A Pie Vig Rant! (tm)

[Pie_is_good]

That's right, kids, it's time for another schooling on vig theory from Pie.

"But Pie," you say, "You've already been so incredibly right on two occasions, what possibly could be left for you to be right about?"

And I say to you, shut the hell up and be more patient. I'll get there eventually.

The topic this time:

Viges should be directed by the town at the end of every day.

This is based off a similar principle as the other two vig rants - The vig role should be treated as simulating a lynch, rather than an independant but town-interested killer. The town's attempt at vig-directing, except potentially in endgames, will be about as accurate as the vig's attempt (more opinions and observations is a plus, group including scum is a minus). It will yield the same information as a lynch, even if that information comes a day later. The town is also more likely to direct away from power roles.

A straight-up vig kill, on the other hand, yields less information - the death was not discussed, and all opinions thereof are taken postmortem. The shot is more likely to hit power roles - an individual is more likely to miss breadcrumbing or generally have less information than a town pooling their knowledge.

It improves accuracy of the vig and information given to the town (when there is a vig, practically 2 lynches per day), at very little cost. The major drawback is Mafia Doctors and Un-NKable scum roles, but both are relatively uncommon, similar roles exist on the town's side, and neither outweigh the benefits.

Conclusion: Pie is right again.

Pie

[Kelly Chen]

You went with this? This is nothing. I believe I offered you these superior suggestions in chat:

1. Protown players should spend most of their time campaigning for doc protection

2. The town should repeatedly vote NL until lylo

3. Vigs should suicide N0 if allowed

[Patrick]

I agree with what pie said. That was easy.

[IH]

Pie I can't believe it! You were right again! What else can you be right about?

[Turbovolver]

But that's no fun...

[Primate]

If the town picks someone I don't think is scum, then I'm not going to vig them. Not to mention the fact that this entire discussion would make it

so

easy to pick out the vig it's silly.

[Yosarian2]

If the town picks someone I don't think is scum, then I'm not going to vig them.

Truth.

Anyway, are you suggesting that the town do this after a vig is out, or when a vig is suspected to exist, or basically every day that a vig might exist? Becasue at least discussing/suggesting the vig target after the vig is out is pretty common practice, AFAIK.

[Fritzler]

i disagree sir, but ill defend to the death your right to say it

unless i kill you at night

[Pie_is_good]

If the town picks someone I don't think is scum, then I'm not going to vig them. Not to mention the fact that this entire discussion would make it

so

easy to pick out the vig it's silly.

Not really. All the town has to do is decide on two lynches before the day is up, and the vig will carry out one of said lynches. It would be cause for no more vig-pointery than any other lynch would, if executed properly.

And I believe I just spent a first post disagreeing with your first sentence.

[Kelly Chen]

On the other hand, the vig has some information in knowing he himself is protown, and also the scum don't have any direct control over the vig's personal preference.

[klebian]

If the town picks someone I don't think is scum, then I'm not going to vig them. Not to mention the fact that this entire discussion would make it

so

easy to pick out the vig it's silly.

Not really. All the town has to do is decide on two lynches before the day is up, and the vig will carry out one of said lynches. It would be cause for no more vig-pointery than any other lynch would, if executed properly.

And I believe I just spent a first post disagreeing with your first sentence.

And if town picks the vig?

[HezLucky]

um...hello? fake claims?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm still gonna kill you at night, Pie, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Mr Stoofer]

This conversation is evidence of the validity of Stoofer's 3rd law -- a vig power in the wrong hands (e.g. mine -- I've never vigged scum yet) can cause more damage to the town than benefit.

[Primate]

If the town picks someone I don't think is scum, then I'm not going to vig them. Not to mention the fact that this entire discussion would make it

so

easy to pick out the vig it's silly.

Not really. All the town has to do is decide on two lynches before the day is up, and the vig will carry out one of said lynches. It would be cause for no more vig-pointery than any other lynch would, if executed properly.

And I believe I just spent a first post disagreeing with your first sentence.

When you have that many people talking about the correct way to use a role, for that amount of time, the way people act will give it away, even if it's by the way that several non-vigs act, and not just a carefree vig. It's idealistic.

Also, If I think someone is town and the power is entirely in my hands to kill that someone, then why would I kill someone I think is town? for information, you say. So, what you're saying is that you think that the additional information gained via a the voting pattern leading up to lynch is a decent substitute for the life of a townie. I disagree.

Of course, you're entirely justified in saying that I'm being a little egotistical, thinking my opinion is worth more than that of the town. Thing is, though, if I'm going to vig someone, I will do several hours of playstyle research, and will reread the thread several times, making damn sure that my opinion on that person isn't fleeting, and that I really am as sure as I think I am. I make sure that my opinion is more informed and well thought out than anyone else in the game. Then, unless I'm 80%+ sure, I still don't vig them. Azwolging is fun and all, but it's also really selfish.

