Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Cheery Dog]

I'll go with the solution of alphabetical order, so if we're doing that, JK resolves first. (but onl if they're targetting each other, a roleblocked jk not targeting the roleblocker should still get blocked.

[Zachrulez]

Not sure upping the SE volume in newbie games to 3 in combination with upping the requirements it going to be a great thing. Why not temporarily put more in and then go back to 2 when the queue empties out? Changing the layout to a 5:3:1 seems like it's going to invite an SE shortage in the near future.

Upping the SE requirements alone seems fine to me. (At the very least it's probably worth seeing what the effect of upping the SE requirement to 3 games does to the backlog.)

[singersigner]

Hmm...that's a good point about the requirement v. count. I just thought upping the count PLUS extra experience for all of them was a good compromise to not adding another IC if having experienced players was still an issue, especially if we're going to try to be more strict with IC requirements.

[Ether]

Uh...so what is the proposed newbie setup right now? I really think you're overcomplicating it to hell with strongmen and such. (I liked simple semiopens like F11 when I did play, but I haven't actually played in almost a year, so I admit that maybe I am not the ideal audience.)

I still feel strongly that there should be more ICs per game, and putting in more SEs is not solving that problem. I am not really opposed to throwing in more SEs, but they are not role models. They are random people with a minimum standard of three games which might or might not still be ongoing.

I think it would be interesting to PM a survey to every single first-time player as soon as it dies/replaces out/its game ends. I guess that could be a new mod duty? That's distinct from retention rates, though.

What kind of concrete standards can we implement, that don't rely as heavily on my subjective judgement?

I don't think it can be done totally objectively, but I think it can be done without placing the burden on you. Like, any first-time person with IC cred is allowed to play a newbie game, and if it flakes or the mod thinks it didn't cut it (or the players think so and the mod doesn't veto that) then it can't join the queue/replace IC slots for some amount of time, which increases every time the player gets a strike. Maybe with some volunteer council to secondguess the mod's stance if the player wants to appeal it.

[quadz08]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

[Ether]

Well now that's just tacky.

[quadz08]

I think it's quite elegant.

[BBmolla]

I like it.

Need to specify how Roleblocker vs. Jailkeeper works out though.

[Remembrance]

I like it too.

I mean, I think it works and I want to see how the tracker class works in a newbie game. I also like the other newbie rules that are coming into effect. The 1-shot strongman is my only *ehhhhhhh* feeling as far as the frame work goes.

We can check the statistics to see how it goes after, if it doesn't work out the mods can always change it.

[RichardGHP]

I like it.

Need to specify how Roleblocker vs. Jailkeeper works out though.

It should work as I outlined a long time ago: roleblocks cancel each other out; JK's protect still works.

[zoraster]

i think it's elegant, easy to understand, and pretty brilliant.

goon, goon cop is just fine.

the only one that's concerning to me is roleblocker, cop vs. rolecop. that's a lot of town power.

[Human Destroyer]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

A friend of mine and I were talking and we were thinking that JK and RB should be switched, same with Cop/Doc; allows for avoiding RB/Cop vs. Rolecop, which is horribly townsided.

[quadz08]

I think the balance issues are of relatively limited importance in a newbie. *shrug*

Also, singer and I have discussed it, and we've decided that in the case that the Jailkeeper and Roleblocker target one another, the Jailkeeper will take priority. This means the Roleblocker will be roleblocked and protected from a non-strongman kill, effectively turning it into a Doc-VT situation for the night.


P-Edit: Doc/JK vs Rolecop is actually incredibly townsided. See the newbie setup data on 2of4.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I like Quilford's.

Doc/JK, beyond being townsided, also leads to annoyingly drawn out games.

[zoraster]

that's a weird solution. it seems like the RB should get priority over a JK if anyone does, but i guess so long as there's a policy.

[zoraster]

maybe the solution is just to get rid of the diagonals? I don't think you lose anything by getting rid of goon, rb, doctor vs. goon and you avoid RB, Cop vs. rolecop

What should the setup be called? Matrix6?

[Ether]

Unless there's something I'm missing--and I acknowledge that I haven't played or looked at Little Italy in a long time--I just don't really think the strongman has any place in a newbie game.

[Faraday]

Why? (What defines what place a role has?)

[Faraday]

that's a weird solution. it seems like the RB should get priority over a JK if anyone does, but i guess so long as there's a policy.

(Agreed here, doesn't seem to make a major difference other way as it seems to only apply to when they target each other, I think?)

Presumably the jailer doesn't get priority in a roleblock chain?

[quadz08]

maybe the solution is just to get rid of the diagonals? I don't think you lose anything by getting rid of goon, rb, doctor vs. goon and you avoid RB, Cop vs. rolecop

What should the setup be called? Matrix6?

Removing the diags is worth thinking about. Singer and I will brain at it later.

Singer called it "Queueb" (pronounced 'cube') in discussion with Quilford last night.

Unless there's something I'm missing--and I acknowledge that I haven't played or looked at Little Italy in a long time--I just don't really think the strongman has any place in a newbie game.

Strongman is becoming more common in the site meta (in my experience, at least), and I don't think there's a reason it

shouldn't

be in a newbie game. *shrug*

[quadz08]

that's a weird solution. it seems like the RB should get priority over a JK if anyone does, but i guess so long as there's a policy.

(Agreed here, doesn't seem to make a major difference other way as it seems to only apply to when they target each other, I think?)

Presumably the jailer doesn't get priority in a roleblock chain?

What do you mean in a roleblock chain?

If there's a chain of JK targets RB target Goon, then the Jailkeeper's action resolves first because it's at the top of the chain. If it's RB targets JK targets Goon, the RB's action resolves first because it's at the top of the chain. *shrug*

[Faraday]

I mean exactly what you just explained. Yes.

[Faraday]

Strongman isn't particularly common, but I don't think that really matters that much?

[Ether]

Half the people I mentioned this thread to asked me to clarify what a strongman even is. These are, like, class of 2005-2007 types. I kind of think that says something about the role's normality. Like I said, if every other Little Italy game has them these days and I'm just letting my old age shine through, I guess that's one thing, but if they're not in vogue there yet, I don't think it's the Road to Rome's place to toss them into 1/4th of all games for newbies.

[quadz08]

Do you have a suggestion to replace it with?