Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[BROseidon]

VOTE: TV

Hi there ^_^

[BROseidon]

I also got my first choice.

We should start a club, or something.

[BROseidon]

VOTE: xScorp

Was that an attempted reach?

[BROseidon]

A what

Reach.

Trying to make something out of nothing.

[BROseidon]

http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 84&t=28498
And yes.

This is a strange derphammer to bring up. It's not like Desp is Saki or something.

I unvoted TV because things were going slowly and I decided to get a wagon going. Then I realized that someone else had voted TV so a wagon was going. TV is currently at L-2.

Why did you feel the need to justify your vote?

Sorry, busy weekend.

The Scorpion and Grimgroove thing looks like town on town to me at the moment.

On a semi OT (but indie game related, so yeah) note: I went and downloaded Surgeon Simulator 2013 today, hoping for a few hours of hilarious fun. I complete the operation on my first go with an A++. *siiiiiigh*

Urge to lynch, rising.

During the previos game I've played with Hermy, she set herself up as lynchbait in the beginning of the game as well. I would like to see her operate without any pressure at all before reaching any conclusions on that slot.

"I'm okay with letting players obfuscate scummy play with meta-level stupidity."

...

Grim, why are you encouraging someone to continue playing badly as town? Even if you're right and Hermy is town setting herself up as an easy mislynch, that is just a distraction--at best.

This is your 2nd post on the same page where you post something right after penguin that supports penguin's post.

VOTE: Desp

And for the record, before this thing starts leading its own life: I never defended Hermy. I simply advocated another approach based on my earlier experiences with her. Just read the game I linked you to earlier you'll see perfectly where I'm coming from. Even that game itself I had resevrations about Baezu because of her lynchbait characteristics, but still went after her in the end after she failed in some reaction tests. And I went after Hermy for not recognizing the fact she was lynchbait as well. Lynchbaits are lynchbaits exactly because they fail reaction tests, regardless of alignment. So how to discern the alignment of lynchbait? Not through reaction tests, but by letting them act on their own accord.

...except you are...

[BROseidon]

How would you rank Des/Hermy/GG in terms of scumminess right now?

Desp>GG>Hermy

[BROseidon]

I can buy that.
VOTE: Who needs to get in the game.
@Who: Why wagon the hydras?

Why are you applying stupid pressure votes when there's better people to pressure.

[BROseidon]

....so? If you were around at that time wouldn't you have been supporting her also? You agree with both of the points that you referenced here.

The perfect lockstep is suspicious as.

[BROseidon]

I don't think my vote is stupid. I don't have any read on Who, so why shouldn't I vote him?
p-edit:nath'd

Do you have two scumreads right now?

[BROseidon]

My point's not valid anymore :/

[BROseidon]

Is he?

BRO, is it fair to say you are not on board with the 'wait-and-see' approach for hermy?

I am as long as I don't think Hermy's scum.

Re Desp: I'm not parroting penguin's opinions in marginally different wording immediately after she does. That's what I mean by "lockstep"

Do you have a theory why Scum-Desperado would shadow TV?

Perception of penguin/mala being strong players, and ones that long-term he'd keep around after getting a cheap townread out of them.

It's what I pulled on Nacho in Xenoblade.

Why is GG scummy? And if GG is scummy is there some reason why we are not? If your read of GG is dependent on his stance re Hermy, then I feel that we should also be somewhere in your list.

Gut+makes more sense w/ Desp scum.

Bro says I'm scum for following Penguin and being in perfect lockstep with her while simultaneously pushing the same agenda we were pushing. IDGI, and normally I do get it when Bro is town.

...um?

Xenogears: metown youscum
Sabotage: mescum youtown
[redacted]

Define "normally"

To be fair here, I only asked BRO to compare these three because 122 seemed to suggest he thought all three were scummy.

Hermy is independently scummy, but Desp+GG makes a lot more sense than Desp+Hermy.

Then my question is even more relevant. Why wasn't I mentioned in post 122?

Given my scumreads, you're implicitly town. Why should I give scum a sense of relative strength of townreads?

[BROseidon]

It's associative and contingent on Desp being scum.

So obviously I'm pushing Desp before anyone else.

[BROseidon]

Re Desp: I'm not parroting penguin's opinions in marginally different wording immediately after she does. That's what I mean by "lockstep"

But you would have been if you were around when I was, right? Because your thoughts DO parrot ours.

And you and I both know I can't define it right now.

1) I wouldn't dedicate a post to it.

2) Point stands: unless you've read a lot of my games, you don't have much range with my gameplay to define how I "normally" behave and how frequently our thoughts aline.

[BROseidon]

Your strongest scum read is based on apparent synch with a perceived strong player. Is there more to the Desperado scumread?

~ Zoya

gut.

I'll figure out what's driving the gut when I'm less tired. Probably tomorrow.

[BROseidon]

It's associative and contingent on Desp being scum.

So obviously I'm pushing Desp before anyone else.

How is Grim connected to Desp?

-Amadeus

Duo-ISO them. They're avoiding each other.

[BROseidon]

Please communicate more directly instead of paraphrasing me (incorrectly) and not making your own stance clear.
Do you think Hermy has shown scummy play here?
I noticed in 151 you're not thinking she's scum. Why is this?
In that same post you agree with the "wait and see"-approach. Yet here you can only bring yourself to make a snappy comment about my proposition of doing exactly that.

