Micro 151: Mafia in New-Newbie Land (Game over!)

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: ce

I prefer gas powered cities

[borkjerfkin]

^

Decent place to start; serious vote or no?

[borkjerfkin]

I should think it obvious it was not. You seem to feel otherwise to the point you had to ask. Why is that?

[borkjerfkin]

I should think it obvious it was not. You seem to feel otherwise to the point you had to ask. Why is that?

Just wondering if CE's second vote on Majiffy, without anything else in her post, had anything to do with your vote.

It did not.

[borkjerfkin]

So do you think CE is lying when she explicitly said why she confirmed when she did?

[borkjerfkin]

Majiffy not RVSing is par for him.

[borkjerfkin]

He's just an aggressive and abrasive player and there's a subculture on this site about people sheeping him to win.

Actually just here

Anyway I have a tiny townread on Mothrax right now. Waiting for Pala to respond to City's #50 before I have anything to say about him.

[borkjerfkin]

@bork - Can you explain what you meant by your post #12?

As I mentioned, I wanted to know if your vote was serious or not. Some people use "last to confirm" as an RVS reason, and some might use it as something of a weak scumtell, as you seem to have done.

I don't have a scumread on Pala, which I might've if he tried to maneuver this CE thing into something it isn't.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes.

[borkjerfkin]

According to what he himself said elsewhere, he drastically changes his playstyle in every game.

Yeah I said that in an ongoing game =\

Hmm. If that was the case, I would've expected you to follow it up more aggressively than you did.

Why?

[borkjerfkin]

Eh

VOTE: Wisdom

Gut / some of his stuff seems obtuse

[borkjerfkin]

some of his stuff seems obtuse

Care to give an example?

Sure.

#25 and #34 both look like he's just trying to keep his target off balance more than actually make a point. In #25, he doesn't say anything about why elvis repeating a question that had already been posed by someone else is telling or even relevant.

#34 looks like he's trying to look like he doesn't understand the point Pala is trying to make (which IS a weak point, but I think it's pretty obvious what he was trying to say there: scum gets more pregame time by potentially delaying a confirm. I think it's a weak point because I don't think either most people would think to care nor do I believe pregame talk is terribly useful from experience)

I think #71 is another example of this -- I think elvis' slightly tongue in cheek point here (you call me town = I like you!) was obvious and Wisdom went the derp route with it.

[borkjerfkin]

Hey Mr e roll, all you ever do is ask questions and don't really provide analysis.

It's getting annoying. I also think it's a way to fake participation. Like hey I'll just keep asking questions to look like I'm helping but I'm not actually doing shit! I havent even given any opinions!

VOTE: Mr. E roll

(Shut your pie hole, Wisdom!)

Wisdom does this as well, and unlike Mr. E Roll, his questions/comments are pretty much pointless.

That being said, I don't like how Xegarus is essentially lurking at this point, so

VOTE: Xegarus

Quick post

I haven't posted in 20 hours and that makes me a lurker?
...
Stop grasping at straws.

I think other than the beetlejuice (and with a sample size of 1 I'm not going to worry about that too much) The tone here is off. I'm getting a "your reasons for calling me scummy are insufficient" rather than a "I can't believe I'm even having this conversation" vibe from this. I see scum subconsciously having the former attitude and town having the latter.

[borkjerfkin]

Scumreading Wisdom and Xegarus right now. Everyone else is town or null. Mothrax is very town. Elvis seems genuine.

Need more from CE in particular -- her townreads are parrots of what Majiffy said and that's not good.

[borkjerfkin]

@ bork and Wisdom -- can you explain why you feel so confident that moth is town?

Yep --

My initial read was for #37, which I think is a good acknowledgement that scumreads are an analog thing and he wasn't trying to make a bigger deal out of his vote than needed to be on page 1/2.

The exchange with Majiffy solidified the read -- I think scum might've taken two potential routes with that
1) Continue the pissing match indefinitely in the hopes that someone calls it town on town or they see a crack in the armor
2) Immediately call Majiffy town for pushing back at all and ignore him

He(She?) didn't do either of those -- I think he acknowledged the playstyle gap and was willing to put the argument on hold, while not making a judgment that he didn't necessarily feel he had the answer to and pursuing other avenues.

I agree that the 6/3 speculation thing is null. It's maybe less null for someone out of practice for so long but meh. Some people don't dabble in normals.

[borkjerfkin]

I support the Xegarus wagon right now -- 165 is a bad bad post.

That said, there are plenty of people I don't have very good reads on and I'm not even remotely eager to end the day right now.

I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on Wisdom, Pala, Majiffy, Mr. E, and I'm going to try to harden my reads on the latter three of those players as well. I have better handles on the others. Not much I can do w/ CE right now.

[borkjerfkin]

I really don't wanna play the wall post game with xegarus.

I think we both made our points.

I still don't like him.

I concur. Anyone else you don't/do like? We need more breadth

[borkjerfkin]

I think she's just being lazy

[borkjerfkin]

I say this because she simply hasn't moved her vote and hasn't said "I confirm this Majiffy vote as no longer random" it's just been there the whole time.

