Mini 1483: Finagling of Flitter Hills

[notreallygood]

You never know...

[don_johnson]

Don, didn't you say the alliance was the best strategy and it had never failed you?

that is what I said. its my opinion that it is a really good strategy and that scum will usually fight against it. especially scum on the outside of the alliance. general skepticism is to be expected from any player who has not experienced a game with an alliance, but scum generally flat out refuse that sort of shenanigans. townies generally at least see the possible merit. but whatevz. I guess i'll read.

[don_johnson]

don_johnson is really, really scummy looking through iso, the self vote, the alliance, the voting when KCDA told him to it's bad lol and should be lynched today.

what is scummy about any of that? lazy maybe, but scummy... do tell.

[T S O]

dj, you refused to link me to any game this strategy worked and then you complain when no-one goes for it. Can't you see the large problem with your stance? Do you think you're seen as Town by enough people to start an alliance?

[Grimgroove]

I MADE IT My God, that took some time.
Will start adding my latest notes to the ones I had on each person already, thusly repeating myself,b ut also making my contributions more clear and organized.

My notes on

beastcharizard, notreallygood and don_johnson

will be kept for seperate posts for each. I think they're scum. Individually, and some links work. The link notreallygood - don_johnson doesn't work as well because of notreallygood's fairly strong push on Don Johnson J, but I don't want to think about links too much at this point. My notes are quite clearly showing strong scumreads for those three, and not only that, but PoE (with one or two wildcards for some reads) also leads me to believe that. This makes me a bit wary of some self-confirmation reading, but I'll leave it up to you people to judge on that.

Walls incoming.

[don_johnson]

post 41 is my first issue.

Why do you think your questions are conducive to finding scum?

TSO posts this in response to beast 38, but I don't see anything in post 38 which makes me think beast is inferring that his questions are anything more than discussion starters. i often find that scum try to spin things in negative fashion, try to make others look bad, etc. the trick to being scum is not be too obvious, so it is the subtle twists i look for. this to me seems subtle enough. it is a sideways accusation and there is not vote with it. not huge, but this is the first thing that sends up red flags for me.

in fact, when i look back up that page, i notice TSO also calls out bril for asking me a question regarding my vote. TSO implies the question is of no value, but imo a question on page two asking a player to explain their actions has the value of creating discussion. so that's two players on the same page that TSO seems to be trying to make look bad.

i'm going to try and not tunnel on TSO here, but i know there are a couple more things coming up which grabbed me momentarily.

As far as I see there were two people who didn't want to take the questions seriously and picked one over the other. Doesn't hurt to know why. Use what is in front of you this early.

^^ i see this as a perfectly acceptable response. TSO does point out the "omgus" reasoning offered, but in reality, misspelling a name is a joke reason. not answering questions seemed like the more serious accusation. ftr, at the time, i was just fucking around. but for bril to pick up on that is not odd.

second red flag:

bril posts 44 and 45. they show up as one minute apart. its almost like bril answers TSO's question with a kind of "well... maybe" type answer and then quickly realizes he should be paying more attention so he addresses another post. i don't know. its a stretch, but those time stamps seem awfully close...

post 47 is a positive from TSO, cause it shows he is following up his line of questioning.

Kc 53 is interesting point. kind of like the beetlejuice syndrome. reinforces the Kc town read i develop later on.

i still like titus' entry post. its just kind of a middle finger. i don't think beast is scummy, but titus post 1 is ok.

beast's brush off of the vote is another red flag. i think town beast would have been a little more defensive.

fell it's read on beast in 74 is fencesit. that's ok, but if either flips scum it could be an associative tell.

post 75, i'm moving notreallygood into my town pile for good and i'm not going to discuss why. gut says town based on his play.

post 80 is poor reasoning imo. its kind of like, "well if this guy keeps playing in this style i will lynch them, but as soon as they do something that other people think is townie, i will not lynch them." it really has no merit and by being so obvious about why the vote exists, the vote really has no pressure, which is what gives votes therir value.

scum pile at this time: beast bril paper.

will continue with next post.

p-edit: TSO- the alliance works against the scum win condition. scum proposing an alliance with their buddies in the drivers seat would be an epic gambit. odds are that someone proposing an alliance is town. but this is from my 90+ games of experience in forum mafia. so what do i know. either way, i'm reading now. so we're doing this the hard way.

[don_johnson]

sthar8 82 is pretty town. kind of wish i'd been paying attention here. but either way, hindsight is 20/20. doesn't change my read on Kc.

94: "why me = fry me"? only positive in it is the "ask me questions" request, but that could be alignment neutral, especially considering the circumstances. beast should be focusing elsewhere.

beast 96 is posturing. calling don out as "scummy" is a real easy move here considering i am still joking around on page 4.

titus 97: i hate posts that say "we need to scumhunt." they are useless, they state the obvious, and are generally used by scum players to seem like they care. red flag.

sthar8 99 puts it perfectly:

Well, I agree that you need to start scumhunting.

sthar8 is in the town pile with Kc and notreallygood.

feel it 100 seems forced. pointless post to make it appear that they are honestly confused. they could have answered their own question with a quick look at the OP.

