Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[Street Hassle]

hi guys

That was a hydra slip record.

[Street Hassle]

There are two.

Street Hassle = Empire & fferyllt

Herself = Pirate Mollie and Desperado

[Street Hassle]

Unvote: TSO
Vote: Herself

A bit of sheeping, and a bit of fantasy removal of anti-fun fears, and a bit of early wagon, win/win/win!

Yabbut desp is looking pretty town here.

[Street Hassle]

Yabbut desp is looking pretty town here.

Who do you think looks scummy? For a vote and a pistachio maybe I'll sheep you.

If I had a scumread, I'd be voting it.

Right now, what I see are some null posts and some posts that kinda look town.

[Street Hassle]

Hey Mollie, I think I've found some town.

[Street Hassle]

Which comment? Before or after ICEninja voted me?

[Street Hassle]

I both townhunt and scumhunt in mafia. Usually, but not always, I spot town players before homing in on scum because my methods of reading and sorting tend to work out that way.

Desp looks pretty town so far. Hoping some interaction with Mollie will help cement that read.

ICEninja was already giving off paranoid town vibes before the vote. And Squirrel Girl has an easy open vibe that also feels pretty town.

[Street Hassle]

Hmm. I guess we just diametrically oppose in how we think information should flow here. Town hunt all you want. I'd rather you keep the results to yourself.

That's cool, but don't call me out for being ambiguous if you want me to keep results to myself.

[Street Hassle]

Hi.

Banksys Flareon is scum.

Vote: Banksys Flareon

Agree with my other head that Squirrel Girl / Herself / ICEninja are town.

This message brought to you by #TeamRekt.

[Street Hassle]

I feel Squirrel Girl's vibe, but I can't say it feels as towny as others find it.

Ok what exactly do you mean here by "feel Squirrel Girl's vibe?"

Can't get a read on Street Hassle yet, if it were later in the day I might have to think more about following him votewise...but it's page 2 and it might be because I haven't played with a hydra before, at least not knowingly.

Why do you feel the need to justify the early game nature of your vote?

.Fferylt and Empire(street hassle) are power houses I'm a bit curious why they waited for someone else to vote Banksy first. Through it could be they had to discuss it.

ffery and I did manage to talk about this vote last night and she seemed to agree with it (though we were both drunk at the time >_>).
I found the way she approached her back-and-forth with my other head way too careful. "I find it odd" / "The way you put it was especially weird" (as opposed to just straight up calling things suspicious / scummy) actually reminds me of the shit I do as scum when I want to sound sincere / considerate but in actuality am setting up for cautious play that doesn't make any waves.
There are also some meta reasons behind it but I'd rather keep those close to my chest for right now.

ffery wants to know why you're calling us powerhouses even though we have both have no completed games together. Personally, while I'd love the notion that legend of my greatness has proliferated like wildfire, I too would like to know where you're getting this here.

[Street Hassle]

Me? Boring?

[Street Hassle]

Your face is boring.

Aside from SG how are you feeling about our other reads? What are your thoughts on Orestes? Fitz? Banksys?

[Street Hassle]

also empire promised a snazzy night on the town and he shows up in a bathrobe, bedroom slippers and 3 day old beard? pffttt...

Sorry for not being particularly fashionable (also, you better not be hating on my 2 posts so far because they owned mega hard).

You should read that Orestes wall, it's pretty town.

[Street Hassle]

You got an acorn of alternate viewpoints there?

Yup.

I asked him the question I did in my #62 because I found that quoted line of his suspicious - it felt like he was preemptively defending himself from an accusation that might have been made against him but wasn't (e.g., the accusation that he's following a player he has no read on). I liked his response that he was just posting what was on his mind without really thinking of the consequences, shows a lack of a filter that scum usually have in place because they tend to care a lot more about the potential backlash a post can receive.

I didn't see Orestes's "fair enough" comment as an acceptance of the argument but rather more of a "I see how you got to that conclusion"-type of reaction and his explanation of why he chose to put down another vote on the Banksys wagon makes sense to me (wanting to concentrate votes onto one wagon).

I disagree completely that his post was a whole lot of nothing and I actually liked his comment that he has no problem going against a wagon on you, shows that he actually cares about his opinions even if they differ from the norm. The post was a little bit heavy on the defense and a less so on the proactive scumhunting end but I think that's an extension of the fact that he was drawing suspicion. Interested in seeing where he goes from here.

[Street Hassle]

I find it to be a hugely defensive post filled with lots of 'will explain more later' promises.

The promises to do better later are why I'm waiting for more from him.

Empire this townread sucks. Can you please start doing better so that we can focus on the real threats and not get distracted by getting weird on you two? Ffery looks town and you're ruining it.

Like I give a rat's ass about whether you think my opinion sucks. Your inability to read me correctly is your problem, not mine.

[Street Hassle]

You might ought to reconsider that townread then because I agree with the conclusion about post 62 though my processing was a little different.

[Street Hassle]

Yawn.

You said you liked this response because it showed that he didn't have a filter, which trends town for you--the problem is that he was actually telling, not showing. He also mentions again that he was drunk before. He's giving excuses and he's overemphasizing how not-worried he is about it. That's not town.

I don't care that he mentioned it more than once. He mentions having been drunk when writing his first post three times in its entirety; I don't see it as overemphasis.
And of course the dude is going to mention his (lack of) sobriety having impacted his first post, just as I mentioned ffery and I having been drunk when we spoke about our reads. That's not "giving excuses", the guy actually addressed the reason he wrote the line I questioned him about head on rather than just being "lol I was drunk" (if he had told me to disregard what he had said before due to his drunkenness,

then

he'd be making excuses for his posts). The being drunk thing was part of his explanation but not the entirety of it, though it was the fact that he didn't feel the need to edit the post that struck me as town.
Really, the above applies to his responses to everyone: he's not saying to disregard first post due to his drunkenness (which would be making excuses), he mentions it as an addendum to his refutation.

What is the difference between "okay fair enough" and "I can see how you got to that conclusion? Like, for you to even make that distinction and then pretend that it's a towntell is crazy. And your final paragraph is even worse--you "completely disagree" that his post was a whole lot of nothing, and then acknowledge that it was entirely self-defense and devoid of any scumhunting. Of course it's an extension of the fact that he's drawing suspicion--but now that he's awake and sober why is he choosing to spend his time defending himself from light suspicion in favor of looking for scum? His scumread hadn't posted since he voted him and he's arrived at no other reads.

If you had actually bothered to read the words that are coming out of my virtual mouth, you'd see that I said the distinction was actually between accepting the argument as true and seeing how the other person got to that argument. The latter is not an admission, the former is (the former being the scummy thing).
I don't see self-defense as "a whole lot of nothing" as I think anything that sheds light into someone's alignment is content. I made the comment about defense vs. scumhunting because I felt that his focus is off and should be shifted from the former to the latter. This is why I want to give him some space so he can move on and I can see where his scumhunting takes him.

