Micro 269: See Nine Minus Minus (Game Over!)

[Bulbazak]

Vote Stuffed Crust

This game is not going over 100 pages like the last one.

[Bulbazak]

Why aren't they voting yet?

[Bulbazak]

Vote Stuffed Crust

This game is not going over 100 pages like the last one.

i have varsoon leashed bulba, don't you worry!

Why isnt Varsoon spamming yet?

Why are you asking an answered question? Yeah you are trying to create confusion, scumdar is pinging you scum!

To be fair, Cherry did miss things quite often in the previous game, including me putting Varsoon at L-1.

P-edit: Super big fos bulbazak for asking the obvious question for towncred!

Then why did no one else think to pressure them on it?

[Bulbazak]

You could always vote your scum buddy, Tier.

[Bulbazak]

Watcha got, Fu?

[Bulbazak]

Yunovotecherry

Because they won the last game for town.

[Bulbazak]

Molla looks like scum.

Why do you think this?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, liking Tier better now. Still don't like that Stuffed does not want to engage. Fu, what's with the hard on for me? This seems to be more than just standard RVS BS.

[Bulbazak]

Explain Fu town.

[Bulbazak]

Is the playerlist very much the same as here?

Varsoon, Titus, Cherry, and myself are the only players who are the same.

Also, BBMolla is town. Titus is probably town as well.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why is Molla town?

His easygoing attitude and the way he flows through the game. He's not sheeping just to get on someone's good side, and he's not trying to force a case on anybody. He's just letting his vote go where it may and seeing what he gets. It may seem lazy, but I've learned that this is how Molla-town operates. Sometimes he's seen as scummy for it, sometimes as obv. town, but I do know that this is his townplay.

[Bulbazak]

Where the hell is Obscumity?

Ditto with Stuffed Crust.

[Bulbazak]

Speak of the devil...

bulba let's talk about your vote and why you're not doing anything with it.

I am. I'm voting scum.

[Bulbazak]

nah you're definitely not.

i mean you throw around accusations of no engagement when clearly neither of us was here to address it and now i'm trying to engage and you're blocking me out. how can i work with this?

If by engage me, you mean accuse me of doing nothing with my vote, then you are doing a bang up job. By the way, I am doing something with my vote. I'm voting a scumread. Guess who hasn't been engaging with the game? That's right, you.

Speak of the devil...

are you going anywhere with this?

Not really. Are you going to make a big deal of it?

[Bulbazak]

@Everyone: Can we drop the "X looks Town" farce? We're 5 pages in. I'd rather not have a player get a free coasting pass this early.

What's wrong with townreading someone? I understand it's early, but it's not uncommon to get a townread at this point in the game, just like it's not uncommon to get a scumread. It's not like we're saying that they will get a free pass for the rest of the game, just that we think they are not scum. What's wrong with that?

[Bulbazak]

come on then bulba, what do you want to talk about?

Why aren't you getting involved with this game? This isn't like you at all.

were we not engaged with the game when you voted us in the first post?

Seeing as you disappeared soon after that, nope.

you're acting really fucking strange.

How so?

Or town PR, one of those.

Why would you even mention this?

[Bulbazak]

Ah, but I

don't

do RVS. I'm a much more reactionary player. I'd rather get into the game once it starts rolling instead of contribute a lot of meaningless nothing and votes that don't have weight. This, in itself, isn't scummy. I've done it as both alignments plenty of times.

Not doing RVS is different than disappearing and not interacting with anybody in the early game. That's a cop out.

Also-also, thanks for ruining my gambit.
I was hoping someone would 'hammer' and we could catch them in the act.
Now it's pretty bust.

Seriously?! Do you really think anybody would hammer after you'd announced in big bold letters that he was at L-1 and nobody should hammer? There's no way that's a reaction test, as no one in their right mind would do so. You just got your hand caught in the cookie jar and just wrote it away as "lol, reaction test". Not to mention that Molla and I are both big about PLing those who quickhammer without giving intent and time for a claim/final reads.

Bulba's had less furor than you on his push for me, which makes me much more suspicious of him than you.

I've been out of it the past few days. Besides, you were staying in the shadows until recently, and my play involves questioning my scumreads.

I am involved with the game. you're choosing not to see it.

