Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[Desperado]

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

[Desperado]

Also I got my first choice and am very pleased with the results despite the delay.

[Desperado]

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

Is this paranoia?

~ Zoya

It was actually RVS. What do I have to be paranoid of?

[Desperado]

I see paranoia as usually a town trait.

That's cool.

So why would/should I be paranoid of you?

[Desperado]

Alternatively, you all are blank slates so I have no reason to be paranoid of anyone right now.

[Desperado]

???

You can take it however you want, that's the beauty of this game

[Desperado]

cool good talk

[Desperado]

Sorry, busy weekend.

The Scorpion and Grimgroove thing looks like town on town to me at the moment.

On a semi OT (but indie game related, so yeah) note: I went and downloaded Surgeon Simulator 2013 today, hoping for a few hours of hilarious fun. I complete the operation on my first go with an A++. *siiiiiigh*

hahahahahaha wtf do you mean "at the moment?"

Vote: Hermy

[Desperado]

- Apologies for lack of content
- Baselessly calls a slapfight TvT
- More time on off topic shit than either of those things

[Desperado]

Grim, why are you encouraging someone to continue playing badly as town? Even if you're right and Hermy is town setting herself up as an easy mislynch, that is just a distraction--

at best

.

[Desperado]

That's fine, but I'm not going to back off just because someone wilts under pressure. There are several objectively scummy things about Hermy's post, and I intend to dance with her.

[Desperado]

What do you think about TV's vote on Hermy?

[Desperado]

Why are you so distressed by pressure on Hermy?

[Desperado]

Yes, distressed. Both of your initial scumreads(?) are directly related to their vote on Hermy.

And you're still sidestepping the issue. Does your argument really end at "Hermy is lynchbait?" If so, is it because you agree that their post was scummy as balls?

[Desperado]

And it doesn't really track that you are calling me a strong player but also accusing me of going after low-hanging fruit, which is about as noob-scum as it gets.

[Desperado]

My argument begins with "why is Desperado not doing anything to advance the game out of RVS? Not even my half-assed posts at him elicited a snap." Hermy is an afterthought, though one I find somewhat concerning.

So when it became clear that your prodding me wasn't doing anything to achieve your stated goal (get out of RVS), why didn't you try something else? It looks a lot to me like you all passed the buck on to Penguin and I (calling her out for inactivity during a holiday on page two?) and then calling us scummy for not doing the work for you.

[Desperado]

Not really. Trine thinks you two get townpoints for getting us out of RVS--Hermy chimed in at the end of an argument and just called you both town ("at the moment").

[Desperado]

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

But Trine really IS doing this also, to an even greater degree than Grim. If Hermy is scum then Grim is probably more likely to be his partner--if Hermy is town, Trine is more likely to be scum looking for towncred.

[Desperado]

Trine's wording shows a genuine thought process whereas Hermy's is just designed to leave his options open. Trine is leaving a trail while Hermy is not.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Sanhora

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!

[Desperado]

No, I don't agree either. But I don't see any harm in trying it their way first.

[Desperado]

This is your 2nd post on the same page where you post something right after penguin that supports penguin's post.

....so? If you were around at that time wouldn't you have been supporting her also? You agree with both of the points that you referenced here.

[Desperado]

....so? If you were around at that time wouldn't you have been supporting her also? You agree with both of the points that you referenced here.

The perfect lockstep is suspicious as.

OK, but you're in lockstep with both of us so....???

[Desperado]

"Both of us" being penguin and I, before I decided to leave Hermy alone.

[Desperado]

Yeah, Bo was posting in the postgame of another game.

[Desperado]

We noticed last night that Desp's initial two votes had followed TV's.

Do you have a theory why Scum-Desperado would shadow TV?

How did you notice something that isn't true? I only "followed" Penguin on to Hermy, and that's only in the sense that we both reacted the same way to Hermy's post--and again, no one has even attempted to argue against it being scummy.

[Desperado]

Yeah, Bo was posting in the postgame of another game.

Nevermind, this isn't accurate. I had Sanhora mixed up with someone else.

Unvote
Vote: Bro

Bro says I'm scum for following Penguin and being in perfect lockstep with her while simultaneously pushing the same agenda we were pushing. IDGI, and normally I do get it when Bro is town.

[Desperado]

Re Desp: I'm not parroting penguin's opinions in marginally different wording immediately after she does. That's what I mean by "lockstep"

But you would have been if you were around when I was, right? Because your thoughts DO parrot ours.

And you and I both know I can't define it right now.

[Desperado]

2) Point stands: unless you've read a lot of my games, you don't have much range with my gameplay to define how I "normally" behave and how frequently our thoughts aline.

In your opinion. Glad to know you're not telling me I'm wrong, just that I don't have enough evidence to support my conclusion.

[Desperado]

How am I twisting his words? He's literally saying "Nuh uh, you haven't played enough games with me to say for sure!" which is definitely not "no, you're wrong about that thing you said."

Which games did you skim and how am I different here?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: TierShift

[Desperado]

Desperado, you moved to TierShift. What's your current thinking about Hermy?

Still scum, still leaving her alone today.

[Desperado]

This is exactly what he is doing, though. First Hermy, now me. Going for the easy lynch without attacking anyone else really...not liking it.

Why are you an easy lynch?

[Desperado]

I did see your previous post, but you claimed to be an easy lynch before your woe-is-me-I'm-a-newb shtick. Nothing in your approach to the game before you started getting heat suggested you weren't confident in your ability to play. Looks like someone playing on what's already been discussed re: Hermy to get people off their back.

[Desperado]

Because you did it first when you called yourself lynchbait (like Hermy)?

[Desperado]

This is exactly what he is doing, though. First Hermy, now me. Going for the easy lynch without attacking anyone else really...not liking it.

Right here.

[Desperado]

Well, your argument is wrong. Unless Bro is lynchbait as well?