Come on man. Why are you townreading him, really?

Try reading this time, once more, with feeling.

[Street Hassle]

has any1 answered for the other reasons as to why there is a bw on bankerys like empire did you answer this already

I explained why here. If you're going to call me boring, at least read my posts before doing so.

[Street Hassle]

so you have played with bankerys before?

I haven't but I've read all three of her games (though I still need to talk to ffery about them, haven't had the time yet). I'd rather talk about the meta stuff later if you don't mind.

[Street Hassle]

Uh, just before I voted her? Duh?

[Street Hassle]

You do realize the post in which I had voted her was my very first post of the game, right?

And you'd be amazed at how much I can read in how short of a time.

[Street Hassle]

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

[Street Hassle]

I still don't like Orestes, but I'll give him some time to "go into some more next post", cause I'd really want to hear his reasoning about Banksy.

Also, Herself is really confusing with one head posting content that is actually readable and the other, I feel, kind of the opposite. One head to come across as town and the other to hunt scum?

Two different styles of play and scumhunting. It's actually a good thing IMO that their posts are recognizable.

Thoughts on other players?

[Street Hassle]

One of Empire's claims to fame is his attention to meta analysis.

I also depend on meta to some extent, but don't do nearly the thorough job of the serious ms meta players.

TSO's lack of presence is a little concerning, but he'll probably get a prod pretty soon. Kid A is a possibility, but if I were to move our vote, I'd probably look Fitz' direction. I think he's been sliiiiiigthly more scummy.

I'm till townreading ICEninja, so can't get behind wagonning him.

But I see no reason to get off the banksys wagon.

[Street Hassle]

Empire has stated that he read all three games.

He and I haven't discussed his findings in detail. When that happens you'll get more about banksys from us.

My reasons for supporting her vote are in this thread.

[Street Hassle]

Why didn't Empire discuss it with you when you guys decided to place the vote?

"in detail"

We decided to place the vote almost entirely because of what was in the game thread. Empire's meta dive supports that (even the little bit we've already discussed), but what's in the thread is more than adequate for my vote.

[Street Hassle]

What non-detail bits did you all discuss?

If I wanted to give banksys a sneak preview I would have done so.

[Street Hassle]

@TSO - It was a sort of mondogreen more than a pun I think since actually my implication was that you did the pun. It might best be just generally classified as wit though, it isn't a pun.
So was the vote just for OMGUS or do I need to react to it?

@Hassle - So, even though you're voting him over it you're incapable of discussing it until the other head shows up? That feels contrived and fake to me.

Unvote: ICEninja
Vote: Street Hassle

Not incapable. The subtext wasn't all that obscure.

I'm not willing to give banksys hints on how to look less scummy to us just yet.

[Street Hassle]

Alright well people are asking why there is a wagon on Banksys. How about you try

actually reading my posts

, yeah? I'm sorry if it takes SO much effort to look at the vote count to see who is voting them, then SO much effort to look at my 7 posts and find which one I vote him in. But try.

That being said I'll admit it isn't exactly an overwhelming case. Just something he posted that bugged me.

This discussion around Orestes is bugging me more, though. Street has a town read (which I think is kind of meh, Orestes isn't scummy but I didn't find his posts that great either) and Herself is attempting to discredit the town read without actually scum hunting Orestes.

Why do you feel the need to discredit a town read while simultaneously not address or scum hunt the player in question? Furthermore, you do this without even holding a legitimate vote. Do you find Orestes

scummy

? If so, why is your vote still random? If you DON'T find him scummy then why are you attacking someone for town reading a non-scummy player?

Banksys I'm expecting a response from you when you get back in here...but for now:

Unvote Banksys Flareon, vote Herself

.

1) The fitz vote was never random.

^^ good.

2) Orestes promised more content already--I don't think he needs another voice hounding him to provide it. Once he does I'll start evaluating that.
3) The content he has provided has been null and Empire's townread on him is fucking retarded.

Not retarded. A hell of a lot more sensitve scumdar/towndar than yours or mine. Which is part of the reason why I'm very happy to have the opportunity to hydra with him.

4) I'm attacking Empire for townreading a null read because the weight he is applying to the read does not match Orestes' content. It is clinically insane to have read Orestes' wall and call it "pretty town"

- Des

If we're wrong, we're wrong and we'll eventually adjust. But, objectively, the reasons I have to lean scum on fitz based on his first 2 posts are roughly as strong as the reasons to lean town on Orestes.

[Street Hassle]

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

I am trying to point out that your case for reading her as scum sounds about as fabricated and forced as your town read on orestes.

We'll have to disagree for now then.

[Street Hassle]

@ Street: I want to work with Kid A, Garmr, SG, and Ice today. Do any of them miss the cut for you two?

@ SG: Do you agree that there are situations where it benefits town to not talk about things? If so, can we table Street and look elsewhere?

- Des

Kid A is in our null pile. You have a town read?

We need to read a just-finished scum game of Garmr's, but currently like him for town. Empire scanned the game and said that Garmr was surprisingly good in that game.

We'll see if SG manages to adust to our winsome ways, I guess. ICEninja has our undying love atm.

[Street Hassle]

What non-detail bits did you all discuss?

This right here was you asking me for my thumbnail, not for the detailed read. It's at that point that I decided our discussion was a waste of my time and potentially detrimental to my refining our banksys read.

[Street Hassle]

Want to compare notes on what specifically was off about Fitz' first two posts?

[Street Hassle]

Want to compare notes on what specifically was off about Fitz' first two posts?

#6 - Quoting your hydra slip and then asking "on a serious note" if there are any hydras.

#9 - The way he asked SG if our presence in the game was a problem. It felt like Fitz was inviting SG to say yes and tell us all about it, and inviting someone to drop a drama bomb is not conducive to a town victory.

- Des

Aw man, I was hoping you'd let me do one and you the other.

I thought the playful vote and the serious question in the same post was incongruous.

And on #9, that's precisely what I didn't like.

Every RVS is different, of course, but these two posts came off much less I dunno...open? than the first game fitz and I played. He voted me in that game, too.

[Street Hassle]

Why do you need to "refine" it? And if you're going to refine it, what is the danger of expressing it in a raw form? Clearly the raw form you heard at least didn't scream out to you as being obviously wrong, so what is the danger in presenting that when asked and then coming in with the more polished one later? I personally think you are making the whole conversation up.

What part of NOT TELLING BANKSYS WHAT BEHAVIORS THEY SHOULD CHANGE YET do you not understand?

As far as making the convo up, you're welcome to your opinion. I think this discussion is finished for now.

[Street Hassle]

SG: I mean like the day phase, and I'm advocating that we do advance policy lynches until we get those slots to produce content. We need to start doing that now if we hope to get to everyone before the deadline.

Street: Here's SK-Fitz in Castle:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=30429

- Des

I don't think I've seen you advocate something like this before. Is it because of the slow start?

[Street Hassle]

Yes.

