Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[Trine]

Vote XScorpion

Your avatar scares me...

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

Is this paranoia?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

We are actually a hydra.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

What other heads other than Bulbazak?

Undisclosed.

And who is which head?

We'll sign our posts and won't goof around impersonating each other. Beyond that you are on your own.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Why no vote?

Would it be a problem if he hadn't voted?

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

Is this paranoia?

~ Zoya

It was actually RVS. What do I have to be paranoid of?

I see paranoia as usually a town trait.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Turkish Van being a non presence here is interesting. Come play with us, ladies.

Unvote: scorp

Vote: Turkish Van

~Pontius

[Trine]

I see paranoia as usually a town trait.

That's cool.

So why would/should I be paranoid of you?

I don't know. Should I take it as a sign that you are town?

~ Xoya

[Trine]

Your words are not exactly searching.

~ Xoya

[Trine]

Because of the paranoia-thing.

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

Is this paranoia?

~ Zoya

Looks like an (albeit humble) effort to get out of RVS.

Vote: Trine

I fear that which I do not know

Is this paranoia?

~ Zoya

It was actually RVS. What do I have to be paranoid of?

I see paranoia as usually a town trait.

~ Zoya

But why question someone over something you consider a town-trait?

I see paranoia as usually a town trait.

That's cool.

So why would/should I be paranoid of you?

I don't know. Should I take it as a sign that you are town?

~ Xoya

And this shows a strong inclination to townread Desperado. Desperado earlier said that he wasn't paranoid ("blank slates"), yet here Zoya insists his extended hand over the paranoia-tell that has been waved away by Desperado himself.

I see no progression (which could be explained by passing the ENTIRE thing off as fluff-RVS-posting) were it not for what I consider to be a subtle buddying-attempt in the form of an implied and persevering willingness to townread Desperado.

I'd like the Zoya-head to respond.

I have concerns about Desperado actually, which is why I tried to initiate some discussion with him. I didn't want to completely lay out what I would expect from him if he's town at that point, but his not pushing harder right off the bat to move the game out of RVS was of concern to me.

And, though Hermy has had some recent successes as scum, and they probably do hinge to some degree on people letting their guard down because her town play often looks scummy, I still consider his vote on her a little suspect. I don't think she'll be that difficult to sort.

If Desperado is town, I want to figure that out early because his reads are usually good and he's a good player to bounce ideas around with. Right now, I don't have a good town-sense about him.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

TV is also of concern. Pontius has his eye on them.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Distressed?

Easy-looking lynches always catch my attention. Particularly when someone I consider a strong player seems interested in one.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Yes, distressed. Both of your initial scumreads(?) are directly related to their vote on Hermy.

Both of our initial scumreads have their genesis prior to Hermy's first post.

And you're still sidestepping the issue.

I don't believe I am. I think you are sidestepping my issue, actually.

Does your argument really end at "Hermy is lynchbait?"

My argument begins with "why is Desperado not doing anything to advance the game out of RVS? Not even my half-assed posts at him elicited a snap." Hermy is an afterthought, though one I find somewhat concerning.

Pontius' argument re TV begins with "Why are they active elswhere and not in this game?" Where it ends, perhaps Pointius knows.

If so, is it because you agree that their post was scummy as balls?

Almost too scummy to be scum. Almost. Hermy should be fairly easy to sort.

~ Zora

[Trine]

My argument begins with "why is Desperado not doing anything to advance the game out of RVS? Not even my half-assed posts at him elicited a snap." Hermy is an afterthought, though one I find somewhat concerning.

So when it became clear that your prodding me wasn't doing anything to achieve your stated goal (get out of RVS), why didn't you try something else? It looks a lot to me like you all passed the buck on to Penguin and I (calling her out for inactivity during a holiday on page two?) and then calling us scummy for not doing the work for you.

My feeling is that once RVS was done, it was done. Grimgroove and XScorpion ended it, and earned townreads in the process. While that was a lost opportunity to form a read on you, it won't be the only opportunity.

fwiw, your belated taking up of my invitation to discuss has been more in the vein of what I would expect from you as town.

[Trine]

I don't think she'll be that difficult to sort.

Hermy should be fairly easy to sort.

Can you elaborate on this? I find lynch-bait players the hardest to sort (bad memories of drmyshottyizsik).

Tone and timing, along with some meta comparisons.

[Trine]

Both the above are

~ Zoya

[Trine]

I don't think she'll be that difficult to sort.

Hermy should be fairly easy to sort.

Can you elaborate on this? I find lynch-bait players the hardest to sort (bad memories of drmyshottyizsik).

Tone and timing, along with some meta comparisons.

What exactly about tone and timing gives you reads?

I don't know, exactly, but I've been developing tone-and-timing-informed reads since I started playing mafia. But, they usually point up something more objective in the involved posts, and I can almost always explain my read in a decipherable form once it's jelled.

And how am I supposed to make meta-comparisons without having played with Hermy?

Cold meta is a thing. I've meta'd her for other games and I'll be doing some reviews to refresh my memory.

I'll be off the grid for a bit. Will check back in later today.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

I am very curious as to how she sees me vs. GG as town on town when I didn't get any read from GG (except for a read of our mutual math and communication skills). Trine as well (GG already explained it as gut). Can the both of you explain the townreads? Is it just gut or do you have more reasoning??

You are town, because you seem genuinely confused and are actively trying to figure things out. Grim is town, because it looked like he legitimately misunderstood you. Once he realized that, he stopped pushing you, instead of continuing to push you and framing it as you willfully misrepping him.

Unvote

Vote BROseidon

He's looking for reasons to vote, rather than trying to figure out who's scum.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I can buy that.
VOTE: Who needs to get in the game.
@Who: Why wagon the hydras?

Why are you applying stupid pressure votes when there's better people to pressure.

Why shouldn't he pressure Who?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I don't know, exactly, but I've been developing tone-and-timing-informed reads since I started playing mafia. But, they usually point up something more objective in the involved posts, and I can almost always explain my read in a decipherable form once it's jelled.

For most players this makes sense but for lynch-bait players this may be difficult at best. Some players just always seem scummy to me, but I've been told I am overly accusative.

There are players I tend to scumread by default as well. I have reason to think that I can get a decent read on Hermy by watching her interactions and reactions. If I give up on it, I'll be sure to make that known.

Cold meta is a thing. I've meta'd her for other games and I'll be doing some reviews to refresh my memory.

It's a thing, but how useful is it really? I find that unless I've actually interacted with players in a game (past or present) I don't have any way to get a good read.

I concede that my ability to read this type of player is flimsy at best, so I won't push a wagon on Hermy now (also because I don't want her voting herself out right away) but if I am confident she is scum I'm not going to let her reputation prevent me from voting her.

If you become confident she's scum then by all means pursue it.

I am very curious as to how she sees me vs. GG as town on town when I didn't get any read from GG (except for a read of our mutual math and communication skills). Trine as well (GG already explained it as gut). Can the both of you explain the townreads? Is it just gut or do you have more reasoning??

Your interactions with each other, what caused you to sheath the verbal swords, and the fact that both of you pushed beyond the RVS envelope. Scum like RVS and usually aren't interested in helping move the game into more productive territory.

@Des:

- Baselessly calls a slapfight TvT

Trine is doing this too. Do you think they and Hermy are both scummy for this?

p-edit: TV's is a good post.

I didn't call either of you town purely on the basis of your slapfight. I'm not sure how you got that from my posts.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

But Trine really IS doing this also, to an even greater degree than Grim. If Hermy is scum then Grim is probably more likely to be his partner--if Hermy is town, Trine is more likely to be scum looking for towncred.

In either case, how much more likely do you actually think?

I've used reactions to lynchbait as a sorting tool in the past. It's hardly 100%, but it's sometimes alignment indicative given other aspects of a player's game and given their meta. I let one get away not too long ago, though it pinged at the time.

[Trine]

Unvote
Vote: Sanhora

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!

Did you have reason to think that invoking Sanhora at this time would cause an appearance?

[Trine]

http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 84&t=28498
And yes.

This is a strange derphammer to bring up. It's not like Desp is Saki or something.

I unvoted TV because things were going slowly and I decided to get a wagon going. Then I realized that someone else had voted TV so a wagon was going. TV is currently at L-2.