[Desperado]

Why are you concerned with who I'm attacking and not what I'm attacking for? You haven't addressed any of the reasons I've given for pushing Hermy or yourself, you've just said that it's bad that I'm going after easy lynches.

[Desperado]

The only push that you did address was my Bro push, which you later called OMGUS and a deflection after defending me and sheeping me on him in the first place.

What's really weird is you are still calling him your #1 suspect, which means you think we are scum together and our little spat was theater, right? Which doesn't jibe with you defending me earlier.

[Desperado]

I've been going after players who did scummy things. Your attempt to retroactively call yourself an easy lynch and then do a hard reset because you know you fucked up is one of them.

[Desperado]

If there is nothing wrong with lynching weaker players then why is this even an issue? I repeated yet again that I am going after people who do scummy things. Your narrative doesn't include Bro so you just call that push "weak" itself when it wasn't.

There is no "lack of desire to find scum amongst the other players" because that isn't how scumhunting works. The other players that aren't Hermy/Bro/Yourself have looked town so far. Why are you so insistent that I go look over there when you haven't identified any of them as scum yourself?

[Desperado]

But you've read the game?

[Desperado]

Why shouldn't we lynch Who? Anyone?

....



..


Nope, I got nothing.

Who?

[Desperado]

Given that it was pretty clear which head was going after him, I'm not sure why Who bothered to chase down the rabbithole of matching you up to a head. I don't see town motivation for the sidetrack; looked more like him seeing which heads he had to appeal to.

I disagree. Who is at a disadvantage to Trine in that he doesn't know who he's talking to but they do, so I can easily see town-Who asking that question in hopes of creating a level playing field.

[Desperado]

I get that it's an awkward position to be in, to be talking to someone who knows you when you don't know their identity, but the timing of it feels less curious and more 'looking for ways to derail the case.'

huh?

How would knowing the identity of the person dancing with him help him derail the case?

[Desperado]

Someone asked for a reason why Who shouldn't be lynched. I was making it clear that I had no such reasons (and, thus, wouldn't object to lynching him).

What in any of that is sheeping?

[Desperado]

I confirm your notation.

[Desperado]

For a variety of reasons, some of which are game related.

[Desperado]

@ Scorp: I'll support Tier and Hermy lynches today

@ TV: I think it's pretty outrageous to suggest I've been disconnected from this game. What did you mean by that?

[Desperado]

@ TV: Trine said I wasn't "Putting as much into this game as I could" which is accurate, but is not the same as being disengaged. I've been in the middle of pretty much every major event in the game, which is why your comment rubbed me the wrong way.

[Desperado]

Yeah, we're lynching Tier.

[Desperado]

It makes me the only person here who's fucking competent.

VOTE: Tiershift I guarantee that both scum were on that wagon, given that I was the only one to point out that THE OPTIMAL PLAY WAS A DAY 2 POLICY LYNCH AND EVERYONE FUCKING IGNORED THAT.

hey fuck you buddy

Vote: TierShift

[Desperado]

The only logical explanation I can draw from this is that you believed his claim, but that you are scum willing to erase this role from the town's power role pool, before it could cause a lot of damage by exposing a lot of confirmed towns.

you mean like the opposite of what you were arguing to lynch who just now?

when you said there was no fucking way a role that powerful that could create that many conftown could even exist (so let's just kill it now!!!!)

Eek is scum too

[Desperado]

Desp, you are saying that me and Eek are scum, do you think we could be scum together? Would you really think I'd bus my partner when the obvious lynch candidate is me, not him?

WIFOM

You and Eek are independently scummy

Tier's role is 100% made up

[Desperado]

oh hey

town eek

what up dude

[Desperado]

What if Tier and Scorp are both scum and this is Scorp's way of setting up tomorrow's mislynch?

[Desperado]

Des why are you lurking?

Because it's Eek and Tier (and Trine if Who's role means we started 6-3) and my work here is done.

[Desperado]

This is lazy, generic and not what I'd expect of you. Heck, you just quoted Bro's list right back at him.

Actually, Bro quoted my list back at me.

[Desperado]

Desperado's 479 says exactly that. The only problem with Desperado? He himself put TierShift at L-1 just before it. Why the hell would you put someone who's being attacked by someone you genuinely have a good argument against at L-1? The term for this is: setting up lynches.

No, the term is "I think they are both scum."

Seriously???

[Desperado]

Look at how quickly Eek and Tier backed off each other when I said I saw Eek-town, even briefly.

They're both scum.

[Desperado]

I just can't get around that there has to be scum involved with voting who after the claim. I just made a reference list for town. In their book, I could very well be scum.

Something is off with your post. I hope I'll be around to find out what and address it later.

L-1 guys...you wanna end it already?

I agree with desp,

that

is what's off with eek's posting.

Lynch Eek next please

UNVOTE:
VOTE: eek

I don't see the need for an L-1 first page of the new day, but I don't mind that much as long as you are not letting

anyone

away with quickhammering.

I really really don't understand why you'd all wanna get the day over with so quickly.
Desp, you are saying that me and Eek are scum, do you think we could be scum together? Would you really think I'd bus my partner when the obvious lynch candidate is me, not him?
A fast hammer would really take everyone's chances away to interact with Eek today.

P-edit:
What can I say? If I were scum, I'd definitely have hammered you too, there's no denying that. I'm also pretty sure I would have lurked a tad more before doing anything.

Eek teach me the ability to get on someone's town side who has a scumread on you....everything is just right in that post. The xcorp vote is fucking valid and your explanation of everything is as well.

You seemed to be implying that my selection of you me and Trine was wrong, but I guess you weren't. I still find it hard to believe that there wasn't any scum involved in the revoting phase, but I'm gonna drop that point because you and Trine are town as fuck and I'm not gonna argue in favor of me being scum.
UNVOTE: eek btw
I don't like desp's posting but his first post after who's claim makes it hardly possible that he is scum. I don't like that he didn't try to get involved with you before when he had a scumread on you but well I can't get around seeing him as town.
As who is confirmed now and desp, trine and eek are town for me and TV is mostly null I'm gonna look further into GG, XScorp and BRO.

