Mafia 62: Suspicion in Sicily - Game over!

[hollywoody1221]

/confirmed

[hollywoody1221]

Random vote :

Cubsfan4ever

[/b]

[hollywoody1221]

I think that's supposed to be kinkster, but he may be playing insane. Any reasoning behind the vote?

[hollywoody1221]

Is Raffles an idiot or scum?

Perhaps it's just me, but I have not caught either of those scents in strong doses. I am much more suspicious of you for your OMGUS attitude towards him and your very nervous attitude when suspicion is being cast on you by someone.

[hollywoody1221]

That's right! Cubs...fan. I am dangerous.

Nice Top Gun reference. If I could do the Val Kilmer teeth chomp thing in text, I would.

[hollywoody1221]

I've gotta agree with Ancalagon that Toasterstrudel seems mighty suspicious with his most recent post. Kind of messing with my vote on Cubsfan. I'm not going to unvote Cubsfan at this point, but I will most definitely

FoS: Toasterstrudel

[hollywoody1221]

Yep. That's exactly what I am doing. Same as Cubsfan. But hey. Day 1, gotta put pressure on someone, doesn't really matter who. I doubt we'll end up lynching Cubsfan today anyway, that's just a Day 1 wagon. Just tossing my little lump of coal into the engine.

Let's lynch Cubsfan, K? It's not big deal he's only got 4 votes. There's room to pile more.

Alright, this is too much. This just seems way too suspicious for a pro-town player, and though I find cubsfan suspicious, ts's most recent comments are very anti-town. He's also being hypocritical, as he doesn't think we're going to lynch cubsfan, then we are. He is rubbing me in completely the wrong way.

unvote cubsfan4ever

;

vote Toaster Strudel

.

[hollywoody1221]

BTW, if anyone thinks i'm trying not to go for a lynch, I'm trying to lynch the person who will hurt us most by staying in the game. Right now, that's ToasterStrudel. He's acting like a complete r-tard right now, and if it's a ploy, as Panzerjager may be suggesting, then I must ask why a fellow townie would do that.

[hollywoody1221]

She's saying stuff that is inflammatory (getting a lot of people to voice their opinions, which are negative to someone, in this case her), which does not make sense. It seems, to me at least, that what she is saying is not very well thought out, such as saying:

Let's lynch Cubsfan, K? It's not big deal he's only got 4 votes. There's room to pile more.

I find that just way too frank, even if there is some truth to it. Four votes is about halfway there, and saying there is room to pile more just looks too suspicious.

Yep. That's exactly what I am doing. Same as Cubsfan. But hey. Day 1, gotta put pressure on someone, doesn't really matter who. I doubt we'll end up lynching Cubsfan today anyway, that's just a Day 1 wagon. Just tossing my little lump of coal into the engine.

As I stated earlier, he contradicts himself by trying to pile more votes onto Cubsfan, but then stating that we won't end up lynching him. He's playing in the same way that he accuses Cubsfan of playing, but we should vote for Cubsfan instead of him? I'm not certain that TS is scum, but he's definitely not helping our cause much.

[hollywoody1221]

In the first post, it kind of sounds like you were thinking TS was more likely town then not, and you sounded pretty much unsure in general, but then you turn around and vote for her a few posts later.

Did something change your mind?

I think you may be kind of exaggerating a few things to spread some suspicion, though I may be, and probably am, wrong. Panzerjager placed his initial FoS of TS on monday of last, then placed his vote on him that saturday. A total of almost two full pages and 5 days seems like enough time to consider all the posts of everyone else, and was a reasonable time to come to a conclusion.
I'm still reasonably sure that TS is not a help to us. Oh, and slightly off the topic I quoted, does anyone else find it ironic that the person ToasterStrudel is , according to her, voting for is the person most similar to her?

[hollywoody1221]

Ok, the r-tard thing was just a joke (and a reference to an episode of south park where they play World of Warcraft and are calling each other r-tards.) In my case, I just meant it to say the logic behind the play was failing to be acknowledged by me. If ToasterStrudel has some deeper meaning behind his earlier play, I would be more than happy to listen to his reasoning.

[hollywoody1221]

Unvote jalyn
vote spectrumvoid

Switching to the next non-voter.

Surely you must have found someone more suspicious to vote for than a nonvoter by now....right? I mean, after eight pages, we have to have someone you think is suspicious for something other than nonvoting.

[hollywoody1221]

On the whole, I agree with what Raffles just said. In the two games I've played on here, a player gets lynched more often for being an idiot (or just acting like one for a moment) than they do for being scummy. But, I still am staying on ToasterStrudel because she (he?) is making comments that I find unhelpful, and detrimental to our cause, which is to lynch the mafia, obviously. S/he is preventing us from doing that, and is, therefore, not an ally of mine.

