Micro 188: Matrix6 (Game Over)

[borkjerfkin]

/konfirm

[borkjerfkin]

k that's 6

weak town on ferret for making the spelling change on confirm a phenomenon rather than just a one-off; gutwise it makes it look like he's comfortable in the game

null afterword because it's identifiable as a pattern after that.

[borkjerfkin]

yes

[borkjerfkin]

what's got you all in a tizzy then?

[borkjerfkin]

No. Answer my question.

[borkjerfkin]

Because you're very much not impressing me with your "I'm too cool for this shit" routine

[borkjerfkin]

nothing. Its my day 1 shitick to joke about policy lynches on day 1.

Then you're not reacting to the misspelled confirms or what's going on? I'm confused as to why you made that joke when you did -- is it just the playerlist or are you reacting to the gamestate?

[borkjerfkin]

That's a shitty vote Mara

Are you intentionally being vague on whether that's RVS or reacting to my conversation with Nero?

p-edit: explain

[borkjerfkin]

I don't really care. Its not like your super anxiousness to start the game is filling me with confidence.

Quoting this for clarification -- this is what I want you to explain.

Because that seems like a really odd thing to say.

[borkjerfkin]

It was supposed to be an RVS vote, but Nero engaging with you the way he is is kiiinda ruining it. I feel like a third party in this little battle between you and him and I don't know where he's going with all of this.

I buy that -- your #24 corroborates that.

I don't know where he's going either.

[borkjerfkin]

jesus shit. give me a chance to reply. I vaugly remember you rushing people to give you responses in our scum games so I'll have to read back. But for the record its a joke about the playerbase. Why you think I'd be concerned with the game state this early is beyond me.

I wanted to see what your angle was. Don't get all pissy because your first post was interpretable in more than one way. Also please do as much meta on me as you're willing; If you're feeling rushed then fucking take your time -- why the shit woukd I mind that? That is a fucking off the wall accusation and I would love you to both A) back that up and B) somehow leverage that into whatever the hell point you're trying to make here.

here's some recent town games (I have not rolled a lot of town lately and some of these are from months ago):
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=26831
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24809
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23619
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23927


scum games:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25295
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26483
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=28626
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25367

and then my 12 was an obvious joke but you were taking it seriously.

I very much did not see it as an obvious joke. Hence the asking. If it was a joke then I don't have anything else to say about it.

So you seem pretty anxious to me which I think is a maybe scumtell.

You should think better.

[borkjerfkin]

Ferret what caused you to come out on my side in #17 then?

[borkjerfkin]

Hey Borky.. What was with the meta defense right away? You got defensive right off the bat.

He wanted to meta me, so I gave him some games from which to meta me.

[borkjerfkin]

I wasn't sure what the fuck nero was talking about so i had some funs.

That's fine, but why did you inject yourself into the conversation when it had nothing to do with you?

[borkjerfkin]

Well so far my assessment is two townies going at each others throats dominating the thread and a couple people egging them on. Honestly the most suspicious thing I see is macmollie who's confirmed and voted and said NOTHING else. I would love to hear an explanation even if it was a bad one like "because band wagon"

How are you so sure Sugar Cain and I are both town already?

[borkjerfkin]

Why are you two so confident that the other is?

Is scum? I'm not confident in that at all; I'm not voting him.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm around.

"oh look, Mac hasn't been posting in any games recently and is clearly away. FoS Mac!"

Consider yourself a scumread.

Don't know why you're injecting meaning into #55 but not the others who were voting macmollie for lack of content. What's the deal?

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah I don't have anything good to say about the commentator feel of #64. Sakura what point are you trying to make over all the IIoA?

and the last sentence there "unvotes and disappears again" is pure spin.

[borkjerfkin]

link to Sakura town meta plox

Not reading ferret either way yet Mara. If it were a more straight laced player then maybe, but ferret is not that.

[borkjerfkin]

how do you feel about borky mollie

you're usually willing to talk to me

[borkjerfkin]

Sure -- they just had a specific game in mind and I wanted to know which.

[borkjerfkin]

K.

What's the overarching theme you're trying to demonstrate in post #64 about macmollie? I don't get why you made that post.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, Mara, I have: Micro 163; I was an SK, he was town, and it gave me a pretty good window into his personality, and I think it's in the realm of possibility that he'd come out of the gate like he did.

Compare that to Micro 180 where ferret was scum and he tried to look like he didn't know how mafia worked.

p-edit: Mara is sugar, she's just not consistent

[borkjerfkin]

I could see why you might wanna forget about 180

[borkjerfkin]

I was hoping she would, it would have confirmed it more for me.

I see town phrasing this like he did; he's not trying to use it as a hedge. I like him in general.

[borkjerfkin]

Sakura (for her weird IIoA and reachy push on macmollie and ignoring my questions about it) or TSO for his just general inconsistency and what I feel is a misrep of #55.

p-edit: Mala I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[borkjerfkin]

@Mara: Ok that's fair and probably partially my fault for not parsing #64 very well initially.

I think TSO needs to be held accountable for what Sakura brings up in #64 as he sheeped macmollie's negative feelings on anorway but similarly ignored Sakura.

p-edit: ooh. Come at me!

[borkjerfkin]

Is this the game where I get to berate you for reading me wrong for once instead of the opposite?

Engage me, mollie. I'm right here.

p-edit: what the fuck is a "bring it on" tell?

[borkjerfkin]

I am at a loss, so I'm going to let this simmer and if you want to actually attempt to interact with me, then we'll do that.