Here's the difference:

You're saying that you want to take pressure off her because she does objectively scummy shit as town, then proceeds to continue to be scummy under pressure.

I'm saying that what she did is scummy, but that I'm seeing two other people that are acting more scummy, which would mean that Hermy's town. I'm then moving in accordance to what I think the gamestate is.

[BROseidon]

Could you tell me what the purpose of making such a comment is? I don't see it.

To point out that you're misrepping your own play in an attempt to make it look better.

Sorry not sorry that you can't read through the sarcasm.

[BROseidon]

Implicitly everyone that isn't Desp/GG

If you want relative strength beyond that, I'm not giving that out yet

I need to stop hydra slipping :/

[BROseidon]

In your opinion. Glad to know you're not telling me I'm wrong, just that I don't have enough evidence to support my conclusion.

Oh yes, let me just say "lolno" instead of trying to work you into a corner by pointing out your shitty trajectory.

What makes you think my representation of my own play is a misrep, and yours isn't? Show how my representation doesn't add up instead of making non-sarcastic sarcastic comments that don't lead anywhere but aggravation.

You said you weren't defending Hermy RIGHT AFTER YOU FUCKING TRIED TO DIFFUSE A WAGON ON HER IN A PRETTY SHITTY WAY. HOLY FUCKING SHIT, MY SARCASM WAS LITERALLY SAYING "THIS STATEMENT YOU'VE MADE ABOUT YOURSELF IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU DID."

PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE SCUM AND NOT JUST AN IDIOT. PLEASE.

A quick skim of ISO's has revealed you have said nothing about or to Who, and Who has said nothing about and to you.
Does this mean you are avoiding Who?

Yes. If one of us flips scum, it makes for a decent associative case on the other.

Your arguments are really all over the place. I'm now faced with a paradox: last time we played together you left a much bigger town-impression on me, but you ended up being scum. What to make of you now, seeing you grasp at straws like the above? Further interactions will be needed.

It's not a paradox if you think about town interests vs. scum interests... I guess that's too hard, though...

Hi guys!

I've been doing some catching up and I think I'm good now, feel free to notify me of anything I've missed.

A what

Reach.

Trying to make something out of nothing.

I find it weird that you accuse other people of reaching, because it seems, that you've been doing the same, in particular in posts 122 and 167. Your trying to connect desp and gg is quite unfounded.

VOTE: BROseidon

Desp gives me scummy vibes too, but I can't exactly point out why.

Wow.

Um.

I'd be down to wagon the fuck out of this shit. In fact:

VOTE: TierShift

The lazy case on me+blatantly ignoring any sort of associative tells is bafflingly scummy.

[BROseidon]

Overview of BRO's post:

'Loses tenper'/

writes in caps to seem all towny.
Uses a sarcastic-y insult.

*facepalm*

If you're scum, I'm yelling at you so much for trying to use my emotions against me.

It'll be glorious.

I'm a weak visitor you dumbfucks. Way to make your investigative PR claim on a shitty wagon.

[BROseidon]

in b4 nobody knows what my role is because this game is apparently full of ~geniuses~

[BROseidon]

Unvote

I wish you had waited a little bit. I was in the process of beating up a partner about scumreading you.

~ Zoya

I think I know who you are...

Stop posturing like a big bad-ass mofo for a minute and answer my question.
The way I see it we are both looking at the same thing, say, milk, and you insist it comes from a cow and I insist it comes from a goat. What I want to know is that given you're just looking at the milk, how you can be so adamant about it coming from a cow.
In other words: WHY?
You say I tried to diffuse a wagon in a pretty shitty way, I say my primary intention was not to diffuse it but to provide it with context. You insisting your perspective on what I did while mine is at least equally reasonable is problematic because you can't say why my perspective is wrong. You simply repeatedly disagreed with it and thens tarted shouting for emphasis.

Except your metaphor falls short because here was the sequence of events:

People: Hermy is scummy
You: Hermy is lynchbait and

acts more scummy when put under pressure, so we shouldn't pressure her.

People: Why are you trying to diffuse the wagon?
You: I'm not trying to diffuse the wagon.
Me: See sentence 2 of this dialogue. Yes you are.

You can say you were trying to "provide context" all you want, but implicit in how you presented that context was the bolded part above where you indicated that you'd rather not see a wagon on her, as can be seen here:

I would like to see her operate without any pressure at all before reaching any conclusions on that slot.

So stop lying.

It's too hard because I only know you from one game. Some people tend to play around with their playstyle. You might as well be scum in a worse mood than when I saw you as scum before.

So you're either scum or an idiot who doesn't understand why scum want to build town-equity more than townies do.

Got it.

Weak visitors are only useful when they can hint at who they'll visit without scum catching on. If he's speaking the truth, he rendered himself completely useless.

False.

I can still say who I'm targeting, and the best scum can do is shoot me to obfuscate the alignment of my target. You're thinking of Hider.

He threw his PR in the garbage

and I don't see town-BROseidon do that, because I'd like to think he's smarter than that. This is a tactical move and the fact he packs it in a ball of emotions makes my more convinced it's a scummy one.

False, see above

1. He wasn't forced to claim, there wasn't even an intent to hammer.
2. Weak visitor is much weaker (pun not intended) when claimed, if he actually had that role he would have been holding back with claiming it until the last possible moment.
3. If you look at past roles in these Upick games, linked here for your convenience, weak visitor isn't a likely role to be included (this point is debatable though).
4. Easy to claim for scum, isn't it?

