Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[ICEninja]

Alright guys since I know not all of you are going to read the rules thoroughly I want to point out something that is

absolutely game changing

.

Game Mechanics

The mafia have Daytalk. (It is not based on encryptors).

Right off the bat we know that mafia have day talk. Be VERY VERY careful this game and take the paranoia up a notch, as I've seen scum do some pretty creative things with day talk.

Also while I'm pointing out things, we're also using the no-lynch if not enough votes rule set so let's NOT run things up to 7 hours before the deadline to force a claim, yeah?

I hardly know any of you so if anyone lives outside of continental USA time zones I'd appreciate if you pointed that out. It's nice to know if someone is going to be posting at strange hours.

[ICEninja]

Herself, you made a post talking to Nutsy McSexytail but planted a vote on fitz. Do not like.

Vote Herself

.

[ICEninja]

You discussed one person then voted for someone else whom you've said nothing about.

And what's with all the p1 fearmongering?

Because of an ongoing game, actually. Day talk makes me jumpy now.

[ICEninja]

If I had a scumread, I'd be voting it.

Right now, what I see are some null posts and some posts that kinda look town.

That's the funny thing about scum hunting, is scum are really hard to find unless you hunt for them.

reading the rules is for scrubs or for mafia who are surprised by their daytalk and want to see if town knows they have it

And people who are paranoid because of [government censorship due to ongoing game].

Herself looks OK for now. I like this better.

Unvote, vote Street Hassle

.

[ICEninja]

That's cool, but don't call me out for being ambiguous if you want me to keep results to myself.

This is exactly what I was thinking. These two segments of this quote:

Why would you talk about having "found" town?

Why would you then be ambiguous about who you're referring to?

seem to be directly contradictory with each other in terms of the goal of the post. The red statement makes it clear that he doesn't want you to be outing town (probably for the sake of giving scum a more informed N1 kill) but the green statement implies that if you DON'T you're scummy.

I hate to be flipping my vote around so much, but:

Unvote, vote Banksys Flareon

.

This is my first serious vote.

[ICEninja]

I actually feel like that's sort of a stretch considering the whole post and not just the sentence.

No it isn't. He completely denounced PoE as valid scum hunting.

Funny how you sheeped my silly votes without question, now you're questioning my vote that makes sense. Do not like.

[ICEninja]

Alright let me explain my reasoning for not liking Banksys's post earlier. He made this statement:

Why would you talk about having "found" town? Why would you then be ambiguous about who you're referring to?

It's hard to see a train of thought in which this yields a scum read you can act upon.

Think about that underlined statement. He's saying that town hunting isn't useful in finding scum. Herself hadn't even given out town reads, so why attack her for it? Town hunting is the very basis for which PoE is used. Town hunt for a handful of players you're unwilling to lynch, suddenly the lynch pool becomes a lot smaller. Tons of players do this. Combine that silly attack with my earlier statement of how the first 2 sentences in that quote contradict each other in purpose and you've got a pretty voteworthy post here.

I'm legitimately surprised people are confused about this vote. Post 31 by Banksys is still the scummiest post made so far this game.

Garmr is looking fairly town, I got embarrassed town vibes from post 63. Fitz giving no content seems like a frustratingly common trend with this guy. Street Hassle dropped a (pretty big, in my eyes) town tell that I don't want to discuss.

The number of town looking players here suggests that there's at least 1 scum in the "hasn't posted yet" camp. I might have to do some lurker hunting this game.

[ICEninja]

Alright well people are asking why there is a wagon on Banksys. How about you try

actually reading my posts

, yeah? I'm sorry if it takes SO much effort to look at the vote count to see who is voting them, then SO much effort to look at my 7 posts and find which one I vote him in. But try.

That being said I'll admit it isn't exactly an overwhelming case. Just something he posted that bugged me.

This discussion around Orestes is bugging me more, though. Street has a town read (which I think is kind of meh, Orestes isn't scummy but I didn't find his posts that great either) and Herself is attempting to discredit the town read without actually scum hunting Orestes.

Why do you feel the need to discredit a town read while simultaneously not address or scum hunt the player in question? Furthermore, you do this without even holding a legitimate vote. Do you find Orestes

scummy

? If so, why is your vote still random? If you DON'T find him scummy then why are you attacking someone for town reading a non-scummy player?

Banksys I'm expecting a response from you when you get back in here...but for now:

Unvote Banksys Flareon, vote Herself

.

[ICEninja]

This game is starting to annoy me. We have 2 players (fitz and Kid A) who have posted so little content I have basically nothing to read and three players (My Milked Eek, T S O, and Quadraxis) who have posted zero things.

We've got 40% of the game unreadable. I realize it is still only 2 days in to the game, but I hate huge activity disparities. I'd be willing to bet that we've got

at least

one scum skating by for free in that group. There could even be two.

Get your asses in here, people.

[ICEninja]

Some fun is fine, T S O, but please include content in your next post.

[ICEninja]

Voting a hydra for wanting time to discuss things with the other head.

Hrm. Well there goes that town read.

[ICEninja]

1) The fitz vote was never random.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind lurker votes (especially in a game like this) but this is ridiculous. You made a random vote in post 12. You hadn't said anything about fitz and I don't see any reason to have

actual

suspicion beyond RVS shit based on what he had posted. Coming back and claiming this wasn't a random vote is laughable.

4) I'm attacking Empire for townreading a null read because the weight he is applying to the read does not match Orestes' content. It is clinically insane to have read Orestes' wall and call it "pretty town"

Does this make Street scummy? You don't seem to have a particularly strong scum read on the slot from your posts. I would like a clear statement on how you feel about Street at this point in time.

That's not why SG is voting her. Given the trajectory of the whole conversation (and not just her vote post) she is more concerned with Ffery's lack of transparency than her ability to synch with Empire.

Why are you speaking for Nutsy McSexytail? Also, how can one hydra head be transparent for the other when they haven't had a chance to synch yet?

[ICEninja]

Fitz' first two posts were both vote worthy. Why is it laughable, because I didn't explain why it was scummy at the time? Because that's pretty silly in itself.

Considering how his first post pretty much contained as much content as can be reasonably expected that early in the game and the second post, well OK it was pretty much useless and fluff but I don't see scum motivation in asking what to call someone. So yes, I call you saying your page 1 vote was serious laughable.

That being said, we're on page 8 now and he's provided shit for content so far so I can totally understand why your vote is on him now. I just can't wrap my head around that vote being serious when it was placed.

I think you and SG are both town and I am trying to nip it in the bud now so we can focus on catching scum together. You in?

So you'd like to help me find your scum buddies? Fine by me.

Why do you get the take you have, and, in addition, what do you think of my take?

I've hydra'd before with someone where we just needed to trust each other to post before discussing things in detail. I interpreted what Street said as this head doesn't have the authority to go in to detail about the specifics of the vote but agrees with the vote anyway.

I see where you're coming from, though. I'm really hung up on a town tell from the slot so I have super town-confirmation bias. I'll reread everything tomorrow from that slot pretending to ignore the town tell to see if there's anything really damning, but don't expect my vote to land on Street any time soon.

[ICEninja]

Finally some fresh perspective in this thread that happens to be mostly correct FMPOV.

I'm definitely in agreement with Herself trying to influence people (most notably McNustsy Sexytail, though to a lesser extent the other people on her "list" that she wants to find scum with) to .

I find this amusing:

You think ICE is town, 1/3 of Kid A's posts are attacks on ICE.

That "attack" was an RVS vote with a wink in it. You realize that, right?

Granted, I'm of the same camp wondering how the hell this guy is getting free town reads. I'm actually starting to develop a scum read on him as I can really only see scum buddies giving this guy a free pass so easily.

[ICEninja]

Street's posts, even ignoring any confirmation bias, still feel on the town side to me.

I am very much looking forward to Orestes's next post, I'm trying to reserve judgement on him for some more content.

Even though a couple things have bugged me, I'm having a really hard time seeing SG as scum right now.

I haven't really had anything allay my suspicions of Banksys yet. My case there is strong for so early in the game but I'm starting to feel like it's getting dated. I'm looking forward to more content here.

I'm having a hard time seeing the Garmr love. I'm not scum reading him, per se, but I feel like people are letting him off easy.

I am not at all comfortable with the number of town reads I have this game. Either the game is going to be way too easy or a couple players are really pulling the wool over my eyes. Considering how my last game went I'm inclined to believe it is the second. That or scum are hiding in V/LAs, which just doesn't feel fair.

PEDIT: Believe me I'm just as confused about the town read as you. I was just pointing out how badly out of context you brought that "attack".

[ICEninja]

That makes more sense. Understood.

[ICEninja]

hey ice why did you hop on that little flareon wagon when you obviously suspected herself at the time

My vote has always been on the player who was the most suspicious. As I stated more than once, I had big issue with her post 31. Being that more interesting things have since happened regarding Herself, she rose above Banksys on my suspect list. Also note, I didn't "hop on" the "wagon", I created it. And I put wagon in quotes because she never had more than 2 or 3 votes on her.

[ICEninja]

Herself, hypothetical question: Fitz gets shot by a day vig right now. Where does your vote go?

[ICEninja]

EBWOP he flips town when he gets shot.

[ICEninja]

I'm personally not particularly good at meta reads to determine alignment. If others want to use it and are confident in it that's fine, but it isn't going to easily convince me.

Maybe I have a more positive read on him simply because his own reads line up so tight with mine, and I feel like his Herself vote was completely justified (and not just by OMGUS but, but by Herself trying to make a case out of page 1 posts where one of which was a perfectly fine post and the other was just run-of-the-mill page 1 filler).

And even now that I go back and look at fitz's catchup his seemingly "free" town read on Kid A makes more sense considering this statement:

@ICE...Post's 13's "absolutely game changing" proclamation of something that should be apparent to anyone who reads the OP seems a bit over dramatic and ""helpful"". Then it's compounded with the watch our voting timelines and taking a poll of timezones. bleh.

Lines up with something Kid A said about me, and Kid A's Orestes scum read and fitz's scum reads seem to align too, even if they're for completely different reasons.

If someone (empire) can link me to something definitive that doesn't involve me needing to read entire games to understand fitz's play style differences as town and scum then I'll read it. I don't particularly see myself voting fitz during day 1 though, when I have such a solid scum read of Herself, and would even consider Banksys scummier than fitz at this point.

[ICEninja]

I kind of feel off-put from all this meta on fitz when it seems to mostly be about games he has replaced into or dust-ups he got in on Day 2+. I'm not sure how you guys are applying them to this one really.

Saying this about your top scum read (or at least who you are currently voting) makes me feel like you're probably the same alignment as fitz. It seems like either you're a townie hesitant to rush too deep in to a mislynch on bad info or (less likely) a scum buddy trying to play down the wagon while still getting credit for being on the wagon.

I'll make a note of this for when we've got a flip on fitz.

[ICEninja]

what if I told you that fitz's vote on me is the safest vote he can possibly make since he has voted me in nearly every single game we have ever been in

This is...strange. Does he just always scum read you either way?

if we were dayvigged right now and you finally had to face the fact that you have been tunneling on town for shoddy reasons who would you go after next?

First instinct would be Banksys. Though I had to admit a town flip on you would significantly increase my suspicion of fitz, so I'd probably reevaluate my read on him.

I'm not currently caught up. I'll have to do page 10 onwards in the morning.

[ICEninja]

But ice you were the one who started the garmr love why do you deny me and my loving embrace.

You made one particularly town post that gave me an early town read on you like page 2. After that you've backed off in to a lot of quieter, tossing out a few observations here and there, mode of play that hasn't involved much scum hunting outside a little pressure on lurkers. You definitely haven't been scummy, but I haven't seen a lot of content lately that would maintain a town read.

On a serious note what do you think they are letting me off easy with?

You started off looking quite town and it's hard to drop confirmation bias, regardless if its regarding town or scum. Just think about N is for normal, I wasn't able to see anything Elyse did as scum because of that one tell that I thought was so monstrously town she couldn't possibly be scum.

Why can't I be hesitant town and he be scum that I'm wrongly doubting a read on? Also, is what I did any different than what you did?

I mean yeah I suppose that is a possibility too. I just feel that, in my experience, town doubting the wagon and such when voting someone means they're voting town, and scum voting someone but doubting the wagon are trying to get credit for being on a scum wagon while still trying to dismantle it. And of course it was different, I'm not interested in lynching fitz based on alignment-neutral page 1 posts and a catchup post that resonated with my feelings on the state of the game.

Welcome Regfan. Your name is familiar, thank god, this game has so few familiar names in it for me.
Also:

Naw, Post 33 was actually pretty townie, surprised you missed it and yeah, I did the meta-reading before I replaced in, wanted to be sure (Still wasn't 100% sure but confident enough) and you've misread that entirely too.

I actually agree with this. I was so caught up on post 31 that I didn't realize that 33 was indeed a very town reaction to the explanation.

And now I'm freaking out because I simply have too many town reads. This isn't acceptable. Do we seriously have multiple scum who aren't posting?

Alright yeah I've done a complete 180 on the Banksys/Reg slot because everything except the townread on Herself is great. I'm actually debating a TvK vote being that it looks like there's no hope for a Herself lynch today. I'm town reading simply too many people, and Occam's razor is telling me to lynch the scummiest lurker today.

