Micro 269: See Nine Minus Minus (Game Over!)

[Stuffed Crust]

Vote Stuffed Crust

This game is not going over 100 pages like the last one.

i have varsoon leashed bulba, don't you worry!

[Stuffed Crust]

Why aren't they voting yet?

because i personally dont do rvs. and we haven't left rvs.

who should i be voting bulba and why?

[Stuffed Crust]

Getting in here for the first time.
I don't do RVS.
That said, there's no way scum wasn't between the two L-2 wagons that popped up.

I'll spend some time with number analysis and post critiques in a bit.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

PoE and Statistics.
I've never been town in game where it has happened.
There's always at least one scum in the first two wagons, especially if they get pushed to L-2 or L-1.
It's too easy. In RVS, no one will be critical when you get a wagon rolling. All of the real focus gets put on the last few voters, which is hilarious.
Case in point, HipHopMafia.
I'd rather not see a repeat of those first few days.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

You could always vote your scum buddy, Tier.

WELL THAT WOULD GO AGAINST MY WINCON WOULDNT IT

don't like that Stuffed does not want to engage

unless you can channel my thoughts through yourself, i can't engage when i'm not here. sorry if that disappoints bulba.

That speaks to my character more than my alignment

i'll vouch for this. titus you can too. and it's weird that you didn't. in N's large theme he forgot numerous stuff, including that he was a naive cop. it was mighty impressive.

why is tiershift not picking up votes? obscurity could too, but he is lacking in effort and seems easy. whereas tiershift has 15 posts which are very surface level and don't probe any further, plus it's the second time he's hopped onto a cheap vote and pegged it down as "sheeping" which I don't like.

Vote: TierShift

bulba let's talk about your vote and why you're not doing anything with it.

[Stuffed Crust]

nah you're definitely not.

i mean you throw around accusations of no engagement when clearly neither of us was here to address it and now i'm trying to engage and you're blocking me out. how can i work with this?

[Stuffed Crust]

Speak of the devil...

are you going anywhere with this? because if you're suggesting i saw your post and SCRAMBLED to throw together a post in 5 minutes addressing my concerns with the gamestate so far, you're sadly waaay off track.

[Stuffed Crust]

@Tiershift: You're getting pretty defensive and you're doing a pretty good job of projecting there, too. I'm with Mac on voting you, you deserve the pressure.


@Everyone: Can we drop the "X looks Town" farce? We're 5 pages in. I'd rather not have a player get a free coasting pass this early.

[Stuffed Crust]

OH AND BY THE WAY I AM VARSOON.
MAC WILL ANSWER QUESTIONS DELIVERED HIS WAY.
THE CRUST HAS SPOKEN


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

why is tiershift not picking up votes? obscurity could too, but he is lacking in effort and seems easy. whereas tiershift has 15 posts which are very surface level and don't probe any further, plus it's the second time he's hopped onto a cheap vote and pegged it down as "sheeping" which I don't like.

Vote: TierShift

Yes my posts are very surface-level, most of them have been made in RVS. You are implying these posts haven't been helpful, which I don't agree with (if that isn't your first point you should explain further). They have got BB talking, at least.

As for the sheeping, the first one (on BB) was to get some further reaction out of him, while the second (obscurity) is for one looking to disengage. If he would actually respond I'd be sooo happy. Furthermore, idg why sheeping in RVS is wrong.

How can you really complain about my posts being thin while you yourself have posted:
1. Saying you don't do RVS and the complaining when people tell you to vote
2. Some weird rvs vote analysis
3. This vote on me
4. Complaints about bulbazak.
You might wanna go more in-depth yourself?

they go more in depth than 4 simple points like you've tried to paint it as. for example, i have explained my vote on you, and explained why I'm unhappy with bulba right now. but this deflection has been noted, because it's pretty obvious my posts aren't just one liners.

sheeping is not bad per se, but explain your townreads on the guys you sheeped? because it's basically hiding behind whoever you're sheeping and not doing much else. it's like you're trying to absolve yourself of blame if the people you vote flip town.

[Stuffed Crust]

nah you're definitely not.

i mean you throw around accusations of no engagement when clearly neither of us was here to address it and now i'm trying to engage and you're blocking me out. how can i work with this?

If by engage me, you mean accuse me of doing nothing with my vote, then you are doing a bang up job. By the way, I am doing something with my vote. I'm voting a scumread. Guess who hasn't been engaging with the game? That's right, you.

come on then bulba, what do you want to talk about? were we not engaged with the game when you voted us in the first post? you're acting really fucking strange.

Speak of the devil...

are you going anywhere with this?

Not really. Are you going to make a big deal of it?

nope. if you're not then i have no need too.

tiershift is a good vote. bbmolla is town. obscurity might be a good vote after #120; what was the purpose of voting a town player? titus is town, i liked her entrance posting wrt to molla.

[Stuffed Crust]

@BBmolla: What makes you think that of FuDuzn? Also, why would you mention that he's a town PR or scum like that? It feels like you're trying to present FuDuzn as a high-risk/high-reward wagon, but I don't see the motivation for doing so.