[borkjerfkin]

CE = girl

She's not an appropriate D1 lynch at this particular juncture.

[borkjerfkin]

It's not just CE we need more from. It's pretty much everyone but you, elvis, and me.

[borkjerfkin]

You're posting a lot but you're not really saying anything, so yeah.

Reads?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm honestly surprised anyone has a huge townread on Majiffy at this point. His Xegarus hop is not something I expect from his town meta.

[borkjerfkin]

You called Majiffy probtown, didn't you?

[borkjerfkin]

Well, I've never seen you do it.

If you really didn't like it you'd remove your vote; especially if this is just "wagons for the sake of wagons" (is it just that here?)

[borkjerfkin]

This is why Pala is town

Meanwhile Jiffy doesn't like the intent to hammer so early, isn't sure about Xegarus' alignment (which is fine at this stage in general) but doesn't remove his vote

[borkjerfkin]

I find it interesting that elvis did not express that concern when I told her she still wasn't voting him. She simply ignored me and finally voted after two posts, without any concern for the early L-1.

Tiptoeing (or lack thereof) about putting someone at L-1 is a bullshit tell

[borkjerfkin]

Potential scumtell noted.

p-edit: re: Pala's latest post.

Dude I pretty much made Pala's last post EXACTLY in my first newbie game regarding meanmelter wagon

[borkjerfkin]

I'm fine if you don't consider it a towntell

how the shit is it a scumtell

[borkjerfkin]

I wasn't talking to Wisdom in #216, sorry, that was to Majiffy

[borkjerfkin]

"Ok maybe this may look _____ but" followed by doing EXACTLY what was just prescribed by another player as to "you would look town if" is a massive scumtell I used constantly on EM. I haven't seen it pop up much here.

Eh, fine. I wasn't looking at it with regard to my post.
Still, why did you NOT jump off it?

[borkjerfkin]

Ergo threat of hammer by Mothrax is akin to North Korea trying to threaten the US with a nuclear strike.

Vehemently disagree, but not much more I can get from you here.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't understand why you're putting so much weight on this "claiming = woe is town" thing. This is not where I thought your head was.

[borkjerfkin]

I mean at it's most primal level, the only real "mistake" you should be worried about is getting town lynched; withholding support on a wagon because of underdeveloped interactions that could lead to a better idea of who might be scum is perfectly reasonable.

You're emphasizing claiming rather than emphasizing what his alignment might be when he does flip. That is weird to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Meh. I think I believe you.

[borkjerfkin]

Pretty much don't have a read on Mr. E

[borkjerfkin]

1) I addressed this -- I really don't want to end the day at all right now; Xegarus read is there but interactions with everyone are lacking. Pretty much no one is commenting on things NOT Xegarus (except Majiffy -- good on him for that)

2) Wisdom looked scummy early and hasn't really done anything to change that. Do I find him scummier than Xeg at this point? I don't know -- I think I need to reread for that. Majiffy says I'm misreading Wisdom's meta and I'd actually like him to elaborate on that.

And are your reasons for this still the same?

Work in progress. Reasons are added as I go.

[borkjerfkin]

Aight.

The situation here needs to simmer for a bit.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah maybe that was the wrong word to use.

Fuck it time to drink

[borkjerfkin]

@xeg - your vote on Bork is basically an omgus. What exactly is your case against him?

@mod - can you please prod Mr. E? Thanks

@moth - I don't recall seeing anything in your posts about xeg except for where you asked how the rest of us felt about CE given she was also short on content/posts. I will go back and see if I can find anything else after I've had some sleep as well.

FUCK YOU PALA YOU STUPID SITE BREAKING NINJA.
My vote against bork is because he very subjectively said something i did was scummy, hasn't said much about me since just that i'm scummy and refused to say anything relevant to the posts i have made.
He is just ignoreing what i am saying without the decency to correct me where i may be wrong.
If im so scummy to him, he should have no problem tearing my posts apart.

Uh yeah, the point of mafia is not to get people to admit they're being scummy or win an argument against them; it's to get their suspects lynched, and pretty much everyone wants you lynched right now. Having the "decency to correct you" is not an obligation nor goal of mine.

Still I'm wondering if you're voting me BECAUSE I'm not voting you -- looks less like OMGUS that way, and there are people taking a much more hardline stance against you without debating you into the ground.

Still not enough people giving reads on people other than Xegarus.

[borkjerfkin]

I wouldn't consider the wagon disbanded, just no one is freaking talking about anybody else. Elvis do you have any other strongish reads?

Xeg was saying how he doesn't like people giving ALL reads.

This is pretty null

[borkjerfkin]

What a wonderful journey

[borkjerfkin]

I'll tell you what, I'll unvote and you vote first before i vote again. Just to make it look more like an OMGUS. To answer your concern, no. I'm not voting you because you are not voting me. But i do wonder why you aren't voting me.