I'm going to read Herself over to see if maybe there's something damning that I've missed or to see if maybe I've just been completely retarded when finding the slot scummy because people who are strong town are giving the direct opposite read.

[ICEninja]

Hey look at that, someone is pretending to play this game. And look at that, throwing out another town read to one of the players who obviously won't be today's lynch. Using PoE to assume quite a few players are town, the lynch pool is fairly small at the moment. This guy fits the bill OH SO NICELY.

Unvote, vote T S O

. After those last 2 posts I like this vote more than a TvK vote even.

[ICEninja]

It isn't what he said that's scummy. It's

everything

that he didn't say.

[ICEninja]

I think maybe he just got a little tunneled there and retreated?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My case on him was based on a post Banksys made on page 2, and it wasn't the strongest case I've ever had. Don't get me wrong for the time it was fine but I feel like Reg's significant town contributions outweigh Banksys's early scummy play. Either way I admit that I feel a little derpy about ignoring post 33 back then.

Alright so right now I have a handful of people I'm unwilling to lynch at this point:

Street Hassle

, obviously. This town must be even more paranoid than me if they think this slot is the one pulling the wool over our eyes. Honestly if Street is scum and continues to play this well then he'd deserve to win.

Regfan

, also. As stated, my Banksys scum read was early and, admittingly, a bit misguided.

I can't QUITE decide if I want

Nutsy McSexytail

here too. She's playing a bit...squirrely...but people seem to feel like that's par for the course on her town play. Like I said I'm not a huge fan of meta reads but no matter how hard I try to be paranoid and see scum motivation from her, it just doesn't track.

I've got kind of a "meh" on Garmr, fitz, Kid A, and Orestes. Garmr is the only one of the 3 who has really posted enough content for me to get a solid read on them (and Garmr is probably not scum, but I simply cannot give out any more strong town reads). I suppose I could tolerate a lynch on any of these players but honestly I'm going to need some damning VCA in future days or a really damning case now as to why one of them is scum to see them lynched day 1.

Herself is in a weird category where I simply do not trust her and have scummy feelings, but there is so much logical reasoning to suggest she's town. Logic says town, gut says scum, and I'm really fucking frustrated. Every time I read her stuff I seem to go back and forward so I think for the purpose of day 1 I'm going to say a Herself lynch is not a good idea (not that I could get any support for this lynch anyway, but even so). I'm going to table my suspicion on Herself for the moment.

Which leaves the

really

frustrating part. The remainder of players, Milked, T S O, and TvK , include two contentless players who seem like their lack of content is more scum motivated than town motivated. I'm really uncomfortable with people defending T S O. Then there's TvK who certainly posts enough words, but the amount of uncertain and waffling language gives him WAY too much room to go back on his reads later which I often associate with scum. Sure town can have a few weak or uncertain reads but the wording he uses, passes he gives, and a lack of pressure really worries me.

I hate this. I'm usually so confident by now of a solid scum read, and the best thing I have is 3 players who seem scummy, even though I don't really have much of a substantial case on them. Part of me is thinking that this game is just going to be over in a flash, easy scum lynched, but I can't shake the feeling that we're going to be taking a player like Herself or Nutsy to lylo and they'll have been scum all along.

I feel like the best thing we can do right now is lynch the easy scum first, because there's almost certainly at least one scum in the [TvK, Milked, T S O] bracket then save the paranoia for after scum has chopped a few of the overwhelmingly town reads down.

If someone wants to make a case for why I should move my vote off T S O and on to TvK or Milked, go for it. If someone wants me to move my vote to one of my "meh" reads, you're welcome to try but it better be a strong case if you want any hope.

[ICEninja]

I have no completed games on site and also haven't died in any ongoings yet. So either you're making this up, or you're still randomly deciding who I'm an alt of and then making value calls on my play based off the play of someone you don't even know is really me!

And there goes my unwillingness to lynch Herself today.

Your evidence for clearing him is the post he made *immediately* after the one you claimed was a scumtell. I mean, if that isn't a tunnel I don't know what is. Also, you didn't even look at it again till Regfan came in and made the slot towny by...basically not saying much other than that he disagreed with your take and it was like a bolt from heaven - which made you retreat. Hence, tunneling and then retreating. That's what I meant by it.

Well shit when you put it that way you make me look like a retard.

[ICEninja]

So...Reg...do you actually suspect anyone? I'm getting twitchier reading your posts when you seem to throw away every scum read you have.

You and Street look more like a couple at the store scrutinizing which curtains to buy for your new place than people trying to actively find scum.

This nagging feeling that my two strongest town reads are laughing at me in a day chat QT is growing. We need to lynch somebody so one of my damn town reads can die and make me feel better.

[ICEninja]

at this point it just looks like exclusionary mutual masturbation and gives the both of them a way to be present in the thread without ever having to interact with anybody. are you not worried that you will die?

While they've been interacting with other people, it is, as I said earlier, making me twitchy. I feel like the only way I'll die tonight, though, is either if they're scum laughing at us in day talk QT (probably unlikely, despite paranoia) or if someone is going to try to frame the situation (also unlikely, those 2 slots are crazy dangerous). I figure even Nutsy will die before I do in terms of unlynchable players. We really have a lot of them this game, so honestly I'm kind of wasting my time worrying about who is going to die tonight.

Though while I'm on that train of thought, if we have a vig somewhere, gunning down one of the lurkers could potentially kick off this game in to easy mode. Just saying.

Also to note, fitz has been posting and catching up as promised. Milked has done a lot of what you've accused fitz of but has managed to skate along without too many people doing much about it. Also, I'm surprised people aren't calling out Orestes for his promise for content on Tuesday. He's gradually slipping in to my "willing to lynch" pool.

Also, look at T S O. Less than an hour after he was called out directly he appears and ho! Promise for content! He's paying enough attention to pop in here right after Street makes note of him. Oh God, here comes the paranoia again, of StreetScum giving daytalk cues to this guy. Definitely feeling a link between these two, though it is entirely possible that they're both town.

[ICEninja]

Quad was still in this game? Sheesh I thought he was replaced.

I dunno how much he enjoys playing scum. Hanging on to an interesting looking town game sounds more plausible than hanging on to a scum game in a player list like this one, but that could be a projection of my personal (and very strong) role preference.

I admit this crossed my mind as well, and I'm potentially willing to concede that he is indeed over his head but wants to play this game because of what looks like such a strong town lineup. It just seems, though, like it would be so easy for a player like him to scoot through day 1 if he's got one of the strong power players as a scum buddy (thus my paranoia regarding you giving him daytalk queues) then start playing day 2 with a fairly clean record, assuming he can produce some quality content.

His list of town/null reads and

leaning scum

on fitz is a joke.

Orestes better blow my mind in a post like, today, though. I'm still not giving fitz a town read either, though I feel like the push on him is kind of baseless. I also feel like Garmr is probtown, but I can't stand how little he's helped in actually finding scum. I don't mind an Orestes vote, but considering his content it feels empty.

Still happy with a T S O lynch, would be willing to vote for Orestes unless he does some heavy duty scum hunting VERY soon, and as much as I hate to lynch someone with 1 (albeit scummy) post, PoE leaves Milked a good option too. a TvK lynch would also work in a pinch, but I think I'd prefer one of the others at the moment.

[ICEninja]

@TSO - Also, an explanation of lack of vote on Fitz. I may even blow you a kiss if you can do both my and Street's requests.

Exactly. His vote is on YOU. And just just called you TOWN. He has exactly 1 scum read whom he's said nothing about.

So where the hell is this guy's wagon?

[ICEninja]

Fitz I'm getting tired of your tunneling. Herself has reason to be scrutinized but her lynch isn't happening today.

Care to comment on any other relevant activities? Such as T S O coming in, providing zero content and (considering his vote) providing an obviously 100% bullshit list of reads? Or perhaps Orestes continuing to fly under the radar? Maybe some thoughts on Garmr? I'd be willing to bet you'd have to go ISO him to remember anything he's said.

It's quite a few pages back that you did anything but defend yourself from Herself and trying to push a dead end wagon on her. I think the fact that I agree with most of your points about Herself is the only thing that's kept you out of my "good to lynch today" pool but you're getting closer and closer to making it.

[ICEninja]

I would have been all for Milked as opposed to TSO before he gave the player he's voting a town read. I can't wait for this guy's "loloops meant to vote fitz, because oh [insert half assed reasoning here]".

[ICEninja]

I really don't want my vote off T S O yet. His activity is scummier than Milked's inactivity.

Especially now that we have another player in the game, I'd like to hear what he has to say, especially since his suspects(?, I don't really understand his post) are all in my "meh" category right now.

That being said Milked is definitely a tolerable lynch for today. I'll hop on if people refuse to acknowledge just how scummy T S O is.

[ICEninja]

Also, in America finals aren't typically until the first week of December.

[ICEninja]

Your eagerness to get me lynched over other unreadable lurkers, despite the fact that I've explained my situation in games, makes me want to think you're scum with at least one inactive player.

You don't even seem to understand why I'm voting for you. You think I should lynch someone who hasn't posted much of anything instead of someone who is posting scummy as hell?

Once again I don't care much for the meta defense of TSO. If he's a universally useless player who OMGUS suspects town reads (me), votes another town read (SG), and gives only a single scum read with no reasoning or followup (fitz) then we probably have equal chance of hitting scum as town ANYWAY, and get rid of him either way. If we discount that meta, then we've got obvscum here.

Kid A just increased in my scum list SIGNIFICANTLY. He beetlejuiced in what, 7 minutes, with one word and zero contribution? Holy shit. I'm dropping him in to my lynch pile now. Orestes is solidly lynchable now too. TvK, while not getting a town read, feels more "meh" than scum to me.

So just an update, my lynch preference is:
TSO > Milked/Kid A > Orestes at the moment. Not interested in lynching anyone else, though if TvK or fitz got lynched I probably wouldn't cry over it.

[ICEninja]

Jeez, you two. Herself, and to a lesser extent fitz, are not realistic lynches today. Can we put away the cat claws already? You two are repeating the same stuff over and over at this point, and it's looking like town on town head smashing.

So Milked. You've been caching the pages and reading stuff, but you couldn't be bothered to even throw out a couple things here and there? Hrm.

[ICEninja]

^

[ICEninja]

I'm sorry Wagons.

I don't see any reason for anybody other than this slot to be lynched. He screwed up by giving his vote a town read then not switching it to his scum read and despite wanting to have played this game, knew he was goosed, and got out.

I'm having some hope that this game will be easymode after all instead of being manipulated by a master puppeteer, though it's a good bet he wanted to stay in this game because he had at least 1 competent scum buddy. I'll save that thought for day 2 though.

[ICEninja]

Damn. I really like Slaxx, IIRC. And I really want to give this slot a chance since it seems like there is going to be good content coming from here.

It's just really really hard for me to get over TSO's abrupt rush out of this game once he realized he was going to be the lynch.

I won't push too hard for the lynch, as if I'm wrong this guy's content is going to probably be helpful for day 2, but lately I've had about a 75% success rate for lynching scum on day 1 when I'm

this

sure. I'll let you guys decide what to do. Quadraxis needs to get his ass in here, and it's pretty much already too late for Orestes and Milked in my eyes, my vote will almost certainly drop on to one of the two of them on my first post day 2.

It is going to take a mountainous case to move my vote today, though.

[ICEninja]

Can we policy lynch Quadraxis?

Considering how little he's posted for having finished his V/LA a fair bit ago, plus how obnoxious his content this, actually makes this a serious request.

Town is being quite dysfunctional at the moment with no real solid wagons, except fitz (which admittingly isn't a bad wagon but not my preferred lynch) and a couple itty-bitty wagons. This silver guys replaces in and throws around some scum reads that have a basically zero chance of getting a lynch through today (though I wouldn't mind looking at lynching Herself tomorrow).

Plus I feel like everyone is going to forget almost instantly how insanely scummy TSO and the situation around his replacement so I doubt I'm even going to get my preferred lynch anyway.

[ICEninja]

Who the hell is Wake? I can't find anyone who replaced in to this game by that name.

So, why exactly should we go after Fitz? What exactly makes his wagon oh-so-solid and worthy of being today's lynch?

You clearly haven't been reading my posts. Fitz is a barely tolerable lynch for me. LolWagons sums up fairly decently what the case is against fitz, but also notice that I am in fact voting LolWagons and not fitz.

What exactly is your angle, ICE?

I've been trying hard to lynch scum. What the hell kind of question is this? I've pushed quite hard on Herself (like I said, read what I've actually posted this game please), to no avail. Town won't have it, at least not with the information we have. Lately I've been pushing hard on TSO's slot, but LolWagon's replacement in seems to have absolutely wiped clean the ridiculously suspicious means for which TSO replaced out and I just don't know what to do.

My post here is fairly updated on my reads, though with Quadraxis being useless, damn near impossible to read, and posting virtually no content you can toss him in with Milked and Kid A for secondary lynch preferences.

I still want TSO's slot lynched today first and foremost.

[ICEninja]

And yet you say he isn't a bad wagon. Now, is he barely a tolerable wagon, or is he not a bad wagon? Kindly make up your mind, please. And you did imply his wagon was solid, which gives cause for everyone to think you think his wagon is solid.

