Mini 1484 - Pick Your Partners (Game Over)

[Does Bo Know]

Vote Guy_Named_Riggs

I don't see a rule against discussing our lists. If it's allowed, we should all post them.

Nah.

VOTE: Guy Named Riggs

[Does Bo Know]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Garantula

Discuss

[Does Bo Know]

Titus, your reason for your vote is 50% factually incorrect, and 50% assumptionally incorrect.

Why is TSO easier to type than DBK?

[Does Bo Know]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

Forgot the obligatory OMGUS/your-reason-for-thinking-I'm-suspicious-is-crap vote.

[Does Bo Know]

GNR says we should post lists.

Lol nope. This is entirely 100% incorrect and I'm surprised you haven't realized this yet.

You could have said the flip flop was solely to start conversation, but it wasn't; otherwise you would have said that.

Discuss

Lol that's exactly what I did.

Hence

50% factually incorrect
50% false assumption
100% awful suspicion

Hooray

[Does Bo Know]

GNR, you saying we should target wolves before we touch Mafia?

Because I am not down with that.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually yes I am.

As long as we lynch a Werewolf D1. If we lynch a townie, we might be doomed to chase Mafia forever.

[Does Bo Know]

Easy.

Scum can bullshit the lists. Some scum have day talk, right? Gives them an even better opportunity to coordinate their own lists, even with popcorn.

And townies that don't bullshit their lists could reveal likely Masons, so there's that.

Finally, we don't know exactly how IceGuy calculated partners.

Tell me why it would be useful for everyone to post lists. I'm open to it if it trumps everything I just said.

Gut doesn't feel right on 27. Titus uses scum twice in a sentence, not even referring to a faction. Not faction-indicative, but that seems totally fake. However, that's strictly gut now, considering Titus admitting her mistake in voting me.

Ummmm I actually don't have any better candidates to vote though. I think Mutley's town for certain reasons. And the Guy Named Riggs vote was just a wagon. Garantula vote was for boredom, I was hoping it would spark discussion (it worked!) and I don't really have suspicion of anyone else.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, post 27 if anything makes me think that Titus isn't a werewolf. Just read it again, that's pretty much all I'm getting from it.

(Where have I heard that before?)

UNVOTE: Titus

Gah I quit, no more voting right now.

[Does Bo Know]

Hey Haschel

Wyd there buddy

[Does Bo Know]

You caught yourself and unvoted quickly but basically, you are scum. Sorry man.

Lol k

You're really grasping for reasons to vote me aren't you?

[Does Bo Know]

@DBK, you also say that we should lynch a wolf D1 but that I'm not a wolf. Yet you vote me.

VOTE: DBK

I reached the "you're not wolf" conclusion in the same post I unvoted you.

Yeah, gut's usually bullshit around here, but I didn't find any reason to unvote you at that time. Then I thought you weren't wolf and told myself, "Well, I'm not voting her today." And from there I still can't decide what to do with my vote.

Sorry about that little comment, couldn't resist, it won't happen again.

@Haschel: Wyd means "what you doing?"

[Does Bo Know]

I was being facetious when I asked what you were doing.

I was wondering why you switched your vote to Garantula, but then I realized you hadn't posted yet. So I guess that's a random vote, oy?

[Does Bo Know]

Okay. So your vote on Garantula has a reason behind it, since it isn't random right?

My post 17 doesn't have a reason in it. Yet you agreed with the post.

I'm confused.

[Does Bo Know]

I told Titus I changed my vote because I was bored and it might've started conversation. Sorry if you thought there was reason.

But your reason does make sense. I'll hop on dat, nothing better to do.

VOTE: TheGarantula

@Mutley: Why am I scum?

PEdit: Egg, that would be one reason to reveal lists, sure. But in my opinion, it doesn't trump my reasons for not revealing lists. Sorry.

[Does Bo Know]

Apparently people thought I had the same reasoning for voting Garantula.

I would've said something if it were a more serious vote.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually yes I am.

As long as we lynch a Werewolf D1. If we lynch a townie, we might be doomed to chase Mafia forever.

but but how do u tell difference between wolf and mafia tho?

Also I need

Varsoon

to tell me his or her alignment for undisclosed reasons.

He got banned for doing stuff like that. I'm sure if he does it again it won't end well for him.