Seriously if you have to ask this, you're not paying any fucking attention.

Things I want to do
1) Get people's reads
2) Promote more interactions with the less involved players
3) Unstall the fucking game (get CE replaced?)

Things I don't want to do
1) Lynch you right now.
2) Get into a wall war with you. I'm sorry you don't think I'm explaining myself well to you but in the end I don't really care -- gauging your reactions to other things are more important than winning an argument.

[borkjerfkin]

If this lack of activity continues to deadline I'm just gonna sheep Majiffy.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't have a very good read on ANYONE (except maybe mothrax)

Seriously how am I not explaining myself at all? I think I'm being one of the most forthcoming people in the game

[borkjerfkin]

dude help me out here nobody is doing anything

[borkjerfkin]

Xeg is actually looking townier I just don't get his angle on me in particular (as opposed to like you who just voted with no explanation)

[borkjerfkin]

Ok -- but really if that one post is your entire objection to me you're fucking overreacting like crazy.

[borkjerfkin]

I honestly did not know that was your angle, that I didn't explain why I didn't like one particular post of yours -- you voted me for agreeing with elvis about something and then say that I "haven't done anything" which is fucking shit -- I'm trying to clarify every slot as best as I'm able.

But really that post that I called bad draws very little conclusions and more importantly only comments on things that specifically concern your slot. In fact that's all you've done the whole game is responded to pressure.

[borkjerfkin]

I actually think xeg makes a compelling point about elvis.

[borkjerfkin]

You're still not voting him.

I find it interesting that elvis did not express that concern when I told her she still wasn't voting him. She simply ignored me and finally voted after two posts, without any concern for the early L-1.

I don't know, given she was hesistant to vote him early on (see 139), ignoring me there and L-1ing without any concern looked to me like nervousness about if she should vote or not. Maybe I'm speculating too much but that's the feeling I get.

Well, as you can see, Wisdom kinda already brought it up before.
Didn't notice it?

nope

[borkjerfkin]

Well, as you can see, Wisdom kinda already brought it up before.
Didn't notice it?

nope

I find it interesting that elvis did not express that concern when I told her she still wasn't voting him. She simply ignored me and finally voted after two posts, without any concern for the early L-1.

Tiptoeing (or lack thereof) about putting someone at L-1 is a bullshit tell

VOTE: bork

Apparently I did read it and forgot

You've caught me in a dumb. Congrats.

[borkjerfkin]

wait that's not even the same point

[borkjerfkin]

Point Xeg made: elvis is driving xeg wagon without voting
Point Wisdom made: elvis is doing such because of L-1 awkawardness

I don't care about the second one

[borkjerfkin]

but now this slip of his says otherwise.

Does it?

Does it really?

Why is that. Explain what I'm trying to accomplish here.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Pala

[borkjerfkin]

*shrug*

I tried playing my way, now it's the Jiffy way.

[borkjerfkin]

but now this slip of his says otherwise.

Does it?

Does it really?

Why is that. Explain what I'm trying to accomplish here.

It does because it is either a bold faced lie or you weren't paying attention to the game. Either of those is a scumtell in my book, albeit a weak one in case it was the latter. Which it probably was since I can't see any motive for a lie in this instance.

VOTE: Pala

Why?

1) I think Majiffy is town and I'm sheeping him: He also had a good point about you possibly unvoting in response to something I said rather than for the sake of breadth, although I can't say for sure that this is what you did.
2) You're testing the waters with your reaction to what I did and trying to see if anyone besides Wisdom is willing to bite on it. Why is not paying attention a scumtell (since you admit I have no reason to lie there)? [But really, what happened there is what I said in #294]

But mostly 1)

[borkjerfkin]

Pala I don't care about anything you said in your post except this:

Was I doing the same reaction testing with what I said about elvis too, then? Do you still think that the point Xeg made about elvis is a valid one?

Explain this -- are you suggesting that I should call you out for exhibiting "testing the waters" (I assume that's what you mean because "reaction testing" makes no sense there) behavior about not only about me but also about elvis?

Why would what I think about Xegarus' point matter here? Why would my thoughts about it have changed (they haven't)

[borkjerfkin]

Dammit Majiffy do you think Wisdom is town? I've never seen him this utterly passive and ineffective before. It's still a better read than Pala is, which I'm mostly taking on faith.

[borkjerfkin]

You didn't; I was asking if you did.

[borkjerfkin]

Other than that I'm...loster than usual

This seems to be a trend in my town games lately.

[borkjerfkin]

The more I read the more I feel it's just his playstyle. It's not a terribly good playstyle and I hope he figures that out, but I don't think it automatically makes him scum.

Meanwhile Wisdom really fucking seems to have an agenda this game. He shows up (often immediately) when he wants to snipe something someone said and other than that he just lurks and rarely comments on the gamestate at large. I don't feel that he's trying to figure shit out this game.

[borkjerfkin]

it isn't

[borkjerfkin]

I picked that game in particular because I was in it.