Empire and I will discuss.

[Street Hassle]

We're keeping our vote where it is.

[Street Hassle]

@Street...what about desp/Herself is "looking pretty town?"

Desp's first three posts, in particular 15 paralleled my thoughts about the posts he was responding to. And, his overall vibe was curious and analytical, which I associate with town-Desp. His vote on you also felt right. If I had been playing solo, I would have been sorely tempted to srs vote you when I saw your first two posts, though you would probably have gotten a pass because I proceed with caution when I think someone voting me looks scummy, even in RVS.

@Street...who is the town you told Mollie/Herself that you found?

My 32 answered this question. So did Empire's 43. Your question has a perfunctory vibe. If you were weighing our posts as carefully as you say, you should have noticed this.

@Street...could you elaborate on your Banksys scum read? (Same question to Orestes)

Empire's 62 will have to do for now.

#6...as I was not aware Street was a fferly+Empire hydra..seeing a quote of a post (that did not exist) by a player not even in the game was confusing...as I pointed out. And as we were on the subject of hydras and I only recognized 2-3 players...the "Are there any hydras" was a legitimate question that iirc I ask on occasion. So post 1 over analysis on me seems ridiculous and malicious.

Noted. I didn't notice that F16 had deleted my hydra slip post so quickly.

For that matter...Street...can you explain what your link to our first game indicated to you?

 

That you seem more tense and jumpy in your first posts of this game than in that one. It's a small point, though.

[Street Hassle]

Herself, hypothetical question: Fitz gets shot by a day vig right now. Where does your vote go?

Milked Eek.

I haven't synched with mollie but I think I got the same form of the willies from his prod dodge that she did.

- Des

It's the general case of which food tell is a subset.

[Street Hassle]

And I linked the game to Castle mafia so they could look at another one of your scum openings--the similarities between your opening posts in both games are disturbing.

This might interest you. Here are some of this dude's games (ffery and I are talking about this right now):

TOWN: Open 479, Mini 1480
SCUM: Mini 1407 (need to find a second scum game as I'm not sure that him-as-SK in Castle qualifies)

The main difference I see is that he's a lot more focused in catch-up and there's a lot less of a whirlwind, feel-the-need-to-comment-on-everything approach when he's town (basically, there's a lot more IIoA when he's scum). ffery described it as his catch-ups are more digestible when he's town as there's more of what he thinks and less empty questioning. I'm getting the vibe that his wall was a lot more like his scumwalls in the past.

My other main issue with him is the apparent lack of deviation from the norm. Putting aside that there's a lot of discussion in that post that's already been tread on, his reads tend to match the consensus almost exactly.

The end result is that ffery and I are both stuck lamenting that we don't have two votes

[Street Hassle]

@ empire

what is with the cold shoulder. I have been good. I have been patient. I was so looking forward to playing with you and so far it has been lackluster. what is your read on us? have you given 1 yet?

...really? Consider that your other head acted like a colossal douchebag towards me yesterday and then

maybe

you can understand why I've been giving your slot the cold shoulder.

And about my read on you guys: seriously, I'm tired of answering questions whose answers should be evident from my posts.

[Street Hassle]

Maybe I have a more positive read on him simply because his own reads line up so tight with mine, and I feel like his Herself vote was completely justified (and not just by OMGUS but, but by Herself trying to make a case out of page 1 posts where one of which was a perfectly fine post and the other was just run-of-the-mill page 1 filler).

what if I told you that fitz's vote on me is the safest vote he can possibly make since he has voted me

in nearly every single game

we have ever been in so there is zero accountability there? the only reason he did vote me in 2 rooms was cos he was lynched before he realised majiffy and I were a hydra.

if we were dayvigged right now and you finally had to face the fact that you have been tunneling on town for shoddy reasons who would you go after next?

@ empire

what is with the cold shoulder. I have been good. I have been patient. I was so looking forward to playing with you and so far it has been lackluster. what is your read on us? have you given 1 yet?

We've both stated our read on you. Way back on page 2 :/

32, 43 - our early town reads

As far as cold shoulder goes, ISO yourself. ISO us. Or hell, dual ISO and look at the conversation.

[Street Hassle]

I'm willing to work with you provided you can tell your other head to actually reign his shit in a little.

[Street Hassle]

@ empire

what is with the cold shoulder. I have been good. I have been patient. I was so looking forward to playing with you and so far it has been lackluster. what is your read on us? have you given 1 yet?

...really? Consider that your other head acted like a colossal douchebag towards me yesterday and then

maybe

you can understand why I've been giving your slot the cold shoulder.

And about my read on you guys: seriously, I'm tired of answering questions whose answers should be evident from my posts.

we are 2 different heads. take a page out of sakura's page and treat us as individuals who share a role and are working together. if it was THAT evident then I wouldn't be asking.

I am going to level with you. I am tired, I am cranky, I don't feel good and it would be nice to have some light banter and entertainment instead of the shitfests that mafia has turned into these days. do you think you could help with that? that would be nice.

I've been trying to post something civil in reply to this for a good 10 minutes. It's not happening.

I've been reaching out to you guys since page 2. I think I managed something resembling a basis for cooperation, though it's been an uphill slog every step of the way.

It's been meaningless.

[Street Hassle]

why do you think he has backed off from you in the first place.

and i do not think I have done anything uncivil to either of you so why would I deserve incivility? I haven't even been uncivil to that squirrel creature even tho she has been baiting me since p1.

you know what. I give up. this was probably 1 the most sincere reach outs I have ever given. have fun I guess

It came off to me like you were blaming us for the game not being fun for you.

If I had seen Empire's post I wouldn't have posted mine. I'll take a break for a day or two and you guys can maybe work something out.

[Street Hassle]

I'm fine with it. I hate bringing drama into mafia games (why do you think I completely avoided posting in this thread yesterday after those Desperado posts?) as it makes the game and the scumhunting for me completely unfun. I'm still willing to go over things with you, I just do not want to have to deal with what happened again. I really honestly do appreciate the sentiment too.

What do you want to go over?

[Street Hassle]

well fitz was scum in this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=29543

Oh, just remembered this.

I see what you're getting at but I think the difference in the catchups might be due to the sheer length of the game (he mentions having to change it up due to it being 40 pages when he jumped in). Need to double check the other games, but in the ones I posted he was either a starting player or had replaced in early.

P-edit: I don't really notice any major tone difference though and he didn't really have a chance to react to his wagon as far as I can see. I don't think you can really use the Castle game as relevant meta given that he was an SK and thus was not really part of the informed minority (e.g., he could have been genuinely scumhunting). Have you had a chance to look at the games I posted? I know you don't really like to go too deep into games you haven't been in personally but worth a shot?

I don't really have much of an opinion on Milked Eek other than I found his preemptive defense suspicious in that it sorta feels like he's been here this whole time but not really saying anything. I *think* ffery was on the same wavelength as you but we didn't really go over him much, just kinda waiting for more content (doesn't this whole game feel this way at this point?).

