Death's Diner -Game Over-

[Rift Adrift]

Solid. let's start talking about the thread from 1330 then, since we're on the same page and you know what I'm up to.

Any of the reactions resonate with how you responded the last time you saw this?

pedit: I know I'm not, I'd just rather not have to show too much of what I'm doing for reasons.

ROFL GO AWAY SYRY AND I ARE HAVING A CONVERSATION.

Let me go look.

Also syry I just noticed that if you transitive property something you might pick up on a third person we can ignore.

This shit needs to stop. If I start going in some counterintuitive direction you can rescue me. Until then, shut the everliving fuck up.

[Rift Adrift]

Current Townreads (in no particular order and some are stronger than others):
Amrun
roflcopter
Zoidberg
Oriole
Slandaar
ConfTown Brain Trust (also sometimes known as "the circle jerk" or "those *expletives* people")
Ghostly Penguin
BROseidon
AA9

BRO, do you have any commentary on this townlist?

PEDIT DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE ME NOW BRO
DONT YOU FUCKING DO IT

[Rift Adrift]

How do you even have a read on ArcAngel? She has 7 posts, like two of them are RVS, two of them are prod acknowledgments and has said she'd post her thoughts twice without doing so. O_O

I've played with AA9 quite a few times now. I used to be terrible at reading her, but she's incredibly easy to figure out once you know how she plays. I'd like to see more from her certainly, but I'm happy enough with her to remove her from the lynch pool for the time being. Fery agrees.

[Rift Adrift]

Fferynough
(I'll try not to make anymore puns like that.)

Hey, if you don't mind getting your limbs hewn asunder, keep on! (She is a sight when angry, let me tell you)

[Rift Adrift]

I learned to read AA9 under the tutilage of scum-Nacho. So did Syr. Not a lesson I soon will forget.

[Rift Adrift]

Okay back had food.

Gonna ask you questions about a few of them. A few I can take for now but are subject to change over the next few days. First one to poke around is Zoidberg.

What do you like about Zoidberg? He refuses to engage with my flail, and when he quotes part of it he doesn't actually engage with it.

I didn't like who he was pushing at the time (you) but I liked the way he pushed because when people get pushed that way they tend to react in alignment indicative ways. I love having players like that in the game because I don't have to be an asshole. Other people can be assholes and I can reap the data.

But, I know from experience that being on the receiving end of really confbiased tunnel-visioned abrasive interrogation (or the scummy simulacrum o such) is annoying at best and deathwish-inducing at worst.

[Rift Adrift]

Other people can be assholes and I can reap the data.

[Rift Adrift]

What would engaging with it look like? And on a scale from Rach to Wisdom where would you put his reaction to your flail?

[Rift Adrift]

How do you even have a read on ArcAngel? She has 7 posts, like two of them are RVS, two of them are prod acknowledgments and has said she'd post her thoughts twice without doing so. O_O

Now, to all of us people who actually rely on playstyles rather than meta and the word of people telling us to shut up, a read on AA is still very premature.

[Rift Adrift]

Other people can be assholes and I can reap the data.

Damn you Syr. I'm going to have this mental image every time I drop into observation mode in a game thread FOREVER.

[Rift Adrift]

Wow, I love that scale.

Nobody reacted to it to the Wisdom level. Ffery, Amrun, and the circle-jerk all had some level of reaction, but all lacked followup (although ffery I'll give a pass because I was actively asking for you). Nobody pushed me to crumb further, and a few people notably outright ignored it and tried to push the convo elsewhere (p5, oriole both did this)

Zoidberg gave a near-Rach response. He quotes one of the erratic statements I made, and then calls it OMGUS, and what he quotes specifically is worrisome.

Your flail was impossile to miss but trusted you were right that Syr would be able to help sort things.

[Rift Adrift]

Yes lets put a lot of focus on this line of inqury.

Not.

[Rift Adrift]

Baezu (7) - Aunt Jemina, Slandaar, Metal Sonic, Oriole, Bro, RA, Amrun

Official obviously.

There is a severe lack of roflcopter and Ghostly on this wagon.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm willing to vote either EK or Baezu. I'd rather todays lynch be AJ or EK, though.

These are all three players I'm willing to lynch, though I would rather have more time to watch AJ in case I'm having an allergic reaction to her play style. EK is being replaced, so time to get a handle on her replacement is good.

[Rift Adrift]

yes

It was not completely clear of the alignment of the 5th person

he was known as the liar

, Sonic PM'ed the mod to ask if the liar is scum, MOD said yes, I confirmed this, for Sonic to do that as scum is quite... well I can't see him doing it.

I don't understand this bolded part. What does this mean? Is the 5th person BRO?

UNVOTE

[Rift Adrift]

really the only non bro lynch i'm even considering at this point is obvscum elvis

let's talk about elvis vs baezu.

BRO looks town as fuck to me. I am not following Slandaar's reasoning but maybe it's severe lack of caffeine.

[Rift Adrift]

Let's also talk about AJ. Rofl what do you make of her?

[Rift Adrift]

I feel distinctly ignored, AJ is also town.

I'm not ignoring you. Right now, your lynch priorities and mine don't line up very well. :/

What makes you feel AJ is town?

[Rift Adrift]

@RA, Who were the inital members of your

artifical

town bloc again?

Remember that post where you accused me of discrediting you?

[Rift Adrift]

Amazing how you dodge the question. Your town block is indeed artifical when you have no way of confirming who is town at this stage in the game. Likely town yes. Certain town no.

Your block was TD, Amrun, Rofl, Bro. Amazing how two of the cops are on that wagon.

Amazing how 4 of the cops are probably town.

I'm usually pretty good at putting together town blocs.

[Rift Adrift]

Actually not probably. Almost certainly. The chances of this being a gambit are nil.

[Rift Adrift]

Amazing how you dodge the question. Your town block is indeed artifical when you have no way of confirming who is town at this stage in the game. Likely town yes. Certain town no.

Your block was TD, Amrun, Rofl, Bro. Amazing how two of the cops are on that wagon.

Amazing how 4 of the cops are probably town.

I'm usually pretty good at putting together town blocs.

It's easy to put together a town block with the cops when your scum partner tells you they are in the deathy in advance.

[Rift Adrift]

Amazing how you dodge the question. Your town block is indeed artifical when you have no way of confirming who is town at this stage in the game. Likely town yes. Certain town no.

Your block was TD, Amrun, Rofl, Bro. Amazing how two of the cops are on that wagon.

Amazing how 4 of the cops are probably town.

I'm usually pretty good at putting together town blocs.

It's easy to put together a town block with the cops when your scum partner tells you they are in the deathy in advance.

At least this isn't the burden of proficiency crap I usually get to deal with.

[Rift Adrift]

This sums up rift for me; metametametametametametameta. Lots of noise not much point to it though. You say someone is town because meta? doesn't mean anything to me. You say Y is scum due to meta? doesn't mean anything to me.

Plus the meta they 'used' on me was backwards so that doesn't help their cause. Which is still unexplained btw, If you two could finally explain this magical conclusion you came to because it still seems completely baseless to me.

Syr meta --> slandaar tunnels as town, something I don't recall or wasn't enumerated about your play up to the point of unvoting titus looking like your scum game.
fferyllt trajectory freak out --> what the fuck was that unvote about? I don't see anything to prompt that?

[Rift Adrift]

@RA, You ignored my question. Even if we don't lynch within the deathy, I want to know who you find as likely scum within the deathy.

I didn't answer because I'm still evaluating it. MS is my least sure read of that group. I've had BRO solid town and I'm stripping gears trying to reevaluate that. This game is not going to be my priority for the next few hours, but analyzing MS' posts so far and rethinking BRO are my priorities.

One thing that bothers me from what I've gathered so far is that it seems like Zoidberg hit exactly the right buttons for cop-mason paranoia to boil over when it did. Which makes me rethink my townish read on him.

[Rift Adrift]

One thing that bothers me from what I've gathered so far is that it seems like Zoidberg hit exactly the right buttons for cop-mason paranoia to boil over when it did. Which makes me rethink my townish read on him.

i don't want to admit it but this is a pretty good point anti-bro sentiment had been building steam for a little while in the qt and was coming to a head. if scum have daytalk etc etc

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to admit it?

[Rift Adrift]

So, we're thinking scum team could include MS and Zoidberg.

I want to think on it some more, but a Zoidberg lynch might shed some light on the cop-masons without lynching from within that group and potentially kill confirmable town.

Amrun? Oriole?: Rofl? thoughts?

[Rift Adrift]

Oh, I'd never heard of dethy but I see why that works, now.

STILL seems pretty over-powered in my opinion. We have 4 cops that will eventually be able to confirm themselves.

UNVOTE: while I ponder this

What do you think of this, RA?

I'd choose both BRO and Ghostly as scum before MS in the dethy.

I'm probably being over-stubborn about an early town read, but I swear lately every time I retract one I am fucking wrong.

What makes you think Ghostlin over MS?

I'm feeling really good about Slandaar as town because of how chaotic his posts outing this stuff were.

[Rift Adrift]

Amazing how you dodge the question. Your town block is indeed artifical when you have no way of confirming who is town at this stage in the game. Likely town yes. Certain town no.

Your block was TD, Amrun, Rofl, Bro. Amazing how two of the cops are on that wagon.

Amazing how 4 of the cops are probably town.

I'm usually pretty good at putting together town blocs.

It's easy to put together a town block with the cops when your scum partner tells you they are in the deathy in advance.

Holy confirmation bias, Batman!

Considering that choosing a random set of four players in this game, hitting a cop is one in four, hitting two is entirely possible if a touch difficult.

This is like a psychotic version of gamblers fallacy.

This is true, but it's not even random chance that 2 cops would wind up in my townpile. Behaviorally, town-aligned cops tend to town it up because not being prematurely outed and getting off investigations is pro-role and that motivation drives posting behavior. Bro towning it up and then coasting does kinda fit that profile in that being seen as town and not drawing too much attention are competing needs.

[Rift Adrift]

Still waiting to hear from someone who wants to explain why Ghostly Penguin are scum.

[Rift Adrift]

rofl is town as fuck. TD you're making me sad.

[Rift Adrift]

Fuck isn't town, fuck is a night action .

No day fucks?

That's even sadder.

[Rift Adrift]

BRO is scum.

'Oh look I made a disaster' uh good job? there was already a Baezu wagon who was already clearly scum what was the point what has been achieved? He did not purposefully cause said 'disaster' I mean its just nonsense and said disaster did nothing useful he was just caught.

Current Townreads (in no particular order and some are stronger than others):
Amrun

roflcopter

Zoidberg

Oriole

Slandaar

ConfTown Brain Trust (also sometimes known as "the circle jerk" or "those *expletives* people")
Ghostly Penguin
BROseidon

AA9

He loves this scale? Makes sense (Read: No it does not)

Softclaim etc.

Broscum lynch value is much much higher than Baezu; Everyone get back on this wagon. Baezu can go tomorrow.

VOTE: BRO

In fact I have had enough

These 5
Me
Rofl
Bro
Ghost
Sonic

One is scum and 4 town of varying cop sanities with a qt and daychat.

Bro is the scum, when he is lynched the rest of us are conftown hence the value of the lynch.

Why isn't it Sonic? perhaps you debate this? He pmed the mod about the alignment of the as we knew it liar and mod told him scum; this makes him town alone. I have confirmed this myself. I very highly doubt he does this as scum.

Why did you claim Sland? Well scum already know about us so it doesn't make much difference except for the fact now the whole town does too.

Lynch BRO.

This is pretty convincing evidence imo.

Bro today, elvis tomorrow.

VOTE: BROseidon

And we're not lynching this because...?

[Rift Adrift]

Baezu-PV-Zoid-Rofl

<3

[Rift Adrift]

I don't even know where my vote is any more. hold on.

[Rift Adrift]

Yeah putting it back.

VOTE: Baezu

[Rift Adrift]

Rift, explain to me why lynching outside dethy is better?

Because we have a lot of potential confirmed town in that group if we can sort them.

[Rift Adrift]

hey guys lets talk about baezu and if we should lynch him today

Ok. Should we lynch her?


Also, roughly 95% of the time Rift is not a he.

[Rift Adrift]

@Zoidberg,

question for you.

What are your thoughts about Aunt Jemima?

[Rift Adrift]

Both are true. The fact that there are this many people questioning it is seriously making me want to jump through the internet and yell at all of you IRL, because you all can't actually be scum, but it's hard for me to believe that people are that terrible at game theory.\

Like, any defense about why I am not scum is completely irrelevant because I will literally be sorted out anyways. It is a waste of town's time to discuss anything in the Dethy until we have investigative results. Most of the attack against me has been "He's been lurking" WHEN I FUCKING GOT PRODDED BECAUSE I DIDN'T GO V/LA WHEN I SHOULD HAVE.

Also, rofl's point about the timing of Zoidberg's attack on me is very good. rofl had called me scum a few days before the attack, but Slandaar called me scum 11 minutes before Zoidberg started the push against me.

That was my point first.

After Slandaar's series of posts about the dethy, zoidberg's posts were looking a lot like intentional dethy pot-stirring. Town needs to lynch Zoidberg's ass tomorrow. If not tomorrow then the instant you flip if town or are otherwise confirmed.

[Rift Adrift]

no bullshit aj just slipped not knowing what is being discussed in the cop qt which is a townslip if the scum know what is being discussed there (which is the assumption we're under)

Good to know. It might blow a hole in a theory I've been mulling over today.

