Micro 267 - Indie Game: The UPick - Game Over!

[Turkish Van]

I'm finding it a bit harder than normal to get into this game. I'm not sure if it's because there's a lot of newer players I don't have experience with. I know only {BRO, Desperdo, GG}. Which for some reason in itself I'm having trouble getting a read on any of those three players too. Desperado I don't have much experience in reading as I only played with Town-Town Desp-Mala once the rest we were either scum-buddies or I was scum against a town Desperado. GG is interesting as I was only scum with him once, played with town GG twice and read him wrong twice and scum GG I had pinged in gut, but never followed it up well. As for BRO I really have only played against him as scum so it was a lot easier to fabricate a read on him off his posts.

Peng and I are currently discussing Hermy. However I don't really see how the "slap fight" between GG and XS is alignment indicative as any player can forget where the votes are. I want her to explain that further.

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

(Also this is the only time I will sign my posts. Any posts not signed is likely Mala in the future)

~ Mala

Vote Count 1.04

Turkish Van (2) - Who, Trine
Grimgroove (2) - Hermy, XScorpion
Hermy (2) - Turkish Van, Desperado
XScorpion (1) - BROseidon
Trine (1) - Grimgroove

Not Voting (1) - Sanhora

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Deadline is on December 14th, 12 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-14 12:00:00)

[XScorpion]

I don't know, exactly, but I've been developing tone-and-timing-informed reads since I started playing mafia. But, they usually point up something more objective in the involved posts, and I can almost always explain my read in a decipherable form once it's jelled.

For most players this makes sense but for lynch-bait players this may be difficult at best. Some players just always seem scummy to me, but I've been told I am overly accusative.

Cold meta is a thing. I've meta'd her for other games and I'll be doing some reviews to refresh my memory.

It's a thing, but how useful is it really? I find that unless I've actually interacted with players in a game (past or present) I don't have any way to get a good read.

I concede that my ability to read this type of player is flimsy at best, so I won't push a wagon on Hermy now (also because I don't want her voting herself out right away) but if I am confident she is scum I'm not going to let her reputation prevent me from voting her.

I am very curious as to how she sees me vs. GG as town on town when I didn't get any read from GG (except for a read of our mutual math and communication skills). Trine as well (GG already explained it as gut). Can the both of you explain the townreads? Is it just gut or do you have more reasoning??

@Des:

- Baselessly calls a slapfight TvT

Trine is doing this too. Do you think they and Hermy are both scummy for this?

p-edit: TV's is a good post.

[Desperado]

Not really. Trine thinks you two get townpoints for getting us out of RVS--Hermy chimed in at the end of an argument and just called you both town ("at the moment").

[Desperado]

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

But Trine really IS doing this also, to an even greater degree than Grim. If Hermy is scum then Grim is probably more likely to be his partner--if Hermy is town, Trine is more likely to be scum looking for towncred.

[XScorpion]

Not really. Trine thinks you two get townpoints for getting us out of RVS--Hermy chimed in at the end of an argument and just called you both town ("at the moment").

Does the timing of these not matter? Hermy said it first and included the phrase 'at the moment', while Trine agreed and worded it in a less suspicious way. Ultimately they both have the same opinion, right?
Or is it specifically the wording that pings?

[Desperado]

Trine's wording shows a genuine thought process whereas Hermy's is just designed to leave his options open. Trine is leaving a trail while Hermy is not.

[XScorpion]

OK that makes sense.
Awaiting Hermy's response.

[Hermy]

I forgot to unvote Grimgroove earlier. Sorry.
UNVOTE:

And as for the town v town thing: I meant what I meant. It looks like two townies. More a gut feeling than anything but whatever. Don't know why people have a problem with my post, but I pretty much said what I thought.

And for Desperado:

at the (or this) moment
phrase of moment
1.
at the present time; now.
"he's in bed at the moment"
synonyms: at present, just now, right now, at this time, at the present time, currently, presently, at this moment in time
"I am not very anxious to see you at the moment"

Get what 'at the moment' means now?

[XScorpion]

I think desperado knows what it literally means. He is asking what it implies (why did you have to add it to your opinion?).

[Hermy]

Yeah, I know he did, just posting kinda-but-not-really-bad-sarcasm.

I put in at the moment because those were my opinions at that particular time. Simple as that.

[XScorpion]

Sure, but you could have just said 'I think it's town vs. town' and it would mean the same thing. Adding 'at the moment' makes it sounds like you are planning ahead to change your reads later on.

[Turkish Van]

Yeah, I know he did, just posting kinda-but-not-really-bad-sarcasm.

I put in at the moment because those were my opinions at that particular time. Simple as that.

But I don't see how it's at all alignment indicative at all. Like I said anyone can forget and mess up votes and currently counting. I'm not even sure how your gut is reading it as town or even scum. For me it's one of those null section areas for me.

I have to go reread Trine and Hermy. I know Trine was also defending Hermy to an extent, but GG's popped out to me because I haven't really experienced GG so early to defend someone.

[Hermy]

Sure, but you could have just said 'I think it's town vs. town' and it would mean the same thing. Adding 'at the moment' makes it sounds like you are planning ahead to change your reads later on.

Indeed, I could've just as easily missed that out. Yeah, okay. I don't plan ahead.

[Grimgroove]

I'm finding it a bit harder than normal to get into this game. I'm not sure if it's because there's a lot of newer players I don't have experience with. I know only {BRO, Desperdo, GG}. Which for some reason in itself I'm having trouble getting a read on any of those three players too. Desperado I don't have much experience in reading as I only played with Town-Town Desp-Mala once the rest we were either scum-buddies or I was scum against a town Desperado. GG is interesting as I was only scum with him once, played with town GG twice and read him wrong twice and scum GG I had pinged in gut, but never followed it up well. As for BRO I really have only played against him as scum so it was a lot easier to fabricate a read on him off his posts.

