NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Red Ryu]

The last large I was in with only one killing role was getting towards three years ago.

As claims go, saying the sun rises in the morning is about the only thing safer.

Content ETA?

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 5 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, BeautyAndTheBeast)

Red Ryu - 5 (Oversoul, Thor665, Baby Spice, Mac, Bulbazak)

Bulbazak - 3 (Om the Destroyer, fuzzybutternut, EddieFenix)
Oversoul - 2 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Cephrir)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)
DLG - 1 (Desperado)

Not Voting - 6 (Syryana, Slandaar, Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, ArcAngel9)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

[Red Ryu]

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

He was lying. Oversoul lied about having information. Why do you keep pretending like he never admitted this?!? It's bizarre and unsettling.

That is irrelevant because Nacho did not know this for a fact at the time.

His tells are still there.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

dumb as fuck Mollie

Sorry, mate, but you don't hold a candle to her.

Ceph is also in the scum read list.

You should vote him then.

The above signifies taking active, meaningful action in response to something trying to stop a situation. You'll note that I did not do this; as soon as something came along that I perceived could push us out of RVS, I followed up on it. This is the exact

opposite

of perpetuating. It also answers your second question.

Now kindly fuck off.

So, I take it that you didn't find Thor665's Betegeuse tell on Oversoul something that could push us out of RVS? I'm curious about your Oversoul read. Do you have one?

And, for what it's worth, you're not nearly impressive enough to dismiss me. No matter your own over-inflated self-image.

Read OS as town, which I'm fairly certain is blatantly obvious if you look at my posts in this game.

Your lack of awareness to the aforementioned is a good argument in favor of your own lack of impressiveness.

We appear to have very different definitions of buddying. Could you share yours and how it applies to how I developed my read on you? Or, failing that, could you explain why you're throwing mud at me?

I think you're scum. Which, again, is blatantly obvious if you look at my posts.

I know that wasn't part of your case on Cephrir. My intent was to say that your case on him is weak.

Then argue against it. I made a cohesive post; shoot down my points.

Otherwise, this is just rhetoric with no backing.

I think the case is weak because the initial point about trying to prevent exiting RVS is o.k. as a starting point for many games. But, I truly don't think it's a real valid indicator of alignment. I also think it's weak because your accusation isn't really accurate.

That's not the whole case either. Maybe you should spend a sunny afternoon reading through my ISO. You seem to be missing an awful lot.

My general rule of thumb when analyzing reactions to a D1 massclaim suggestion is that the most likely scum reaction is no reaction.
...
B&B is the worst offender in this game, because they've been very active throughout.

Hey, moron, go look at my early posted reads around that time and look at who was actively involved in which side of the mass claim arguments.

I have never personally seen scum support D1 massclaim. The following players did:

Does this include scum being the initial voice for the idea? Because if so, look at Aunt Jemina in YCBA Probably at least one other scum on that team also supported the idea.

Although I think I already had you as scum, so this kind of BS makes sense.

Second, I think Mollie is tempering Majiffy enough to make the hydra readable.

More like 20 hours a week of blackjack dealer training on top of all my other engagements.

@ slandaar - why are you staying away from us?

Are you scum?

That's Mollie's way of saying she wants to work together.

If you AREN'T voting nacho after this post, you need to explain why

Mollie can read Nacho better than I can. Also Cephrir is like 100% scum.

Why aren't you voting Cephrir? You should explain that.

Eddie and Slandaar and Oversoul seriously wtf?

I'm trying to move this game in a direction and you three are being deliberately anti-town by not even responding to my strong assertion I made just 4 posts ago

guys bc is right. this is scum nacho we are seeing

VOTE: nacho

Welp.

Any gut feels of reads or anything.

I feel an overwhelming compulsion to follow the flowchart.....

You mean voting Cephrir?

More in the next post.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

no. I'm not gonna vote for Nacho. Not now or ever.

Cop this guy.

No fucking no.
Do not ever try and direct night actions.
Let the person who has the role do what they feel is right.
Plus

we don't

know if there's even a damn cop in the setup.
Shut up.

Directing night actions really isn't that bad.

Are you unable to say something original?

Are you unable to

vote

the little scumbutt?

wtf no.

Directing who should be copped is far better.

You let people know who you want, if you are the cop, or you tell the cop who may not have a good pick who might be one.

If he dicides to go with a different pick fine by me.

But fuck that, I will direct what I choose.

#townposting

I am full of uber fail.
I don't think I have ever actually posted a prod dodge post before...but this is basically that.
Don't hate me.
Content will come on the weekend, pinkie swearz.

That feel.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Town

{

Bulba

,

Thor

, Slandaar,

Oversoul

, AA9,

Bacde

,

Red Ryu

,

Nero Cain

, }

Null

{The rest}

Scum

{CrashTextDummie,

Cephir

,

Nacho

, DLG,

Fuzzy

,

Om

, Fenix}

Updated reads. Bolded are strong, italicized are weak.