Now that I'm reading over it, I don't like the BBM wagon at all. There's probably one scum there, given the variety of input and activity.

As for the other scum pool I'm considering, one of Tier, BBM, and Bulba is very likely to be scum as well.

That said, I'm sticking with my other head as far as the voting goes.

[Stuffed Crust]

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

(That's not my signature, it's a mouth with an eye that's eating my above post, because the post is made by Stuffed Crust, and Stuffed Crust is delicious)

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Or town PR, one of those.

Why would you even mention this?

This.



-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I don't like it.

VOTE: BBMolla

[Stuffed Crust]

@Tier: You've gotta understand that I'm a hydra and both of my heads operate on very different levels. That said:
What disengaging?
What weird wagon analysis?
Mac's interaction with Bulba has been weird, I'll give you that. I've stayed out of it.
Easy vote? I guess so. It's only easy because BBM's doing scummy things. I feel like the pressure I'm putting there is doing more work than the earlier vote on you.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Oh, also, for the sake of making sure no one does anything stupid,

BBMolla is at L-1.

[Stuffed Crust]

Ah, but I

don't

do RVS. I'm a much more reactionary player. I'd rather get into the game once it starts rolling instead of contribute a lot of meaningless nothing and votes that don't have weight. This, in itself, isn't scummy. I've done it as both alignments plenty of times.

As for my engagement with the various wagons, I don't really see where it is BS.

Also-also, thanks for ruining my gambit.
I was hoping someone would 'hammer' and we could catch them in the act.
Now it's pretty bust.

Unvote

It's fairly obvious from my own posts that I think BBM is town. A weirdo, but town.

[Stuffed Crust]

One game is proof enough for me. Also, I've been in plenty of games where early wagons were a good indicator of where to find scum.

The different ways that the various players on BBM's wagon backed up and put forth their cases made me think that there's at least one scum in the pool that was on his wagon at the time. It had the sort of momentum that only comes when scum is piling on, if that makes sense. It felt awkward to me, and gut coupled with my experience with early-building wagons lead me to that conclusion.

I've since narrowed my second pool of scum to one of Tier (you) and Bulba. BBM's weird, but given that I suspect there is scum on his wagon (non-bussing, mind you), and how he's genuinely reacted to things, I'm fairly confident that he's not scum. This makes the second pool of consideration a bit weird for me, since both you and Bulba are currently voting for me. Your recent push on my feels pretty genuine (you're engaged in discourse, your reasons are fairly sound, etc), but that's just as easily a point in your regard if you are town. Bulba's had less furor than you on his push for me, which makes me much more suspicious of him than you.

So,

[Stuffed Crust]

Aw I hit post too early.

And man, I love cheap gambits~

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

come on then bulba, what do you want to talk about?

Why aren't you getting involved with this game? This isn't like you at all.

I am involved with the game. you're choosing not to see it.

were we not engaged with the game when you voted us in the first post?

Seeing as you disappeared soon after that, nope.

honestly bulba, please take a second here. you voted us in the

first

post. how can I disappear "soon after" that? I came in and said I don't do RVS and suddenly you're accusing me of not being involved in the game and not engaging you and not using my vote. I use my vote to find scum, not to randomly pick a name a vote in RVS. I have engaged you, but you're choosing to accuse me of not engaging you and hiding apparently? how are you not getting this??

you're acting really fucking strange.

How so?

see above.

[Stuffed Crust]

Stuffed crust you are freaking me out. First your disengaging, then your weird wagon analysis, then the interaction with bulba that doesn't feel right and now the easy vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: stuffed crust

what doesn't feel right about our interactions with bulba? and define disengaging.

[Stuffed Crust]

AND HOLY CRAP THERE ARE VOTE: AND UNVOTE: TAGS?

#MINDBLOWN

[Stuffed Crust]

So you now have 2 pools of scum, one with 4 people in them and 1 with 2. I'm in both pools. Does this mean you are giving the other players a free pass? If you aren't, you are basically just outing possible scum so why the pools?
And does this all mean that if there is just 1 person left in a certain scumpool he is confscum to you?

Both pools are a selection of players that I see as committing to something scummy:
Pool 1 (The BBM-scum-motivated-wagon): CherryDRP, Titus, Obscurity.
Pool 2 (Awkward play independent of pool 1): Tiershift, BBM, Bulba.

Interaction with BBM has made me a lot more confident in townreading him, so he's practically out of suspicion, although I'll be a lot more critical of him if both Tier and Bulba flip town, obviously. If there's ever a single player in one of these pools while the others have been confirmed town, then it's a very likely bet that that player is scum.

Other players don't get a free pass--the pools represent how I see players interacting and who is likely to be scum out of the suspect agents in different interactions. There could be no scum in either of these pools (unlikely), but these represent my highest level of FoS.

I was hoping someone would 'hammer' and we could catch them in the act.
Now it's pretty bust.

Serious question, do you think anyone here is honestly stupid enough to hammer me without a claim?