[Does Bo Know]

Also, to answer your previous question, Pjovek, there can be some wolf tells and some Mafia tells, depending on ways that they play. I don't really have any specific examples in mind, but as the game progresses, you'll most likely see players see "wolf" tells or "Mafia" tells in players because of their actions.

I would mind Varsoon's claim. You're convincing Varsoon to commit the very crime that got him banned in the first place. That is not okay.

However, I'm pretty sure that Pjovek and Varsoon aren't on the same scum/mason team. So that's something.

[Does Bo Know]

GNR, have you ever played Jungle Republic before?

[Does Bo Know]

67 is partially why I'm interested in whether GNR has played in Jungle Republic before. That's basically what this is, instead there are 2 Masons as opposed to 1 Seer.

My own point is, we can't spend the entire time targeting one faction without worrying about the other. Because the other faction will overwhelm us with night kills (wolves), or numbers (Mafia) alone. I want to get rid of a wolf today specifically, because then the wolf kill has a better chance of hitting Mafia tonight. And then we could work from there.

[Does Bo Know]

Jungle Republic is an Open Setup on MafiaScum.

Here's the Wiki page.

[Does Bo Know]

Okay.

Why am I scum?

[Does Bo Know]

Dunno are you scum?

Negatory.

Why do you think I'm scum?

[Does Bo Know]

Are you scum?

[Does Bo Know]

Normally

Are you scum this game?

[Does Bo Know]

Mutley, your play is unorthodox compared to others I've played with. Because of that, and I hate to sound like the bad guy, I feel like that's why no one wanted to partner with you, and that's why you're a VT to me.

[Does Bo Know]

Varsoon, why is Titus town to you?

[Does Bo Know]

Yeah Varsoon's town too.

[Does Bo Know]

Mainly because I don't think Varsoon would say what he just said if he were actually a partner with someone.

[Does Bo Know]

Cops?

[Does Bo Know]

Not really, Haschel.
WIFOM exists.

[Does Bo Know]

Granted, revealing lists from everyone is also incredibly WIFOMy. So I don't really see why that's a cheat code either.

[Does Bo Know]

Okay, Pjovek's reaction to Dolittle's case is frick with a brick on a stick. Terrible OMGUS, terrible assumption that lists will help town when the lists can and probably will be WIFOM'd to death, terrible terrible terrible. And...terrible.

UNVOTE: Garantula
VOTE: Pjovek

Pjovek, explain one scenario where scum will get "caught" in a lie.

[Does Bo Know]

It's a Scrubs thing, Titus.

But anyway, I PoE all the time. :p

[Does Bo Know]

Yeah Varsoon's town too.

Mainly because I don't think Varsoon would say what he just said if he were actually a partner with someone.

I have no idea why you'd assume this and it seems staged as fuck.

He assumes that VT's are "partnered" with each other, if I understood him correctly.

He's also assuming more than 2 people are "partnered" with him on the town side.

That makes me think he's VT, because as any other alignment, I feel like he wouldn't make or focus on the assumption that VT's are partners with each other.

[Does Bo Know]

Well, you don't have to buy it then.

I think 90 and 92 seem townie the way those posts flowed together. They both seem like he is genuinely VT and that he's trying to find out who's town with him.

(And for the record, read 90 again. He doesn't suspect that he's town, so he's not sure. He suspects other people are town with him. I'd normally let him defend himself, but that seemed obvious enough for me to point out for you.)

[Does Bo Know]

Eh, I guess you have some points.

I'm still not inclined to believe he's scum yet, though. What is your read on Varsoon ATM?

[Does Bo Know]

I quickly got caught up in my own "setup speculation" theory, and you talked me out of it. I actually dish out a lot of town reads like that early game, and then change my mind.

So now he's neutral, because he hasn't done much otherwise.

[Does Bo Know]

Varsoon, I honestly don't think VT's are partners. Unless I missed something in the setup.

[Does Bo Know]

I think if Pjovek is scum, Garantula's a good guess for a teammate, the way his vote on Varsoon looked, because Garantula FoS's Pjovek when there's a legitimate wagon there, yet votes Varsoon instead.

However, if Pjovek is town, I highly doubt Garantula-scum would go out of his way and vote Varsoon instead of Easy-Wagon-Pjovek.