You disappeared for the longest time, only to reappear quite recently and act like you've been here the entire time, which is a lie.

honestly bulba, please take a second here. you voted us in the

first

post. how can I disappear "soon after" that? I came in and said I don't do RVS and suddenly you're accusing me of not being involved in the game and not engaging you and not using my vote. I use my vote to find scum, not to randomly pick a name a vote in RVS. I have engaged you, but you're choosing to accuse me of not engaging you and hiding apparently? how are you not getting this??

You posted that you don't do RVS, and then you disappeared. You didn't pop back up until recently, at which point you said you've been engaged in the game the entire time, which is bull crap. Heck, I interacted with Fu more than you, and he's nowhere to be found atm. And now you pop in and are trying to sell the lie that you are one of the most active players in this game and that I am strange for calling you out on your crap. Don't even start with me. If you want to actually engage, then let's do so, but if you don't, don't try to paint me as someone who is out of touch with the game, because you will lose real fast.

[Bulbazak]

Post 134 is bad and I want answers for that.

What exactly is bad? I can't respond if I don't know what you're talking about.

[Bulbazak]

your vote was an rvs and didn't require responding to

My vote's been serious for awhile now.

your statement about not getting into the game is vague.

How so? I've been exceedingly clear about SC's actions this game. He started the game stating he doesn't do RVS, disappeared, and then came back stating he had been engaging the entire time, which is a lie. What don't you understand?

This is a strawman scumread.

What the crap is a strawman scumread?

[Bulbazak]

A strawman scumread is a scumread that has no substance. Much like a strawman argument but the argument is a scumread.

Me thinks you don't know what a strawman is.

What do you mean that SC isn't engaging. I see questions and responses. Thus your engage is a strawman.

Do you now? I see words but no substance.

[Bulbazak]

The context of his posts have been him lying about engaging. He has not been engaging with this game, and then he says I'm acting strangely because I'm suspecting him? Bull crap.

Let's not even get into how crappy his Obscurity vote is.

[Bulbazak]

Why don't you want to get into how crappy the Obscurity vote is assuming arguendo that the vote is crappy and that would help your case?

Because I was tired and had a lot on my plate. Seriously, you don't see it? He sets himself up to buddy Silver Bard really hard, and then he immediately votes Obscurity after SB had set the momentum for that wagon. That's not a natural progression of thought at all.

[Bulbazak]

I don't like people talkin' about me when I'm sitting right here.

Then why don't you stop sitting on the sidelines and talk to people?

Where do I set up to buddy him?

Hey Silver Bard. I haven't played with you before (as far as I know), so this should be interesting.


-V

"Welcome to the game! Look how friendly I am!"

Sometimes, I have to remind myself that not everyone is a Batman villain.

"I just got done being 'suspicious' of you, but already I'm preparing myself to think of you as town. Let me vote for the person you are and see how this goes."

[Bulbazak]

I'm talking to you now, aren't I?
Also, isn't it a bit awkward to accuse me of not being engaged when there's a good chunk of players in this game who aren't even posting?
Why me, Bulba? Why meeeee?

Because your scumhunting is substandard compared to what I'd expect coming from you. Fu is probably scum. And Obscurity is just not active, which is not alignment indicative in the slightest. That makes this an opportunistic push on a lurker slot, which makes your vote even more suspect.

[Bulbazak]

Why is Fu probably scum?

Because he dropped a RVS vote and then lurked away all of his problems and is not addressing anything that comes his way. Heck, I asked him this early in the game, and I still haven't heard from him regarding it:

Fu, what's with the hard on for me? This seems to be more than just standard RVS BS.

If people are going to call Obscurity scum for lurking and not addressing questions addressed to him, they need to do so to Fu as well, perhaps even more so, since his play feels very surface anyway.

unvote

That wagon wasn't going anywhere anyway.

That's it? You're not going to address anything else? And what's with only checking in every 3 days anyway?

@Bulba:

If it was an opportunistic push, then I'd be pushing. I just want answers. As for my scum-hunting being sub-standard, well, yeah. It kinda is. Sorry?

Fair enough.

Unvote

[Bulbazak]

No bringing up ongoing games! Seriously Molla, you should know better.

I also don't think Obscurity's activity is alignment related. I think it's just getting in the way of scumhunting. I find Fu more likely to be scum, and I sincerely doubt both scum are lurking.

[Bulbazak]

Obs partner is Bulbazak.

I'm all ears.