TSO 109 and 110 reinforces the new TSO town read. but seriously, notreallygood is town. end of discussion.

beast 115 is terrible. titus then unvoting beast is also terrible.

if i didn't have a gut read on notreallygood, i would probably move them to the scumpile for their reads in 117, but reads at the time and reads on a reread are a bit different. whatevz.

What I don't like about Don: He has posted NOTHING of content. That is what i dislike. He seems to pretend to want to contribute while doing nothing to actually contribute.
Since I am doing most the work here I do expect other people to do something so yeah.

i think i was pretty straightforward about my level of contribution. don't think i ever "pretended" anything. "pretended" is one of those catch phrases i mentioned in my earlier post. the kind scum use to subtly spin what someone says or does into looking scummy. its an overexaggeration of an emotion. a descriptor word that carries a negative spin.

wow, follow it up with the conviction of sthar8 as uber scummy and it doesn't make sense. sthar8 is just asking reasonable questions and making reasonable points. the only thing they might be guilty of is not explaining some reasoning that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. beast may very well be scum.

How has anything I've done so far been consistent with a scum win condition?

^^ this is a question every responsible townie should be asking themselves when voting someone.(change "I've done" to "they've done".) but you get my drift.

bottom of page 5. tbc...

[Grimgroove]

Busted post hidden by Toomai per request. Corrected post follows.

Spoiler: Original post

I'm bolding the people's names and the direct questions, if any, I have for them under their name.

The reads are in no particular order, but hereunder all people are quite town to me, varying in intensity. I'll try putting them in a certain order later.

All conclusions here are that these people "are in my townpile". This means different things to different people, so just let me repeat this varies in intensity, even though the wording is the same for every person. They're just in a pile of people for which I see enough reasons to trust them, FOR NOW.

Titus

Haven't gotten written down much, apart from me really liking his entrance, as he shared my views on beastcharizard at that point. I also liked his 97, especially the part about Don Johnson's buddying. Don't really know what he was doing by making two persons out of charizard and beast though.

Titus, could you explain what happened here with splitting up beast and charizard as two entities?

Despite my few notes, he strikes me as very townish. It's just that all of his posts so far rub me the right way.

I liked his 180. A lot of people voting someone who just voted them, would refer to the notion of "OMGUS", just to be ahead of the inevitable comments that will follow. Yet, Titus did not bother doing that. It shows to me Titus isn't bothered about how he's being percieved. He's mainly focused on his case and on the reasons for his vote, which in my view are also justified. I also liked the comment on how TSO and sthar were being town vs town. Firstly because I feel the same way, and secondly because it's not a comment I see scum make easily. Scum would be more inclined to join one of the parties in that fight, hoping one of them gets lynched, or just stand back and watch them both devour each other. Titus stepped in and tried to (albeit modestly) defuse the situation.
Titus' suspicions (paranoia?) in 242 also feels very genuine and townish. I also liked 264, 326 and 353. I didn't add reasons to why liking them, but all I see under the name Titus is positive stuff.

Titus is in my townpile.

Elyse

(replacing brjl)

I didn't like brjl at all. His posts seemed to come off too much as him being Mr. Nice Guy. Lots of smilies and jokes, very little content.
Elyse's 152 changed this completely. That post almost summed up word for word what I had on other people myself at that point. This results in a strong townread on Elyse from my part. The only strange thing I found about that post was the vote on notreallygood, whereas I expected that vote to come on beastcharizard.

Reading further, I only have written down the numbers of posts of Elyse and put a symbol of my appreciation next to them. They were all positive. I liked 183, 189, 207 and post 289.
We do have one major disagreement though, and that is pertaining to her post 339. I see where she's coming from, as there was something that screamed town when first glancing at Don Johnson's 338, but I don't feel it warrants such a strong townread at all. More on Don Johnson later.
The main reason why Elyse has been scrutinzed are her townreads on people who didn't post much. As you'll find I agree on most of those townreads. I think the push on her was bad, and yes, scummy. MAybe Elyse did try to overexplain it (partially because of having been forced to) while much of the townreads were probably also gut, but the reasons for her townreading those people were always clear and not as mysterious as her attackers made it out to be. More on that later.

Elyse is in my townpile.

Kcdaspot

I liked his post 53, it was an odd follow-up of events in my eyes as well. It's a pity his 63 tries to pass off everything before that as one big joke. Looks very clumsy. The bits about his "suspicious winking" seem to come out of nowhere, possibly revealing some over-worrying about he and his smilies could be percieved. I have no idea what his post 84 actually means and refers to, and as far as I can tell he never expanded on it. Nevertheless that post felt townie to me. Also his 168 felt very townish to me, particularly the part where he welcomes sthar to the game. It shows some confidence towards the greatest contributor to the game that makes me feel he's town. He's a townread of mine, but it's all gut.