In that game he really dug deep trying to figure several slots out (mostly Majiffy on day 1) but I mean the transparency is through the roof there and there is a lot of detailed analysis to be found. Not here. at all.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Wisdom

Sorry Jiffy.

[borkjerfkin]

yawn

[borkjerfkin]

seriously come the fuck at me dude

[borkjerfkin]

Here's a Xeg game (that I modded). Not

too

many massive walls, but they are there.

[borkjerfkin]

Your reason for voting Xegarus is worse imo

Nice deflection AND misrep, considering

1) he'd just entered the game.
2) he's not even doing that anymore.

[borkjerfkin]

I'll bite; why not?

[borkjerfkin]

He also explained his vote fairly thoroughly (#337)

Whereas your vote on me I'm pretty sure was accompanied by two quotes and fuck all else.

[borkjerfkin]

I dunno, I think his vote is in a pretty damn good spot right now.

As for Xeg, he supplied some initial reasoning, I provided some counterexamples as to that tell being null, and he backed off. What are you looking for him to have done?

[borkjerfkin]

Oh you also implied that my switch back to you was scummy.

I'm also waiting for you to explain that.

p-edit: am I calling him town? I don't recall having done that. Are you calling him scum for the things you've brought up? Because they don't look scummy to me.

[borkjerfkin]

I won't answer questions you pose to a person; you're right, they can do that themselves. You did not do that here.

I can and will address things that you call bad that I disagree with.

[borkjerfkin]

Like what conclusion are you trying to draw in #362? Cause it looks like you're trying to call him scummy.

[borkjerfkin]

Not calling it scummy - you were just wondering why the two things you mentioned were of no importance to me. I explained to you why.

That's fair.

Are you going to ignore the other part #366 or...?

[borkjerfkin]

No, I switched off you because your wagon had no legs. Whatever Majiffy said about you had zero to do with my voting Pala and you know that, considering I never acknowledged what he said as something I agree with (although I have no doubt Majiffy believes it) and mentioned that I was outright sheeping him.

I switched back on because finally someone else was willing to lynch you. Not once has my read on you ever changed. #329 and #338 show that I still thought you were scummy while off your wagon. Try again.

[borkjerfkin]

Won't guarantee it (will be flip and night action dependent) but I'll certainly be inclined to other than that.

[borkjerfkin]

Majiffy who are your townreads right now?

[borkjerfkin]

That kinda makes me sad, mister I know bork's meta so well

[borkjerfkin]

Why wouldn't you want to read me? We could go places, me and you

[borkjerfkin]

prodprodprodprodprodprod

Deadline is looming

[borkjerfkin]

Also I'm

asking for an extension

preemptively since I think replacements are going to be happening here.

[borkjerfkin]

Thank you EK. Stating intent to hammer wasn't me saying hey guys I'm gonna hammer in 24 hours. It was me saying, hey I agree that xerg is scummy and I'm willing to hammer when the time comes. It lets the rest of the wagon know that they don't have one of those wagons that runs up to l-1 and then dies off. I wasn't ready to end the day either and wouldn't have until discussion was done. Or without a claim from xerg.

I guess the problem I have with this is that it's really easy to say "Yes I think he's scummy and I'll hammer whenever but let's explore more" and then you proceeded to pretty much just coast. What exactly do you want to explore? Your actions do not match your words.

[borkjerfkin]

Because you haven't done a damn thing since making it. If you wanted more discussion you'd have initiated/responded to more discussion in the time following. It sounds like you're just trying to avoid catching flak by saying all the "right things" regarding a hammer post but then not actually wanting to explore any more.

But let's start with Wisdom: what seems town about Wisdom? You're the first person to call him town I believe.

[borkjerfkin]

Edit: Missed your RL obligation thing. That's fine. Still want to hear about Wisdom.

[borkjerfkin]

Ok.

If you had to compromise somewhere, where would it be? I don't think I'm willing to lynch Xegarus today.

[borkjerfkin]

ok mothrax is fucking town as balls

moving on

[borkjerfkin]

If we have to go CE (and on one hand, yeah, that was scummy, on the other hand, 5 fucking posts guys) replacement + claim without exception or no deal.

[borkjerfkin]

V/LA Friday-Sunday

[borkjerfkin]

oh shi

congrats!

[borkjerfkin]

Blah i don't like anyone saying replacing out is a scumtell.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

Need to majorly reassess

[borkjerfkin]

Bork has an interesting change of heart in #323 from #211, what posts made you change your mind? Stop sheeping Majiffy and think for yourself.

I explained this already (to Pala, in fact).

It doesn't even seem like you're trying to call me scummy for sheeping Majiffy.

This is a really, really bad vote, and not just cause it's on me (although it is bad for that too); you're not accusing me of anything except what, being lazy? not thinking? Why does that warrant a vote?

This game is not PoEable and that makes me sad.

[borkjerfkin]

I'd feel much better about elvis if I knew how she felt about anyone besides xegarus.