Yes. It's early enough in the game that someone would do it.
Criticize all you want, but of course the mousetrap is going to look simple when you're not just chasing the cheese.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Hey Silver Bard. I haven't played with you before (as far as I know), so this should be interesting.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

@Silver: I'm a bit skeptical that you hop in the game, town-read me and BBM (my other town read), then proceed to bring cases against two of my scum-reads (that exist in separate pools, too). I guess I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like a calculated maneuver to make, especially since I'm on the precipice of voting either wagon.

Sometimes, I have to remind myself that not everyone is a Batman villain.

Vote: Obscurity

I'd like Obscurity to get in the game and explain motivation for being on the BBM wagon, which has since deflated and feels pretty scum-motivated.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Why don't you want to get into how crappy the Obscurity vote is assuming arguendo that the vote is crappy and that would help your case?

Because I was tired and had a lot on my plate. Seriously, you don't see it? He sets himself up to buddy Silver Bard really hard, and then he immediately votes Obscurity after SB had set the momentum for that wagon. That's not a natural progression of thought at all.

I don't like people talkin' about me when I'm sitting right here.
Where do I set up to buddy him? If anything, I voice how I'm suspicious of the moves SB made after entering the game.

If you've been following me so far, you'd also know that I've been thinking about putting pressure on folks within my pools for awhile now.
Did Silver's vote influence mine?
Sure did. My vote alone wouldn't have put pressure on Obscurity, but if you combine that with BBM's (Who I am town-reading) and Silver's, then it becomes an L-2 situation where Obscurity has to answer my questions and be transparent about his alignment.

This is called scum-hunting. It's a tactic that's often used in Mafia games in order to better determine someone's alignment before they are lynched.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I'm talking to you now, aren't I?
Also, isn't it a bit awkward to accuse me of not being engaged when there's a good chunk of players in this game who aren't even posting?
Why me, Bulba? Why meeeee?


As for my 178, you're warping my words pretty hard there. "Hey, I haven't played with you before, so this should be interesting" is not "Welcome! I'm friendly!"
Same goes for my 182.
You're significantly misreading what I've written. Words tend to mean exactly what they say.

I think you're just looking for a line of attack. :/

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I'm confident in my reads, but paranoid that you're scum trying to take advantage of that.
I've got fairly large pools as far as my current scum-reads go. It'd be easy for scum to sweep in and push a solid case on one of my incorrect reads in a pool, then set me up for a mislynch later.

That said, I felt that voting Obscurity was the right move regardless of your alignment. I want to pressure the slot. I want Obscurity to answer my questions in 182.
If you're scum, then there's no way that the rest of your team could hammer out the slot at L-2 without it being super obvious.
If you're town, then you're genuinely making a push and noticing similar tells that I am, which makes me more confident in my read.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

@Silver:

Bulba feels stubborn, but not really scum.

@Bulba:

If it was an opportunistic push, then I'd be pushing. I just want answers. As for my scum-hunting being sub-standard, well, yeah. It kinda is. Sorry?

@Tier:

I'm allowed to be a hypocrite. There's also differences in the sheeps you've made and the one I just pulled. If anything, what's important is to discern the nature of a vote/sheep, and call attention to what is problematic in it. In that regard, we're operating on a similar level.

P-EDIT: Cherry, why?
Obscurity, please answer the questions I asked.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

@Tier: The main thing I noticed is that your votes didn't seem to have much purpose other than agreeing with another player or slapping a vote. You haven't coupled questions or cases with them (at least, within the same post as the vote itself).

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

@Titus: I swear I actually read the setup this time, and that there's no chance for an SK. Vig can happen, though.
Do you still think Bulbazak is scum?

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I'm not moving my vote until Obscurity gets in here and answers my questions.
Those are two separate things, too.
I want Obscurity to play the game,
I want Obscurity to answer my questions.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

You disappeared for the longest time, only to reappear quite recently and act like you've been here the entire time, which is a lie.

I'm pretty sure I didn't do this. my first real post-RVS post engaged the game upto that point with what I felt were interesting posts in 109. for you to suggest otherwise is pretty harsh considering alot of it was gibberish. just because I wasn't here to talk about the last game and how we don't want another milllion page repeat, it means I'm scum?

you & I must have different interpretations of engaging. mine is the dictionary definition, what's yours?

You posted that you don't do RVS, and then you disappeared. You didn't pop back up until recently, at which point you said you've been engaged in the game the entire time, which is bull crap. Heck, I interacted with Fu more than you, and he's nowhere to be found atm.

And now you pop in and are trying to sell the lie that you are one of the most active players in this game and that I am strange for calling you out on your crap.

Don't even start with me. If you want to actually engage, then let's do so, but if you don't, don't try to paint me as someone who is out of touch with the game, because you will lose real fast.

what a load of fucking shit the bolded phrase is. where the fuck have I said this? and where have I said that I was engaged the entire time?

I mean, I said I was engaging the thread now at some point and you were playing hardball, but this is just decending into a chaotic scumread where you're trying to manipulate everything to suit you. Welcome to

my

scumpile, Bulba.