[hollywoody1221]

t's posts like this that make me think that, for all you talk about who is your ally, and for all you are concerned about the town as whole, you aren't actually in the town, and you aren't actually our ally.

That said, though, I think Kinkster is more deserving of attention (and particuarly, pressure) right now. I want to put a bunch of votes on him and see what he does.

So, Primate, you're basically coming out and calling me scum for (as far as I can tell) agreeing with Raffles on a general statement. Then, Raffles basically follows you within about 10 minutes of your post, following your lead of the vote on Kinkster. I completely understand your vote on Kinkster, but this is just kind of strange.

[hollywoody1221]

Is it really trying to look town if you really are town? I'm just trying to get the people out that will hurt us most by staying in, i.e. scum. And, Primate, I will answer your question soon enough.
First, in case anyone has condemned me for calling a fellow townie an ally...what should I call them? I'll just go to dictionary.com for an accurate definition (for our benefit, I'll just use the ones that most accurately explain my situation)
ally-noun-
1)to associate or connect by some mutual relationship, as resemblance or friendship.
2)a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose:
3)a person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter.
So, as we all probably know, an ally is someone who cooperates with someone for some mutual benefit. All townies are allies of other townies, as well as allies with doctors, police officers, etc. But by the same token, I understand that people call mafia scum 'partners', which is usable in the same context as 'ally', so I understand why some people may be getting mad at me for using what could be called a 'buzzword'.
For everyone else, here are my 3 quotes that have been brought into question by Primate, who seemed to awake out of a multi-page slumber to bring accusations against a person who has the best interests at heart.

#153 #163 #206

BTW, if anyone thinks i'm trying not to go for a lynch, I'm trying to lynch the person who will hurt us most by staying in the game. Right now, that's ToasterStrudel. He's acting like a complete r-tard right now, and if it's a ploy, as Panzerjager may be suggesting, then I must ask why a fellow townie would do that.

In the first post, it kind of sounds like you were thinking TS was more likely town then not, and you sounded pretty much unsure in general, but then you turn around and vote for her a few posts later.

Did something change your mind?

I think you may be kind of exaggerating a few things to spread some suspicion, though I may be, and probably am, wrong. Panzerjager placed his initial FoS of TS on monday of last, then placed his vote on him that saturday. A total of almost two full pages and 5 days seems like enough time to consider all the posts of everyone else, and was a reasonable time to come to a conclusion.
I'm still reasonably sure that TS is not a help to us. Oh, and slightly off the topic I quoted, does anyone else find it ironic that the person ToasterStrudel is , according to her, voting for is the person most similar to her?

On the whole, I agree with what Raffles just said. In the two games I've played on here, a player gets lynched more often for being an idiot (or just acting like one for a moment) than they do for being scummy. But, I still am staying on ToasterStrudel because she (he?) is making comments that I find unhelpful, and detrimental to our cause, which is to lynch the mafia, obviously. S/he is preventing us from doing that, and is, therefore, not an ally of mine.

In the first quote, it comes right after Panzerjager's quote:

Alright. TS really wants to be lynched. This is a very bad situation. We have Cubsfan who is intentionally doing thinks to try and get people lynched. Then we have TS whos idiocy is confusing the town, purposeful or not. I have seen bad town and bad scum act like this. I have also seen good scum act like this purposfully counting on being ignored. So I kinda want to avoid lynching him due not wanting to lynch town but he is being detrimental. I really don't want to count on the vig(if we have one) to have to win this.

This is at a point of the game where TS is playing a game that is confusing to me, and not helping my voting situation. If he really is town, why is he playing a game that will draw a lot of flak? If he is scum, why put himself into such a position as to draw flak on day one for no good reason? This is the same question that I asked the first time, and I have yet to get a good response from ToasterStrudel.

During the second quote, I am making something of an accusation of Yosarian/defense of Panzerjager on the basis that Yosarian was exaggerating Panzerjager's statements in order to put suspicion on him. I don't know why, as the vote on ToasterStrudel was correct at the time, as ToasterStrudel was playing in a style that was not helpful to the town.

During the third and final vote, it is based on Raffles previous comment:

The way I see it after I've been playing a few games, I think I see a pattern.

Everyone goes about using a same way to hunt out a scum. That is to get everyone to act the same. Anyone who step out of this line exhibit something so-called "a scum tell", and is suspected of having a hidden agenda.

I disagree and have a healthy dislike for this tactic (which seems to be universal throughout the site). For one thing, if this were the case, the best thing for the scums to do is to forget their hidden agenda. This means that the probability of exhibiting "scum tell" is determined by the player's experience, but independent of the alignment. Which implies the probability of someone getting lynched is solely based on experience. This implies that no matter what game, it is noobish player that will get lynched and whether that person is a scum or not is solely dependent on luck.