His 232 struck me as very weird. It could be a coincidence, but the fact that he seemed to be able to be summoned by sthar felt as if he's watching and lurking and only posting when someone calls his name. A Candyman of sorts. But as far as I can see, this only happened once, so what I see in Kcda is someone trying a game of mafia, not really liking it, flaking, and when being here mostly taking the piss. 274 is a prime example of him taking none of this seriously. He's not trying.
I still have him as a townread though. It's hard to define, but I think as scum he would take the piss in a different way, by defying people on the wrong track and stuff like that. Here he's just "playing along with town" by providing ridicculous reads, but it still feels like it comes from a town standpoint.
I do hope he will change his attitude at some point.

Kcda is in my townpile.

sthar8

(questions already addressed have not been bolded)

Every game needs his obvtown and he's the one who gets the part, is what I said earlier, but this is no longer true, though I still consider him town. In the beginning I found his strong support for the RQS bizarre, as well as the, at that point, unexplained vote on Kcda. By page 4 he claimed to be on to something. I'm currently reading some Agatha Cristie's, and it reminded me a lot of the Hercule Poirot character. Smugly sitting in a chair, appearing to have it all worked out, and delivering at the end of the book while showing he was truly onto something all along. Shtar's breakthroughs are not as legendary as Hercule Poirot's (not yet, at least), but they already come quite close. I loved his 148. His 161 was equally impressive. I do have two questions noted down here:
*Why, in the scheme of things, was it important for sthar to wait for Paperscraps in particular? I never saw and still don't see the significance of Paperscraps in this scheme. In post 111 Paperscraps is brought up as a related note, and shortly after he becomes the one unmet condition in order for sthar to divulge his plans. An oddity I'd like cleared up. Hercule Poirot never leaves any loose ends in his logic, so I expect the same of sthar.
* This question is a bit less relevant now since sthar himself admitted to that part of the argument against TSO being the weakest, but I found the way he called out TSO for coaching beastcharizard not up to par with the rest of his material. First of all, it is an associative tell that we can only use once either of them flips. Second, I don't think the point he makes in 170 is very convincing when it comes to town TSO not asking beastcharizard to make a case against don_johnson. I could see that happenv ery easily. I myself often ask people to provide cases against the people they consider scummy,b ecause it allows me to catch two flies in one go: assess the accuser and the accused. Of course, it is always better to present your own case, but I don't see the big deal of this "coaching"-business.
I'll get to TSO later, but my notes on him don't really agree with the viewpoints presented by sthar8 on TSO in post 161. Given TSO seems to be the main lynch-candidate for today, I imagine some debate.
As evident from my earlier comments on Kcda, I also don't agree with sthar's views on that guy. I find it a bit of an anti-climax to see his elaborate plan result in a vote on someone who looks to me as a harmless lurker. But like I said, that's just my gut talking.

Further notes on sthar confirm my townread on him. However, again some disagreements:

In 213 you refer to a case on Kcda that is much stronger than the other cases you have, but when referring back to 161 I feel this is untrue. What did you feel was so strong about that case? All I really see in that case, I'm sorry to say, is OMGUS, as it pertains his vote on you, and him trying to convince Don to also vote you. Just add a bit of lurking to that and you have a case, true enough, but I don't feel it's a strong case, and defintely not stronger than what you had on the others.

I liked 231 and also 250 (although that stuff about "getting a baseline" is going way over my head). Also liked 331.
I did not like 357. Feels like too strong of a push on someone he's been calling a teenager, and I fear his judgement may be a bit clouded. This push made him lose his obvtown-position in my eyes, as it could be scum getting impatient after all the effort he put into getting a mislynch. But that's just a hypothesis at the very back of my mind, as I still think sthar is town. But the push rubs me the wrong way, because only earlier sthar agreed to his interactions with him only amounting to a read on what kind of person TSO could be, but less on what his alignment is. I also don't like that last sentence, as that comes down to a policy lynch.
I think sthar should push more on beastcharizard again. I get the feeling sthar8 is feeling a bit guilty/bad for the way he played beastcharizard, and is now giving him too much slack as a result.

sthar8 is in my townpile.

Feel it

Haven't written much about him. I noted that I liked his 74 and his 129, the last one for sheeping the people I consider town. Doesn't stand out, but overall a good townfeel on him.

Also on my further read-through I didn't write down a lot about Feel It. I liked his 182, which I thought were decent reads.

Could you further explain the strong townread you had on notreallygood you had there though? I know some arguments are put where you put Paperscrap's name due to some confusion, but somehow I feel they don't warrant such a strong townread.

I didn't like his vote on Elyse in 223, partially because of personal disagreement, but also because of the reason to do so, namely an association with runnerman. An associative tell at this stage I don't find quite as a tipping argument to warrant such a vote. Seems a bit easy/lazy.
I did like his 257 and 361.

Feel It is in my townpile.

runnerman

Hasnt really posted much. Started with a safe RVS, and has been fairly inactive and lazy. In his 133 , but I really liked the part about Titus which felt very townish to me. I also liked his 144.