[Rift Adrift]

did Rift ever look at the Stubbs meta one can only wonder

When stubbs told me there was a new completed game I had a look, but I was already in discussion with Syr about moving our vote by then. We stayed on Stubbs a little longer than I personally liked, but hydras have to compromise occasionally. If you ISO this account you should be able to figure out when/where my stance started to soften.

And we think you are dead wrong about Bro, btw.

[Rift Adrift]

Soooo Rift you like to talk to people I have noticed so let us talk.

Baezu who looked certain to be lynched just put in a fair amount of effort which honestly she would think as scum would be ultimately pointless.

Kind of contradicts her earlier posting of scum who can't be bothered and putting no effort in.

What do you think?

We've been discussing her today-posts. What we have so far:

1778 - hell of an AtE. I want to do a quick meta for similar outbursts and similar comments about always being mistaken for scum when she's town.

The reads are just sorta random looking quotes with a bit of disjoint commentary, i.e. they look bad, and they also look like rehashes of what has been said by others. But, if scum putting anything out there at all would be risky if she's not good at laying down false associations.

[Rift Adrift]

Yes the content itself isn't good, but the idea behind it is that to post so much in such a situation contradicts her earlier mentality; it doesn't make sense to start posting lots at L-1 as scum when I am not even voting her for example; if she wanted to look town she had many opportunities earlier in the day to do so when the content had a point to it.

Kind of looks like town to me who is posting their reads and trying to be useful in death.

Which is hard for me to admit. I hate being wrong.

I'm more of a softie than Syr is. And we both think Zoidberg is scum, so I kinda want to move our vote in that direction.

Don't particularly like being on a wagon that AJ is so happy about either. :/

[Rift Adrift]

That last paragraph sounds like an awesome fencesitter RA.

It's called transparency of thought process. hth.

[Rift Adrift]

@Xiao, would you be ok with Zoidberg?

I figure with you me, TD, Slandaar, Stubbs, Baezu, Ghostly that's 7 with the momentum on our side, so AJ would have to vote with us on Zoidberg (or be outed as scum), then we'd just need one more.

And who could that one more possibly be.

[Rift Adrift]

@Xiao, would you be ok with Zoidberg?

I figure with you me, TD, Slandaar, Stubbs, Baezu, Ghostly that's 7 with the momentum on our side, so AJ would have to vote with us on Zoidberg (or be outed as scum), then we'd just need one more.

And who could that one more possibly be.

Good Question.

Rift, Can you give a straight answer. Do you think Baezu is town or scum at present?

We're arguing about it, so you can hold your damn horses till we're done.

[Rift Adrift]

Ok. After much arguing, metadiving, swearing, and general fuckery, we have come to the conclusion Baezu is town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zoidberg

[Rift Adrift]

Thumbnail of metadive results: AtE is a feature of her town game, not seen when she was scum in the 3 games we scanned. As town she looks hesitant and unsure. As scum, she looks comfortable and confident by comparison. Cases actually look more coherent when scum, too.

[Rift Adrift]

Baezu, bro, or bust! Baezu, bro, or bust!

Now vote Zoidberg.

[Rift Adrift]

Sigh... Okay, I guess we have to do this the hard way.

Tell me why you're so set on Baezu or BRO, and I'll tell you why you're wrong and you can vote Zoidberg.

[Rift Adrift]

Because I feel confident that both of them will flip scum, and that this means that Zoidberg is town.

Why, on all three counts?

[Rift Adrift]

And for that bloody matter what on earth does Zoidbergs alignment have anything to do with either Baezu or BRO?

[Rift Adrift]

I find it very unlikely that Zoidberg and bro are scum together

Why?

very unlikely that bro is town.

Why?

[Rift Adrift]

Literally, can't you read my posts? :/ I've made a ton of posts about it and I don't want to wall on my phone.

Going through your last 100ish posts, your arguments, such as they are, consist of:

Baezu: I don't like her content, and she's lurky!
BRO: OMG he's scum, and I don't like his defense of himself!

So yes, I can read, and no, you haven't been very specific. Make cliff notes. You can make a fullcase later. And you're still wrong about lynching inside the dethy.

[Rift Adrift]

I have literally said the opposite of what you just said, though: Baezu is not scum for lurking. Baezu is scum for the things (s)he has posted, which I find scummy. Her newest reads list was the least terrible thing she has posted, but I still didn't find it terribly internally consistent, or like that it took L-1 levels of pressure for her to produce. I want to analyze it a bit better when not limited access. Why are you ignoring the biggest reason for Baezu scum, her initial catch up and posts about elvis? It's pretty significant. I found that really scummy.

Ironically enough, it was that reads list that convinced both fery and myself that Baezu is town. (And the fuckawful AtE right before). It's terrible. I wanted her dead for it. Fery convinces me to take a look at some of her completed games just to make sure this is scum behavior. And dear merciful God, it cannot be more obvious that Baezu is as town as town Baezu gets. It's pretty apparent that she has no fucking clue what's going on here (and that in and of itself is a towntell). Pretty sure we explained this.

As for the initial catchup and elvis posts, they're very sheepy. Super poorly explained, even more poorly justified. However, in the light of recent meta, it's pretty obvious she's fucking lost and sheeping whatever the hell reads she agrees with. Originally I construed it from scum going with the flow, but after looking at her scumgames it's pretty goddamn obvious that's not what she does as scum. I misread her, and you are too.

Broseidon I've pretty clearly articulated. My scumread on him formed, in REAL TIME, over the course of discussing things with him. I liked Zoidberg's case on Bro related to the vote parking, but his response to that case was far scummier than that. He used very bizarre defenses, such as "I didn't mention my lurker vote much because I am lurking, duh," amongst other things that are smack-me-across the face scummy. In addition, he is in a group of five players that are four town reads + him, with one mod-confirmed scum.

Zoidberg's case was "BRO hasn't done shit", or, more simply, "BRO is a lurker". That's a shitty case. Furthermore, BRO's reaction was "Well no shit, I'm lurking". Hmm, can't imagine why he'd have that reaction to Zoidberg's case. Did he flail a hell of a lot? Yup. Is that scummy for BRO, given the knowledge (now) that he's probably a cop? Nope. Again, see JobPick. Or hell, see him in Xenoblade, where he was scum. Either will show you what I mean. Not only that, but when BRO felt threatened, what did he do? He

deliberately crumbed his role and dethy results.

Yes, he did. He crumbed them to me specifically. I didn't figure it out about the dethy specifically since I've never even heard of it until now (and it's dumb, you should be ashamed of yourself 4nxi3ty), but I got the gist: here's these people (namely rofl and Slandaar I believe he was referring to), I know they're town, don't fuck with them. Why in the name of seven fucks would scum-BRO go so far out of his way to crumb that information to me? The info was confirmed by Slandaar when he outed the dethy to the world.

So no, BRO isn't scum.

Zoidberg is not scum with broseidon because of how his (good) case brought the game to a head and really put the limelight on bro.

His good case was shit. It also, fascinatingly, timed with BRO suspicion coming to a head in the QT, something that

no townie could possibly have known about when he posted

.

[Rift Adrift]

Who is defending him without reason?

Me, I think -- because saying I think he's town and can't possibly be scum with bro is "without reason," apparently.


Rift Adrift:

Why do you think that's how Broseidon would have handled the "crumb" had he been town? I noticed the crumb, didn't know what it meant, but I found it really weird that he appealed to you specifically, as if he wanted a strong player to whiteknight for him.

Syr may also want to tackle answering this because it wasn't Rift that BRO appealed to, it was Syr. I don't think it had to do with wanting a strong player. I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

Four other players knew he was in the dethy. Why would he be more likely to flail and crumb as town than as scum? That doesn't make sense.

If he's town and the dethy interactions have gone toxic or paranoid then doing something about the situation would be paramount. I don't understand why flail conspicuously and crumb it vs just outing it, though. Scum would already know about the dethy due to confirmation-period QT even if there is no day chat in this game. No day chat is something Syr doubts due to having played played at least one other game that 4nxiety modded.

Also your excuse for him lurking, that he's a cop of some sort, is RIDICULOUSLY bad. Other people already know he's in a dethy! Probably scum already knew, if he's not scum himself! What do you think lurking was going to accomplish? Wtf.

Scum probably already knowing is a good point. This is my first game with a dethy so I'm not really sure how to imagine dethy players should play in-thread.

In short, I found that whole thing silly and pretty manipulative.

For me, the emphasis is on silly, and I'm leaning on Syr's prior experience with BRO to sort him. Before the dethy-related stuff, I had him as town based on his early day 1 play and on his sticking up for them when his town reads (and as it turns out some dethy mates) come under fire. I might have flipped that read if he hadn't made a direct appeal to Syr via me, though. That to me screamed PR in distress.

[Rift Adrift]

I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

I just don't understand why this is compelling. A player that can recognize the parallels could easily have purposely created them himself.

It's a type of gambit I haven't seen BRO attempt in other games we've played. You, Syr and I basically read those posts from three different perspectives. My reaction was PR in distress, and I got a little pissed at the amount of attention his flail was drawing and the fact that nobody else apparently was seeing it as PR flail. Syr got the subtext and read the crumbs accurately. And you saw it as scum flail.

Syr is correct about the crumbs and the subtext.

And you and I, being self-assured about our own reads (not to mention stubborn about them) disagree about the nature of the flail.

[Rift Adrift]

And you and I, being self-assured about our own reads (not to mention stubborn about them) disagree about the nature of the flail.

Any argument about flail is a bad argument.

Why was he flailing in the first place

if his goal was to cause a disaster in the thread by playing scummy

? that is what you are suggesting happened, yes? or was the flail faked?

I don't understand why the bolded is in that sentence. Why do you think that was his goal? Because that is not what I'm suggesting happened and I don't really see how you got there from what I've posted this morning.

I don't think the flail was faked.

[Rift Adrift]

I don't understand why the bolded is in that sentence. Why do you think that was his goal? Because that is not what I'm suggesting happened and I don't really see how you got there from what I've posted this morning.

I don't think the flail was faked.

That is the impression I got from him.

To have breadcrumbed whatever he did he must have been thinking rationally to copy whatever he did in game X, hence it is quite deliberate play. I thought everyone realised that. I thought the town argument was he deliberately played scummy to cause the disaster to get reactions and info, instead you are saying he just is scum who on the fly tried to mimic his town meta.

Well that is good.

Syr will need to clarify this, but I think the breadmcrumbing was separate from the jobpick game subtext in his mind.

Basically my contribution to it all was that once you made your posts about the dethy, Zoidberg's earlier posts suddenly looked opportunistic in timing and in content, which flipped the everloving fuck out of my read on him.

Before that, I think the main reason I eventually had him as town was because he seemed to be thinking like a few of my town reads as well as liking the way he went about scumhunting Stubbs (irrespective of whether he was right about Stubbs, it looked like real scumhunting to me. Those town reads as it happens are part of the dethys group. If he's scum, I'm going to be insufferable about how crazy-good my reads have been so far given what the dethys knowledge was doing to the game state.

[Rift Adrift]

Here is the order of things:

rofl scumreads me in QT. A few days later, Slandaar also scumreads me. Right after Slandaar suggest that I'm scum, Zoidberg attacks me. Then entire QT scumreads me.

This would suggest that the Zoidberg suggesting Bro scum is a manipulation by one of the members in the deathy. Slandaar's statements could have been a trigger but it's more likely the scum gave Zoidberg a cue word.

Mod: Is the scum player allowed to share the link to the deathy QT with the other scums?

You seem to be assuming no scum day-talk here.

I wouldn't assume that. Syr says that in a prior 4nxiety game scum did have day talk in their QT.

[Rift Adrift]

unvote, vote: zoidberg

Rofl

Explain it to me

I thought you were on my side :'(

But in other news... I like baezu's new content. Well, fuck.

VOTE: aunt jemima

You are an evil temptress.

[Rift Adrift]

Vote Aunt Jemima

[Rift Adrift]

I'd much prefer Zoidberg to AJ, although I'll vote AJ if I really have to.

The timing of his attack on me in the main thread being in perfect lockstep with Slandaar's attack of me in the QT was ridiculous. Like, let's look at this post:

Found me some scum.

VOTE: BROseidon

Dude has had his vote parked on EddieFenix for ~40 pages now. His stated reasons for voting Eddie are that "he was scum with varsoon and should know better that this is not varsoon's scumgame"

After parking his vote, Bro simply stops mentioning eddie save for one or two token mentions, e.g. 1009. No pushing, no probing, he certainly never tries to engage with Eddie. This is indicative of scum who's trying to stay out of the spotlight, since votes attract attention. He's trying to slip by, commenting on things without ever really committing, i.e. "Yeah I'd be fine with XYZ lynch" or "No, this is ABC's town game" but never offering deep analysis or insight.

This is a case. It does not involve interaction or engagement with me in any way. He doesn't try to discern my alignment, he's attacks me with certainty. Even the way he starts, "found me some scum," implies that this case was a sudden realization, and not one supported by any trajectory. No "I suspect you, let me ask questions," but just a "let me get you lynched now."

Right. After. Slandaar. Scumread. Me.

The fact that Amrun completely ignores this and continues to insist that Zoid is town and I am the scum despite the read materializing out of nowhere being turned into a full-push for my lynch is incredibly suspect as well.

I am so fucking torn between these two wagons. Syr and I will discuss when he's online again.