Also goddamn it fuck that song it's so fucking bad why do you have to remind me of it? ;_;

[Street Hassle]

I tend to have that paranoia too a lot w.r.t. inactive vs. active players but sometimes the scum team can just suck.
It's part of the reason I'm fine with playing the waiting game with some of the inactives and seeing what comes out of them. If it gets to the point where everyone starts looking town, then I'll worry. As of now, though, I don't feel the need to reset.

[Street Hassle]

Hey your predecessor scumclaimed and we're lynching you, sorry bro ;_;

[Street Hassle]

Eh, I did find her early posts somewhat suspicious but the main idea behind the vote was to see if she's react as emotionally / passionately charged as she did in her one town game, which is why I've been waiting this whole time.

[Street Hassle]

Also, way to post a link that doesn't even work. You suck.

[Street Hassle]

Massive list of reads is better for me personally.

[Street Hassle]

tch u how 2 scmhnt?

Looking forward to it.

Hello.

[Street Hassle]

Regfan, for some reason, MS stopped working on my PC but I'll be around on my phone. Very interested in going through it.

[Street Hassle]

Empire says he's happy to wait.

[Street Hassle]

Man, it's scary how our reads are quite similar to yours (same reasoning on a lot of them too).

Really, the only places so far where we differ are Kid A and TvK (both of whom I have a null). I'm about to crash but I've been conflicted on TvK for basically the entire game. I remember at some point he said he townread my slot for "asking him a question" and that raised my eyebrow. I'll go through his games when I wake up. As far as Kid A goes, he hasn't really done anything I'd say is unfakeable.

ffery's not here at the moment but she has more experience with T S O than I do (I have no completed games with him) so maybe she'll give some insight into his meta.

[Street Hassle]

In all my prior games iwth TSO, he's been town. I'll hunt up some scum games to meta.

[Street Hassle]

*sigh*

Regfan, can you bust out your rolodex of~ 3 years worth of meta with me so you can explain why there's no way I'm scum in this game? Thanks in advance.

Unvote, vote: havingfitz

Bigger post coming up next.

[Street Hassle]

I could be at L-1. Not sure. If people have any doubts on their suspicions towards me (which I fail to see) I would appreciate an unvote. More than a few people haven't contributed squat yet and I'm being rung up based on my two 1st posts (stupid), my catch up post (standard) and meta o. The aforementioned non items.

tl:dr;

someone please fcuking unvote me till I can address my accusers

I think you're at L-4 if the count at the top of the page is accurate.

[Street Hassle]

Alright, so Regfan, I've gone over the reads list you put up with ffery now that I'm awake and stuff. I'll be putting up our own bullet points on certain players in my next few posts as we discuss and consolidate our reads.

First three are our strong townreads, pretty much the ones we're feeling very confident on.

Herself:

• Our read on this slot is very largely meta-based so you'll be getting two separate bullet points here from each of us individually (mostly revolving around Desperado's play).
  
• Empire: I only have one completed game with Desperado on this site and that was when he was scum (Wingate Mansion). In that game, he was a lot more cautious / mechanical in his interactions with other players than he has been here and he just flat out does not attack the game with the same intensity. Checked out his scum play in Castle to make sure this wasn't an aberration and it fits the exact same profile. #418 from that game is a good example of what I mean -- the tame language he uses when someone disagrees with him on a strong opinion he holds ("we'll agree to disagree") is vastly different to how adamant he's been here.
  
• ffery: She really likes the way Desperado has tried to reach out and build lynch consensus, especially backing down when things get too heated and trying to get disparate town players to work together even temporarily (she wants me to point out that him asking Squirrel Girl to leave us alone for a bit is a good example of that). She also notes that The Walking Dead is very representative of how he's been approaching the game, trying to build a strong town bloc to essentially suffocate the scum and box them out.
  
• With regards to mollie, we've been going back and forth on her reach out to me last night. Apparently, she does try to emulate that paranoia -- ffery linked me to Perpetual Mylo and I found her interactions with ffery way over the top in that game, very much unlike here, and I'm reading her disappointment that I seemingly turned down her reach out as genuine.

ICEninja:

• His paranoia over the scum having daytalk in #13 and #16 reads incredibly genuine, especially in the context of his most recently completed game (Mini 1505).
  
• I liked his confusion and frustration that people aren't understanding his posts or where he's coming from with his attacks. As a general principle, town care a hell of a lot more about their reads and tend to get upset when others aren't following them or understanding their perspective.
  
• His intense frustration over inactives in #112 and people not generating enough content to his satisfaction is also very genuine and fits his town meta almost perfectly (Mini 1407 -- he actually replaced out of this game because it was too lurky for him).
  
• A lot of the more introspective comments read genuine too -- the concern that he's falling into confirmation bias on townreading our slot or that he's missing the boat entirely on Herself. ffery also wants to note that his "way too many townreads among the active players paranoia" in #270 reads genuine to her too as she's often shared that same worry that there's a really good, smooth scum player in the active bunch sweeping up the town points.

Squirrel Girl:

• Her entrance into the game feels comfortable (#10 in particular being a highlight). Scum, especially newer scum, typically enter the game a lot more stiff and awkward than I believe she has here. ffery also thought that "antagonizing" the Herself hydra right off the bat would have been a ballsy move for her as scum.
  
• She's not afraid to be vocal about her disagreements with others, even early on (her shift from messing around in the early game to calling ICE's argument against Banksys a stretch and then pursuing the issue felt natural). I like that she challenged us on our read on Orestes, seemingly out of surprise that our thoughts differed from hers. Scum are way less likely to feel the surprise -> need for validation / invalidation from someone else reaction because they view reads as just talking points rather than things to care about.
  
• I like the she persisted on getting answers about our Banksys meta thing, shows she genuinely cares about the issue. I think the typical scum move would have been to drop the line of questioning entirely especially considering how many people disagreed with her read on us. Instead, she carries on because she's sticking up for what she believes in.
  
• Very minor point, but I liked #159, I think she'd have relished in "being ignored" as scum rather than comment on it out of frustration.

Need to go over TvK / Garmr / T S O next, probably will take some time as these will require some meta reading.

P-edit: Mollie, I've moved way on at this point. I'm not the kind of person who gets over things quickly or easily (I once had to refrain from posting in a game for something like an entire week because Thor personally insulted me and pissed me off) and I only brought it up because you asked me why I've been giving your slot the cold shoulder. As for the Banksys thing, I already explained when Regfan replaced in that I was trying to field a reaction from her (though I did honestly find her initial posts kind of suspicious, I exaggerated a bit for that reason). I saw in her town game that she got a lot more emotional / passionate in her interactions with people so I saw the opportunity to get an easy townread there.

[Street Hassle]

Just a head's up, I'm gonna be drifting in and out of this thread since I just got conscripted by family to draft a formal letter for them due tomorrow. Should be able to get TvK and Garmr up tonight at the very least.