Given this, it is far more likely that the scum would survive, because there are always less of them and they have NK ability.

Second and more general point is this rule does not allow you to experiment with different playstyle. I for one have found out a noobish play attracts far more votes than a scummy play. But I'll leave it at that as the game is still ongoing.

He makes a general statement, that may be applicable to many games. As I stated at the time, a person is more likely to be lynched early for playing stupidly than they are for playing like scum. This is because stupid play brings out the worst in some of us, and we play worse, making it easier for the mafia to turn us against each other, in general.

That is my discussion on the three quotes, and the events leading up to them. As I mentioned earlier in this post, I will now discuss my views on the scumminess of any player. Firstly, though, I want to

unvote ToasterStrudel

, as it was a vote made solely for the fact that he may influence people the wrong way.
Player List:
Analcagon -I'm not picking up scummy vibes from him. Playing quietly, made his vote on TS, seems confident in it.
Hollywoody1221- As Steve Buscemi says in Reservoir Dogs, 'I Know I'm clean'
Yosarian-Defends Dragon Phoenix to the death, has been suspicious of Kinkster since day 1 (ok, it's still day one, but I mean since page 3). I'm almost certain of an alliance with Dragon Phoenix.
Cubsfan4ever- After drawing much early suspicion against himself, he has vanished without a peep (like a virgin on prom night). I can't get a current read on him for that reason.
ToasterStrudel-Started out playing stupidly, IMO. He made a number of hypocritical statements (even though we all do at some point in a game) that I found odd, and upset my view of him. He may not be scum, but unless he does something that I cannot think of right now, I am not convinced that he is townie.
Dragon Phoenix- Has made a number of votes, that while keeping him in the public eye, are not helpful. After 7 or 8 pages into a game, we should not need to be lynching someone based on them not being here. That is so unhelpful to the lynching of mafia, as someone must have become at least somewhat suspicious to you.
Panzerjager- I am not certain that he is town, but I certain enough that I am not going to vote for him at this point. He was one of the first 3 to become suspicious of ToasterStrudel, along with myself and Analcagon, so I may be slightly biased to someone who thinks along the same pathways as myself. I am wary of his vote/unvote action on mole, because I disagree with his reasoning for doing so. He also explains why he is voting on mole, unlike DP, who did it because he hates lurkers, as he stated on post 108, 'I do not like lurkers'. It's fair enough for him not to like lurkers, but to vote him after a number of pages does not make sense, especially with his attitude.
Phoebus- Also makes the push towards a vote for mole ,for the same reason as DragonPhoenix. Plus, Yosarian defends him on post #136, saying that his actions aren't scummy. The original disagreements with DP seem forgotten now, and he is following DP on whatever thread he goes to, now that he isn't being accused.
Kinkster- May be scum, but I am less and less certain of it. First off, he dislikes DP's hardheaded decision to keep a lynch-all-lurkers vote on mole. It would become clear that after 5 pages of post, he's probably forgotten about the game, and would be replaced. He's also suspicious of phoebus's very early defense of VitaminR, after he's been a game for a very short time. I may not personally like him, but I don't think he's scum, merely because DP and phoebus find him scummy.
AlexPaleotti (Sp?)- I'm not finding him scummy, but I don't think anyone is right now.
SpectrumVoid-He's staying quiet, there's a tiny percent chance of him lurking as a scum, but I don't think so.
Primate- He randomly brought an accusation of me to the table, after I've done nothing that has been anti-town, because that would be anti-me. This was quickly followed by Yosarian's damnation of me.
Ok, I'm too tired to do anyone else right now, but I listed the people that have been playing the largest roles, or been posting most consistently. I think DP and Yosarian, and Primate are scum partners, as I implied during my section on the characters. I'm less certain that Phoebus is, but he is following DP and Yosarian blindly. TS and Cubsfan4ever were pretty viciously assaulted earlier this game, but now I am only reasonably sure that TS is scum, as DP and Yosarian managed to carefully shift the votes away from him, and onto other people. Therefore, I propose a plan. We get rid of DP, Yosarian, or Primate. If one of them fall, then I'm probably going to get killed by them in the night, for bringing suspicion on them. But, if I get lynched, remember that Yosarian and Primate brought the initial suspicion against me, and that 1)Yosarian and DP have been in agreement. 2)Phoebus has been in agreement with DP, and is following DP.
Therefore, My list of scum, and the percentage of me that thinkst that
80% or more :DP, Yosarian, and Primate
70%-80%: Phoebus
60%-70%: ToasterStrudel
That is my views on the current game, and I am now going to sleep, as I've been up for 36 of the past 44 hours, and need some sleep. But not until I

vote Dragon Phoenix

.