Why did you feel the need to justify your vote?

Sorry, busy weekend.

The Scorpion and Grimgroove thing looks like town on town to me at the moment.

On a semi OT (but indie game related, so yeah) note: I went and downloaded Surgeon Simulator 2013 today, hoping for a few hours of hilarious fun. I complete the operation on my first go with an A++. *siiiiiigh*

Urge to lynch, rising.

During the previos game I've played with Hermy, she set herself up as lynchbait in the beginning of the game as well. I would like to see her operate without any pressure at all before reaching any conclusions on that slot.

"I'm okay with letting players obfuscate scummy play with meta-level stupidity."

...

Grim, why are you encouraging someone to continue playing badly as town? Even if you're right and Hermy is town setting herself up as an easy mislynch, that is just a distraction--at best.

This is your 2nd post on the same page where you post something right after penguin that supports penguin's post.

VOTE: Desp

And for the record, before this thing starts leading its own life: I never defended Hermy. I simply advocated another approach based on my earlier experiences with her. Just read the game I linked you to earlier you'll see perfectly where I'm coming from. Even that game itself I had resevrations about Baezu because of her lynchbait characteristics, but still went after her in the end after she failed in some reaction tests. And I went after Hermy for not recognizing the fact she was lynchbait as well. Lynchbaits are lynchbaits exactly because they fail reaction tests, regardless of alignment. So how to discern the alignment of lynchbait? Not through reaction tests, but by letting them act on their own accord.

...except you are...

We noticed last night that Desp's initial two votes had followed TV's.

Do you have a theory why Scum-Desperado would shadow TV?

~ Zoya (as were the previous two posts)

[Trine]

Yeah, Bo was posting in the postgame of another game.

Your signature gives your post such a twist. I have to read them twice to tell if there really is a wink implied by the text.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

How would you rank Des/Hermy/GG in terms of scumminess right now?

Desp>GG>Hermy

Why is GG scummy? And if GG is scummy is there some reason why we are not? If your read of GG is dependent on his stance re Hermy, then I feel that we should also be somewhere in your list.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

We noticed last night that Desp's initial two votes had followed TV's.

Do you have a theory why Scum-Desperado would shadow TV?

How did you notice something that isn't true? I only "followed" Penguin on to Hermy, and that's only in the sense that we both reacted the same way to Hermy's post--and again, no one has even attempted to argue against it being scummy.

Ah you're right. Your vote on us came before TV's. I had it backwards in memory. Never mind the bit about following, then. I'll keep it in mind as a parallel in progression.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

How would you rank Des/Hermy/GG in terms of scumminess right now?

Desp>GG>Hermy

Why is GG scummy? And if GG is scummy is there some reason why we are not? If your read of GG is dependent on his stance re Hermy, then I feel that we should also be somewhere in your list.

~ Zoya

To be fair here, I only asked BRO to compare these three because 122 seemed to suggest he thought all three were scummy.

Then my question is even more relevant. Why wasn't I mentioned in post 122?

[Trine]

Given my scumreads, you're implicitly town. Why should I give scum a sense of relative strength of townreads?

Back up and explain why GG is scum again. I'm missing something pretty important if you have him as scum and me as town.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Your strongest scum read is based on apparent synch with a perceived strong player. Is there more to the Desperado scumread?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

It's associative and contingent on Desp being scum.

So obviously I'm pushing Desp before anyone else.

How is Grim connected to Desp?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Unvote

I wish you had waited a little bit. I was in the process of beating up a partner about scumreading you.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Bro, what game are you?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I think I know who you are...

PM your guess to the mod. We'll see if you are correct in the postgame.

~ Zora

[Trine]

Bro, what game are you?

Gone Home.

Okay, your role actually makes sense now.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

BROseidon,

Have Hermy/GG/Tier all three exceeded Desperado in scummyness? Or have you decided Desperado is town by some other reasoning?

[Trine]

~ Zoya

[Trine]

TV you two ladies are breaking my poor heart. Bro is

town as fuck

and you all can deal with it btw!

~Pontius

[Trine]

BROseidon,

Have Hermy/GG/Tier all three exceeded Desperado in scummyness? Or have you decided Desperado is town by some other reasoning?

The former.

Hi. Talk

dirty

reads to me.

~Pontius

[Trine]

No gambits up my sleeve or anything, just an angry crab, so I guess we'll just have to start with your townreads. Let's compare notes?

~Pontius

[Trine]

TV has generally posted good content that makes sense from a town-perspective. Also, I'd have expected penguin to push me by now if she were scum; she knows she can out-argue me fairly consistently.

This is the one I disagree on. Can you go into more detail about the bro-peng status quo, and why you think it's not peng just meta-dodging to give you what you're looking for?
~Pontius

[Trine]

The way your hydra has responded to my play indicates a familiarity with my play that you didn't need to indicate, and you could have used your anonymity to fake not knowing how my playstyle works. I don't see a scum-motivation in how you've dealt with this.

We're no animorph, that's for sure; but I'd prefer you keep it between us for now, ok?

[Trine]

The way your hydra has responded to my play indicates a familiarity with my play that you didn't need to indicate, and you could have used your anonymity to fake not knowing how my playstyle works. I don't see a scum-motivation in how you've dealt with this.

We're no animorph, that's for sure; but I'd prefer you keep it between us for now, ok?

~Pontius

[Trine]

Sounds good.

I shouldn't have to go over why XScorp is town because it's obvious as shit. There's some stuff I want to keep obfuscated in there because ~reasons~

TV has generally posted good content that makes sense from a town-perspective. Also, I'd have expected penguin to push me by now if she were scum; she knows she can out-argue me fairly consistently.

The way your hydra has responded to my play indicates a familiarity with my play that you didn't need to indicate, and you could have used your anonymity to fake not knowing how my playstyle works. I don't see a scum-motivation in how you've dealt with this.

Desp and Who are town by virtue of other people being scummier.

So objectively Desperado's play has the same degree of scumminess to you as before?

I'm not entirely comfortable with him, but I did like the way he went after me for finding fault with his play during the first few pages of the game. The rift between what I'd expect from him as town in the early game and what I see here has closed considerably.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

@ Trine-Amadeus: How does the game-name relate to the role? Just checked the wiki (looks like an interesting game), but I don't see how it relates to the PR in such an obvious way like you suggested.

Gone Home is a game where the main character arrives at an empty house and must proceed to explore it. In this sense, you, the player, are just visiting the house, which fits with the Visitor role. The only reason why it has the weak modifier is that Visitor is a useless role by itself, so I can see the mod adding the modifier to actually make it useful.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

VOTE: Who

Let's dance.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Why are you so quiet this game?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Why are you so quiet this game?

~ Zoya

For some reason I just can't get into this game, not sure why. I'm pretty sure I'll become more active (Note: This is not a promise only a prediction) soon, for some reason it feels like a large right now. Also it feels as if I haven't played mafia in ages. I'm in only one other game right now, and I died in my last completed game back in the beginning of november, when usually I am in many games at once, so that might have something to do with it.

Oh shit you are scum wow. So many excuses for a simple friendly dance request. Reminds me of one of our old games.
~Pontius

[Trine]

You have got to be kidding me.

How does that warrant a townread?
How is it critical thinking? He doesn't even have his facts straight.

Zoya head of Trine: I want your opinion on this post.

It is a familiar disconnect for me. There is a style of scum-hunting that couldn't be more alien to me if the divergence in brain evolution coincided with the appearance of Tiktaalik

~ Zoya

[Trine]

You would have preferred "Because I feel like being quiet"? (The short version of what I said)

We would have preferred something vastly different from that metric shitton of excuses and apologies, yes.

What we would have preferred was a reply that glimmered, even slightly, of town.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

No you're scum because I pegged the fuck out of you.

Cat, outside the bag. Outside the bag, cat.

[Trine]

@CabdWhich head are you?

I'm sure you'd like to know.

[Trine]

It's interesting, Who
Your first response isn't to contextualize my reads in light of being me
instead you immediately demand to know which head I am, as if that somehow changes things

[Trine]

Turkish Van,

What are your thoughts about Who?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

I can't say that I'm insulted, but I am puzzled.