I said he is a barely tolerable LYNCH, as there are better lynches. The wagon on him is for good reasons, despite the fact that not everyone (cough LolWagons, possibly Herself) voting for him is town. I like the pressure on fitz though, his play has been poor and somewhat scummy. I want to see him scum hunt someone other than Herself, because as I pointed out earlier, a Herself lynch probably won't be happening today without a seriously solid case. I myself have gone back and forward on the slot being scummy or not several times.

I'll give Herself another go, though, since it seems like we have a replacement who suspects her and you seem to have some suspicion, too. I'll put a decent slot of time in to that tomorrow and come back what what will hopefully be my conclusive read on Herself for the day.

Read its Wiki why don't you?

I did. I simply left more confused and irritated than when I started.

Wake88 (alt of Quadraxis) replaces Quadraxis

Thank God.

[ICEninja]

And I do wonder your initial vote for Herself ICEninja. You note that she spoke of Sakura but voted for Fitz, and you think that's justification enough for voting for her. Kindly explain that thought process to the class why don't you?

It was a page one vote on what was (essentially) my first post. I wanted to make a vote something more interesting than "____ has an anime avatar" or "Your name is scummy".

Too much paranoia can be a detriment to Town as well you know. Yeah, Scum can be really hard to find, but make damned sure you're aren't picking off Town in your paranoia. Don't make me have to keep your paranoia in check, please.

Oh well gee then I'll just use omniscience instead of scum hunting to find where to place my vote.

Why are you making such a big deal out of the first couple pages of the game? I would expect you to be fully caught up in the game by this point and would instead be focusing on highly relevant topics instead of votes people made with near-zero information.

What's your current read on Squirrel Girl?

I've stated my read on her several times. I'm really getting tired of you asking questions that I've clearly (and sometimes repeatedly) stated in the game. It hasn't changed much since the last time I stated that I am fully unwilling to see Nusty McSexytail lynched today.

Your promised read of Herself today would be awesome.

I'll be hopefully taking care of that in the next hour or so. I need to catch up first.

With TSO gone, are you going to continue pursuing his replacement (LolWagons) today?

READ MY FUCKING POSTS.

Why do you plan so far in advance, like saying you'll for sure vote "X" or "Y" Day 2?

This actually is a good question. I mostly do that to remind myself of connections. I'll often make statements such as "I'll remember this connection when x player flips as it will have y impact on z player" so when I go back and re-read the game later I'll find that. Most of my preferred lynched past day 1 are weighed largely by interactions and vote counts, and sometimes I get things in one read-through that I miss in future ones, and some things I get in future read-throughs that I missed the first time around. It's extra tricky to do this with day talk, however, so these statements will probably hold slightly less weight than they do in most of my games.

How exactly did Kid A increase on your Scum list significantly?

He was lurking heavily, someone asked where he was, and he replied with one word less than 10 minutes after said statement. Kid A is clearly reading the thread and actively lurking. This is super scummy considering how strong of scum hunters we have this game.

Why do you think having a supposed Vig killing lurkers is a good thing for Town?

In your average game, I would tend to hold my shot as a vig for night 1 simply due to lack of information. However, this game has such a strong core of clearly town players that sifting out some of the unknowns could (as I believe I worded it) speed this game along to easy-mode cleanup.

Looking over Silver Bard's questions and scum hunting I find myself simply underwhelmed. It seems town enough that's he's scum hunting, especially since he's bringing new things to the table, but I just don't find his cases convincing. I've had lots of mixed feelings about Herself but I noted that few if any of his reasons for voting Herself significantly resonated. I flat out disagree with almost everything he says about Squirrel Lady, and find most of his points either not scummy or not indicative of alignment at all.

That being said I feel like his posts addressed to TvK have merit to them.

Silver feels more or less like misguided town, but I simply can't justify giving him an outright town read at the moment. I'll toss him along with Garmr in the "meh" pile that are more likely to be town than scum.

I do not like Milked's post 530. The reads themselves aren't terrible but the REASONS he gives for his reads are absolutely awful and feel either super fake or like someone who is just pretending to read the game. I could easily see a player like him not really reading the game and just being given queues who to read as what by day chat buddies and giving bullshit reasoning for it. This guy is still comfortably lynchable today.

If people are going to continue to ignore how intensely scummy TSO's replacing out of this game was, I'll very likely vote Milked.

[ICEninja]

Damn I really wanted to go through and solidify my read on Herself for the day but she has just shy of 100 posts and I ran out of time catching up. I'll do my best to get this done tonight.

[ICEninja]

I'm just going to be honest here, I didn't get around to fully reading through Herself. We're shy of 5 days now, Herself has as many people town reading her as people scum reading her, and just looking at the cost-benefit analysis of digging in super deep to her for day 1 purposes, motivation isn't there. I would love to discuss her at length for day 2, but Herself simply isn't going to be lynched in the next 5 days with the number of town reads she has,

especially

if she's scum. Scum wagons are hard as shit to push on day 1, so the only way Herself is lynchable day 1 is if she's town so let's not.

I really do like a lot of Wagon's content so far, though I also know that Slaxx is a very good player who would do everything in his power to salvage a slot even as bad as TSO. However for some reason I've hardly got ANY support on this stupidly obvious scum slot.

I don't care what anyone says, this is one of the most fragmented and dysfunctional towns I've ever been a part of. With this long in to day 1, 24 pages, and

no significant dominant wagon

we're not pulling any crazy lynches today.

Honestly I feel like scum is ACTIVELY trying to stall out today using day talk to force a last second claim then pile on to a lynch town doesn't want and it will push through because town has to in order to avoid a no lynch.

After this post:

But go ahead and vote me:
What was scummy about TSO replacing out? He said he was in 11 ongoing games, which is easily checked, so lying wouldn't make any sense.
I also can't imagine that lolwagon hasn't updated your view on that slot.

I'm pretty happy to see a MME lynch at this point. "Go ahead and vote me" is almost always a scum gambit. No one wants them to vote them but only scum benefits from having the

impression

given that they don't care who votes for them. Also, if he's read virtually any of my posts at all he'd know why my vote has been so stubbornly on Wagons.

So yeah.

Unvote, Vote My Milked Eek

. I would like to get a claim and intent to lynch preferably before the end of tomorrow to prevent any last second wagon shuffling shenanigans from scum.

[ICEninja]

T S O is not scummy for replacing out due to biting off more than he could chew.

The point isn't that T S O bit off more than he can chew. The point is in post 338 he explicitly states that he wants to play this game and that he's going to be dropping other games. Then for quite a few posts he continues to play this game. Right when the heat is turned up on him to a noticeable degree is exactly when he disappears, without anything.. No "sorry I tried but I just can't keep up" or excuse about being too busy IRL or anything.

As I said before, he knew he was goosed and got out.

But no one except fitz seems to recognize that so I guess we're lynching Eek (or fitz, but I definitely prefer Eek).

Also Bard, you seriously need to learn how to only quote relevant sections of a post.

[ICEninja]

Do you have experience with TSO vamoosing when being caught scum?

I haven't played with him. I don't like using meta. It shouldn't matter, though, he said he wanted to play in this game and he obviously did until he started being strung up.

Eek is definitely my favorite lynch who hasn't been replaced though. I still shudder when I read the reasons for her list of reads, they're awful.

[ICEninja]

We've got less than 4 days and town is no where even near consensus. This is driving me nuts. SCUM I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND IT WON'T WORK.

But seriously guys, don't let scum get away with this stalling shit. I'm going to remember vote count 17 tomorrow, and look at all those players on their L-6 votes (and Wake who isn't even voting). I would be willing to bet the game that there is 1 (probably 2) scum in that group of 6 people stalling this out.

If we run up a claim at the last second we are going to regret it. Don't let it happen.

[ICEninja]

Squirrel, maybe you feel differently about being scum but being strung up sucks and is difficult to get out of when you're actually scum (at least for me, I've been the day 1 lynch most of the games I'm scum in). The best thing he could do for his team was to get out, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if his day talk buddies were yelling at him to GTFO, as considering the scum perspective that's exactly what I would have been doing.

If he was town he should have been excited to scum hunt with a group of players he liked, but instead of he flaked out of this game. Seriously, look at the time line of it too. Post 390, November 15th a little after 8:00 AM according to my time stamp. He clearly states that he's going to do more later. Less than an hour later fitz comes in and drops a vote on him. 6 and a half hours later, he is replaced. You also need to factor in TSO sending the PM to mod, mod reading it, then sending the PM to LolWagons to tell him he's in and send the role PM and make sure everyone is on board so the request to replace out was probably a fair bit less than that timeline wise.

You can't look at that without being sketched out.

[ICEninja]

Also I think there is an interesting link between MME and havingfitz, so figuring out MME might help figuring out havingfitz.

I was thinking this exact thing as well.

I'll respond to MME's posts in a bit.

[ICEninja]

There isn't much in Eek's posts worth responding to, really.

I'm a dude.

My bad there are lots of females in this game and you have an avatar I would associate with a female having.

But yes, you're right in that my list was superficial (and thus awful).

The fact that you didn't update it makes this as good as a scum confession we're going to get.

All aboard the My Milked Eek train.

[ICEninja]

This Street/Eek interaction feels really weird to me. I can't quite put my finger on it.

I'll read more in to it after we have a flip.

[ICEninja]

You said very little directed towards me, and nothing you said gave me any indication that I'm wrong about you. In fact you completely fessing up to making a superficial reads list without giving us a non-superficial reads list, which all but confirms my suspicion. What more do you want me to say?

You've hardly scum hunted worth a shit. You've given a couple half assed reasons for voting Garmr and that's it. If you were town you'd be giving us reasons to lynch someone else instead (or at the least, reasons to lynch someone tomorrow after you flip town). But you aren't, you're responding to people and saying things like "go ahead and vote me" and "I'm a safe lynch" and "I admit my reads were

fabriated

superficial."

You and fitz are competing wagons. The fact that scum is probably scattered about voting useless votes to run us up to deadline suggests that one or both wagons are town fueled. If you flip town I'm going to take a hard look at fitz, as I find it unlikely that both wagons are on town (especially since most of the players I'm suspicious of have dutifully avoided both wagons). If you're scum then you've got a buddy or two pushing fitz. Even if you flip town, we're finding scum based on your corpse. If you're scum we'll probably find another anyways. Lynching you is the right move.

Street isn't scum hunting you how I'd expect him to. If you're town I doubt it means anything but if you're scum then I may have to take the paranoia up a notch.

I'd say letting town flounder about until 24 hours before deadline would be much more damaging to town. I'm not even tunneling on you, I've had 4 players that I've been OK lynching. You just end up being the right one to lynch. The fact that we have (what looks very much like) a VT claim from you makes me feel safer about lynching you, too. It's unlikely that you're a scum PR but I'm fine hitting a goon today.

[ICEninja]

Street isn't scum hunting you how I'd expect him to. If you're town I doubt it means anything but if you're scum then I may have to take the paranoia up a notch.

So, let me get this straight. Street according to you is some mafiascum prodigy (if you can spin my words, I can spin yours), yet you don't think he can easily bus a scumpartner? He (or they) have posted a few suspicions of me before, they could have easily continued down that path. If anything, that's a townie behavior. I still don't get what you were trying to achieve by noting that.

I'm pretty sure this was a scum slip. And now I'm going to be INCREDIBLY paranoid of Street.

[ICEninja]

I would honestly be surprised if BOTH Eek and fitz were scum. I suppose in a game where we have this many competent pro-town players it would be possible, but it just feels implausible that town wagoned two scum already. I don't really want to focus too hard on who is scum for day 2 yet, but I tend to be transparent about what certain flips will make me feel about others. And just about every game I do it someone calls me out for "lining up lynches" or something along those lines but I'm going to keep doing it because I think being clear about that sort of thing is the correct play.

However look at this: The Eek wagon was so close to closing out then all the sudden at the last second a Garmr wagon explodes out of nowhere. This is exactly what I would expect to happen if Eek was scum. It's damn hard to lynch scum on day 1, and wagons on scum fall apart at the drop of a hat. I will admit that Eek put together a half decent case on Garmr, but it is just too little too late for me to be convinced that Garmr is scum and Eeked is town. Also the way that Eek's wagon just fell apart in favor of what is probably an easily pushed mislynch at this point (Garmr) makes me fairly confident of where my vote is.

Now to respond to Wake:

Apologies, ICE, but I'm not buying that T S O's scummy for replacing out when in so many games and under such time constraints. I myself have done something similar under such constraints, and was Town. That you have continued to push this angle leaves more questions than answers at this point.

I found it really scummy, and I was frustrated as hell that hardly anyone else saw it. I suppose it's possible that I was wrong, but it just seems super damning to me. I continued to push it because I continued to believe it.

That being said, I recognized that his lynch wasn't going to happen today so I more or less dropped it except when people brought it up, at least for now.

I've yet to hear anything truly convincing from you as to why we should lynch Eek; sure, we are running out of time, but I'm inclined to believe that we still have some time.

If you haven't been convinced by what I've said then you probably aren't going to be convinced. I'm happy with where my vote is, I've given ample reasoning for it, and multiple players have found my reasons sound and have agreed with me. I honestly can live with a few players disagreeing with me so long as we don't end up lynching retarded, like say Garmr. You may be less paranoid about running out of time but I've been in games where we go right up to deadline and it is stressful as HELL. Not everyone is online, people change their vote to places they're less happy with it, and scum usually get their way (and sometimes multiple claims if they're lucky. I do NOT want that happening here).

