NY 168: (GAME OVER) The Mod is Dead, Fire and Ice Edition

[Toomai]

This is a confirm post.

[Toomai]

Reasonably could have been "respect that the game hasn't officially started yet". I think it's null for that reason.

[Toomai]

Er, why exactly is this YC wagon growing so fast?

And why is Yiley so desperate to get on a wagon?

Vote: Yiley

Toomai: I'll might be able to say something once he stops/finishes his dbz marathon and talks more.

I presume you just made this up.

[Toomai]

unvote, vote: Toomai

Clearly I was sleepy this morning.
Garmr's right, wtf was that comment.

Non-sequitur-ness of the original comment really irked me; I felt obliged to say something about it. I went for the "sure whatever bro" instead of the "where'd you come up with this" or the "no I was actually watching curling".

mastin2's probably right, there's probably a lotta scum on that wagon. I think Slandaar or Yiley are most likely right now (one for getting on the wagon just after the "first" votecount, the other for wanting to be on a wagon and hopping on a weak poke).

[Toomai]

it's multiball?

Zounds. Was this not in both the rules and the title?

TSO is probably town for ignorance.

[Toomai]

it's multiball?

Zounds. Was this not in both the rules and the title?

TSO is probably town for ignorance.

Just probably? Either you think it was a townslip or you think it was a dumbtell--which is it?

As of now I think it's town, but it'll be a very strong amplifier should scummy things come out of him later.

I am kind of because honestly those are the most scummy players that i see.

Context please.

what is the scummiest post so far?

The one which contains this question is certainly in the running.

[Toomai]

I like and agree with the players on the Dry-fit wagon. The Yiley wagon is kinda not going anywhere at this point anyway.

Vote: Dry-fit

[Toomai]

I

like

and agree with the players on the Dry-fit wagon. The

Yiley wagon is kinda not going anywhere at this point

anyway.

Vote: Dry-fit

Um...

Dry - Fit[5] -Desperado, Matias,

Yiley

, mastin2, T S O
Yiley [2] -

Toomai

, Garmr

Help me out, Toomai, are you scum?

Oh was I supposed to say "

most

of the players"?

[Toomai]

"This a multiscum game I still think she could be scum but as you know scum is hunting scum as well (then a reason why you think they are both are scum)" That would of been a town response I would expect from him if he is town. But like JKLM his in a single scum hunting mind set. I am not opposed to a toomai lynch but I just want to bring JKLM to attention what do you think about my post on him.

Reasonable expectation, but note that I have never played multiball before, so I'm somewhat clueless as to how to do so.

[Toomai]

Toomai's vote on Dry-fit was particulary bad and he continues to coast in a scummy manner. It's different from Dry-fit and Yiley's *blatant* coasting, Toomai is

being more deceptive about it

Elaborate how one can be "more deceptive about [coasting]".

The point being TSO did not towntell in any shape or form and in fact the lack of reading over multiple posts that made it clear this game is in fact multiball makes it a huge scumtell.

Hes either scum who knew and scumhunted from his POV, scum who didn't know and scumhunted from his POV or town who just plain didn't read a bunch of posts. Which do you all think is more likely?

Right now I think ignorant town is more likely.

[Toomai]

1) I assume 'like' means you town-read them, why? (since your vote is based off of this)
2) agree with who? Desperado? he's the only person that gave a reason...agree with which part?
3) Why is your vote non-engaging of Dry-Fit?

1. Well let's see, the other people voting Dry-fit right now are:
   • TSO. I currently think he's town because of the previously-stated ignorance of this being multiball.
   • Matias. I think he's town because his lines of reasoning seem legitimate, especially how he backtracked when shown stuff he missed.
   • Desperado. In 203 he pointed out 116, which I hadn't fully realized.
   • mastin2. Hate his playstyle but seem to agree with most of what he thinks.
   • Yiley. Not feeling too good about him right now.
2. Yeah mostly Desperado's point-out I guess.
3. I agree with other people about him being scummy for previously-stated reasons. What exactly am I supposed to engage upon?