Also, let's try again. What was it that you wished me to look at in that post?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Have you played with him before?

He strikes me as the kind of player who goes into blitzkrieg mode when he smells blood in the water, to mangle some metaphors.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

These are from his wiki. Two scum game ISOs, and the second is the most recent. See what you make of them.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

As a linguist, you are probably better suited for these analyses than I am.

[Trine]

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Someone asked for a reason why Who shouldn't be lynched. I was making it clear that I had no such reasons (and, thus, wouldn't object to lynching him).

What in any of that is sheeping?

I note with trepidation that you aren't putting nearly as much into this game as you can.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

@Eek
Your predecessor did not leave you in a very good state.

Thank you for the scumclaim, who.

[Trine]

I think the scummers in Russia can hear my twitching right now from that post.

[Trine]

Loving how who is suddenly like "your" wagon peng. Not that I care which player takes credit for a scumlynch, seeing myself as the first vote on the wagon is reward in and of itself.

[Trine]

So, hi guys!

Gimme a few moments to catch up.

Unvote.

Hello, how is this going?

- Zoya

[Trine]

Who needs more votes.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Eek is in Europe, which makes his posting times a little different, but yes, he hasn't indicated that he's caught up, has reads, etc.

Who's wagon is still an excellent place to put your vote.

Grammatically, should that be Whose wagon?

- Zoya

[Trine]

MORE SHEEP FOR THE SHEEP GODS.

[Trine]

I agree that the players uninterested in the Who wagon are scummy in their own rights, and particularly like your Turkish Van read.

In case our protective role isn't paying attention:

BRO needs protecting tonight.

We are not willing to compromise on Tier today, not with Turkish Van pushing that lynch while giving halfhearted support to the Who wagon.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Should read: I agree that

some of

the players uninterested in the Who wagon are scummy in their own rights, and particularly like your Turkish Van read.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Should read: I agree that

some of

the players uninterested in the Who wagon are scummy in their own rights, and particularly like your Turkish Van read.

~ Zoya

Who is 'some of'?

Primarily TV. To a lesser extent Hermy/Eek, though we don't really have anything Eek-specific upon which to consider yet.

And if Who is hammered before Eek has a chance to post some reads, I will be most displeased with the hammerer.

~ Zoya.

[Trine]

2 conftowns

Excuse me?

[Trine]

Who is not town!

Let me spell it out for you guys: That ability is way too powerful and game breaking for a game of this size, especially since

roles were determined before alignment

and this role is predicated on the user being town. Let's not forget that there are better ways to create a role centered around Who's character. For instance, and this one is just off the top of my head, resetting the day phase, deadline and all. No alignments are revealed, it's not game breaking, and it's perfect as either alignment. Furthermore, and I can't stress this enough,

there is no way town would claim this role at this point, especially with the way he claims the time travel mechanic works

. Who as town would be better off letting himself get lynched, having his role and alignment revealed, claiming after the reset happens, and then basking in the conf. town glory. And if you think that scum would kill him if he had that role, think again. Would scum really kill someone who could create 2 conf. town upon death? No freaking way! It's too convenient. It's too overpowered. And most of all,

there is absolutely no reason to claim, especially to escape a lynch

. This is a survival tactic, plain and simple. And there's only one alignment that wants to survive that much.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

How could his role get roleblocked? It sounds like it'd be unstoppable to me. Again, I don't think such a role exists in this game, and even if it did, it's not a deterrent to lynching him. And there's definitely not going to be 2 conf. town, since no scum in their right mind would allow that to happen. It's a convenient claim. That's all it is.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I <3 everything that Eek has posted today, though I don't agree with all of it.

Town: BROseidon, My Milked Eek, Xscorpion, GrimGroove
Null: Tier, Desperado
Scum: Who, TV

These are my reads, and are reshaped by my reactions to the last couple of pages. My compatriots may not agree with all of them. I hope they have a chance to post reads before someone hammers, but if not you at least have these for tomorrow.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

[]======
======[]

[Trine]

After all, who can always rejoin us if he's telling the truth, no?

[Trine]

head...hurts

Resetting and rereading.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Does this make bro scum, or am I missing something?

[Trine]

Tier,

What led you to unvote?

What led you to revote?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

@Trine: I was not happy at all with your post. That made me vote you because I wanted answers.
Now that it looks like I will be quicklynched I want town to know who I think is scum when I flip.

Here's my role:
Eavesdropper, I get a random QT message pasted by the mod at the end of each night with the names blanked out.
Character name is John Rook and I believe that my game was called 'don't take it personally, babe, it just aint your story'.

That's not what I'm talking about - I'm asking why you unvoted Who and then revoted him.

So you have a QT that only you and the mod share?

[Trine]

The above was me, Zoya.

As for the post you wanted answers about, I gather it was an unsigned post? If so, I'll let the author explain it.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Why do you think my esteemed compatriot believed the proof of Who's role potentially points to scum-BROseidon? And why did his post saying so bother you?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Your other head was talking about the post about balance issues by eek earlier, I get that.
But how in the world can BRO be scum when he is actively trying to prevent a day 1 who lynch (a lynch that is far from certain to go through) when the only way to prevent 2 conftowns the next day is to lynch who?

My other head (actually both other heads) was primarily concerned about balance issues, I think. Though he could have gone through some of the same thought process I did after the flip. We haven't talked about this game in depth since his last post, the post you didn't like, and probably won't for a few hours yet.

I looked at the reactions to Who's claim and his subsequent flip from the perspective of who might have betrayed knowledge that his claim was true.

You fit that profile pretty well, but your play otherwise has seemed null to me, so I decided to do a reset.

TV's non-presence during all of that also could be indicative.

I don't think we should be in such a hurry to end this game day.

I want to speculate wildly about the setup, but that's probably not such a great use of my time.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Character name is John Rook and I believe that my game was called 'don't take it personally, babe, it just aint your story'.

You believe? You're the one who picked the game, so is that the game you picked or isn't it?

Vote Turkish Van

You backed off of the Who wagon awfully quick after his claim, while still voicing suspicion on him. It smells like distancing.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Townread on Trine shattered ftr.

It's not the first time I've valued my read over set-up spec. But in this case the set-up spec expert among my compatriots didn't believe the role makes sense in a 9p game, which gave me more reason to trust my read.

I translate player reactions to Who's claim based on my own thoughts as events unfolded.

And, I am happy with our TV vote. I didn't like the way they backed off their vote almost instantly. Unlike most of town, it's like they knew right away the claim was legitimate.

Tier's quick back-off and return is also suspicious. I'm weighing that against a town-sense from some of his other stances.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

e both giving TierShift heat for the hammer on Who. But as I see it, they were both in a position to unvote Who after his claim, and thus were in no position to paint that hammer off as scummy in the way they did it, without being terrible hypocrites

You display no understanding whatsoever about what concerned me in Tier's play.

TV's play is of greater concern.

There is a point where the benefit of verifying if someone is scum is outweighed by the losing of 2 town members (yes 2, there's a NK) and that point is based on the chance that said person (in this case who) is scum.

No one actually believes this, do they?
"99%" is bullshit and you know it. NO ONE was that sure Who was scum.

what good is QT-investigations for scum?

Masons/neighbours. Besides, there's no way to verify the QT messages aren't made up anyway.

Also visitor =/= neighbourizer.

I don't mind flavor claiming day 2, but claiming day 1 only helps scum to figure out who might have certain power roles (e.g. I wonder what role Robocop would have hurr durr).
Anyway Tier is lying about his role so it doesn't matter.

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

[Trine]

Why do you say Tier is lying about his role?

Because it is impossible to verify, and unlike Bro's claim, the results he comes up with don't actually mean anything.

That doesn't make it a lie.

Given what has been revealed about the set up, town must have some null utility or even negative utility roles. Or scum must be exceptionally buffed.

Going with the latter. I think there are either 3 scum, or 2 scum with crazy-good abilities.

I expect some from column A and some from column B.

[Trine]

First off, Bro, you need to get off your high horse and get rid of this "When I'm right, I'm right, and when I'm wrong, I'm right." attitude you have. If not, I fear this game is going to humble you real quick. Were we wrong in our approach to the Who wagon? Yes, but that does not give you the right to adopt a holier than thou attitude, especially since there were valid reasons for why we, and those like us, made the decisions that we did.