[hollywoody1221]

Oh and hollywoody...How am I following DP?
I don't even understand your allegations against me.

0kay, we'll start on page 3. To be fair, you don't follow him onto a vote for mole, but you do vote for him with no justification for it. You simply put 'vote mole', which is a pretty sound reason. I'll accept it as a random vote, because we are in the 'random-vote' stage. When confronted on it, you reply

mole is scum.
on principle.

I'm still willing to accept it as a random vote, but it doesn't appear so random anymore. Then, on the same page, Dragon Phoenix confronts kinkster about switching his vote to him, saying it is 'crap logic at its best'. Then on page 5, Dragon Phoenix (hereafter referred to as DP), unvotes his vote on kinkster, changing his vote to mole, stating

Unvote Cubsfan4ever

Interesting how quickly that bandwagon started to develop beyond 3 votes. Food for thought later in the game.

For now,

Vote mole

I do not like non-voters.

Phoebus responds directly after that with

can we just lynch mole?

he will likely not show up.

we can get info from the lynch.
save us messy debates.

I am still in wonder about how we can get info from it. The only people that will follow a lynch on someone who hasn't shown up yet are people who want to lynch a townie who won't defend himself. So, yes, I become suspicious of you there.
Following this, others become suspicious of you, and they voice their opinions.
Particularly, kinkster states :

wed gain nothing by just lynching someone because theve not posted
that being said Mole def needs a prod and we need to here from him

You respond, reasonably quickly, with this.

kinkster - oh yes we would. your reaction tells me some things. they may be right, they may be wrong but it's been noted.
even no defense from a person can lead to information being gleaned from other people.

I don't think we gain anything by lynching someone who hasn't posted, as they have most likely forgotten about the game completely, which means that they probably aren't going to come along at all, which implies that they need to be replaced rather than voted off. Which is what happens.
Then, primate adds his two cents by voting kinkster with no reasoning behind it, only noting that another player may be scummy. mmmkay. We should note from this, that kinkster is threatening phoebus by questioning his reasoning for voting mole. Primate, defending one of his partners, creates the kinkster bandwagon.

On the very same page

Now if I'm going to be scummy with someone else...please be sure to make a note of that.

Yes sir, and i have noted it.
Now, as I supported ToasterStrudel lynching later in the game, and have been jumped on it by Yosarian, who I believe to be scum partners with Phoebus, DP, and Primate.

And I have nothing against cubsfan as a person but just believe that his style may be detrimental to the game.

I get jumped on for doing something similar to this TS, and you let Phoebus off without even a mention of it. Well, obviously, no one is going to get angry at their scum partner for trying to bandwagon someone.
Well, for the good of all of us except for the scum, mole gets replaced by a reasonably smart player, who notes, on his first post in the game:

a) When Pheobus said:

at the risk of sounding repetitive, when i'm voting you because you can be a troll, can you please give me reasons not to vote you, without calling me names?

He wasn't actually voting for cubsfan4ever.

b) as soon as DragonPheonix talked about how fast the cubsfan4ever bandwagon was moving, it almost immediately starting reversing and TS started to go up.

Hmm. Thinking about it.

He notes how DP has been able to exert a great amount of control over a few players, who influence everyone else.

Summary
Dragon Phoenix started off a few pages before that with his altercation with kinkster, who made a vote for him based on his comments. He switches to mole, following Phoebus, who voted him for his inaction. I made a mistake in saying that he followed DP, because I only checked back to page 5 for the voting, and it had them both there. Honest mistake. But, after that, the four scum players stick together in their pairs, with Yosarian and Primate, DP and Phoebus, all playing the same, and voting on them together. They remained that way, more or less, for a long time, occasionally switching off to a player not drawing so much suspicion (Phoebus onto cubsfan), (DP onto nonvoters), so that they may remain in the background, not drawing as much suspicion as they should be.
Finally, we get to page 9: DP finally moves off of his nonvoters, and switches to Raffles. Next post, Phoebus elaborates on it, votes Raffles, and stays suspicious of Kinkster, who his partners are voting for. That is how I made my conclusion, in that they have all been connected by voting on similar players, usually directly after each other.

[hollywoody1221]

To be fair, Phoebus, I didn't look at the date of each person's joining when I came up with my reasoning. Even if y'all(god, it sounds so much better to say that in spanish than it does in southern) were 'blatantly scummy' together, there was almost no attention being paid to you. So, it was completely possible that no one would notice the connection until it was too late, which would have been bad.

[hollywoody1221]

And, in response to the WIFOM comment, as I stated in my second long post, and as you alluded to, you 'veterans' have much more influence and control than anyone else would be expected to have. This could lead to them being more obvious, and being less subversive than they might normally need to be.