Reading further I liked his interventions. It's true that he's very, euhm, post- and word-efficient in his contributions, but they always do feel like contributions, however short they are. Every post of his shows he's been attentively reading the game, and what he says is usually pertinent, and if not pertinent, at least genuine and natural. I don't understand his 201 (

Can you explain that please, I don't think you did?

), and I didn't like what he said in 202, but I immediately felt that was a playstyle-thing, and not alignment indicative.
I really liked his 245.

runnerman is in my townpile.

Paperscraps

Didn't like how he started with that joke about everyone self-voting and him hammering. It made him come off as a newbie which he is clearly not. It also made him come off as careless, and people coming off as careless usually rub me the wrong way because that means they're actively trying to come across as such. I did like how he mirrored sthar8 at some point (didn't write down which post that was, but it was that vote where he mimicks sthar's vote on Kcda and votes on sthar himself). Somehow it felt like the move of a confident townsperson to treat sthar in such a way. By then sthar wasn't the presence that he is now, but I thought sthar's first few posts already hinted at him being a player not to trifle with too much. Yet Paperscraps did just that. Felt bold.
I also liked his 139, the "long awaited response", in which he correctly wonders why this response was so crucial.
141's second question I found especially pertinent.
His reads in 169 I find less convincing. I disagree with quite a few of them.

In 235, I did not understand why he switched onto Titus. His vote was on TSO, but he moves his vote away from him and onto Titus, while still saying in that same post that TSO is still in his scumteam.

Can you explain this move? Your argumentation for 1. dropping pressure from TSO and 2. increasing pressure on Titus is not clear here.

.
I like 293 and 333. I like the style of 332^/post], but again, as with his previous reads, I disagree with big protions of the content. I still see a town mindset though.

Paperscraps is in my townpile.

Smudger

No notes. Hasn't posted anything of any value up to where I got.

Reading further, he delivered. He's one of my stronger townreads. My notes on him almost only contain post numbers and the V-symbol next to them, indicating I like them. I liked it all, particularly [post]188, 194, 198, 212, 259, 308, 335 (

though I didn't understand how the vote ended up on TSO here given the reads

) and 352.
Even though there was seldom a push on people or anything like that, I always found his comments on the mark and very insightful. Despite the lack of pushing on people, I felt sincere engagement through it all.

Smudger is in my townpile.

TSO

I'm going to start off by saying I had read the last post before entering this topic, and saw suspicions were raised against him (someone calling him out on his reads being poor). I regretted having read that, as I imagined this would bias me in a stance against TSO, but I have to say my impression of his first posts was very positive. I particularly liked how he defied beastcharizard by not answering his questions. And I also liked his vote on Don Johnson because he self-voted. I think I would have done something similar. I also thought his questions to brjl (Elyse's slot) were very pertinent at the time. (I apologize for not adding post numbers, I didn't write them down, but it's on the first few pages of the topic). My first question mark was raised when he townread Feel It in 54, which felt very out of the blue at the time, as well as his scumread on Kcda just after it.

It's been a while, but could you elaborate on those reads?

Like Elyse (again :p) I had a complete opposite reaction: I thought Kcda looked townish after that, and Feel It didn't). Though I do not agree with his critisisms on sthar in 134 and those coming just after it, they do feel authentic and not forced. I also liked his 142, which I found to be a just criticism toward beastcharizard.

Reading further I took very few notes on him, also because I got kind of disinterest in the back-and-forth with sthar8. I thought his 205 was a very townish response.
I put question marks next to two post numbers: 343 (which somehow felt as coming off very strong at the time, combined with very little (no), argumentation)

Can you explain why you said what you said in that post?And why you didn't vote him at the time?

and 348 (which felt petty). 360 are very weak reads indeed.

When starting this list I felt TSO would also still be in my townpile, but I can't say he is. I don't have as much of a case against him like I feel I do on notreallygood, beastcharizard and don johnson though, but he could be scum. But I don't feel sthar's arguments for him really being scum (hence why I didn't really like the push), so I'd like to wait a bit more when it comes to TSO before making a conclusion.

Coming up: my thoughts on my three suspects. I don't think I'll be able to do them today though, but we'll see.

After that I'll respond to the most recent events.















Elyse (replacing brjl)

I didn't like brjl at all. His posts seemed to come off too much as him being Mr. Nice Guy. Lots of smilies and jokes, very little content.
Elyse's 152 changed this completely. That post almost summed up word for word what I had on other people myself at that point. This results in a strong townread on Elyse from my part. The only strange thing I found about that post was the vote on notreallygood, whereas I expected that vote to come on beastcharizard.

[Grimgroove]

Fuck.

@mod

: Could you edit my 432 to a "-" or something? I fear I messed up the lay-out beyond repair there.

I will hide it in a spoiler tag, instead of flat-out removing it.

Clean version here. Should really hit preview more.

I'm bolding the people's names and the direct questions, if any, I have for them under their name.

