandwagons of Day 1. As for my personal opinion, I haven't seem much from Hiraki that I would interpret as scummy. Especially when I look at how much he posted, I feel he's done an ok job so far. I'd rather look at the people with few content, especially those that go into 'prod dodge' mode with a lynch nearby, like Josh Lyman is doing now (gets prodded, says he's reading 'now', then doesn't post anyway).

So Revenus is data-dumping ISOs in an attempt to look like he is scum hunting in order to weasel out of his horrific opening play.

And Hikari isn't doing much to sway my read on him either.

I'm mainly talking about thoughts like this. You don't like what you see, but you're ignorant of what you don't see.

At this point my main suspicions lie with Josh Lyman and JacobSavage.
Josh Lyman has posted nothing worth of value today. He has only been here to vote Revenus and Hiraki (the leading wagons) with argumentation such as 'I'm voting you because you're scum' and 'I don't like this'. Then when we're getting close to a lynch, he disappears and only posts a prod acknowledgement.
I have stated earlier that I didn't like the fact that JacobSavage relied solely on meta to scumhunt. Since then, he has done next to nothing except join easy wagons (Navarre and Hiraki). Then, there's that terrible terrible 'this game has stalled' vote.

I feel comfortable voting either player. I'm going to vote Jacob because I feel Jacob's behaviour is more serious. If I look at it from a different angle, Jacob could just be a very impatient player by nature that legitly feels this game has stalled. However, going through the meta of other players is something that requires lots of patience. No matter how I look at it, his L-1 vote is terrible.

Vote: JacobSavage

This shows a lot of saving Hiraki

Null
Hiraki

Is protecting Hiraki without really putting a town read there

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

Also really attached to keeping YOLO alive.

[JasonWazza]

Also just something from my wiki to prove my point about being left alive JS

As Town

Times Night killed as town: 2

Times Lynched as town: 6

Times Venge Killed as Town: 1

Times lasting till end game as town: 4

I don't very often get killed for some weird reason.

[JacobSavage]

Thats actually quite interesting...
What do you think about the point about the cop to balance the seer?

On a side note: I have yet to win a game where I haven't been alive on the last day...
Obviously its my natural gift >_>

[JasonWazza]

I don't think that is required to balance the game cause we quite simply DON'T know the power of the last werewolf

[JasonWazza]

Seer could be simply counteractting something as simple as a strongman, we have no proof that the last werewolf is a goon

[JacobSavage]

What would be the point in having a strong man?
All the cops are macho so its not for that, and I don't think a Vanilla is really worth giving them a strongman.

[JasonWazza]

that was just an example using one PR i know of lols.

[JasonWazza]

Now that i think about it rolecop would be a more logical example but meh Strongman has come up recently for me

[YOLO]

YOLO, did you breadcrumb?

I made an attempt to breadcrumb after Night 1. In my first post of Day 2, I quote Director, address him with one sentence, and the capital letters from I and Navarre form IN, short for innocent. The problem here was that we already knew the game had a seer and the OP hinted at a cop, so the mafia would surely be on the lookout for breadcrumbs. So I had to make sure the breadcrumb would not be easy to find. This would of course mean the breadcrumb would be hard to find for town too (I admit it doesn't look very convincing), but it would be better than not crumbing at all. I didn't crumb on subsequent days because my investigations died and both mafia were killed/lynched.

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

Also really attached to keeping YOLO alive.

That's nice, but you don't mention what happens afterwards:

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

He makes three posts and is the towniest person in the game? Please tell me this is sarcasm.

Oh--must've been thinking about the wrong guy in hindsight.

Hiraki was actually not talking about me at all. Taking quotes out of their context and presenting them as stand-alone statements is a very scummy thing to do, you know?

Also just something from my wiki to prove my point about being left alive JS

As Town

Times Night killed as town: 2

Times Lynched as town: 6

Times Venge Killed as Town: 1

Times lasting till end game as town: 4

I don't very often get killed for some weird reason.

The issue here is that the most towny player in the game is alive in lylo, not that 'Player JasonWazza' is alive in lylo. I find it hard to believe that in all your other games you had the same 'very towny' reputation as you do here, especially since you get mislynched a lot. Also, I take note of the fact that you only posted your town statistics. You have mafia statistics as well, don't you?


As for speculation about the role of the werewolf:
A sane alignment-investigative role is a very powerful role. It's not something you can counteract by giving a buff to a goon. It's telling that you can't think of a role that could possibly counter the strength of a seer. As Jacob already explained, a Strongman does nothing, and a Role Cop doesn't help either. A role cop would give the werewolves weapons to hunt town power roles, but the whole point is that the chances of the mafia/werewolves are unbalanced. A role cop doesn't counter the mafia like a seer counters the werewolf. In fact, a role cop doesn't counter the mafia at all since both of the mafia are vanilla.

[JasonWazza]

YOLO, did you breadcrumb?

I made an attempt to breadcrumb after Night 1. In my first post of Day 2, I quote Director, address him with one sentence, and the capital letters from I and Navarre form IN, short for innocent. The problem here was that we already knew the game had a seer and the OP hinted at a cop, so the mafia would surely be on the lookout for breadcrumbs. So I had to make sure the breadcrumb would not be easy to find. This would of course mean the breadcrumb would be hard to find for town too (I admit it doesn't look very convincing), but it would be better than not crumbing at all. I didn't crumb on subsequent days because my investigations died and both mafia were killed/lynched.

when you know it's pathetic, why did you do it and why did you not do something less pathetic?