[hollywoody1221]

1)When I said that there was an 80% chance that I thought you were scum, you know what that means? It means that, at that particular moment, I believed there to be an 80% chance that you were scum.
2) Obviously, no one knows what anyone else is, except for the mafia, who know who is mafia, and who isn't mafia. And, since no one knew me to be town, I had a number of choices
A) I don't defend myself at all, allowing a bandwagon to form, and possibly resulting in my lynch, which would not be good, for myself (obviously) and for the rest of the town.
B) I sarcastically satire the position, as Kinkster is doing. It's not working so well for him, so I decided this would not be the smartest thing to do.
C) I defend myself vehemently, going after anyone who has accused me. Yes, I was rather harsh of you. Yes, I'm still reasonably sure that you're mafia. This was the only logical move I could make, and arguably the best one, as if we lynch mafia today, then the mafia would probably get just a

little[/b] bit angry that I brought suspicion unto them. The doctor, if there is one, may notice they would want to get rid of me, as I found them out. Hopefully, he would defend me.
Of course, this depends on a number of things
1) I don't get myself lynched
2) There is a doctor
3) We lynch mafia
4) The mafia decides to kill me.
If we don't lynch mafia, then I am not sure how this will pan out. But, to be fair to primate, I did attack him for attacking me, but I felt I had to. And, I am much more suspicious of DP, as he is much more suspicious, in that he couldn't find a single person more suspicious than someone who isn't there.

[hollywoody1221]

D)

"Yes, I have done something legitmately scummy. However, I am not scum, so I will do my best to prove to the accuser that despite the fact that I have done something scummy, he should be focusing on someone who is, y'know, actually scum."

D) is a really major option, and probably the most important, which makes it's omission all the more annoying.
A question. Have you ever played mafia before, on another board? Do you have a link?

Okay, firstly
Yes, I've played mafia before. If I hadn't, I would have started out by playing on 'Road to Rome'. I've played it live, and online, and there are positives and negatives to both. I'm not going to question that you've been playing for a longer time than me, as is seen on every post we make. So, yes, you would have the online experience on me, which is more important, as we are online. I don't know where I've been 'legitimately scummy'. If it was the first time you quoted me, then we must agree to disagree. Otherwise, yes, I would agree with your statement D.

Yes, throwing out that I'm not the doctor was not wise, but with 18 players, and only 1 doctor, it was reasonably unlikely that I was the doctor anyway.

I chose 80 percent, once again, because that is my internal belief that I will, in the end, believe you to be scum. I think, out of 20 times, that I'm going to believe you to be scum more 10 times, but believe you to be town more than once. I still believe you to be scum, but I can say that you are putting up a hell-of-a-reasoning for me not to.

When I list out my 3 options A,B,C, those are the ones that came to my mind. I personally didn't think I had played scummy, and if I did it was an oversight. I obviously wouldn't want to go with A and B, as they would clearly result in a townie being lynched.

[hollywoody1221]

as for my vote im unsure at the moment hollywood raised one or 2 half decent theories and if hes to be followed then DP looks a good bet , but he also made a few mistakes which throws some suspicion his way as well.

Has anyone ever heard the story of 'The Jade of Master Ho?' It's an ancient parable, with reasoning that, I think, parallels what I am trying to do. Perhaps I'm being a little bit arrogant, comparing myself to a 'hero', but time shall tell:

THE JADE OF MASTER HO
Once a man of Qu named Master Ho found a piece of jade matrix in the Qu Mountains and took it to court and presented it to King Li."
King Li instructed the jeweler to examine it, and the jeweler reported, 'It is only a stone.'
The king, supposing that Ho was trying to deceive him, ordered that his left foot be cut off in punishment.
"In time King Li passed away and King Wu came to the throne, and Ho once more took his matrix and presented it to King Wu. King Wu ordered his jeweler to examine it, and again the jeweler reported, 'It is only a stone.' The king, supposing that Ho was trying to deceive him as well, ordered that his right foot be cut off.
Ho, clasping the matrix to his breast, went to the foot of the Qu Mountains, where he wept for three days and nights, and when all his tears were cried out, he wept blood in their place. The king, hearing of this, sent someone to question him. 'Many people in the world have had their feet amputated-- why do you weep so piteously over it?' the man asked.
. Master Ho said, 'I do not grieve because my feet have been cut off. I grieve because a precious jewel is dubbed a mere stone, and a man of integrity is called a deceiver. This is why I weep.'
Then the king ordered the jeweler to cut and polish the matrix, and when he had done so a precious jewel emerged. Accordingly it was named 'The Jade of Master Ho.
-----------
Within this parable, there is some evident truth. I presented a rather long, with, admittedly, a few mistakes. Within that, however, is a truth, I think. If we lynch Dragon Phoenix today, which would prove that I was at least partly right, then we have moved forward a great deal. We would be able to follow the tried and true patterns of the game, and make our analysis from there, if only we cut and polish this theorem I set out among you.