You highlighted the major issue I have with TvK's post (his saying he has a lot of townreads yet listing so few people as town in his list), only thing is I think the bit directed at you about how he felt he hasn't towntold / isn't pulling his weight sounded pretty genuine and I kinda buy the feeling he has that he's struggling.

[Street Hassle]

only thing is I think the bit directed at you about how he felt he hasn't towntold / isn't pulling his weight sounded pretty genuine and I kinda buy the feeling he has that he's struggling.

Very relevant town meta on this issue.

[Street Hassle]

Ok ffery and I spent a little bit of time discussing TvK's meta and here's what we've come up with:

• His town games (no completed scum games) are Open 395, Mini 1340, and Open 410. Didn't include the newbie games as I don't really find newbie games to be relevant meta (the mindset is somewhat different in those I've found looking through in the past). They're all also quite old (year+) but it's better than nothing.
  
• His play in Open 395 shows that he can be super detail oriented when he wants to be as town, something that I think is sorely lacking here. Even in the early stages of that game, he was constructing posts like #147 explaining his thought process.
  
• #112 in Open 395 shows that he does tend to scumread people very hesitatingly. He posted something similar here in #261, which could explain the weirdness in his lists. ffery thinks the posts are somewhat different in that on Open 395 he was talking about the distinction between finding people anti-town vs. finding them scummy (latter requires much more certainty from him) whereas here he's focusing on scummy behavior. Could very well be a distinction without a difference though.
  
• I mentioned it in my last post by implication but I'll say it more explicitly here: the similarity between his response to Regfan and his post in Open 410 where he says he'd be voting him too if he was looking from the outside is really striking.

Actually, I just realized going through his ISO here again that #65 in light of #260 makes a lot of sense if you look at it from the perspective of a townie who is very self conscious about his scumhunting (which he appears to be given the meta here). Maybe the dude's actually town after all?

P-edit: I'll go through trudging the fitz meta right now, give me a few.

[Street Hassle]

Eh, I felt like I didn't need to include it due it being 3 posts long but you're right about how he tends to approach early game reads.

About fitz, not sure how relevant this will be, but he was run up / suspected almost immediately on replacing into a scum slot in The Reckoning II and ended up writing #793, and well...yeah, he could probably do that as either alignment. Need to find more to be sure though.

[Street Hassle]

Ugh, about to crash and I need to get this letter done. Let me know what you think about that fitz game and I'll be back tomorrow to finish that up as well as the Garmr stuff.

[Street Hassle]

transposing top town read of reggie with unsure read of street

What does this mean?

[Street Hassle]

So...Reg...do you actually suspect anyone? I'm getting twitchier reading your posts when you seem to throw away every scum read you have.

You and Street look more like a couple at the store scrutinizing which curtains to buy for your new place than people trying to actively find scum.

This nagging feeling that my two strongest town reads are laughing at me in a day chat QT is growing. We need to lynch somebody so one of my damn town reads can die and make me feel better.

at this point it just looks like exclusionary mutual masturbation and gives the both of them a way to be present in the thread

without ever having to interact with anybody

. are you not worried that you will die?

The bolded isn't what's happening.

[Street Hassle]

I was going to post some stuff about T S O's town game (All my completed games with him are town) before doing some research on games I haven't played. But, T S O's content so far in this game is minimal, I don't want to tell him what I expect to see if he's town yet.

T S O, how about getting in here and playing the game?

[Street Hassle]

that I am thinking about switching you guys and reggie in my reads list.

I'm going to want to know why eventually, because your trajectory on us doesn't support this statement.

[Street Hassle]

Also, look at T S O. Less than an hour after he was called out directly he appears and ho! Promise for content! He's paying enough attention to pop in here right after Street makes note of him. Oh God, here comes the paranoia again, of StreetScum giving daytalk cues to this guy. Definitely feeling a link between these two, though it is entirely possible that they're both town.

T S O beetlejuicing makes me twitchy as well, but it's a twitch balanced by the content of his post. I dunno how much he enjoys playing scum. Hanging on to an interesting looking town game sounds more plausible than hanging on to a scum game in a player list like this one, but that could be a projection of my personal (and very strong) role preference.

[Street Hassle]

I was planning on reading and finishing up on the Fitz meta as well as reading through his interaction with you again and getting a response from Street on whether they saw the same thing I did in his post that read as town before I decide whether to vote either Milked or Fitz (And was leaning towards Milked) but Desps Post 329 and Post 330 is actually a good point that I need to look at when I'm not so groggy eyed and it's not 6am (Probably in a few hours after I get some more sleep).

Empire and I haven't talked yet about where we want to move our vote next. I was leaning in the Milked/fitz direction last night. But, ICEninja has a point about Orestes. My read on him has gone very stale.

There's homework to do before making our vote decision.

[Street Hassle]

I figured empire wouldn't take me seriously, I was hoping he has a good grasp of my personality and if he did fery could tell him not to but it seems like fery has bumped her head and has forgotten the past nearly 4 years we have been playing together so I don't know what I am going to do with that except wait to see if emp gets offended or whatever

I haven't forgotten about this post:

street - we are leaving them alone for today but I do want to get some thoughts out there. I did not like his push on banksys, desp meta-ed her too and came to an entirely different conclusion. to me it felt forced, fabricated and like going after low hanging fruit. wanted to give them some space so started treating them like town but the interactions last night were weird. i am not sure how me wanting to talk to emp turned into me blaming them for the lack of enjoyment of the game. <---- weird. I danced with emp and it felt pretty natural but it was like pulling teeth to get him to do it and I am wondering why that is. on desp's part he was under the impression that we all had moved on but then emp said he was being a douche and fery said that trying to work with us (desp has been doing most of the posting) was like slogging in an uphill battle when desp thought he was working with fery so he is not sure where that is coming from. it could just all be a misunderstanding but it has left us both mystified and unsure.

You're playing the fery's off card pretty hard. The uphill battle was because of bad feelings at both ends of the interactions, but I actually agree with desp that we were getting somewhere. I felt like your posts 221 and 224 undermined what we'd been doing, which is why I said it had been meaningless in post 226.

[Street Hassle]

Street Hassle - Town
Kid A
TvK
My Milked Eek*
T S O - Town
Regfan Banksys Flareon - prob Town
ICEninja - Town
Garmr - Town
Squirrel Girl - Town
Orestes
Quadraxis - Null
Herself - Town
havingfitz - leaning scum

anyone who didn't get a read I couldn't

Some reasons to go with the labels would be awesome.

[Street Hassle]

@ fery

what do you think of reggie?

First game with him, and my impressions are pretty shaped by Empire's years of experience playing with him. I have found no reason so far to think he's not town.

Is there a reason why you're asking me specifically, rather than the expert on this topic?

[Street Hassle]

@ fery

what do you think of reggie?

First game with him, and my impressions are pretty shaped by Empire's years of experience playing with him. I have found no reason so far to think he's not town.