Second, I think only 1 scum is the most that is likely to be on the Who wagon. Scum are going to try to distance themselves from this one and use it as a means to mislynch town. We need to be looking at who is trying to do so.

That brings me to Scorp. He's doing exactly that, focusing exclusively on the Who wagon and tunneling hard in the hopes that town doesn't consider any other avenues. It's during this push that he's made some mistakes, slipping away from that town veneer that he's built up. The contradictory stances are a big one. Plus, Eek is right, he is flailing and mindlessly pushing in the way where he's trying to make everything from his targets look scummy without actually considering intent. This shows that he's more interested in scoring a lynch than finding scum. However, the biggest point against him is his blatant buddying of Bro. He's taken every opportunity he can to stroke Bro's ego and get on his good side. Which is funny, since Scorp wasn't paying attention to anything that Bro was saying when he was pushing the Who wagon. Yet all of a sudden he's regurgitating Bro's points of view and using them to try to lynch others on the Who wagon?

Des why are you lurking?

Because it's Eek and Tier (and Trine if Who's role means we started 6-3) and my work here is done.

This is lazy, generic and not what I'd expect of you. Heck, you just quoted Bro's list right back at him.

Eek and Trine were both giving TierShift heat for the hammer on Who.

Where were we giving Tier heat for hammering Who? All Zoya did was ask him about the motivation for his unvote and vote. I wouldn't call that giving him heat. Why do you?

Unvote

Vote XScorpion

-Amadeus

[Trine]

What I think should be done is that we all flavor claim.

Forgot about this one. Why do you suggest everyone flavor claim, yet then not flavor claim?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

The point I'm making is that there wasn't town motivation towards the tail-end of the Who push.

In the case of Trine, our motivation is necessarily town. Your disagreeing with our thought processes doesn't change that.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

In the case of Trine, our motivation is necessarily town. Your disagreeing with our thought processes doesn't change that.

~ Zoya

Your lack of incorporation of Theory of Mind here is disconcerting.

Most of my philosophical influences have German roots.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

To Eek/Trine/Tier:

If XScorp is scum, who is the buddy?

I am not at all convinced that XScorp is scum. Amadeus feels that if there is one scum on the Who wagon that scum is XScorp due to PoE. I think we're looking in the wrong places tbh.

UNVOTE

Amadeus and I have talked about this, and will talk and reread some more. Pontius is out of pocket for now.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

To Eek/Trine/Tier:

If XScorp is scum, who is the buddy?

I am not at all convinced that XScorp is scum. Amadeus feels that if there is one scum on the Who wagon that scum is XScorp due to PoE. I think we're looking in the wrong places tbh.

UNVOTE

Amadeus and I have talked about this, and will talk and reread some more. Pontius is out of pocket for now.

~ Zoya

Why only 1 scum on who wagon?

Because we have too many townreads on that wagon for there to be more than 1. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't be surprised if there are no scum on the wagon. XSCorp claims that he wasn't around between Who's claim and the hammer in order to unvote, but would have if he'd been online.

That's the sort of claim that could easily be a lie, but his posts earlier in the game won a strong town read from me. The conviction of the other players on the wagon resonates for me because I shared it.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Because I know my own motivations. You're right though, that similar behaviors don't always indicate similar motivations in a single instance. Motivations are revealed post by post, usually.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

This is lazy, generic and not what I'd expect of you. Heck, you just quoted Bro's list right back at him.

Actually, Bro quoted my list back at me.

You're right. You copied Scorp. My bad.

1) Lynching the powerful town PR seems like pretty scummy intent, considering the proposed day 2 PL alternative.

This is a U-Pick game, which means that everybody is a PR of some sort. Part of our job, then, is to figure out which claims are real and which are false, and Who's claim seemed fake as crap.

2) I don't need to buddy anyone; it's a simple matter of 'this is the best move so let's do it', and the people who didn't do it are all voting me. Coincidence? I don't think so.

There is not a conspiracy against you, but keep AtEing it up and maybe enough people will think you are town.

I'm a big fan of making the best decision, no matter who proposed it to begin with (which is why Eek is scum). Good try though.

How does the above (especially the "best decision" part) make Eek scum?

There is no pro-town benefit to a flavor claim day 1. This is a scum plan.

I don't see the scum benefit either. If anything, it's null and is just flavor.

Would not be surprised if scum have mod-given fakeclaims already anyway, which further suggests the scum intent behind a flavor claim.

It's a U-Pick. There are no mod provided fake claims.

Is there more to the case than just "He's buddying BROseidon" at this point?

Did you read anything I wrote?

Second, I think only 1 scum is the most that is likely to be on the Who wagon. Scum are going to try to distance themselves from this one and use it as a means to mislynch town. We need to be looking at who is trying to do so.

That brings me to Scorp. He's doing exactly that, focusing exclusively on the Who wagon and tunneling hard in the hopes that town doesn't consider any other avenues. It's during this push that he's made some mistakes, slipping away from that town veneer that he's built up. The contradictory stances are a big one. Plus, Eek is right, he is flailing and mindlessly pushing in the way where he's trying to make everything from his targets look scummy without actually considering intent. This shows that he's more interested in scoring a lynch than finding scum. However, the biggest point against him is his blatant buddying of Bro. He's taken every opportunity he can to stroke Bro's ego and get on his good side. Which is funny, since Scorp wasn't paying attention to anything that Bro was saying when he was pushing the Who wagon. Yet all of a sudden he's regurgitating Bro's points of view and using them to try to lynch others on the Who wagon?

And it's not as bad as the Who wagon going through.

You're looking in the wrong place on the Who wagon, though. Scum would not push that hard. Town would. Scum would have either quietly sat on the wagon and let town do the heavy lifting, or they would have jumped off the wagon after the claim.

To Eek/Trine/Tier:

If XScorp is scum, who is the buddy?

To be honest, I've been working off of PoE this game, so I haven't really considered associations. Given that, Desperado is the scum off the Who wagon, and if Scorp is not the scum on the Who wagon, then it's TV. I'll probably talk with the other heads about this later tonight, after a flip.

Why only 1 scum on who wagon?

Because both scum are not going to be on a mislynch at the same time. One would push it, while the other stays off it for the towncred.

The conviction of the other players on the wagon resonates for me because I shared it.

Your conviction contributed to the scum wincon. Why are you townreading people for sharing it???

The way you phrased this question seems a bit strong for what you're asking and also seems to be leading.

Eek/Tier wagons should compromise on one of those two IMO.

Both are town. Scum were not hard pushing the Who wagon, especially since they would know that was a Town PR claim. Scum would play it safe. Town would not, since they are blind. This current mode of thought is a red herring. You need to look elsewhere.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I outright disagree with you about how scum would interact with the Who wagon. Like, if I were scum, I would push it super hard after the weak visitor claim b/c the synergy there is obvious.

Bro, you're not thinking about this correctly. Scum do not care about your role. It's easily manipulated. What they would be looking at is the risk/reward of pushing the Who wagon after the claim. Keep in mind, scum would know Who is town and that the claim is legit, and since Who can immediately bring himself back if he chooses, they would know that pushing his wagon hard after the claim carries a high risk/low reward, as anybody pushing that wagon is going to be looked at after Who comes back. It makes no sense, then, from a scum perspective to push the wagon that hard. You are looking at this wrong. The scum on the wagon were either staying in the background, or they hopped off the wagon after the claim.

Amadeus, with the massive advantage town would get from me living, scum would push it as hard as possible.

And sacrifice themselves doing so when there are town who will do it for them? Why would they do such a thing? It would be much better to leave you alone and take care of you at a more convenient time.

Not going with the most pro-town plan is scummy, especially when the opposite choice involves lynching a powerful town PR. Do you disagree?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we had no way of knowing if Who's claim was legit or not at the time, and sometimes town does not make the most beneficial moves from a theory perspective. After all, the thought was that Who's role was too powerful to be real, and when you feel you've found scum, you're going to have your blinders on and hammer that point home. So no, not going with the most pro-town plan is not scummy, it is actually very human and more likely to come from town, since they are going to be more volatile in their scumhunting, whereas scum are calmer and thinking from a more strategic point of view.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

How was it high risk/low reward?