I think the only 'duty' a vig has to a town, the only real need it can easily fill for a town, is clearing away people who are near certain lynches in the future, even over people it thinks are scum. This is the only circumstance I can think of offhand where I'd vig someone I don't think pro-town. This doesn't come up often though, a lot happens overnight, and people are calmer at the beginning of a new day. But anyway.

I guess this is kind of similar to the question 'If you were a governer, would you stop the lynch on someone you thought pro-town'? I probably would, especially if we had had another lynch previous.

[Fircoal]

I argee more with Pie.

[Thesp]

The topic this time:

Viges should be directed by the town at the end of every day.

Of course. 'Cause then you look at the people who weren't directing the vig, and logic dictates those people must be scum.

This conversation is evidence of the validity of Stoofer's 3rd law -- a vig power in the wrong hands (e.g. mine -- I've never vigged scum yet) can cause more damage to the town than benefit.

I would argue that killing (particularly vigging) unconfirmeds who happen to be town may not be inherently bad.

[Pie_is_good]

And if town picks the vig?

Well, the prospective vig target would claim first just as any lynchee would. If the town picks a vig in this manner, it should be treated as any lynch would (see: viewtopic.php?t=3499)

um...hello? fake claims?

Hi! and what about them?

I'm still gonna kill you at night, Pie, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Kill you first!

This conversation is evidence of the validity of Stoofer's 3rd law -- a vig power in the wrong hands (e.g. mine -- I've never vigged scum yet) can cause more damage to the town than benefit.

'zactly. Which is why the target should be decided by everyone; not just a potentially suck-vig.

When you have that many people talking about the correct way to use a role, for that amount of time, the way people act will give it away, even if it's by the way that several non-vigs act, and not just a carefree vig. It's idealistic.

Which is exactly why the conversation doesn't go that way. Just "lynch" two people each day, except don't actually lynch one of them. The most suspicious dies by lynching, the second is the theoretical vig's target.

Also, If I think someone is town and the power is entirely in my hands to kill that someone, then why would I kill someone I think is town? for information, you say. So, what you're saying is that you think that the additional information gained via a the voting pattern leading up to lynch is a decent substitute for the life of a townie. I disagree.

Your first half is correct, but you draw a wildly wrong conclusion. I'm saying two things--
-The decision that the town makes is more accurate than the decision you (the vig) will make
-The decision that the town makes yields more information than the decision you (the vig) will make

...Your ending sentence implies 100% accuracy on the part of the vig, which is completely unrealistic.

Of course, you're entirely justified in saying that I'm being a little egotistical, thinking my opinion is worth more than that of the town. Thing is, though, if I'm going to vig someone, I will do several hours of playstyle research, and will reread the thread several times, making damn sure that my opinion on that person isn't fleeting, and that I really am as sure as I think I am. I make sure that my opinion is more informed and well thought out than anyone else in the game. Then, unless I'm 80%+ sure, I still don't vig them. Azwolging is fun and all, but it's also really selfish.

Then you are a very informed vig; good for you. Feel free to contribute that kind of effort to the town, but the fact remains - multiple opinions will be more accurate than your opinion alone, and if you make decisions defying the crowd just because you, personally, disagree - I think

that's

being a little egotistical.

I think the only 'duty' a vig has to a town, the only real need it can easily fill for a town, is clearing away people who are near certain lynches in the future, even over people it thinks are scum. This is the only circumstance I can think of offhand where I'd vig someone I don't think pro-town. This doesn't come up often though, a lot happens overnight, and people are calmer at the beginning of a new day. But anyway.

Yes, I'd agree. In fact, I'd argue that that's the only thing the vig should do - shoot after future lynches. Which is why telling the vig where the future lynches are likely to be is a good move.

I guess this is kind of similar to the question 'If you were a governer, would you stop the lynch on someone you thought pro-town'? I probably would, especially if we had had another lynch previous.

I vaguely considered writing about that once. I'd say the governor role should be played like a townie, except in the case of quicklynches.

[win]

I argee more with Pie.

[/win]

I would argue that killing (particularly vigging) unconfirmeds who happen to be town may not be inherently bad.

I completely agree. In scenarios in which you can be reasonably sure that even a confirmed will be lynched the next day, I'd argue it's sometimes worth shooting confirmeds as well. (see: viewtopic.php?t=3499)

[IH]

My actual stance on this is to let the vig kill anonymously until the vig is claimed.

Of course this may defeat the purpose of that whole rant.