[hollywoody1221]

Yosarian, you're right on at least one count
I did not say that by lynching DP, we'd hopefully be lynching scum. It is a situation that I'm sure we've all had, in which our head thinks faster than our fingers, and we simply overlook something that is important to the argument. But, another part of my argument was that if we lynched Dragon Phoenix, it would mean that a number of people have at least, on the surface, agreed with me that he was suspicious.

[hollywoody1221]

Okay Analcagon, here is my reasoning behind the DP vote
My basis for suspicion starts from page 5

Unvote Cubsfan4ever

Interesting how quickly that bandwagon started to develop beyond 3 votes. Food for thought later in the game.

For now,

Vote mole

I do not like non-voters.

It is fair enough to not like a nonvoter, but some people are not ones to 'random vote', especially after a few pages. It could create suspicion that could come back to haunt them. Even though mole turned out not to show up, and apparently has a history of doing so, we should not be lynching someone who will be replaced.
Also, he's part of the initial bandwagon on Cubsfan, then gets 'interested' when it starts to develop. If he is voting for Cubsfan, wouldn't he already be interested and glad that he is getting more votes. Unless, of course, he doesn't believe they are scum. This poses the question, though, of :Why vote for someone if you don't have at least some belief that they are scum? Perhaps he knows they are not scum, or perhaps he didn't explain it well enough. I'm obviously leaning towards him being scum, as he has been in the game just enough to not warrant suspicion from the players (such as himself) who vote for someone who isn't active, while not providing any real help to the investigation.

Secondly, on page 8

Well, I voted mole for not voting, but his replacement Jalyn has also not voted yet. Comfortable with my vote on her.

After 8 pages, there must be someone more suspicious than someone who has not placed a vote, especially since that person has recently entered the game. I'm not willing to call that suspicious yet, as he is clearly within his right to vote on someone he feels is slowing up the game. But, within the same page,

Unvote jalyn
vote spectrumvoid

Switching to the next non-voter.

I become suspect of him at this point, and point it out almost immediately after his post.

Unvote jalyn
vote spectrumvoid

Switching to the next non-voter.

Surely you must have found someone more suspicious to vote for than a nonvoter by now....right? I mean, after eight pages, we have to have someone you think is suspicious for something other than nonvoting.

he replies with a 'nope', which starts some alarm bells going off in my head. I am comfortable with my TS vote at the time, but am unconciously uneasy of DP's actions.
On my first 'long post' on page 10, I state a similar phrase

Dragon Phoenix- Has made a number of votes, that while keeping him in the public eye, are not helpful. After 7 or 8 pages into a game, we should not need to be lynching someone based on them not being here. That is so unhelpful to the lynching of mafia, as someone must have become at least somewhat suspicious to you.

I am strongly against voting for someone because they are not here for two reasons
1)They may be legitimately unable to use a computer. That means that we are lynchng someone that can't post, can't defend themselves, or present any argument. In our case, by lynching an absentee, we have like a 4 or 5 in 18 chance of lynching mafia. By studying all the information we have available, we (hopefully) increase our chance of lynching mafia.
2)They could have forgotten to show up, which means we're lynching a person whose going to be replaced. Hopefully the replacee would add information and discussion to the game, as Jalyn has done.

[hollywoody1221]

Ahh, but if you're trying to draw attention to someone, then you find them suspicious, don't you?

[hollywoody1221]

Is this one of your reasons for FoS-ing DP, earlier, as it seems like he hasn't added much. At least not much that I liked.

[hollywoody1221]

I'd like to ask for the views of those who have seemingly 'disappeared' from the game
1) N9V
2) Rand Althor
3) Scotmany (obviously when he gets time, as he has said a number of times)
4) Spectrum Void (when he becomes unsick)
5) DP (business trip)
6) Cubsfan4ever

Simply because I haven't heard their opinions recently, we need an 'uptick' in voting, and I don't resort to voting to get someone to talk.

[hollywoody1221]

Cubsfan, I overlooked your post, and I couldn't remember any recent activity. My mistake. And sorry about the SV she thing, had nothing to base it on. I just assumed that most people playing mafia were guys. Probably a bit chauvinist of me, but I can't defend that.

[hollywoody1221]

Since it seems DP has the best intentions at heart, I am being forced to

unvote DragonPhoenix

, as a majority of people did not find his actions suspicious. I cannot disagree with the masses forever, so I will digress. I am going to remain unvoted right now, until further information comes up.

[hollywoody1221]

Seconded. Speaking without punctuation marks makes it nearly impossible to understand the true meaning of someone's statement. It's the difference between

Don't stop.