[borkjerfkin]

so reading up on what I missed over the weekend and I'm still good with my vote on Wisdom but I think elvis made a good point about X, the OMGUS is strong with that one. I'd still rather lynch wisdom. he hasn't done a damn thing pro-town

My vote will probably end up here if deadline dictates the play of the day, but all I really have on him is loose meta tells and general uselessness this particular game.

That I don't have a strong townread on anyone but mothrax is not helping.

[borkjerfkin]

Get fucked dude

help me

[borkjerfkin]

(You sheeped me onto Wisdom)

And now I have cold feet because there is no bastion of towniness anywhere this game.

@Mac -- 323, 328.

[borkjerfkin]

So did that case exist in your mind when you initially voted me? Because if so, you didn't mention it (and why not?), and if not, well, I don't like how you just happen to know you'd want to make a case against the player you initially voted for a crap reason.

Also re: your case. Yes I have wishy-washy reads this game. Pala's done some town things and some scum things. #288 screamed to me at the time that he was prepping to be the third or fourth vote on me if that wagon gained any traction, and he backed way the hell off when I pressured him about it. #317 shows that he might actually believe not paying attention is scum sort of scumtell (it's not) which throws my earlier argument into doubt.

As for Majiffy, he's been almost the only person considering the entire player list in his posts (although Jake's been pretty good about that since replacing in). This is a combination of meta and gut for me. He's done some goofy shit this game too, but he's not pushing an agenda that I can see. The "forgetting why he's voting wisdom" thing is a towntell for anyone but him -- Majiffy is one of those players who tries to forget his alignment in games -- and therefore I have to take it as a null tell.

But seriously, I think I'm being pretty damn obvious that I'm just trying to figure the game out and failing.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork the sentence before I say stop sheeping Majiffy mentions it and asks you why.

Yeah, I see. I think that's ok.

I'm not sure why you're quoting something from 11 pages ago though. Shit has changed since then.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm ok with Mac being town at the moment.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm saying I have a townread on Majiffy now, then you post something from when I didn't. I don't know what to say to that.

Why do you think I'm trying to discredit you? Stop fucking tunneling.

[borkjerfkin]

At the time Majiffy was on Xeg, I didn't have a townread on him.

The way he clarified his read on Xeg and pushed Pala is not something I would think scum Majiffy would have done.

I think he's wrong about Mothrax blowing smoke with his intent to hammer but I still think he believes that to be so.

I'm not trying to goddamn discredit you, I'm trying to make you understand. Jesus.

[borkjerfkin]

Why do you think that scum can't "explain" that a case on them is "wrong"?

These rhetoricals man --

What do they accomplish?

I think it's pretty obvious what he's really asking -- do you accept his explanation or do you not?

[borkjerfkin]

this is really stupid.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork has been fluff posting

I don't think you know what that word means.

[borkjerfkin]

Point to like any of my posts that aren't game related

[borkjerfkin]

Uh pretty much none of the numbers you just typed are posts from me

[borkjerfkin]

I think almost every post in my ISO either makes an observation/analysis or asks a question

that is by definition not fluff

so what the fuck are you talking about

[borkjerfkin]

Ok mothrax is officially full of shit.

Great yeah I make one one-liner post when no one posts for the whole fucking day. Big goddamn deal.

What the fuck is "weak on content"? I've actively engaged every slot in the game and tried to develop reads. If you think I'm being disingenuous with that, then like I told wisdom, come the fuck at me.

I can't believe you have the fucking balls to say I'm fluff posting.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm fucking done with this day.

Elvis I've asked you for reads on non-Xegarus players several times -- please give them.

VOTE: Wisdom

I have no idea what fucking angle he was trying to work with Mac, but he clearly doesn't have any intention of following up with that. He's being useless and obtuse and that's simply not what I'm used to from him.

Mac, Jake, Majiffy for town right now, in that order. Mothrax is probably still town right now but I'm so mad at him/her that I can't think clearly about it.

p-edit: quality over quantity, for fuck's sake. Walling is for chumps.

[borkjerfkin]

(That's L-1)

[borkjerfkin]

Oh Xeg is town too.

[borkjerfkin]

He's being useless and obtuse and that's simply not what I'm used to from him.

Did you check if I'm useless and obtuse when I'm scum?

Yes (although it was for something else)

I compared Newbie 1331 (town) to Newbie 1330 (scum). I feel like you were really forthcoming with analysis in 1331, whereas in 1330 you mostly asked open ended questions without judgment, did a lot of IIoA posts, and didn't give all that many reads.

I believe you are doing the latter here.

[borkjerfkin]

Meta isn't my entire beef with you.

You're still not

doing anything useful

in this game.

[borkjerfkin]

That is a silly thing to say.

[borkjerfkin]

There have been such things in your posts, in elvis' posts and in Mac's posts, all of which I have pointed out.