Scum may or may not be stalling; I know games where Scum was all-too-active, and it was the town who were dragging their feet.

Who benefits from avoiding all the lynchable wagons until the very last second? Who benefits from making themselves harder to read in the vote counts? That's right, scum do. I like your content so I'm having a hard time pinning you as scum (and I'm glad no one took my suggestion to policy lynch you seriously, I apologize for that by the way I was just incredibly frustrated with the state of the game), but the fact that you continue to hold your vote doesn't seem to serve any town purpose.

How do you reconcile the existence of games where all 3-4 Scum were on one wagon? What convinces you that Scum is moreso scattered rather than focused?

The fact that there hasn't been a wagon of more than 3 or 4 people this game pretty much period. I think there might have been a couple pages where Eek had 5? Sure some games scum pile their votes on, but think about it. Scum have day talk. This game has been dragging on RIDICULOUSLY. There were (at the time of me making that post) 6 players with solo votes or no votes, which is just shy of

half the players in this game

. There weren't 3 scum on one wagon, I would bet the game on it.

In (647) you again try to find ways to subdue and bring down Eek, like a lion trying to bring down a water buffalo.

As it is right now, I see you as either paranoid Town or persistent Scum.

I'm not sure how to respond to that. Eek referred to Street scum hunting him as busing a scum buddy. It looked like Eek screwed up and admitted something he hasn't, don't tell me you've never seen noob scum do that before.

At least now it feels like you're actually reading my posts.

[ICEninja]

Wake, I find your questions towards Eek odd, with maybe the exception of the first one. He just posted a huge case on Garmr, he's already claimed (I take it back that you're fully reading the thread), and has pretty much used those exact words to describe me.

Why are you asking so many questions? Many of these are completely irrelevant (I agree with Herself's thoughts on your questions directed to her). I'm starting to feel like a lot of your questions are just to make it look like you're scum hunting. I'm getting really twitchy regarding you.

Some of your questions are fine. Some of them are pointless. I feel like the first two you're asking me are loaded questions. I definitely would question your motives of asking such empty questions as town, though I can see a merit in a scum strategy of using your shitty and pointless questions to invalidate the ones that matter (for example your questions towards TvK. Those are all very pertinent).

I have 3 completed scum games.

First was this game where I was strung up and destroyed day 1.

Second was tihs game where...I was strung up and destroyed day 1. I'm not very good scum.

Finally is this one where I believe a seriously lucky role block gave me a HUGE advantage where I more or less lead town around some crazy wild goose chase using more info than I should have had. It was pretty much the only decent game I've ever played as scum.

[ICEninja]

Garmr I was going to let this go but it has happened too many times and it's a pet peeve of mine. If something is cold, you don't say its accold, if something is tall you don't say its attall, so if something is much, you don't say its allot. A. LOT. TWO WORDS.

Look. You admit that my case on garm is half decent (I find it superb) yet it is too late to be convinced that garm is scum.

Honestly, why do you think one half decent case is going to change my views on him being on the townish end of my "meh" pile for pretty much all day, when it comes from my strongest scum read? It wasn't an awful case, there were a couple things worth noticing, and should I end up wrong and you flip town I'll certainly go back and look at it in more depth, but you've done so much scummy stuff I can't let it go. If you really are town then you getting lynched is on you for saying the stuff I've pointed out and am voting you for.

Why are you hesitant to change your opinion on me? Why are you so fixated on your scenario where I'm scum?

Because I'm pretty confident that I'm right. It's that simple.

Then there are these two statements:

Are you always this stubborn?

I'll be ignoring your posts. I don't care what you're going to say, I'm not reading it.

Yeah...it shouldn't be too hard to notice the double standard here.

ICE, how familiar are you with my playstyle?

If you're Slaxx, then I remember playing with you and remember liking you, and I seem to recall that you're a particularly good mod. That's about it.

[ICEninja]

There should be no town reads on Kid A. I would be happy seeing him lynched here and now if for whatever reason we couldn't manage a MME lynch.

Bard isn't my preferred lynch, and I actually think his case on Garmr is half decent too (and more credible because I think it is less likely to be coming from scum than Eek's case), but I'm definitely not handing him any town reads.

LolWagons, because you're a good player. Like I said, I recall you being a good/enjoyable player but I can't recall any games you've replaced in to. Honestly I don't really remember what was specifically going through my head when I made that post beyond frustration at how everyone was so easily letting TSO's stuff go, so I'm not sure exactly what I can say about it.

[ICEninja]

I noted that a lot of TSB's points regarding a scum read on SG required Herself to be scum and a lot of the points regarding a scum read on Herself required SG to be scum which is absolutely did not like even a little bit. The Garmr case is a lot better though.

[ICEninja]

The case wasn't more town motivated, it came from someone who isn't almost certainly scum.

[ICEninja]

Hmm I was feeling Garmr was the least likely to be scum out of the 3 main wagons, but that vote felt a hell of a lot more like self preservation than believing he's lynching scum.

I guess I could get on board with a fitz lynch but it still isn't my preference. God, town, you're driving me nuts. As soon as I feel like I'm sure I have scum that person becomes freaking difficult to lynch, which always happens when I'm right about scum on day 1 but I'm feeling a lot more useless this game than normal. Do my cases really suck that much? Nothing I've done all day has gotten much in the way of traction despite having quite a few players reading me town.

I swear I'm going to lose some hair over this game.

[ICEninja]

See Garmr's 775 just isn't coming from scum. It's probably between fitz and MME.

Ugh I have such a headache right now. I really hate lynching someone other than MME. He's already claimed, and I can tell scum is either pushing the Garmr wagon or the fitz wagon (probably Garmr wagon, I feel a LOT better about the fitz wagon at the moment) to get another claim.

This is not what I want but...

Unvote, vote havingfitz

. That's L-1. Please claim and do it quick we're running out of time.

If we mislynch this shit, it's NOT on me. I'm just doing this so we don't fucking no lynch, because you guys ignored my repeated warnings to come to a damn consensus.

[ICEninja]

Says the guy who has been solo voting the most town player in the game for quite some time? *Cough*

[ICEninja]

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

Best post by TvK to memory.

[ICEninja]

Just saw claim, don't have time to read through stuff for an hour or two but just in case:

Unvote fitz

that claim is about as conformable as a claim gets so it would be flat out stupid for scum to claim that.

[ICEninja]

That's retarded, the phone at my post. I'll make it again when I get home.

[ICEninja]

I'm catching up right now. We've got less than a day to go and this game is stressing the shit out of me right now.

[ICEninja]

Alright so right now it looks like this is between Garmr and Bard. I really just don't see Garmr being scum based on the way his wagon formed, though I'm not super convinced that Bard is scum either.

It just looks like I'm not getting my way regardless. I wish town just fucking listened to me and lynched Eek back on Monday or Tuesday.

I suppose in the end this is going to be a shit ton of information to process overnight, though, which could kickstart tomorrow very nicely.

This sucks though, this will be my second time putting a player I'm not convinced is scum at L-1. I'm mostly just crossing my fingers at this point.

Vote The Silver Bard

. This is L-1. Please claim, and once again please do it quick we're quite short on time.

[ICEninja]

Wow. So Herself was shot and no one else? That bugs me a little, but also kind of makes sense.

There are quite a few possibilities here.

The obvious: Fitz is lying scum and he shot Herself. There are no other kill roles. However, Herself was definitely a suboptimal scum target unless they had some idea she was a PR. I was fully expecting either Street (ffery) or Regfan to die tonight, with the possibility of Wake. I figured I would survive the night as several players started shifting their reads on me towards scummy.

Very likely: We have a town doctor/role blocker/jail keeper. I feel like 2 masons, vig, and JK all together is probably too strong but RB and doctor aren't crazy strong roles, and those 4 against a fairly strong scum team (including day talk, never forget that god damn day talk) could potentially match up. I agree that the likelihood of an information role in cop/tracker/watcher is fairly low. I'll hold any setup speculation, but

this is the situation I believe is the most likely for reasons I really don't want to say

. The fact that both Ffery and Reg were super town power players makes scum shooting one of them super obvious, so it wouldn't really be that hard for one of those roles to guess which one.

Also possible: Scum could have potentially held their bullet and let fitz shoot, if they simply knew his reads were wrong and he was going to shoot town for them ANYWAY, giving scum a nice little benefit of being able to speed lynch fitz today. I don't believe this scenario is partiuclarly likely, however, as no one has jumped up and said they want fitz dead right away.

Then there's the GOD THIS BETTER NOT BE THE FUCKING CASE: If fitz is a VT and claimed vig to survive then I will never play with him again. If this is the case, fitz, you better just tell us

right now

.

For the record I more or less believe the claim (once again, it's too confirmable, scum knows for a fact fitz is dead if they fake claim a vig), but I'm a little skeptical now. I'm going to put fitz as suspicious, but it is risky as hell for scum to leave him alive so if he's scum we'll probably know soon enough. With the high likelihood of him dying night 2, especially if he agrees to shoot within a pool that town suggests, we're safe keeping him alive (ESPECIALLY if we nail scum today).

I'm going to talk about the rest of day 1 (including my reads) in another post because it will probably come out to be fairly long.

[ICEninja]

I'm going to spit out of a lot of information here to help my organize my thoughts. Analysis will follow.

Alright so day 1 was kind of a mess. Things seemed to happen in stages. The early part of day 1 is what I think of as the "inactives phase". This spanned for quite a few pages where just under half the player list was either lurking or not in the game at all.

My Milked Eek's first content post was on page 22.
T S O's first content post arguably didn't happen, and LolWagons didn't replace until page 17.
Quadraxis/Wake's first content post was page 20.
Orestes posted minimal content, but the last of it was page 4, and TSB didn't get in here until page 19.
Kid A's first post worth reading was on page 19.
TvK, while occasionally throwing in content here and there, was largely a non-factor of much of this early game as well.

The result of this was a massive stall in the game and SEVERE lack of solid votes until a point where most day 1 phases had already ended with a lynch.

There was, however, a large amount of town hunting done during this point in time, so it wasn't all wasted. I, as well as several others, established strong town reads that could lead this town to a solid victor.

The end of the day, however, was

a dirty disgusting mess

, that could have been solidly avoided had I not been the only person being mindful of the deadline. I certainly hope now everyone has a better understanding of my significant distaste for waiting until deadline to make a move. Seriously guys, we got 2 claims and a self hammer from that mess.

I stand by the fact that there was scum hiding by in the shadows with useless votes letting town tear themselves apart as we got closer and closer to deadline. Taking a look at vote counts starting around number 18 or so will give us lots of information regarding that. We see here TvK the first on TSB's eventual wagon. Street, Lol, and Reg all had early positions on fitz's wagon, with Herself as an honorable mention having thrown early suspicion towards fitz. Herself and SG were the early adopters of the MME wagon, with me probably being the strongest proponent of that lynch later on (save maybe for Herself), and then MME being the solo early push on the Garmr wagon. Wake held his vote for an excessively long time (I'll talk about this later), but the REAL stand out vote here

that holds for a really really long time

is Kid A's vote on Street.

Now this vote on street is super significant. Firstly, it was

useless

. He may as well have been not voting. Street had a basically zero chance of being the lynch, and on top of that Kid A had absolutely TRASH reasons for his vote being there. Seriously, look in his ISO. He places his vote here and gives literally no reason for it. He says he'll give a reason later "assuming he still likes it". This gives himself a HUGE out should there be backlash for him placing a vote there. Finally here, Kid A gives his reason for that vote on Street. I would like to mention here that the vote came on page 19 where the (shitty) reason for voting occurred on page 3.

Combine this with the fact that Kid A doesn't move his vote until here

where Kid A scum slips

. He states that scum is "seemingly pretty well powered", when as town he could not possibly have this information, as none of us knew about ANYTHING besides the day talk, which could be scum's only power for all we know. This suspicion of Herself came out of nowhere, and looked like he was hoping to get some traction here as there had been some talk of Herself being suspicious.

I'm not forgetting his extremely scummy beetlejuice act.

His final nail in the coffin is his eventual joining of the TSB wagon that was probably the worst vote there. The justification for the vote is the scummiest part. Instead of flat out saying "I'm voting a null read because town is going to mislynch otherwise", Kid A tries to give (more shitty) reasons why his vote is where it is.

I'm not even a little bit of a fan of his instant dropping vote on fitz, either. Actually this reminds me, I was slightly wrong in my previous post about no one wanting to speed lynch fitz, Kid A being scum would suggest that scum might have even no-killed to frame him then speed lynch him.

Vote Kid A

. I'll explain the rest of my reads in my next post.

[ICEninja]

The other interesting thing to look at during day 1 is where the wagons came from and went.

MME's wagon was largely pushed by Herself and SG for a long time, with both myself and Garmr being a part of it at some point. This wagon dissolved as soon as Herself jumped to fitz, and Garmr sheeped. Knowing my preferred wagon was no longer a realistic option, I reluctantly followed. Ffery, Slaxx, and Reg all look fairly town to me for solidly pushing fitz for a long time and being confident in their read on him. The weird thing is vote count 24, where I start having a harder time figuring out what happened.

I actually really liked Garmr's vote on TvK here. It didn't gain much traction, unfortunately, and I would have liked to see where that wagon went.