Don't, stop.
Your meaning becomes ambiguous, and you lose credibility.

[hollywoody1221]

Kinkster, for the love of god, please don't criticize someone else's spelling for 2 reasons
1) Misspelling a word is different from using incorrect grammar.
2) You misspelled, among other things:
A) grammer ('grammar')
B) srangers ('strangers')
I know what you mean, because it is in the middle of a word, but don't act as if you are the holiest and mightiest of us all. It is not personal, it's business. Right, DP?

[hollywoody1221]

I

vote kinkster

because he has been contradicting himself, been a complete whiner, and his appeal to our emotions, as most eloquently stated by panzerjager earlier.

[hollywoody1221]

Vote: kinkster

Didn't like his vote on DP at all. Nor his vote on Phoebus.

I don't think there's anything scummy about what TS did. Overtly pushing a wagon Day 1 is not what scum does. It's counter-productive.

My vote on phoebus in my opinion was justified his vote against mole purley on the basis that he dislikes him is suspicious.

nice way to introduce ureself to the game tho vitamin no real basis for your vote and no explanation other than I dont like it

fos : ViaminR

Ok so u did it to stir discussion and discussion is what ive continued I dont know u or mole couldnt careless if u dislike him or not fact of the matter ure now getting angry and agitated by my coments.

Also why would you defend VitaminR is he ure scum buddy ?

If he couldn't care less that Phoebus disliked mole for disliking him, how is he justified by doing the same thing? Actually, Phoebus already said most of this on post 200.

Then, around post 228, he states that he dislikes me for using the phrase 'allies'. I already talked about this in at least one of my posts, and don't wish to do it again.

Also, as in my first long post, I stated I was unsure of kinkster's scumminess merely because he was disagreeing with DP and phoebus, who I thought were scum. So, I've obviously changed my opinion. I still think there may be something with DP, phoebus, yosarian, primate; but it may be town trying to stick together, as they stated.

thats the most sensilble thing written over the last few pages, seems to me one or 2 are going out of there way to completley confuse matters with long unessesary posts not saying its scummy just in some respects unessessary.

as for my vote im unsure at the moment hollywood raised one or 2 half decent theories and if hes to be followed then DP looks a good bet , but he also made a few mistakes which throws some suspicion his way as well.

Im well aware that im on 4 and by not voting may throw further suspicion my way but im gonna hold until tomorrow when i can re read some of the posts

Firstly, he does not wait until tomorrow to cast his vote, but that's small potatoes. He says that I raise some decent theories, but contradicts himself by saying DP looks like a good bet. Then he states that he knows this will draw suspicion. By saying that, he hopes it won't, so he can stay safely anonymous. Then, in his next statement.

ok been back and reread the whole thread my suspicions still lie where they did id be very surprised if one of dp/phoebus wasnt scum if in fact both of them arnt

for now

vote cubsfan4ever

im not convinced on the ts bandwagon and cubs 5th vote on her isnt convincing me at the moment

So he says that DP most assuredly is not scum, and that phoebus, who was arguably very against kinkster, as seen numerous times, is also not scum.
Finally, I cannot stand reading his posts. They contain few grammatical punctuation, and it merely serves to make himself ambiguous.

[hollywoody1221]

I'm also going to have to place my vote, saying :

vote ToasterStrudel

. He, at the very least, was voting in association with Jalyn, seems too reckless, and is going after scotmany with particular vengeance. I don't want to go back and quote as it's midnight and I have school tomorrow, but he mentions scotmany as scum and recommends the vig. to 'fire a few bullets' at the scum. I found his lurking suspicious, but I doubt you have any foreknowledge about who is scum. And since it seems I was wrong about Primate (apologizes), I obviously can't believe in a scum quartet between the oldest players. Primate, if it's any condolence, I am going to reevaluate your posts for any thing that I can find.

[hollywoody1221]

unvote TS

I'm getting too much conflicting evidence. TS puts up some reasonably valid points in his defense, and VitaminR was very callous in his word choice.

[hollywoody1221]

TS mentions Scotmany's post as being 'too townie'. Now we all know that it can be misconstrued either way, but it does make one think. Then, he talks about how scum would want any bandwagon. Actually, now that I've reviewed it, I'm completely ok with my vote on him. I just hadn't had a chance to look over any of the posts, and didn't want to lynch someone unless I was fully in support of it.

vote ToasterStrudel

. Does anyone know what's with the Tiger thing?

[hollywoody1221]

Yeah, about a minute after I asked, I realized I had just woken up to April Fools Day. So far, it's the Establishment 1, Me 0.

[hollywoody1221]

Yes, Raffles, please explain why you're going against someone who, very recently, said that he didn't think you were scum. It seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot. Or, just giving yourself an alibi if TS turns out not to be scum.