[Toomai]

Also Toomai why would having your townreads voting me make me scum?

I think you're scum for the reasons others have presented. The fact that townreads agree is a booster, not a base.

[Toomai]

spell out to me why #116 is scummy.

No one looks particularly scummy at the moment but I can see Toomai as scum.

Vote: Toomai.

This...just does not make any sense to me as something town would do. "Don't know scum but X could be scum"? Weird contradiction.

[Toomai]

Maybe I should of been more clear(Looks at tso) do you think that maxous is scummy or Dry-fit or they both look scummy from this post?

You worded this funny. As I understand it, it's something like "Do you think, from this one post only (116), Maxous is scummy, Dry-fit is scummy, or both?". If so, my response is: 116 doesn't directly change any opinion of mine on Maxous, but I see the "no one loks scummy, but this guy looks scummy" of Dry-fit's as an excuse to get on a wagon, possibly specifically with Maxous. I think that's suspicious at best. Other people with more skill than me are saying Dry-fit is scummy for that and other reasons, so I currently agree that Dry-fit is scummy. Maxous I'm undecided on in general.

[Toomai]

Also what is your opinion on maxous.

I don't know to be honest. I liked the assessments of YC and aptil in 160, but then Matias's 204 pointed out some stuff that upon further consideration sat wrong. I'm basically null on him right now.

[Toomai]

Unvote

Vote: JKLM

Little original thought or effort, then jumps on the end of the wagon because...something about laziness? And sheeping "this is AtE" from someone who isn't actually on the wagon. I don't like that at all.

[Toomai]

Toomai was parked on the dry-fit wagon since the page 11 votecount (and it stayed stalled til now) but as soon as it actually catches fire he immediately bails on it to.. vote someone for voting dry-fit?

Is there a problem with this? I didn't like the manner in which the vote was placed and having someone at L-1 is not necessary at this point.

[Toomai]

Why were you voting dry-fit if you weren't willing to see him lynched?

and having someone at L-1 is not necessary at this point.

Why not?

I did and still do think Dry-fit is a good lynch. But I think the deadline's far enough away that we have time to generate additional wagons for analysis later.

[Toomai]

Garmr and Slandaar combined have convinced me that JKLM is a better vote today than Dry-fit.

And TSO got confused by 403 supposedly, which mirrors the ignorance of things being multiball previously. I'm feeing both together makes him feel a bit scummier.

[Toomai]

In response to Slandaar, Toomai didn't seem too bad at the beginning. Until #169,when he said TSO might be town, just because he didn't know this was a multi-faction game. That really isn't reason enough. Next, he joins the Dry wagon, of course, saying he agrees with what people have been saying, doesn't give his own reasons. #280 he continues to defend TSO, saying he's probably ignorant town. That's his only reason, the "slip". Then this:

Garmr and Slandaar combined have convinced me that JKLM is a better vote today than Dry-fit.

And TSO got confused by 403 supposedly, which mirrors the ignorance of things being multiball previously. I'm feeing both together makes him feel a bit scummier.

I saw this coming. Yep, siding with the town, just saying he agrees with what others have been saying, déjà vu, huh? Wasn't sure about Toomai And Dry being a team, but I can definitely see that now.

280 isn't a defense, it's a statement of opinion in direct response to an open question. Also 207 explains that while I thought the ignorance was town at the time, should TSO look scummy later, it'll come back to bite him hard. It's already started to happen somewhat given the post of mine you quoted.

[Toomai]

Pacman because he laughably suggested I was white knighting in a multi-ball game (hes scum not on Dry's team and assumes I am not hence white knight - it is the only way to come to that conclusion)

I'm not quite getting this. You're saying that the only way to say "you're white-knighting" in a multiball game is for him to be on A, Dry-Fit to be on B, and you to be (according to him) "not A, so incorrectly assume not B"?