Towards the end of day 1, Garmr went up my town list significantly. MME I'm still really confused about, and is probably still in my "willing to lynch" pile, but is definitely not my preferred.

TvK would probably be my second best bet for today's lynch, largely for how the TSB wagon formed. TvK shot over to Garmr when shit hit the fan (which gives rise to the theory of a possible TvK/MME pairing). I don't at all like how TvK was the only vote on Bard for so long considering this. Especially considering his reads list here, he clearly wanted TSB to be the day 1 lynch. This obviously wasn't true, as TvK didn't go back to the TSB lynch later. He wanted to stay off the mislynch and away from his scum buddy Kid A.

Reg, Ffery, and SG all stand in my "will not lynch" pile for reasons that remain from yesterday. Garmr is pretty close to joining this pile himself.

Wake is the only other slot besides MME that I'm having trouble reading. Looking purely at situations, scum reads, and where his votes lie (or more accurately don't lie) indicates a decent chance that Wake is scum. However, most of his content reads as fairly town to me. I don't like the wording in a lot of his suspicions, things along the lines of "You seem like a great guy but I'm starting to scum read you", etc, trying to keep people off his back. Also a lot of his questions were either recently answered by posts the questioned player had just posted or the answers should have been obvious (a good example would be his questions to MME in this post, though the same post contains great questions directed to TvK and fitz).

With solid scum reads in Kid A and TvK, however, I think I'd like to hold off on any Wake suspicion for now, especially since a majority of his content does indeed seem to be town motivated. I'll put him below Garmr but above MME.

For ease of viewing, I'll put together a little list. They are more or less in order within each individual group, though the first one is difficult to order. Fitz is obviously dependent on night actions, and is placed right in the middle because of this.

Probably not scum:
Ffery, Reg, SG, Garmr.

Not sure:
Fitz, Wake, MME

Probably scum:
TvK

Definitely scum:
Kid A

[ICEninja]

How likely is it that we're dealing with a 3-member Scumgroup with Daytalk? I think it's unlikely, and that instead we're up against a 2-man team. Or, we're dealing with 3 Scum + Daytalk... + a few more Town PRs?

All are possible. With the current information we have I'm running with the assumption that there are 3 scum, though it is generally too early in the game to really consider that information to use regrading scum hunting. My scum game where I had day talk had 2 scum, one Godfather and one role blocker. I'm guessing that isn't the current setup in this game, however, as we already have a claimed vig and flipped mason. The lack of investigative roles would lead to a lack of meaningful godfather, suggesting a PROBABLY 3 man scum team. Unless fitz is scum and we have a cop after all, so it is entirely possible. I'm try to not rule anything out at this point.

You, ICE, knew what you were doing when you voted Bard, and it's because you expected me to hammer player "X" at L-1. You wanted to get rid of him, didn't you? In spite of not being assuaged by his guilt you voted for him anyways, which drops you down into my Scumpile as well.

I made it very clear who my preferred lynches were. None of them were viable lynch options. We were approaching deadline dangerously, and letting town no-lynch could have been disastrous. I also find it odd that you accused me of being scummy because I voted a player whom I was not convinced was guilty, yet you not only explained your intent to do so during day 1, have admitted you would have done it after the fact. A quick look through the end of your day 1 play doesn't show you having ANY suspicion of Bard. Care to explain this?

I'm not saying town necessarily would have let the no-lynch happen had I not voted, but I wasn't willing to take the risk. I put 2 players to L-1 whom I didn't want to, and that's just because town ran shit right up to deadline despite my repeated requests to avoid doing that.

ICEninja, Regfan, and Fferyllt stick out in my mind as Scum, with Havingfitz and Garmr as a distant fourth and fifth, so it all boils down to analyzing with care and every one of their reactions. MME's and Lol's absence is starting to irk me, too.

About TvK it feels like he's semi-lurking, because he's the only player I keep forgetting is in this game.

Considering how you just talked about how SG isn't obvtown, you're suspecting a hell of a lot of the cast here. This is odd, considering a majority of players have multiple strong town reads. Kid A isn't even mentioned here, yet he's easily the scummiest player here. You also had your vote on him for a short while during the end of day 1 yet you've not put him even as your distant 4th or 5th scummiest. Care to reconcile this as well?

ICEninja is shifting while searching for reasons to dump suspicion on others. Your ever-shifting stance towards everyone (including myself) is apparent.

Please point out these ever shifting stances. I've had a difficult time reading you all game, as you've been a various shade of null pretty much the entire time you've been here. Kid A has been on my scum list for quite some time, and I've never town read TvK. No one in my town pile is new. In fact my list of reads for day 2 is quite similar to the reads I've had for quite some time now.

Either you're confused or lying.

Strangely he continues to repeat the same empty diatribe about my questions not helping Town, in spite of the fact that they do help.

I've pointed out specific questions that were worthless and I've pointed out why. I've also noted that some of your questions are indeed town motivated. I'm getting tired of this misrepresentation.

Oddly enough he contradicts himself in (903) by stating Regfan, Fferyllt, and SG are in his "will not lynch" pile, yet at the end of his post has them as "probably not Scum."

Those players you just listed are all probably not scum. Therefore I am unwilling to lynch them today. Please explain how this is a contradiction.

He should also explain why SG is even on there.

Her push on Milked Eek looked town. I'm not a fan of how much she simply disappeared towards the end of the day, but just reading through her posts I just find a general town motivation. It isn't really worth my time to go in to detail as to why unless there is a large wagon developing on her, which I don't see happening.

Since I have so many questions for you I'm going to list them in a nice order so you can go ahead and answer all of them.
1) Why am I scummy for voting Bard, whose guilt seemed unconvincing, when you made it clear both before and after that you had intentions to hammer the exact same player, despite a significant lack of any mention of suspicion of the player?
2) What are your thoughts on all of Kid A's votes during day 1?
3) You had your vote on Kid A for a short time towards the end of day 1, and have expressed suspicion of him in your post, yet you don't even have him listed as your distant 4th or 5th most suspicious. Why is that?
4) Where have I had "ever-shifting stances" on players? Can you point out anything that doesn't track?
5) How is it a contradiction that I am unwilling to lynch today players that I feel are probably not scum?

Your responses will significantly cement my read on you.

[ICEninja]

^ Possibly TvK's best post of the game so far.

[ICEninja]

Reg I agree with a lot of your reads but honestly the fact that you're town reading Kid A for terrible reasons is REALLY worrying me. I suppose his Orestes suspicion was worthwhile, if very weak, but

nothing

in his early posts were really worth reading.

Seriously. Do my a favor and go read Street's post 62. Firstly, how can anyone possibly justify a scum read based on that one post? Secondly, how can that one post, which was on page 3, possibly justify a page 19 vote when there was SO MUCH SHIT TO DISCUSS?? Kid A didn't discuss any of it, he dropped his vote for god awful reasons and said in a way that I interpret as "I'm not going to explain my vote until I get reactions from voting the most town player in the game".

You read his paranoia as town?? 3 of his scum reads during day 1 were Street, myself, and Herself. Those have been your 3 strongest town reads all game, and one or multiple of them have been included in virtually everyone's town list. There's a difference between paranoia and attempting to undermine people's town reads. Also, how do you feel about

how long

Kid A's vote was on Street? There was tons to discuss, but every single player in the game knew that Street wasn't going to be the day 1 lynch. Why keep such a useless vote for so long? How is that town at all?

Also how do you feel about the fact that he was lurking, someone called him out on it, and 7 minutes later he posted a one word contentless post? If that isn't proof that he's been active lurking I've got no clue what is.

When Kid A flips scum your town read is going to come in to

serious

question here. Your reasons for town reading that player are completely fabricated.

[ICEninja]

al·lot (-lt)
tr.v. al·lot·ted, al·lot·ting, al·lots
1. To parcel out; distribute or apportion: allotting land to homesteaders; allot blame.
2. To assign as a portion; allocate: allotted 20 minutes to each speaker.

As in, we have this allotted time to do this task.

A. LOT. IS. TWO. WORDS.

GAH

.

[ICEninja]

So Garmr. You seem to be trying to do some analysis, but in the end I can barely tell who you think is scum and why. Give me your top 3 lynch preferences, in order, with basic reasons why, please.

[ICEninja]

allot(Jokes ice a lot)

Looks like your vote should be on Kid A, or at least TvK. Explain why your vote isn't.

[ICEninja]

So you're telling me that someone making up insanely wild setup speculation that's obviously bullshit and suspects all of your strongest town reads is more likely to come from town than scum?

I'm really not understanding your thought process at all, especially since you have 3 instances of "you're right that's scummy...but..." in your responses to me.

You're trying really damn hard to ignore how scummy he is based on weak town tells. I've been stressed all game about thinking one of my strong town reads has fooled me, and I'm feeling more and more like I know who that is.

[ICEninja]

I'm becoming increasingly suspicious of this Wake fellow, and still am eagerly awaiting his response to

my

annihilator beams.

I'm also curious if we'll ever see LolWagons again.

Milked's vote keeps him safely out of my lynch pool for the moment, because if Kid A is scum (which I believe almost certainly) then this Plusle probably isn't.

[ICEninja]

ICE, would you vote Wake?

It will be a monumental task to get my vote off Kid A. He is, however, steadily increasing in my scumdar.

As for his reads, I think his "Annihilator Beam" shows an idea of his reads, for instance I'd imagine that he was reading Orestes and Kid A as scummy in Post 351 while wanting to know more about Garmr, same thing re; his reads in Post 465 and Post 482.

See the funny thing about this is he DOESN'T actually outright state his reads. He can go through and throw his vote wherever he wants for arbitrary reasons because he wasn't giving out committed reads. I mean seriously, stop looking at content for a second and

just look at the votes

. Look at the vote counts, look where his vote is all day, and consider for a second which alignment benefited more from those votes.

This is even moreso the case with Kid A

and yet you are ignoring the real scum tells in favor of bad town tells.

In Mafia questions are asked in order to provide information for everyone. Whether one thinks a question is useless is immaterial, because it isn't immaterial to the one asking those questions. Questions are like beams of light meant to cut through the darkness, and although some beams may be weaker than others the collective illumination is meant to help. For Town there's nothing but net gain, because not only does it promote reaction, but also discussion and by extension... knowledge. By hindering that process energy is spent defending the tenets of information-gathering, instead of sending forth greater and more numerous beams.

I can definitely see scum posting something like this to just say "boy oh boy look at how town I've been, look at how productive I've been" when he has probably the lowest ratio of number of words to being productive in the game.

...this is just a tiny fraction of the questions I've asked. It doesn't take into account the current thoughts and feelings in my substantial posts. If that is an issue for you SG, I don't think I can help you with that.

And you know what? Other players have gathered SIGNIFICANTLY more information than that simply by pressuring their scum reads. You didn't do this at all during day 1.

SG, you can find my opinions in my ISO. Please read my posts before talking about things you don't quite understand.

OH. MY. GOD. I literally busted up laughing when I read this. This has been what I've been saying all along, the answers to half or more of your questions could have been EASILY answered by simply going through and reading the thread. However, you said that you wanted the answers because they're relevant and other bullshit you came up with to make yourself look town. Now look at what you're saying when someone is asking you a question. Scum love double standards like this.

Oh and speaking of double standards, I asked you a nice tidy list of questions. You have ignored them. You, on the other hand, have responded to such silence as the following:

Kindly answer my questions in that post, please. I'm not particularly satisfied with your lukewarm rebuttal, so I'm deciding whether to fire upon you sooner or later. What do you think?

I'm beginning to have doubts about Herself, considering Mollie has failed to ask[answer?] a few of my questions.

I would rather ask you questions directly, rather than hunt and guess, and assume what it is you're meaning. Asking questions is explicitly how you gather information. Please Eek, answer those four questions.

Guys, please answer my questions. You may think they've been answered already, but we all can't assume that, so it would help Town if your answered briefly in this format so that no one has to hunt/guess/assume your answers. (I think I'm going to start time-stamping my questions, too.)

Sooooo yeah. Mind answering my questions, Mr. Double Standard?

[ICEninja]

Yeah, I'm definitely seeing both SG and ICEninja as Scum. In my view both of them are teaming up.

"Oh my God, you guys suck!"

That's alright. I've suspected for some time that you were slowly building up reasons to try and justify your eventual vote for me.

That, or maybe you've been playing increasingly scummy as time goes on.

Please show where I haven't outright stated any of my reads, ICE.

Shall I link almost every single one of your posts made during day 1? That is both a stupid and unreasonable request.

The rest of the stuff in that particular quote block is "nuh uh" and isn't worth responding to. You didn't actually say anything to change my belief of my statements.

Your question makes little sense as a whole because I didn't care who I hammered, so long as Player X reached L-1. We had less than 24 hours, and I figured a lynch (even a mislynch) would be better for us Day 1 than a no-lynch. I didn't care who it was; it didn't matter because a no-lynch is terrible. You, however, knew Bard wasn't that convincing as a Scum read. You knew full well: "This sucks though, this will be my second time putting a player I'm not convinced is scum at L-1. I'm mostly just crossing my fingers at this point." My gut (a feeling) also told me you knew I planned to hammer Player X, so you got him up to L-1.