[Rift Adrift]

Still waiting to hear from someone who wants to explain why Ghostly Penguin are scum.

Your early reads did, until they morphed to town.

Spoiler: Rift reads on Ghostlin

Players of concern.

Stubbs - lack of scumhunting, followy

Titus - scummy for all the earlier reasons and I want to pick this back up for further discussion on day 2.

Radioactive Wolf - dire lack of content

Zoidberg - he's been called out for excessive politeness. Syr adds excessive reasonableness. fferyllt adds the bizarrity of calling out something that was clearly outside the current game (offer to hydra) as buddying when our slot (fferyllt specifically) has with great deliberateness, forethought and a complete lack of apology, done a metric fuckton of game-related buddying.

Baezu - dire lack of content, hedging

Ghostlin - No scumhunting, near-dire lack of content

Slandaar has been upgraded to leaning town, but IGMEOY

So that's six people we got on our shitlist right now. That's a lot of fucking people for a 19 player game. So either get your shit in gear and start obvtowning to us (if you're town), or we're going to lynch the fuck out of you.

You don't not post, either head of you, for 24ish hours and then just go 'lol, our posts are now scummier with age' and 'Zoidberg is now null/town' without some sort of explanation.

We appreciate you claiming scum, Ghostlin.

Last thing and then I'll leave this thread alone. JarJar, RD called you out for the fact that your read progressed in a non-Rift direction to a Rift direction in 24 hours without a previous mention of Rift in your ISO. Why do you think Rift is scum; and why haven't you mentioned it before?

We also appreciate you parroting our point.

You don't not post, either head of you, for 24ish hours and then just go 'lol, our posts are now scummier with age' and 'Zoidberg is now null/town' without some sort of explanation.

We appreciate you claiming scum, Ghostlin.

Last thing and then I'll leave this thread alone. JarJar, RD called you out for the fact that your read progressed in a non-Rift direction to a Rift direction in 24 hours without a previous mention of Rift in your ISO. Why do you think Rift is scum; and why haven't you mentioned it before?

We also appreciate you parroting our point.

Point one: You post about three people posting a 'dire lack of content' (your words, not ours), and then announce a change in your reads that I think is relatively major and make cute comments about being scummier in the last 24 hours for JM. You even admit you were absent without any provocation.

To quote Gozaburo from the Yu-Gi-Oh abridged series: "Ring. Ring. Hi, Pot, this is Kettle. I called you to say I think you're black..."

I'm not even saying you're scummy. I'm saying you're a hypocrite right now. Hypocrisy is not necessarily scummy, but it's not attractive or fucking intelligent as either alignment.

Point two: I didn't take your word for it, I actually did check to see if JM had mentioned you. If he/they had, I would of called you out for bitching without a point. I'm much more interested in his flip, like your flip on Zoidberg. Actually knowing where your suspicions are going is pretty damn golden to me.

fferyllt here. I took a self-imposed time-out from the thread because I was otherwise going to continue our slapfight with Jabarkus, which was not contributing anything to advancing the game. But, 24 hours without some indication of where my thoughts currently lie is something I'm not comfortable doing in a majority-driven lynch environment. Game pace can be unpredictable.

I don't really see what it is that you feel is hypocritical about my three posts, though. I updated a summary reads post, and responded to a vote that doesn't make any sense to me by pointing up why it doesn't make sense.

Orry (oriole) is sweet.

Yes. We're liking oriole but would like more content/participation.

Slandy is slightly-sweet. His unvote on Tussy has me slightly worried, but I still see his overall play as town, especially for having votes in line with my own reasoning at the time.

I agree about his early play and unvote. And I mostly agree about his overall play. But, he started to slip scumward again IMO starting with post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5171944 and going on for his next few posts after that. Calling Stubbs town for maiking contextless posts doesn't add up IMO.

Jabarky is slightly sweet.

He's town. Sweet is a matter of taste. People can be town and wrong about stuff. I think he's got several things wrong.

Deathy (TiphaineDeath) has become a solid sweetread.

TD is rocking this game. One of my strongest town reads.

I have a very slight sweet-read on Grinny, but I need to check on a few things to be sure.
Similarly, Angel is a very slight sweet-read.

Peregrine? He hasn''t contributed enough to be anything other than null IMO.

It took me a while to decide for sure. I had Zoidy as mildly town and rofl as potentially-sour, but the more I read, the more that has been reversed. I have rofl has slightly-sweet, and Zoidy as sligtly sour.

Zoidberg is leaning town IMO. I like how he pushes people to proved rationales and reasons for their votes and stances. Rofl's a town read. His style is terse, but his content is good.

Bazzy (Baezu) is sour

.
Agree.

I had Tussy (Titus) as sour, but the Deathy-exchange along with the claim that this is Tussy's town meta is enough to reverse that read; I currently have a very slight sweet-read.

Titus still bothers me and overall I am leaning scum still. The thing about him that looks most town is that since his partial claim/sort-of confirmation from TD, he gets highly offended by people who aren't town reading him or disagree with him. The offended vibe actually does look pretty town.

I have been going back and forth on Ammy (Amrun). For the first eight pages, it was a slightly-sour read, but the exchange on page nine with Rifty Drifty left me with a mildly sweet-read. However, her actions relating to Tussy and Deathy have thrown this into doubt again. But 665 pushes it

very

slightly into sweet.

Amrun is a strong town read. I see town motivation in nearly every interaction she's engaged in so far.

Rifty Drifty is not giving me many sweet-vibes (the first being on page 9), and that has me worried that they're scum. Syrry and Ffery, I would love to be talked into thinking you're sweet; can you help me?

I did a mental reset over the weekend. Usually my resets are because I think my reads are off. This time, I think my reads are fine, but I've had some really strong personality conflicts with a player or two and continuing those interactions weren't helping my idata-gathering or the overall game state.

Ghosty is also giving me mild sour-vibes as well.

We're not liking Ghostln/penguin though I think it's all or mostly been Ghostlin so far. Syr thinks his posts to me last night have a feel of fake posturing about them.

I did not like Eddie's list in 391 at all, either, and 562 is even worse.

I am not going to try to read Eddie on what he's laid down in the thread so far. It will take more content from him before I'm ready to opine about his alignment.

I am a bit weary of Brossy. (BROseidon.) Everything rational says he is town. However, for some reason, my old-lady's instinct is telling me not to trust this. To translate, he is one of my strongest townreads by logic, but by gut is somehow rubbing me wrong.

I know that feeling. But, I think he's town.

I'm liking Stubby for town, and therefore find the amount of votes on him disturbing. In fact,

StubbsKVM (6) - oriole, Zoidberg, TiphaineDeath, Rift Adrift, Metal Sonic, Amrun

Orry has been V/LA, and has admitted the Stubby vote is obsolete. Deathy is town who legitimately thinks there is a case. But I

do

not

like any of the other names present, least of all, Rifty Drifty.

This is where I think some meta might be useful. This is a town game that I meta'd for another game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go He replaced into that game, so therefore his early posts had strong content. But, compare the quality of the observations and lines of questioning in that game to his stances and lines of questioning in this game. His play in this game feels shallow and perfunctory to me.

It is difficult to be certain, but I have knitty (elvis) as sweet. Knitty's posts get stronger as she gets further into the thread, bringing up many valid points to think about.

Elvis is playing a distant game for the most part. commentary rather than interaction. I don't have her as a town read right now.

Our lynch for today should be Bazzy. I firmly believe this to be Bazzy's scum play.

We agree that Baezu looks bad, and is looking worse over time. When we last put our vote down, he was a player we considered. Given his recent posts, I can see the argument for lynching him and would consider that wagon but only if we had to give up on Stubbs today. We feel pretty strongly that our vote is in the right place now.

Even if Rofl is "playing by his gut" evidence of his thought pattern beyond, this lynch isn't getting off should be present. Instead, it's all about getting on trains for town cred. Hurry and lynch this guy.

Progression of reads shows ROFL incredibly town, if more terse than some players in this game.

To quote TD: "Try again."

I'm liking you for town better all the time.

Syr and I need to do a synch I think.

I got bad vibes from some of the posts, but can't tell if it's head specfic.
1207
1221
1244

Still a weak townread, but constant vigilance.

Yes, our reads have developed and for the most part I believe the changes are documented in our posts. Pretty sure this read change was discussed. Specifically what changed my read of Ghostly Penguin were some protracted, negative and above all substantive interactions that Ghostlin initiated with me.

[Rift Adrift]

pere every investigation we spend within the dethy is one less useful result we can leave behind on someone who will outlive us all

Then just random targets please.

Otherwise, we will have a bunch of WIFOM garbage in the thread which will not help town one bit. It will actually hurt us, since there is no baseline until your dead. Then your not a cop anymore, you're just dead town.

I don't know if it's optimal strategy, but the MS Wiki documents

a

strategy for dethys. I'm interested to see what these guys come up with. Might very well be better than the wiki suggestion.

[Rift Adrift]

@titus, we should get everyone to vote zoidberg, or baezu, ASAP.

Our virtual vote is on Zoidberg. I wanted to talk with Syr before physically changing it.

If the clock is running out, I'll vote without a synch.

[Rift Adrift]

Meh. 2 and a half days.

[Rift Adrift]

synch achieved.

VOTE: Zoidberg

baizu is not a lynch option in our opinion.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm not happy with this, honestly. I'd rather lynch AJ. Or EK, but we're giving them a pass because...alt and lurker. No, seriously, that's all I can figure out. I'd be more pissed if we no lynched. So, in the spirit of that:

Unvote.

Vote: Zoidberg

This puts him at L-1. I'd like it if no more votes, please so he can offer a claim and defense, like Baezu got. Which by the way, was also a sub-optimal lynch.

Fine, if you're all so convinced then everyone investigate bro tonight instead of rofl, see if I care.

How about you stop directing members of the Dethy?

What nonsensical reads?

Slandaar, AJ has been using the argument, "so and so is town/scum because I have meta that says so" since her first post in this game.

Which, I suppose would be fine if she could continue that thought with, "where they acted in this way, and they flipped Town/Scum there."

That doesn't make them nonsensical that makes them unexplained. I find her explanation for not explaining them fully reasonable enough. I mean its terrible and why I dislike ALTs but when someone is on an Alt they will have meta and won't want to share incase people figure out who they are so it DOES make sense.

No, it fucking doesn't.

Your reasoning is terrible, any scum can say 'LOL, I'm on an alt' and justify any number of sins. That's even worse than 'because, meta'.

How has this site's meta gotten so crappy that we let off a power lurker who places her vote on a lurker when she called trying to lynch lurkers scummy in the most hypocritical way in a mafia game ever, stirred up shit and left AND are letting Syrup Lady who can't defend her positions except by stalling, saying 'LOL, I'm on an ALT' and 'because, meta'.

SHE CAN GIVE META READS BY CITING SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR. WHY ARE YOU FUCKING LETTING HER GET AWAY WITH THIS?!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

<3

Ghostly Penguin joins rofl and oriole in my town as fuck pile.

[Rift Adrift]

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-09 10:28:34)

^^This is the important thing to keep in mind.

[Rift Adrift]

There is probably still time to post your reads and stuff Zoidberg. Go for it plz.

[Rift Adrift]

@RA, You ignored my question. Even if we don't lynch within the deathy, I want to know who you find as likely scum within the deathy.

I didn't answer because I'm still evaluating it. MS is my least sure read of that group. I've had BRO solid town and I'm stripping gears trying to reevaluate that. This game is not going to be my priority for the next few hours, but analyzing MS' posts so far and rethinking BRO are my priorities.

One thing that bothers me from what I've gathered so far is that it seems like Zoidberg hit exactly the right buttons for cop-mason paranoia to boil over when it did.

Which makes me rethink my townish read on him.

Color me smug.

[Rift Adrift]

Ok, there are only two possible scenarios here.

1) The killer targeted Xiao.

2) The killer targeted TD AND TD's killer was healed.


1 and 2 could theoretically both exist.

It's time for me to do a partial role claim.

My role is ________________ ___________ with the Gunpowder Cake. I bombed the living crap out of TD day 1. He mistook that as being shot to death. I dropped hints directly by saying things like "Make your head go boom!" I still have another half to my role, which I may or may not disclose at will.

TD got confused and thought he was blown up. To which I just :facepalmed:.

So your "bombing" TD on day 1 meant that he would kill the person who targeted him for a kill?

[Rift Adrift]

Amrun that hammer was scummy as fuck btw.

[Rift Adrift]

Consensus is the Dethy QT is to lynch the fuck out of the Elvis slot. We also didn't come up with if we are going to claim in order, and we've lost our day chat, so...

QT people: Should we Condorcet-vote for claim order, or just all claim?

Also, FUCK YOU EVERYBODY ZOIDBERG FLIPPED SCUM YOU ASSHOLES.

I'm hurt. Truly hurt.

We'll probably vote with you guys. We're still not very happy with AJ.

[Rift Adrift]

Also, we targeted different people because of paranoia regarding scum having a way to mess with our results. None of us stated in QT who our targets were, so I only know my result.

Which is?

Let them fucking talk it out in the thread and decide what they're going to share.

[Rift Adrift]

Deadline + bad response from Zoidberg = lynch. It was pretty arbitrary who hammered. No other lynch was happening. His response was poor enough to make me doubt my read on him but to be perfectly honest I expected to be using his town up to power lunch broseidon today.

No claim, Zoid?

No posts after saying, "I had a bunch of catch up posts?"

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit I was probably fucking wrong.

bye bye.