Ok. I'm going to make one last attempt to work with you here. You initially voted me in #287 for something you believe to be a contradiction. I have two problems with this

1) I explained why I don't think it's a contradiction
2) Even if you DO, you have failed to explain what could possibly be scummy about it. This looked to me like you're just trying to pin whatever you can on me and it's really fucking frustrating

I agree that elvis is losing townyness at a great rate due to her lack of engagement.
I don't think Mac is at all scummy -- I do think the lead into talking about me was more graceful than it looked because he did mention me abruptly changing my mind at one point in the game.

[borkjerfkin]

If you really believed that reasoning on D1 is inherently weak, you'd never have even made 512.

Also I feel like you're ignoring me.

[borkjerfkin]

You are being dichotomous. If his reasoning is just plain

wrong

(instead of just not well developed) you should have said so at the time.

I don't know how the explanation of "It's day 1" somehow bridges the gap between what you believe to be a fallacious argument and a gut read.

[borkjerfkin]

That told me that the meaning of his argument was that he was going with his gut - his gut told him that "this guy is scumhunting, must be town"

I don't know that I believe this, and I don't see how you get from "I am using something I perceive as a (admittedly weak) towntell to say bork is town" to "I have a gut feeling about bork". I mean the former is pretty clear-cut inductive reasoning and the tacit implication is that town genuinely scumhunt more often than scum appear to genuinely scumhunt. There is probably a kernel of truth to it but it's extremely playstyle sensitive and therefore probably not terribly useful.

You're being dichotomous in the sense that you initially called the reasoning weak, and after it was pointed out that you believe reasoning on D1 to be commonly weak, you moved the goalposts on exactly how you claim to be interpreting 511/513, because otherwise it just looks like you're mudslinging in 512.

I also have to assume that you have no plan to address #565 since you've addressed everything since that and did not address that.

[borkjerfkin]

It can help us and make him look worse. 2 bitches, 1 rope.

I realize I'm echoing, but this sentence in particular does not sound like town.

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom is toxic regardless of alignment.

I actually really don't agree with this. This is why this particular game is sticking out like a sore thumb to me.



Additionally, Wisdom is ignoring the shit out of plenty of things I've specifically asked for elaboration on today.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh. Well I'm not going to white knight you on that point.

[borkjerfkin]

Let's talk about the fact that absolutely nobody is hard defending Wisdom at all -- I think the only recent townread I see on him was from mothrax and even that read he said had been degrading.

I don't know if that makes him more likely town or scum, but it's certainly something I don't really ever see and it's worth pointing out.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah yeah I got it.

[borkjerfkin]

If Elvis hammers you without a claim we'll all be very disappointed in her.

But let's talk Elvis -- after a quick reskim of her early stuff I don't particularly like #161, where she's trying to call Mr. E scummy for advising prudence re: Xeg wagon (which is about as null a tell as you can get) and she tries to pin it as scummy regardless of what alignment Xeg turned out to be. That's pretty bad.

And then her huge tunnel on Xeg/fade afterward.

[borkjerfkin]

Forgot to respond to:

Its the 'makes him look worse' part isnt it. I said worse cause thats all Jake seems to be trying to do with me.

Yes -- it makes it look like you know you are not on Wisdom's team. If you were to flip scum I'd probably upgrade my read on Wisdom for this.

[borkjerfkin]

Not willing to even consider elvis until she gets more involved -- my read on her is really stale and there are no good interactions with her.

[borkjerfkin]

Possibly, although mac coming in as a townread muddies the waters a bit as it probably means one of my other reads is way off. Chk's still null for now because I find it hard to read post by post catchup type of things since the mindset changes so quickly and I was way back and forth on Pala.

Not mothrax, not mac. Majiffy's weirding me out lately...his interactions with me are really superficial and he's gone into tunnel mode on you which is not helpful for reading him. Jake's probably town but that read is weak too...he has buddied me incredibly hard this game so far for having such a weak day 1 read (not that I want to get into that whole thing again)

Elvis is too removed from the game to be a good source of info, although I'm not counting her out.

But you're not doing anything to convince me you're town.

p-edit: AtE/F is really not going to do it.

[borkjerfkin]

Xeg lynch just got a tiny bit better as I have a potential negative connection between you and him, too.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah I mentioned Xeg in #637 as I realized I forgot him.

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom the bulk of my problem with you this game is that you've basically asked unhelpful open ended questions, made little to no analysis, and stuck a vote on me that you have flat out ignored to back up when pressed on it.

Why the hell should I find you town for that?

[borkjerfkin]

Why not? You're avoiding being accountable for your reads by not explaining them, you're not moving the game along by following up on your questions, and I see no town motivated thought process for you ever to have legitimately thought I was scum, ergo I have to assume you're being disingenuous. These are all things I would expect from scum.

If you were town you'd have no problem explaining your thought process to me as I have done with everyone who has taken issue with me this game.

[borkjerfkin]

If I have one problem with Mothrax it's that he is giving Wisdom a free pass for banal play while trying to nitpick the shit out of mine by cherry picking like the 5% of my posts that are not game relevant.

[borkjerfkin]

but found it a good point when Xeg said the same things in different words.