GG could be scum because of his convenience disappearance lately, xscorp for eek's reasons and reasons in 412
BRo for the balance issues his role brings.

Tier.

Why didn't you know who you were voting?

Vote Count 1.17

Who (4) - Trine, Turkish Van, Grimgroove, XScorpion

TierShift (2) - Desperado, BROseidon
My Milked Eek (2) - Who, TierShift

Not Voting (1) - My Milked Eek

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline is on December 14th, 12 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-14 12:00:00)

UNVOTE: Who

That is one SICK role. I suppose you can also use it when NK'd?
I just can't believe that we're basically playing the game with 2 conftowns...
I'd be totally fine with getting lynched now.

If you refuse to rewind time tomorrow after lynching a townie+a townie getting nightkilled you should be lynched whatever happens.

I realize that if I don't get cleared by rewinding time I will probably be lynched the next day. Still, I'm gonna push for an Eek lynch, lynching possible scum is still better than lynching town.
VOTE: Eek

The previous player in your spot didn't do anything

not

scummy and you have just been lurking. Wanna share your thoughts about the game?

Does this make bro scum, or am I missing something?

Balance-wise, most likely. But I've been reading him as town so far, so I can't get my head around this flip.

I don't like Tier's last three-four posts. On what basis do you get to scum in [Eek | Trine | Tier]? Why you'd include yourself is beyond me. Are you not sure about your alignment?

In other words: I want to know why Trine or myself are scum according to you. I'm not catching any grounds for that coming from you.

@Eek: in my mind, voting for a player and wanting to hammer said player feel similar.

Yeah, sure. Except that that wasn't my question. Why are you unvoting someone who you aren't voting? And the best part of your voting pattern yesterday (or is it today? The question is not where are we, it's when are we), the best part is you hammered Who. So to recap:

Intent to hammer -> claim -> unvote who -> hammer

I can understand it up until "unvoting who", but then you drop the hammer. What is it, are you believing the claim or aren't you?

The only logical explanation I can draw from this is that you believed his claim, but that you are scum willing to erase this role from the town's power role pool, before it could cause a lot of damage by exposing a lot of confirmed towns.

Vote: Tiershift

The difference is that I didn't believe his claim at all, Tier did at one point. He unvoted who (he wasn't voting him, but w/e), so I'm pretty sure he believed the claim. As soon as Trine and I make clear that the role is bullshit (and I put him back at L-1), Tier's back to wanting to hammer Who. He saw there was a platform for a Who lynch and he went back.

I believe the claim. Flavor fits and his page 20 posting feels really honest and I got a town vibe from that.

Unvote

Just a few thoughts about and questions to Tier:
His thoughts on how to play Who's role are the same as mine. As said, I would have played that role a lot more reckless than Who has.

Eek is implying that me saying that scum is within the revoting-who-stage (me, eek and trine) is ungrounded. Other than the fact that it is super-reasonable to assume there is at least one scum behind this, he is not addressing it in the way a townie would. A townie would say: 'yes, the person out of those three to be scum is yourself', or something along those lines. Instead, he is trying to invalidate my assumption because he knows that I will flip town and he would be the subsequent lynch target if we were to follow the assumption.

You're either misreading that post or you're twisting it horribly. Let me quote the post you're talking about:

"

In other words: I want to know why Trine or myself are scum according to you [tier]. I'm not catching any grounds for that coming from you.

"


Tell me; why would posting "you're the scum out of those three" be any better than asking you why either Trine or myself would be scum according to you?
I'm not in any way invalidating the selection of three players you've made, it's a valid selection you can make from looking at the wagon. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on both of us. I don't remember you posting anything like that.

I've rephrased it as simply as I could and if you still don't get it, then I'm going to assume you're twisting my words intentionally. But right now, given your claim, I feel you're town trying to find any "evidence", no matter how flimsy or how much twisting words it takes, of me being scum.

Could you give me your read on desperado as well? You don't need to go into detail, a simple town-null-scum with a one liner would suffice. Just want to know where you stand on him.

---

...you're kidding me right? Who claims and gets lynched before I even get to come back to respond? Obviously someone wanted a lynch before I could unvote, and I wonder who
Trine, what the hell?
I see GG is in the same boat as me, so he's probably town too.
BRO I don't know why you are so upset, obviously the people who didn't listen to you are scum so what's the problem?

Intent to hammer Tier.

We have lots of time before the day is over but Tier is scum so I don't think it matters.

1) Tell me how you got to GG being town based on his absence during the hammer. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that.
2) Why did you only address Trine? Where is my name?
3) I'll requote because it's so goddamn important for the next few posts:

"

We have lots of time before the day is over but Tier is scum so I don't think it matters

"

That being quoted, let's move on to:

Guys we should indeed be not so quick to end this. Xscorp has stated intent to hammer so if anyone on my wagon isn't 100% sure of me being scum please unvote.

Scorp, is there anything you want to know apart from the claim before the hammer?

I don't understand your role whatsoever or your logic behind why you didn't listen to BRO.
Role: what kind of a 'random QT message' do you get?
Listening: Why didn't you?
VOTE: Tiershift L-1, this is not a hammer because Who unvoted.

Huh?

But, then why did you say...

As for why I didn't listen: if I hadn't hammered and the wagon would have died down, I'm certain I would get lynched.

I believe you. That's why I'm voting you

P-edit: No one is quickhammering unless they want to die a quick death tomorrow.

No, you wouldn't have lurked a bit more, because if you did then GG and I would have chances to unvote and prevent this stupidity.

I bolded for emphasis.