The reads are in no particular order, but hereunder all people are quite town to me, varying in intensity. I'll try putting them in a certain order later.

All conclusions here are that these people "are in my townpile". This means different things to different people, so just let me repeat this varies in intensity, even though the wording is the same for every person. They're just in a pile of people for which I see enough reasons to trust them, FOR NOW.

Titus

Haven't gotten written down much, apart from me really liking his entrance, as he shared my views on beastcharizard at that point. I also liked his 97, especially the part about Don Johnson's buddying. Don't really know what he was doing by making two persons out of charizard and beast though.

Titus, could you explain what happened here with splitting up beast and charizard as two entities?

Despite my few notes, he strikes me as very townish. It's just that all of his posts so far rub me the right way.

I liked his 180. A lot of people voting someone who just voted them, would refer to the notion of "OMGUS", just to be ahead of the inevitable comments that will follow. Yet, Titus did not bother doing that. It shows to me Titus isn't bothered about how he's being percieved. He's mainly focused on his case and on the reasons for his vote, which in my view are also justified. I also liked the comment on how TSO and sthar were being town vs town. Firstly because I feel the same way, and secondly because it's not a comment I see scum make easily. Scum would be more inclined to join one of the parties in that fight, hoping one of them gets lynched, or just stand back and watch them both devour each other. Titus stepped in and tried to (albeit modestly) defuse the situation.
Titus' suspicions (paranoia?) in 242 also feels very genuine and townish. I also liked 264, 326 and 353. I didn't add reasons to why liking them, but all I see under the name Titus is positive stuff.

Titus is in my townpile.

Elyse

(replacing brjl)

I didn't like brjl at all. His posts seemed to come off too much as him being Mr. Nice Guy. Lots of smilies and jokes, very little content.
Elyse's 152 changed this completely. That post almost summed up word for word what I had on other people myself at that point. This results in a strong townread on Elyse from my part. The only strange thing I found about that post was the vote on notreallygood, whereas I expected that vote to come on beastcharizard.

Reading further, I only have written down the numbers of posts of Elyse and put a symbol of my appreciation next to them. They were all positive. I liked 183, 189, 207 and post 289.
We do have one major disagreement though, and that is pertaining to her post 339. I see where she's coming from, as there was something that screamed town when first glancing at Don Johnson's 338, but I don't feel it warrants such a strong townread at all. More on Don Johnson later.
The main reason why Elyse has been scrutinzed are her townreads on people who didn't post much. As you'll find I agree on most of those townreads. I think the push on her was bad, and yes, scummy. MAybe Elyse did try to overexplain it (partially because of having been forced to) while much of the townreads were probably also gut, but the reasons for her townreading those people were always clear and not as mysterious as her attackers made it out to be. More on that later.

Elyse is in my townpile.

Kcdaspot

I liked his post 53, it was an odd follow-up of events in my eyes as well. It's a pity his 63 tries to pass off everything before that as one big joke. Looks very clumsy. The bits about his "suspicious winking" seem to come out of nowhere, possibly revealing some over-worrying about he and his smilies could be percieved. I have no idea what his post 84 actually means and refers to, and as far as I can tell he never expanded on it. Nevertheless that post felt townie to me. Also his 168 felt very townish to me, particularly the part where he welcomes sthar to the game. It shows some confidence towards the greatest contributor to the game that makes me feel he's town. He's a townread of mine, but it's all gut.

His 232 struck me as very weird. It could be a coincidence, but the fact that he seemed to be able to be summoned by sthar felt as if he's watching and lurking and only posting when someone calls his name. A Candyman of sorts. But as far as I can see, this only happened once, so what I see in Kcda is someone trying a game of mafia, not really liking it, flaking, and when being here mostly taking the piss. 274 is a prime example of him taking none of this seriously. He's not trying.
I still have him as a townread though. It's hard to define, but I think as scum he would take the piss in a different way, by defying people on the wrong track and stuff like that. Here he's just "playing along with town" by providing ridicculous reads, but it still feels like it comes from a town standpoint.
I do hope he will change his attitude at some point.

Kcda is in my townpile.

sthar8

(questions already addressed have not been bolded)