And I have explained several times that Xeg was saying "elvis is possibly scummy for totally backseat driving this wagon without a vote on it"

Whereas you were saying "elvis is scummy for not being cautious about an L-1 vote". If that was a segue from an argument about the fact that elvis had not been interested in voting xeg beforehand at all, then yes, I did miss that part of the argument and I'm sorry.

[borkjerfkin]

And if I have one problem with Majiffy it's that he is, in the last few pages, acting exactly like he was acting in Open 454 wherein I led town around by the dick the whole game and he was content to let me do that while soft buddying me but otherwise not interacting with me outside of fluff.

This is why his early pushes made me think yay happy town for Majiffy.

[borkjerfkin]

That's not even close to good enough:

1) Those slots have not flipped yet so if you're town you can't possibly know that much less use it as any credible reason
2) Majiffy is nigh famous for bussing as scum

I am going to revisit his reasons on those wagons though.

[borkjerfkin]

those slots HAVE NOT FLIPPED YET so you're basically saying "Majiffy has voted three people, one of them was probably scum"

Yeah, probably -- I'd put it at above a 50% chance even. So what?

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah as recently as #543 you were leaning town on Majiffy and that was waaaaay after all that shit happened.

What changed?

[borkjerfkin]

I rarely see majiffy provide good reasons for his vote. Fuck in a game we played together I found scum and majiffy got all the credit and people just thought I bussed.

majiffy not giving reasons is par for the course imo

Can you describe what made this look like Majiffy's town play early on to you? Because I agree but I find I can't articulate it very well.

[borkjerfkin]

@Wisdom -- 658 looks like you're trying to call Majiffy scum ("that's enough for me"). Are you not doing that?

[borkjerfkin]

@Jake: thanks.

@Wisdom: can you give updated reads for me?

[borkjerfkin]

Blood from a stone! that's a little better and it's making me less wanting to (what amounts to a policy) lynch you. That said I don't know that I have a strong enough scumread on anyone else. If Elvis is replaced hopefully we'll get an extension.

I agree that the Xeg/Elvis pair has a snowball's chance in hell.

[borkjerfkin]

Jake, CE's vote that elvis talked about was very obviously a lazily handled RVS transition. I don't think her points there had any merit.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't see anyone trying to lynch you.

[borkjerfkin]

bork/Jiff isn't an impossible scum team, either.

pfff, I wish. But yes, yes it is.

[borkjerfkin]

Because I'm not seeing what I saw Bullshit Townsucked Mafia.?

Is this 161? Lol

p-edit heh.

[borkjerfkin]

Why would I go about showing we're not a team rather than I'm just not scum.

Like seriously I'm fucking annoyed as shit I haven't been written off by 100% of the game as obvtown rather than 50%

[borkjerfkin]

waht

[borkjerfkin]

If wisdom is so confirmed scum to you, why not save the easy one for last?

Why the fuck do people say shit like this.

[borkjerfkin]

Xegarus what do YOU think about Wisdom?

[borkjerfkin]

@Xeg: And I assume you think Elvis is scummier? So why not just say that you want elvis lynched because she's a more confident scumread to you than Wisdom instead of this stupid crap you're pulling?

[borkjerfkin]

this fuckin game.

[borkjerfkin]

Why should I do that? I don't have a fucking very good read on elvis and you flipping town probably isn't going to change that

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom you used circular reasoning when you talked about Majiffy possibly being scum on the last page; "this explains his actions if you assume he's scum" is not how you prove someone is scum.

[borkjerfkin]

I mean as town you should be considered with what is probable, not what is possible. Otherwise we don't get anywhere.

I don't think anything's getting me to switch my vote today.

[borkjerfkin]

Except I didn't want to prove he's scum but to bring up the possibility that he might be scum.

Do you not understand that this is

self-evident

to everyone with a town alignment in the game?

[borkjerfkin]

You got reasons why he might be scum. I didn't want to argue that he's scum and he's a good lynch, and I think that's obvious.

Then the town response is "I'm currently unsure / I have conflicting reads / I have a null read on Majiffy" and then we drop it.

Not "Majiffy might be scum" everyone

might

be scum, to me. That doesn't help me. Town wants to close improbable avenues of exploration; scum wants to open all avenues of exploration regardless of probability, and that looks like what you were doing.

[borkjerfkin]

Majiffy is more likely to be scum than most others, at least imo.

Then why the shit are you saying after all this that you have a null read on him?

@chk -- why do you not want to hammer Wisdom if he's in your most likely scum group?

[borkjerfkin]

Anyone else find it out that moth posted this but didnt say shit about anything else that was happening at the time?

Yeah, Moth has been hovering in this forum all day.

[borkjerfkin]

borkmcgork, I just don't want to hammer him yet.

Ok -- I didn't get that impression since to "avoid a no-lynch" is something I inferred as "no better option available". That's fine.

@Xeg -- yeah I fucked that up, sorry.

[borkjerfkin]

Also I think it's weird that all your teams are people who have interacted heavily with each other.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh you had him as null but most people as town. My bad.