[Bulbazak]

Scum may have an information advantage but they do not know everything town or potentially other factions have. that fact remains Nacho did not have this knowledge at the time that OS was lying so his reactions are still legitimate tells.

Depends on the flavor of scum. A SK could safely say that there were at least 2 killing roles in the game. Mafia could too. Mafia would immediately know whether there were multiple Mafia factions are not. If there was one, they could easily extrapolate that there is likely another killing role in the game based on its size, the amount of people it took to review the game, and what little knowledge they possess of the setup, including PR density. If there are multiple mafia factions, he would know it immediately and be able to use that information. Having this information does not automatically prove the Informed Townie claim.

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

However, each night gives us more information on the bigger picture. After 2-3 nights, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to piece together how many killing factions/roles are out there.

Nacho did infact say he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

Of course he didn't believe the role was legit given the information given. Anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion. It proves nothing.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell, when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

Given the timing of the claim, the complete uselessness of the information given, and Oversoul's history of backpedaling in the game, I'd say that the claim was a very strong scumtell. Again, anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion, meaning it would be meaningless information to hand an Informed Townie. Mastin would be playing a cruel trick on Oversoul if that was the case, and seeing as how this game was reviewed by a variety of people, it makes it even more unlikely.

Why do you refuse to consider that Oversoul is scum?

[CrashTextDummie]

Hmm. Ok.

I ignored it again because I wanted to see your reaction to me ignoring it and whether or not you would expand beyond just suspecting me.

My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and unfortunately only a handful of players did.

CTD's analysis of the mass claim tell looks very town motivated and the fact that he is moving forward with his scumreads when I figured he would sit by and wait for me to respond or try to further a case against me seems very town. I am happy to call him town in this game.

Yes, my Informed Townie claim was a gambit. I do not have any special information about the setup. My extra tid bit of "I have more information" was to further the gambit more until more people had commented on it.

Color me skeptical. Acting purposely scummy (and soft-claiming useless information unprompted

is

scummy) generally sucks as a town gambit, since calling you out for it is a natural response from both scum and town. I also think you've done too little to analyze what reactions you got considering how long you've been playing this charade. If the amount of support surprised you, it probably wouldn't hurt to look into that.

But ok, it's an explanation that at least works in terms of motivation and there's not enough support for your wagon. Moving on.

[CrashTextDummie]

-BeautyAndTheBeast
-DLG
-Mac
-Nero Cain
-Bacde
-BabySpice

B&tB did.

Yes and no. B&tB did give a stance on massclaim when specifically asked by Nacho, but ignored it before that. Answering a direct question is not the kind of reaction I'm looking for.

However, having caught up with the intricacies of this game, I don't consider them a top priority anymore. Their posting is solid compared to some others.

You are misinterpretting Fuzzy's 'agreement' he didn't support it at all he said 'if it happens' that is in no way an opinion on if he wants to or not he didn't actually voice what he prefers he was in fact the worst offender of your tell by far.

No, not really. While he didn't explicitly embrace massclaim, he implicitly approved of it. He acknowledged it and set terms under which he would be okay with it. I do find his ISO pretty unappealing (fluff:content ratio is off the charts) but I haven't seen anything outwardly scummy from him. Why do you read him as scum?

-------------

While we're on the subject of the list, I do have to take DLG off it since I missed that he actually commented, but his stance bothers me for non-tell related reasons. He states that early massclaim is functionally better for town than for scum, but it's kind of buried in his Nacho analysis and doesn't translate at all into a desire on his part to support massclaim in

this game

.

I also noted that he spends an inordinate amount of energy arguing with his town reads (most notably B&tB, AK to a lesser extent) which to me looks like a lack of interest in scumhunting. I thought his reasoning for the ArcAngel9 vote was shallow and the vote looked lazy in the context of his efforts.

Lastly, he is not the least bit pro-active in using his vote:

{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

[...]

So, anyway, I'd really like to see more votes on ArcAngel9 or Bulbazak. I really don't like what is coming across as Bulbazak white-knighting BeautyAndTheBeast.

Bulbazak - 2 (Om the Destroyer, fuzzybutternut)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)

Why isn't his vote on Bulbazark? This was shortly after Om/Destroyer launched their assault on Bulbazark and DLG did not contribute at all to the momentum of this wagon on a person he "would lynch instantly given the chance", electing to sit uselessly by himself on AA instead.

[CrashTextDummie]

While Nacho isn't my strongest townread anymore, he is still a townread and therefore a bad wagon.

I am having legitimate trouble understanding what Red Ryu's deal is and I'm beginning to feel like it's a language or experience issue. I don't like the current make-up of his wagon and think he's looking like an easy lynch at this point. Mac's vote in particular was opportunistic as hell.