Why did you put him at L-1 if you don't want him to be lynched? Don't give me that quickhammer crap. Putting someone at L-1 is setting up a lynch. You don't put down the L-1 vote unless you want that person to be lynched. This post is nothing more than making empty threats and trying to posture. I'd even go as far as saying that if Tier flips town, XS is scum. I don't like the buddying to GG either. If XScorpion flips scum, GG is town.

This is XScorpion blatantly distancing himself from a town mislynch while pushing it.

It makes no sense to want to lynch someone over a possible quickhammer if you put down the L-1.

Also, you mentioned something really peculiar in that quote I just had to requote. In fact let me requote it again. It's just that important:

"

We have lots of time before the day is over but Tier is scum so I don't think it matters

"

Why would you be against a quickhammer of scum? Why would "anyone die" for lynching a scum? If you're going to say "because not everyone has replied to this claim etc." then you should stop right there. Let me recap the previous paragraphs: Without an L-1 vote there would be no quickhammer. Stop posturing.

Vote: XScorpion

TierShift, why would Who necessarily want to have played in a way that draws the NK? What if he did that and we'd lynched scum? Then his getting NK's resurrects scum as well. Being policy lynched on a non-D1 day is nominally better, but on the whole of it, playing as town as possible and waiting for an opportune day to rewind is ideal.

--PA

Of all the things, this is what you choose to reply to?

This is the most obvious mutual bus + distance I have ever seen, in both directions.

Eek lynches Who because he was sure he'd caught scum and blahblahblah and then unvotes based on Tier's claim? Bullshit.

Tier comes out of the Who lynch firing on all cylinders against Eek and then drops it because Eek convinced

me

that he's town??? BULLSHIT.

If there are three scum we can deal with it when we get there, but these two are caught and that's the end of it.

[Desperado]

Oh hey desp.

Could you explain how I can read the future when I backed off of Tier? I unvoted and backed off in 508. So this quote:

"

Look at how quickly Eek and Tier backed off each other when I said I saw Eek-town, even briefly.

"

Does not apply if you called me Eektown in 509. Oops! Try to misrep some other context please.

You're right, my mistake. You're just scum together for pushing the Who wagon through because you were SO SURE! but then backing off Tier based on a weak as fuck claim, then.

Wanna address that?

I unvoted based on 508. Eek was the first to notice that perhaps I wasn't scum, while he could have easily pushed through a mislynch on me. That is my main argument for see Eek as town and I know it isn't worth anything to you.

Yes I know that. But you start that post by saying...

Eek teach me the ability to get on someone's town side who has a scumread on you....everything is just right in that post. The xcorp vote is fucking valid and your explanation of everything is as well.

Which reads to me like you saw me reading Eek as town based on that post and saw an opening to do so yourself.

[Desperado]

Yes I'm reading the thread.

No those aren't good reasons for backing off him given your justification for pushing Who.

[Desperado]

They are not valid given the way you pushed Who through.

Are you going to call me scum or just keep slinging mud?

What about Who's play post-claim made him scum whereas Tier is town for his behavior?

PS when Who was going down you said Who/Bro was T/S guaranteed. You now have Bro as town. What happened to that though process?

[Desperado]

Cuz you lynched Who because his role didn't make sense AND because it didn't fit with Bro's role. Their incompatibility was central to your case on why Who was lying.

But now that he's town, Bro is just town because he's town, balance be damned? Even though BALANCE! was the only reason Who got lynched to begin with?

Puh-leeze.

[Desperado]

Is that all you have? A baseless accusation that I'm not reading? It makes you look stupid.

If you were certain you could verify Bro's claim, then why did we need to lynch Who?

[Desperado]

And what about Who's post-claim play made him look so scummy that you didn't even feel the need to address his posts, whereas Tier's claim + post claim play make him town?

[Desperado]

Trine/Amadeus has a point about scum not killing Who if it resulted in back-to-back dead townies. Which means that getting a conf-town Who today is likely a better deal than what we'd get down the line, even if he would find it boring to play.

The role also implies no way for more than one death per night, as that could bring back three players and would totally strain . And with BRO's more believable weak visitor claim, it's less feasible.

I want to get Mala's thoughts before proceeding.

Also, TierShift being fine with being lynched after Who's claim looks bad too. Again, most likely not both scum, but scum-TS could be trying to minimize the damage of his faction killing Who if he believes the claim. Less feasible given the likely size of a scum faction in a Micro, but Who's role, if town, could imply a > 2p Mafia group as well.

--PA

If scum don't kill we could get a conftown someone else and probtown me, or I could save my role for when they do kill, also we get a conftown from BRO. Also, the wording of my role PM implies the possibility for more than one death per night.

About TS, I would say that his willingness to be lynched looks Towny but a bit too quick to trust (From his perspective I might be scum postponing my lynch by a day) and could be a traitor. The possibility of one traitor+2scum is present given my role, and the traitor, if they exist, would want to sacrfice themselves to prevent two conftowns.

Has anyone read any of Alduskkel's previous games? Here are the roles from a marathon I replaced into (I replaced Majiffy):
Alduskkel's Arboreal UPick - Game Over!

Spoiler: Roles

1. Majiffy - Root - Mafia Traitor & Roleblocker
2. zabriel - Ironwood - BP
3. GuyInFreezer - Saigyou Ayakasi - 1-Shot PGO
4. Kid A - Bonsai - Tree Cop
5. Lucky2u - Dryad - Tree Protector
6. Severe Dirt Trip - Ash - Informed Tree
7. killerjester - Tree of Heaven - Ascetic Tree
8. Cephrir - Kalpavriksha - Wish Giver
9. Marquis - Demeter, Goddess of the Harvest - Vote Giver
10. Nero - Sad Molesting Tree - Vanilla Townie

Majiffy, you are a root. You're also a Mafia Traitor/Roleblocker! Cephrir and killerjester are in the Mafia, but they don't know that you're on their side.
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability:
If you are ever killed (treestumped), you will gain the ability to roleblock another player each night.

Zabriel, you are Ironwood.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
You can't be killed at Night.