1) Hermy would derp-hammer before a claim.
2) Still false. I'm still not a hider.
3) Bad argument is bad.
4) It'd be a shittier cop claim if I were scum.

Bro, what game are you?

Gone Home. I'm also not the game, but the protagonist of the game. Your head that knows me well might have been able to have guessed this

1) Considering the fact that so many people think BRO is scummy I'm not really surprised even if there wasn't an intent to hammer. GG has spent so much time trying to defend Hermy (it is defending no matter what he says) that I would not be surprised if there was a Hermy-hammer set up to finish BRO off before he could claim. If not for Trine unvoting he could easily be dead now.
2) Actually I think the idea of 'hinting' at who they are going to target is basically useless and full of WIFOM. The weak visitor's best use is to confirm people as town, not identify scum. You can do this whether you claim or not. There is also the possibility that he isn't a weak visitor and is actually a hider, in which case his claim makes more sense.
3) My role isn't included either so your point is null and void.
4) So are other roles, what's your point?

XScorp wins the basic intelligence award.

XScorpion, how are you planning to get a read on Hermy, given what you know of her?

I can give you two easy ways:

1) We lynch her.

2) I target her N1.

Hermy is the person most likely to get away with a hammer and not immediately die the next day because both you and her would make excuses saying that 'oh it's because she's lynch-bait' etc. etc.

So much of this.

Scum is GG+Tier/Hermy, hard to say which because both of them are acting scummy, but only one of them can be because stupid.

[BROseidon]

I always claim before intent to hammer because I don't trust 2/3 of people on this site.

Penguin and I just got out of a game with Hermy where she was being a complete derp and was scum. I have no experience with her towngame (although apparently she did once self-vote in LyLo as town)

[BROseidon]

Also:

VOTE: Grim

[BROseidon]

1<–crumbed a setup-specific aspect of my role with like 3 votes on my wagon
2<–claimed at L-2
3<–Did a similar thing as in 1

[BROseidon]

BROseidon,

Have Hermy/GG/Tier all three exceeded Desperado in scummyness? Or have you decided Desperado is town by some other reasoning?

The former.

[BROseidon]

BROseidon,

Have Hermy/GG/Tier all three exceeded Desperado in scummyness? Or have you decided Desperado is town by some other reasoning?

The former.

Hi. Talk

dirty

reads to me.

~Pontius

Like, full list, or do you have specific ones in mind?

[BROseidon]

Sounds good.

I shouldn't have to go over why XScorp is town because it's obvious as shit. There's some stuff I want to keep obfuscated in there because ~reasons~

TV has generally posted good content that makes sense from a town-perspective. Also, I'd have expected penguin to push me by now if she were scum; she knows she can out-argue me fairly consistently.

The way your hydra has responded to my play indicates a familiarity with my play that you didn't need to indicate, and you could have used your anonymity to fake not knowing how my playstyle works. I don't see a scum-motivation in how you've dealt with this.

Desp and Who are town by virtue of other people being scummier.

[BROseidon]

This is the one I disagree on. Can you go into more detail about the bro-peng status quo, and why you think it's not peng just meta-dodging to give you what you're looking for?

I can't call it a "status quo" because we've only had peng-scum me-town twice (once was offsite with a different meta). In the one relevant game, she spent a good chunk of days 1-2 setting up a push on me day 3. She's also pushed a mislynch on me as town, and I couldn't out-argue her to diffuse the wagon.

At a higher level, the fact that penguin knows my game really well. With the exception of a few others, penguin has seen my game the post, and she's seen it across a broad range of contexts. She knows that I'm mislynchable as town. This is why I don't think it's meta-dodging. Scum need to land 3 mislynches to win, and I don't think scum-TV would pass up the opportunity take one of those mislynches. Me catching out Mala-scum both times I've seen it would further incentivize a scum-TV push on me.

[BROseidon]

Scumminess is relative. Desp's "scum-debt" stayed the same, but other people defaulting harder made his debt level less scummy.

I need to work on my financial metaphors :/

[BROseidon]

I wasn't lying. I was explaining my motivations behind what you call a "defense". Even if my intended result was to indeed diffuse the wagon, it was not because I wanted to defend Hermy.
It's because I wanted to get a decent read on her and I didn't think I was going to get it after a wagon. She's proven herself to be self-hammering, flailing town before, why the hell are you expecting me to take that out of the equation?

Because excusing that sort of behavior on a meta-level is shit, is why.

I'm starting to get more and more why people support policy/utility lynches.

In your zest to call me an idiot you have forgotten to think through your own self-defense argument.

1. Using your lack of wanting to build town-equity as an argument shows how WIFOM that argument is. You are actively using behavior you claim to have come naturally as a strategic instrument, leading me to think it didn't come naturally at all.
2. I was talking about STYLE. I remembered your last game more low-profile and less aggravating on a meta-game level through insults.

But you ARE building town equity in this game, even though your style doesn't hint at it. Your approach of townreading two people and POE'ing the rest as town fromt here is the very definition of buddying to large groups. You focus on 2, max. 3 people, based on flimsy arguments and try to gather friends around you by your blanket, implied townreads.
How have you not been building town equity? Through insulting me? But I'm your biggest scumread...