Slandaar joins AA and Bulbazak in the town pile.

vote: DLG

Mac, Bacde, Nero Cain would be acceptable wagons as well.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hey, moron, go look at my early posted reads around that time and look at who was actively involved in which side of the mass claim arguments.

I realize that abrasiveness is en vogue these days, but I personally do not appreciate being called a moron.

Does this include scum being the initial voice for the idea? Because if so, look at Aunt Jemina in YCBA Probably at least one other scum on that team also supported the idea.

No, it doesn't. I have never seen scum support massclaim when I've suggested it as town. We've already established that scum are capable of suggesting massclaim.

[Red Ryu]

Going to bed but,

Why do you refuse to consider that Oversoul is scum?

Your an idiot if you think I never thought this.

[Red Ryu]

You're*

lol English.

[Syryana]

Hokay, catching up now.

[Slandaar]

Didn't you say that yesterday?

[Baby Spice]

There's a lit to catch up on. Lots of bloody walls.

For example, CTD pointing out DLG's opinion slide. Sliding in a comment that looks like you have an opinion on something but doesn't really express one. Both burried in walls.
DLG be scummy.

[Slandaar]

Hi Baby Spice

Read on me please with explanation.

[Syryana]

I did, but things got in the way. On page 31 now.

[Baby Spice]

Hi Baby Spice

Read on me please with explanation.

None yet.

I still have a ten page block in the middle to catch up on and you really haven't stood out to me yet.

So obv Jester. ;p


Null.

[Syryana]

Catchup:
[spoiler='My perilous notes"]Scumread hating my townreads lol #670
And HD's readlist sucks, why is OS/Cephrir town #675
Need to press Bacde, make some ketchup #677
OS and AA are now confirmed buddies #682, she gets mad at DLG calling her scum but does not OMGUS, this is not town AA
Bacde is destroying my townread on him #686, #687
Fenix's tearing apart of Bulba's case sucks #691
B&B tunneling on indies #699
I read this three times, still no idea what AA is trying to say in #710, but the weak defense of B&B makes me uneasy
Slandaar probtown #711
Bulba's case is interesting #714
Om's rebuttal is interesting #721
Why does the kitty have OS as obvtown #727
Fuzzy sheeping, don't know what to make of it #734
Utility lynch B&B and OS? What the absolute fuck? #735
Baby Spice got to Page 19 and think HD is just now posting? Either you're confusing HD with Om or you think Om's posts are good, either way, that's awful. Actually, that whole post is pretty awful #749
Desp's #750 raises me hairs
Bulb is misrepping the fuck out of HD #752
DLG's reads list makes me warm and fuzzy inside #764
Desp's analysis of DLG does not #765
CTD's massclaim analysis is interesting, but it also would have been more useful like 20 pages ago #768
Hay another of my scumreads said my reads suck! MISSIONACCOMMPLISHED #797
Mala's 799 is interesting. Curious why Nacho is scum to you, Slandaar's wishy washiness makes me think he's town
Desp #813 is the first thing he's said I agree with
Oversoul admits he was lying as a reaction test, we need to lynch this #820
OS, why are you taking Nero's trolling literally #831
Nacho is back <3 #842
Bacde confbiasing the fuck out of Nacho now #855
Yes Desp, Eddie is anti-town. Stop buddying bulba. #886
Mala gets piiiiiiiiissed #900
Why didn't you believe me when I told you Ceph was scum Bacde #910
Burden of proficiency if I've ever seen it #911
Baby Spice is pinging my scumdar hard #919
Red's points in #927 are blatantly retarded
Misreps of Nacho, brought to you by Red Ryu #930
#933 misreps R us
Bacde's #937 is even more awful
Tired and don't care anymore[/spoiler]
@Mala 799, she's in the scum pile, I missed her name when I was making the table. Also I'm reading her posts, that part of the notes was me being irritated and snarky.

Updated table (still in no particular order):

Town	Null leaning Town	Null (1)	Null (2)	Null Leaning Scum	Scum
Nacho B&B Nero DLG AK Slandaar	CTD Fuzzy	Thor Seanald ActionDan Rondar	Om the Destroyer Bulb	Mac Bacde Baby Spice	Eddie Fenix AA9 Red Ryu Cephrir Desperado Oversoul

1)Null because inactivity
2)Null because can't decide what to do with these people

Brief description of scum reads:
OS has admitted he lied about his role and I don't buy his reaction test BS. May reevaluate depending on what he got from said test (if it's damn convincing). Red's misrepping the hell out of Nacho and charging really hard to get Nacho lynched on said misreps. AA9 is not playing her town game (I'll elaborate more on this later). I don't think I've seen a single post from Eddie I liked. Ceph scumread came from repeating points already made in #398, his #639 was blatantly awful, calling CTD town from CTD's self meta in #665.