High risk: By pushing Who that hard, and given that they would know Who is town and thus know his claim was legit by extension, they would guarantee that they would most likely be lynched when Who brought himself back.

Low reward: Who

is

going to bring himself back, which they know by the very fact of him being town and therefore not lying about his role. In essence, they gain nothing, since Who is still alive. Sure, it's 1 conf. town vs. 3 at most (Although you're discounting all the possible variations that could happen, chaos theory and all.), but it's a risk not worth taking, especially since I'm sure that scum have ways to take care of such issues and that they can use the WIFOM to their advantage. For example, they could keep Who alive and kill Bro during the night. Town goes nuts and mislynches whoever Bro was on (assuming that person was town), and now scum have turned Who's ability to their advantage and can keep him alive for a little longer, since he's a useless innocent.

In essence, scum would gain more from keeping Who alive and manipulating events than risking hard pushing him and putting themselves on the chopping block. If scum did remain on the wagon after the claim, they would not be the ones pushing as hard. They'd be quiet and let town do their work for them, because town tends to be blind and do stuff like that.

How do you know Eel and Tier are town, and that they weren't simply the scumteam making sure Who didn't survive?

Because their actions don't make sense coming from a scum PoV.

I'm using Occam's Razor here.

So am I, only I have over 20 games worth of experience helping me in making such observations.

I simply don't agree that town are more likely to not follow the most pro-town plan. Take that as you will.

Then you are underestimating the capacity of town to not make the optimal decision.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Except that if bro is the only person who dies then we can't confirm that Bro's target is scum.

Since I was using the example of Bro dying during the hypothetical time reset of Who, I'm pretty sure we'd know who Bro targeted.

Also, how do you know for sure Bro is town?

I don't. I just don't think he's likely to be scum. Btw, I hate it when players do the "how do you know for sure X is town" bit, because it's a cheap way to drum up suspicion on a player, especially in a game where players will speak in absolutes in regards to their reads.

What's with you three and trying to say Bro's plan wasn't correct?

I never said that. I said that the current line of thought regarding scum on the Who wagon is incorrect.

Re: 20 games - please don't be condescending; your opinion is not more valid than anyone else's.

My point is that I have experience that has shaped my understanding of what scum will and will not do, and I'm telling you that pushing the Who wagon that hard after a claim is an inopportune scum move.

Trine has just been rambling all sorts of mumbo-jumbo in his last posts that is obviously incorrect.

Explain how it's incorrect, and don't just join the current mass opinion.

Trine, town is stupid, yes, but we're not morons and we can deduce stuff after a who NK+rewind.

I'm not saying that you can't. I'm saying that prior to that rewind, town was not more likely to make the most opportune move.

You are trying to clear yourself by saying scum wouldn't push for a such wagon while they obviously should if they don't want up to 3 conftown. (Hint: they don't)

First, I'm not trying to clear ourselves, since I think our position has been clear. I'm saying that the current line of thought regarding the Who wagon is incorrect and is a red herring. Scum are more likely to have jumped off the wagon after the claim or stayed on the wagon and not push very hard. The current push to lynch those who were strongly for a Who lynch is more likely to end in a mislynch than examining the wagon as a whole, not only who was on it, but also who left after the claim and who stayed off it.

Second, the 3 conf. town bit is wishful thinking assuming the most opportune sequence of events would have happened for town. You are not considering the possibility of a d1 scum lynch, kills being blocked during the night, scum using the role to their advantage, or Who being killed n1. Not to mention that this advocacy of "We shouldn't have tried to lynch such a strong PR." is bull crap in a game full of PRs. PRs mean nothing in this game.

A scorp lynch isn't happening today, so:
UNVOTE: scorp
VOTE: trine

Why are you so quick to jump to that conclusion, especially since your movement changed the momentum of the wagons, from Scorp being at L-3 to us being at L-3? In other words, why so quick to shore up your vote when both wagons would be the same size with you on them?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I never said that. I said that the current line of thought regarding scum on the Who wagon is incorrect.

This appears to be the essential argument you are making--Bro was correct, but the people who argued vehemently against him aren't scummy because they're human and humans make emotional mistakes.

The way you are just poopooing the very real reasons why scum had every incentive to push Who's lynch using the above argument is so beyond the pale. The decision to let Who live was

obvious

and if your only counterargument is that you and Eek and Tier momentarily blacked out and were emotionally incapable of making a logical decision then...tough shit.

Lynching Who

only helped the scum win condition

. Any attempt to turn it around and call people town for helping it through is foolhardy at best.

PS prodding people on christmas is fucking bonkers

The effect was antitown because who's role actually exists. The thought process was town.

I note with amusement that TierShift has argued against the scenario whereby he, himself is town and did a town-motivated though in retrospect antitown thing. Should we be lynched, which I seriously doubt, our flip will probably result in his lynch being next up. And if he is town, that second lynch on the back of an incorrect decision about Who's claim will probably put town in LYLO on Day 3.

I still strongly approve of a Turkish Van lynch.

VOTE: Turkish Van

My colleagues are free to disagree and move it elsewhere, but I would prefer to hunt scum off the Who wagon for now.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

What I'm saying is that this situation is superior for scum, even though they would need to leave their low profile status. You're saying it isn't.
I was arguing that if one does

not

know who's alignment (as is when one is town), it might be superior to lynch him.
That's not the same.

What Amadeus is saying (and I agree with him) is that the situation is superior for scum, but scum did not necessarily have to do anything actively to bring the situation into effect.

Amadeus believes that there is one scum on the Who wagon, so he is assuming that scum did take a hand in the lynch.

I'm not convinced of it, mostly because my reads of the players who were on the wagon were town. And because my own tendencies as scum would have been to let town drive that particular wagon rather than risk being on it once the repercussions hit the fan.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

@Mod our vote is on Turkish Van

BROseidon maybe you can tell me if this is typical of town PA. She has not really acknowledged my suspicions of her, and hasn't attempted to persuade me off my suspicions, and this pattern holds from before the Who wagon formed. It's like she's ignoring the suspicions altogether because they apparently have no teeth.

[Trine]

You were at L-2.

Also, Happy Scumday!

[Trine]

Ah, you're right.

Why do you think Tier is scum?

[Trine]

Tier why do you think random quotes from QTs are OP?

[Trine]

With Grimgroove's slot absent and BRO on V/LA

and Trine quite determined that their logic is the only possible town logic

, I guess hammer intent falls to us.

Desperado's case is good, and bottom line is I can't buy scum wouldn't have wanted to eliminate the chance of Who's power being legit ASAP.

MME flat-out refusing to claim is awful, but at least it locks him in somewhat.

I want to get Mala's take, but consider this this head's intent to hammer within 12 hours.

--PA

This post is quite terrible. We have not intimated that our logic is the only possible town logic, else we would be scumreading Desperado and Grimgroove. We are not.

I'm considering Desp's case on Tier, but will want to discuss with my compatriots.

I would strongly prefer that you not put a 12 hour timer on your hammer-vote.

I note with interest though, that you're apparently townreading us per the bolded.

[Trine]

The above is ~ Zoya

[Trine]

I object to that characterization as well.

[Trine]

If we have a protective role, choose between Who or BRO tonight.

Good hunting tonight.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

OK counting apparently isn't my strong suit.

I'd like to get Trine's take on TS before the day ends here.

--PA

I would vote him if necessary-to prevent no-lynch, but with little conviction. He is more likely scum than Eek, but not by much.

[Trine]

OK counting apparently isn't my strong suit.

I'd like to get Trine's take on TS before the day ends here.

--PA

I would vote him if necessary-to prevent no-lynch, but with little conviction. He is more likely scum than Eek, but not by much.

[Trine]

I am here and will vote within the hour if Turkish Van doesn't follow through on their intent to hammer.

BRO, my mind would be considerably put at ease if you were to visit TV tonight.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Does anyone know who the princess is?

Does the princess even exist?

@Princess
WHO ARE YOU?

What is this about?

[Trine]

Okay, got my result.

Either Trine is ascetic or scum have some sort of RB in play.

We are not ascetic. There are other possibilities, but the night kill choice does suggest scum have an RB.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

I can think of a role that makes sense of the mod PM about XScorp.