I highly doubt we were determined as being one giant 6-person "team." I feel like that's way too much to calculate in an algorithm. But I don't know much about programming, so that could just be ignorance.

Whatever. So anyway, I see we're revealing parts of lists. That's fun.

I'm thinking the most likable and least likable players are VT's.

It might be like...wait...Pick Your Poison? Is it just a coincidence how similar those sound?

Anyway, people should check Pick Your Poison the wiki, at least how drafts work.

I'm thinking that the more people that choose a player/have "points" allocated to that player through the list, the less likely it is that they are in a QT together. Like everyone wanted to be partnered with Varsoon, so he's VT because the way picking works, his tendency to be a partner is divided among too many people. Does that make sense?

Now it doesn't sound as similar to Poison. But point is, the more people that pick a number in Poison, the less likely it is that you'll get the role you want.

And then if no one wanted to partner with Mutley due to unorthodox playstyle, maybe no one gave him a chance as a partner, so he's a VT by default.

I got really bored and starting thinking about this, sorry.

[Does Bo Know]

For the record, I voted Varsoon over Pjovek because I wanted to hear from both of them, but Pjovek already had a big wagon pressuring him. Voting Pjovek didn't seem as likely to produce results. I'm not looking to lynch either one yet.

Varsoon's not the type to avoid questions. You didn't really need to vote him.

[Does Bo Know]

Anyway, people should check Pick Your Poison the wiki, at least how drafts work.

I just checked that, and it was no help whatsoever.

It's not that important really. Mainly just my theory of how partners work, which isn't really

that

relevant considering we don't know how IceGuy calculated us, but relevant enough considering we were talking about how likable some players were that they were at the top of everyone's list.

[Does Bo Know]

Your very first question to Varsoon was in post 151.

Varsoon responded in post 152.

So my phrase "Varsoon's not the type to avoid questions" holds more weight than you think it does.

[Does Bo Know]

Oh shit I missed 131. How did I do that?

So yeah, I guess what I said was silly.

[Does Bo Know]

Egg posted like twice.

[Does Bo Know]

That makes me feel a lot better.

DBK, opinion on GNR?

Neutral read. I'm waiting to see how he hunts wolves. It's early, so I've given him a little leeway for now.

[Does Bo Know]

Because I fail to see the relevance of doing so.

Where is your line of questioning going?

I'm wondering this too. While HC has a point (I would've checked to see where he was on my list), I don't see where this point is going.

[Does Bo Know]

So do you think it's either of those?

[Does Bo Know]

There are valid reasons why we shouldn't claim our lists, as you mentioned in a post that I'm not gonna bother scrolling up to cite.

So is there a line between entire lists and asking someone to out one's position on a list?

[Does Bo Know]

EBWOP: Was that question in your PEdit directed at me? Because I think you're telling the truth and I don't see the issue with your answers.

[Does Bo Know]

I just don't see how you'd catch him in the lie, or like what he'd have to say to get caught.

But I guess it doesn't matter, since you didn't find anything anyway.

[Does Bo Know]

I wanna be a serial killer

I guess I should play in more Normals?

But anyway, GNR, you were in the group that thought posting lists would help town more than scum, right? Considering you thought it was like cheat codes?

[Does Bo Know]

I don't remember it either.

It's kinda why I questioned you, and gave my best guess based on context clues.

[Does Bo Know]

@Egg: I used to claim my alignment in every game. It got me banned.

PJ's joking about that.

Ewwwww

This is gross.

It did not seem like Pjovek was joking.

That pinged my gut hard. Maybe they're partners?

Have you two ever played together before?

[Does Bo Know]

@DBK: I took it as a joke. I don't think I've played with PJ before, or even know who he is. Same goes for most of the playerbase of this game.
People've been joking about my 'trust tell' with me a lot lately, so there's that.

Fair enough. Apparently you're not the only one that took it as a joke.

I'm not good at interpreting joking like that. Which is ironic considering how much sarcasm I tend to use.

I was assuming Varsoon-Pjovek just now because I thought Pjovek was being serious and when only Varsoon really caught it as a joke in 200, it made me think only he knew it was a joke because they would be partners. And then the whole paranoia about scum lying about their lists and Varsoon sayin Pjovek was likely scum due to his position on the list, plus Pjovek's knowledge of Varsoon's trust tell thing...it was a spur of the moment.