The context of his posts have been him lying about engaging. He has not been engaging with this game, and then he says I'm acting strangely because I'm suspecting him? Bull crap.

Let's not even get into how crappy his Obscurity vote is.

SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? I DID NOT EVER CLAIM TO BE ENGAGING THE GAME IN RVS, IN 111 I SAID I WAS TRYING TO ENGAGE THE GAME BUT YOU WERE FUCKING IGNORING ME. YOU ARE ACTING STRANGELY BECAUSE YOU ARE BULLSHITTING YOUR SCUMREAD ON US.

if I wasn't so satisfied with this obscurity vote, then you'd get it Bulba.

I mean fucking hell Varsoon doesn't even REMOTELY buddy Silver yet you're trying to fucking use that against us.

Vote FuDuzn

I actually like the Obs-vig idea.

Obscurity hasn't answered yet, so why didn't you stick to your guns?

I need to consult with Varsoon but I am scumreading Bulba hard and I think I want to vote him over Obs.

[Stuffed Crust]

Ugh.
V/LA excuse is a V/LA excuse is a V/LA excuse.

Obscurity,
Please catch up and play, though. The pace of this game is tedious.

unvote

Talking to Mac about Bulba.

[Stuffed Crust]

@Tier: I agree that it's pretty weird that Titus is insistent on there being a vig, but I've analyzed (and indeed overanalyzed it) and figured that it makes sense for either alignment to push that.
So, like with most discussion of PRs, I'm not gonna touch it.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Don't remember my reasoning for townreading him before, he could be scum, especially with the lurkadurking.

Who are you talking about here?


Also, deadline is forever away, so it's not like we can't wait for a player to get into the game.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I like you Fu, you get random hard-ons and you're cool about it.

On the real, I think you raise good points about Bulba's over-defensive play, but I don't really know if that's alignment indicative. Mac thinks so, and is all for the Bulba wagon, and I guess my hangup is that I can see motivation for most of his play as either scum or town.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

@Titus: I think the mention of the accidental hammer is weird, but
What's your issues with the post?

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Mark my words, this BB boy ain't right.

I could just be a cool PR who wants to use his power before he's outed yknow

Oh right Fu was the power role or scum.

Forgot about that whole ordeal.

Sorry I think I've overloaded myself lately so that might be a part of me being wierd.

BBM, why are you so intent on softing/outing PR's? Even if you are a PR, outing yourself like this on D1 is suicidal.
There's no reflexive/immune roles in the setup (Bulletproof, Paranoid Gun Owner, etc), so the only reason I could see for doing this is if you're a VT trying to draw a night kill. Even then, scum could run a similar gambit and be like, "GUESS MY PR SOFT GAMBIT WAS TOO OBVIOUS" to explain how they didn't die at night. Ultimately, it's anti-town. It opens a big can of WIFOM that's exploitable on all ends.

This is why I don't like talking about PRs. It bugs me that other people are so obsessed with them--looking at you, Titus. I don't understand why you'd be acting like a Vig is in the setup and trying to draw the vig shot to Obscurity. It's against town utility, because now scum will avoid shooting Obscurity if Obscurity is town, and if Obscurity is scum, you've given Obs a blanket to hide behind. If Obscurity doesn't die, then the response is easily, "Guess there's no Vig in the setup and scum doesn't want to double-up on the kill 'cus they figure a vig would shoot me" or whatever. Again, it's against town utility to try to direct/out the vig shot like that.

That's my major beef with you guys right now. Shut up about PRs. It's not helping, and it's against your wincon since It makes me really suspicious of you--and that's the last thing you want as scum or town.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Hey-hey,

The Varsoon head of this awesome hydra is on V/LA until JANUARY 25th

I'm visiting my family for the holiday break. All I have is my laptop and other people's computers, but I'll be spending a lot of time away from the computer because of friends and family. I really enjoy this game, and I'd love to keep pace and have things be active (you guys should keep it active, too!). You're all pretty talented players, so I hope that I can keep up in my state of Limited Access.
I'll check in as much as I can, and some nights I will be very active, but don't expect the same levels of activity as normal.

<3

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

You're thinking about stupid things I say way too much

Mafia is basically a game of thinking too much about stupid things people say.


-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Being in the game and interacting with people. You just recently did this.

I am still struggling to follow your logic here, but I'm past caring because I'm still thinking you're scum.

[Stuffed Crust]

@Silverbard

: Can you elaborate a bit on why you are town-reading the names you have provided? You are pretty thorough in your scum reads, but your town reads feel a bit understated. I'd like to know what reasons you have for town-reading those slots.

Also, I get bad vibes from Bulba's tunnel on me, but that's for some pretty obvious reasons,


I don't know how Mac feels, but I don't want to lynch outside of our scum pool.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Vote: Obscurity

[Stuffed Crust]

I think we're getting a scum lynch regardless, because his most recent post hasn't filled me with the feeling that this is a mislynch.