Oh OK. So you don't care who you hammer, regardless if they're not your top scum pick or not. But when I vote someone to put them at L-1, regardless if they're not my top scum pick or not, for the

exact same reason you listed

, I'm scummy and you're not. All you did in this quote was confirm EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

I forgot. The reason I voted for him was because at that point he wasn't really contributing. He was the weak link. Since then he's managed to pull a little bit more of his own weight.

You have, also, cast suspicion on him during day 2 in one of your big wall posts. Did you forget about that, as well? Also, you seem to have largely ignored my substantial case on him. I wonder why that is...

To be blunt, I view you as maneuvering Scum.

I'm using my vote as a tool to find scum. The first half of day 1 was extremely difficult due to the lack of lurkers and number of strong town reads I had. For example:

14—Voted for Herself because she planted a vote on Fitz instead of SG, who she was talking to.
26—Got away from Herself. Went after Street Hassle.
35—Got away from Street, went after Banksys. "I hate to be flipping my vote around so much."
111—Abandoned Banksys wagon, went after Herself again.

These early votes were instrumental in gaining reads on players. Voting people, giving reasons, and watching how they respond is a lot more helpful than, say, asking questions that have already been answered.

274—Unvotes, finds reasons to go after T S O

TSO was my preferred lynch for stated reasons. Town refused to lynch him. It was pointless to keep my vote on him.

594—Unvotes, finds reasons to go after MME

With town unwilling to lynch LolWagons, MME was my second choice for a lynch. Therefore I put my vote there. Kind of makes sense, yeah?

769—Unvotes, finds reasons to go after Fitz

This is a lie, I didn't "find reasons" to go after fitz. I clearly stated that he was

not

my lynch preference, but instead the best of the possible lynches.

868—Votes The Silver Bard, finds reasons to justify vote

Please point out where I "found reasons" to justify that vote.

901, 902,903—Nestled within 902, you've found reasons to vote for Kid A

If by "found reasons nestled within" you mean "made a pretty damn strong case as to why he is scum to convince others to vote for scum" then yes, that is exactly what I did.

908, 910, 934, 958—Increasingly starting to angle for reasons to lynch me. Vote is expected soon.

You continue being scummy, then you're next after Kid A flips scum.

And this only includes the votes, and not all of the sentences where you posit your changing suspicions on people.

Oh, right. I forgot that scum hunting was scummy. Thanks for reminding me.

What is #5 referring to, please?

Oddly enough he contradicts himself in (903) by stating Regfan, Fferyllt, and SG are in his "will not lynch" pile, yet at the end of his post has them as "probably not Scum."

Wake, for the record, SG is accusing you of not providing opinions. You're telling her to prove it by showing her where you haven't done that. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? You are the one that has to prove that you shared your reads during day 1, and not left yourself open to switching your opinions around based on whatever is most convenient.

[ICEninja]

So Wake, I'm scummy for having inconsistent reads. However as Garmr just pointed out, you just called a strong scum read and weak scum read your strongest strongest town reads. Also you're really giving SG, who has done nothing but scum hunt you, and wasn't a scum read before that, a strong scum read.

Its funny how half of the things you call me scum for, you do yourself. I've been caught as scum before for doing exactly that.

That being said Kid A needs about 4 more votes on him before we worry about Wake.

[ICEninja]

Hey mod, I've got MME voting for Kid A. Could you do me a favor and check the vote count?

~ Fixed.

[ICEninja]

This back and forward is too much. Both sides have made their points and it is up to the rest of us to decide what to do with it. I doubt SG will convince me that Wake is scummier than Kid A but I doubt Wake will convince me he's town by responding to SG.

Wake in particular is tainting my read on him with too much emotion. Come back after dealing with your Thanksgiving plans and let me read you instead of getting all upset. If you're really town all you're doing is digging yourself a hole.

SG I don't think you're wrong but you're also just repeating yourself and disagreeing. Give others a chance to catch up and weigh in, then switch your vote to Kid A. We can decide on Wake tomorrow.

P:edit I agree that SG saying your posts are 100% worthless (which I don't believe she's said but that seems to be your impression) is too much but I do feel like you attacking people for not liking all of your questions is a bit ridiculous. You have contributed SOME and scum hunted SOME. It isn't zero. You just do a lot of IWoA as SG pointed out.

Also, Garmr, get your damn vote on Kid A already.

[ICEninja]

Well, she keeps saying everything I say is crap. How do you reason with that or not lose your temper?

Best way is to take a day off from MS and log back on when you're feeling less stressed about IRL stuff.

And i don't think I've personally attacked anyone, yet, but if I have please show me where and I'll apologize and knock it off.

Until SG agitated you, you've been polite to the point where I thought you were simultaneously buddying me while calling me scummy. You're getting excessively emotional about things which is causing your posts to come off probably scummier than they would otherwise. I'm honestly trying to be fair here, I think you're fairly scummy but I don't want to be wrong because I see you falling apart and misinterpret that as losing the argument because you're caught scum. This is also part of the reason why I'm voting for Kid A and not you, and telling people to vote for Kid A and not you. I'm almost certain of his guilt, and only somewhat confident of yours.

But I also want to be fair and say that SG is more or less right. "IWoA" is information without analysis. Scum benefit from posting lots of information because it looks like scum hunting, but they don't actually have to scum hunt. You did this in spades during day 1.

Also to respond to your question about accusing me of things you've done, I refer to both your intent to hammer a player you were unsure of being almost exactly the same thing as my putting the same player at L-1, as well as you accusing me of switching up my reads during day 1 whereas you've done just that during day 2.

i think a real vig would have put more thought into a shot so their attitude regarding the shot would probably not change and they definitely wouldnt make those conflicting statements

Honestly, I think fitz just sucks at this game. His shot tracks as a player who just isn't that good and shoots who his gut tells him is scum N1, hell with what others think. No offense intended fitz, but honestly we've played several times and you just haven't impressed me at all.

[ICEninja]

Let's not forget Kid A's flat statement that the scum team is powerful.

That's WAAAAAY too much insider information. 3 more votes please.

[ICEninja]

My post got ate. Important part:

This is Reg's 4th time saying "Kid A did something scummy...but..." and I don't like it.

SG you should join the Kid A bandwagon. We have cookies with almonds in them.

[ICEninja]

Haven't you been doing the same thing with Wake?

Reg is soft town reading Kid A (or was, but seems to finally be recognizing my case). I'll quote myself on my feelings regarding Wake:

This is also part of the reason why I'm voting for Kid A and not you, and telling people to vote for Kid A and not you. I'm

almost certain of his guilt

, and only

somewhat confident

of yours.

And yes, I see the case on TvK. It's alright. He's probably tied with Wake as "scummy-ish but not worth moving my vote from Kid A".

[ICEninja]

Welcome, penguin. I'd like you to address how insanely scummy Kid A is, followed by your vote placed on him. Several of the main points about him can be found in my case.

I would also like to hear your opinion about fitz's claim of odd night vig, and the resulting n1 death of only 1 person, his strongest scum read.

I'm sure Squirrel Girl, as well as myself, would like to hear what you think about her case against Wake, the largest point of which is expressed in detail here.

Regfan's biggest scum read is TvK, and I suspect the both of us would appreciate your thoughts on his summary of TvK's scumminess in his most recent post.

That should cover the major current lynch possibilities.

[ICEninja]

Question, Wake, what if we lynch another player right now and they die and flip mason. How will that impact your read on TvK?

[ICEninja]

I just want a lynch on Kid A, and right about now before people keep giving scum more and more info about who to night kill.

Everyone has ample information about Kid A, and ample reason to vote him. He'll be the first scum we lynch, then we can easily find more based on interactions.

Come on, guys. 3 votes.

[ICEninja]

Right so I'm scum for pointing out that scum have day talk. Explain to me again why town wouldn't do this? I seem to recall I got voted last game (as town) for pointing out shit in the rules.

Also note my entire reads list gradually drifts towards scummy on every single one of the inactive slots during day 1. You could pretty much make that same case against half of them.

In that "massive fucking wall" where I say fitz is "obvscum", I pretty much end up with this conclusion:

For the record I more or less believe the claim (once again, it's too confirmable, scum knows for a fact fitz is dead if they fake claim a vig),

So that whole statement is an outright lie.

I've almost always called Street Hassle Street, I've called SG like 230754 different things, I've said TSB and Bard, I've said Quad, Wake, Milked, Eek, MME, Lol, Wagons, ffery, Reg, Banksys, and probably other things. Your last point against me is a joke.

Furthermore, fitz was present in my last game. Even if he was the only person whose name I abbreviated, I would have reason to be more comfortable with him than others

anyway

.

Also, what if fitz dies and flips town? What is your case on me then? 100% of your case hinges around fitz being scum, and you're voting me. I'm pretty sure the reason behind this is so you can still vote for fitz after I flip scum, because none of your case on him hinges on me being scum. Any town player would get the flip they need to "confirm" me as scum before bothering to vote me.

Soooo...where are those 3 votes?

[ICEninja]

(Pretty sure the fact that I still aren't convinced you're scum is pissing him off too but I'm much more sure on TvK being scum here despite how bad your case is).

Don't get me wrong, Reg, your case on TvK is fairly solid.

BUT KID A WANTS TO LYNCH ME BECAUSE I'M PARTNERS WITH AN UNFLIPPED FITZ.

Normally 3 players promising catchup would piss me off but it has indeed been a busy time of the year. We're at 8 days to deadline so I think we're OK, especially since solidly established wagons have begun (and this time ones that are actually on scum. Town is finally paying attention).

I don't normally have to push

this

hard to get votes on someone who is so obviously scum, so I'm feeling really good about the Kid A wagon.

[ICEninja]

Wake's post confused me, like a lot. Your strongest town read is TvK which is and I, whom you've called scummier and scummier all day, am tied for your second strongest town read. It seems like the people you gave 4s too you had more town things to say about them, and the people you gave 5s too you had more scum things to say about them.

The numbers feel super arbitrary to me, and the severe lack of solid town reads (outside the flat out wrong mason read on TvK) when virtually every other player has multiple solid town reads is disturbing. Your strongest scum read, SG, seems to be summed up as "She's a meanie face!", and most of your other reads have an "I have no clue" vibe to them.

Honestly, with that list you can go back and vote for ANY PLAYER IN THE GAME tomorrow, including TvK once the real mason either claims or dies.

Furthermore, you vote for Kid A the same post where you imply 3 times by my count that voting for Kid A is scummy.

This post really cements the theory that very minimal scum hunting is coming from your slot, and your fence sitting, strange votes, and strange reads benefits scum trying to leave options open. Town really tries to find scum and you just aren't doing that despite posting

so many words

.

That being said your vote is on Kid A and I'm not confident that you'd be busing a scum buddy unless you two are discussing a fake claim in day talk. Depending on how this all goes will largely impact how I read you.

[ICEninja]

Good enough for me.

I wouldn't mind hearing the catch up of penguin and fitz before the hammer, though. Particularly fitz who is a likely NK target tonight.

Once we have everyone's thoughts, someone should drop that gavel.

[ICEninja]

I'm currently catching up, and am typing up as I go. Hopefully this won't be too confusing.

I'm actually...fairly impressed with MME's play right now. He's pressuring Wake with solid reasoning and making me increasingly confident that my day 1 push towards him was misguided. Wake's defense against MME's push is also bad even for him. This particular post bugs me:

Ugh, I'm ambivalent. I don't rush to declaring 100% that someone's Town or Scum as quickly as others. He was at L-2 so I wanted to pressure him into claiming, because if he claimed a Town PR I'd then not seek his lynch anymore. And from my experience it's not that uncommon for Town to vote against Townreads here; I've seen that happen a lot.

This directly contradicts a statement you've made earlier about how you hate dropping your vote until you're super sure. Except this time you specifically dropped your vote to get a PR claim from Kid A. The fact that he didn't drop a PR claim suggests that they weren't planning some silly thing in day chat and probably only one of them is scum.

Not caring about who he hammers ;/.

It gets better than that. He thinks I'm scum because I put someone at L-1 for him to hammer.

Is there actually anyone who sees me and Kid A on the same team? Of the people that have both of us as their top scum reads?

While I will occasionally make note of connections I see between players, I really do try my best to find a scum flip before putting much effort in to finding connections. Once we have a scum flip on Kid A I'm going to go back and decide if you can be scum with him.

@TvK + ICEninja - you guys seem to be the strong holdouts of Kid A scum. With that as a belief, and with what just happened to that wagon, which votes do you find suspect? Do you think a Kid A scum wagon was dismantled onto a Wake scum wagon, or a Wake town wagon? And, if so, what do you think of the people whose votes moved?

I feel like MME's case against Wake was really strong. I'm actually somewhat considering joining the Wake wagon simply due to the strength of his case along with my earlier points regarding Wake that have never been satisfied. However, I still feel like Kid A simply cannot be town and, as I've said before, moving my vote off him with be a monumental task. Should we lynch Wake instead of Kid A and Wake flip town then I will be almost completely assured of Kid A's guilt (though the wagon falling off Kid A on to Wake resulting in a scum flip might loosen my suspicion, and remove it completely should Wake flip scum PR). If Wake flips town then people who left the Kid A wagon to lynch Wake are all going to look really bad to me.

There are QUITE a few players suspicious of Kid A right now who aren't voting for him. I don't like this one bit, especially since he was run up to L-1 then refused to claim.