We'll save this convo for post-game because it involves a lot of meta-level stuff that, as you said, I could be manipulating as scum.

Plan Two won't work, as you'll be dead by Day 2.

So we force scum to shoot me to obfuscate Hermy's alignment. That seems like an okay trade to me.

[BROseidon]

This is such bullshit. Do you really, genuinely think I'd even try to explain away a scumhammer through shouting "lynchbait, lynchbait!"? There are degrees of scumminess that can be explained by the lynchbait-reasoning, the hammer XScorpion is talking about would by far exceed its relevance. You pretending not to realize I know this is what is truly bullshit about this argument.

This also isn't bullshit. People have explained away really shitty hammers on much better players (xReck got away with it as scum in Red Wedding. Hell, you just saw ETL get away with it)

[BROseidon]

You have got to be kidding me.

How does that warrant a townread?
How is it critical thinking? He doesn't even have his facts straight.

Zoya head of Trine: I want your opinion on this post.

[BROseidon]

Well, your argument is wrong. Unless Bro is lynchbait as well?

Remind me to talk about this in post-game.

I have some really fun statistics about this.

[BROseidon]

I need to go more slowly through his posts. A lot of language use is pinging.

[BROseidon]

Ok guys I'm just gonna go ahead and be honest

: this is my first time replacing into a game and I had thought it would be different. I understimated the difference between reading how someone interacts and actually interacting with that person. I also voted before having caught up with everyones play.

I

actually

think BRO's reaction to my/gg's accusations was townish (although the claim was not).

So yeah, I'm just gonna take back a few steps and think it through before making a move.

I hate to pull the low newbie argument and I know that some of you don't like this post, but it explains the wishywashyness and imo it's better to be truthful than to keep hanging on to my shit case and play uncomfortably.

As for my biggest scumread atm, it would have to be desp, but don't expect it to stay that way.

1) Usually when people qualify something with "to be honest," they're actually lying. The problem is, the statement that follows isn't something that makes sense to lie about here (unless he's an alt).

2) Similarly, use of the word "actually" indicates dishonesty. However, given that he just used it in a sentence that probably wasn't a lie, he could have a baseline "scummy" writing style (a la mastin).

3) This reads as genuine to me on gut.

[BROseidon]

TierGod, is English your first language.

Yes, this is relevant to the game.

[BROseidon]

Then post 290 is irrelevant, and I can't do linguistics stuff the way I wanted to :/

[BROseidon]

I use it in most of my games nowadays.

[BROseidon]

Link to game where you used it to successfully catch scum?

First game where I saw someone use it, Waynegg uses it to successfully catch TD

Me using it wrong on fferyllt

[redacted]

[BROseidon]

Why shouldn't we lynch Who? Anyone?

Because I still want to lynch Grim more.

[BROseidon]

Why is he scum then?

Haven't I already talked about this pretty extensively?

[BROseidon]

I feel like this was written in a language other than English because I don't know what Bro is asking nor what Zoya answered. Can I get a translator?

There was some stuff I wanted him to look at; it didn't align with the issues I had with the post.

[BROseidon]

No you're scum because I pegged the fuck out of you.

Cat, outside the bag. Outside the bag, cat.

Oh hi Zoy-Cabd

[BROseidon]

Although if you're not actually Zoya, then I'm pretty sure my Zoya guess is correct.

[BROseidon]

The way GG tries to discredit the townread without coming out and saying "I think it's wrong," instead focusing on what he thinks to be weak logic.

[BROseidon]

It strikes me as a "missed forest for trees" type of arguing approach that's common with scum.

[BROseidon]

Only had him in AP's Sabo micro. Everyone townread him and I only glossed over his posts b/c he was putting pressure away from me and my partner (I was scum with ETL). Ended up capping his ass N1

[BROseidon]

These are from his wiki. Two scum game ISOs, and the second is the most recent. See what you make of them.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

As a linguist, you are probably better suited for these analyses than I am.

I'll skim these, hopefully tomorrow.

[BROseidon]

My gut agrees with townreading XScorpion so I'm not discrediting the subject of the townread. I am discrediting the author of the townread. The reasons that were given for townreading Xscorpion were crap.
When I see crappy reasons for townreads I get suspicious. And so should you.

I understand the position; what I don't understand is why you didn't aggress harder off it.

[BROseidon]

I get why a bad trajectory on a townread, especially one that should be easy, is a scumtell.

I don't get why you didn't bite on it harder.

[BROseidon]

Also, that quote has no relation to the point that you're making. Mixing up facts!=bad trajectory.

[BROseidon]

I don't like TierShift's recent posts but I'm very afraid that they're noobtown.

[BROseidon]

You said "so much of this" in response to the same quote where penguin_alien responded to with a statement of seeing sound logic and a townread to boot.

"So much of this" looks like the same thing to me really. It means you couldn't agree more. Despite the facts having been mixed up.

You're still not addressing my point re: mixing up facts versus having a bad trajectory.

Bad trajectory is indicative of scum because it indicates someone attempting to imitate an "honest" read, but not really understanding how to go about it. It results in a sloppy line of reasoning that doesn't make sense.

Mixed up facts just means someone made a blunder about a position.

Imagine the game as a series of points and connecting lines, with the points being events/statements/facts, and the connecting lines being the narrative formed from those points. You're trying to use an argument pertinent to the way the lines are connecting the points to apply to something that was a mixup about a point was.