Every game needs his obvtown and he's the one who gets the part, is what I said earlier, but this is no longer true, though I still consider him town. In the beginning I found his strong support for the RQS bizarre, as well as the, at that point, unexplained vote on Kcda. By page 4 he claimed to be on to something. I'm currently reading some Agatha Cristie's, and it reminded me a lot of the Hercule Poirot character. Smugly sitting in a chair, appearing to have it all worked out, and delivering at the end of the book while showing he was truly onto something all along. Shtar's breakthroughs are not as legendary as Hercule Poirot's (not yet, at least), but they already come quite close. I loved his 148. His 161 was equally impressive. I do have two questions noted down here:
*Why, in the scheme of things, was it important for sthar to wait for Paperscraps in particular? I never saw and still don't see the significance of Paperscraps in this scheme. In post 111 Paperscraps is brought up as a related note, and shortly after he becomes the one unmet condition in order for sthar to divulge his plans. An oddity I'd like cleared up. Hercule Poirot never leaves any loose ends in his logic, so I expect the same of sthar.
* This question is a bit less relevant now since sthar himself admitted to that part of the argument against TSO being the weakest, but I found the way he called out TSO for coaching beastcharizard not up to par with the rest of his material. First of all, it is an associative tell that we can only use once either of them flips. Second, I don't think the point he makes in 170 is very convincing when it comes to town TSO not asking beastcharizard to make a case against don_johnson. I could see that happenv ery easily. I myself often ask people to provide cases against the people they consider scummy,b ecause it allows me to catch two flies in one go: assess the accuser and the accused. Of course, it is always better to present your own case, but I don't see the big deal of this "coaching"-business.
I'll get to TSO later, but my notes on him don't really agree with the viewpoints presented by sthar8 on TSO in post 161. Given TSO seems to be the main lynch-candidate for today, I imagine some debate.
As evident from my earlier comments on Kcda, I also don't agree with sthar's views on that guy. I find it a bit of an anti-climax to see his elaborate plan result in a vote on someone who looks to me as a harmless lurker. But like I said, that's just my gut talking.

Further notes on sthar confirm my townread on him. However, again some disagreements:

In 213 you refer to a case on Kcda that is much stronger than the other cases you have, but when referring back to 161 I feel this is untrue. What did you feel was so strong about that case? All I really see in that case, I'm sorry to say, is OMGUS, as it pertains his vote on you, and him trying to convince Don to also vote you. Just add a bit of lurking to that and you have a case, true enough, but I don't feel it's a strong case, and defintely not stronger than what you had on the others.

I liked 231 and also 250 (although that stuff about "getting a baseline" is going way over my head). Also liked 331.
I did not like 357. Feels like too strong of a push on someone he's been calling a teenager, and I fear his judgement may be a bit clouded. This push made him lose his obvtown-position in my eyes, as it could be scum getting impatient after all the effort he put into getting a mislynch. But that's just a hypothesis at the very back of my mind, as I still think sthar is town. But the push rubs me the wrong way, because only earlier sthar agreed to his interactions with him only amounting to a read on what kind of person TSO could be, but less on what his alignment is. I also don't like that last sentence, as that comes down to a policy lynch.
I think sthar should push more on beastcharizard again. I get the feeling sthar8 is feeling a bit guilty/bad for the way he played beastcharizard, and is now giving him too much slack as a result.

sthar8 is in my townpile.

Feel it

Haven't written much about him. I noted that I liked his 74 and his 129, the last one for sheeping the people I consider town. Doesn't stand out, but overall a good townfeel on him.

Also on my further read-through I didn't write down a lot about Feel It. I liked his 182, which I thought were decent reads.

Could you further explain the strong townread you had on notreallygood you had there though? I know some arguments are put where you put Paperscrap's name due to some confusion, but somehow I feel they don't warrant such a strong townread.

I didn't like his vote on Elyse in 223, partially because of personal disagreement, but also because of the reason to do so, namely an association with runnerman. An associative tell at this stage I don't find quite as a tipping argument to warrant such a vote. Seems a bit easy/lazy.
I did like his 257 and 361.

Feel It is in my townpile.

runnerman

Hasnt really posted much. Started with a safe RVS, and has been fairly inactive and lazy. In his 133 , but I really liked the part about Titus which felt very townish to me. I also liked his 144.

Reading further I liked his interventions. It's true that he's very, euhm, post- and word-efficient in his contributions, but they always do feel like contributions, however short they are. Every post of his shows he's been attentively reading the game, and what he says is usually pertinent, and if not pertinent, at least genuine and natural. I don't understand his 201 (

Can you explain that please, I don't think you did?

), and I didn't like what he said in 202, but I immediately felt that was a playstyle-thing, and not alignment indicative.
I really liked his 245.

runnerman is in my townpile.

Paperscraps

Didn't like how he started with that joke about everyone self-voting and him hammering. It made him come off as a newbie which he is clearly not. It also made him come off as careless, and people coming off as careless usually rub me the wrong way because that means they're actively trying to come across as such. I did like how he mirrored sthar8 at some point (didn't write down which post that was, but it was that vote where he mimicks sthar's vote on Kcda and votes on sthar himself). Somehow it felt like the move of a confident townsperson to treat sthar in such a way. By then sthar wasn't the presence that he is now, but I thought sthar's first few posts already hinted at him being a player not to trifle with too much. Yet Paperscraps did just that. Felt bold.
I also liked his 139, the "long awaited response", in which he correctly wonders why this response was so crucial.
141's second question I found especially pertinent.
His reads in 169 I find less convincing. I disagree with quite a few of them.

In 235, I did not understand why he switched onto Titus. His vote was on TSO, but he moves his vote away from him and onto Titus, while still saying in that same post that TSO is still in his scumteam.