Mac hasn't done anything to change my read one way or another since my last update. Bacde got slapped down here because his content is shit and he actually used Burden of Proficiency against Nacho. Fuck that. Baby Spice got down here also because content is shit and I hated #919.

CTD got moved to leaning town because I liked his massclaim analysis (though it would have done better about 10 pages ago) and I liked his more recent posts. Fuzzy got downgraded to lean because I didn't like his ridiculously blatant sheeping.

Om and Bulb are in this special category I made just for them. The tunneling they've done on each other for like 20 pages now makes me feel like they're both town, but both have individual little things I don't like on them, enough that I don't know what to do with them. They are most likely both the same alignment, however.

I'm not explaining my town reads right now. I'm dead. Good night.

Oh, and VOTE: Red Ryu

[Slandaar]

Syry why are you copying the style of Mr Obvious's reads list?

[Syryana]

Because I liked it. Why?

[Nero Cain]

Utility lynch B&B and OS? What the absolute fuck? #735

Do you even know what a utility lynch is?

[Red Ryu]

Scum may have an information advantage but they do not know everything town or potentially other factions have. that fact remains Nacho did not have this knowledge at the time that OS was lying so his reactions are still legitimate tells.

Depends on the flavor of scum. A SK could safely say that there were at least 2 killing roles in the game. Mafia could too. Mafia would immediately know whether there were multiple Mafia factions are not. If there was one, they could easily extrapolate that there is likely another killing role in the game based on its size, the amount of people it took to review the game, and what little knowledge they possess of the setup, including PR density. If there are multiple mafia factions, he would know it immediately and be able to use that information. Having this information does not automatically prove the Informed Townie claim.

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

However, each night gives us more information on the bigger picture. After 2-3 nights, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to piece together how many killing factions/roles are out there.

Nacho did infact say he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

Of course he didn't believe the role was legit given the information given. Anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion. It proves nothing.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell, when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

Given the timing of the claim, the complete uselessness of the information given, and Oversoul's history of backpedaling in the game, I'd say that the claim was a very strong scumtell. Again, anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion, meaning it would be meaningless information to hand an Informed Townie. Mastin would be playing a cruel trick on Oversoul if that was the case, and seeing as how this game was reviewed by a variety of people, it makes it even more unlikely.

Why do you refuse to consider that Oversoul is scum?

Mafia would not figure that info out on D1 off their size when they lack to knowledge of what town has.

We could try and piece it by D3, but we still could lack info on how kills work, what if they are alternating with opposite scum teams, one gets it on odd night, the other on even nights? What if some of these were town one shots? We don't know this til claims and flip roll around. Off how many people die is not a surefire tell.

But he tried to push OS on this as being scummy, there was no reason to consider him scummy for that action,

he deliberately refused to think OS was town doing that lying or telling the truth.

I am no throwing out the possibility OS is scum, I am pretty dang certain Nacho is scum right now.

[Cephrir]

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

Nacho did infact say he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell, when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

The bolded is my biggest issue, town does not do that so easily. Especially just because he claimed informed townie, otherwise he would have unvoted or at least said it was a possibility. The fact is he never did this.

Nacho thought OS was lying about his role because the role was ridiculous. He turned out to be right. That's not scummy, and it wouldn't be even if he was wrong because the role as claimed was indeed stupid. It seems like your biggest issue is how certain Nacho was. There are a number of other players around here who are way more certain of things than they have any right to be (for the most obvious example see B&B with "Cephrir is 100% scum" but there are plenty of others). Why are you only going after Nacho? (Hint: it's because he's the one with a wagon on him)

By the way, scum are more interested in directing the cop specifically because they just want someone other than themselves to be investigated.

[mastin2]

There are mod-edited votecounts on page 38 and page 39.

Spoiler: Post 925

Nachomamma8 - 5 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, BeautyAndTheBeast)

Red Ryu - 4 (Oversoul, Thor665, Baby Spice, Mac)

Bulbazak - 3 (Om the Destroyer, fuzzybutternut, EddieFenix)
Oversoul - 2 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Cephrir)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (Bulbazak)
DLG - 1 (Desperado)

Not Voting - 6 (Syryana, Slandaar, Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, ArcAngel9)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

Spoiler: Post 950

Nachomamma8 - 5 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, BeautyAndTheBeast)

Red Ryu - 5 (Oversoul, Thor665, Baby Spice, Mac, Bulbazak)

Bulbazak - 3 (Om the Destroyer, fuzzybutternut, EddieFenix)
Oversoul - 2 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Cephrir)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)
DLG - 1 (Desperado)

Not Voting - 6 (Syryana, Slandaar, Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, ArcAngel9)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).