Do you follow?

[BROseidon]

@Who thanks for telling me that hermy thing, hadn't realized that before,

omg that is scummy like how did I even not see that.

XS, now I have someone to vote for, a replacement being pressured from the get-go is something I like.
VOTE: hermy

Thanks TierShift for pointing this out.

This is what was making me not like TierShift. The bolded is overemphasis; Tiershift really wants us to know that he didn't see what Who pointed out and that he's sorry for it.

VOTE: TierShift

[BROseidon]

BRO, you pointed out TierShift's reaction to Who's post. Do you think he's buddying or propping up a scum buddy?

Could see it as either, would bias towards buddying based on the fact that I have enough other scumreads that numerically it works out that way.

[BROseidon]

Eek still hasn't caught up :/

[BROseidon]

It'd be Who's, methinks.

Tier wagon has more traction and I like it more right now.

Still don't get why everyone else is reading grim as town but w/e. I'll be visiting him tonight unless I say otherwise.

[BROseidon]

I like how Grim has 4 scumreads and two null read.

TV reads as town to me, although mala's posted relatively little and my history of reading penguin indicates that I won't catch scum-her until day 3-4 if at all.

[BROseidon]

like seriously this isn't perpetual LyLo.

I get that you need to set up a specific number of mislynches, but you can try being less transparent about it.

If I die tonight you fuckers better lynch GG.

[BROseidon]

I have him as weak town.

[BROseidon]

I have him as weak town.

Why?

Because I read confusion as being more of a town trait than a scum trait from how I play. Who seems more lost than anything else.

[BROseidon]

He's expressed confidence, and then whenever things haven't gone his way been super apologetic but still vaguely confident.

[BROseidon]

Protective PR on Who over me. His role is more valuable than mine and he can just revive me.

[BROseidon]

We just PL who tomorrow.

Problem solved

[BROseidon]

A day 2 policy lunch answers this shit.

[BROseidon]

Phone post ftw

[BROseidon]

It makes me the only person here who's fucking competent.

VOTE: Tiershift I guarantee that both scum were on that wagon, given that I was the only one to point out that THE OPTIMAL PLAY WAS A DAY 2 POLICY LYNCH AND EVERYONE FUCKING IGNORED THAT.

[BROseidon]

LIKE HOLY SHIT GUYS.

YOU DAY 2 POLICY THAT CLAIM.

HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

[BROseidon]

@Mod V/LA through monday

[BROseidon]

Oh, because BRO told us the optimal play, then sure, we should follow him? Sorry, I make my own decisions. In hindsight, yes, the optimal play might have been to not lynch Who, but at the time I really believed the claim was made up. Why waste time on starting another wagon so close to deadline when I thought we had scum?

Been sort of following the conversation, but I'm gonna say this:

1) Yes I do expect you to just sheep me because I'm right far more often than I'm wrong.

2) I expect you to sheep me even more when what I'm saying is not just right, but so blatantly obviously right that missing it requires a level of derping I refuse to believe.

3) Keep trying to make us believe that you really thought the claim was fake more.

VOTE: Eek

Townread on Trine shattered ftr.

[BROseidon]

Protective PR on Who over me. His role is more valuable than mine and he can just revive me.

I know I've addressed this before, but:
1. It is stupid. Why would he need protection if he can just rewind?
2. It is obvious and unnecessary
3. It is not matching up with his arguing that who needs to be policy lynched day 2. If who is killed at night, he can also confirm himself when rewinding time, otherwise just the d1 lynch target (he basically needs to rewind time d1 or he gets policy lynched by bro)
4. There is no town motivation in this post.

The only motivation I can think of is scum wanting to find out if there are protective roles by killing who N1.

Can anyone see town motivation in this post?

Because his role would have been used optimally as a PL and I was fine dying to let that happen.

[BROseidon]

Yes, the town is so stupid that they decided to tell Bro he is a moron and lynch Who despite it being the dumbest move possible. You're a genius. Just genius.

Pretty much this.

If the Who wagon was finished off by town it might be the move dumb enough to make me retire from this game because I'm sick of dealing with people not understanding basic gametheory.

[BROseidon]

Yes, we made a mistake. Mislynches happen, get over it.

And in this case I don't understand how anyone could come to a different conclusion. Anyone with even a slight understanding of mafia would have thought that role was made up in such a small setting. Too good to be true? Never heard of that?

1) I came to a different conclusion that was STRICTLY SUPERIOR. I explained what it was. There was ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING GODDAMN REASON FOR THAT LYNCH TO GO THROUGH, AND YOU TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT NOW IS PRETTY FUCKING TERRIBLE.

[BROseidon]

I still haven't dropped my suspicion of bro, though.

Either you're scum or you have a metric fuckshitton of learning to do about how to play this game.

[BROseidon]

I'd be suspicious of xScorp right now for being the voice of reason, but apparently I need to learn to be more consistent in my play and I already feel like I'm starting to jump around to much this game.

I'm also switching my visit target to Trine tonight.

[BROseidon]

Such skill Desp.

Such skill.

Now join me on the Eek wagon.

[BROseidon]

1) His claim was more likely true than not.

2) If not true, you still PL for an answer.

3) It's better to use the rewind to save someone who got NK'd than to let him get NK'd and save someone who got lynched. It would also synergize better with my role if he was PL'd.