1) I felt it was important, and that someone should protect him if he were the Mason. And who exactly is everyone, please? Also, it's been my experience on Mafia for the last 5+ years that you shouldn't hold back your honest thoughts.

A mason would claim at L-1. No sane scum is going to fake claim mason when everyone freaking knows there's going to be at least one mason somewhere.

It was explained on Day 1 that I was willing to hammer "Player X" in order to prevent a no-lynch, which is something to be avoided. Before I said that, I had wanted to lynch Kid A for being the weakest link, but I reasoned that the best way to prevent a no-lynch is to just hammer whoever reached L-1 first.

Yet I'm still scummy for doing virtually this exact thing. Huh.

In (259) he told Herself that her Town flip would significantly increase his suspicion of Fitz This is kind of a red flag, because she died and flipped Town, but Day 2 has him wanting to see the hammer on Kid A, with him now thinking Fitz just sucks at this game. Where's all his suspicion gone? It feels inconsistent and a bit phony, so he's leaning Scum on this bit.

Oh, right, because a

confirmable claim

doesn't impact my reads or anything.

I approve of the somewhat reforming Kid A wagon.

[ICEninja]

Was that directed towards myself or fferyllt?

[ICEninja]

why would I be a NK target tonight? Why wouldn't scum make an attempt to hit the other mason? Especially if the Odd qualifier to my claim is accurate and I don't have a shot tonight?

Leaving me alive would only contribute to suspicions towards me and my claim. i.e. saying I am most likely the NK target tonight doesn't make much sense.

Because if they kill you tonight you cannot shoot tomorrow night. The last game where I was a vig, I died and brought a scum with me on a night I could shoot. It was a wonderful trade.

Wake sure is PR hunting today. First it was trying to get a claim out of Kid A and now asking people about setup speculation. Town does not benefit from this yet. Day 3 maybe when we've got a dead scum, a doctor that can confirm someone as town, and a mason who can claim, then we can take confirmed town to lylo. Right now if we out our PRs, then there's a good chance they'll all be dead and we'll end up taking suspicious VTs to lylo and that's a good way to lose.

I'm seeing a hell of a lot of scum motivation from you. If you're town, you're doing scum's job for them.

I don't want to contribute too much to the setup discussion but occasionally games that have a vig in them have a bulletproof scum in them.

Actually, I'm getting ready to take care of a parking ticket.

I've let it slip previously, but the number of "boo hoo me" posts are frequent, and feeling increasingly like AtE. Please stop it.

[ICEninja]

Nothing lately has changed my view of the game. Kid A needs rope sooner than later, and then we can decide who can be scum with whom after we've got his scum flip.

If fitz doesn't die tonight its because of 3 possible reasons:
1) He's scum,
2) His reads are wrong and they aren't scared of him shooting them night 3,
3) They have either the remaining mason(s?) or protective role pegged.

Barring one of those 3 reasons scum can't really let him live, as lynching scum today then shooting scum tomorrow will virtually ensure town's victory if any confirmable town remains alive.

The day is stagnating. MME wants to milk (hah hah) this day for all its worth. I think we've already done that.

Rope? Rope.

[ICEninja]

While I was indeed pushing hard for Kid A's lynch yesterday, I wasn't expecting the day to end

quite

so fast. I realize I partially share blame for Reg not being able to put down his last post, but that hammer was pretty sketchy.

I wasn't particularly expecting penguin to die last night. I guess scum caught some mason tell, I was guessing either ffery or Reg would have died should fitz have lived.

Now this brings me to an interesting point: why did scum shoot the probably mason instead of the claimed vig who will shoot tomorrow?
Here is what we do know:
-Fitz almost certainly made the shot on Herself night 1. Regardless if it was mafia shooting or vig shooting, we can be almost certain fitz was the one who shot.
-If fitz is a town vig, we very likely have one of [doctor, roleblocker, jailkeeper] within town's remaining ranks. Being that last night's kill for scum was certainly successful and night 1's scum kill looks dubious (depends on fitz's alignment) I'm guessing that town doesn't have a role blocker. We're probably looking at a doctor.
-Fitz gave his reads in this post. Scum could have used those reads to decide if they wanted to keep him around another day. If a vig is town or even null reading all the scum, it is actually in their best interest to keep him alive for one more bullet. 2 townies dying tonight would be disastrous, even if we lynch scum today.
-Fitz's role SHOULD be confirmable tonight but he is, at the moment, unconfirmed.

What I gather from this information is that fitz is slightly more likely to be scum having lived the night than he was day 1 FMPoV, however if he is indeed town then his scum reads are probably also town. If fitz dies tonight and flips town (he virtually has to die tonight if he is a vig, as his kill tonight will clear him beyond doubt in everyone's mind) then I'll more or less clear TvK and Wake based on that alone. There's no way in hell scum would have let fitz lived if they felt like he would probably shoot one of them tonight.

We can't lynch fitz today, though, as if he is town he's going to pull the bullet away from more useful players (or leave confirmed town alive, I'm cool with either honestly), and if he's scum we'll know more or less certainly by tomorrow and can happily speedlynch him.

Then, whoa. Wake's claim. 2 masons, an odd night vig, and one shot cop feels like a reasonable town strength, maybe a tad on the strong side (but could easily be balanced by day talk) so that seems to check. The wording, though, claiming "scope" is weird to me. I've never heard a cop called a scope here before, only cop and investigator. This leads me to believe that he doesn't actually have a role PM that says scope. Also, I've been pretty hardcore townreading Ffery and would find it hard to believe she's scum at this point. I've been wrong before, but even so. It is indeed very concerning, because Ffery scum implies that my reads all game have been wrong. I'll need to think more about this.

Wake if you are fake claiming, retract your claim

immediately

or I will go through lengths to ensure I never play with you again. I've never even once seen a VT claiming power role help town at all, and I've seen it cause unnecessary mislynches on no fewer than 2 (and probably more than that) occasions.

I probably fucked this post up, I'm tired as hell and didn't want to wait until the morning to catch up. As a result I don't have the energy to go through and review it for errors and idiocy like I normally do. I apologize if it isn't up to my usual standards of posting.

[ICEninja]

OK so there is a fake claim going on here somewhere.

We've got 2 dead and flipped masons. Probably no 3rd mason.
We've got a hard claimed cop with a claimed guilty. He isn't retracting it as a gambit and is willing to see the lynch through, so I'm starting to believe it.
We've got a hard claimed vig with some evidence to support him being a vig and some evidence to support that he isn't.
If fitz is a vig, town probably has a protective role of some kind AND scum probably has a role blocker.

I'm almost positive there is a fake claim here somewhere. IF fitz is telling the truth, that means we have 2 masons + vig + doctor + anything else that may be true. Yikes.

From all of this, I believe that fitz is PROBABLY lying scum. At this point the setup just doesn't make sense if he is telling the truth. I also believe that Wake is PROBABLY telling the truth, despite the fact that I had a scum read on Wake and town read on ffery. It seems virtually impossible that both of them are town UNLESS ffery flips some kind of weird miller.

I thought about this for a little, and we should probably lynch ffery today. If she is indeed scum, we've eliminated a

huge

threat, cleared a scummy town player, and will almost certainly prove that fitz was lying about his vig claim. This is a

lot

to gain. If ffery flips VT, then we have a virtually 100% scum flip on Wake tomorrow (and a virtually 100% confirmable way to prove if fitz is vig or not). Furthermore, having more information about our setup will help us determine Garmr's honesty or lack thereof.

At best we have 2 scum IN THE BAG back to back, and at worst (barring scumbag mod weird miller) we've got 1 scum and forcing scum's NK away from our remaining town threats.

If fitz is telling the truth, we have a LOT less to gain from mislynching him today compared to what we gain from mislynching ffery. Furthermore, lynching Wake isn't a good idea because if he does indeed flip cop and ffery is a weird mason then town autoloses, and I'm not really comfortable risking that.

I'll refrain from voting at the moment until everyone is caught up and given their opinions, but this just makes way too much sense.

Consider this an

unofficial

vote for ffery.

[ICEninja]

Having both a cop and a vengeful makes more sense than having both a vig and a vengeful. If Wake is lying scum and fitz is telling the truth, I'm going to be inclined to lynch Garmr. If Wake is telling the truth, then fitz is almost certainly lying scum and Garmr will be taken at face value.

It is weird because gut tells me fitz has a higher chance of flipping scum than you, but like I said, running through all the possible scenarios, lynching you today is just the best option. One way or another if fitz is scum he

will

be lynched, then we can derive associative tells from that.

I feel like I just need one dead scum and I can blow this whole game open, and lynching ffery more or less guarantees that we'll have one either today or tomorrow.

Ffery, in case you are town, it would be helpful if you could do a run down of both your reads and to let us know of any associative tells you can pick up on that will help us in finding scum buddies assuming Wake is scum, and then again for fitz.

I have to say, if you're scum you and Empire played brilliantly and its unfortunate for you to have been investigated. I had you two pegged as town by post 62 when you downplayed your own towniness. That last paragraph looked to me like town wanting to avoid a night 1 bullet, and was that townslip I was talking about all of day 1.

If anybody finds fault in my logic or something i missed PLEASE PLEASE point it out to me. I've thought through it several times though and this is the right choice. Speak up if you feel otherwise, but "I think [insert player here] is more likely to be scum" isn't enough. As far as I can see it my plan is close to failproof in getting at least 1 scum lynched over the next 2 days

.

[ICEninja]

If he's scum, then hat's off. It's not that different from the guilty gambit that Angry Pidgeon recently ran to get Thor lynched in the midgame. It set up a scum win even though the next day he was autolynched.

My gut tells me this is exactly what is going on, and that there are only 2 town threats remaining to prevent them from closing this game out, and feel like Wake was going to be lynched

anyway

so they may as well do their very best to bring one of the two scary town players left (then nightkill the other who at this point is probably either Reg or myself).

Logic says scum this game aren't brilliant enough to come up with an endgame plan that clean, especially if it involves sacrificing one of their own, and that you're scum who did a

really really

good job of being town, and either made specific moves to convince Reg that you're town or that you two are scum buddies.

Actually as a matter of fact I recall being super paranoid about both Street and Reg being scum together, so if Wake is telling the truth then I feel like the entire team is probably ffery, fitz, and Regfan. If Wake is scum, I have no clue really. I'll have to read through shit to decide. Memo to self, do this before today's lynch in case I'm the night kill.

Garmr, you're retarded. Stop that shit. At least now I feel a bit better between exactly one of Wake and fitz being scum. 2 masons + weak vig + doc vs. scum team with day talk and role blocker is

slightly

town heavy but within reason, to my understanding. It is also entirely possible that we have a weak doctor as well. 2 masons + weak cop vs. 3 goons with day talk also tracks. 2 masons + weak cop + weak vig is a pretty damn strong town, and scum would need both day talk and MULTIPLE roles to counterbalance that, or some stupid shit like unaware miller (which I honestly hope isn't the case, but even if it is I'll forgive our mod because he's been absolutely fantastic in every other way).

Logic says ffery, Reg, fitz scum team. If Wake is scum I'll throw out something like...Wake, TvK, MME or something like that (though something is nagging me that it can't be that combo, I'll look through it more thoroughly later this week).

[ICEninja]

If ffery is a miller, Wake is town and setup speculation says fitz is scum. Should Wake be telling the truth

and

two people die tonight, that means fitz is town and scum EITHER shot Herself n1 (overlap of shooting) or didn't shoot anyone n1 (to frame fitz or because of severe derpage, I've seen scum derpage happen before).

I simply do not buy that town has 2 masons, a weak cop, a weak vig, and any role that would have prevented a death n1.

If ffery flips VT then I'm fairly confident fitz is a vig and needs to shoot Wake. The doctor (assuming we have one) should protect him and claim day 4, giving us two confirmed town and a dead scum, giving us a very real chance at taking this home.

[ICEninja]

I'll look more at ffery's analysis when I'm a bit less bleary-eyed and see how well it tracks.

[ICEninja]

I suppose. I'll come back fresher tomorrow. Also, I'm pretty sure you mean outside of TvK/Wake to shoot.

[ICEninja]

If ffery is a miller, shoot TvK. Simple. If ffery flips VT, shoot Wake. Simple. If ffery flips scum, the likelihood of you being an actual vig is fairly slim but if you actually are, this is the one that is harder.

I would go with shooting MME because at the moment that looks like a fairly likely scum buddy for ffery.

Lynching TvK isn't a bad decision, but it isn't the best. It has a high chance of hitting scum, but gives us very little information and FORCES us to take a 1v1 to lylo if we're wrong.

Honestly, we had too many people telling wake to back down from a gambit if he was indeed doing one. I believe him. Also, if he's lying, then every player in this game is going to explicitly hate him (except maybe scum, and even that's iffy, if I was scum I'd feel cheated out of a fair win).

I honestly do NOT believe that ffery will flip Godfather. She has responded to the vote on her pretty much as town as possible IMO.

I think I'm ready for this lynch to happen. I believe my vote makes it L-1. Nobody thus far has found any error in my logic, so if anyone has a REALLY good reason why we shouldn't lynch ffery, now is a good time to speak up.

Vote fferyllt

.

[ICEninja]

Alright yeah if ffery flips scum fitz should probably hold his bullet. Wake will die and we can thoroughly discuss who we should follow up on.