Also, you didn't address Titus or Fu.

[Bulbazak]

Well for one, your post 16 bugged me. Your tried to buddy is from an RVS reason.

No, I just know how you operate, whereas Tier does not.

Second you're strongly scum reading Fu but still vote Stuffed Crust for, idk why.

I'm no longer voting him, but I did have a scumread on him, and I explained why several times.

Its like youre trying to save obs fmpov by not voting the player who is similar to obs.

How would that work exactly? I'm not voting Fu, because I have no interest in placing a vote on him at this point in time. I'm more interested in what Ob's response will be.

[Bulbazak]

I'm also waiting to see what Obscurity has to say. Your point?

[Bulbazak]

Vote FuDuzn

I actually like the Obs-vig idea.

[Bulbazak]

you & I must have different interpretations of engaging. mine is the dictionary definition, what's yours?

Being in the game and interacting with people. You just recently did this.

Mac's reaction, however, is reminding me of Jungle Republic. Granted, he didn't OMGUS like this in that game, but I can't see this coming from Mac-scum. It also shows that he's genuinely out of sorts, and his reaction counteracts Varsoon's nullness.

Vote FuDuzn

I actually like the Obs-vig idea.

Obscurity hasn't answered yet, so why didn't you stick to your guns?

Read the sentence following the vote. If you still can't get it, look at the post in context.

I hate the use of the word actually here. It conveys a sense of shock, as if ideas from me automatically suck. On day 1, you have no rationale for such a belief.

I never said anything about your ideas sucking. I was just saying that the Obscurity vig. idea was a good one and made my wanting to wait useless.

Why were you content to repeat Day 1 Bulba?

What are you talking about?

Why all this speculation about the vig?
There is a 29% chance there is a 1-shot vig and a 5% chance that there is a full vig, if my math is correct.
Are you all saying a 1-shot vig should shoot already?
Are you ready to let an obscurity lynch go on the slim possibility that there is a vig?

I really get the feeling I'm missing something here.

A vig's primary job should be to take care of those that town should not be wasting their time on. Obscurity is a prime example, since most of the reasons for wanting him lynched fall into PL territory. It is much better for town to ignore him, and focus on finding scum, allowing the vig to take care of him for them.

Bulba, my 'hard on' for you was more random than anything, with a bit of reaction testing and all of that. The fact that you are throwing me in the 'probably scum' pile is troubling. Don't you think it is possible that I just haven't been around much the last few days? Are you afraid of me?

I find anybody who ignores questions or plants a vote and disappears suspicious. I didn't find your actions genuine, and when I tried to engage you on them, you blew me off and disappeared. Why should it then be surprising to you that I have you in my scumreads? Why are you trying to paint such actions as scummy or suspect, instead of taking responsibility for them and trying to do better?

He is honestly afraid of being lynched(generally speaking scum are more afraid of this), so he is projecting suspicion and doubt on to me.probably since he feels I won't be around much to defend myself.

I have a whole wiki page that tells you you're wrong.

Stuffed, it is one thing to be at L-1 and to get defensive, but he only had a couple votes and his reaction was to crank up the omgus to eleven. Imo that doesn't come from a town mindset.

I've had a scumread on you for a long time. I just had a stronger one in the form of SC that I pursued. Why are you trying to paint it as OMGUS? And "crank it up to eleven"? I didn't even push it as hard as I could have, and I even held off on you to pursue some other leads. Frankly, I'm not the one being defensive here.

You seem out of sorts, your faux pas of referring to an ongoing game is a big part of what I am talking about.

That's a low blow Fu, and it reeks of desperation.

We need more Fu votes! He enters in, doesn't try to scumhunt, and instead proceeds to attack and fling mud at anybody suspecting him. These are not town actions, and they need to be met with rope.

[Bulbazak]

Nice deflection. You're not getting off that easily.

[Bulbazak]

Also, if bulbazak thinks obs can be vig bait, why didnt he think of it for Fu when they were similar?

Because Ob's lynch is about activity, whereas for Fu, I had other reasons to find him scummy. You lynch scumreads and vig liabilities.

BBMolla said he was voting someone who he believed was town. Town don't do that, especially in that playerbase.

Town does this all the time. It's called a policy lynch, and agree or disagree with it, there's nothing inherently scummy about it. Scum will be more likely to justify the lynch and try to come up with a way that makes said person scum. Town is more likely to go, "Might be town, but I don't want them in endgame.".