[Stuffed Crust]

That was eerie. But yeah, I am around, just on limited access. And Mac should be here pretty much as much as he usually is.

Anyway, consider my vote on FuDuzn until he gets in here and explains things. I want to see what he has to say to the wagon and accusations building on him. IMO, it's pretty damning.

[Stuffed Crust]

I read page 17 (sorry I've been ill!) and really want to lynch Fu. his reaction to bulba claiming doc, and not being cc'd is terrible. I want to hammer but first we need to hear from Cherry who hasnt posted in 7 days...

@mod - requesting a prod on the heads of the CDP hydra?

Fu - if you dont trust Bulba then you don't trust his claim, no?

[Stuffed Crust]

Varsoon what happened to your pools of scum?
Aren't I scum with cherry or titus now?

They still exist, but the shifts in game have changed things a bit. As for you, you used to be in the pool of BBM, Bulba, and FuDuzn. However, since there was no NK and FuDuzn and Bulba both claimed to have protected BBM, it changed that.
That pool is now FuDuzn, Bulbazak, and BBM. You might ask why BBM was added to the pool once again, and it's because I thought over it. Certainly, I over-thought it. If BBM was scum, it makes eons of sense for him to NOT KILL at night, then immediately come into thread and ask who protected in order to out any possible PRs. It's a risky move, but it also can garner plenty of mislynches and inform night kills. Obviously, not as likely as one of Fu/Bulba just being scum, but that's what it is.

The other pool has changed, too. It was Cherry, Titus, and Obscurity, but Obscurity's corpse confirms the slot as town. Since Cherry was on the Obscurity wagon, it looks bad for that slot (obviously), but your (tiershift's) hammer on it was pretty weird. I have put you in this pool (so you're correct, awkwardly enough), because of your interaction with the BBM wagon and the Obscurity wagon.

So, summarizing all this nonsense:
I still have two pools where scum must be:
Pool 1 (Counterclaiming Doc Pool): FuDuzn > Bulba = BBM.
Pool 2 (Scummy Wagon Interaction Pool): CherryDP > Titus > TierShift

For the most part, Tier, I'm null on you. You're much less committed to early votes, which makes your BBM interaction not as heavy as the others, and while your hammer was awkward for me, it's not something to damn you over. Your play otherwise is a bit all over the place, but it doesn't have the pacing of most scum. I can't really tell if you're sheepy town or clever scum, which isn't a good thing.

Dunno about Mac, as our QT has been quiet since his Birthday. :3

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Yes, vote.me......when bulba is still out there.

VOTE: bulba

Can there be a third party in this set up? I feel as if big balls reeks of it.

Oh jesus, you're right.
Okay, now I feel like an idiot.

I read the above as

Yes, me. Vote me.... when bulba is still out there.

As in, Fu was replying to BBM saying that he protected BBM.

Thanks for pointing that out. I've been reading this game wrong since the day started, apparently. :l

[Stuffed Crust]

Well, then why the fuck does everyone want to lynch FuDuzn if he isn't a counter-claimed Doctor? Posts like Fu's 415 made me sure that was the case. Now I feel really dumb.

[Stuffed Crust]

Anyway, consider my vote on FuDuzn until he gets in here and explains things. I want to see what he has to say to the wagon and accusations building on him. IMO, it's pretty damning.

What is pretty damning?

Now I understand why you were confused when I wrote that. I thought he was a counter-claimed doc. D:

[Stuffed Crust]

Brb, killing myself for being this stupid.

[Stuffed Crust]

Updated pools would be the same, but for different reasons. Instead of the counterclaim fueling the Fu/Bulba deal, it's PoE, like BBM said. Fu's not as strong of a pick for scum out of that pool anymore, though. It'd look more like Fu = Bulba >BBM.

Even then, ugh, I feel a lot less conviction now that I realize I've been reading the game wrong for the last 4 pages at least.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Varsoon, are you saying that bulba is as scummy as fu?
Why is CherryDP scummier than Titus?

Bard, there's one scum in pool 1 and one in pool 2.

Cherry's been dodgy and not nearly as active as I expect from the slot, coupled with being sheepy/scummy in vote-patterns.

Am I the only person who plays this game and expects EVERYONE to be lying, ESPECIALLY when it comes to PRs?
As far as I am concerned, people only claim because it gives them power over game flow.
Scum care way more about power over game flow than town.
Even with something like Cop, scum-claiming one-shot cop to 'clear' a town isn't unheard of.

Regardless, I've got to actually take some time to thoroughly read the game, because I'm probably still interpreting it wrong.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Today's push on FuDuzn happened way to fast given that he isn't a counter-claimed cop. There was way too much willingness to push the wagon through, and it makes me uneasy as fuck.

I'm really not happy with anyone's reasons for voting FuDuzn. To me, Fu feels like weak, ambivalent town (until recent posts, which show a depth of understanding and interaction with the game) more than bumbling, obvious scum.

Also, what scum claims VT when there's 3/4 players ready to vote his wagon?

Especially in a game this small?