GuyInFreezer, you are Saigyou Ayakasi, a deadly tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Once in the game, at Night, you can choose to blossom and kill anyone who targets you.

Kid A, you are a Bonsai.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability: Each Night, you can target someone and learn if they are a tree or part of a tree. This isn't necessarily indicative of alignment.

Lucky2u, you are a Dryad.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Each Night, you can target someone, and if they are a fully grown tree then you will protect them.

killerjester, you are a Tree of Heaven and a member of the Arboreal Mafia with Cephrir. Talk to him here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/sseWPbHWDtSuv
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability: You're a stinky tree, so people don't like to target you. You're immune to all non-killing actions.

Cephrir, you are Kalpavriksha. You are also a member of the Mafia with killerjester. Talk to him here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/sseWPbHWDtSuv
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability:
Each Night, you can offer a player a 1-shot daykill in exchange for their vote. They have the option to accept or not accept. You keep the vote permanently.

Marquis, you are Demeter.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Each Night you can grant a player an extra vote the next day. They keep the vote permanently. You can't target yourself.

Severe Dirt Trip, you are an Ash Tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
You know that there are two explicitly not-tree entities in this game. That is, they are not a tree or even part of a tree.

Nero, you are a Sad Molesting Tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Everyone hates you, including me. You're the only Vanilla Townie in the game. But at least you know you're the only one. That's something, right? Hahahaha, don't molest me.

He is not afraid of including strange and seemingly really-powerful roles in his games, and that game had 3 scum out of 10 people, this one easily could.

After all, who can always rejoin us if he's telling the truth, no?

I can, but then it turns what could have been a 2-shot cop into an IC, and does not give our investigative PR(s) a chance to investigate. What is wrong with just lynching me tomorrow if I'm lying?

Also, Alduskkel said in the queue "I have modded 4 marathon UPicks before, if you want to get an idea of what sort of roles I come up with. (1) (2) (3) (4) The first one was a little half-assed, but the other three I think turned out nicely and are more representative anyway." so I think the marathons are a fair judge. Also, after having read those, it has occurred to me that the princess might be looking for me, I know I'm looking for her.

These three.

[Desperado]

And balance wasn't the only reason who got lynched. You're again not reading the thread.

Yes it was. There were perfectly legitimate reasons to leave Who alive based on balance and you and Tier and Trine argued against them.

[Desperado]

Who is not town!

Let me spell it out for you guys: That ability is way too powerful and game breaking for a game of this size, especially since

roles were determined before alignment

and this role is predicated on the user being town. Let's not forget that there are better ways to create a role centered around Who's character. For instance, and this one is just off the top of my head, resetting the day phase, deadline and all. No alignments are revealed, it's not game breaking, and it's perfect as either alignment. Furthermore, and I can't stress this enough,

there is no way town would claim this role at this point, especially with the way he claims the time travel mechanic works

. Who as town would be better off letting himself get lynched, having his role and alignment revealed, claiming after the reset happens, and then basking in the conf. town glory. And if you think that scum would kill him if he had that role, think again. Would scum really kill someone who could create 2 conf. town upon death? No freaking way! It's too convenient. It's too overpowered. And most of all,

there is absolutely no reason to claim, especially to escape a lynch

. This is a survival tactic, plain and simple. And there's only one alignment that wants to survive that much.

-Amadeus

Yo guys, while I'm typing up my post, I got some funny scenarios for everyone:

9 players.
1 claims to be a time manipulator role.
1 claims a weak visitor (which dies when he targets scum?)

======

D1 we lynch town.
N1 town is killed.
N1 visitor visits town.
D2 reset happens.

=> 9 players, 2 confirmed townies. 3 probtowns (time master, visitor, visited).

Would you really, really consider any game that could have 5 conf/probtowns out of 9 players on, basically, D1 balanced?


Imagine even a better scenario:
D1 town lynch
N1 town nk
N1 visitor visits scum and dies
D2 reset

=> 9 players. 3 conftown (lynchee, nk, visitor). 1 probtown (time master). 1 confscum (visited).

So we're back to D1 with a confirmed scum? One nightkill later and we're at 7 players, of which 3 are conf/probtown.


Tell me again why you believe one claim but not the other. Especially why you believe Who's claim. It makes no sense at all. One of [Who | Bro] is scum. No doubt about that.

These are the two posts that got Who lynched, and both are solely concerned with how his role doesn't work balancewise.

Your turn.

[Desperado]

"

If you were certain you could verify Bro's claim, then why did we need to lynch Who?

"


I still am. And because I thought he was scum and I didn't believe his claim (balance issues right there).

That isn't an answer. If you are still certain that you could prove whether Bro is scum or not (and thus go a long way towards clearing up Who's alignment), then why did we need to lynch Who?

[Desperado]

Eek, you said:

Tell me again why you believe one claim but not the other. Especially why you believe Who's claim. It makes no sense at all. One of [Who | Bro] is scum. No doubt about that.

before Who flipped.

You are now claiming that you can verify Bro's role, and that you knew that at the time.

So why were you unwilling to let Who live through the night, if you knew you would know his alignment the following day via your Bro result?

PEdit: How convenient.

[Desperado]

You also changed your answer from just now when you said "I still am" to me asking "if you were certain" but whatever.

[Desperado]

"

If you were certain you could verify Bro's claim, then why did we need to lynch Who?

"


I still am. And because I thought he was scum and I didn't believe his claim (balance issues right there).

[Desperado]

I don't see anything in those three Who posts that indicate anything about his alignment. Didn't back then and I don't right now. If you do, please be my guest.

K, this is the part where you show how Tier's behavior has indicated alignment. All you've said is that his push against you felt town.

[Desperado]

The conviction of the other players on the wagon resonates for me because I shared it.

Your conviction contributed to the scum wincon. Why are you townreading people for sharing it???

[Desperado]

I never said that. I said that the current line of thought regarding scum on the Who wagon is incorrect.