Is there a reason why you're asking me specifically, rather than the expert on this topic?

yeah cos I wanted to know you thought not emp. I would like to know your first impressions/assessment. this is my first game with him too and I was wondering if yours matched my own.

My first impression was that he has a loose, humorous style of play, and puts a lot of attention on the attitudinal nuances that players give away in their word choices and sentence structures. And he obviously views that through the lens of their priors. I haven't meta'd him because I'm sharing my role PM with someone who has tons of experiential meta. But, I'd sort of expect that he's humorous as scum too, but maybe not quite so loose and easy going in his interactions.

His pace reminds me of other meta-emphasized players (with the notable exception of our esteemed mod) who tend to take a "let the game data come to me" approach, which frees up time for meta analysis. The advantages of having that style as a baseline when scum are pretty obvious.

[Street Hassle]

My first impression was that he has a loose, humorous style of play, and puts a lot of attention on the attitudinal nuances that players give away in their word choices and sentence structures. And he obviously views that through the lens of their priors. I haven't meta'd him because I'm sharing my role PM with someone who has tons of experiential meta. But, I'd sort of expect that he's humorous as scum too, but maybe not quite so loose and easy going in his interactions.

His pace reminds me of other meta-emphasized players (with the notable exception of our esteemed mod) who tend to take a "let the game data come to me" approach, which frees up time for meta analysis. The advantages of having that style as a baseline when scum are pretty obvious.

mine is a little different but we seem to intersect with the "let the game data come to me" approach. his rhythm is good, he's a good dancer, he is letting me get pretty close but not letting me

in

but that might just be cos he doesn't know me. I also think he could do all these things as scum of course but I am thinking he is town.

I have no idea how you call close vs in. It may be something that doesn't map to my style of play.

[Street Hassle]

Still trying to focus in on TVK

I want that robot fucking gone unless it talks with people words

I see the points on MME but I think there are more sure bets than analyzing an excuse to post. That road isn't one I'm willing to go down this far into the game.
Especially when theres a giant hulk with red flags sticking out his ass running around a minefield one street down.

I am quite taken with this metaphor.

[Street Hassle]

So I have been reading up on this game since I got the go ahead to replace in about 2-2.5 hours ago. I play mafia by creating lists of what I find scummy and what I find townie while I go through the game. Reading this many pages in 2,5 hours may have cause me to miss somethings, and I generally find the last pages hard to read with as much details as the first (this is also so for this game).
For now I will post the ones I got the most “scumpoints” on and the ones I got the most “townpoints” on.

The runaway winner for most points awarded is Herself, and all of those are scumpoints. So she/he/it is basicly my biggest scumread.
My number two scumread is Squirrel Girl.
Number 3 is TvK.

For town I got ICEninja as my biggest townread, and Street Hassle as my second biggest scumread.

I will leave you with this for now, I will come back later, or tomorrow with a better post with better analysis. I will need to do some ISO’ing then, and try to battle my confirmation bias (don’t bet on me being able to do this, the bias is strong in this one!)

I checked to see if you used this approach to scumhunting in your completed MS newbie game. It looks like you didn't. You replaced into that game, as well, and into a fairly dire LYLO situation.

Is this something new you are trying out? How does it work?

[Street Hassle]

Kid A

———✹

Why'd you vote for Orestes for fluffposting when at that time you barely contributed at all?

———✹

Explain how Orestes is scummy for implying two people were suspicious, then voting someone else.

———✹

What's your read on Banksys Flareon's slot?

———✹

Elaborate on your reasoning for voting for Street Hassle.

———✹

Who else is trying to "sound Town"?

Whoo! Content!

[Street Hassle]

HEY. Don't be making declarative statements with exceptional evidence. YOU. Yeah, YOU, Street Hassle. You say BF is Scum. You want votes to garner your credibility? Give us damned good reasons for your divination why don't you? Otherwise that's just as valuable as "ICEninja is Town Doctor," "SG hates nuts," "Herself is Mafia Godfather." It has no value with evidentiary grounding. You really should explain yourself here, otherwise I've got some charge-shots with your name on it, and I don't miss, and these mother-fucking beams have homing capabilities.

Since this is up to post 61 or whatever, I'm going to assume that once you've read far enough into the thread then you'll know why Empire posted the vote the way he did, and why I was snooty about the demands for details.

We'll scumhunt as we see fit with the tools we know and love.

[Street Hassle]

HEY. Don't be making declarative statements with exceptional evidence. YOU. Yeah, YOU, Street Hassle. You say BF is Scum. You want votes to garner your credibility? Give us damned good reasons for your divination why don't you? Otherwise that's just as valuable as "ICEninja is Town Doctor," "SG hates nuts," "Herself is Mafia Godfather." It has no value with evidentiary grounding. You really should explain yourself here, otherwise I've got some charge-shots with your name on it, and I don't miss, and these mother-fucking beams have homing capabilities.

Since this is up to post 61 or whatever, I'm going to assume that once you've read far enough into the thread then you'll know why Empire posted the vote the way he did, and why I was snooty about the demands for details.

We'll scumhunt as we see fit with the tools we know and love.

...or, you could enlighten us with a brief recap. That'd help everyone who's taking notes, and speed the catching-up of other players like me and Bard.

Your last sentence does absolutely nothing to allay my suspicion of you, because it doesn't respond to anything I said in the post you quoted. Come on, hydra. Engage. You've got two heads, so you guys can even take alternating breaks while engaging me. Kindly answer my questions in that post, please. I'm not particularly satisfied with your lukewarm rebuttal, so I'm deciding whether to fire upon you sooner or later. What do you think?

244 is the succinct recap for why Empire placed that vote. He saw an opportunity to get a decent read on banksys. Neither of us were concerned about drumming up a big wagon on banksys and in fact I would have been alarmed if that had happened given the game state.

This is why I framed my response as I did. We will continue to scumhunt as we see fit. Sometimes that means we won't post full reasoning until either the time is ripe or, as in this case, the opportunity fades away.

If there are any other questions buried in your harangue you'll have to repost, preferably with question marks.

[Street Hassle]

So I have been reading up on this game since I got the go ahead to replace in about 2-2.5 hours ago. I play mafia by creating lists of what I find scummy and what I find townie while I go through the game. Reading this many pages in 2,5 hours may have cause me to miss somethings, and I generally find the last pages hard to read with as much details as the first (this is also so for this game).
For now I will post the ones I got the most “scumpoints” on and the ones I got the most “townpoints” on.

The runaway winner for most points awarded is Herself, and all of those are scumpoints. So she/he/it is basicly my biggest scumread.
My number two scumread is Squirrel Girl.
Number 3 is TvK.

For town I got ICEninja as my biggest townread, and Street Hassle as my second biggest scumread.

I will leave you with this for now, I will come back later, or tomorrow with a better post with better analysis. I will need to do some ISO’ing then, and try to battle my confirmation bias (don’t bet on me being able to do this, the bias is strong in this one!)