[hollywoody1221]

Maybe he's trying a random vote on the second page?
But, Raffles, my intended purpose when saying you would be shooting yourself in the foot is this
1) I'm making the assumption that you're town, VitaminR is town, and that the people voting for you are misled.
2) I'm saying that having someone who very clearly states that they believe you not to be scum is a good thing, because it's one less person who will vote for you in a push-comes-to-shove situation.
3) If you accuse someone who believes you to be most definitely town, you're confusing people.
4) If VitaminR is scum, and I have no idea how likely that is, then he already knows that you're not scum, and wouldn't say it, unless he is trying to confuse people. I don't think he was trying to confuse people. If you are scum, he is trying to defend you, and hurting himself if you get lynched. Either way, it seems like you're hurting yourself by attacking a person who solidly defends your township.
So, I was merely pointing out that accusing someone who would not vote for you would be bad, as you already had one vote at the time. One vote isn't intimidating, but it could lead to a bandwagon.

[hollywoody1221]

Ok, Raffles, you have me convinced. I understand your point of view, and I accept that. I don't expect you to 'owe' him, I just didn't expect an attack immediately afterwords, and wanted the logic behind it. Also, TS's argument is not bad, its just that I can't see myself unvoting it right now, as his point of view is not the only one in the argument.

[hollywoody1221]

Scot, you couldn't have at least found an original argument to defend yourself? You laugh it off until Ancalagon comes to your rescue and delivers your defense himself. I'm still comfortable on TS, but I would echo the sentiments that you're definitely one of the more susceptible players.

[hollywoody1221]

So, Raffles, you also don't like that panzerjager thinks I'm scum without providing any reasoning whatsoever? A reason for voting me would have been nice panzerjager, other than trying to continue a potential bandwagon.

[hollywoody1221]

I like the logic, and I see the connection. I'm going to

vote Alex

for right now, but what happened to Rand Althor? He was on the mafiascum site, he just didn't post anything during the entire day 2. Lurk much?

[hollywoody1221]

unvote Alex

b/c there are too many lurkers right now that will be clouding my thoughts on anything.

[hollywoody1221]

Easy, my suspicions are far ranging, as there were 3 killed last night, so I don't want to bandwagon someone if I'm unsure about them. That way, if by some freak occurence, four people decide to jump on the alex bandwagon, it wouldn't lynch him, as I would have unvoted, and would have had time to consider any actions to take. But lurking is different from not voting, as some of these people have just not shown up at all.

[hollywoody1221]

So, did we lose posts that happened recently because of the server issues? or what is happening?

[hollywoody1221]

Sorry to not have posted often this day, but I've been unable to stay on for long periods of time, b/c of school and work. But, in regards to the point made against me, I was stating that with a bunch of lurkers not giving any input, I could not accurately judge what the dynamics of the game were, and could not give a vote that I am satisfied with now. And someone said earlier how if rand althor were scum, wouldn't his scumbuddies try and bail him out by suggesting alternate targets. But, by unvoting, it seems like you're trying to shift away the action from him. Not that I'm calling you scum, but it's somewhat suspicious, if you see what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure of what we should do, but a deadline doesn't help our cause, especially if we can't lynch scum. If we don't, we basically go into GG mode, so we need to step it up and find some scum. Any suggestions of what we should do?

[hollywoody1221]

Okay, first off, I'm not especially fond of a no-lynch vote, because we can accidentally vote off someone we need to not vote off. That's why I don't like people not posting, and why I'm not voting for Rand Althor right now. And I'm not really sure why Panzer has it in for me, but he doesn't seem to want to explain it yet, because I believe I asked him a few pages ago. I could understand why, I think, because it may be because I recommended the lynching of the triumvarate of DP, Primate, and TS; which turned out to be horribly wrong, on all 3 accounts. I had noticed some agreement between them that hadn't been shared between most, and incorrectly took it as a sign for something it wasn't.

[hollywoody1221]

It has to be more than half, doesn't it Mr. Flay? So I assume there would be no lynch, like panzer said. On the other note, no, just that 12 and 21 are my two favorite numbers. And Raffles, me and N9V didn't plan to have our posts within 4 minutes of each other. I assumed you were talking about me a little bit, and N9V did as well, I suppose. Coincidence, much. And Panzerjager, as soon as you get a single reason on why I'm scum, please tell us all.

[hollywoody1221]

Although I don't like to lynch inactive people, N9v was active in other games. This means that while he may have 'forgotten' about this game, it was possible that he was just lurking to avoid detection. Although I am not completely sure, I feel N9V warrants being hanged based on this, and his rather shaky defense of himself. Therefore, I

vote ~n9v~

[hollywoody1221]

Well, with the deadline in less than an hour, he was at lynch mode with the fourth vote on him. Just to let you know.