[Bulbazak]

Also bulba, why am I more than just a liability and what is scummy about me?

Obscurity is just not posting much period. Meanwhile, you made an RVS vote which you sat on and avoided explaining, and your actions surrounding them didn't feel genuine. It was like you were putting on a show. Then you come back in, and instead of reorienting yourself, like you would if you were town, you instead start attacking your attackers, while simultaneously still not scumhunting.

[Bulbazak]

Explain me attacking my attackers.

What's so hard to explain? I voice suspicion of you and vote you. Molla voices suspicion of you. You enter back into the game and proceed to sling mud at myself and Molla, and then do nothing else.

Specifically point out where I 'attacked' anybody besides pointing out why I think you are scum.

That Molla attack was low, and is essentially the mafia equivalent of smelling blood in the water.

Also, it was a rvs vote......initially it meant nothing. Why are you insisting on a reason for an rvs vote? Why did you vet so worried about it? It didn't mean anything until you made it mean something. You asking for a reason seems like a person never playing mafia before.

So are you scum or a newbie?

I wasn't worried about it. In fact, I ignored it for awhile. But the way you were pushing it made it seem like something more than RVS, which was when I asked about it. A question, I may add, that you have continuously dodged. I don't see why you'd do that as town, or why you'd come back into the game and do absolutely zero scumhunting, instead choosing to get really defensive about my calling you scum. And let's not get into the constant deflection. That "scum or newbie" question was beyond belief.

@Bulba, I am aware of what a policy lynch is. However, they are not done on town reads IMO. They are done on people that are unknown and dangerous.

They are done on townreads, but normally those townreads are coming from a recognition of style, not necessarily play. Town absolutely will PL townreads if they feel that those players are detrimental to their wincon. Most of the time, though, such players end up being compromise lynches. As much as you don't want to accept it, it happens all the time.

2) How the hell can anyone be legitimately townreading Obscurity at this point?

I thought your attack on Molla was because he was wanting to lynch an Obscurity townread?

[Bulbazak]

Molla, who do you think is likely to be Fu's buddy? I seriously doubt a Fu/Obscurity scum team.

[Bulbazak]

I'm the 1-shot doctor. I protected BBMolla.

Vote FuDuzn

Let's make this happen.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like no more votes on Fu until after everybody's checked in, and we find out whether there is a friendly neighbor or not.

[Bulbazak]

I'll have to believe the claim, but keep in mind that in 65% of setups there is not a doc. I'd say it makes a high risk high reward fakeclaim for scum. Just as a reminder that we have no way to tell if a doc claim is fake in a majority of cases.

I see what you did there.

[Bulbazak]

I'll go more into reads once everyone has checked in. I think I might be able to figure this out via PoE.

[Bulbazak]

I think only the Varsoon head is V/LA.

[Bulbazak]

And that's actually more limited access. They should be on before too long.

[Bulbazak]

I kind of want to know what case on me is all about? Just something quick that gives us a general gist about why I the scummiest compared to others.

I don't buy your RVS vote being an RVS vote. You sat on it too long and pushed it too hard, and when I asked you about it, you disappeared. When you came back, instead of apologizing and moving on or doing a quick explanation and scumhunting, you instantly became very defensive, OMGUS'd me, and accused me of being defensive, which was quite a misrepresentation of my posts, since I had been pushing SC during most of your absence and had just moved back to you. You then flail a bit more and try to exploit Molla's mistake of referencing an ongoing game as a way to get him lynched, which, as I pointed out, was a low blow and something I can't see town doing. You then constantly deflected all my questions that I would ask you. And you did all this, trying to take some sort of high road, while doing absolutely zero scumhunting. And let's not forget the 1v1 suggestion (which you would have lost, btw), which is transparent AtE and survivalistic.

[Bulbazak]

Fu is still scum. He needs rope. Given that nobody heard from a friendly neighbor, that makes the setup DC??. I actually think there's more town power out there, but I don't want to give that person away.

Bard, Molla, and I are conf. town. Titus and SC are town as well. I'm not sure about Cherry anymore, but I am leaning scum on Tier. Fu is definitely scum and needs rope fast.

And with that, I'm going back to the marathon forum.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, there's no way you are conftown atm.

