Which is better: Vanilla Setup or Non-Vanilla Setup?

[IH]

Eh, I like to mix it up. Sure weird and funky games are fun, but it's also just as fun to get down to basics with plain roles.

[petroleumjelly]

I voted non-vanilla. I think this post from Most Mountainousest Mafia explains why (only the first few paragraphs are relevant).

Even the

possibility

of a power role puts scum on their heels somewhat and forces them to do some maneuvering, but when it is evident that a set-up is Mountainous, they have no roles to worry about, but instead only the players in the game. And if the players in the game are paying any attention, they are probably going bonkers anyhow.

[Fiasco]

PJ, I agree that in vanilla it's extremely hard to get a good read on anyone, but I don't see this as a huge problem. Sometimes you just have to play the numbers and accept there's a lot of luck involved.

[petroleumjelly]

Then I may as well roll dice to decide who I'm going to vote for in a Mountainous Game. Chances of winning would go up, hunh?

[Fritzler]

That was kind of done. It was awesome.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3167

I strongly disagree with your definition of the word awesome.

if by awesome she means the worst thing to happen since fred phelps i agree with thok

[Fiasco]

Then I may as well roll dice to decide who I'm going to vote for in a Mountainous Game. Chances of winning would go up, hunh?

Maybe they'd go up slightly for the average player, I don't know (I'd guess not). If you're experienced, though, you can probably do somewhat better than random... just not

that

much better.

[Mr. Flay]

Vanilla is the original game setup; angels and sorcerers and everything else were added later. If the game was so unbalanced when you didn't have any investigative power, how did it ever become popular??

I agree that the examples here have not been good play by the towns, but that's partly related to how power role-reliant we are here on MafiaScum. Newbie games with both a cop AND a doc got lost more than they were won at first, but eventually the town got better, and then broke the setup. It just takes practice.

[MrBuddyLee]

The great thing about vanilla games is that if you're scum, no one can really beat you... you can only beat yourself. You control EVERYTHING because you're the only one with information, and the only way you're going down is if you make a mistake.

And if you're town, you're responsible for doing the investigating... by asking the right questions during daytime. You do the night protecting... by stating that if such-and-such dies, you know who scum is. You do the roleblocking... by constraining scum's actions with your words.

And you don't have to worry about some arbitrary jackass ruining the game with a dice roll night action. I'd say more often than not, assuming a balanced game, the side that plays better wins a mountainous.

[Fritzler]

Vanilla is the original game setup; angels and sorcerers and everything else were added later. If the game was so unbalanced when you didn't have any investigative power, how did it ever become popular??

I think because its easierto tell roles based on real life mafia. The game is much different, when you're looking at someone telling them you're not scum, than arguing over the internet. With out that draw, I think the online power roles make it a lot more fun, but are impractical for face to face mafia.

[IH]

The great thing about vanilla games is that if you're scum, no one can really beat you... you can only beat yourself. You control EVERYTHING because you're the only one with information, and the only way you're going down is if you make a mistake.

And if you're town, you're responsible for doing the investigating... by asking the right questions during daytime. You do the night protecting... by stating that if such-and-such dies, you know who scum is. You do the roleblocking... by constraining scum's actions with your words.

And you don't have to worry about some arbitrary jackass ruining the game with a dice roll night action. I'd say more often than not, assuming a balanced game, the side that plays better wins a mountainous.

Yeah. Unless town still won't believe you and lynches a townie because it's a "safe lynch" in lylo. Especially after you've nailed them. Nailed them hard.

= |

[Norinel]

Vanilla is the original game setup; angels and sorcerers and everything else were added later. If the game was so unbalanced when you didn't have any investigative power, how did it ever become popular??

Because the game started as a face-to-face game, which makes it much harder to prepare and censor your own words and allows the avenue of nonverbal communication/tells, which I gather can be at least as powerful as the ones that come across in writing. (Granted, having a perfect record of play goes somewhere to counter that)

To make a blanket statement on the thread subject: Vanilla and non-vanilla games are different, if not fundamentally different. They require different combinations of skills, and have a different flow and game elements. Many of the pro-vanilla arguments I've seen are about valuing the skills vanilla requires higher than the skills non-vanilla requires (Deduction is purer than cop investigations). Many of the pro-non-vanilla arguments I've seen are about the positive effects of the different flow (Vanilla games bog down too much) or different game elements (Having a role gives you discretionary power). Is there a way to get the best of both worlds?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Is there a way to get the best of both worlds?

Not including cops and other investigative roles and giving the town limited power.

[Fiasco]

Not including cops and other investigative roles and giving the town limited power.

Docs and blockers are investigative in a way; remove them, and what's left?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Not taking people literally?

(After all, a doctor is nothing compared to a cop when we're talking about investigative power.)

[Fiasco]

Docs and blockers usually don't give the town any information, but that's mostly because they usually don't have an impact at all. What you want is a role that has an impact without giving the town information.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Docs have a massive impact. They just don't need to actually be in the game to have that impact.

[Fiasco]

OK, a threatening doc (real or imaginary) could have an impact without generating information. But with no investigative roles, what's there for the doc to threaten to protect?

[petroleumjelly]

Players who threaten scum?

Sometimes scum are more afraid of the experienced player with the townie role than the newbie with the investigative role, Fiasco.

[Jack]

I think vanilla with a doc thrown in is cool. Just so the mafia can't pick off whoever they want to at night.

[Yosarian2]

OK, a threatening doc (real or imaginary) could have an impact without generating information. But with no investigative roles, what's there for the doc to threaten to protect?

Well, I think one reason the scum do so well in Vanillia games is that the kill gives them a huge amount of ccontrol over the day conversation by killing off people in thier way and by basically letting the scum choose which townies get into the endgame.

[Yosarian2]

OK, a threatening doc (real or imaginary) could have an impact without generating information. But with no investigative roles, what's there for the doc to threaten to protect?

Well, I think one reason the scum do so well in Vanillia games is that the kill gives them a huge amount of ccontrol over the day conversation by killing off people in thier way and by basically letting the scum choose which townies get into the endgame.

[mikeburnfire]

Eh, I like to mix it up. Sure weird and funky games are fun, but it's also just as fun to get down to basics with plain roles.

I agree. There are some great games that are vanilla (Like Open 7), but there are also good games with a variety of roles (Simon themed mini comes to mind). IH has the idea-- variety is the spice of life.

[petroleumjelly]

^ Agree with Mike. We should just be given "Awesome Awards" for Simon already. >.> For serious.