[Stuffed Crust]

Could everyone give their updated readlists btw?

Titus, BB, FuDuzn (if he confirms or corrects me) and mine are pretty recent, so won't need new ones here unless anyone feel the need to update it. For SC, CDP, TS and Bulba it would be nice to see some reads.

A lot of my reads are situational at this point. If X flips town or scum, then Y is cleared or more suspicious.

TOWN: Titus

Stuffed Crust -

I got a weird role PM where the mod confirms me as town, but only to me. :3

BBmolla -

Town. His play coming out of D1 was really strong and now we've got a cop confirm. Even if TSB is lying about cop (not likely), then BBM is still likely town.

Obscurity -

Mod Confirmed, only innocents are corpses, etc.

NULL-LEAN TOWN:

The Silver Bard -

Claim is very town, but play has been very straightforward, with interest in sussing out scum. Engages players, etc.

FuDuzn -

Claim is town, the way he handled his L-1 situation reflects town sensibilities in how he gives parsed out, informed reads and his ideas on the game even though others oppose those ideas. Wagon was pushed suspiciously fast for him to be scum.


NULL-LEAN SCUM:

Bulbazak -

Opportunistic claim as either alignment, questionable and tunnel-ish play throughout. Mac's scum-reading this.

Titus -

Awkward interaction with trying to draw the vig-kill on a now-confirmed townie, don't know how to feel about her play re-FuDuzn.

TierShift -

Too lynch-happy and sheepy for my liking. Bad hammer the other day. Goes with the flow of the game, doesn't stick out.

SCUM:

CherryDrP -

Same reasons as Tiershift, but also isn't active at all.

VOTE: CherryDrP for now. At the very least, the slot needs pressure. At most, rope.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Aw man, I fucked up my formatting and it says Titus after TOWN:

Titus is definitely in the null-lean scum pile.

This is what I get for abusing copy/paste.

[Stuffed Crust]

Assuming that
BBM, TSB, FuDuzn, me, and Bulbazak are town,
We could lynch Cherry, Titus, and Tier and still get a win.

[Stuffed Crust]

<_<
I'm just bitter that the same thing worked against me in Xenogears, is all.

[Stuffed Crust]

C9-- is such a dangerous game to false-claim in, just like C9++ is. You'd have to really study the game. You could only fake-claim strongly if you were scum, since you'd know the letters scum had and could claim anything within those margins. So, I'm pretty much where I either have to believe all the claims or if I don't, there's scum there.

[Stuffed Crust]

CherryDP needs to get in the game.
BBM, you can't just coast on your soft-conf status. If this place is dead, liven it up. It's not like people are going to wagon you. If anything, you can now take the biggest risks.
Titus, what -are- your reads?

[Stuffed Crust]

Frustrating: People sass me, but votes don't come my way. I feel like I'm being strung up without the rope involved. I guess I get to live another day since I'm such a prime and unclaimed candidate for lynching.

Reassuring: Tier drilling Fu instead of hammering.

[Stuffed Crust]

My holiday lasts until the 25th. My V/LA reflects it. For the sake of clarity, just announce a V/LA on the more 'limited access' end of it.

I'd hold you to that beer promise, Fu--but I can't really imagine a game where Bulba and Titus are both town. If that's the case, we're pretty fucked.

I posted reads recently, they are mostly the same. For sake of clarity, here they are in the same format:

Town

BBM
FuDuzn

Null/Town

Silver Bard
Tiershift

Null/Scum

Bulbazak
Titus

Scum

CherryDrP

[Stuffed Crust]

Why does Fu keep moving up and how is he higher than bard?
Would you say he's the same level of town as BB is?

SC you townreading Fu so strongly creeps me the fuck out.

Bard's play is solid, but I don't give a damn about claims. Fu's play strikes me as very town, especially in his claim and L-1 behavior. He's responding to pressure in a way that feels he's genuinely pushing his cases, beliefs, and so on. The speed of Fu's wagon compounded by the fact that EVERYONE seems to want to lynch him is further proof that he's likely town. It feels like a mislynch to me, so I'd rather focus on other players and discern their relationships and approaches to play.

I judge players solely on play, not on claims.
BBM's town via play and PoE on the claims--not because of the claims themselves, but because of all possible situations in which they could be true or false.

SC's reads are wierd as shit.

You're right, I should just parrot what everyone else reads, my bad. D:

[Stuffed Crust]

SC don't you agree that Fu's latest posts have been a whole lot of AtE? How would you expect scum to act when they don't have any defense left?

No, there's a good deal of his own content there too.
Scum flail. Scum lurk. Scum get caught. Everything that Fu is doing feels town to me.

@Titus: There were multiple parts to the 'if Bulba is town we are fucked'. Don't misrep me, yo. I wrote "If Bulba

and

Titus are both town, we're fucked." I guess if you know you're town, then that narrows it, but you wouldn't expect scum-Titus to claim scum, because you're not Varsoon.

@BBM: It's been Varsoon straight up for awhile. I haven't been signing, sorry. Last mac post was 233, I believe. He's been busy for the holidays.