VOTE: zoid

[Rift Adrift]

Amrun, read my first post. We never decided on a claim order.

RA: AJ was an obvious attempt to counter-wagon Zoidberg.

AJ was also obviously almost a mirror image stance-wise to Zoidberg. he sucked up to the Dethy. She sucked up to Tiphaine/Xaio/Titus

Everyone else mostly milled around somewhere in the middle until the dethy was made public.

[Rift Adrift]

I was playing it on the fly Amrun. My plan to use it was always to attach it to a pro-town player to get a scum flip. Besides, you've never heard of my role (because I'm just that big of a bastard), yet you presume to tell me how to play it? Really?

I'm leery about any consensus reached on a lynch target when scum was in that chat, so I won't go along quite yet.


@RA, there is no more cop deathy. It died with Zoidberg. Mafia's day chat died too presumably, so that's good at least.

Unless I am misunderstanding, they are still a dethy. They just don't have day chat.

[Rift Adrift]

I don't think day chat is what makes them a dethy.

[Rift Adrift]

Zoidberg flip looks excellent for me and rofl caught the timestamp.

Unsurprisingly, I agree that you two are the most town-looking of the dethy. From the outside, Ghostliy Penguin looks pretty good to me, but that's from the outside. Most of what I like about them was how they went about grilling us after I took a chillax break that first weekend of day 1.

[Rift Adrift]

I mean, one sucked up to the Dethy, the other sucked up to obv-towns; and town flips. Does that give you a conclusion on their respective alignments?

AJ p much made me uneasy from the start of her posting. When Slandaar made his posts about the dethy, that snapped Zoidberg into focus for me. And it also kinda illuminated AJ's stances as being opposite in a lot of ways, which makes me wonder about distancing.

It could be coincidental. Based on what's been revealed about the game state so far though, some of my yesterday reads were pretty awesome, so I am reluctant to let go of this one easily. I probably won't push this read today, but I want to refine it, and I want it on record for future days.

[Rift Adrift]

Heh.

Vote Zmuffin

[Rift Adrift]

UNVOTE

Natirasha, I'll link some posts in a couple hours.

We feel like voting Metal Sonic, AJ and Amrun. Will leave MS to the dethy to sort for now.

[Rift Adrift]

We feel like voting Metal Sonic, AJ and Amrun. Will leave MS to the dethy to sort for now.

i see scum

Coming from someone with the freshest fferyllt scum meta available on MS, this is pretty funny.

For the meta enthusiasts, FTR I completed 2 scum games yesterday.

[Rift Adrift]

@Slandaar,

I'm going to make this as concise as possible because I think the quote walling has gone on long enough.

My issue with your #210 still stands; you appear to have still thought Titus was scum in #210, you unvoted, and you didn't vote anyone else. Saying that you needed to reread is not an adequate explanation IMO.

I'm going to pretend you aren't really asking me to explain why Titus's thoughts on RVS were misconstrued, because Titus has already explained it several times herself and it's a moot issue now.

The reason I took issue with your vote on Baezu is because you did absolutely nothing with it; it was an empty vote. This isn't town play. Town pushes for the lynches they want. Scum drop votes here and there to make it look like they're being productive when they really aren't.

And I would agree that there is quite a difference in the context of the post in which you used the term "weird" to describe Titus's play, and in the post that Baezu used weird to describe Jakarbus's play, but the point is that you apparently seem to think using a "buzzword" like "weird" instead of scummy is what scum do, and you did the same thing. Either you're wrong and your attack was weak and unjustified or you're guilty of it yourself.

I was scumreading Slandaar mostly on the basis of post 210 for the early part of the thread. You (and I) missed a breadcrumb by Titus. Slandaar caught it, which is why he backed off that vote in a way that looked unsupported by either his own thought process or by what was happening in the thread.

[Rift Adrift]

Also, I believe I'm currently L-3. I'd like to at least finish writing my thoughts on the game before a lynch happens. While I'd prefer my lynch not happen at all, at the very least I want to get my analysis of D1 out so that perhaps you derps can look back on it and think about what I'm writing.

Muffin's posts have been squarely town today. I know y'all cops agreed but given Muffin's posts, this has derp written all over it. This is a train of lose as Thor would say.

This.

[Rift Adrift]

@Everyone, if y'all are giving Slandaar a lot of credit if you think he caught a crumb. The only crumb I left at that point would be what? I hadn't mentioned bomb or explosion yet, so the crumb you are giving credit for must be the other half of my role. If you see that, then both scum and town would want off my wagon. Getting off my wagon is a null tell. I don't traditionally crumb at all.

I'm pretty sure he claimed to have caught a crumb later when explaining that hop off your wagon.

[Rift Adrift]

@Everyone, if y'all are giving Slandaar a lot of credit if you think he caught a crumb. The only crumb I left at that point would be what? I hadn't mentioned bomb or explosion yet, so the crumb you are giving credit for must be the other half of my role. If you see that, then both scum and town would want off my wagon. Getting off my wagon is a null tell. I don't traditionally crumb at all.

I'm pretty sure he claimed to have caught a crumb later when explaining that hop off your wagon.

I'm going to retract this for now because I can't find what I'm looking for in Slandaar's iso via ctl-f. I'll have to do some digging.

[Rift Adrift]

Given the scum had a daychat deathy, if Slandaar had caught my crumb, my train would have likely dissolved quickly with a lot of buddying. I am not seeing that. Therefore, I don't think Slandy's scum. That is supposing he caught a crumb at all.

Your terminology in this post makes me crazy.

Daychat was enabled by the scum encryptor role. It was enabled both for scum and for the dethy.

The dethy is a sort of subgame going on in the larger game, and contains four town cops and one scum player.

The scum team itself is not a dethy.

[Rift Adrift]

Can Titus/Rift/rofl point me towards the important points of day one? I will likely get around to reading the other 50 pages eventually, but if I'm missing anything of dire importance(ie ROLE CLAIMS), I'd like to know.

When you're around, shout.

[Rift Adrift]

Part of the Dethys includes some of my pre-dethy-reveal town reads and I want to go with your consensus.

I'm getting a town impression from zmuffin's psots. Not comfortable with that lynch so I unvoted.

[Rift Adrift]

Yo, Rift, talk to me.

roflcopter (1) - ArcAngel9
Zoidberg

(7)

- Titus, Ghostly Penguin, Rift Adrift, TiphaineDeath, Aunt Jemina, BROseidon, roflcopter
Baezu (4) - oriole, Xiao Long, Amrun, Zoidberg
TiphaineDeath (1) - EddieFenix
Metal Sonic (1) - elvis_knits
elvis_knits (1) - PeregrineV
BROseidon (4) - Slandaar, StubbsKVM, Metal Sonic
Aunt Jemina (1) - Baezu

Not Voting (0) -

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-09 10:28:34)

Mod: Is the scum player allowed to share the link to the deathy QT with the other scums?

Any QTs links are not allowed to be shared.

roflcopter (1) - ArcAngel9
Zoidberg (4) - TiphaineDeath, Aunt Jemina, BROseidon, roflcopter
Baezu (2) - oriole, Zoidberg
TiphaineDeath (1) - EddieFenix
Metal Sonic (1) - elvis_knits
elvis_knits (1) - PeregrineV
BROseidon (1) - StubbsKVM
Aunt Jemina

(6)

- Baezu, Amrun, Ghostly Penguin, Xiao Long, Rift Adrift, Metal Sonic
EddieFenix (1) - Slandaar
Amrun (1) - Titus

Not Voting (0) -

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-09 10:28:34)

Prodding ArcAngel9.

roflcopter (1) - ArcAngel9
Zoidberg

(8)

- TiphaineDeath, Aunt Jemina, BROseidon, roflcopter, Titus, oriole, Rift Adrift, StubbsKVM
Baezu (1) - Zoidberg
TiphaineDeath (1) - EddieFenix
Metal Sonic (1) - elvis_knits
elvis_knits (1) - PeregrineV
Aunt Jemina (5) - Baezu, Amrun, Ghostly Penguin, Xiao Long, Metal Sonic
EddieFenix (1) - Slandaar

Not Voting (0) -

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
(expired on 2013-08-09 10:28:34)

Remind me why you changed your vote to AJ when there was a wagon there over Zoidberg?

The short answer is because we think she's scum. We also obviously thought zoidberg was scum, but the zoidberg wagon kinda stalled and an AJ wagon looked awfully sweet.

The somewhat longer answer is that we are worried that this town will never have enough appetite for an AJ lynch. Any time there appears to be some momentum in that direction we will probably join it.

I have wondered if we're in a confirmation biased cul de sac re AJ, but every time I read her posts what I see is a bunch of unsupported reads for the most part. Even where I agree with her on a particular player's alignment I have little idea why she has them as that alignment. And the overall stance reeks of opportunism.

[Rift Adrift]

Just in case you're too derp to realise, L-3 should be treated the same as L-1 with the Romeo and Juliet votes being hidden until vote counts are updated. I was at L-3. So yes, that counts as really close to a lynch.

Their votes are not hidden. They're in the counts. Or Romeo's was yesterday.

[Rift Adrift]

you were at l-3 for what seemed like two seconds, until your scumbuddies ghostly amrun and maybe rift all took the opportunity to bail on your wagon

</3

[Rift Adrift]

Titus what are your thoughts on Baezu atm?

You didn't ask me, but I'm answering anyway.

Baezu's completed MS games:

vanilla town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29631
vanilla town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29901
scum - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=28555

Compare those to her posts in this game prior to Syr and I saying she's on her town game. Since then, the tone of her posts have changed a little, which I kinda attribute to the torches and pitchforks pulling back a little.

You can iso me and ctl-f on page 2 for "thumbnail" to see my summary of our meta-based thoughts about baezu.

[Rift Adrift]

@Rift,

OK. I read your assessment and noticed the same patterns from a quick scan over those games, but I'm not convinced Baezu is town just from that. The only problem I have now is if I rule out Baezu as scum, I literally only have Amrun as a strong scum read after the end of D1. Remind me what your current thoughts on Amrun are.

We had Amrun as town for nearly all of day 1. The posts leading up to the Zoidberg hammer shook that read in a big way and we're leaning scum now. I'm still in reevaluation mode. Her wagon looks a little off to me.

I think we are looking for 2 more scum outside the dethys. Possibly 3, but the dethys itself is such a shiny thing that 5 total scum in a game this size seems a little over the top.

[Rift Adrift]

Why?

Don't feed the trolls.

[Rift Adrift]

Look up to post 2328. Tasty Baezu meta.

Haven't formally meta'd Ghostly Penguin, but I have a couple Ghostlin games in my rear view mirror.

[Rift Adrift]

You got any sexy meta info on anyone cool, preferably named Ghostly Penguin or Baezu?

You got any sexy anything other than like, a deathtunnel on Amrun?

[Rift Adrift]

You got any sexy meta info on anyone cool, preferably named Ghostly Penguin or Baezu?

You got any sexy anything other than like, a deathtunnel on Amrun?

Not really I have Oriole+Titus down as town. Based on Paradox Prime, I tentatively have you down as town, but I'm otherwise null. I like Zmuff's posts, he's been a much better replacement than I am. The fact that Amrun tried to lead a lynch on him at day start is just gravy. I wish people would vote Amrun. I have a role that is confirmable, but is otherwise alignment-neutral. Metal Sonic's name sounds familiar, but I cannot place it. rofl is a curiosity and I had down as town for the majority of my reread, but is acting weirdly in the past few pages and I'm not sure how I feel about his bargaining. ArcAngel is a useless lurker as usual. AuntieJ is a weirdo, I hate her nicknaming, but I really like her posts starting from 1909. I think either the Penguin or Slardar are the dethy scum. Everyone else I have no opinion on at the moment. Peregrine's okay, I guess.

Truthfully, I feel out of my depths. I replaced into the game on a whim(literally flipped a coin between this one and another), only after I replaced in did I realize there was an 80 page Day One -.-. Replacing a lurker VI doesn't help. Let's lynch Amrun, okay?

Well, the ambiguous read on us, however inexplicable from my perspective is shared by a few folks, so.

Agree with your oriole, titus, zuff, and rofl reads. rofl is still town because he was town as fuck day 1. I just don't get where he's coming from today.

Haven't decided where our vote is going yet.

If Slandaar is scum, then the way he outed the dethy on day 1 was jawdroppingly awesome theatre.

[Rift Adrift]

e.g., I don't think Slandaar is scum.

[Rift Adrift]

So I'm just about ready to clear BRO and rofl from the Dethy group.

yes.

how do you feel about Slandaar?

[Rift Adrift]

So I'm just about ready to clear BRO and rofl from the Dethy group.

yes.

how do you feel about Slandaar?

Towniest of the three remaining. Scum's probably between Ghostly and Metal Sonic.

yes again.

What do we disagree on??

[Rift Adrift]

I'm going to guess Amrun. What's your read on her again?

You agree with Syr on Nati. I'm kinda null/town atm.

I thought Amrun looked towntowntown day 1 all the way up to the last page with the stuff between Zoidberg's claim and the final votecount. I'm not all that thrilled with her posts today, but once a bunch of people start calling someone scum suddenly everything they post looks scummy.

I want to re-iso her after that impression fades a little. If I had to put a vote down right now, I'd probably put it on Amrun.

[Rift Adrift]

I had some posts to make as I caught up but they don't seem to matter now.

GG

I would have hammered if I wasn't already on after this post, tbf. It's fantastically scummy.