Otherwise I don't see this as a genuine read.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh my bad, I missed this when i was reading since you asked for that game, I wasn't trying to make any point, was just trying to bring them to be a little bit more active into the game, which is weird coz you aren't questioning ferretlover's post that only says "Speak up", the unvotes and dissapears again is void now, but I still question why they read anorway as scum and me as town when both of us technically voted him/her for the exact same reason.

Yeah, I get what #64 meant now; I retract my scumread on you.

[borkjerfkin]

Leaning town on Mala: her defense of macmollie lacks scum-motivation.

@Mala: re: reading me: meta the games I linked. Especially micro 151.

[borkjerfkin]

What I'm saying is that you did the same thing that macmollie did -- indicted anorway for #58 but ignored sakura for #57. Sakura was pointing out that macmollie did this, but I was pointing out that you did it too.

[borkjerfkin]

It was mostly me pushing that townread -- I'll quote what I said about it:

I was hoping she would, it would have confirmed it more for me.

I see town phrasing this like he did; he's not trying to use it as a hedge. I like him in general.

I'm rereading him now and I think I fucked up. That post is almost entirely IIoA, and gives no reason at the end for why Sakura should really be considered scum for any of that. These points only kinda work if lucky thinks macmollie is town and sakura is trying to roll this RVS wagon into a mislynch and I see zero evidence he thinks this, and now that I understand #64 better it's pretty obvious that she's making a legitimate point in it.

And although the way he said the last point (what I quoted) is something I think town might say (town enjoy being right about stuff and it was a hedging opportunity that he did not take), the actual thing he wants to be right about isn't something that indicates scum.

Lucky also was incredibly quick to call both me and Sugar Cain town for pretty much nothing.

Also macmollie has already tried to tie me to him for a dumb as shit reason (see #103), which indicates a possible buddy there if the flip goes that way -- and trying to get me lynched instead of him would mean she would no longer have to pursue that connection at all since I'd flip town. If lucky were to flip town then macmollie is just on fucking drugs.

1080 mctwist

VOTE: Lucky

macmollie should have no problem with this is we're "buddies".

[borkjerfkin]

Mmhmm

[borkjerfkin]

Mala you're going to have to explain that macmollie townread, although I have little doubt you believe it to be so.

[borkjerfkin]

Tone is all wrong in #127; inquisitive demeanor followed by a vote doesn't make any sense to me, and if you're scumreading Sakura this makes even less sense.

[borkjerfkin]

TSO: Leaning scum, because of his gross twisting of words to make an argument.

This does need to be aired out.

@TSO --

1) your interpretation of #55 in your #62 was really spinny and gave me bad vibes. Why are you 1) so sure that lucky had investigated Mac's activity on the site and 2) ignoring the fact that the slot is a hydra?

[borkjerfkin]

@bork In my previous games whenever I'm indecisive I get accused of being scum so I was trying to be more sure of myself, I guess that was the wrong way to do it. I'll lower my stance on mac to FoS again.

This has nothing to do with how decisive you're being.

You're asking for clarification but also voting as if you've already made up your mind that it's scummy without actually saying it's scummy.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, but it was also a way to not putz around with RVS which I've grown to hate.

[borkjerfkin]

@145 -- ok, thank christ. We'll talk sakura/TSO/anorway/lucky tonight. I like Mala though -- do you agree?

I realise that you are just a white boy who can't dance

lol. I'll meet you and Jiffy sometime and show you just how right you are.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

Borky, do you not think macmollie is town? I have a strong as fuck town read on them also.

#145 is candid-town-mollie through and through, but before that I was not reading them as town, no.

[borkjerfkin]

mollie back off on Sakura for a bit and let her finish the thing with Mac because #64 was a relevant thing to bring up.

[borkjerfkin]

#164 feels genuine to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Why are you all playing anti-town as fuck? Is this a bastard game and we're the only town?

MOAR FERRET VOTES NEEDED!!!

What are you frustrated about? Ferret's not posting and other shit is going on; be a part of it.

[borkjerfkin]

he's definitely been plenty present on site today.

[borkjerfkin]

he's definitely been plenty present on site today.

and that doesn't ring any alarm bells for you?

No, it's definitely a strike against him.

[borkjerfkin]

Well, let's be the bloc I think we are.

VOTE: ferret

[borkjerfkin]

I would like a chance to sort mala out before vote anybody can you guys let me do that

@ sakura

I prompted him on gchat so when he wakes up he will see it. I don't know if he has to work in the morning or not so not sure when that will be and sometimes he doesn't always get a chance to get to his computer.

why aren't looking at anything else that is going on in the game?

I want to get ferret engaged, and a lot of the more active people I think are probably town.

[borkjerfkin]

Unless Mollie is trying to mindf* me and possibly Mara she's town. Scum Mollie comes off very passive to me as Town Mollie wants to work together and is somewhat active and not aggressive. The way she went after you with the "tell" is a huge town-Mollie characteristic.

I think the "this is my thoughts about everything" (145) post she made is what makes her town. I've never played with mollie-scum, but 145 was right out of the town-mollie handbook.

I need a bit more from you on Sakura -- it looks like you're using the fact that Mara does not share your opinion as an excuse not to explain your own read on Sakura; you are not in a hydra with her this game so you don't get to do that. I would like to hear it from you irrespective of what Mara thinks. (I'm assuming 195 refers to a different game).