I'm holding onto my conviction of Titus, Tier, and Cherry as my selected scumpool. If there's no scum there, then we are truly fucked.
But no one listen to Varsoon! That guy's nuts!

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Titus, I think we need to talk, because I'm tired of internally waffling on you.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I hate claiming, Bulbazak. I think it's the scummiest thing a player can do.

Do you really think it'll help us with PoE right now?

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

People only claim in order to leverage power within the game. In essence, a claim means very little to nothing unless a mod can confirm it.
That said, this is an open setup, and I've been mulling over it for a long time, so I ought as well.
I'm a Roleblocker.
On Night 1, I blocked Bulbazak, which is why I've had him so low on my reads for this long. However, my block doesn't damn the slot, since I could've been roleblocked or scum could've no killed.
On Night 2, I blocked Titus, but this doesn't mean anything either. With two scum, even if Titus was scum, another could have delivered the kill, or with 0 Ts, it could've been a strongman kill.

If everyone is faithfully claiming, then we should have all four letters now, but there's a damn good chance that scum is a 0 or 1 T group.

Now that I'm outed, I'll die tonight if I don't roleblock the right target. If scum is a 0 T group, then I'm going to be blocked and killed regardless. This is why I've held off on it, because my role is strong. I'd rather rely on my play independent of that during the day, and hope not to get killed at night. With it in the open, I'm pretty fucked.

[Stuffed Crust]

I was really hoping we'd narrow it to 1 scum, then I could block them and win us the game that way. :/

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I was really hoping we'd narrow it to 1 scum, then I could block them and win us the game that way. :/

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I thought Fu was a counter-claimed doctor AND Bard claimed One-shot cop, which means he was fucked. Imagine this scenario:
I know I'm two letters.
Two people claim single letter roles.
I think that one of those two people is counterclaiming a claimed one-letter role.
There can't be five letters.

I figured one of the following was true:
FuDuzn was part of a single or double letter scumteam. He claims doctor. Two other people claim one-shot roles, one of which as a counter claim. There exists no world where both Fu and Bulba are their roles. Fu is probably lying.
or
FuDuzn is a doctor (one-shot, after the claims from both Bulba and Silver), and one of Silver/Bulba is lying.

Of course, I figured it had to be the first one (too risky to counterclaim as scum in this setup), and so I was pretty set on Fu as scum.
When that turned out to not be the case, I started to wonder if you made up the doctor claim because I roleblocked you successfully. It'd make sense--a 1T scumteam gets roleblocked N1. They then claim one-shot doctor to cover up the shot.

You'll notice that I was particularly awkward about the claims, wondering if there was actually a no-kill or some sort of similar gambit meant to draw claims.

When Silver Bard brought it up the other day, I kept my mouth shut because I don't have a death wish. There's a possibility that Silver Bard was fishing for a claim, and I didn't want to tip my hand then, especially because we had a pretty good majority.

So, onto today? How does my claim help us PoE?

[Stuffed Crust]

If anything, me claiming upsets the previous two claims made, which doesn't help us very much from my perspective. All it does is enable scum to kill with knowledge they wouldn't have had otherwise, which is why I hate claiming.

[Stuffed Crust]

C9-- is such a dangerous game to false-claim in, just like C9++ is. You'd have to really study the game. You could only fake-claim strongly if you were scum, since you'd know the letters scum had and could claim anything within those margins. So, I'm pretty much where I either have to believe all the claims or if I don't, there's scum there.

Going to quote this because I'm reiterating it.
I'm put in a weird position:
SilverBard and Bulbazak are actually the roles they claim to be, but this means there's a scum roleblocker, so we get nothing
or
One of SilverBard and Bulbazak is lying about their claim, which means the scum team is 1T, still has a roleblocker, so we get nothing


I can't fathom a game where you're both lying.
In the second scenario, which I've been considering for awhile now, it makes plenty of sense for Bard to have been fishing for roleblocker in order to leverage a lynch on Bulba. In the same light, I could've just -actually- blocked Bulba and it'd make sense for him to claim doctor to explain away the nokill.

The first scenario could still be true though, and in that case, the scum team would have a strongman shot (but didn't use it N1?), and all the claims could be true.

So, ugh, I'm still not getting how this helps us, Bulba.

[Stuffed Crust]

New Pools:

Scenario 1 Pool (No Liars): Cherry, Tiershift, or Titus
Scenario 2 Pool (Liars): Bulba or Fu with a partner of Titus, Tiershift, or Cherry.

Humdiddly.

[Stuffed Crust]

In BOTH scenarios, my claim gets me killed, since the enemy team has a roleblock AND a kill to use at night, which is why I've been avoiding claiming and been suspicious of people who've tried to out PRs.