Same.

Hammering wasn't the issue.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm going to guess Amrun. What's your read on her again?

My reset is more or less accomplished re Amrun.

And Syr agrees with you about Eddie/Natirasha, which adds a vast quantity of doubt around my own null-ish read.

Vote: Natirasha

[Rift Adrift]

@BRO, I get your probably town but you are playing suboptimally right now. Town needs the most information it can get. I doubt you are psychic and know what Rofl actually got. If you can tell us why you want to withhold the reason from the rest of the town, I might be more understanding. Yet, reasons is typically a bad excuse.

I know I used ~reasons~ to avoid saying what I did to Tiphaine. That is because I couldn't tell the truth about their being a bomb on Tiphaine. I am not seeing a different rationale there.

It's not like the info will be lost forever if rofl doesn''t put it in the game thread today. If he posts it in the dethy QT night 2 (and I fully expect he will) then all of town will know it in the fullness of time (e.g., probably day 3).

[Rift Adrift]

@Rift, I cannot see the point in withholding though. Yeah, the information won't be lost but still, I'm not a fan of withholding for ~reasons~ unless absolutely necessary.

~reasons~ less data for scum going into Night 2, when it could help them target their night kill tonight.

[Rift Adrift]

Prod noted.

I like our vote on Natirasha. Will move to PV if necessary to assure a lynch.

Rofl, keep looking. I think you could be wrong in the case of at least two. I know you're wrong in the case of one. I won't be voting Amrun today.

[Rift Adrift]

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At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this.
by Titus » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:00 am
You do realize you've said the equivalent of "I know you're wrong because I won't vote my scum buddy right?" if rofl is right and you and amrun are scum.

If you are saying that would be an abysmally stupid thing for scum to say, I agree.

Syr and I have talked briefly about rofl's apparent belief that there are 5 scum in a 19 player game. It's possible though the ratio seems high. But, once the dethys is sorted then that's 4 town plus whoever the sane and insane cops viewed confirmed as either town or scum. So maybe 5 does make sense. That's a lot of players for scum to kill through during the night.

[Rift Adrift]

Ugh quote highlight somehow strikes again. That was supposed to be a quote of 2492

[Rift Adrift]

Considering you think Amrun is town, who would you go with as the scums?

The dethys is a little confusing, but our guess is Metal Sonic or Ghostly Penguin. GP's posts make sense to us but the dethy has considerably more info to go on in figuring each other out and I'm inclined to trust them to sort themselves.

Outside the dethy, the players who look most scummy to me are AJ, Natirasha and PeregrineV. There ae some legacy concerns about zMuffin, but I've liked many of his posts. Though the dumb fight between slandaar and him is pretty dumb.

[Rift Adrift]

What is the town read on Amrun coming from? Or what parts of the arguments for Amrun being scum do you disagree with?

Is it just because you were reading her as town D1?

A lot of it is due to her day 1 play, which I saw as very solidly pro-town. You say something about her not moving off Titus quickly enough, but that is something I associate with her town play. Once she scum-reads a slot she's tenacious and she's not swayed by popular sentiment or by pressure. She may change her vote for tactical reasons, but the read persists until something in the game state or the player's behavior warrants a read change from her perspective.

I was reading the thread in real time during the period when Zoidberg posted his vt claim and then declined to post his reads, and I think that's why I was freaked about her posts leading up to the hammer. Syr's reaction to that page of posts the next day pretty much echoed my real-time reaction, which lent some additional gravity to my read-change.

From there, two things happened. There was a pile-on and Amrun was basically defending from a crapload of posts coming from mind-made-up "she's scum" mindsets. Her replies didn't matter. Minds weren't changing. She kept slogging on but there was a grimness to her posts that I associate with town players recognizing that their words aren't getting through. When that happens to me I stop thinking about the here-and-now and start thinking about what happens tomorrow whether I'm part of the game or not. I think I see that in her posts. But! Before I reread and found that perspective something else happened.

Oriole engaged me and we talked a little about our reads. And that caused me to notice that he and I had a pretty damn huge disconnect - the first real reads disconnect I've seen between our reads lists. And the disconnect happened to be Amrun. Which is why I went back through her late day 1 and day 2 posts more carefully, and which is why I noticed the stuff in the previous paragraph.

[Rift Adrift]

that is something I associate with her town play. Once she scum-reads a slot she's tenacious and she's not swayed by popular sentiment or by pressure.

I can't really comment on this since all experience I have with Amrun is probably outdated, but what traits do you associate with Amrun's scum play that are different to how she's played in this game? Also, my real issue with Amrun pushing the Titus thing (and later wanting to lynch from the Dethy QT) is that it should have been rather obvious that neither of these were good approaches, especially on D1.

I've played one game with her where she was scum and at the time I didn't have much sense of her town play. In the scum game, she was quite waffly about her vote and reads, and came up with an (in retrospect) hilarious reason why a player who'd all but claimed scum should be left alive one more day to test his (fake) claim.

There was a pile-on and Amrun was basically defending from a crapload of posts coming from mind-made-up "she's scum" mindsets. Her replies didn't matter. Minds weren't changing.

I'm going to assume you mean the stuff from the start of D2 before I posted? Because since then I haven't really seen her address any of the points brought up about her, at least not in the manner you're suggesting she did. For example, I thought AJ's point about her hammer and how it betrayed a scum mindset were correct, and I've yet to see this addressed by her.

I'll go back and try to re-read this from as unbiased a viewpoint as I can in a bit and tell you what I think about this, because I don't remember getting any of that feeling from her posts at the time.

It's possible I'm projecting a little due to being in that mode myself in a recent game. But, I think it was real. She is a lot more dogged than I am about continuing to defend, though. There's a weekly cycle to her posting style which needs to be factored in. Friday-ish through Sunday she phoneposts when she posts at all.

Which is why I went back through her late day 1 and day 2 posts more carefully, and which is why I noticed the stuff in the previous paragraph.

Just to be clear, here, does this mean you changed your mind about the late D1 stuff being scummy?

I still kinda don't like some of her posts but I get the impression she was wee-hours-of-the-morning phoneposting, which in and of itself is pretty townish IMO.

[Rift Adrift]

Okay, you want some posting? Let's do some fucking posting. Let's make a list of all the folks in the game with my thoughts as addendums.

People who are town as fuck and are awesome:

BRO - Conftown for more reasons than I can fucking count.

oriole - You are my soulmate. Towny AND reasonable, I may just swoon.

GP - Your recent posting (particularly the MS bit) has damn near channeled fery. It's pretty damn scary. You join the town as fuck cadre.

People who are town as fuck but don't merit listening to yet:

Slandaar - Dude, I don't know what game you're playing, but it ain't this one. You're town if for no other reason than it would never occur to you to make some of this shit up as scum (and the fact that MS is the scum in the dethy). Get your head out of deathtunnels on townies and you can join the cool people.

rofl - You were town as fuck Day 1. Then you got infected by Slandaar's deathtunnel town syndrome. I dunno wot the fuck's going on in your head, but you need to clear it the fuck out and start making some sense before we give you any more credence.

zMuffin - We really like you. I personally wanted to add you to the core townbloc because I like your posting and you've made a hell of a lot of sense, particularly given all the shit you went through when you replaced in. Fery's a bit more cautious though; she wants to see some more from you first. Keep goodposting and a towncred promotion will easily be in reach.

Titus: #1 nonsense contributor. Town by PR, but no credence shall be given unless unless sensible posts happen.

Baezu - Town, but not doing fuckall. Pick the activity up ffs.

PeregrineV - Ghostlin, you're gonna hate me for this, but I'm legitimately leaning town on this guy. His content sucks, I'll give ya that. But I went back and looked at his ISO and found 1225. He's got all townies in his town list. Except maybe Stubbs, who's null. That just doesn't strike me as scum behavior from Pere; fairly sure he'd try to slip at least one partner in there. Not only that, but go back and look at his interactions with Zoidberg. It just doesn't look like SvS interactions. It just doesn't.

People I can't make heads or tails of:

Amrun - I really liked you Day 1. I did. Then you went and lolderpy'd all over Zoidberg, and you've handwaved/brushed off every attempt we've made to talk to you toDay. So you've been downgraded from town as fuck to "I don't know what the hell to do with you."

Stubbs - Underwhelming. Nuff said.

Whoever the fuck replaces AA9 - Yeah. I got nothin.

Chainsaw's ready, let's hew some limbs:

Aunt Jemina - Your play has been complete shit. Your entire ISO consists of a bunch of completely unprovable and unarguable bullshit and you've slid the garbage under the mat by smugly claiming all your scumreads are scum for "meta reasons you can't disclose". I'm calling bullshit and calling it loud. Your play is mechanical and you've not done a jot of meaningful analysis this entire game. Any attempt to reach out to you is met sneeringly if not outright ignored.

MS - If I open the dictionary to "cheeky little scumfuck", it's got your goddamn picture right next to it. Ghostly was spot on with his analysis of you and you're the only tool in the dethy that makes any kind of sense as scum. You haven't done fuckall the entire game and you've been more than pleased to lynch just about anybody except Zoidberg. Fancy that.

Natirasha - Dude, it pains me that you replaced into a scum role. I liked you in Paradox. But your play here is underwhelmingly poor. You've done precisely fuckall: complained about the length of the thread, tunnelled Amrun. That's pretty much it. There's none of your town fire, no desire to figure anything out. Hell, today you even requested we help you sustain your failing deathtunnel on Amrun. You ain't town, and we ain't havin that shit.

[Rift Adrift]

Aunt Jemina: town

Why?

don't think so.

Part of the problem.

I've been the biggest presenter of the case against Amrun and that it shifted your read isn't nonsense at all.

Our read on Amrun has nothing to do with you.

@Baezu, I'm really not liking that sheep.

Deal with it, she's town. We went over this yesterDay.

[Rift Adrift]

@Baezu, I'm really not liking that sheep.

I'm going to back Syry up here: AND...what are you going to do about it? Pretend what happened Day 1 didn't happen? Pretend she actually didn't provide content when she did in that post?

Aww, shucks. Got any thoughts on the rest of m'list, Ghostlin?

Aunt Jemina: town

Why?

Because I have always liked her posts, and found myself agreeing with a lot of it, as far as I can remember.

K.

[Rift Adrift]

So, where to start? At this point, it is in my best interest to just claim. Why? I saw something about Zoidberg's fakeclaim that I think the town failed to miss-I don't want to point it out because then scum will know, but I recommend all go look at his claim again... I am the Chocolate Zombie, devourer of brains and currently debating the morality of eating myself. Kinda funny how the role decides the reflects on the player at times. My role, without giving too much of my ability away, is one-shot and involves devouring ones brains. It is not a killing ability and has not been used yet.

Titus, your opinion on this claim?

Yes. I disagree with you with PV. Oh, boy do I disagree with you, but at least unlike most of Town, you see my fucking point.

Amrun...I want to investigate her, find out my sanity, but it's breaking my heart because I feel she's Town still and the hammer posting and the reads on Zoidberg weren't fake. Here's a good example: I generally thought MS was playing his normal play until about three pages ago when he started pushing a lynch, any lynch and started going fuck all all over the thread. To the point I was really sweating finding the scum Dethy. Then...yeah, he's getting cocky with the Amrun lynch, and he's joined by two other of my scumreads, and one of yours.

Stubbs: I think PA thinks he's scum. I think he's a passable lynch due to the light amount of lifting he's doing. Either way, he's not terrifically protown and I don't...yeah, the AJ post pressed the 'not credible' button for me.

AJ: FUCK YES. I wanna buy you a beer. Ffery, you were right, I -do- like him.

MS: Yes. He's so scum, he's radiating the vibes to the naked eye.

Nat: Eddie was horrible, Nat's meh, I'd be ok with lynching this slot.

Let's get with oriole and BRO and solve this game. Beers afterward.

Rift - have you noticed I've been v/la this entire game day and haven't even read everything which might have a teensy bit to do with me not responding to you in some way you're looking for? If you can briefly re-state that would be great.

Who are your top scumreads and why? Who are your top townreads and why? I think the lolhammer shit's been beaten to death at this point.

I don't know what game you're playing

Death's Diner currently in Day 2.

Aight m8. Whenever you want to talk, we'll be over there with BRO, oriole, GP.

also

Rift Adrift is going to solidify my scum read on her

I have extensive fferylit + syryana meta

the fact that they are calling me scum + scum pushing me + not using meta

yeah tbh im very sure rift is scum now

will support his wagon if possible at day 3(because not gonna happen today <i think>)

Replace Rift Adrift with "Rifty Drifty" and we have a classic Death's Diner Aunt Jemina post. Well done.

It's possible I'm projecting a little due to being in that mode myself in a recent game. But, I think it was real.

I reread the start of D2 and I'm still not seeing things the way you're apparently seeing them. I do see her coming across as frustrated with Titus's argument about her voting pattern, but I think that stems more from the fact that Titus's point about the votes themselves wasn't a particularly good point. I think (hope) that was dropped, but I've yet to see her address any of the valid concerns with her play.

I can maybe understand the hammering stuff *maybe* being partially because it was late and phoneposting and whatever, but it still looked fake and it is still rather strange that she was perfectly fine with hammering without a claim or anything. The last part of this I realise isn't that big a deal with the deadline looming and Zoidberg's #2026, but I still have bad feelings about the way in which the hammer happened and nothing she's said so far has alleviated my concerns here.

--

We'll get back to you on Amrun.