Peng and I are currently discussing Hermy. However I don't really see how the "slap fight" between GG and XS is alignment indicative as any player can forget where the votes are. I want her to explain that further.

However I can say GG defending Hermy in a sense to keep pressure off her is eyeballing. My gut says it's partner defending a partner, but I feel like it's most likely scum defending possible town for some cred if Hermy were to flip in the future.

(Also this is the only time I will sign my posts. Any posts not signed is likely Mala in the future)

~ Mala

You say you are "currently discussing" Hermy with the other head. What is there to discuss? What did you discuss? Why Hermy specifically?

And for the record, before this thing starts leading its own life: I never defended Hermy. I simply advocated another approach based on my earlier experiences with her. Just read the game I linked you to earlier you'll see perfectly where I'm coming from. Even that game itself I had resevrations about Baezu because of her lynchbait characteristics, but still went after her in the end after she failed in some reaction tests. And I went after Hermy for not recognizing the fact she was lynchbait as well. Lynchbaits are lynchbaits exactly because they fail reaction tests, regardless of alignment. So how to discern the alignment of lynchbait? Not through reaction tests, but by letting them act on their own accord.

Penguin was in that game as well by the way.

[Grimgroove]

I especially recommend that topic to Desperado, as he seems to be going down the exact same path I did during that game.

[XScorpion]

Are you suggesting that votes for Hermy are not productive because they won't produce reactions?

[Grimgroove]

Are you suggesting that votes for Hermy are not productive because they won't produce reactions?

Unless Hermy changed her game, pressure on her will result in scummy reactions and/or reactions that can be easily turned around as such. I'm simply providing you with context as to not have you jump to conclusions when that happens.

But I wouldn't call votes on her unproductive. You guys don't know her, I only know her from one game, and there is the chance she actually did change her game.

That said, I've tried that pressure-approach on the Hermy I know, and that almost got town in trouble, so I'd personally prefer the "wait and see"-approach and see what kinds of reads she produces without being pushed in a corner. I have the feeling Hermy should be pretty easy to read under those circumstances.

[Grimgroove]

If Desperado is town, I want to figure that out early because his reads are usually good and he's a good player to bounce ideas around with. Right now, I don't have a good town-sense about him.

I didn't see that shine through your RVS-questions.
And also now, later in the game, it seems that Desperado is in charge of the dialogue you have with him, with him asking questions and you answering them. How exactly are you trying to figure out his alignment?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Sanhora

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!

[XScorpion]

Just because you say his name three times doesn't mean he'll show up.

Again with the

I have the feeling Hermy should be pretty easy to read

Am I honestly the only person who doesn't agree?

[Desperado]

No, I don't agree either. But I don't see any harm in trying it their way first.

[XScorpion]

Then the question is raised of at what point do we stop 'trying it their way'?

[BROseidon]

http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 84&t=28498
And yes.

This is a strange derphammer to bring up. It's not like Desp is Saki or something.

I unvoted TV because things were going slowly and I decided to get a wagon going. Then I realized that someone else had voted TV so a wagon was going. TV is currently at L-2.

Why did you feel the need to justify your vote?

Sorry, busy weekend.

The Scorpion and Grimgroove thing looks like town on town to me at the moment.

On a semi OT (but indie game related, so yeah) note: I went and downloaded Surgeon Simulator 2013 today, hoping for a few hours of hilarious fun. I complete the operation on my first go with an A++. *siiiiiigh*

Urge to lynch, rising.

During the previos game I've played with Hermy, she set herself up as lynchbait in the beginning of the game as well. I would like to see her operate without any pressure at all before reaching any conclusions on that slot.

"I'm okay with letting players obfuscate scummy play with meta-level stupidity."

...

Grim, why are you encouraging someone to continue playing badly as town? Even if you're right and Hermy is town setting herself up as an easy mislynch, that is just a distraction--at best.

This is your 2nd post on the same page where you post something right after penguin that supports penguin's post.

VOTE: Desp

And for the record, before this thing starts leading its own life: I never defended Hermy. I simply advocated another approach based on my earlier experiences with her. Just read the game I linked you to earlier you'll see perfectly where I'm coming from. Even that game itself I had resevrations about Baezu because of her lynchbait characteristics, but still went after her in the end after she failed in some reaction tests. And I went after Hermy for not recognizing the fact she was lynchbait as well. Lynchbaits are lynchbaits exactly because they fail reaction tests, regardless of alignment. So how to discern the alignment of lynchbait? Not through reaction tests, but by letting them act on their own accord.

...except you are...

[XScorpion]

BRO, is it fair to say you are not on board with the 'wait-and-see' approach for hermy?
How would you rank Des/Hermy/GG in terms of scumminess right now?

[Trine]

I am very curious as to how she sees me vs. GG as town on town when I didn't get any read from GG (except for a read of our mutual math and communication skills). Trine as well (GG already explained it as gut). Can the both of you explain the townreads? Is it just gut or do you have more reasoning??

You are town, because you seem genuinely confused and are actively trying to figure things out. Grim is town, because it looked like he legitimately misunderstood you. Once he realized that, he stopped pushing you, instead of continuing to push you and framing it as you willfully misrepping him.

Unvote

Vote BROseidon

He's looking for reasons to vote, rather than trying to figure out who's scum.

-Amadeus