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

This postulating about what ferret is/is not trying to accomplish with lurking is not really helpful. Let him come back and explain himself and then you can figure out whether or not he's telling the truth, or let him be replaced.

TSO is reading town to me now (I make 'I am lost' posts when I am town and lost but would probably not do this as scum) I think Lucky is too again (#232 is fucking right even if ferret does flip scum and whatever post made me unvote him looked town too)

[borkjerfkin]

Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:17 pm

Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:01 pm

those are the times between your last two posts.

So do you have anything else to say? If you've been here all along then you've been following the game, yeah?

[borkjerfkin]

saying "

sugar cain isn't scum" should be synonymous with "

sugar cain is town"

p-edit: Dude, chill.

p-p-edit: huge misrep from Sakura

[borkjerfkin]

No intent from me yet. Get more involved.

[borkjerfkin]

it is bs

what I am trying to tell you is that he does this shit all of the time

borky can verify

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about ferret. It's feasible he's just derping around, but at the same time that phone posting excuse is fucking cringeworthy. I'm not ready to lynch anyone today yet.

[borkjerfkin]

I was unsure earlier, though I think [Mala] trying to work with me to gauge our alignment is town beyond town.

Really? how is this even remotely guaranteed to be town motivated? I can easily see scum doing this as a delaying tactic or just something that's easy to say without actually having a concrete definition of what that even entails. I'm not saying that's definitely what's going on here, but to say something as pedestrian as this is a towntell really makes me scratch my head.

[borkjerfkin]

And what is it that you hope to accomplish in the next week?

I want to not be in nowheresville leadwise if ferret flips town

[borkjerfkin]

And what is it that you hope to accomplish in the next week?

I want to not be in nowheresville leadwise if ferret flips town

[borkjerfkin]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[borkjerfkin]

Am I even at L-1?

It seems like you knew that perfectly well.

Okay so how was I posting today.

I don't think that I posted today before.

Please tell me why I was brought to L-1

I'm not online 24/7

More than a few votes happened/unhappened in the interim between those two posts. That was a shady reason to hammer when you did. I'll wait until I see a flip before I have any more to say about it.

[borkjerfkin]

Like I said, there were over 60 posts between those two, which contained votes/unvotes on him.

It's a plausible (albeit lazy) question to ask, and more importantly, it's not a reason to immediately hammer him because there's no fucking scum motivation to ask that question, just lazy demoralized player motivation which is not exclusive to any one alignment.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork, Anor claimed intent to hammer. Hammer!!! Using context clues Ferret could have easily figured things out.

I agree, but anorway didn't use that argument.

[borkjerfkin]

This shit isn't really worth talking about until we see a flip, which will totally change the gamestate.

[borkjerfkin]

A PM that this had opened would've been nice.

That's for hammering without waiting for a claim. Bad, bad habit. Don't do it again.)

Already seems like you're just voting him to 'punish' him for quickhammering more than you're worried about whether or not it was scum motivated.

[borkjerfkin]

I can pretty much guarantee we're going to get scum between [Mala, anorway] just due to how that wagon went down.

[borkjerfkin]

yeah VOTE: kittens

[borkjerfkin]

@bork when you say "how that wagon went down" what is your view of what happened?

There are two things that were pretty bad with the ferret wagon:
1) the L-1 vote from Mala (where ferret was essentially just lurking at that point) looks opportunistic
And
2) the quickhammer from anorway lynched town without a claim. The fact that this was a PR and the lynch could have been averted via his claim should not factor in here, just the fact that ferret flipped town.

Both of these are extremely suspicious with regard to 1) the actions themselves considering the gamestate at the time and 2) how they were explained afterword, and I really really doubt that both Mala and anorway are town and just made bad moves there; ergo I think there is at least one scum in there.

I'm voting kittens and not anorway pretty much because the attitude in #349 is all wrong, but yes, anorway looks bad right now too.

Already two votes before I've even posted. This is a bad sign of impatience

There's a pretty big difference between putting a vote down and quicklynching, which I am not advocating.

[borkjerfkin]

Mara, do you really think that Lucky would be this blatantly anti-town as scum?

What are you trying to accomplish here other than advertising your hydra dissonance? Work that shit out in private then post here. Also what are you talking about?

[borkjerfkin]

Being tentative to vote can sometimes be a scumtell. Obviously it was addressed to Mara but others are free to comment.

Eh, I don't agree; that's a playstyle tell first and foremost, and he's making his stance pretty clear even without the vote.

He's also leaning town for me anyway just because of his alarm at Mala's L-1 vote yesterday (#232)

@Sakura -- Anything else to say? What about anorway's explanation alongside his vote?

[borkjerfkin]

Bork so you're voting me because I think someone voting without waiting for a claim is scummy so I'm apparently punishing them. So you are basically voting me because I'm in a way trying to push a policy lynch (which I'm not).

This is what you said:

That's for hammering without waiting for a claim. Bad, bad habit. Don't do it again.

Nothing about his reasoning with the vote, nothing about the flip, nothing about the likelihood at all about the likelihood of this being scum motivated at all, just:

"You should not hammer without a claim" => vote.

That does not at all lend itself to any sort of reasoning as to why, in this particular circumstance, you believe anorway to be scum.

Bork how come you didn't bring up the fact SC didn't want any other conversation during Day 1. Nero was more convinced to cut day short.

Ok, consider it brought up: what do you have to say about it? They're a null read for me.

[borkjerfkin]

I REALLY need to talk to Klick.