This appears to be the essential argument you are making--Bro was correct, but the people who argued vehemently against him aren't scummy because they're human and humans make emotional mistakes.

The way you are just poopooing the very real reasons why scum had every incentive to push Who's lynch using the above argument is so beyond the pale. The decision to let Who live was

obvious

and if your only counterargument is that you and Eek and Tier momentarily blacked out and were emotionally incapable of making a logical decision then...tough shit.

Lynching Who

only helped the scum win condition

. Any attempt to turn it around and call people town for helping it through is foolhardy at best.

PS prodding people on christmas is fucking bonkers

[Desperado]

Probably because they don't.

But just for shits and giggles I checked back for the suspicions TV has been avoiding--all I found was you saying they were disconnected from the early game and then this:

Character name is John Rook and I believe that my game was called 'don't take it personally, babe, it just aint your story'.

You believe? You're the one who picked the game, so is that the game you picked or isn't it?

Vote Turkish Van

You backed off of the Who wagon awfully quick after his claim, while still voicing suspicion on him. It smells like distancing.

-Amadeus

Which she responded to here:

No, it smells like it was a claim that merited further discussion. I unvoted to buy that discussion time and consider how such a non-standard role would work to our advantage if it was true. I think that there were a lot of ways to handle the claim that weren't lynching him Day One, most obviously telling him that he would be expected to use it at the first opportunity to bring back zero dead scum and minimum one dead townie or be policy lynched.

At the time I unvoted, Who was at L-1. The threat of having multiple living confirmed town a couple days into the game might have been enough to make scum quickhammer that wagon. Given how quickly it built back up, I sure don't regret the unvote.

Speaking of, @ TV:

Unvote
Vote: Eek

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Tier

Let's go back here.

[Desperado]

This isn't what Eek did the last time he was L-1 but it still feels town

Not claiming is anti-town and even that part is net-townie for me

Not rereading because "no one is going to reread me after I flip" is town

Vote Count 1.09b

My Milked Eek (3) - BROseidon, Turkish Van, XScorpion
Trine (2) - Grimgroove, TierShift
TierShift (1) - Desperado
XScorpion (1) - My Milked Eek
Turkish Van (1) - Trine

Not Voting (1) - Who

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline is on December 28th, 7 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-28 19:00:00)

[Desperado]

What do you want from me? You towntold and I want Tier dead more than I want you dead.

[Desperado]

I'm not voting Scorp and I want Trine to stick around.

[Desperado]

No, it was L-1. Bro-TV-Scorp-Des.

[Desperado]

I wanted to lynch him before Who claimed and pretty much everything he's done since then has been off-center.

[Desperado]

XS, I have voiced my doubts over desp and bro being town. I'm having a null read on hermy, trine and who, so they could be scum in my book. The rest I see as town.

P-edit: yeah ofc, but reading=/=interacting

Well I don't have a certain scumread atm, so that's why I'm not voting. I'd like to lynch desp, but I haven't been able to point out exactly why. I'm also on the fence about Who, whose explanations baffle me. Not as in I think they're super scummy, but as in I have no idea what he's saying.

Who, what do you mean with forced activity? And how was the unvote a reaction test for hermy?

Someone asked for a reason why Who shouldn't be lynched. I was making it clear that I had no such reasons (and, thus, wouldn't object to lynching him).

What in any of that is sheeping?

My wording is bad. Trying to say: you are agreeing with a who lynch without being tracable. It's not much of a tell, but I don't really understand the purpose of the post, I don't think Trine wanted everyone to answer 'no, I don't object', without putting in further reasoning.

@Who thanks for telling me that hermy thing, hadn't realized that before, omg that is scummy like how did I even not see that. XS, now I have someone to vote for, a replacement being pressured from the get-go is something I like.
VOTE: hermy

@Who thanks for telling me that hermy thing, hadn't realized that before,

omg that is scummy like how did I even not see that.

XS, now I have someone to vote for, a replacement being pressured from the get-go is something I like.
VOTE: hermy

Thanks TierShift for pointing this out.

This is what was making me not like TierShift. The bolded is overemphasis; Tiershift really wants us to know that he didn't see what Who pointed out and that he's sorry for it.

VOTE: TierShift

Yes, I do really want you to know I feel sorry. I shouldn't be discovering things that happened the first pages, while having already been in the game for 10 pages and outing my opinions and suspicions, should I?

I don't like TierShift's recent posts but I'm very afraid that they're noobtown.

My sentiments exactly. I'd be willing to make a fair wager that Tier is just scum though.
Tier, what do you think of Who?
Who, what do you think of Tier?

I think who's start was pretty weak (with the desp thingy) but from there the logic on the hermy scumread was pretty sound. I like his 382, even though he is setting himself up for an easy me vote tomorrow, he sounds genuine and as a slightly paranoid town.

This was Tier's pre-Who claim trajectory. Starts null, leans scummy as Who avoids some questions aimed at him, and then swings back to leaning town after his responses.

Stating intent to hammer

I'm going with the logic d1 lynch>d1 no lynch and nullread lynch>town lynch.


Who, I will hammer at

2 hours before deadline

. Until then, you have to claim and defend yourself.

@mod: XScorpion isn't voting me anymore.

Fixed.

Wait, what? Tier sheeps Who on Hermy, leans him town for paranoia, and then pushes him back to null to justify his intent to hammer.

UNVOTE: Who

That is one SICK role. I suppose you can also use it when NK'd?
I just can't believe that we're basically playing the game with 2 conftowns...
I'd be totally fine with getting lynched now.

If you refuse to rewind time tomorrow after lynching a townie+a townie getting nightkilled you should be lynched whatever happens.

I realize that if I don't get cleared by rewinding time I will probably be lynched the next day.

Still, I'm gonna push for an Eek lynch, lynching possible scum is still better than lynching town.
VOTE: Eek

The previous player in your spot didn't do anything

not

scummy and you have just been lurking. Wanna share your thoughts about the game?