P-EDIT: One person on the team can kill while the other blocks, right?
As for those three, Cherry has been on both the lynch wagons. By the same right, Tiershift's had really terrible end-of-day wagon interaction (the hammer on the Obscurity wagon and the last minute WK). Titus has been suspicious, but wasn't on the Obscurity wagon. I'd arrange my list as Cherry > Tiershift > Titus. Cherry's ambivalence towards the game coupled with wagon interaction has been really scummy and I'm blown away by the fact Cherry hasn't had a significant amount of pressure/a big wagon on their slot yet. Tiershift's interactions are worse that Cherry's, but the play Tier has displayed strikes me as genuine and a bit unconfident/waffly town. Titus' actual play is suspicious to me (although I feel better about her VT claim now), but her play today has felt town--especially post 707.

[Stuffed Crust]

Ah, I feel less shit about my claim then. Still, wouldn't I have two players to choose out of for my block?

I could've sworn that Titus did on D2. I guess I got that from all the PoE that I was figuring based on Titus' interactions regarding the claims and potential claim fishing.

[Stuffed Crust]

Speaking of PoE, shouldn't we look at the interactions between Cherry, Titus, and Tiershift?

[Stuffed Crust]

Cherry's championed Titus as a scum-read, and distanced very strongly from Tier. Most akward thing was including Titus in the town-list and Tier in the scumlist in post 527.

Titus' interactions with Tiershift make them look like peas in a pod, and Titus has been calling Cherry scum for awhile without every really pushing the wagon. There've been some hiccups in Titus' town-read of Tier, which has put Tier right about Cherry in Titus' scumpool. Even then, Titus has been constantly talking to and asking Tier questions. Early questions about Cherry ping a little to me, though.

Tiershift has been pushing Titus as scum for a long time now, and had an early push on Cherry but then kinda just left Cherry in the scumpool without pushing on it. Also made weird questions about Cherry that ping to me.

[Stuffed Crust]

So...
Cherry: Scum-Pushing Titus, Scumreading Tier.
Titus: Scum-Pushing Cherry, Weird Interaction/Scumreading Tier.
Tier: Scum-Pushing Titus, Scum-reading Cherry.

Dunno how much this helps.

[Stuffed Crust]

have been suspecting Bulba for awhile, which is why he was always low on my reads-lists.
I feel like Cherry is the lowest common denominator in either of the DCBB or BBCT scenarios. I also really didn't like that Cherry tried to throw suspicion onto me, but I guess that's the fear of having a townblock form from the claimed PRs.
VOTE: CherryDP

[Stuffed Crust]

Makes sense.

unvote

[Stuffed Crust]

The safest bet would be to RB Bulba, I think.
It'd be the only sure-fire way to expose a scenario where Bulba is lying, and if Bulba really is a one-shot Doc then it isn't inhibiting him in any way.
This way, with a scum-flip on Cherry, we can move into the next day and confirm Bulba.

[Stuffed Crust]

Then I'm blocking Cherry tonight, no matter what the flip on Bulba is.
VOTE: Bulbazak

We've already covered why I claimed D3, Cherry.

[Stuffed Crust]

I'm not going to vote for anyone outside of CherryDP/Bulba, same with my block. If we get a scum flip from either of them, my block and confirm the other's alignment.

[Stuffed Crust]

My block can* confirm.
Just got back from the dentist, still a bit out of it.

I still think that Cherry is most possible scum in all scenarios. Bulba is only scum if he's lying, which doesn't cover nearly as many bases.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Mac hasn't been in our hydra QT in a long time. He recently apologized for that. Let me PM his account and ask him. His last reads that he gave me were about halfway into D2.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

I hate claiming, Bulbazak. I think it's the scummiest thing a player can do.

Do you really think it'll help us with PoE right now?

-V

People only claim in order to leverage power within the game. In essence, a claim means very little to nothing unless a mod can confirm it.
T

You should've listened to me~~~
Good game, folks. Sorry for having to be such a shitlord, but I waaaas scum.

-V

[Stuffed Crust]

Yattai~
I love you all,
And Mac, you're a cool guy and a great scummer, so I would love to keep playing with you.

Honestly, I thought I was screwed after I claimed, but that I would at least end up keeping Titus from being scum-read.
When you guys all started defending me and explaining my claim could be right, etc, I decided to just lurk and let you self-destruct with as little input as possible.

I believe that there's never a reason to claim unprompted.

@DBK: I'd be down for a See Nine Finale. Please don't make me town in it, though. :3

[Stuffed Crust]

I'll fool you next time!

[Stuffed Crust]

Oh, I -never- would have claimed if I knew there was a possible vig in the setup.

[Stuffed Crust]

-Never believe someone who wants to convince you of something. Always come to your own conclusions.
-Never believe anyone's claim. Ever.

S'bout it.

[Stuffed Crust]

I wanted to rush a win, and it'd give me a bit more power to do so. If it didn't work out, Titus could bus me for towncred.

Nah, just get more confident in your own thought process and so on. Sometimes people's points will make a lot of sense, and sometimes they are right, but most of the time people are trying to convince you of something for reasons that only benefit that person.

A good player can always make his play consistent with his claims. Town should only ever need to claim when it is absolutely necessary (Claims at L-1, Mason, Cop if their investigated town are at L-1, etc). S'bout it.