Why do you REALLY need to talk to someone who hasn't been part of the game so far?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm glad you are rushing to his defense. How about you let him defend himself? Read Day 1 posts I made a few comments to him before I had to go to work.

Who are we talking about? Who am I defending? anorway? How?

I don't really have a huge read on them myself. Mollie thought Mara part was town and in a way I had a feeling Mara was slightly leaning town. So I believe there's a huge chance they are likely town.

K...I have trouble reconciling that with the following:

Bork how come you didn't bring up the fact SC didn't want any other conversation during Day 1. Nero was more convinced to cut day short.

As this implies you're trying to accuse them of something (or that you want me to do so).

To get his thoughts? Im no longer solo playing so i need to communicate to my partner
i want to see what he thinks of everything so far
dont think thats too much to ask

Ok; this is admittedly the first time I've ever seen such a replacement dynamic; you're entitled to do that.

[borkjerfkin]

youre chainsaw defending him i voted him and now youre attacking me for that vote rather then letting him speak for himself

Oh "chainsaw defense", why can't I quit you?

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense.

This isn't the first time I've had this accusation leveled at me, either. Thor tried 'bad example of chainsaw on unflipped player' with me when he was scum a long time ago. Worth noting that the person I 'defended' (aka attacked Thor for a questionable interaction with) in that case (Isa, if I recall) also flipped scum.

None of this precludes anorway defending himself, by the way.

i simply wanted to see your thoughts on that matter and where you stand

I don't find the fact that they tunneled on town all day to be really telling either way. Scum are very often more subtle than this, but playstyle differences make this pretty shaky ground to try and generalize here.

p-edit: @Sakura: Ok.

[borkjerfkin]

Mara you're probably not going to get me to vote Lucky, and you're certainly not going to with what you've provided so far.

[borkjerfkin]

Lucky there is zero reason for you to be on TSO and not anorway if you think anorway is scum. What gives?

I also don't really understand what you're trying to argue here leading up to your vote.

[borkjerfkin]

At the start of it, you weren't sure was Mala or Anor scum, but at the end you were sure it was Mala.

This isn't at all accurate; I'm not "sure" about anything. I don't remember a time when I wasn't leaning mala over anorway.

As for what I was doing for that 15 minutes, I have no fucking idea.

[borkjerfkin]

You are starting to see why I think he is suspicious yes?

I'm unsure as to the tone of TSO's post there, so I'll let him follow up on it.

[borkjerfkin]

anorway I seriously have zero idea about how you feel about any player sans Sakura right now.

Primer question: who is scum on the ferret wagon, in your opinion?

[borkjerfkin]

It's not that post alone I am working on bork. I am basing it on how his day 1 looked to me, and how he has started today.

K...elaborate?

[borkjerfkin]

Prod response; I'm dealing with a leaky basement and probably won't be around till Monday

[borkjerfkin]

There has been a distinctive lack of explanations for reads from pretty much everyone this game.

I'm going to go back and do a reread and see if I dredge up anything.

[borkjerfkin]

My second scum read agreeing with me is not comforting...

Shit like this is why I think lucky is town. Scum don't exhibit this kind of paranoia all that often.

[borkjerfkin]

409 is very easy to fake.

Literally *anything* can be faked -- that is why I actually bother to look for motivation to do so instead of just not bothering to look for towntells. Do you think he's faking this here?

[borkjerfkin]

If I had a gun to my head and had to pick two townreads right now, they'd be Lucky and Sakura.

I'm trying to find a third.

[borkjerfkin]

Does anyone have a compelling reason that they think kittens is town? I think her willingness to go after Lucky for the macmollie kill while conveniently ignoring that if her own slot is town then maybe scum killing the people dogging them the hardest isn't a terribly reliable tell is dishonest.

She's treating me like town (at least since that total bullshit chainsaw argument) by trying to make my reasoning look flawed rather than look scummy, and seems content to try and piss in my town pool without actually offering reasoning as to why I'm wrong.

Sugar Cain is doing similar things, consider the whole "I guess Mala's being weird but whatever you should vote Lucky for ??".

Mutley is on his way to becoming town.

p-edit: @Lucky: Partially. It's objectively easier overall to find town than to find scum, but it doesn't always work like that.

[borkjerfkin]

Does anyone have a compelling reason that they think kittens is town? I think her willingness to go after Lucky for the macmollie kill while conveniently ignoring that if her own slot is town then maybe scum killing the people dogging them the hardest isn't a terribly reliable tell is dishonest.

Wow I constructed this sentence like ass; I'll clarify.

Basically she is saying "Macmollie kill possibly leans toward Lucky killing macmollie to take pressure off Lucky"

But if kittens is town, then she should pretty acutely realize that "kittens killed macmollie to take pressure off kittens" is not only WIFOM, but it's incorrect in this particular case. Pushing that point is really odd for her slot to do.

[borkjerfkin]

Sakura I need reads from you.

[borkjerfkin]

Then you think kittens is town?

[borkjerfkin]

Seriously, take a stand on something; what is your reasoning? why am I wrong?

Oh and explain what changed since #371

[borkjerfkin]

Yes, because she's fence sitting with that response.

Why is kittens pushing me with no momentum?

Because it's easy? Because if we mislynch and she's on a different wagon she looks better? There are oodles of reasons for scum to push a non-viable wagon.

[borkjerfkin]

@Sakura -- I am sympathetic to RL stuff, but we are running out of time and we've really gotten nowhere this day so far.