XScorp why did you choose Eek?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Also, BRO is town to me. His result makes perfect sense given our role and night action. As scum, he couldn't have anticipated that.

There's a slight chance that he's scum and faked a roleblock result but if he was going to fake something, that seems like a strange thing to fake.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

I can think of a role that makes sense of the mod PM about XScorp.

XScorp why did you choose Eek?

~ Zoya

I chose the person I thought least likely to die.

Friendly Neighbor.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

But you didn't factor in whether you thought the player was town or scum?

[Trine]

The means by which this game can possibly be balanced intrigues me.

[Trine]

Town Win Condition:

You win

when all Anti-Town players

have been eliminated and at least one member of your faction is still alive.

Mafia Win Condition:

You win when all Pro-Town players and

any opposing Anti-Town players

have been eliminated (or nothing can prevent this) and at least one member of your faction is still alive.

There may be additional win conditions in play that are not listed here

.

[Trine]

I'm at L-1, if I counted correctly?


Meh, I don't care anymore really. I've explained my reasons for voting Who, if you can't see a townie making a mistake like that then there's no convincing anyone.

I'm not even claiming as my role is most likely useless because of a certain wording in the pm that the mod won't elaborate on

, I'm going to assume it's the worst case of the two interpretations for balancing reasons. Not to mention the horrible character flavor. Whoever picked my game is an idiot. The game only has one character and it's an evil one. Dumbass.

But go ahead, call this an AtE, I don't care anymore. I'm done defending myself against people lacking basic empathic skills. It's no use.


I was going to catch up, but I can't be bothered at this point. It's not as if anyone would be reading it after my flip anyway.

scum is:
scorp

possible scum:
tv, desp (although I liked his interrogation of me, but that's the only thing I'm liking from what I can remember)

def. town:
who, trine, bro


I'm not sure anymore where I stand on tier, I skimmed the previous pages and I don't really like what I've seen/remember, but whatever.

And whoever I'm forgetting: you might be scum too. Your name didn't stick without rereading and I'm always weary of people keeping low profiles after so much shit happening.

Why did you think your role was likely to be useless?

[Trine]

All of the day 2 posts so far have been me. I'll try to do better at signing.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Someone please unvote. We have a lot to sort out here.

Eek, we still think you are town but we are concerned that either there could be a scum framer, or that the insanifying aspect of your role is self-insanity - i.e., that you get a valid track result and also get a "tracked to the corpse" result.

Flavor claims could help in sifting through some of this. Not full role claims, just our games and characters.

We're happy to go first if there's consensus.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Scorp, what is the flavor justification for your ability?

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Brace yourselves.

We are Amadeus, Zoya and Pontius from Trine.

Popcorn to Turkish Van.

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Trine really is.

Scorp, I was just curious about the justification to make Binding of Isaac a friendly neighbor. The role doesn't seem to fit with the game.

[Trine]

-Amadeus

[Trine]

I don't want you to quote it. I want you to paraphrase it.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Current Status:

Alignments have randomly been determined

. Roles are now being created and should be done sometime on the 27th.

I don't think Slenderman being a bad guy in the game has anything to do with Eek's alignment.

Slenderman is not a character we expected if the mechanic is actually that Eek's results aren't sane.

And if he makes his target insane, then why did ETL get back a valid result on XScorp?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Current Status:

Alignments have randomly been determined

. Roles are now being created and should be done sometime on the 27th.

I don't think Slenderman being a bad guy in the game has anything to do with Eek's alignment.

Slenderman is not a character we expected if the mechanic is actually that Eek's results aren't sane.

And if he makes his target insane, then why did ETL get back a valid result on XScorp?

~ Zoya

Ah, but alignments come before roles and we gave 3 games. As a mod if I randomly determined MME was town and had to give a role, I think I'd go for the second game choice if slender was pick #1.

I don't think that's how uPicks usually work?

~ Zoya

[Trine]

Ah, but alignments come before roles and we gave 3 games. As a mod if I randomly determined MME was town and had to give a role, I think I'd go for the second game choice if slender was pick #1.

The only reason we had to pick multiple games was in case our first choice was already taken. Eek's claim makes sense. Definitely more than yours does.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

No.

[Trine]

So I got yelled at by the other two heads to come play. So somebody tell me who is scum and why. I see we have conflicitng night claims?

Oh and bro. You around bro? I need to tell you something without telling the others so it's time to use our top secrit crumbing style.

[Trine]

Oh and penguin continues to play a very lurktastical lazy game. Mala at least has an excuse.

[Trine]

Well given my cabdness leaked like 20 pages ago, if you're town you need to engage us. Because you're in the lower end of my reads spectrum right now.

[Trine]

Trine - refuse to claim?

I don't mind claiming once this is all sorted out. The other heads may disagree.

[Trine]

We were gone last night. As in drove to san fran from LA one helluva commute gone.

We have a few other abilities in our JOAT repretoir, and I don't plan on revealing what they are.

We dropped fake doctor tells at the tail end of day one in an attempt to get shot at last night. We were hoping bro would visit elsewhere but eh, what the hell.

Penguin-mala thingie needs to claim too.

And given he was notified of our roadtrip, Bro is all but confirmed town to us.

[Trine]

Of note, scum fruit vendor is a thing, there's no reason to assume that flavor cop evenif useless, is a town aligned power. My just finished setup gave scum a gender cop fakeclaim and it worked just fine.

[Trine]

1. Jade Curtiss, Town Aligned Necromancer Deacon Blues

2. Van Grants, Godfather 2-shot Rolecop The Ruffling

3. Fon Master Ion, Town Aligned 1-shot Motivator Prohawk
4. Emperor Peony, Town Aligned Title Vendor Tammy
5. York, Town Aligned Miller Neighbor Nacho
6. Noir, Town Aligned Neighbor TheFuzzylogic99
7. Nephry Osborne, Town Aligned Vanilla Mykonian (mara)
8. Natalia, Town Aligned Unrequited Lover (conditional IC) Kazekirimaru

9. Legnretta, Bulletproof 1-shot roleblocker Minami no Hana

10. Luke Fon Fabre, Town Aligned Suicide Bomber Orcinus
11. Anise Talin, Town Aligned 1-shot Bulletproof Bodyguard MafiaSSK
12. Mieu, Town Aligned Cowardly JOAT Pitoli

13. Sync, Encryptor Neighbor Mac

Necromancer had a one-shot neighborize of a dead player.
Cowardly JOAT was 1-shot hider use, 1-shot commuter use.
Kaze died if orci was nightkilled and became an inno child if orci was lynched or suicide.
Title Vendor gave the player targeted a random title from the game, if they were a party character, or a fitting mod-created title if they did not have any official ingame one. It would title players with their fakeclaims if it hit scum.

Of note. The godfather had gender cop.

[Trine]

If you're still not convinced of its uselessness, tell me what roles would go with what rolenames, start with Scorp's role please.

I'm not nearly aware of indie games as the other head, if you actually care I'll have him run through the paces.

[Trine]

I was making a point that assuming a role can't be a scum role because of it's usefulness or lack thereof is a logical error.

[Trine]

So two JOAT?

Just to get this right.

One per each of our three characters. Have you forgotten that this is a role madness game? There's just as likely to be 2 JOATs as there is to be 0 JOATS.

[Trine]

And to ETL: A fruit vendor sends fruit at night to a target, and that targets gets a pm saying "you got fruit". It's used to confirm oneself as town when there's only one scum remaining by using a night action while a kill still happens. Because of site meta making it a town only role, several mods made scum fruit vendors to subvert that.

[Trine]

No, bro is the fruit vendor here; with a weak modifier, if I have everything down right. Once TV claims I'm going to draw up a chart of all the claims and night actions.

[Trine]

And to ETL: A fruit vendor sends fruit at night to a target, and that targets gets a pm saying "you got fruit". It's used to confirm oneself as town when there's only one scum remaining by using a night action while a kill still happens. Because of site meta making it a town only role, several mods made scum fruit vendors to subvert that.

This was a general history of fruit vendors statement, not a "Bro is scum" statement.

[Trine]

You asked what a fruit vendor is. I answered it.