[borkjerfkin]

Just because I'm mistaken on a single point does not mean that you're suddenly town.

[borkjerfkin]

Well, if you're town, I want you to actually start making cogent points on people so I can see your thought process and realize you're town.

If you're scum, well, I want you to die.

[borkjerfkin]

It's a start. I'd like to see what Xeg has to say about it since he's been kinda avoiding talking about you all game.

[borkjerfkin]

Why exactly are you avoiding reading me? That is really weird considering how much i am affecting the game

[borkjerfkin]

Why does that at all warrant a vote

[borkjerfkin]

I think he was making fun of you for being abnormally candid.

[borkjerfkin]

Is wisdom redeeming his slot or what is this all the sudden

[borkjerfkin]

Cause using this little thing as a catalyst for a wagon hop smells like bullshit to me

[borkjerfkin]

I dont really know, nor do I see how that is relevant. That innocuous thing is being used as a stepping stone to switch wagons.

That does not sit well with me.

Or did you mean just voting people for being amtitown?

[borkjerfkin]

Thats.not how it works. Im not disputing your pala/chk scumread. Why does chkflip get to be your top scumread for that and why is the.wisdom wagon worth ditching?

[borkjerfkin]

Wisdom was a mediocre vote compared to my Pala read. Given Chkflips recent scum behavior, I really think he's the better play here.

You were all like "sheep me guys Wisdom's flipping scum" only a few pages ago. I can't tell if you're just selectively paying attention to the game or full of it.

And you know goddamn well it's not viable less than 24 hours before deadline

You're off my townlist.

[borkjerfkin]

Also Mothrax is avoiding the game like the plague the last few days

[borkjerfkin]

I had no idea mothrax was a hydra

I'll switch at the end if I have to, but I don't feel very good about a Xeg lynch. Majiffy might've forced my hand on it though.

[borkjerfkin]

Mithras

is reading along and commenting when needed. His laptop crashed so he is limited to phone posting for a bit. He's also ending the semester and has several assignments due. That said

I'm

around.

I guess this is confusing then?

[borkjerfkin]

Yep, especially the way in which Majiffy moved off the wagon. Chkflip has endorsed wisdom wagon.

p-edit: I'll do it if we can't get a quorum for you. I do not yet believe that to be true.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah I saw that. My initial reaction was that he was trying to manipulate majiffy's vote but on reread I think he was trying to say "my wagon is better than yours" in a cheeky way, especially considering #703.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't recall Majiffy answering the bolded, did he? and if so link?

That question was to me and it was a dumb question. I should not have to prove that I'm not scum with Majiffy; that is both less productive and less transparent than proving I am not scum at all.

[borkjerfkin]

Seriously let's fucking move this shit.

Anyone not on Wisdom or Xeg needs to get on Wisdom or Xeg immediately.

[borkjerfkin]

You need to claim.

[borkjerfkin]

You need to get on elvis.
But if i must, i'll jump onto wisdom before bed. But thats like 4 hours from now so i'm fine with elvis atm.

Nobody's interested in lynching elvis today. What are you doing

[borkjerfkin]

God fuck I am coming really close to wanting to switch here.

[borkjerfkin]

You have a 0% chance of me sheeping you Xeg. I have a festering null read on elvis.

[borkjerfkin]

Someone please start being town

@Xeg: uhhhh?

[borkjerfkin]

And my comp bluescreened. I did not know comps still did that. One moment.

[borkjerfkin]

Xeg I have not the fucking words

[borkjerfkin]

You've just added another layer of "is he just being an idiot" or "is he scum pretending to be an idiot" that I have to sift through.

Thanks.

p-edit: Well that's fucking great

[borkjerfkin]

what were you?

[borkjerfkin]

Well that's a fucking bag of shit right there.

I can see Majiffy pulling this shit as either alignment. I'll figure him out later.

[borkjerfkin]

lol why are you still trying to prove he's scum?

[borkjerfkin]

lol why are you still trying to prove he's scum?

[borkjerfkin]

I was going to claim and ask if i should hammer myself before doing anything.
You could have asked for a claim instead of hammering.

Why the fuck would we say "you know what, go ahead and self-hammer regardless of your true alignment that sounds awesome"

What were you thinking?

[borkjerfkin]

Majiffy probably is scum for trying to point out logical holes in Xeg's plan rather than just being outright pissed about it.

[borkjerfkin]

Uh because it resulted in a town lynch?

[borkjerfkin]

As I said before, town PRs don't play that kind of game. I knew the largest risk possible was VT. Plus, asking you to claim lessens the impact of teaching you a lesson about self-voting and why it's inherently anti-town and shouldn't be done.

No fuck this shit

Die

[borkjerfkin]

Tell me more about how poorly you think I perform as scum that I would be so blatantly scummy in twilight after quickhammering a townie on day one in a micro. Really, I'm very interested in your theories.

Don't fucking start this self-WIFOM shit with me

[borkjerfkin]

That's a call for replacing out, not self voting.