Can you explain this move? Your argumentation for 1. dropping pressure from TSO and 2. increasing pressure on Titus is not clear here.

.
I like 293 and 333. I like the style of 332, but again, as with his previous reads, I disagree with big protions of the content. I still see a town mindset though.

Paperscraps is in my townpile.

Smudger

No notes. Hasn't posted anything of any value up to where I got.

Reading further, he delivered. He's one of my stronger townreads. My notes on him almost only contain post numbers and the V-symbol next to them, indicating I like them. I liked it all, particularly 188, 194, 198, 212, 259, 308, 335 (

though I didn't understand how the vote ended up on TSO here given the reads

) and 352.
Even though there was seldom a push on people or anything like that, I always found his comments on the mark and very insightful. Despite the lack of pushing on people, I felt sincere engagement through it all.

Smudger is in my townpile.

TSO

I'm going to start off by saying I had read the last post before entering this topic, and saw suspicions were raised against him (someone calling him out on his reads being poor). I regretted having read that, as I imagined this would bias me in a stance against TSO, but I have to say my impression of his first posts was very positive. I particularly liked how he defied beastcharizard by not answering his questions. And I also liked his vote on Don Johnson because he self-voted. I think I would have done something similar. I also thought his questions to brjl (Elyse's slot) were very pertinent at the time. (I apologize for not adding post numbers, I didn't write them down, but it's on the first few pages of the topic). My first question mark was raised when he townread Feel It in 54, which felt very out of the blue at the time, as well as his scumread on Kcda just after it.

It's been a while, but could you elaborate on those reads?

Like Elyse (again :p) I had a complete opposite reaction: I thought Kcda looked townish after that, and Feel It didn't). Though I do not agree with his critisisms on sthar in 134 and those coming just after it, they do feel authentic and not forced. I also liked his 142, which I found to be a just criticism toward beastcharizard.

Reading further I took very few notes on him, also because I got kind of disinterest in the back-and-forth with sthar8. I thought his 205 was a very townish response.
I put question marks next to two post numbers: 343 (which somehow felt as coming off very strong at the time, combined with very little (no), argumentation)

Can you explain why you said what you said in that post?And why you didn't vote him at the time?

and 348 (which felt petty). 360 are very weak reads indeed.

When starting this list I felt TSO would also still be in my townpile, but I can't say he is. I don't have as much of a case against him like I feel I do on notreallygood, beastcharizard and don johnson though, but he could be scum. But I don't feel sthar's arguments for him really being scum (hence why I didn't really like the push), so I'd like to wait a bit more when it comes to TSO before making a conclusion.

Coming up: my thoughts on my three suspects. I don't think I'll be able to do them today though, but we'll see.

After that I'll respond to the most recent events.

[don_johnson]

damn: post 127 is another post by notreally that would have me leaning scum. i just can't do it though.

feelit post 129 is uber hypocritical and useless. they are moving into the scumpile.

current scumpile: feelit, beast, bril, paper, titus. its too large so i know i am wrong somewhere, but hopefully that will work itself out so i can narrow this down.

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!
post 130 leans scum.

Therefore, we can only wait for Paper now.

^^ is such a terrible and obvious way to avoid engaging with anyone. damn it. i'm not going to address this until tomorrow if that's possible.

i disagree with TSO 136. sthar8 seems to be the one player pushing activity for most of the early game. some of the questions might be "stupid"(though TSO doesn't point out which ones) but they are still pushing discussion, and i don't believe paper has come back to answer things yet.

TSO 138 quotes some questions from sthar to beast, and yes, some of those questions seem like joke questions, but a couple are super legit.

paper 139:

So lets move this discussion along. It being centered around you isn't helping us regardless of your alignment.

this whole posts looks to me like paper may have gotten in over his head with his retaliatory type vote and doesn't want to tangle anymore. fact is, the discussion is helping regardless of sthar's alignment, and if sthar were to be scum, the discussion would be helping even moreso. paper is now at the top of the scumpile. i need to go back and see where they answered the question referred top.

oh. i see. paper never answered the question. he just reiterated the idea that voting without a reason is scummy. he doesn't ever explain why. noted. then some boring questions. hm.

ok so 148 is town. sthar8. well done.

top of page 7 is where i'll have to call it quits today. more later tonight or tomorrow.

[Grimgroove]

don_johnson, great timing to start walling as well I have to say. Don't know how people will get thorugh both of our walls, but I hope they will :p

My apologies, looking at this page now I seem to have contributed to a huge mess.

[don_johnson]

i hate walling, but it seems that that is what this game wants. coincidence is a bitch. i'm done for a bit though. busy day ahead in the meat world.

[Feel It]

i often find that scum try to spin things in negative fashion, try to make others look bad, etc. the trick to being scum is not be too obvious, so it is the subtle twists i look for. this to me seems subtle enough. it is a sideways accusation and there is not vote with it. not huge, but this is the first thing that sends up red flags for me.

lol

fell it's read on beast in 74 is fencesit. that's ok, but if either flips scum it could be an associative tell.

feel it 100 seems forced. pointless post to make it appear that they are honestly confused. they could have answered their own question with a quick look at the OP.

feelit post 129 is uber hypocritical and useless. they are moving into the scumpile.