Vote Count 2.05

EspeciallyTheLies (1) - BROseidon

Not Voting (6) - Trine, Who, Turkish Van, XScorpion, EspeciallyTheLies, My Milked Eek

7 alive, 4 to lynch.

The deadline is on January 10th, 9:00 P.M. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2014-01-10 21:00:00)

[Trine]

You're not undermeaning what I stood.

Two seperate thoughts here.

"No role is town merely for being that role save things like Inno Child, Mason, etc"

"Bro is town for knowing we commuted"

[Trine]

Eek, I was the head that was originally not convinced about Scorp's claim, just because I've played The Binding of Isaac, and I couldn't see Friendly Neighbor coming from that game. However, like the Who flip, I'm not going to assume bastard moderation in order to hold to that read. We've been assured going in that this game is not bastard, and the mod lying to you would fall under that claim, which makes Scorp conf. town.

I've personally been going back and forth on what I thought about the ETL track, and given all the information, I think you caught scum and that the results were not tampered with. This is reminding me too much of my track of Baltimorons in Fire Emblem: Awakening. As for your point about the flavor cop, keep in mind that

ETL claimed JOAT

, and that flavor cop was only

1

of her abilities. Flavor cop could be very useful for scum to isolate what might be in the game, especially if scum were knowledgeable about the indie games that they investigated (and even then, there exists a thing called wikipedia). I think it would make sense from a modding perspective to give both teams a JOAT in order to balance things out, especially since the scum JOAT would have more shots and more varied abilities.

Vote EspeciallyTheLies

-Amadeus

[Trine]

Uh actually we kinda started the massclaim? You know.... when I was like "hey fuckers shut up and mass flavor claim"

[Trine]

@ETL: We never said any of that. And I was personally against full claiming, but the other heads saw differently. Nice misrep, though.

-Amadeus

[Trine]

How does starting a massclaim make you not-scum?

add to that your resistance to claiming until you've had time to process the other claims, i just don't see the above coming from town.

Change the goalposts much?

[Trine]

...Holy fuck this is basic mafia theory ETL. You know better than this. If you have role results on living town, or have something left in reserve scum SHOULDNT KNOW ABOUT you wait until the tail end of massclaim so that you only have to out your other powers if a scumfuck claims it, to CC them.

[Trine]

...Holy fuck this is basic mafia theory ETL. You know better than this. If you have role results on living town,

or have something left in reserve scum SHOULDNT KNOW ABOUT

you wait until the tail end of massclaim so that you only have to out your other powers if a scumfuck claims it, to CC them.

[Trine]

And capslock, despite you thinking it might be, is not cruise control for cool.

[Trine]

AND YOU THINK RUNNING ME UP IS ANY BETTER??? Bullshit.

I'm gonna let her explain this one, actually. Bulba, step back and let her do her work. I'll even let you have an unvote until she presents her logic.

UNVOTE:

[Trine]

Listen up fuckers this is now a 1 v 1

A vote on anyone but ETL or Trine is a scumclaim.

Our other shots are doctor and RB. Tell me we have three fucking protective roles given flipepd town. Go on, try.


VOTE: ETL

[Trine]

Bodyguard; Doctor; Jaikeep. No way all three of those are town. If we lynch ETL today good job scum flips. If not, well hey, your first scum lynch in lylo is set; and we'll cheer from the dead QT.

[Trine]

If we have a protective role, choose between Who or BRO tonight.

Good hunting tonight.

~ Zoya

^Big fat doctor tell we put in there to get shot at^

Vote Count 2.06

EspeciallyTheLies (2) - BROseidon, Trine
Trine (1) - EspeciallyTheLies

Not Voting (4) - Who, Turkish Van, XScorpion, My Milked Eek

7 alive, 4 to lynch.

The deadline is on January 10th, 9:00 P.M. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2014-01-10 21:00:00)

[Trine]

Damn straight. I know basic night action theory is apparently beyond your reach; but softing doc and then commuting to get the nightkill targeted at you? It's basic fucking theory for a commuter role.

[Trine]

Come on now. You must really think I'm dumb.

Well yes but that's not the topic at hand now is it?

[Trine]

I seriously doubt your abilities are what you say.

And thank you kindly for associating yourself so thoroughly with TV. Grimgroove did a good job of keeping his distance when he was in the slot.

As far a balance? I gave up figuring that out when Who flipped.

[Trine]

So, ETL performed 2 night actions on night 1.

Claims actions that are duplicated by other roles

And in her first "lynch me then go after X, and Y" picked out the two players whose actions weren't fully known.

Ironic.

More votes, please. Choose one of us. Don't be shy.

[Trine]

TV I would like your thoughts about the duplication of abilities.

[Trine]

It makes perfect sense. And you are not nearly so obtuse a player as town.

[Trine]

Trine, why did you dodge BRO last night?

And why didn't you use doctor on Bro?

We checked with the mod. If we protected him, then his visit wouldn't kill him no matter who he visited. That could have resulted in a false "clear" if he decided to visit someone who was actually scum.

[Trine]

nice. calling me dumb to discredit me?

EAT. ROPE. SCUM.

On the contrary. We are complimenting your town game. This isn't your town game.

[Trine]

And why didn't you use doctor on Bro?

We had already left the doc tell.

Our plans for the night were in place long before Who's flip and we had to go with what made the most sense, and would preserve our abilities for another night.

[Trine]

Trine, why did you dodge BRO last night?

And why didn't you use doctor on Bro?

We checked with the mod. If we protected him, then his visit wouldn't kill him no matter who he visited. That could have resulted in a false "clear" if he decided to visit someone who was actually scum.

You knew he was visiting you though. Everyone knew.

We hoped the doc warn off would save him. It did. We thought we would be targeted for the kill because otherwise today we'd potentially have been another confirmed town.

[Trine]

We put the doc protect target on BOTH confirmed town so scum would consider targeting in the other town players.

It worked.

[Trine]

And TV does another fade in the midst of the sturm und drang. Color me surprised.

[Trine]

We put the doc protect target on BOTH confirmed town so scum would consider targeting in the other town players.

It worked.

What
I'm confused

We said Doc should protect BRO or WHO, to plant the idea that we'd (or someone) should flip a coin, as well as to draw the kill our way.

We played it to hopefully shield 3 players between uncertainty about who would be protected as well as our own commute.

It worked. Neither Who nor BRO were protected.

Whoever is ultimately lynched, the two protect roles need to be on those two and town should decide who guards which.

Then if one dies tonight it's a scum claim on the part of the player who should have protected them.

[Trine]

^ Neither Who nor BRO were protected and neither died.

ETL why did you choose to use your flavor cop last night rather than protect confirmed town yourself?

Our rationale is here to be judged. What was yours?

[Trine]

We put the doc protect target on BOTH confirmed town so scum would consider targeting in the other town players.

It worked.

What
I'm confused

We said Doc should protect BRO or WHO, to plant the idea that we'd (or someone) should flip a coin, as well as to draw the kill our way.

We played it to hopefully shield 3 players between uncertainty about who would be protected as well as our own commute.

It worked. Neither Who nor BRO were protected.

Whoever is ultimately lynched, the two protect roles need to be on those two and town should decide who guards which.

Then if one dies tonight it's a scum claim on the part of the player who should have protected them.

So you're saying scum should kill me then. Thanks a lot.

I forgot about you.

BRO can't die of a scum visit if he's protected.

You're friendly neighbor.

I hate to leave BRO exposed because he's GOOD at adopting mafia theory to the gamestate and town is going to need that.

Push comes to shove, WHO has been utterly worthless as a confirmed town leader.

Yeah.

I'd say protect BRO and you. But, that's ultimately a decision for all of town.

[Trine]

We put the doc protect target on BOTH confirmed town so scum would consider targeting in the other town players.

It worked.

What
I'm confused

We said Doc should protect BRO or WHO, to plant the idea that we'd (or someone) should flip a coin, as well as to draw the kill our way.

We played it to hopefully shield 3 players between uncertainty about who would be protected as well as our own commute.

It worked. Neither Who nor BRO were protected.

Whoever is ultimately lynched, the two protect roles need to be on those two and town should decide who guards which.

Then if one dies tonight it's a scum claim on the part of the player who should have protected them.

So you're saying scum should kill me then. Thanks a lot.