Keep this in mind for later. And the bold is just

It would be even more dangerous for scum to keep him alive as later in the game there is too little time to kill the conftowns.
Or he is lying but then he gets lynched day 2.

Exactly. Tier understood that lynching Who D1 is good for scum because lynching Who D2 is guaranteed to be worse.

Apart from the game-breaking-ness, your post is wrong.

Current Status: Alignments have randomly been determined. Roles are now being created and should be done sometime on the 27th.

Who would definitely claim at this point, if he were lynched there'd be 1 conftown if another townie is lynched there'd be 2 tomorrow.

What is the concensus of the others about the possibility of this role passing balance tests?
Maybe there is a mafia roleblocker?

Only now does the notion of balance show up in Tier's throught process, after Trine suggests that Who's role is not balanced. Where is Tier's opinion on this? Nowhere to be found. He's testing the waters to see if he can lynch Who after all.

Trine as Who stated his roleclaim he can revert time at any time of his choice; that means even when not killed he can revert time.

Inb4 who is a jester.

P-edit: broseidon that's what I said. There simply is no excuse for not turning back time tonight.

P-edit 2: TV I think a killed scum+a killed townie>2 conftown and no kills. Don't you agree?

dat jester tell

tier
- his entry is hilarious (page 8). He's caught up and we should notify him of anything he has missed. Yet he only comments on a post broseidon made on page 2. He puts him at L-1 not even reading the thread. I don't care, if you don't see the votecount 7-10 posts above yours and if you can't add the vote in the post above yours, you're not reading the thread. I'm getting mixed signals from his newbie replacement claim onwards. @Tier: would you have any objections to be being lynched today considering you believe Who's claim?

I was saying that I didn't mind dying for the good cause, since we would have a confscum d2.

But I changed my mind.

If scum don't kill we could get a conftown someone else and probtown me, or I could save my role for when they do kill, also we get a conftown from BRO. Also, the wording of my role PM implies the possibility for more than one death per night.

About TS, I would say that his willingness to be lynched looks Towny but a bit too quick to trust (From his perspective I might be scum postponing my lynch by a day) and could be a traitor. The possibility of one traitor+2scum is present given my role, and the traitor, if they exist, would want to sacrfice themselves to prevent two conftowns.

I don't think at all that my willingness to be lynched looks townie. The way you are trying to paint me black thereafter is horrific.

There is a very important detail that you forgot to mention about your role. You would need to be told at the end of the night who is killed by pm, otherwise all your posts don't make sense. I see no way how you could forget to include that.

Does anyone have ANY idea how this role could possibly be balanced out in a 9p game?

INTENT TO HAMMER

Eek support's Trine's "Who's role isn't balanced!" and Tier is just eating it up.

@Eek: in my mind, voting for a player and wanting to hammer said player feel similar.

Has anyone read any of Alduskkel's previous games? Here are the roles from a

marathon

I replaced into (I replaced Majiffy):
Alduskkel's Arboreal UPick - Game Over!

Spoiler: Roles

1. Majiffy - Root - Mafia Traitor & Roleblocker
2. zabriel - Ironwood - BP
3. GuyInFreezer - Saigyou Ayakasi - 1-Shot PGO
4. Kid A - Bonsai - Tree Cop
5. Lucky2u - Dryad - Tree Protector
6. Severe Dirt Trip - Ash - Informed Tree
7. killerjester - Tree of Heaven - Ascetic Tree
8. Cephrir - Kalpavriksha - Wish Giver
9. Marquis - Demeter, Goddess of the Harvest - Vote Giver
10. Nero - Sad Molesting Tree - Vanilla Townie

Majiffy, you are a root. You're also a Mafia Traitor/Roleblocker! Cephrir and killerjester are in the Mafia, but they don't know that you're on their side.
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability:
If you are ever killed (treestumped), you will gain the ability to roleblock another player each night.

Zabriel, you are Ironwood.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
You can't be killed at Night.

GuyInFreezer, you are Saigyou Ayakasi, a deadly tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Once in the game, at Night, you can choose to blossom and kill anyone who targets you.

Kid A, you are a Bonsai.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability: Each Night, you can target someone and learn if they are a tree or part of a tree. This isn't necessarily indicative of alignment.

Lucky2u, you are a Dryad.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Each Night, you can target someone, and if they are a fully grown tree then you will protect them.

killerjester, you are a Tree of Heaven and a member of the Arboreal Mafia with Cephrir. Talk to him here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/sseWPbHWDtSuv
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability: You're a stinky tree, so people don't like to target you. You're immune to all non-killing actions.

Cephrir, you are Kalpavriksha. You are also a member of the Mafia with killerjester. Talk to him here:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/sseWPbHWDtSuv
You win when the Mafia have taken over the tree community.
Special Ability:
Each Night, you can offer a player a 1-shot daykill in exchange for their vote. They have the option to accept or not accept. You keep the vote permanently.

Marquis, you are Demeter.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Each Night you can grant a player an extra vote the next day. They keep the vote permanently. You can't target yourself.

Severe Dirt Trip, you are an Ash Tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
You know that there are two explicitly not-tree entities in this game. That is, they are not a tree or even part of a tree.

Nero, you are a Sad Molesting Tree.
You win when all threats to the tree community are dead.
Special Ability:
Everyone hates you, including me. You're the only Vanilla Townie in the game. But at least you know you're the only one. That's something, right? Hahahaha, don't molest me.

He is not afraid of including strange and

seemingly really-powerful roles

in his games, and that game had 3 scum out of 10 people, this one easily could.

Ok so that was a marathon game (hint: they are often fucked up) without any OP roles as in the whole game centers around the role.

You're making up excuses.

Tier probably didn't even read the information Who provided, which completely negated everything he and Trine and Eek had been pushing up to that point--Alduskkel's games are known for their role madness, and he specifically namedropped the marathon games as potential baselines for the roles in this one.