[BROseidon]

Roleclaim: Tim from Braid, the Time Traveller
Once, I can rewind time

by a night and a day

. Anyone who died then will be revived. I can rewind time immediately after dying, but only immediately after, so if I am lynched today I'll rewind to the beginning of day one and be conftown (I flip town then revive), but we'll only have me, if I rewinded after a towny was lynched and a towny died we would have 2 conftownies+Me being probtown from role. And flips do reveal alignment, this role seemed rather awesome so I checked pre-game.

I could declare 2 targets in case I died hitting scum and he got PL'd.

[BROseidon]

But anyway, discussing when the best possible time for who to rewind was is not gonna help us any further. BRO, do as I asked, please.

But gauging reactions to the claim and the wagon will.

And I'm going to be a dick when people around me do blatantly stupid shit.

[BROseidon]

There also was a chance that who was scum, in which case hammering was best. It would have been better than a PL d2 so idg what you're ramblin about, BRO.

Nope.

Equivalent in all win cases except for a perfect game. I'm going to play a numbers game over a game for a perfect win.

[BROseidon]

{Eek Tiershift Trine}

Scum are in there.

[BROseidon]

Assuming that we win, that is. My play would give us room for an extra mislynch later on.

You're thinking about it wrong.

In all cases except the perfect-win case, mislynches happen. Even assuming Who-scum, lynching him day 2 means at worse you put the day-2 mislynch on day 1.

So in everything except the perfect-win case, I'm right.

[BROseidon]

You seem to be missing the point still.

IN ANY GAME EXCEPT A PERFECT GAME, MISLYNCHES WILL HAPPEN.

IN THE CASE OF WHO-SCUM, MY PLAN WOULD DISPLACE THE DAY 2 MISLYNCH TO DAY 1, WHILE SECURING A SCUM LYNCH ON DAY TWO.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHEN MISLYNCHES HAPPEN, SO LONG AS ALL SCUM GET LYNCHED.

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU.

[BROseidon]

Who (5) - Trine, Grimgroove, XScorpion, My Milked Eek, TierShift

XScorp scum would fit with "both scum are on this wagon," and the point about him buddying me makes sense.

@Eek: The point I'm making is that there wasn't town motivation towards the tail-end of the Who push. I've stated why the Who lynch was an explicit misplay. There are too many people who made the mistake for everyone to have been scum, but the push still had to have had 2 scum in it. I don't think that that many townies would make an explicitly wrong play.

Trine also has played up internal hydra dissonance multiple times at this point to justify bad pushes.

Yeah, I'm visiting Trine tonight.

[BROseidon]

Wait wtf XScorp didn't post b/w the claim and the hammer.

Neither did GG.

Which leads me back to Trine/Eek/Tier.

[BROseidon]

Preventing mislynches is better than just not doing that.
And that's the last I will say about that.
This discussion wasn't fruitless, however. It helped me convince you were town, bro.
How about you help us lynch scorp today and visit me or eek in case scorp is town?

P-edit: bah you're back to square one...

Pushing the Who wagon pre-claim was fine. Pushing it post-claim was bad.

XScorp could have lurked through it, but with 3 people actively pushing it that still looks relatively fine for him.

Also I'm visiting Trine because holy fuck if that's scum it needs to die, and if it's town conftowning it is very powerful.

[BROseidon]

I'm glad you finally mentioned the buddying yourself. It's one thing to call someone town and to agree with someone, but it's another to take it to that level of ass kissing. Could you look over the case against scorp and give your opinion? I don't think you have done that already.

Is there more to the case than just "He's buddying BROseidon" at this point?

Because that's the only thing I can think of at this point.

And it's not as bad as the Who wagon going through.

[BROseidon]

That's pretty much the start of my suspicion of Scorpion. His reaction to the lynch during his absence is really wrong, not whether he was here during or not. No one contested his absence. It's about his reaction.

I should learn to read whole posts before spamposting.

I'll look at the reaction.

[BROseidon]

In the case of Trine, our motivation is necessarily town. Your disagreeing with our thought processes doesn't change that.

~ Zoya

Your lack of incorporation of Theory of Mind here is disconcerting.

[BROseidon]

Has the case on me (and on Eek as well I think?) already got any further than "you didn't follow what I thought was optimal play, you must be scum"?

There were cases on both you and Hermy before the who wagon happened.

[BROseidon]

To Eek/Trine/Tier:

If XScorp is scum, who is the buddy?

[BROseidon]

Note: this is before rereading.
I'm gonna use PoE here.
People who I think aren't scorp's partner, in order of certainty:
Me/Who
Eek
Bro
Grim
That leaves:
Desp - townread for the moment so scratch him
Trine - I'm getting paranoid about my townread on him. Might be a possible bus.
TV-keep forgetting about them. Will reread

For now, it could be Trine or TV and perhaps just perhaps desp.
Will do some research.

What criterion/a are you using to drive that dividing line?

[BROseidon]

The line is based on me thinking if they can be scum with scorp or not? I don't get your question.

Did my rereading, now I think that TV is scorp's most likely partner, as they have addressed each other exactly once (correct me if I'm wrong), scorp saying "TV's post is a good one" and TV saying "I like the critical thinking. Townread". They seem to be avoiding each other.
Trine is still a possibility, as their interaction with scorp doesn't go very in-depth and feels a tad forced.
I scratch desp from my list, as I see no connection between desp and xscorp whatsoever.

Got it.