I forgot about you.

BRO can't die of a scum visit if he's protected.

You're friendly neighbor.

I hate to leave BRO exposed because he's GOOD at adopting mafia theory to the gamestate and town is going to need that.

Push comes to shove, WHO has been utterly worthless as a confirmed town leader.

Yeah.

I'd say protect BRO and you. But, that's ultimately a decision for all of town.

[Trine]

Then if one dies tonight it's a scum claim on the part of the player who should have protected them.

This is total bullshit especially since odds are that we have scum who can screw with night actions.

Maybe.

As far as we know, there was no screwing with night actions last night, unless there was some sort of shenanigans to make ETL appear to visit the corpse.

[Trine]

^ Neither Who nor BRO were protected and neither died.

ETL why did you choose to use your flavor cop last night rather than protect confirmed town yourself?

Our rationale is here to be judged. What was yours?

I think you've had enough time to construct a story.

[Trine]

ETL, why aren't you wracking your brains on how to make the cards on the table work for town's benefit tonight? It would be so much more constructive than the occasional MISREP!!! EAT ROPE!!! post.

[Trine]

Trine, MME, piss off. I'm glad that you don't have a crappy tablet with a battery that won't stay charged. Pre-owned certified replacements, my ass.

Last time I played a game with two JOATs, the weak claim was town, and the strong one was scum faking. You happen to have a doc and roleblock, but opted to let BRO be a target, skipping town?

And now you think BRO's so brilliant at Mafia theory but you wouldn't follow his plan on Who?

VOTE: Trine

Thank you for this scum claim.

BRO was absolutely right. I should have listened to him rather than trust my own read. But that's not something I do easily. I'll remember it for future games if I think he's town.

[Trine]

TV why aren't you voting the player who was tracked to Desp's body?

[Trine]

And why aren't you considering how to make your JK and ETL's bodyguard work for town.

Do you disagree with my thoughts?

[Trine]

heh.

Whether we are lynched or not, there is a ton of thought that needs to go into tonight. We obviously can't give scum too much of a roadmap of where and how to dodge town, but some coordination will be good.

Maybe a pool of two players each for BRO and Eek to consider.

I wish I didn't think both the remaining claimed protects other than our own belong to scum. Still, I think assigned protects makes sense as the best way to force to do what hurts town least with their kill.

[Trine]

I'm thinking about it, but I'm not inclined to discuss it with you at present. If you want to leave your opinion to be considered if you flip town, fine, but I don't see that happening.

At this point I'll be advocating to Mala that we protect within {Who, XScorp} even if it does block XScorp's message.

MME, if you know how to make a tablet with a rundown battery work, do share with the class. Otherwise, again, piss off.

Also not voting ETL right now because a) I think Trine's scummier overall, and b) MME conveniently can't explain his role with the insane issue, so I don't trus his claimed result.

I don't often say this as a player, but we are bleeding town in every post.

This is not going to go well for scum even if we are lynched, because YOU are the player we'll call to be lynched with our dying breath.

[Trine]

The JOAT situation must be sorted. Otherwise we'd have our vote on TV.

[Trine]

Might be feasible to to have ETL use the observing mask tonight, given that either Trine flips scum and ETL becomes a target in her own right or, less likely, Trine flips town and if we have two town JOATs, scum won't kill the resulting lynchbait and we at least get info. If EtL is scum, she has to make something up come tomorrow.

She can make her own choice, allowing for the bodyguard option to mess with scum, but I wouldn't take the investigative option off the table.

Trine will absolutely flip town.

You are tomorrow's lynch whether we are lynched or not.

[Trine]

And once again, you are pushing for the JOAT who has a rationale for our choices, and whose fake-tells fits our night action decisions over the JOAT who was tracked to a dead body and hasn't explained why she didn't bodyguard confirmed town.

[Trine]

TV, your choices are going to look horrible when seen in the light of our flip.

This pleases us.

[Trine]

So horrible that you must be scum.

[Trine]

VICTORY

OK, as much fun as this is, since one of the claimed JOAT will be alive, I'll call dibs on protecting Who, since the roleblock part of our role won't hurt him, and the BG/doc can go on XScorp. If BRO and XScorp strongly favor it, we can shift that to me on XScorp and the non-blocking JOAT protect on BRO.

Yes absolutely you should protect the town who's been a worthless lurksack before and after he was confirmed.

Unbelievable.

[Trine]

If anyone can find the tiniest particles of town mindset in TV's posts, please point them out to me.

[Trine]

Empathy? What does empathy have to do with this?

It's not rocket surgery.

If you can't get even a little bit into the head of a player who approaches the game differently from you, has a role that seriously bends what kinds of choices are protown, and numerous other situations, then you have a very narrow band of "town play" you're able to recognize and you're going to vote a lot of town players.

[Trine]

I think he's already answered that, but I'll leave it to him to re-clarify.

I think BRO will be able to address this, but everyone is welcome to. There is no way that we are at LYLO today. What was the scum-benefit to our counterclaiming ETL today, best case?

I'm experiencing some very cold thoughts atm. TV has tied herself so thoroughly to my lynch that she won't escape after town addresses the question of multiple joats no matter which of us is lynched today. This makes me fear that she and ETL can't be partners, unless scum have something quite powerful in their hands that we don't know about.

I also am very curious why TV chose to JK us rather than Who. And if they have a JK ability, which I seriously doubt, then the fact that BRO did not get result indicates that we were JK immune last night, which fits our claim.

I wish they had claimed before all the other night actions had been outed.

It could be so simple as a failure to understand the odds, I guess.

[Trine]

Then the game imbalance is insane.

7 players remain.

My paranoid fear is that the game could have started with 6-2-1 rather than 7-2 and there is a missing death. Ours.

I check under the bed for serial killers every night of every game.

[Trine]

Vote: Turkish Van

It is not too late!

I still feel that sorting the JOAT claims is critical. If it were not for that, I would join you in this vote.

[Trine]

Also if somebody could explain why we'd counterclaim ETL here instead of letting the wagons on the others go through that'd be swell

Me

[Trine]

I believe that wagon and the sentiments that drove it to completion were town.

Bad decisions, but I still believe they were town decisions.

[Trine]

Since it looks like this is decided and you guys are not lynching the JOAT who fucking used a FLAVOR COP (She actually used a rolecop btw in case you haven't figures this shit out yet) over any protective role with no explanation; the plan is this:


Lynch Trine, we flip town.

Lynch ETL, she flips mafia.

Lynch TV, they flip mafia, win

[Trine]

Eek you should put your vote somewhere useful. Like Trine or ETL.

Who/Scorp, leaving it to you to decide who to lynch. I've made my opinion clear. If it's a scum flip, I'm using my ability on TV if ETL is lynched and Eek if Trine is lynched. Townflip means I don't do anything.

If townflip and you die tonight, who do we lynch tomorrow?

If it's a Trine flip, it's a town flip. And these will be confirmed town reads. BRO knows enough about this hydra to know that these reads can be taken to the bank. BRO, I would appreciate it if you back this up. When we flip, our reads go platinum.

Lynch TV and ETL. Order is not that important, but I personally would lynch TV first.

[Trine]

Lol 'dat xpost


Anyways since we're going to be lynched anyways and in case it isn't VERY obvious, this is a Cabd-Bulba-Ffery hydra; so yeah, our reads are about to be confirmed town reads of justice.

[Trine]

Whatever you do, do not let TV slip away.

Have a look at day 7, 8 9 of NY 164 if you need to see just how slippery the PA head of TV can be.

[Trine]

Or like the entire second fucking half of fire emblem awakening.

[Trine]

I mean ffery is probably right that peng is the stronger mafia role, but our townflip confoscums ETL so yeah.

[Trine]

I mean

ffery is probably right that peng is the stronger mafia role

, but our townflip confoscums ETL so yeah.

[Trine]

We know rolecop is one of them, the others don't really matter, though. TV has been the one driving from the rear and is the one not sticking their neck out. It makes sense for them to have something powerful.

Also tiiiiniy paranoia from us on BRO, but mostly because he should know better than this; basic mafia theory says you don't force a 1v1 on a non lylo day when the day is primed for an easier mislynch (which if we're scum one of the two on the chopping block earlier have to have been by definition)