[Toomai]

We need to go on the attack and not be reflexively defensive.

How is voting for a terrible hammer not going "on the attack"?

VOTE: Aptil, and he better give me a good reason why he's inno if he wants to change my vote

I'll wait until he says something.

Unvote

You wait until he says something before you unvote.

Vote: aptil

[Toomai]

It is being reflexively defensive. Instead of looking for good legitimate scumreads, people are being reflexive and jumping on to a wagon with little to no reasoning and bad reasoning if any.
VOTE: toomai

So now explain how that vote of yours is not reflexive and doesn't have little reasoning.

[Toomai]

JKLM hasn't posted in 5+[night]+3 days. Can we prod him?

Not a fan of NJAC's initial entrance (looks kinda noncomittal and "help me find the majority opinion"), but he then asks some decent questions.

[Toomai]

Think that there's definitely scum within lurkers

This guy's a sawed-off genius. :|

I'm considering going back to voting Yiley; I'm still not all that impressed with aptil but his one hammer is probably weaker than Yiley's two days of weak posts.

[Toomai]

Desperado seems to be scratching for a reason to vote Yiley. You read him as scummy from only one of his posts. I'm not liking it.

Sometimes one post is all you need. I don't know whether it's enough in this case to vote for, but I've had a negative opinion of him for a little while now.

[Toomai]

aptil [4] - Bulbazak, Garmr, Toomai, PeregrineV, Matias

Matias never voted aptil.

That's the error, not the number.

I've decided I'm done with aptil for now.

Vote: Yiley

His Day 2 is much worse than aptil's, and I think this needs to be elaborated better:

It is being reflexively defensive. Instead of looking for good legitimate scumreads, people are being reflexive and jumping on to a wagon with little to no reasoning and bad reasoning if any.
VOTE: toomai

So now explain how that vote of yours is not reflexive and doesn't have little reasoning.

Your poor reasoning is what I'm attacking here

[Toomai]

Nice OMGUS vote lol

Are you going to elaborate on 519 or not? And what about 553?

[Toomai]

This game could probably do with a mass prod.

[Toomai]

Honestly, this begs the question. Dry-fit wasn't scum. Why was there a counter-wagon to him forming? My best guess is that one or more of the other wagons in the previous votecount (Toomai/Yunichika/Bulbazak/Desperado/Maxous) was on scum, and that they wanted to ensure that the lynch was guaranteed to--if not on town--at least not be on their faction of scum. In particular, I'm thinking about the Toomai and Bulbazak wagons. Probably not for the same faction, but both having a significant chance of being FROM a faction.

I don't get this. Dry-fit was already a strong lynch candidate that both teams knew was either town or opposite. Why would they move to form a counter-wagon on someone else? That doesn't seem to accomplish anything.

[Toomai]

JKLM scum getting wagoned by town countering Dryfittown's mislynch makes a lot more sense than Mastin's overcomplicated justification.

things

I never liked the JKLM slot anyway.

Vote: JKLM

[Toomai]

Give raisins, because this post and vote furthers my scum read on you.

Why is that? Because I went back to a previous scumread that appeared to be gaining steam?

[Toomai]

What I'm saying is, give me

your

thinking on JKLM. If he looks so scum to you that you want to vote him, give us

your

reads.

Little original thought or effort, then jumps on the end of the wagon because...something about laziness? And sheeping "this is AtE" from someone who isn't actually on the wagon. I don't like that at all.

[Toomai]

So went back and re-read for the sole purpose of sorting out Mastin. To really test this, I looked at readslists, got my conclusions, then checked his.

re: Maxous' readslists, they're exactly the same, exactly. the. same.

Bulba, I tried, but pretty sure you're incorrect here.

I'm not seeing any past Maxous and mastin2 readslists being the same. Can you clarify?

[Toomai]

You are telling me someone suggesting they don't know it is multiball makes them town. I am saying that actually scum wouldn't come into the game acting like they know it is multiball.