But I went back and looked at [PV's] ISO and found 1225. He's got all townies in his town list.

Huh? I see Amrun, AJ and all the Dethy QT members but Slandaar in his town list. Unless Amrun and AJ are both town and Slandaar is scum, then I don't see what you think you saw here... Not to mention Stubbs who you seem to have recently downgraded to a null read.

The only thing about #1225 that I think looks town is the fact that he only put one scum read in there. But I'm beginning to think this is more of a null thing.

So, prior to readback.

Uptown

Rift Adrift
StubbsKVM
roflcopter
Titus
TiphaineDeath
Amrun

Downtown

BROseidon
Radioactive Wolf Aunt Jemina
Ghostly Penguin (although want Penguin meta followup)
Jabarkus Mayonnaise (Varsoon/Xiao Long Xiao Long

No current strong feel- will need to read backhistory

Slandaar- nulltown
ArcAngel9-nothing
oriole-nulltown
elvis_knits-nothing/nullscum
Zoidberg-nothing/nulltown
Metal Sonic-nothing
Baezu-nothing
EddieFenix-nothing (replacing)

Vote: Elvis

Excepting possibly Amrun and/or Stubbs, his town list is all definite townies. He's only got one person in the dethy in his town list. Two are in his scumlist. Since scum already knew about the dethy, I don't think scumPere would have scumread both BRO and GP.

Not only that, but go back and look at his interactions with Zoidberg. It just doesn't look like SvS interactions.

Which posts are you referring to here? Because I was null on most of the back-and-forth between the two at the end of D1. It wasn't exactly an intense back-and-forth and I could easily see it happening between scum partners.

---

2025-2030 approximately. Zoidberg's reactions don't look like him reacting to a partner. Looks more like him slinging mud everywhere he can as he goes down.

Anyway. I'm not currently reading Natirasha as scum.

I still want an Amrun lynch. My preferred alternative is PV, who's currently prod-dodging and has yet to respond to any of the stuff on him.

More later after I finish doing some reading in my other games.

We'll talk about Nasty after we sort others.

Nati, you're going to have to do some explaining on that Chocolate Zombie claim. What's the flavor that goes with that role?

More detail in general would be great, Nastyrasha.

[Rift Adrift]

Top scum: PV, Nat, AJ, zmuffin
Top Town: Bro, Rift, Slandaar, Titus (betrudgingly)

Please explain PV and ZMuffin?

[Rift Adrift]

You know that "downtown" was also town for PV, right? He explained this at some point, where he noted that downtown was still town but just less town than uptown. But yes, if Amrun, Stubbs and you are all town, then he put no scum in his strongest townreads...

I seem to have missed this. Modifying interior analysis criterion. Thank you.

[Rift Adrift]

RA, The claim seems consistent with the Bastard Modding. Yet, I still don't know what Chocolate Zombie does. It also halfway sounds like a joke.

I may re-ask this later.

[Rift Adrift]

Unvote

Scum-Nati would have known that Titus had some sort of PR from talking with the rest of the scum. I do not for one minute thing the scum team missed all the talk about Titus' undisclosed role on day 1.

There might be some reason why scum would choose to wait - maybe to pick off a useful cop's ability from the dethy, which is my only niggle.

In Nati's first or 2nd post after replacing in he asked about day 1 role claims, which fits the claim.

[Rift Adrift]

Where do you get that nat didn't know Titus' role? Still skimming ish but I don't see it.

He might have. if he did, he didn't steal Titus' ability on night 1, which I think is pro-town. A scum role stealer already under suspicion as Nati's predecessor was would have to weigh getting a potentially better target later over surviving long enough to steal the ability (and use it).

[Rift Adrift]

How are lovers with votes after they die negative utility?

It's not genuine because the frustration was over an idiotic argument and not over "valid" ones -> there was no non-idiotic argument -> it's not genuine

No, I believe it's genuine, I just don't believe it's alignment indicative as Rift seemed to suggest.

The role itself can be any alignment from what I've read in the wiki.

Nati's decisions/behaviors around the claimed role look pro-town to me, not pro-scum.

[Rift Adrift]

Your entire ISO consists of a bunch of completely unprovable and unarguable bullshit and you've slid the garbage under the mat by smugly claiming all your scumreads are scum for "meta reasons you can't disclose". I'm calling bullshit and calling it loud. Your play is mechanical and you've not done a jot of meaningful analysis this entire game. Any attempt to reach out to you is met sneeringly if not outright ignored.

My play is mechanical, yes. This is an intentional decision of mine, because I dislike my default method of playing. When I let that style of play dominate, I made a mistake in a game I should have won and ultimately lost. Mechanical posting encourages lack of emotional attachment and overcoming confirmation bias, problems I have had trouble with before. I am sorry if you do not respect my decision, but it is one which I intend to continue.

The rest of this is entirely false. My iso is littered with arguments rooted in logic from the thread, and there is only two scumreads based off of meta: Ghosty's Ally half (very strongly; I do have Ghosty's ghosty-half as minorly sour as well), and your hydra (very weakly). Furthermore, they are not reasons I cannot disclose. They are reasons I am figuring out

how

to disclose, and while I have admittedly slacked off on it, it has not been forgotten. And I have reached out to others. Including to you. I've reached out to most of the playerbase, most of all, your slot.

You

are the ones not responding to me. Not vice-versa.

What have we not responded to? I replied in detail to several of your posts, comparing your reads with ours, and explaining what I thought were the basis for where we disagree. The responses I got basically came down to "lol meta lol ur scum" with literally nothing to argue or refute. You didn't refer to specific posts of ours in this game. You didn't refer to other completed games. I don't usually respond to such baseless FoSes more than once.

This game is very frustrating on one level and it's exhilirating on another. I feel like my town reads are for the most part spot on. Swirls and eddites in the in-thread interactions that I couldn't put names to - like dethy or mason group - have strongly affected my reads of some players, and that made it possible for me to almost immediately grasp hidden context in the zoidberg/dethy interactoins of day 1.

You are actually one of the enigmas of this game. Your interactions hint at knowlege and subtle alliance building.

Nothing wrong with alliance building. But, I prefer to be extremely unsubtle about putting together town blocs. The way you have gone about it sets off alarms.

Maybe my scum-read of you boils down to your intentional opaqueness related to wanting to play sans meta and sans your usual persona. If that's the case, then I hope to hell I figure it out before I eventually try to get you lynched come hell or high water.

This is another reach out, not unlike the first one.

- tell me what I have not answered or responded to so I can address that

- If you really think I am scum, then build a persuasive case. If it's persuasive it will also be subtantive enough that I can address it for good or ill.

- If you think my reads are wrong, then indicate where I'm misinterpreting or missing significant stances or interactions.

[Rift Adrift]

Nati's decisions/behaviors around the claimed role look pro-town to me, not pro-scum.

While I agree the things he's been saying look town, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why he claimed so early and if the role he claimed even makes sense as a town role in this setup.

btw, did your scum read on him on him change entirely because of his role claim or do you still think he's scum?

It changed not so much because of the claim itself, but because his behaviors since joining the game are consistent with a town role stealer IMO.

I usually abbreviate this to wincon --> motivations --> in-thread behaviors, but in this case I think the complete form is indicated.

win condition + role + personal interests/mafia goals --> motivations --> in-thread behaviors

I work backwards from in-thread behaviors to understand motivations, and from there to sort on win condition from the other stuff. When I'm scum, the other stuff - especiially behaviors that suggest PRs - is of special interest.

Nati's play did not really demonstrate something that I've already learned to expect from him - a high personal interest level in game mechanics. I have seen this in his town play in the Paradox Prime mini game and the lack concerned both Syr and me along with other stuff that made it look like Nati's involvement was perfunctory.

With his role claim, what I have seen of his behaviors snapped into a recognizeable pattern. And that pattern looks town motivated: Hold off on using the one-time abilty. Make sure he knows the role claims already on the table. Put the role info out there at a timeframe that suggests not so much as a last resort for avoiding lynch, but as a game mechanic town can figure out and utilize to advantage.

I'm really concerned that I'm missing something, though, because oriole is seeing the claim differently.

p-edit Wait...Titus is reading Nati as scum??

[Rift Adrift]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Metal Sonic

/inb4 I'm bitched out for voting inside Dethy.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

GHOSTLIN, JOIN US IN GLORY!

.... and post-game beers.

[Rift Adrift]

But anyway, if you actually believe it's a scum claim, why aren't you voting him?

I'm tempted to, but PA has to be similarly invested (ie, she has to agree to remove our vote on scum PV).

Explain to me how the claim's town. Also, read this game, particular end of Day 1: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28438

Do you see possible connections between this game and MM's claim?


AJ, you've not discussed your meta reads so much it's Day 2 and we're still talking about how you've not talked about your meta reads Day 1.

I really feel you're a veiled one of these to the entire Town:

Oriole, I know, right? It's almost like he's scum.

Can you explain in clearer detail wtf you're going on about a game that, mind you, started before I even returned to the site, about a theme I don't care about, and a role that has little semblance to mine?

So...MM claims at L-4, when she's not the only leading wagon, without any impetus from anyone else Day 1, a PR that might be useful to Town (Dreamwalker/Doctor, think of Dreamwalker as a limited commute/neighborizer). The town lynches her two Days later, and she turns out to be scum. One of the things that also overlaps is while Town did have her tied, she was not necessarily the leading wagon of suspicion, the Town had pretty much gone on and off Milkshake all day long.

I was in that game, and I was highly suspicious of MM's claim and overall behavior on day 1.

I am not getting anything like the self-preservation vibe from Nati that mara's day 1 posts oozed.

[Rift Adrift]

Okay, although I still would prefer Amrun, I'm willing to roll with the Metal Sonic lynch. But you guys do realize that, if he's town and I'm scum, you're pretty much giving up the dethy, right?

True, but you're not scum and he is.

MS FOR DEATH 2013!

[Rift Adrift]

I cannot think this is a smart move to lynch with the deathy.

As opposed to what, lynching Natirasha-town?

I feel stupid but what the fuck is happening right now.

We're lynching scum. You in or out?

PEDIT: BRO, BABY, WE'RE LYNCHING METAL SONIC AND DRINKING OUR ASSES OFF, JOIN USSSSSS

[Rift Adrift]

You're in a good mood tonight, Syryana(Did I guess right?).

[Rift Adrift]

You're right. He's been a scumfuck all game. Why the hell would we lynch him?

[Rift Adrift]

Nat is one of those scum. Stop getting distracted trying to find the others and lynch.

Swing and a miss. That's what, 0 for 4?

I think Nat's claim could be town, but I don't think it's likely, looking at what's out there.

I think Nat's claim is absolutely town, and so is his perking up as soon as he had a mechanics puzzle to solve.

You guys are

such

killjoys.

Right?! I'm particularly disappointed in BRO.

See, the problem I have is that it's very unlikely Natirasha and Metal Sonic are scum together.

Impossible actually, since Nastyrasha is town.

...you're not in a mason group, you're in a neighborhood. There is scum in there, and as far as I can tell there's a significant chance it could be you. Why are you trying to defend yourself with patently false statements?

--PA

You're doing it wrong. Lemme show you how it's done.

I finy it very unlikely that me and Natarisha are scum together

I find it unlikely that I can be a scum in a mason group

I find it even more unlikely for these two to be combined together

the chance of me being scum is

square root(-1) =
i

1) You're not a fucking mason.
2) You're not scum with Natirasha because Natirasha is town.
3) No shit, an impossibility with an impossibility is, gasp, two impossibilities.
4) If you were town in the dethy, you might have some clue as to how it worked. You're not, so you don't.
5) It is nicely ironic that the probability of you being scum is you.

Lesson learned, penguin?

Now, let's see. Major obstacle to scumfuck being dead: he's in the dethy. Let's examine that sticky little situation, shall we?

Reasons we shouldn't lynch in the dethy, followed by reasons you're wrong and why you should stop being bitches and vote Metal Sonic:

Reason 1

:

We might lynch a cop.

Response

: Okay. So we've got 5 people in the dethy, 4 of whom are cops of varying sanities. That means what, an 80% chance of lynching a cop? Wrong. You see, the problem with probabilities is that they are random. We are not lynching randomly. If you take into account the fact we're not lynching randomly but in fact lynching scum, we have a 0% chance to lynch a cop.

Reason 2

:

But... but... you don't know MS is scum!

Response

: ....Okay, I'll pretend you're an idiot for a minute. Let's look at the people in the dethy.

BROseidon - Conftown as anybody gets without being an IC.

roflcopter - This lovable little derprabbit is also obvtown as fuck. Anybody with arguments to the contrary can post them, and I'll tell you why you're wrong later.

Ghostly Penguin - This guy is suspected by some of you. I'm not entirely sure why. He's been pushing his scumreads, attempting to figure out the dethy, his frustration with the excessively high level of dumbfuckery in this game is incredibly genuine, and he's making repeated attempts to work with his townreads to get a lynch. Need I say more?

Slandaar - Sigh. I've said words about this guy before. I'm not doing it again. He's town.

Metal Sonic - Lack of meaningful contributions? Check. Active attempts to throw mud on townies? Check. Attempts to wreck townblocs? Check. Lack of interest in who gets lynched and their alignments? Check. This guy is scum as shit, and he's essentially sitting there going "NANANANA BOO BOO, YOU CAN'T GET ME CAUSE I'M IN THE DETH-YYYYYYY". And he doesn't even know how a dethy works, considering he called them "a bunch of masons" just a few posts ago. Hmm.