We good for this lynch? As it's been pointed out, lynching TvK simply delays the inevitable ffery vs Wake. The only person who hasn't really contributed much to the discussion today would be MME, who is V/LA and probably wouldn't be all that much of a help right now anyway.

I'm increasingly feeling it is likely that Wake is indeed telling the truth and that ffery will flip scum.

[ICEninja]

See, SG, I don't know what that shit means when you just post a creepy face like that.

[ICEninja]

And just retracted it as "probably not allowed in a normal". Are you expecting SG to flip funky miller??

[ICEninja]

If ffery flips town, Wake is going to die. If he claims to have read you as Godfather I'm going to laugh at him as I watch him die, and if he flips cop, I'm going to berate him in a way that will stretch the limits of what you're allowed to say via site rules, and 100% blame the loss of the game on him. I would encourage others to do the same.

MME's theory holds some water, though. If we come down to a day where the game should be over but isn't, then Wake and ffery could realistically be scum buddies.

I think Reg is being arrogant out of his ass this game. To literally believe you have the capability of reading someone 100%, who also knows you (and therefore how to potentially fool you), and who hasn't been a particularly big part of the hydra this game, is foolish beyond belief. Also believing that this game is more likely to have only 2 scum in it SIMPLY BASED ON THE FACT that you can't possibly believe any of your town reads are wrong is foolish.

Right now I'm frustrated at myself because logic is pointing to someone whom I thought was town is going to end up flipping scum, and someone who seemed like they had zero chance to flip town (Kid A) flipped fucking town. However, I'm learning, because like

every single other player on this site

my game still can be improved.

Get over yourself. Seriously.

[ICEninja]

Garmr, you had some rough spots during day 1 but you're playing well enough by my book.

And you'll be playing even better once you hammer scum *cough cough*. There is some solid consensus that today needs to end.

[ICEninja]

Wake you are the biggest piece of shit. I really REALLY want to just quick lynch you right now, but I need to think about things. If you continue barking like a fucking dog, though, I will vote you and refuse to take my vote off come hell or high water. You do not deserve to win this game, and I will do

nothing

to cooperate with you unless I arrive at my own conclusions that happen to mirror yours.

Regardless of the outcome of this game we will NOT play together again. Seriously, you need to get the fuck off this site.

[ICEninja]

Its only personal if you're town. If you end up being scum then your fake claim is probably playing towards your win condition. If you're town then you're a piece of shit playing against your win con and ruining the game for us.

I honestly still think there's a decent chance you're scum, with this whole fitz insta vote, but I'm skeptical since you really just might be this bad at the game. Scum role blocker leaving a claimed vig alive is a real possibility that I'm not willing to just instantly discount. Also, 2 masons plus weak doc seems like a fairly light town.

Finally, I think your doctor claim is also a lie. Who the hell doesn't protect night 1? Of course you have to claim you didn't protect anyone night one because a kill didn't go through.

Also, that lynch was 100% your fault. One. Hundred. Percent. If you're scum that makes sense. If you're an idiot town that makes sense. If you're even a little bit competent like you seem to claim then you aren't town.

[ICEninja]

I just played a game with little shits fake claiming as town and it almost made us lose a stupidly easy game. I'm fucking sick and tired of it.

[ICEninja]

I'm reading everything and catching up as fast as I can. Based on page 69 it looks like Reg is the real doctor and Wake really is scum (THANK GOD at least now you're not an asshat, sorry about what I said earlier).

[ICEninja]

Alright so Wake has literally accused every single living player of being one of the final 3 scum, has 2 votes on him, but is still alive. So either Reg and Garmr are BOTH scum or Wake is scum. Being that Wake and Garmr and literally my strongest 2 town reads at the moment, I find that incredibly hard to believe.

Everything tracks with Wake's play being scum play to get ffery lynched and SG night killed (who were presumably the last 2 threats), and the only reason I'm not voting yet is that nagging feeling in the back of my head. Ffery believed with such passion that you're idiot town and not scum, and I feel like I need to REALLY think this through before I lynch.

If Wake is scum then both fitz and Reg are insta-clear. We're at an interesting situation where scum is

forced

to night kill Reg as he can protect fitz. This then gives fitz a shot tomorrow night, meaning town has a guaranteed win here. PoE means Wake + TvK + one of either Garmr or MME. We lynch Wake today, TvK tomorrow, and either Garmr or MME on the final day with fitz shooting the other for a set win.

I suppose from other's perspectives I could potentially be the final scum, but even so with 3 of us being in the final pool where 1 is lynched and 1 is vigged we're almost certain of a victory.

[ICEninja]

Shit you're right I didn't think of that.

[ICEninja]

Yeah, enough of this.

Vote Wake

.

[ICEninja]

For the record, my personal attacks on Wake weren't particularly faked. I

despite

anyone who does this. I feel partially cheated out of my win because this was too easy. I really don't ever want to play with you again. Even if it worked, I would still rip in to someone's ass post game for risking everything based on some retarded gut feeling.

If you really want to gambit and get someone lynched, make the gambit, take it back, and if you still think they are scum make a case explaining why their reaction is scum and/or other reasons.

This is almost word for word what I was planning to say to Wake.

This.
I had issues with both of the other two but never so much as felt a scummy vibe from ICE - he was my boy, and he betrayed my sweet offerings of nuts with brutal betrayal!

Sorry <3

Hi Tierce. Loved your thoughts on this game, and agree with them.

I'll post my thoughts on everyone in a sec.

[ICEninja]

First and foremost I would like to thank our esteemed mod. This game ran super smoothly, replacements were prompt, the setup was enjoyable, the space pictures on the VCs (and the frequency of VCs) were awesome. 10/10 would play in your games again.

Secondly, I would like to extend a particular high 5 to my scum buddies. Fitz didn't play the strongest game ever but lurked what I felt was just the

perfect

amount. Not enough to be noticed for it, but enough to drop under the radar for people to forget about you and focus on lynchbait. Reg was number 1 here. I got Kid A lynched and gathered some town reads but this guy orchestrated everything. You were fantastic. Thank you for replacing in!

I feel like I should address Wake next. I've come back with a cooler head (after being legitimately upset at your actions, I'm serious that wasn't faked, just don't do things like that ever) I have a few suggestions for you. Look at how I got Kid A lynched. That's pretty much exactly what you need to do as town. I worked with people, I prodded people's reasoning for disagreeing with me, I kept in everyone's mind that this guy needed rope, and

most importantly of all

I presented clear and powerful and legitimate reasons why he is more likely to be scum than town. Just because I was scum pushing a mislynch didn't mean my push on him wasn't solid. If I was town I would have came to the exact same conclusion. Just try to take a look at my day 2 play, at how I worked with people who thought I was town, and I pushed people who I thought were town, to work together. I actually attempted this quite a lot during day 1, unsuccessfully. Which frustrated me, so I get where you're coming for, but it happens. You don't always get your way in mafia.

Ffery (and to a lesser extent, Emp) was very strong this game. You guys misread myself and Reg, but you were entirely unlynchable, and you were frustratingly VT. It was risky to use a night kill on you so when Wake came and shut you down that was basically a godsend for us. We would have had to leave SG alive, which was NOT what we wanted. I have to say I really did feel legitimately bad for you. I haven't read the dead QT yet but I asked mod to send you hugs from us.

Speaking of Nutsy McSexytail, you are fun to play with and had a good game. Some reads were off, but not all of them. I laughed more than once reading your posts. Better luck next time!

Garmr you definitely played strong town, but your reads (no offense) were awful. I was super happy to keep you around as long as possible because I was pretty sure you'd win for us in lylo. You definitely gave off megatown vibes though and you were also going to be REALLY hard to lynch.

Herself played quite well. It was unfortunate for you that you were the N1 kill, but that was largely because you were right. I think you had all 3 scums pegged at one point or another during day 1. The fact that we flipped a mason night 1 was largely instrumental in our easy victory. Out of everyone I'd say you probably had the #1 strongest town play, and were unfortunately punished for it.

Kid A, I actually forgot my role PM when I was putting my case together on you because I believed it so thoroughly. No offense man but this wasn't your best game. I'd suggest going through and reading my push against you because it is

exactly

what I would have done as town. I even started looking through your play to see if I could figure out who your scum buddies were before I mega facepalmed.

LolWagons/Penguin was also probably just as strong as Herself this game. Boy that mason team...you guys could have won the game for town if you didn't pull 2 bullets so early. Reg, being brilliant as he is, was quite confident you were the second mason. I just wanted you dead because penguin's reads were fucking spot on. *Shiver* you scared me. Well played.

MME you were the most difficult push I had. I didn't believe in my case against you at all and it was BY FAR the most forced. Out of all of the non power players, I'd give you the honorable mention of being town's best played. You certainly were the strongest of the endgamed players, and I want to commend you for that. Your day 2 play was so ridiculously town it hurt to notice that I had my vote on you.

In regards to TSB, I honestly don't remember a lot about you. Your reads were pretty off so I wanted to keep you around, but the wagon on you wasn't to be turned. Sorry you got lynched so quick after joining the game though, that's always a bummer. Better luck next time!

TvK honestly I don't think your play was that bad. You were the second most fabricated scum read I had. If you were a stronger presence in game I think town would have actually had a much better chance to take this game home. Don't feel bummed about this game, I promise it wasn't on you.

And to those of you who left some commentary on this game, I've agreed with pretty much everything you guys have said. It's always nice to have some 3rd party perspective on things!

[ICEninja]

Yeah I legitimately used to suck nuts as scum (my first 2 scum games I was the day 1 lynch) but I sort of "got it" and now seem pretty good (my other 2 scum games were flawless scum wins that included wagons driven by pretty much me).

I still think I'm better at town than scum and this game was a fluke.

[ICEninja]

Hell! Just look at the opinions of me. Pre-2010 joindate, do you see many (if any) players treating me like you see, say, a 2013 player treat me? No. (Hell, even a large number of 2011 players treat me not-so-kindly, but they have reasons, too, since my game in 2011 was hit-or-miss.)

This would be me. I've played games with this guy that made my blood boil and swear I'd never play with him again, but it was a while ago so I'd probably be willing to now.

Also, Wake, I know this isn't what you want to hear but I feel like I should point it out because its the truth. You asked what you did right this game? Honestly the answer is pretty much nothing. You lynched no scum, and by the time you actually found any scum you had already dug your own grave. You asked lots of decent questions that could have given town info had they been analyzed and followed up on, but most of your questions, once answered, were rarely discussed later. Furthermore, you asked a plethora of questions that really JUST WERE answered, and that gave not only myself as scum something to attack but other players such as SG and MME reason to find your questions less credible.

Now I'm not saying you did everything wrong this game. However coming in post game to ask what you did correctly, what you did

in this game

to emulate to help you in future town games, well, there isn't much in terms of good play. I'd say your best play was during lylo, you gave me a bit of pause when you had literally called out all scum players at some point until I realized you had also called all 3 town players scum as well. I think had you simply locked down the fact that FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW Reg and fitz were both more or less guaranteed scum, you would have had a MUCH better time of surviving the game to lynch Reg. Had you lynched Reg you could have literally won the game for town, and we actually hesitated doing the claim because of how powerful your swing was, and due to the possibility that once town realized you were town you could crucify the entire team.

But the point is it was all for nothing because of two reasons, 1) you had dug your own grave and accepted only partial blame for it and 2) you were swinging the scum flail around the entire room, hitting everyone, and giving the actual town nothing worth following. Being that every single one of them were called scum by you at some point during that whole shitstorm none of them were willing to follow you.

Plus you were outplayed. Regfan is really good. There's no shame in losing a 1v1 to a really good player, I swear.

[ICEninja]

Kid A I would suggest for future games if your scum read on someone has a case whoever every single point is an associative tell with another player, you should get that flip. If you got fitz lynched you could have pushed me easily but you did it in the wrong order and that gave me tons of firepower against you.

[ICEninja]

For the record I'd say I had an overall positive experience in this game, despite the slow start to day 1, and gambit causing an overly easy win. I enjoy playing as town much more than scum but having daytalk with competent partners definitely made this work a lot better for me.

The only thing I wish was that my timezone lined up better with Reg's. I would always wake up to great stuff in the QT but rarely be able to discuss things anything remotely close to real time.

Also, I got to play with a few great players whom I haven't had the opportunity to yet. I wish I had a little more time to play with Emp, but ffery was quite enjoyable to play against as well.

I also really appreciate how Wake has opened up to advice more, now I feel like I was a bit over the top with the fury. A lot of that frustration boiled over from 2 games ago where town should have steamrolled scum but we barely won because fake claims made by town ruined things. I win games based off setup speculation (my logic here was EXACTLY how I would have approached this situation as town, I even surprised myself how much I believed that post and my one following) especially when there is at least 1 cleared town player and 1 flipped scum player. As a result, fake claims made by town disrupt my ability to play at my best, and literally 100% of fake claims made by town that I've seen have hindered my ability to find scum. I now become furious with them, and I actually made this point in my opening (or shortly after my opening) post in my most recent town game.

[ICEninja]

For the record, Wake, I was goosing you a little about your questions and useless content. You made the mistake of telling scum about how to get under your skin, so I brought it up a lot more than I would have had you not said anything. I figured you'd be less effective to town if you were playing more emotionally and less logically.

Part of a good scum game is getting people frustrated and off balance, I think. It has sure as hell worked on me more than once.