Re: my question about the line: that was me reading poorly and thinking you'd arbitrarily PoE'd when you explained it in you post.

[BROseidon]

To Eek/Trine/Tier:

If XScorp is scum, who is the buddy?

I am not at all convinced that XScorp is scum. Amadeus feels that if there is one scum on the Who wagon that scum is XScorp due to PoE. I think we're looking in the wrong places tbh.

UNVOTE

Amadeus and I have talked about this, and will talk and reread some more. Pontius is out of pocket for now.

~ Zoya

Why only 1 scum on who wagon?

[BROseidon]

Eek/Tier wagons should compromise on one of those two IMO.

[BROseidon]

It could also be a BS claim where he feeds us something from the scum QT for a few days :/

[BROseidon]

I outright disagree with you about how scum would interact with the Who wagon. Like, if I were scum, I would push it super hard after the weak visitor claim b/c the synergy there is obvious.

[BROseidon]

High risk: By pushing Who that hard, and given that they would know Who is town and thus know his claim was legit by extension, they would guarantee that they would most likely be lynched when Who brought himself back.

Low reward: Who is going to bring himself back, which they know by the very fact of him being town and therefore not lying about his role. In essence, they gain nothing, since Who is still alive. Sure, it's 1 conf. town vs. 3 at most (Although you're discounting all the possible variations that could happen, chaos theory and all.), but it's a risk not worth taking, especially since I'm sure that scum have ways to take care of such issues and that they can use the WIFOM to their advantage. For example, they could keep Who alive and kill Bro during the night. Town goes nuts and mislynches whoever Bro was on (assuming that person was town), and now scum have turned Who's ability to their advantage and can keep him alive for a little longer, since he's a useless innocent.

1) Scum may not have known that claim was legit. Town lie about their roles sometimes.

2) It's high reward because it negates the possibility of me hitting+rewind, as well as conftowning other people who died. Who's ability was insanely strong, and popping it day 1 was a huge win to scum.

[BROseidon]

@Mod V/LA through Jan 3

I'm on Trine tonight. On the off chance they get wagoned, I'll be on Tier.

[BROseidon]

Might lose us the game even.

Then why wouldn't you self hammer?

Desp, why are you willing to let such AtE sway you?

[BROseidon]

I have about 1 hour before my flight, and I want to see Eek or Tier lynched by then.

[BROseidon]

VOTE: tier

[BROseidon]

Waiting on something from the mod, will have content thereafter.

[BROseidon]

Okay, got my result.

Either Trine is ascetic or scum have some sort of RB in play.

[BROseidon]

Although I'm really not sure why I was notified that my ability just didn't work...

[BROseidon]

You're suggesting that I targeted Desperado and he is now dead so I must be scum. Except I know that I'm not and I know that I targeted Scorp. With 9 people I doubt we have only 1 scum; with 2 or 3 people alive on the scum team, you're suggesting that as scum, I'd have submitted an action AND a kill, which isn't allowed unless I'm the last or one and only scum. So either you are scum and lying or you are town and telling the truth with some false results (less likely imo).

Um...

Holy shit you're scum, aren't you.

You really didn't think you would be able to pull that past me given that we were just scum together in a game where I could NK and do a night action on the same night, right?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: ETL

That's L-1.

ETL literally just lied about games not having scum able to both shoot and target elsewhere. It's also a good mechanism to balance scum in a town-power heavy game. It's part of what AP did in Sabo mafia where ETL and I were scum together.

[BROseidon]

In that game AP said I could not use my ability and send the kill at the same time, I'm pretty sure, which is why you made the kills?

Why would I purposefully lie about something I know you'd be able to catch me on...

You couldn't use your abilities at night because they were day abilities.

[BROseidon]

Brace yourselves.

We are Amadeus, Zoya and Pontius from Trine.

Popcorn to Turkish Van.

~ Zoya

If you hadn't said this I was gonna speed-lynch your ass.

I got Trine 2 on Steam sale and now I need to get Trine 1 to play it first :/

[BROseidon]

I'm Isaac the mailman? How the fuck does that make any flavor sense?

presumably if you were lying about your role, your flavor could also be BS?

[BROseidon]

And if he makes his target insane, then why did ETL get back a valid result on XScorp?

NAR?

In Death's Diner, the ability-stealing happened after cop investigates, so Metal Sonic got his ability stolen N1, but still had a cop result for that night.

[BROseidon]

Ah, but alignments come before roles and we gave 3 games. As a mod if I randomly determined MME was town and had to give a role, I think I'd go for the second game choice if slender was pick #1.

Didn't we just get our first choice games if nobody else took them?

[BROseidon]

I still am baffled by the lack of people's empathy skills in this game. Tell me how you would react to getting two tracking results while carrying the possible insanity modifier.

Does your role PM give you any sense of what "insanity" means, since normally it's a modifier that fucks with results, not makes you target random other people.

[BROseidon]

- etl involuntarily targeting other people because of my role's possible insanity modifier (not insane on my end as that would mean that I'd get no result back and not in the wording of my role pm).

Unless this is what your role PM says it does this, I don't think this is what it does. Mechanically, it should do what you speculated it would do to me if you targeted me and I hit town, even if from a flavor perspective that wouldn't quite make sense.

I still think an ETL lynch is the way to go.

[BROseidon]

This requires ETL to be scum too.

Not if you're a mailman?