Well, shit. It seems like we have 4 townies and one scum. What do you know?

Reason 3

:

The dethy will sort itself if we leave it alone.

Response

: Well, this assumes two things, really. First, that people in the dethy are competent and working together to figure out cop sanities/alignments. Second, that you lynch the scum in the dethy. Well, it should be pretty damn obvious that number one ain't happening. Five people, five "investigations", five completely different targets. Let's hear it for internal cooperation, guys!

As for number two, well. People are bitching about not wanting to lynch in the dethy, yet we're going to have to lynch in the dethy at some point. Given the current rate of intercop cooperation, the game will likely be in day 192 before those jokers ever get anywhere meaningful with their investigations. Lynching in the dethy now will be no different than lynching in the dethy later, considering a) cop results aren't going to have a meaningful impact on it at this rate anyways and b) scum have no need to fuck with the dethy as is since it's not a threat to them, so the only way we're getting meaningful info from the dethy is if we start killing people.

So, the dethy clearly isn't sorting itself without meaningful outside intervention. So, what to do about it? Lynch scumfucks, just like we would if we weren't sidetracked by OMG IT'S A DETHY. Guess who's a scumfuck? Metal Sonic.

Reason 4

:

How do you propose that the dethy sorts itself if we start killing people?

Response

: Easy as misinterpreting Faraday on Skype (Mary, marry Merry, or get rekt). Lynch Metal Sonic toDay. All 4 dethy cops investigate Aunt Jemina. Lynch Aunt Jemina. Surviving dethy cops investigate Amrun. Lynch Amrun. If the game isn't over by then, we'll know what all the sanities are because we'll have results and flips from two people. GG. And there's the added bonus of town-win!

Lynching Metal Sonic is our best way forward. We owe it to each other, to ourselves, to the world. But most of all, we owe it to the children. We don't want our children living in a world where we allowed Metal Sonic to escape erasure from the gene pool because we were scared of a mechanic. I don't know about you, but I can't look into those eyes and say "I'm sorry son, I didn't get him lynched in time. There was nothing I could do!" Allowing that miscreant to live would be a stain on our honor, a living testament to our cowardice, a monument for our stupidity. Be brave. Be righteous.

Lynch Metal Sonic.

Justice for the children.

[Rift Adrift]

You are actually one of the enigmas of this game. Your interactions hint at knowlege and subtle alliance building. Nothing wrong with alliance building. But, I prefer to be extremely unsubtle about putting together town blocs. Maybe my scum-read of you boils down to your intentional opaqueness related to wanting to play sans meta and sans your usual persona. If that's the case, then I hope to hell I figure it out before I eventually try to get you lynched come hell or high water.

- If you really think I am scum, then build a persuasive case. If it's persuasive it will also be subtantive enough that I can address it for good or ill.

- If you think my reads are wrong, then indicate where I'm misinterpreting or missing significant stances or interactions.

Blatant town blocs are problematic. My experience with them is that they will

always

have at least one scum in them, if not multiple. Sometimes, even, the person forming said town bloc. True town blocs flow organically, forming without effort. This is how my townblocs are formed as of the present day, because when I did it the way you do it, it didn't work. My current methodology has yet to fail me. It takes much longer for the townbloc to form, but when it

does

form, it is without the influence of scum players. But this is a matter of theory discussion, best left for MD or post-game. Regardless of town or scum, we both know the other holds this belief as either alignment, and thus, debating it further is utterly pointless. (Though my way

is

the correct way. )

They can be problematic, especially if they aren't reexamined. Town blocs that have scum among them tend to be disrupted. And it can be difficult to discern between intentional disruption/misdirection and a herd of obstreperous town cats. Over time, town cats will start to reach similar conclusions based on mounting evidence, even if there are disagreements on details.

Let me put this simply. This is the first post of yours in quite a while in which I can maybe see the town-you. I admit a lack of true familiarity with the scum-you; while I have encountered it, I am not intimately knowledgeable about it. But I

am

fairly well-exposed to your town self, and I cannot place words on it, but most of your posting simply has not seemed like it fit.

Regardless of your alignment, if you believe this, then you don't know my town game. It is variable, and I shape it around the people I find myself playing with. In this game, none of the players who become my usual stakes in the ground are playing, which has caused me to play a self-reliant and internalized game (internalized to Syr and myself), but has also caused me to look at players I wouldn't ordinarily focus a lot of attention on as some potential stakes in the ground.

And my reads - if they are accurate - have been amazing. I haven't had this clarity in an MS game this size before. Far from it.

One part of this, I imagine, is how you seem to be using meta far less than you normally do, as Sonny quite rightly points out. The Rifty Drifty I am familiar with has a trajectory that is heavily-reliant on meta. Its absence is jarring, and this translates into reads. When using meta, your reads seem to have increased accuracy. (In fact, this is what helped reverse the Bazzy read.) You really haven't been using meta in your reads at all, and if you are town, I believe this has caused the distaste in my read, and I believe it has hurt your accuracy as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by "trajectory" here. I don't think you're using it the way I do in the context of mafia.

I have used meta as much as I usually do in this game: where it has been applicable to clarify reads: Notably, Beazu, BRO and Natirasha. In the first case it was cold meta (which may be what you are specifically looking for) and in the other two cases it was experiential meta. We also hared off in the wrong direction re Slandaar in part due to meta, but also due to my missing why his trajectory on Titus changed.

I prefer experiential meta to cold meta, and I'm particularly wary of cold meta right now because of some recent games where cold meta in one case led me to a wrong conclusion (Paradox Prime, PeregrineV) and in another case due to exploring meta with a player who turned out to be scum, I was intentionally misled TWICE - once about a town player, and once about a scum player. (A Memory of Light, milkshake (town) and Iecerint (scum) at the behest of GoodCop_BadCop).

There are a couple of players that I now actually develop my reads in part by doing meta dives about other players with them and, also just seeing if they are actually willing to put the effort of meta exploration in with me. When I see what they come up with from reading some old ISOs, it helps me figure out both their alignment and how "on target" they are if they are town. In games where they play, you'll see much more emphasis on meta dives in my play.

Syr takes this level of misrepresentation about our play style as more evidence that you are scum. I'm still entertaining the possibility that your understanding of how I play could really be this superficial.

[Rift Adrift]

Such as?

Okay, let's do a little thought experiment, because you are being either exceptionally scummy or stupid today:

I am a scum Vanillaizer that can steal a role. I start the game knowing that there are 4 Cops, one of each sanity, playing a little side-game of Dethy, thanks to my scumbuddy in the group. We, as scum, now have this nifty tool that can fuck with them and cause chaos within their group.

Night 1 roles around. We decide, as a scum team, to shoot within the Dethy group because fuck cops (and we are aware of their plans to spread their investigations such that we can't use a tailor/traitor that we may or may not have to wreck them). What do I do?

I FUCKING STEAL ONE COP POWER AND HAVE MY SCUM TEAM KILL ANOTHER ONE TO GUARANTEE DENYING THE TOWN INSANELY USEFUL INFORMATION REGARDING THE RESOLUTION OF THE DETHY. I WOULD THEN BE ABLE TO FEED A SANITY TO MY SCUM PARTNER IN THE GROUP TO PUSH THE WHOLE "THIS VANILLAIZER THING IS A GAMBIT" IDEA. THAT IS WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WERE SCUM IN NAT'S POSITION, AND IT'S NOT EVEN A HARD CHOICE.

THEN ON DAY 2, EVEN UNDER PRESSURE I WOULDN'T CLAIM VANILLAIZER BECAUSE THE COP WOULD CLAIM THAT HE GOT VANILLAIZED. CONFIRMATION OF THAT ROLE ACTUALLY EXISTING WOULD RESOLVE THAT IT IS NOT A GAMBIT AND THE VANILLAIZER IS SCUM. I WOULD CLAIM SOMETHING – ANYTHING – ELSE.

^^ A thousand tims this.

[Rift Adrift]

@Aunt Jemima,

you express concern about the attempted counter wagon on PeregrineV. That wagon has both the confirmed town dead players on it. What do you make of that?

[Rift Adrift]

Unvote

Vote: Amrun

[Rift Adrift]

With reluctance.

[Rift Adrift]

My choices for lynch: a light scumread versus a townread. Both heads of this slot would rather a Syrup Lady or a P^5 lynch. But we thank you for making this easy.

Vote: Nati

Our choices are also light scum vs town read, but the players are reversed, hence our vote.

Would vote AJ. Would re-vote MS happily.

[Rift Adrift]

My confidence in some of your scumhunting abilities has taken a huge hit today. Not even going to comment on some of your townhunting abilities.

[Rift Adrift]

Not you.

[Rift Adrift]

Actually, is that to me? It assumes town so that's pretty strange.

It was mostly to Slandaar.

IMO you are more likely to be scum than Natirasha, but you are nowhere close to my top scum reads. They are non-starters today, which irks me immensely.

[Rift Adrift]

I would 150-200% lynch p5.

AJ is pretty fucking town after the whole "AJ is counterwagon to scum" thing.

explain this thing plz.

[Rift Adrift]

The aj wagon wasn't exactly last second.

[Rift Adrift]

The wagon picked up steam in response to the Zoidberg wagon, though.

"Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help" ~~ Hegel

[Rift Adrift]

Day 1 - Tiphaine and Xaio say that their roles confirm each other as town.

Day 1 - Tiphaine makes it pretty clear that Titus sent something/did something to him that confirmed Titus. Titus makes noises about heads exploding.

Day 2 - Xaio and Titus are both dead, flipped lovers.

I doubt figuring what those posts might mean and who was the safer target required scum genius.

[Rift Adrift]

Titus: Scum wouldn't care about protecting the Dethy scum cos hes a goon.

Rift/Rofl: Eh Na Titus is town.

lol

Then what the fuck are you doing?

[Rift Adrift]

ghost your scum play is so different from your town play

*Snicker, and then full blown laughter* Oh, Metal Sonic. You actually do fucking amuse me.

You've not seen my scum game yet, cupcake; but at least two people in this game have and they can fucking tell you this ain't it. You are fucking right on one particular: I've been told I'm really pathetically easy to catch as scum.

I have. DragonballZ. I didn't have you as scum for most of that game day. I was way more convinced that your partner was scum. It was the first game I'd played with you.

IMO, this is not your scum game. Not even close.

[Rift Adrift]

rift adrift and ghostly are scum together with amrun and zmuffin

falalala la la la la

I don't know what the fuck happened to you. It makes me sad, but you're still town and we're in this mess together. :/

[Rift Adrift]

drugs, my friend.

Drugs and the Slandaar effect, your brain must be cheez whiz by now!

[Rift Adrift]

I feel like it could slow down the process of the dethy sorting itself, which worries me a little.

[Rift Adrift]

I feel like it could slow down the process of the dethy sorting itself, which worries me a little.

Jesus fery, the dethy is slowing down the process of the dethy sorting itself. Nasty nommage ain't gonna change a bit.

Personally, I'd as soon see him eat Ghostlin. That way we have Ghostlin confirm him as town and we can stop all this "NATI IS SCUM AND HE SHOULD DIE CAUSE SETUP SPEC" bullshit.

[Rift Adrift]

I won't disagree that it's looking pretty dysfunctional.

p-edit. Nope. :/

[Rift Adrift]

grr

[Rift Adrift]

We vigged AJ.

[Rift Adrift]

I can't believe you two would do something so monumentally stupid >:C

We can't believe she flipped town. And we'd be after her again today if she were alive and not somehow confirmed town.

[Rift Adrift]

Also fuck all of you idiots who voted Nati.

[Rift Adrift]

10 people voted her. There were reasons.[/auote]

They were dumb, wrong reasons. Nati's play became obvtown with the puzzle piece that was his claimed rolle.

AJ had 1 vote --> stupid vig.

If it was stupidity, it was mutual stupidity.

[Rift Adrift]

Town has a one shot roleblocker/neighborizer. Through a concatenation of hilarious coincidences I know this. I was roleblockedj/neighborized on night 1.

[Rift Adrift]

Well GP wants to be a prick and not claim so....

pedit: How do you know those came from the same person, and how do you know the neighborizor is town?

The person claimed both.

As to their being town, it's not mod-confirmed.

[Rift Adrift]

Roleblocked neighborizer? So you were blocked night 1 and neighbored night 2?

neighborizing also role blocked. We received notice of having been neighborized at the start of day 1. The roleblock was evident from the lack of dead AJ on day 2. We used the neighborhood (actually a restaurant booth) QT on night 2, and in discussion the roleblock aspect of their neighborizing became obvious.

I'm not going to say who it was. I'll leave that up to the other player to claim now, or claim later.

So far, most if not all of the PRs have negative utility associated with them. We talked about the apparent overpoweredness of town last night, but the negative utility offsets that. Stuff like a claimed town PR getting fucking lynched because lol nowai that's a town role. Or a vengeful or vig potentially targeting town. Or lovers. Or dethys. Or a neigborizer that also roleblocks.

[Rift Adrift]

Well GP wants to be a prick and not claim so....

pedit: How do you know those came from the same person, and how do you know the neighborizor is town?

The person claimed both.

As to their being town, it's not mod-confirmed.

But you feel they are town?

Quite.

[Rift Adrift]

^That is also an acceptable vote.

But it's coming from someone that I think is scum.

What to do...