@Lucky -- also consider who is a viable wagon right now if not you? Both Kittens and Sugar have expressed a desire for your lynch; I am the only one actively fighting it.

[borkjerfkin]

1) That means we've already gone 8 days with very little relevant discussion.
2) This weekend is an American holiday weekend, and I for one will be V/LA during it.

[borkjerfkin]

That is entirely contingent on the rest of the town actually playing ball and talking, but yeah, we do have a little time.

What's your sugar cain read? you think they're town if I recall?

[borkjerfkin]

I'm trying to figure sugar out; they're trying to push you without voting you, and they're also trying to make me doubt my kittens read without saying why kittens might be town (other than reasoning initially given in #281 which I found grossly unsubstantial.)

Not to mention kittens hasn't done fuckall to follow up on #281 and work with mara or whatever mala said she was going to do to try to gauge alignment; most recent I have from kittens on mara is "Mollie thought Mara part was town and in a way I had a feeling Mara was slightly leaning town. So I believe there's a huge chance they are likely town."

Look at the sheer number of qualifiers on that, and the fact there is nothing but vague generalities backing it up.

[borkjerfkin]

Borkie, I don't think Mala/Klick and anorway are likely partners considering Mala's attack on him. I do agree though that Mala's attack is weird but I don't see how it's scummy...

and besides, I like Lucky better. He's more likely to be the partner for both your scum picks I think

This is what I'm referring to as 'pushing you'

but you're right -- I actually think there is some hydra dissonance here. I don't think Nero thinks you're scum.

[borkjerfkin]

First off process of elimination. Secondly die if you are going to call NKA "WIFOM". I have actually caught scum in the past for it - hell I have caught scum offguard with it. I caught Klick-scum with it, but never followed it through. It's one of those things that scum don't realize that hurts them because they are trying to eliminate suspicion off of them.

I thought about this more and I think your POV makes sense (or rather, my previous argument about it was flawed). But tell me more about who you are PoEing? I haven't heard much about your townreads.

My gut has already been pinging towards Lucky. He's seems overcautious. Especially not wanting people to vote in Day 2. I already brought this up we aren't in LyLo and votes bring discussion.

This simply isn't substantial enough for me. He's one of the few people attempting to move the game forward AND I feel he's been towntelling. I think the "omg you're voting too quickly" is not at ALL a scumtell and I really want to know why you feel otherwise.

[borkjerfkin]

By this, anorway is the total opposite as he has just been lurking, or dissapeared again and seems to only come out when his name is mentioned, don't you agree?

Nobody outside of Lucky, myself, and (hell I'll give mutley a prop for coming in with guns blazing) have been terribly proactive on D2.

No one is doggedly pursuing scumreads or applying pressure; they're just talking in vague generalities and talking of PoE without putting anything behind their townreads.

Basically no one is looking to be

listened to.

That includes you; you've promised some stuff and have delivered very little.

[borkjerfkin]

I doubt that she would have brought Klick into the game if she was occupying a scumslot. She likely needed someone to talk to, and bounce ideas off of.

This isn't a bad point, although it is something it would never occur to me to do as either alignment.

I'm willing to lynch anorway at this point -- KK is going nowhere, and as I said, I doubt both the L-1 AND the hammer on ferret were both from town.

VOTE: anorway

I'm also not at all satisfied with Sakura #485, which is just a combo of IIoA, stuff I've already said, and that "I don't care what alignment anorway is" thing which is, yes, taken out of context.

Right this game is slow. Bork is becoming more town to me but I remember the biggest thing that drew me to scum bork is the fact he wasn't voting on the lynch yesterday, I normally find one scum is off it, that only leaves me and bork. However I get town vibes from him but will have to consider that another day for now as there is 2 scum still to get.

I like that you're thinking about VCA, but in a two scum game (and if you're town, in this particular game) this is a trap. The one on, one off thing is much better applied when you look at scum lynches in 3 scum games. Also the speed at which ferret was lynched makes this even less reliable than normal.

Also I'm town.

VCA works in 2 scum games when you look at competing wagons, and unfortunately ferret was lynched too quickly for a counterwagon to really coalesce.

[borkjerfkin]

Anor town is because Klick thinks him hammering Ferret wasn't scum-motivated. He also thinks other posts by Anor keeps genuine and due to this I'm starting to think I was too harsh on him so I backed off a bit.

Now is the time to give something substantial about this.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

Problem?

[borkjerfkin]

You don't see any issue at all with nothing happening all game day and then a wagon getting 3 votes in less than 4 hours not near deadline?

[borkjerfkin]

Lucky's still town

VOTE: Sakura

[borkjerfkin]

You're claiming to use PoE to limit your suspects although I've not seen explanations on why you're limiting to that group, and you've not ONCE tried to indict anorway for the quickhammer -- you even defended it or at least condoned it.

But all the sudden you see blood in the water despite never having any intention to pursue anorway all day until I/mutley did.

Why is that?

[borkjerfkin]

I think anorway scum, and i've been thinking anorway's scum all day, I don't see anything wrong with my vote?

Walk me through this part

[borkjerfkin]

You can't really blame anorway considering almost everyone wanted ferret dead, but i do agree he should have waited for a claim.

I mean here's what you said about the claim, so you don't think he's scummy for that.

p-edit: I didn't miss that, but I outright said I didn't think that being lurky/unhelpful was specific to him (#484) and you never followed up on it. Do you consider this a respectable standard of evidence? If not, I want to see where your PoE was coming from.

[borkjerfkin]

First line is weird that you would point that out...