But isn't it a distinct disadvantage for scum to come into a game advertised and titled as multiball and act like it isn't? At best it makes them stand out; at worst it makes it obvious they're only hunting for one opposing group.

Vote: Desparado

Sorry you got a scum role this game.

This is the first non-RVS Desperado vote all game. Explain it.

[Toomai]

(he would know it IS but not that it is advertised)

Riiiiiiiight yes indeed. Okay then.

I mean it's not like I needed more help to think TSO is scummy, but this makes it a bit more so.

[Toomai]

I approve of that mastin case you have there, but why follow it with a YC vote? Yeah I know you've had it as scum for a while (and I don't exactly disagree), but it seems like an odd time to give it a vote.

[Toomai]

I'll start by saying that I don't have any firm reads off the bat.

And how much of the game have you read at the time of that post?

[Toomai]

How does Bulbazak go from making a case on Mastin and move on to voting someone completely different and only 1 person finds it strange ? UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bulbazak .

Something is wrong with the situation yes, but I don't really think it means Bulbazak is scum, because while his YC vote is weirdly-timed isn't not exactly unexplained (due to several previous posts).

[Toomai]

Hey mod can you prod some dudes while you're at it? And recheck that votecount, you have Bulbazak listed twice.

I have not seen much town from YC in general, and I still don't like the JKLM slot. I'll vote either of them if necessary to get a lynch.

There's a reason I usually let Jacob do the votecounts... Anyway, you're right, and it has been fixed. - City

[Toomai]

Well I didn't really need any more help to vote YC.

Vote: YuniChikako

I don't see anything wrong with p_a's reads post, so...not sure what to think of the slot right now.

[Toomai]

Is not thinking anything's wrong with my reads post enough for you to change your negative opinion on my slot? Do you disagree with any of my thoughts therein?

It doesn't change my currently-negative opinion of the slot, but it does weaken it, because no I don't really disagree with any of it.

[Toomai]

Yuni is obviously fucking town

We have more players than there are scum (assuming 3 per team) voting otherwise. Therefore there is no obvious-townosity at all.

[Toomai]

-Suddenly voted Yiley for not much reason.
-Pretty sure no reason was given to vote me, either.
-"TSO is probaly town for ignorance", I really don't think that not realizing the game is multiball qualifies as any kind of slip.
-He failed to ever give reasons for dry fit being scummy. He just said, "yeah, what others are saying are pretty legit" without ever giving his reasons.
-When I was questioning Desperado's Yiley vote, Toomai says that sometimes one post is all you need to determine someone's alignment. Just.... what? I highly doubt anyone could think that. It would have to be such a scummy post it would win the Guiness World Record of worst scum play in the history of ever. Whatever post it was that Desperardo was looking at because I definitely do not remember, it certainly would not qualify.
-Votes aptil, says I shouldn't unvote and wait for aptil to say something, then "I'm done with aptil for now".

• In the early-game, "not much reason" is all you have.
• Okay yes I haven't really written much of my YC read, but it has been slightly negative for the entire game and was reinforced by the case made by Matias.
• My thinking at the time was that it is significantly more difficult to lack awareness of the game being multiball if you're given a scum QT, because it'll probably be titled something like "snow scum can be nefarious in here". Note that this opinion of mine is no longer true.
• Can't argue with this.
• It's from a quote of Truant's on ABR's wiki page: "[...] scum can play really well and only make one mistake. That's all that is necessary as not every post will be scummy. All you need is one solid slip and you can find scum." I figured the quote might have applied in the situation so I made a similar comment.
• I voted aptil. Things occurred involving aptil and other players. I changed my vote to suit. Problem?

[Toomai]

Ummmm okay I'm not sure what to make of these shenanigans.

I'm going to consider aptil "not scum" for now, since the only real reason I didn't like him before was that awful hammer; he doesn't really have any other posts I'd call scummy.