I checked to see if you used this approach to scumhunting in your completed MS newbie game. It looks like you didn't. You replaced into that game, as well, and into a fairly dire LYLO situation.

Is this something new you are trying out? How does it work?

If you did read post #855 in that game you see that I did. And the following discussions between me and Nacho was him not believing that my list was genuine.

Still this don't give you anything to work on. I would 100% do this as scum as well (I will try to emulate my townplaystyle as scum). In fact I read through the entire thread and made my reads before reading my PM.

The question then is if you believe me. If you don't and you believed I looked at my PM my reasoning should be poor enough and my reads should not seem genuine for you to see that I am scum (if I did roll scum).

It's not a question of belief or disbelief, but of understanding your method, Which is why I asked how it works. I think I have the gist now from this as well as other posts you've made. I don't know why, but the format of your newbie post didn't appear to be the same process. Maybe it's because points weren't explicitly assigned.

Do you have thoughts about why your method didn't work too well in the Newbie game?

If you do believe me the question is: If he rolled scum, did he alter his reads after figuring out who his scumbuddies are? If I had all my scumbuddies on my scummylist I probably would, but if they are on my townlist or neutral I would just carry on and post my reads as they were.

Who are you asking about in the above paragraph?

[Street Hassle]

But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

He actually didn't give the real explanation till much later - the explanation that he gave me that you liked was him stalling for time.

Hmm. It is your post 126 I didn't like. And the way I am reading it SH's post 116 is where fferyllt is saying that they didn't discuss the findings in detail. Correct me if I am missing something here.

You are missing later when the other head showed up to explain the read and the read was 'it was a reaction test, and we're still not going to explain it so we can keep doing reaction tests if we want' Which means they never intended to discuss the read with me and always knew it was a reaction test, but were lying/putting me off so that they didn't have to say that out loud and let Banksys know it was a reaction test. Meaning that, when you say you believe them, what you believed was them putting off saying anything while not actually being truthful about why, meanwhile I didn't like it, and was correct that they were hiding something for strategic purposes. I have decided that what they did was not really that great, but even if you have decided that what they did was town motivated and legit and everything they said was true - that still means you're suspecting me as scum because I correctly identified that they were being hidden about a read. Now, you can try to explain that as scum me trying to press on them to make a town thing they decided to do look scummy, but don't tell me I had no reason to doubt their word. Clearly I did and was right about it.

Why don't you remember any of that happening?

Not true, though this puts the discussion pretty deep in might have beens. If banksys had returned and interacted with us about our suspicions, and we had gotten a reaction that matched what we expected from town-Banksys based on reading completed town and scum games, we probably would have given a pretty brief explanation of why we were unvoting. If the reaction was more like her scum games in similar situations, then it would have been time to write up a case on her posts that included meta analysis. Without a decent explanation for why we were seriously scumreading her and wanted others to also vote her, we wouldn't accomplish much.

[Street Hassle]

You do realize the post in which I had voted her was my very first post of the game, right?

And you'd be amazed at how much I can read in how short of a time.

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

were these posts made by different heads or the same head

The first post was by Empire. The second post was by me.

[Street Hassle]

while youre here can you tell me empire's read on eek i am interested in hearing it

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since Eek became more active. I expect we'll discuss reads today or tomorrow depending on how our schedules mesh.

You can have my thoughts on Eek if you want them.

[Street Hassle]

yeah go ahead

Seven posts.

The reads list is very sketchy looking, particularly the lack of reasoning for where several players are located in the lists. The game thread is 24 pages long now. And some of his naked reads are players with seriously high participation and relative kilotons of content. Also, where he goes into any detail about the player, it's often regarding purely playstyle based critique. This jumped out at me when I read his comments about us, one of his stronger town reads:

The only annoyance I have is the heavy emphasis on meta. The way I see it is that metaing should be used as a complimentary tool to scumhunting and not as a starting point. I don't see a lot of content based on the thread (in comparison to the meta stuff).

Nothing here about what justifies having us as strong town. Just "annoyance" over our scumhunting approach.

This looks like the sort of reads list that I struggle to avoid putting together when I'm scum. With so little substantive stance, it will be easy to make tactical adjustments. But the lack of stance is also a lack of stakes in the ground, showing how he's putting pictures together and processing the thread data.

There's one other thing about his recent play that bothers me. He threw the reads list up, but has made no effort to engage anyone and refine some of those null or reasonless reads. There's an exchange between him and garmr, his scum read, and he comes off almost conciliatory, starting a tiny pokemon side discussion with the player he's voting rather than really grappling with garmr.

I'm not at all happy with Eek. He and fitz are at the top of my list of players to discuss with Empire once we cross paths.

Also, and I repeat myself, seven posts.

[Street Hassle]

Well, then it's a good thing that I'm not you, isn't it?

"When I'm scum, I try to avoid posting in this scummy-as-fuck manner that you just posted"

"It's a good thing I'm not you, isn't it"

Hmm.

So, I'm going to (wait for it) meta dive to see if you actually post reads like this when you're town.

[Street Hassle]

Yo, sorry not having been around the last few days, had some really rough shit going on IRL. I've spent the last like 5 hours trying to catch up in this game and discussing things with ffery. The long and short of it is that ffery and I are worried that we're wrong somewhere on at least one of our townreads just due to the sheer quantity of them and the concern that the game might not be this easy (I think a big part of the reason is that we both have a townread on Wake, a slot that before looked very likely PoE scum). I just got through Milked's posts on the last page and was hoping to get ffery's opinion but looks like she fell asleep.

One question for him though:

Good to see some content from Eek. Do the peple on the Eek wagon have reasoning beyond lurking (and no...I haven't checked)?

You'd be a fool not to find that post scummy, if not, you should find it between bad and lazy. Are you preparing for my flip to tell everyone where they went wrong?

You and fitz are competing wagons. The fact that scum is probably scattered about voting useless votes to run us up to deadline suggests that one or both wagons are town fueled. If you flip town I'm going to take a hard look at fitz, as I find it unlikely that both wagons are on town (especially since most of the players I'm suspicious of have dutifully avoided both wagons). If you're scum then you've got a buddy or two pushing fitz. Even if you flip town, we're finding scum based on your corpse. If you're scum we'll probably find another anyways. Lynching you is the right move.

Sure, sounds nice in theory, but I'm not convinced that when I flip town, fitz will be scum. Sorry. I'm not convinced of his wagon.
I find your thoughts about wagon population to be rather simplistic and, as we say in Dutch, short through the corner.

@Eek:

The first quote here implies you think he's scum but the second suggests something else entirely. What's your current / updated read on fitz? Did anything change between those two posts and, if so, what was it?


Regfan, I was about to ask you where you got the impression that Milked would try the martyrdom gambit as scum here, but then found Open 213 (where he self voted as a scum lover). I have a bit more to say about the possibility of a Milked / fitz partnership but I want him to answer my question first.