You both reacted to my unvote, and you did it in a town way.

But the crux of the anorway unvote (even irrespective of the sakura intent or my vote on her) is that we're not hammering someone 1) who is due for a prod/replacement and 2) in the state we're in today with honestly very little interaction between plenty of people.

Do you want tomorrow to be a repeat of today if we hit town? I don't.

[borkjerfkin]

I had an intent to hammer on him, I don't see what's awkward of voting him if he's not at L-1 anymore. I hadn't voted him before because I didn't want mutley quickhammering, which isn't in danger on happening atm hence why i voted him.

I don't care about this and I don't see how it has anything to do with what I asked you.

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't miss that, but I outright said I didn't think that being lurky/unhelpful was specific to him (#484) and you never followed up on it. Do you consider this a respectable standard of evidence? If not, I want to see where your PoE was coming from.

I want you to talk about this. Why are your townreads town? What else is piquing your interest? Why is anorway a better lynch than kittens, who you said you maybe suspected but you did not want to jump on?

[borkjerfkin]

found nothing

What does this mean? Found nothing scummy? Found nothing worth remarking on at all?

[borkjerfkin]

did you honestly think i would hammer within 24 hours if he didnt even appear here...

Quite frankly, yes, I took this at face value. I'm barking up the wrong tree.

UNVOTE: .

[borkjerfkin]

That puts a lot of shit in perspective. I feel better about you again.

Honestly that was worth it even if your test can't pan out now -- but he's due for a prod anyway and you really wouldn't have been able to prove that any appearance he made was due to your beckoning him and not his prod.

p-edit: maybe; hard to say whether that would've stuck or not tomorrow.

[borkjerfkin]

I am assuming you agree that it wasn't bad in context btw

Yes, I do -- "I obviously don't care what alignment Anor, but I want him to learn that rushing the lynch through wasn't helpful at al"

to me, means

"teaching people proper play is a good thing, regardless of anorway's alignment this game".

Which I have no problem with; it was just phrased badly.

[borkjerfkin]

Sorry. Somewhat vla till sun, may be on phone

[borkjerfkin]

Well my reads are probably totally wrong.

[borkjerfkin]

The only pairing I think I can eliminate right now is mutley/lucky. Those slots have interacted in a pretty profound way with each other, which isn't typical of scumteams.

[borkjerfkin]

Day 1 | Final Vote Count
(5)

ferretlover

(

sugar cain

, Sakura Hana, Malakittens, Lucky2u,

anorway

)

(1) Malakittens (

macmollie

)
(3) Not Voting (T S O, borkjerfkin,

ferretlover

)

Day 2 | Vote Count 7
(4)

anorway

(Lucky2u, Mutleyddmc, Sakura Hana,

sugar cain

)

(1) Lucky2u (Klicking Kittens)
(1) Sakura Hana (

anorway

)

(1) Not Voting (borkjerfkin)

for reference.

[borkjerfkin]

PLEASE take your vote off, just use

FoS

or something.

if you're both town we can lose right now.

[borkjerfkin]

I dig that. I'm going to try to eliminate more pairs.

[borkjerfkin]

I have to reconsider bork who was a top town read to me. He was easily the most town read and somehow still alive. Mutley, everything about you screams scum but after playing with you in other games I know that means nothing because you play so damn reckless. TSO, the first occupant of your slot was just normal scummy so I still like your slot for scum. KK did not switch to the building anorway wagon yesterday and that reads town to me. Sakura... I have to ISO her because she was been flying below my radar since I stopped pursuing her day 1.

Mutley if you are town. No more vote gambits.

You are not touching Mutley. He is town.

Your reason for defending kittens sucks.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh boy... Killed the cop, now the doc and we're in LyLo. Town is doing great.

Hi scumslip

I'm kinda with you here; I just don't expect town to make this kind of post. I expect town to buckle down and get serious, not go "oh woe is us teh lyloz and it sure sucks our PRs are dead"

[borkjerfkin]

I'm going to quote precedence here because I don't want to be killed because you don't know my idiosyncrasies of how I play.

Slightly apples and oranges, but I don't think I can continue that argument in good conscience anyway, since it hinges my interpretation of the sarcastic edge in your tone in this game (which wasn't present in what you quoted).

I want to hear more about Kitten being town.

[borkjerfkin]

I hate gloating posts. sadly its lylo and I find gloating posts to be 50/50 scum, I'd happily speedlynch you if this was day 2 to see that. Need to be more sure here and find buddy possibilities.

lucky and KK could easily be buddies
lucky/sak too after that sak has flown under the radar since he stopped pursuing day 1. Thats very much something buddies do.

Lucky/sakura is a pairing I don't like (as much as lucky/kittens) because they'd have to have been on BOTH mislynches together.

486 is also something that's difficult to sell as a scum on scum interaction.

And if the pairing is Sakura/Kittens then honestly why the fuck am I still alive?

[borkjerfkin]

Sakura I need more reads from you.

[borkjerfkin]

Ugh can this not devolve into fluff again like when everyone got bored yesterday?

[borkjerfkin]

@Mala: Yes we can. Sorry for your loss.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork my comment on kittens earlier was saying the action was town, I'm not giving anyone a solid town read because frankly this is LyLo and I don't want to do that.

Why was the action town then, in and of itself?

[borkjerfkin]

The ONE person I had a confident townread on got lynched. -_-

I've been lurking in a lot of games lately, trying to pick it up. Right now, I personally think Mutley is scum, but I'm not sure of who the second one is. Lucky is a possibility.