[...] but there's another major reveal coming, and I promised to hold off.

Well don't hold off too long.

[Toomai]

What do you mean shenanigans?

I mean mastin suddenly making a billion and one posts. I'm debating over whether I should try to comprehend them or just ignore them.

[Toomai]

What I don't get is why epm gave it up instead of trying to counterclaim, which would have at least given him a chance to mislynch the guy who nabbed him.

Anyway it's L-1 now. aptil and NJAC have yet to post, so I figure we should wait until they show up before ending the day.

[Toomai]

His telling bulb here to hurry up and make the reveal.

I seem to recall other people also saying we should put together as much information as we have.

What I don't get is why epm gave it up instead of trying to counterclaim, which would have at least given him a chance to mislynch the guy who nabbed him.

Anyway it's L-1 now. aptil and NJAC have yet to post, so I figure we should wait until they show up before ending the day.

Sounds like his concealing a little frustration at epm also and the eagerness in wanting the day to end also.

I don't see the need to rush today tbh.

You misinterpreted this. I was making sure people knew that it's not a good idea to end the day until at the very least everyone has posted. That said with a scum outed I don't see the point in waiting around to get rid of him once there's no new information to bring up.

[Toomai]

Unofficial votecount: TSO, Desperado, PeregrineV, Bulbazak, EPM, and aptil are voting EPM (6/7); mastin2 is voting Desperado. So yeah that's just L-1 and he's already self-voting. But I still don't like the vote itself by aptil; it's rather unnecessary.

[Toomai]

umm Yiley died so how can you make that supposition? He could have investigated Aptil but not able to give results because he died.

Also, looking back over Yiley's posts d2 makes it clear that Aptil is not fire scum.

[Toomai]

Still waiting on that NJAC post too.

[Toomai]

Vote: aptil

Still think he's scum.

[Toomai]

From seeing no posts as scummy to still think as scummy . Please explain .

I was considering you as not scum earlier because of the apparently crumbed "not Fire" result. But I still had you listed near the bottom of the pile, and in the end I decided that the Day 1 hammer was just too awful, and 886 has a bad gut feeling.

[Toomai]

Fire:
Maxous
Slandaar
JKLM

Ice:
Yiley
aptil
????

Aptil is cleared of Ice-scum.

I don't see the connection that lead to this conclusion. Is there something precluding him from listing a townie and a scumbuddy in his list?

[Toomai]

I'm really not liking where my reads are at. I'll probably reevaluate during the night phase. I have a feeling somebody in my town list is probably scum.

Why wait until night?

[Toomai]

Hey TSO I think you missed 927.

[Toomai]

Well that's L-1, and I don't think I'll be able to get rid of this wagon on me, so I guess I'll claim. Going to go pick up breadcrumb.

[Toomai]

T

his is a confirm post.

R

easonably could have been...

E

r, why exactly...

N

on-sequitur-ness...

Z

ounds. Was this not...

A

s of now...

I

L

ike and agree...

O

h was I...

R

easonable expectation...

E

laborate how one...

Claim: Town Doctor

• Night 1: Protected Garmr (one of two top town reads)
• Night 2: Protected Bulbazak (one of two top town reads)
• Night 3: Protected Bulbazak (high town read and gut kill-attracting feeling)

(yes I muffed the L, I didn't notice until it was too late)

(in case you don't know, Trenzalore is a notable location in Doctor Who)

[Toomai]

I've had Desperado as a weak town read for most of the game, but it's been really stale, and this recent skepticism about my claim seems...a bit off somehow. I mean it doesn't look BAD, but being the only person to speak out against it is suspicious by itself.

[Toomai]

So I don't know if anyone's noticed since no one's posting, but we have 3.5 days left.

I'm currently voting aptil, but I'll go to Desperado or RachMarie (the other two players with any votes on them) if necessary. Desperado's recent posts are just not doing it for me (not just today but the day or two beforehand), and I don't recall RM doing anything I'd call clearly town.