Not saying that's where I'm going, but I'm saying that it's theoretically possible.

[BROseidon]

No. It says something along the lines of "making people insane". I tried to get extra information from the mod but he said nothing helpful (I can't paraphrase what he said without quoting him =/ It's too simple English to try and find substitutes without quoting it.)

Still makes it hard to believe that someone else going insane would equate to you seeing them go to an extra person...

[BROseidon]

I think scum team has to be either ETL/TV or Trine/Eek at this point, and I'm strongly leaning towards the former.

I like my vote still.

[BROseidon]

Okay, to be super technical:

One of {ETL, Eek} scum
One of {ETL, Trine} scum

Who and Scorp are both conftown. I know I'm town, and the rest of the game is reading me as such. Also, Trine has pseudo-confirmed me (which I don't necessarily agree with but they seem to think so so w/e).

Therefore:

If ETL is scum, TV HAS to be her partner.
If ETL is town, scum team HAS to be Eek/Trine.

Before we push a lynch through, I need to see who we're lynching so I can decide on my target. If we get a town flip, I'm not visiting; the risk is too high of me dying+an NK going through. If we hit scum, I go on my target.

[BROseidon]

Who/Scorp are gonna be the ones deciding this day, so they better get their asses in here.

[BROseidon]

Eek you should put your vote somewhere useful. Like Trine or ETL.

Who/Scorp, leaving it to you to decide who to lynch. I've made my opinion clear. If it's a scum flip, I'm using my ability on TV if ETL is lynched and Eek if Trine is lynched. Townflip means I don't do anything.

[BROseidon]

Eek you should put your vote somewhere useful. Like Trine or ETL.

Who/Scorp, leaving it to you to decide who to lynch. I've made my opinion clear. If it's a scum flip, I'm using my ability on TV if ETL is lynched and Eek if Trine is lynched. Townflip means I don't do anything.

If townflip and you die tonight, who do we lynch tomorrow?

ETL if Trine today, Trine if ETL today.

[BROseidon]

If it's a Trine flip, it's a town flip. And these will be confirmed town reads. BRO knows enough about this hydra to know that these reads can be taken to the bank. BRO, I would appreciate it if you back this up. When we flip, our reads go platinum.

Lynch TV and ETL. Order is not that important, but I personally would lynch TV first.

This except I would do ETL first.

[BROseidon]

Also tiiiiniy paranoia from us on BRO, but mostly because he should know better than this; basic mafia theory says you don't force a 1v1 on a non lylo day when the day is primed for an easier mislynch (which if we're scum one of the two on the chopping block earlier have to have been by definition)

I'm not following what you're saying here. Not that it matters; I've solved the game from my perspective, and my solution works for anyone who wants to commit to a town read on me.

I'm bored now. Who/Scorp, you guys don't have much time to pick a side.

[BROseidon]

This may be LYLO. The only way I can see LYLO as a possibility is if scum have an extra kill in the bank. BRO should be well versed in how devastating an advantage that can be, given the Touhou Imperishable Mini game. Given how powerful town is/was on paper, scum have to have something commensurate.

I hadn't thought of this, but this would make a lot of sense.

Also, there's the fact that I don't get to use my ability after 2 mislynches :/

[BROseidon]

No scum worth their shit kills a confirmed town that has decided to not play the game over players they know to be town that will actually peg them.

#HowIsurvivedforsolonginDeath'sDiner.

[BROseidon]

Who/Scorp, you guys don't have much time to pick a side.

I'm in this game pretty much all the time. You can blame my conf-town cohort over there for not voting yet.
The trick is that if the two of us don't agree, we leave the choice of who gets lynched to potential scum which is bad. I could choose to vote ETL instead of Trine but if Who doesn't agree then we're kinda stuck here.

The choice is b/w Trine and ETL.

Who and you get to pick one of them.

That's who should get lynched.

Scum don't get to dictate that.

[BROseidon]

Ironically by setting that limitation you are letting scum set who gets lynched and who doesn't.

What?

You're not making sense.

I already explained why the scum team is either ETL/TV or You/Trine.

[BROseidon]

We could switch from ETL to TV by my theory.

[BROseidon]

I'm not a suspect to myself because I know my alignment.

Nobody else is suspecting me.

I don't see the problem here.

[BROseidon]

I'm not a suspect to myself because I know my alignment.

Nobody else is suspecting me.

I don't see the problem here.

I hate this metaphor, but gun to your head, which of ETL or us is scum?

ETL.

That should be obvious

[BROseidon]

It bothers me that, despite flagrantly ignoring theory earlier and getting yelled at for it, he's choosing to ignore it again and make the game stall out/be more frustrating.

Like, I don't think it's necessarily scummy, but it bothers me hugely at a player level.

[BROseidon]

@mod V/LA through Saturday

I'll be on a bit tonight to switch wagons, but I won't be around near deadline.

[BROseidon]

GUYS.

GUYS.

NEXT TIME LISTEN TO ME ON POLICY SHIT.

>:C

[BROseidon]

Post in immaculate grammar with every possible contraction made and little/no adverbs/adjectives to frame me.

Sounds like fun.

[BROseidon]

I missed the Rift crumb, although I did think you were Nacho based on how you were interacting with me.

Knowing Zoya's a girl before this game started would have probably helped...

[BROseidon]

Also the redirect would have hit me b/c actions were being resolved in non-standard ways.