- Klick

I'm really just asking for a modicum of transparency behind your collective thought process, which has been decidedly lacking all game. All reads given from you have been incredibly overly-simplistic in nature or outright unexplained. Your pushes have also been weak, and I can't think of a single reason to call you town right now.

If you're town, you really, really need to fix this.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't really know what to do right now other than hipfire, and I'd rather it not come to that.

Two of you are town. Show me.

[borkjerfkin]

Sakura's frustration reads genuine.

If I had to vote now it would be one of Lucky/KK;

Pairings I still don't like (and I need to devote more time to looking at more relationships between the four players)
Lucky/mutley
Lucky/Sakura

so kittens is probably a better first lynch than lucky.

p-edit: Yeah I'm not ruling that pairing out either.

[borkjerfkin]

It would mean that they were cross bussing D1, which I really don't see a lot in 9p games.

[borkjerfkin]

The questions imposed to you right now are: "Do you actually plan to listen to anything said?" & "If anything we will say will it change your mind at all?"

Just seems like this is one of those fence sitting comments that realistically never happen.

I mean do you want to keep throwing bullshit underhanded attacks at me (like that anorway chainsaw) or do you actually want to engage me on something relevant and current so I can react to it? Why the hell

wouldn't

I care about something you had to say if it were

substantial?

Are you trying to call me scum? You are not drawing any conclusions, just throwing scenarios around without talking about the likelihood of any of them being true. That is not interesting or useful AND it's a thing scum do to try to keep town from figuring out exactly what possibilities they should be ruling out.

And I have to ignore your self-meta; if you're so aware of what you'd normally do as scum then it's not hard to deliberately NOT do it as scum. Other than that the act of attempting to self-meta is null and should be ignored; I've certainly seen town do it.

Give me a read list and explain the list, concisely, in one post. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Also I'm really really obvtown and you're ignoring that. You have not really commented on my alignment all game. Why?

[borkjerfkin]

I try not to bus right before a scum-win if I can avoid it, but I will to get cred.

You basically just described the whole philosophy behind bussing in general; nobody actively

wants

to bus, and anyone who

is

bussing is doing it for cred...so I don't see where you're going here.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not ignoring it.. I been calling you town since Day 2, but I'm certainly allowed to question my town reads right or is that something that's unorthodox to do also? Apparently I never called you town on the thread just like I never called SC town either on the thread because you both were town in my mind and nothing was changing from that.

As I said, I've not SEEN you comment on my alignment: how am I to know you're doing it in your QT if you never tell anyone? You think I should not take issue with the fact that you're posting stuff in the QT and posting very little of it in the thread? And I don't appreciate your trying to spin that as my getting on you for questioning a read; do you think I mind someone questioning reads if they can give

reasons

for things?

If someone is set on a read there's VERY little someone can do to change their mind.

Have you seen how many times I've gone back and forth on people this day alone? I'm really, really torn right now; you're the only read that I'm even close to confident on, and that read happens to be a scum read.

Sakura is gaining ground as my "do not touch this town" read.

Actually; you can ignore it all you want, but it's something that can be proven as a fact rather than a false fact. I'm AWARE of a lot of things I do as scum and what I don't do as scum. There's ONE clear thing I won't do as scum if I can avoid it and I tend to do it a lot as town. I try not to mix my meta if I can avoid it. I don't fake drop town tells either.

Noted, but as I have only your word to take from that right now, can you give me meta that backs that up?

P-edit: anorway isn't terribly relevant anymore.

[borkjerfkin]

I could pretty much be looking at a possible mutley/Lucky team.

D1 interactions make this unlikely, IMO.

[borkjerfkin]

I want to see where Sakura's line of questioning goes before I have anything else to say.

[borkjerfkin]

I am going to address the question asked to me right before I left first by bork. "Why was that action in and of itself town?". Because in the situation, anorway was an easy wagon and wouldn't it be a scum action to jump on that? I like him staying off the wagon.

I am keeping my read on Mutley, his trolling doesn't buy him a free pass. He is flaunting the fact that he is scum in your face and your buying it.

Sakura's question: At what point not suspect KK? I don't suspect KK right now by PoE. I like Mutley and I like you or Bork for his partner. It's where I stand.

Hey lucky,

guess who else was off the anorway wagon? Why, then, does it get to be a vehicle for KK to jump to your strongest town read?

Oh, PoE?
Why is trolling a scumtell?
Why do you suspect Sakura?
Why do you suspect me other than "lol bork is still alive"? especially since I was your super town man before, and staying off the wagon is suuuuuuuuch a town thing to do (in fact, I jumped off it at L-1, which I put forward as objectively townier than how kittens handled it)

^ is where my vote would probably go right now cause of #680.

[borkjerfkin]

In fact

VOTE: Lucky

It's where my vote is going.

[borkjerfkin]

I love that you're town. It's not implausible that 3 town think lucky is scum and the other scum is bussing.

Still, something needs to happen because stagnation is breeding scum complacency.

[borkjerfkin]

Also you can't use this suspicion list thing to completely ignore people's play outside of it.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't care right now.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't care right now.

You should care because if you die tonight your opinion will be important for LyLo

Honestly, no. If I'm alive tomorrow, I'll share my opinion tomorrow.

If I'm not, please just analyze the motives and interactions with the scum flip, leave the NK analysis behind my reads out of it, and realize I was killed because I'm unlynchable.