[Titus]

Grim, I might use an alternate shortform for beast. I might later call you Groove or gg. I mean nothing by it. Just free flowing thought.

Your read on kdca looks a lot like a scum read but you put him as town. That makes no sense.

Can you do a read on don johnson?

[Feel It]

Could you further explain the strong townread you had on notreallygood you had there though? I know some arguments are put where you put Paperscrap's name due to some confusion, but somehow I feel they don't warrant such a strong townread.

It was mostly just a gut feeling, along with him not joining the sthar wagon and having similar scum reads as me

[Grimgroove]

Grim, I might use an alternate shortform for beast. I might later call you Groove or gg. I mean nothing by it. Just free flowing thought.

Ah, I see what happened there now.

Your read on kdca looks a lot like a scum read but you put him as town. That makes no sense.

How does it look like a scumread?

Can you do a read on don johnson?

Of course, like I said, I'm doing my read on him (and beastcharizard and notreallygood) later in seperate posts, but don't have the time nor energy to get into them immediately. Maybe later tonight or tomorrow.

[Titus]

His 232 struck me as

very weird

. It could be a coincidence, but the fact that

he seemed to be able to be summoned by sthar

felt as if he's watching and lurking and only posting when someone calls his name. A Candyman of sorts. But as far as I can see, this only happened once, so what I see in Kcda is someone trying a game of mafia, not really liking it, flaking, and when being here mostly taking the piss.

274 is a prime example of him taking none of this seriously. He's not trying.

I still have him as a townread though. It's hard to define, but I think as

scum he would take the piss in a different way

, by defying people on the wrong track and stuff like that. Here he's just "playing along with town" by providing

ridicculous reads,

but it still feels like it comes from a town standpoint.
I do hope he will change his attitude at some point.

I italicized the "anti-town" or scummy behaviors. Your read contains no instance of pro-town behaviors. Yet, you label him as town.

[Grimgroove]

- the summoning: as I said, it only happened once, so I don't see it as a sign of him simply lurking and waiting for his name to pop up, I consider it a coincidence.
- him not taking it seriously and not trying: not pro-town indeed, but not necessarily scummy, I explain why by saying
- as scum he would take the piss in a different way: which is actually me saying the way he's taking the piss is NOT scummish, and thus should not have been italized.

I grant you that he didn't do much pro-town, though I did like how he started off.

Somehow there's something innocent shining through his careless manner I think. That MOONBEAMS-stuff, I don't know, it's a joke that hints at a non-caring but town attitude.

[T S O]

I thought don_johnston's post was stupid because I a) disagreed with him starting a Town bloc when I didn't even think he was Town and b) disagreed with the people in it.

Regarding the vote, I don't really know. I tend not to vote much and I tend to votepark.

[don_johnson]

@TSO, did that readlist by notfeelinggood look like a huge fencesit. Everything is seems.

Agreed.

How has anything I've done so far been consistent with a scum win condition?

You don't have to be a scum to be lynched. If you've done things that're scummy enough, other players may make a policy lynch.

I remember the last time I played, my behaviour was just like yours. I got lynched even though I was town.

Sthar, please don't be a c**t.

Lynching him just for being annoying is terrible play, we need to deduce whether he's actually scum or not.

show me how this is not hypocritical and useless. in fact, show me how i am using negative terminology to spin things to make you look scummy, as that is your point i assume? i am giving an opinion on your posts.

[don_johnson]

feelit: that is also an extremely cherry picked post. i would prefer an explanation as opposed to an "lol". its a bit confusing.

[runnerman]

t's hard to define, but I think as scum he would take the piss in a different way, by defying people on the wrong track and stuff like that.

Why did you put this part in italics? How is that a scumread when he seems to be saying the exact opposite?

"It's hard to define, but I think

as scum he would take the piss in a different way

, by defying people on the wrong track and stuff like that.

[Feel It]

@TSO, did that readlist by notfeelinggood look like a huge fencesit. Everything is seems.

Agreed.

How has anything I've done so far been consistent with a scum win condition?

You don't have to be a scum to be lynched. If you've done things that're scummy enough, other players may make a policy lynch.

I remember the last time I played, my behaviour was just like yours. I got lynched even though I was town.

Sthar, please don't be a c**t.

Lynching him just for being annoying is terrible play, we need to deduce whether he's actually scum or not.

show me how this is not hypocritical and useless. in fact, show me how i am using negative terminology to spin things to make you look scummy, as that is your point i assume? i am giving an opinion on your posts.

don please don't mean and call me names, I want to be friends

[don_johnson]

no one called you names.

vote: feelit

[sthar8]

Good lord FeelIt, we already have one of those. I don't think we need another.

If it slows down a little at work I'll get to the rest today. 13 hour workday, so might not happen.