"Meanwhile, back in reality..."

Haschel, what is your read on Pjovek?

[Does Bo Know]

I don't remember saying it would help town more so than scum. Hang on.

(And both of the times I was a SK, it was a theme)

So sure, it was my bad to make an assumption, but I'm going to ask directly now: Do you think posting lists helps town or scum more?

I also agree that 190 + 194 looks contradictory. Plus, when GNR said "Hang on" in 194, I assumed he was going to do something after that. He hasn't yet. I can concur with the Riggs scumread.

I don't see why TSO is gut-scumreading Haschel. He doesn't know why either, but I haven't noticed Haschel do anything scummy.

[Does Bo Know]

#212 is dumb as shit.

[Does Bo Know]

Now it definitely doesn't seem like a joke.

If that's the reason for asking Varsoon to claim his alignment...ugh.

Paranoia's coming back. I'm thinking Pjovek is VT too. No one seems to know who he is so he was likely near the bottom of plenty of lists. Plus, I can see VT-Pjovek doing something like that: seeing if he could try to work with Varsoon to see if he was town. If Pjovek had a partner, I wouldn't see a need for this unless he was coached.

But he also says it was half joking so ugggghhhhh I can't fucking decide, he probably wasn't coached, fuck it, he's probably VT.

Through this, I guess I'm getting a gut-town read from Varsoon for seeming genuine about thinking he'd be "partnered" with other VT's.

UNVOTE: Pjovek
VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

@Garantula: Trust tells are when you can do something to prove a certain alignment in some games.

[Does Bo Know]

Fair enough, Titus.

Do you have anything else to talk about? You were gone for quite a while.

[Does Bo Know]

@Titus: there was more discussion over the past two days than Varsoon's trust tell. That part seems to be less than a chunk of the thread, IMO.

[Does Bo Know]

227 was my exact mindset earlier.

[Does Bo Know]

I think it was a lot of list theory stuff, which I guess you don't have to comment on specifically, but as long as you read it that's good since some of us have formulated reads while talking about list stuff.

How big is GNR's wagon?

[Does Bo Know]

Hey GNR

Got anything to say about Pjovek besides that vote?

[Does Bo Know]

I love when I'm on the same wavelength as another player.

Yeah, plus thinking Pjovek is only scummy for his vote is ridiculous when most of your wagon consists of everyone basically agreeing with Haschel's reasoning.

[Does Bo Know]

GNR is town. #65 is the correct mentality and strategy as town.
Whereas I don't agree having the list will be equivalent to having cheat code, all his posts has only town mentality that makes sense and understandable in his position.

Correction: 65 is a not-Wolf mentality. Focusing strictly on werewolves lets Mafia overwhelm the town by the time the werewolves die. Unless werewolves hit Mafia, but with the amount of town compared to Mafia in this game, that isn't as likely.

So no, I don't agree with you. GNR is unlikely wolf, but we can't write him off as town and move on.

Dolittle, I'm guessing you haven't played a Jungle Republic game either?

[Does Bo Know]

Natirasha, what took so long for you to vote Pjovek?

Why have his votes been OMGUSy when only

one

of them was OMGUSy? GNR's vote on Pjovek looks more OMGUSy than Pjovek's vote on GNR anyway.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, that second question might be a bad one depending on how you were saying the last past of your Pjovek case.

Still, 80% of those things happened a long time ago.

The weird thing is, you vote Pjovek when the wagon does down. That's incredibly convenient.

[Does Bo Know]

DrD and Egg both attempt to provide some content.

GNR doesn't really. He wanted to hunt wolves but his main hunting tactic is voting Pjovek for a his GNR vote whennnnnn more people than Pjovek sheeped Haschel's reasoning.

The contradiction is a little compelling, since it's odd he'd "forget" whether he said showing lists help town or scum. If he thought he said lists were town the first time without being directly pushed to say so, why would he forget what he said the second time

whilst

being pushed to say so?

[Does Bo Know]

Ummm

So you're not caught up yet?

Or are you? Lol

[Does Bo Know]

Haschel, so do you think Mutley has a high chance of being VT too?

[Does Bo Know]

@Egg: 245 was an assumption that Nati could be scum trying to make sure a wagon would stay off of GNR. Like making Pjovek a counter wagon. After that though, he cleared himself up (not a fast voter, needed more compelling evidence) and that eliminated my suspicion.