[borkjerfkin]

Ok KK-sakura team is out.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

That's probably good for now.

[borkjerfkin]

It's not as scummy as it is totally worthless

[borkjerfkin]

I dont know what tft is either

[borkjerfkin]

Also I love that lucky is voting sakura and not mutley like he said he was gonna

Maybe I was too quick to dismiss lucky-mutley

[borkjerfkin]

Actually it just points to lucky scum, I don't want to worry about what it says about mutley.

[borkjerfkin]

pairings that should be objectively eliminated to everyone:

sakura-KK (did not hammer lucky) [bork, sakura, kk] potential hammer
bork-KK (did not hammer sakura or lucky) [lucky/sakura, bork, kk] potential hammer

mutley is in a position to win if he is scum, with the current vote combos

p-edit:

[borkjerfkin]

sakura is towntowntowntowntowntowntowntown

town

[borkjerfkin]

I gotta go do yardwork

Don't do anything I wouldn't do.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm with you. I wanna hear from mutley. I hope you're around a decent amount today, Sakura.

[borkjerfkin]

Now we hope it's not KK-mutley

[borkjerfkin]

It's not me.

I suppose at this point it's not terribly relevant if I wait to hammer or wait for KK.

[borkjerfkin]

If I were in a position as scum to win, I'd not bother to dick around with people. That's childish.

[borkjerfkin]

K I'm fairly sold on you and Sakura town.

Hammer or wait for KK?

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: lucky

Come what may

[borkjerfkin]

I ruled them out already. We got one!

[borkjerfkin]

Yep.

But I'm town.

[borkjerfkin]

Well let's see

I'm not gloating
Sakura' not gloating
mutley's not gloating

Soooo? KK was scum by themselves? Nope.

[borkjerfkin]

Are you like trying to make us feel bad for lynching correctly?

[borkjerfkin]

Honestly, no. If I'm alive tomorrow, I'll share my opinion tomorrow.

If I'm not, please just analyze the motives and interactions with the scum flip, leave the NK analysis behind my reads out of it, and realize I was killed because I'm unlynchable.

[borkjerfkin]

KK
mutley
Sakura

is my order of most to least likely scum.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork see anything I said didn't change your mind. You still think I'm scum when I'm not. It falls on death ears.

"The stuff I did say didn't change your mind" does not imply "Nothing I might say will change your mind"

[borkjerfkin]

It's only a problem if you're town

[borkjerfkin]

I need to rexamine exactly how hard KK tried to push lucky in the face of the anorway wagon and how that built overall.

I also need to rexamine how hard TSO tried to push Lucky on D1 (and vice versa).

Sakura I don't see being scum.

[borkjerfkin]

I need to rexamine exactly how hard KK tried to push lucky in the face of the anorway wagon and how that built overall.

I also need to rexamine how hard TSO tried to push Lucky on D1 (and vice versa).

Sakura I don't see being scum.

I think this will be the key to the game, and it goes back to what I said (which is why I almost didn't bother to give reads at all): don't blindly take my shit at face value when I die, go back and look at this stuff, reevaluate, reread, etc.

[borkjerfkin]

Meh I'm just gonna post since TSO did (sorry Chevre). GG all.

Mutley I think a you-sakura-me LyLO would've ended up in a town win and I'm surprised you were even considering it. Sakura's paranoia felt incredibly genuine, although you had me fooled at times with your candor as well. I also don't think you could have gotten me lynched, if that was your plan.

A Mutley-KK-me LyLO would've been more interesting, but I'm somewhat confident I'd have made the right choice after reexamining Day 1 play from TSO. Mara and I were talking right after I was killed and we were both favoring Mutley at beginning of D4.

Mala I'm sorry for doubting you -- I've never played with you in a game where we both lived this long, and I think you had some extenuating circumstances that made it hard to read you.

but MOSTLY: the anorway quickhammer on ferret torpedoed the shit out of this game -- a confirmed town in ferret would have helped TREMENDOUSLY -- and the fact that we were even almost able to come back from that I think is at least a small point of victory. We pretty much HAD to get rid of anorway before LyLO just because of that and that fact sucked by itself, but it was even more bad luck that ferret ended up being the cop too.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah I was really really sure you were town for a while Lucky, but more importantly I didn't feel comfortable sheeping either Sugar Cain or Kittens because I couldn't be sure of either of their towniness.

p-edit: yeah I don't really count hunterxhunter as a game I actively participated in because it was pretty much over after D2

[borkjerfkin]

Every one of us contributed to that loss at times in this game. Not fair to yourself for you to shoulder all the blame.

[borkjerfkin]

So still think my NKA is shit? Real question here.

I think that if I knew you were town that I probably would've been on board with what you were saying (probably in general, not just regarding NKA).

Therein lay the problem for me.

[borkjerfkin]

You weren't even giving me a chance though. I was under suspicion from Day 1 on everyone, but Mara's slot and then the flop by Lucky .

Yes, I realize that I got the read wrong. It happens. Communication is a two way street and a lot of what you were saying wasn't jibing well with me. I don't know what you want me to say.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not asking you to say anything really. I just feel everyone made mistakes this game (including me). Retrospect I should have replaced out in Night 1 rather than staying in and I thought about it; if Klick said no to me I would have replaced out. I felt bad for what I did to Mollie.

I wish I'd have realized my reads were shit earlier than I did, but I am somewhat glad I was able to turn it around D3.

I'm not sure what happened w/ you and Mollie though.

[borkjerfkin]

there was not