Short notes: Liking TvK a lot more for town after #563 and #571 as well as Wake for his general approach (one of the more notable things I liked was his persistence in getting people to answer his questions). Both of us still don't get the townreads on Kid A at all (worth a trip down meta lane).

Note to self: read Mini 937 when I'm more awake.

[Street Hassle]

Uh, Kid A's only scum game is a rather old newbie but he's way more active / aggressive / pushy / etc in his town games than he's been here and he tends to explicitly look a lot at potential partner interactions which is noticeably absent here (examples include: Mini 1463, Mini 1476, Mini 1486). Gotta read over them one more time when awake in more detail.

[Street Hassle]

see that is just it, I don't have anything compelling to offer. it is just feels. emp's reaction to desp looked genuine I think, but while emp danced with me he never really got close.

reading their posts is like watching old people have sex. they are so incredibly perfunctory, I mean even emp's "I am wondering if we have scum in our townpile I mean can it really be that easy" is just omg so damn predictable that I don't even know what to do with it. there is a distinct lack of leadership coming from that slot when there shouldn't be.

I can see why you'd feel this way. But, this is a first time game as Street, and our playstyles are not all that similar. I've been very hesitant to move forward in big ways while Empire hasn't been caught up (which has been most of the last week). And, I feel like the last 12 or so hours of posting is going to be another back to the drawing board session once we do have chance to synch again.

I'm antsy because the deadline looms. I'm also a lot more willing to go with my gut and make quick decisions than I think Empire is. I'd rather be more methodical about figuring out how this partnership should work, though.

[Street Hassle]

I would honestly be surprised if BOTH Eek and fitz were scum. I suppose in a game where we have this many competent pro-town players it would be possible, but it just feels implausible that town wagoned two scum already. I don't really want to focus too hard on who is scum for day 2 yet, but I tend to be transparent about what certain flips will make me feel about others. And just about every game I do it someone calls me out for "lining up lynches" or something along those lines but I'm going to keep doing it because I think being clear about that sort of thing is the correct play.

However look at this: The Eek wagon was so close to closing out then all the sudden at the last second a Garmr wagon explodes out of nowhere. This is exactly what I would expect to happen if Eek was scum. It's damn hard to lynch scum on day 1, and wagons on scum fall apart at the drop of a hat. I will admit that Eek put together a half decent case on Garmr, but it is just too little too late for me to be convinced that Garmr is scum and Eeked is town. Also the way that Eek's wagon just fell apart in favor of what is probably an easily pushed mislynch at this point (Garmr) makes me fairly confident of where my vote is.

We have 4 players we are leaning scum on. Eek is one of them but you've nailed some of the reasons why we kinda want to move him to null/town, and you've also nailed some of the reasons why we kinda want to leave him in our scumpile.

We still want to lynch Fitz.

I'm really not understanding the town reads on Kid A. And I want to lynch TSB almost as badly as I do fitz after some of his recent posts.

[Street Hassle]

@regfan

Will do. It could be 12 hours or more before Empire's RL stuff allows much mafia time.

[Street Hassle]

Regfan, I'm about to head to a job interview so I'll do my best to make time today, though by the looks of things there isn't all that much to discuss. I found TSB's vote change awful and would take his slot as an alternate lynch (though it means admitting Desperado was right which is just *vomit*)

[Street Hassle]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

[Street Hassle]

anyone else starting to feel ICEninja as scum

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

so do you think iceninja could be scum yes/no

So you think we are scum, but have done jack shit about it for how many posts? You are rather noncommital about your reads. Waiting to see which way town jumps?

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

You're forgiven because I like where you've put your vote.

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

You're forgiven because I like where you've put your vote.

whats wrong with your vote :/

Nothing's wrong with it. Patience. There are formalities to follow and an appointment with regfan to meet.

[Street Hassle]

Reg, I don't know if Empire will have a chance to get online and talk before deadline. There's a little over 24 hours left, though, so maybe.

Anyone know the vote count on TSB?

[Street Hassle]

VOTE: The Silver Bard

I think that's L-2.

[Street Hassle]

Town

Herself
Regfan
Garmr
Iceninja

Less Town

Fitz (goes to top tier with kill confirmation)
lolwagons (solid play, small lingering questions about TSO)
Squirrel Girl
Wake
Eek

Null

Kid A (has been in scumpile forever. Crazy theory moves him up. I wonder about the meta awareness, though. In his one scum game (a newbie) he faked a towntell)

Scum

Silver Bard
TvK (This is PoE mostly, along with the garmr interactions. I want to review this with a cooler head)

[Street Hassle]

Fitz, your explanation in Post 566 was just that he "Allleviated your concerns" rather than actual reasoning and your reasoning in Post 678 was an abscence of a scum read which should lead towards you having a null read on him, not a town read so yeah, I was kind of asking you because without a good reason my votes most certainly not changing.

PEdit: Street, what's your doubts about SG (I have her up in the strong town tier of my thoughts) and ugh at you having TvK as scum too (Kind of makes me worry that I'm wrong with my town read on him and I think I've been wrong far too much already this game).

They're pretty minor doubts re SG, really. It's about the argument with Wake, though she's been something of a nitpicker throughout the game, but in that case it seems tangential and not moving the game forward much given the amount of time and effort. Could be purely personality/style.

We've had TvK as town for a good while, too. I need to reread the garmr interactions and maybe I'll change my mind again. I feel like the fitz, Eek and garmr interactions mean something, but nothing about the evolution and interactions of those wagons looks scum driven to me. I'm not a wagon analyst, though, so ymmv. If all of that was town vs town, then I'm down to TvK scum by PoE of my town reads. And I need to find at least one more scum in the town pile as well.

[Street Hassle]

Will I find the reasons why in your ISO?

[Street Hassle]

Fitz, your explanation in Post 566 was just that he "Allleviated your concerns" rather than actual reasoning and your reasoning in Post 678 was an abscence of a scum read which should lead towards you having a null read on him, not a town read so yeah, I was kind of asking you because without a good reason my votes most certainly not changing.

PEdit: Street, what's your doubts about SG (I have her up in the strong town tier of my thoughts) and ugh at you having TvK as scum too (Kind of makes me worry that I'm wrong with my town read on him and I think I've been wrong far too much already this game).

They're pretty minor doubts re SG, really. It's about the argument with Wake, though she's been something of a nitpicker throughout the game, but in that case it seems tangential and not moving the game forward much given the amount of time and effort. Could be purely personality/style.

We've had TvK as town for a good while, too. I need to reread the garmr interactions and maybe I'll change my mind again. I feel like the fitz, Eek and garmr interactions mean something, but nothing about the evolution and interactions of those wagons looks scum driven to me. I'm not a wagon analyst, though, so ymmv. If all of that was town vs town, then I'm down to TvK scum by PoE of my town reads. And I need to find at least one more scum in the town pile as well.

I would look at ice.

Also, could you put an updated reads list in the thread sometime soon? I'd like to kick stuff around a little before the day ends.

Me. :/