[Does Bo Know]

Honestly I don't understand how the particular highlighted spots enhance his case. Not do I believe Mafia-GNR would be any less possible than Town-GNR, regardless of his explanation. It's a pretty WIFOMy reason to call GNR town considering all the other evidence against him thus far.

[Does Bo Know]

^^Is this talking about Dolittle's 274 or GNR's 24 and 65?

[Does Bo Know]

My point was that I feel like you're relying your town read on something too flimsy compared to other stuff.

And that you didn't really strengthen your case on Pjovek, in my opinion.

[Does Bo Know]

Holy shit Tochica

I swear I had no idea who you were for the longest time. It's been a while hasn't it?

So anyway

I'm not really used to scum with day talk, but I know IceGuy likes having day talk in his setups.

And

I also remember reading the setup in this game that said some people had day talk, but I didn't remember whether it was all scum or just one scum faction or just Masons or whatever. So I went with assuming "some scum have day talk." Believe me or not, whatevs.

I've given reasons why Pjovek and Mutley could be VT. Granted, it's list speculation stuff and the fact they could be near the bottom on everyone's lists, therefore they wouldn't be partnered with everyone. But yeah. Varsoon I'm not as sure about as the other two, but his comments about the setup and "VT's partnering with him" seems genuine.

[Does Bo Know]

Yeah, I haven't been careful with protecting PRs. Sorry about that, I guess? My explanations for why some players were town couldn't be explained without assuming they were VT.

[Does Bo Know]

...with Tochica...

[Does Bo Know]

I don't trust blocs. I understand that scum might want to hunt scum at some point, but last time a town-bloc was an attempted structure in a Jungle Republic I played (the one Egg's talking about), there was a Mafia (me) on it and a wolf (Syryana) on it.

Syryana's partner was lynched Day 1 and he rode on the town train to win the game.

On another note, I tried forming a town bloc in a Newbie game, and the remaining scum was on it due to a really nice trick that I fell for. If I had stayed alive, I was willing to ride that town bloc to endgame.

So no. No blocs for me. They might cloud my judgment and lead to lies.

[Does Bo Know]

DrDo have you any reads/thoughts about others you could share?

[Does Bo Know]

I reread the thread, but I'm still overwhelmed. I'm going to wait to vote until I can make heads of this mess.

With your vote, I'm assuming you've made heads of this mess?

[Does Bo Know]

Good job Nati, thought you'd end up winning it once Haschel was found out.

Yeah, so lesson learned: in JR or a game similar, Mafia hunting is just as important as Wolf hunting. And Mafia NK's are just as important as Town NK's to the Wolf. That's why it's so even: you have to judge whichever kills and lynches help you out in the long run.

Ultimately hate Bartlet for self-hammer. No one cares if Haschel would've hammered. Staying alive longer means town gets to talk more, and you prohibited that from happening. That's never a good scenario.

[Does Bo Know]

Much as he patronized me, I don't really think it made a difference. I was hell-bent on lynching his slot and scumHasch would have hammered.

In this game, probably not. But if Town-Bartlet goes around self-hammering because "he thinks he's doomed" or something, he won't be a liked player around here.

[Does Bo Know]

Mafia NK's are just as important as Town NK's to the Wolf

But Mafia couldn't kill?

bartlet: Whether or not HC was going to hammer you, that was not the optimal move, nor will it be.

Killing Mafia is just as important as killing Town, from a wolf's perspective.

[Does Bo Know]

Ice Guy tried to explain it in a QT, either the regular dead one or the spoiler dead QT. (I peek at spoilers, sue me.)

I already forgot most of it, but I haven't visited how the pairing worked since August so I'm okay with that.

[Does Bo Know]

I think I might've deleted my list or something, I cleaned my inbox a while ago. I'd have to check.

Nati I was at the bottom of your list?

It's okay, I didn't know you either. But that does explain why you had such a townread on me.

[Does Bo Know]

Never mind, I found my list. Also colored some names for giggles:

Titus

DrDolittle

Varsoon
TheGarantula
Guy_Named_Riggs

Egg
T S O

Haschel Cedricson
Natirasha

Pjovek
nickthename

Mutleyddmc

How did my list get so lucky pairing all the (original) partners together?