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

Also really attached to keeping YOLO alive.

That's nice, but you don't mention what happens afterwards:

YOLO is by far the towniest person in the game, thanks.

He makes three posts and is the towniest person in the game? Please tell me this is sarcasm.

Oh--must've been thinking about the wrong guy in hindsight.

Hiraki was actually not talking about me at all. Taking quotes out of their context and presenting them as stand-alone statements is a very scummy thing to do, you know?

Hmmm i thought that was after something else my bad, this was ISOing

Also just something from my wiki to prove my point about being left alive JS

As Town

Times Night killed as town: 2

Times Lynched as town: 6

Times Venge Killed as Town: 1

Times lasting till end game as town: 4

I don't very often get killed for some weird reason.

The issue here is that the most towny player in the game is alive in lylo, not that 'Player JasonWazza' is alive in lylo. I find it hard to believe that in all your other games you had the same 'very towny' reputation as you do here, especially since you get mislynched a lot. Also, I take note of the fact that you only posted your town statistics. You have mafia statistics as well, don't you?

Mafia Statistics AREN'T RELEVANT due to never being able to be killed by something (hence not relevant to the convo) But it was still relevant (the town part)

As for speculation about the role of the werewolf:
A sane alignment-investigative role is a very powerful role. It's not something you can counteract by giving a buff to a goon. It's telling that you can't think of a role that could possibly counter the strength of a seer. As Jacob already explained, a Strongman does nothing, and a Role Cop doesn't help either. A role cop would give the werewolves weapons to hunt town power roles, but the whole point is that the chances of the mafia/werewolves are unbalanced. A role cop doesn't counter the mafia like a seer counters the werewolf. In fact, a role cop doesn't counter the mafia at all since both of the mafia are vanilla.

Rolecop can kick the seers butt imo.

Searching for 1/11 instead of 2/12 and possibly finding other roles is better then the seer imo.

But if we are going to go there, roleblocker could beat it back, there are just so many reason why the mafia wouldn't mirror the werewolves in a game balance wise.

[JacobSavage]

I don't know, My gut says YOLO, he's been lurking all game and only occasionally coming in with big walls. This is a tactic that I've seen scum do, but on the other hand much of his posts are town orientated.

On the other hand Jason also seems town. I mean he's been the most town all game. But the claim from YOLO by its simplicity makes more sense. Anyway I'm going to look at some past Mini Normals.



(On a side note: Story Dead thread if I get this wrong )

[JasonWazza]

Is it harder to seem town in 96 posts or in 32 posts?

Just saying

[JasonWazza]

Also relying on outguessing the mod for a win isn't gonna help, mods can screw people over and do so quite often setup wise

[YOLO]

I don't know, My gut says YOLO, he's been lurking all game and only occasionally coming in with big walls. This is a tactic that I've seen scum do, but on the other hand much of his posts are town orientated.

I've only had a lower post frequency during Day 1 and Day 2. During Day 3, Day 4 and today I've been posting perfectly fine.
You've seen scum having a low post frequency with big posts. Have you also seen town with low post frequency and big posts? If you did, it tells you nothing about alignment. Also, I've been making big posts the whole game, so I don't see why you're even making this 'lurking+big posts' combination.

I don't see how this is still difficult for you. JasonWazza is trapped and he has no way out. He's now just spouting the one senseless possibilty after the other. His latest suggestion is that the mod could effectively be some kind of bastard mod that doesn't care about balance and could screw us over... in a mini normal.

If you're taking 'gut' and 'feeling' into account when you're making your decision, this must mean the mafia/werewolf/seer/cop situation doesn't seem solid to you. I'd like to ask you then, why not? My argument is based entirely on logic.

If you think this setup needs a cop, then JasonWazza is scum by default

. It's only if you doubt about the need for a cop, that you should have trouble making a decision today.

So if you have doubts about my mafia/werewolf/seer/cop argument, I'd like you to tell me what those doubts are.

[JacobSavage]

I can see why a cop would makes sense but I can see the counter argument.

Currently I'm just rambling and talking aloud, humour me.

[JacobSavage]

Also the I know this game is balanced if it's not then it wouldn't have made reviews.

There's a distinct difference between giving town an information role and giving scum a blocking role. The block can affect the whole game, the See specifically affects Werewolves.

Fuck this;

VOTE: JasonWazza

[YOLO]

Town wins.

I'll wait until the mod confirms before I comment on the game.

[rapidcanyon]

VOTE COUNT 5.2

JasonWazza - 2/2 (YOLO, JacobSavage)

YOLO

- 1/2 (JasonWazza)

JacobSavage

Not Voting (0)

:

JasonWazza, Werewolf goon

has been lynched Day 5.

Town Wins!

Town

1) Town Macho Cop - YOLO
2) Town Macho Seer - AJ the Epic
3) Town Doctor - evilpacman18
4) Vengeful Townie - Maenara
5) Vanilla Townie - Navarre
6) Vanilla Townie - JacobSavage
7) Vanilla Townie - the director
8) Vanilla Townie - Joshy Lyman
9) Vanilla Townie - Revenus

[Hiraki]

jasonnnnnnnnn

why didn't you claim cop

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

you had itttttt

[Aj The Epic]

Yes! The dead quicktopic had ALL the answers (or maybe I did)

[the director]

Well done town. No hard feelings YOLO.