[Toomai]

This is multiscum If he claimed doctor his going to get shot any way what's the point in pushing a lynch on him.

So much this. Voting for me is a waste of a lynch. Pick someone who you both think is scum and isn't a free nightkill.

[Toomai]

Vote: RachMarie

I just feel underwhelmed by everything she's done in general. Plus I gotta vote somewhere that might get lynched in the next day before deadline (assuming no extension due to aptil's replacement).

[Toomai]

You're really gonna kill a viable wagon for that one line? Ugh.

Vote: Desperado

[L-1]

because there's no way the rest of this game will get on the NJAC wagon fast enough. If by some miracle people do, I may think about joining.

[Toomai]

I protected Slandaar last night FYI; he's a weaker townread for me and so seemed like a decently more unexpected choice.

Mod: Considering how all previous kills were flavoured as belonging to a team, can you be more specific than "killed" for penguin_alien?

Sorry Mod is sleepy and Forgetful ~JS

[Toomai]

Why we would assume Desp thought Tommai was town and not scum-Ice doc?

To have a scumdoc on one side, you'd need something of reasonably equivalent power on the other side. As firescum he would know that they don't have that equivalence.

Ice Burn is an Ice-type attack that can set targets on fire in the Pokémon series, there's no way it stands for anything but "killed by both teams".

[Toomai]

To have a scumdoc on one side, you'd need something of reasonably equivalent power on the other side. As firescum he would know that they don't have that equivalence.

Or he would know they

do

have that equivalence. Which to me makes a lot more sense in regards to his push on you.

I very much dislike how you have just discounted that possibility for no apparent reason.

I don't want to get into much setup discussion at this point, but I just don't think that town is balanced with two teams of 2 goons and a doctor/equivalent.

[Toomai]

Bulbazak, what's up with your NJAC read? I see you having him as low on the town list Day 3, null Day 4, and now apparently scum Day 5. Is it just his noncontributions or something else?

[Toomai]

Zekrom25 replaces aptil.

Vote: Zekrom25

aptil was a scumread of mine. Zekrom25 is 100% grade-A prime-cut policy lynch material (haven't played him before but I've seen him in action in several games). 'nuff said.

[Toomai]

Discussing onging games is forbidden, so I'm not explaining it.

[Toomai]

Zek replaced into a scum slot.

You should vote it then.

[Toomai]

I could agree to voting NJAC/his replacement. I'd prefer to lynch aptil/Zekrom though. aptil was scummy, and Zekrom is...well, meta him yourself and draw your own conclusions, I'm not going to try and pick apart his ongoing games from his finished ones for discussion. Suffice to say he ramps up the slot's "needs to go" rating.

[Toomai]

I'm at Zek by PoE anyway, I thought his predecessor was scum, I don't want him anywhere near endgame, and if we are going to PL that slot, it has to be now, or we'll never do it.

This post speaks the truth.

[Toomai]

That was the hammer FYI.

I guess the unfortunate bit is that he'll be Ice and not Fire, so there'll still be two nightkills at large. But even that last post of his - "X could be scum and/or Y could be scum" - is pretty high tier for crap posting, especially as a replacement, especially as the day's prime target.

[Toomai]

No it's a hammer.

Zekrom25 [2]

- Toomai, RachMarie

Vote Zekrom25

Vote: Zekrom25

VOTE: zek

That's the necessary 5.

[Toomai]

I only see 9 living players.

[Toomai]

Yiley investigates Slandaar (TOWN)

This could have backfired badly if the apparent "aptil is not Fire" breadcrumb ever overpowered the "aptil is Ice" sentiment.

• I'd also like to apologize to you for the lackluster flavor towards the end, it started out so well (Not that I can claim any responsibility for that, all of that was City). On that note I'd like to thank Toomai for consistently keeping to flavor in his Action PMs and if he's okay with it I'll post them in thread.

Sure.