Muffin, Amrun, p5 are the lynches I'll support today. LISTEN TO MY READS GUYS, THEY TEND TO BE GOOD. ROFL ALSO HAD BOTH AMRUN AND MUFFIN AS SCUM, AND P5 TOWN ONLY BY POE. ROFL ALSO TENDS TO HAVE GOOD READS.

With some notable exceptions.

Of those lynches the only ones we'll accept are Amrun.

We'd prefer lynching MS. The only reason we didn't target him last night was to give the dethy's another night to sort your dysfunctional shit.

[Rift Adrift]

Roleblocked neighborizer? So you were blocked night 1 and neighbored night 2?

neighborizing also role blocked. We received notice of having been neighborized at the start of day 1. The roleblock was evident from the lack of dead AJ on day 2. We used the neighborhood (actually a restaurant booth) QT on night 2, and in discussion the roleblock aspect of their neighborizing became obvious.

I'm not going to say who it was. I'll leave that up to the other player to claim now, or claim later.

So far, most if not all of the PRs have negative utility associated with them. We talked about the apparent overpoweredness of town last night, but the negative utility offsets that. Stuff like a claimed town PR getting fucking lynched because lol nowai that's a town role. Or a vengeful or vig potentially targeting town. Or lovers. Or dethys. Or a neigborizer that also roleblocks.

Just noticed I mistyped. We received notice at the start of day 2, not day 1. The QT was closed until day 2 nightfall and our convo happened on night 2.

[Rift Adrift]

Baezu, that last point is crap. I pushed that line of thinking as well.

He could also have meta that he cannot talk about. For instance, he sees metal sonic flip town but the game is on-going. Plus, I don't know how much time elapsed between the claims of no finished games and his meta claim on MS. Bad all the way around there.


RA's actions since suggesting that town block have been pretty town. For now, I'll just put him as not trusting confalignment.


RA, how many vig shots do you have?

Not answering this.

[Rift Adrift]

Baezu, that last point is crap. I pushed that line of thinking as well.

He could also have meta that he cannot talk about. For instance, he sees metal sonic flip town but the game is on-going. Plus, I don't know how much time elapsed between the claims of no finished games and his meta claim on MS. Bad all the way around there.


RA's actions since suggesting that town block have been pretty town. For now,

I'll just put him as not trusting confalignment.

RA, how many vig shots do you have?

Not answering this.

Also I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say with the bolded.

[Rift Adrift]

I partially suspected you as scum RA because you wouldn't listen to TD when you were pretty sure he was town that I was town too. Your actions have been pretty town since that discussion so I'll just put it down as you not trusting your town read.

There is a huge difference between thinking that someone is town, and thinking that their reads or strategies are good. I make that distinction with my town reads.

[Rift Adrift]

right i'm trying to wrap my head around this.

am i right in saying bro and titus are conftown? or could this be incorrect? I wanted to throw RA in there too but I don't think that's the case.

I've claimed vig, claimed the AJ kill and am not counterclaimed. Yet, anyway.

Not conftown but I don't expect much more of the crap I put up with on day 2.

[Rift Adrift]

right i'm trying to wrap my head around this.

am i right in saying bro and titus are conftown? or could this be incorrect? I wanted to throw RA in there too but I don't think that's the case.

I've claimed vig, claimed the AJ kill and am not counterclaimed. Yet, anyway.

Not conftown but I don't expect much more of the crap I put up with on day 2.

why did you say yet?

dark humor.

question 2: how did titus become conftown and how did we figure out bro was paranoid?

On day 1, Titus gave a bomb to Tiphaine (and crumbed it). Tiphaine acknowledged receipt in the thread. Tiphaine also indicated role-related reasons for him and Xiao knowing each other were town.

They both died N1 and flipped as town lovers.

[Rift Adrift]

Nah Slandaar, between you and BRO. we're thinking you.

But, let's talk about who outside the dethy is scum.

Mac, how caught up are you?

[Rift Adrift]

Nah Slandaar, between you and BRO. we're thinking you.

How does my day 1 play with Zoidberg make any sense if I'm scum?

It doesn't. Hence we are thinking Slandaar is scum.

[Rift Adrift]

Though I could get really paranoid about how quickly you pointed that out. :/

[Rift Adrift]

Oh, I thought you meant "thinking you as scum

."

Also I'm investigated Muffin last night and got guilty, again. Even though I'm almost certainly paranoid, I'm going to keep using my power because why not.

Also GP didn't reveal who they investigated night 2 ever which still pisses me off.

huh?

[Rift Adrift]

VOTE: Slandaar

Come on. Really, Bro's been practically clear for awhile. Slandaar spent a hell of a lot of time derailing any thought that vanillaizer was a town role and then MS gets Vanillaized.

They would not have stolen MS's ability unless he was sane or insane. Therefore,

I like Stubbs as scum

and Ghostly Penguin as sane.

Amrun is also likely scum.



MS, poor MS.

If he flips scum, the I told you so on that one will be deafening.

[Rift Adrift]

Three dead and a paranoid forces Slandaar into the scum role. He doesn't want to give us more information. Can we flashwagon him?

I'd like for all the players to put some thoughts down about non-dethy scum first.

[Rift Adrift]

oh

Vote: Slandaar

that feels so good

But, let's talk about who outside the dethy is scum.

amrun. pv. if there's another, then maybe mac.

I don't like how Stubbs became all but worthless after Zoidberg's flip. The thing that holds me back on that is the way Stubbs repeatedly tried to get me to reevaluate Zoidberg. Encryptor is a powerful scum ability. Sooo.

- Zoidberg aggressively goes after Stubbs
- Stubbs keeps yelling that he's being misrepped
- Zoidberg switches to BRO
- BRO reaches out specifically to Syr because tenements
- Slandaar outs that there's a dethy and they think BRO is the scum member
- I jump to the conclusion that Zoidberg knew what was going on in the dethy qt
- ROFL confirms
- BRO lynch is a no go
- Zoidberg wagon eventually goes to a lynch

So. Does it make sense that Zoidberg would bus before the dethy boils over? Could be.

Does it make sense that Stubbs would fight that hard over being bussed? Not really. If Stubbs had an even more valuable scum role - say vanillaizer - then I don't think he would have been a bus target in the first place.

[Rift Adrift]

I still don't know why in God's name I'm alive. Scum SHOULD have killed me.


Slandaar, you never corrected that. GP never corrected that. MS never corrected that. It's pretty much a certain statement that ROFL had an innocent.

I thought ROFL didn't share his N1 result with the dethy?

[Rift Adrift]

ROFL confirms

That's not accurate. It wasn't a confirm. ROFL said that he'd been wondering the same thing based on the timing of Zoidberg's attack on BRO.

[Rift Adrift]

Does it make sense that Stubbs would fight that hard over being bussed? Not really. If Stubbs had an even more valuable scum role - say vanillaizer - then I don't think he would have been a bus target in the first place.

Scum theatre?

Maybe. There weren't many at that point thinking Stubbs was scum. I was getting a ton of flack and pressure to back off our vote. Some of the pressure was from players who have flipped town.

[Rift Adrift]

I still don't know why in God's name I'm alive. Scum SHOULD have killed me.


Slandaar, you never corrected that. GP never corrected that. MS never corrected that. It's pretty much a certain statement that ROFL had an innocent.

The usual answers to that question sound something like "because I'm sooooooo on the wrong track".

[Rift Adrift]

We didn't mass claim.

[Rift Adrift]

We're probably not going there today. That was brought up on the much-abbreviated day 3.

[Rift Adrift]

Yeah, Slandaar is scum.

I still want this day to go on for a bit so we can talk about who else is scum.

I think mass claim should wait until tomorrow though. Does anyone disagree with that?

[Rift Adrift]

I like Slandaar as the deathy scum. However, we should cover our bases in the RARE event that Slandaar is not scum. This should be done before the massclaim as massclaim gives Slandaar the convinent out of checking the most guilty player and say "Whoops my reads were obviously wrong".

Stubbs''s Post is just awkward. Why didn't you CC nati during all that time Nati was the focus? Why didn't you say it's possible there is a town chocolate zombie AND I am the town chocolate zombie? Your claim comes after the fact. Why?

Also, why wouldn't you take my ability as you are a prime candidate for a mislynch?

Instead, you take Slandaar's ability to probably save the rolecop for the scums in case the deathy tells you to go to hell? I Do Not Like This.

Agreed. And now it seems even worse that you held on to that piece of information until now. If you had cc'ed, then it may have been believable, but now?

And why didn't you out the possibility that there was such a role as chocolate zombie when most of the votes on Nati were due to the fact that we did not believe that role existed for town?

I could believe that you are a chocolate zombie as well, but I do not believe that you're aligned with town.

VOTE: Stubbs

It sure looks like you are claiming scum here. This is a logic fail of epic proportions.

If it was scum's goal to salvage the rolecop abillity before Slandaar was lynched...WHY WOULD EITHER SLANDAAR OR STUBBS ANNOUNCE IT IN THE GAME THREAD??

[Rift Adrift]

If I am missing something obvious, please enlighten me.

[Rift Adrift]

can we not lynch or modkill anyone until i am caught up, thank you.

How long do you think 90-ish pages will take to digest?

[Rift Adrift]

We're not lynching Stubbs today. Slandaar is obvscum being obvious.

[Rift Adrift]

@Baezu, then what were you trying to say, and how would it justify voting Stubbs?

[Rift Adrift]

I think I epically failed at getting my meaning across in this post. It made sense in my head but when I tried to put it in words I obviously failed. Lolol sorry guys!

[Rift Adrift]

I don't believe the role cop bit. My line if reasoning was: if I were town chocolate zombie and another person came out that they were also chocolate zombie and people expressed doubt that the role existed and was indeed town I would then claim. This way there would be two claims for town chocolate zombies so when one was lynched people would be more likely to believe in my claim. Claiming the day after seems like something scum would do because we wouldn't likely lynch that claim at this point since we know it exists in town form and we made a mistake with it yesterday.

This is why your thoughts about what you would do if you were also a town chocolate zombie are not necessarily predictive of what another player with the role would think:

If you had that sort of role - something unusual that doesn't often show up in a game, and someone else claimed to be the same thing, you'd probably assume that at least the role part is true, if not the alignment part. And knowing you are town, you'd probably suspect the other player is scum unless you had a strong town read on them for other reasons.

So, this player is being run up and looks like the lynch. If you counterclaim or corroborate (either one), you might change the lynch. And thn what? If the player is town, then one of you is likely to be the NK. If the player is scum, then you could be the NK.

If they are lynched, then you WILL get to use your ability that night. And you might be able to find scum with it. And you might trade it for a more useful-to-town role.

And that scenario appears to be what happened.

Titus is working from the assumption that Stubbs would eventually be lynchable, and that he'd also BELIEVE himself to eventually be lynchable.

You are working from the assumption that counterclaiming was the most protown of the alternatives.

Neither of those assumptions are necessarily the ONLY way a town PR would think in this situation. And IMO the way Stubbs apparently thought about this WAS protown.

[Rift Adrift]

Actually could you explain the role cop thing to me? I'm confused about where that came from/what it is.

Role cops learn the player's role (but not their alignment - though it may be strongly implied) when they investigate.

Rolecop views the vig, they get back "vigilante".

Role cop views mafia tracker OR town tracker, they get back "tracker".

role cop views vanilla town or mafia goon, they get back "vanilla".

(This is how I've seen the role work, anyway).

Role cop can be any alignment. It's usually a more useful role for scum (unless it's a multiball game) because they know that most if not all players not on their team are town.

[Rift Adrift]

If Slandaar is at L-2 DO NOT VOTE HIM. He can self-hammer.

In fact, just don't vote him right now period.

[Rift Adrift]

Is there some reason that Amrun has fallen off the radar as a scum candidate?

[Rift Adrift]

Is there some reason that Amrun has fallen off the radar as a scum candidate?

Well he was never really on my radar actually.

That was addressed to everyone.

[Rift Adrift]

If Slandaar is at L-2 DO NOT VOTE HIM. He can self-hammer.

In fact, just don't vote him right now period.

if he self hammers and he's scum what's the loss? And I don't think he'd self hammer as town.

Two reasons. It cuts the game day short when some players have contributed pretty much nothing to the day (Amrun and PeregrineV for instance, but also Oriole). And Mac is still trying to catch up and may have more questions that could be answerd before night phase.

A self-hammer will deprive town of a bit of bandwagon analysis info, but if he wants to self-hammer there's not much we can do but avoid giving him the opporunity until TOWN is ready for the day to end.

[Rift Adrift]

Beazu, I kinda expected you to have something in response to my post [post]3272]/post].

Thought Titus might, also.

[Rift Adrift]

@Stubbs, Titus is very unlikely IMO. Faulty logic, and expecting everyone to see the game state the same way she does is not inherently scummy.

Baezu is possible. I'd PoE'd her out of my scumpile partly via metadive on day 2, but two of our scumpicks at that point in time were erroneous. And one of our townpicks as sell (Slandaar).

[Rift Adrift]

could someone tell me what titus' exact role is?

stubbs - the answer to this will depend on my plan of action for this game and whether or not i read titus as scum

If Titus ever said exactly what the role is called, I don't remember it. She had 2 one shot reflexive abilities she could bestow on any player, including herself. A bomb (exploding vest activated by NK), and a vengeful (activated by lynch). Tiphaine tacitly confirmed the bomb on day 1. The fact that he and Xiao didn't vote her on day 2 after they died night 1 further confirms that the exploding vest gift was real.