Lol trine I keep forgetting that, it's just so ridiculous how a role can even do that.

VOTE: who

TURN YOUR RESURRECTING HOURGLASS NOW, PLEASE

The coup de grace.

BRO you must be right. There absolutely need to be 2 scum on that wagon.

Does this make bro scum, or am I missing something?

This post gives me the chills, it's creepy as fuck. There is no way that scum would have wanted to not lynch who, there just is no way.

VOTE: Trine

This completely clears BRO and to a lesser extent desp and TV.

None of this makes any sense. Tier was piggybacking Trine's setup spec after he had already outlined how lynching Who D1 was good for scum.

I just can't get around that there has to be scum involved with voting who after the claim.

I just made a reference list for town. In their book, I could very well be scum.

Something is off with your post. I hope I'll be around to find out what and address it later.

The distancing language in this post is crazy blatant. Tier isn't a part of the town and he is unconsciously showing it.

@Trine: I was not happy at all with your post. That made me vote you because I wanted answers.
Now that it looks like I will be quicklynched I want town to know who I think is scum when I flip.

Here's my role:
Eavesdropper, I get a random QT message pasted by the mod at the end of each night with the names blanked out.
Character name is John Rook and I believe that my game was called 'don't take it personally, babe, it just aint your story'.

Once again, this role is totally made up. None of the games Alduskkel linked in the queue contained any roles that interacted with Quicktopics, and the power itself is so useless and easily fakable that it just isn't real.

As eek was to kindly point out, I didn't technically unvote.

As for the reasoning behind the voting:
First everyone was buying the claim and I wasn't too sure on it. I found it to be a very OP role, but if it were true, a who lynch would be very undesirable.
I was looking solely at numbers and I was like:
1. If I get lynched today and who didn't lie, we will have 2 conftown tomorrow.
2. If I get lynched and who did lie, we have a who lynch d2.

Both situations are desirable (as in better than average). So I thought: let's get my ass lynched.

Then, as I read Trine's and Eek's arguments, I went back and revisited my old feelings that the claim could be untrue.

I realized that hammering scum d1 would definitely be better than being mislynched. It would also clear a lot of the suspicion on me. But I had to be sure that who was scum.

I reread. From who's posts I could tell he hadn't thought too much about his role, he said he was going to create 2 conftown+himself probtown. No way scum would kill another player than who after that claim, they're not gonna create extra probtowns when they can get away with only 2 conftowns.
His play didn't add up either nor his claim, he should have played in a way that would get him NK'D. if you really had such a role you could make up a claim that would get you through the day unlynched but baiting the NK or something that gets policy lynched D2.

All in all, it just seemed like who didn't put too much time in overthinking the role and certainly didn't play from the start with the role in mind.

Next to that, I found the role itself absolutely absurd. It's OP, incredibly swingy and hardly balancable.

This is all bullshit. Tier's immediate reaction to Who's claim didn't show any signs of doubt. He only "found the role itself absolutely absurd" after he had been spoonfed the arguments for why by Trine and Eek. And his saying this confirms that he didn't read any of Alduskkel's roles from other games.

tl;dr - Tier had Who leaning town until he needed a justification for hammering him, so he went back to null for a deadline compromise.

His reaction to Who's claim and his later recollections don't match and make himself look better. He understood that lynching Who today was objectively worse for the town than lynching him tomorrow and he went and did it anyway, on the shoulders of others. And his posts are littered with bits of self-awareness that feel put on and distancing language that implicitly suggest he is apart from the town.

[Desperado]

I never townread who, I said his L382 sounded like paranoid town. If you look at the first part of the post in which I said that, you see that I also pointed out scummy things about him.

Then, I explained how the role worked to Trine, without thinking too much about if the claim was fake. I just hadn't thought too much about it, then Trine and Eek came in and say the role is game-breaking. Then I thought about it and formed an opinion (that who was scum). I don't agree that the other games had roles even remotely close to the gamebreakingness of who's role, as I said earlier.

I don't see distancing language.

And about the role being fake...how can I help the role that the mod send me being unverifiable? :/

You never said "Who is town" but you sheeped his scumread and then pointed out something that was town. Where are the scummy things in this post?

@Who thanks for telling me that hermy thing, hadn't realized that before,

omg that is scummy like how did I even not see that.

XS, now I have someone to vote for, a replacement being pressured from the get-go is something I like.
VOTE: hermy

Thanks TierShift for pointing this out.

This is what was making me not like TierShift. The bolded is overemphasis; Tiershift really wants us to know that he didn't see what Who pointed out and that he's sorry for it.

VOTE: TierShift

Yes, I do really want you to know I feel sorry. I shouldn't be discovering things that happened the first pages, while having already been in the game for 10 pages and outing my opinions and suspicions, should I?

I don't like TierShift's recent posts but I'm very afraid that they're noobtown.

My sentiments exactly. I'd be willing to make a fair wager that Tier is just scum though.
Tier, what do you think of Who?
Who, what do you think of Tier?

I think who's start was pretty weak (with the desp thingy) but from there the logic on the hermy scumread was pretty sound. I like his 382, even though he is setting himself up for an easy me vote tomorrow, he sounds genuine and as a slightly paranoid town.

I bolded the distancing language.

And the role isn't fake because it's unverifiable. It's fake because none of the games Alduskkel linked contained a role that interacted with a quicktopic AND the ability itself has no utility.

[Desperado]

Because your role is fucking useless.

And "interacting with QTs" is a much broader subcategory than "time reversal."

[Desperado]

Might lose us the game even.

Then why wouldn't you self hammer?

Desp, why are you willing to let such AtE sway you?

I've wanted Tier dead more than Eek since the beginning, so it shouldn't be that surprising, but do you disagree that the AtE was town?

[Desperado]

GG everyone!

Chalk up another one in the "Desperado's town utterly destroys the mafia" column.

This is starting to get kinda weird.