Given that I protected Molla, who is conf. town by way of cop, and there was no kill, I so totally am.

Btw, we're probably dealing with 1 T, since Mafia would have tried to use their Strongman ability otherwise. Therefore, I think the setup is more along the lines of DC?T.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not a huge fan of no killing as scum. I think it plays against your wincon a majority of the time. And scum would already know how many PRs the town has. Setup spec only helps town at this point.

[Bulbazak]

We don't have a friendly neighbor, because we should have heard from somebody by now concerning it. That was actually why I didn't want anybody else to vote Fu at the beginning of the day. We either have a vig. or a RB, neither of which would or should claim if they haven't used their ability. Again, I think I know what we have and who has it, but I'd rather not out that person.

[Bulbazak]

Fu is still flailing. His most recent posts are still more complicated version of AtE equating in "lynch me and you'll be sorry". He's not doing any original scumhunting and is instead trying to throw suspicion on as many people as possible.

[Bulbazak]

V/LA till the 2nd

Ditto

[Bulbazak]

I was going to ask Bulba why he's so laid back this game, and then I realized every game where he took command he's been scum

So lol

That's not true, but whatever. It was a combination of being tired and also wanting to hang back and not draw attention so I could use my ability. Now I'm simply wondering why Fu-scum isn't dead yet.

[Bulbazak]

Town

BBMolla
TheSilverBard
Titus

Null/Town

CherryDrPepper

Null

Stuffed Crust

Null/Scum

TierShift

Scum

FuDuzn

[Bulbazak]

I really think Titus is that town. I think Tier is bussing. This sudden cooperation doesn't sit right with me. Tbh, I'm still muddling it out.

[Bulbazak]

I think it's more PoE. I'm leaning heavily town on Cherry, and I still think I saw evidence of town play in SC. That leaves Tier by default.

[Bulbazak]

SC's reads are wierd as shit.

I'm not so sure that makes them scum, though.

[Bulbazak]

I think there was definitely more than a little suspicion of bulba, but I don't know him or his confidence in his own abilities that well, so I really can't say.

Read Maniacal Street Mafia and tell me how confident I am in my abilities.

I'm saying Bulba's assumed no kill strategy would have failed had a roleblocker existed, I know that atm it appears one doesn't.

You should know by now that I hate no killing as scum.

Also, Tier has moved down to a full-on scum read.

[Bulbazak]

Why'd I move down, because I don't take claims for granted?

Because you seem to be setting yourself up to vote anybody. Instead of trying to figure things out, which requires PoE, albeit with a bit of skepticism, you are trying to leave the playing field wide open. I don't get the sense of you trying to figure out scum, rather than trying to keep everyone viable as scum. And I don't think the apologetic attitude you adopt upon being called out is natural either.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, anything to declare?

[Bulbazak]

I'm saying that we're in Mylo and missing the n1 kill. There is no way this is DCTT, because scum would have used their strongman ability. I can see this being TTT, T, or 0 Ts (because roleblocker can't block and kill on same night), but not TT. So we either have an unclaimed PR(s), or Silver Bard is lying. I'd love to help you with the WKing discussion, but we really need to figure this out before going too much further.

[Bulbazak]

Why would scum have to use their strongman day 1?

The odds are higher that town will have 1-shot protective roles, meaning that strongman is the most useful on n1.

Furthermore, if SB is lying, he could have been hiding being a full cop.

Maybe. We'll see. It doesn't make sense for him to claim, then, since Molla was already conf. town due to my claim. I'd imagine he'd want to hold off as full cop, whereas he'd be wanting to out his claim and be confirmed as 1-shot, which is the same mindset I had with my 1-shot ability.

I don't really see the rush to mass claim.

It helps us with PoE in Mylo. There'd have to be a very good reason for a PR not to claim at this stage, and if so, they've probably decided to do so ahead of time.

[Bulbazak]

I hate claiming, Bulbazak. I think it's the scummiest thing a player can do.

Why is claiming the scummiest thing a player can do? And if that is the case, why are you gauging my response and considering claiming?

Do you really think it'll help us with PoE right now?

One more mislynch and we lose. We need all the help with PoE we can get, and conf. town players definitely help with that.

[Bulbazak]

Why didn't you claim Roleblocker yesterday when Silver Bard brought that up? Also, if you had reason to doubt my claim, why did you have Fu as a stronger scumread because of it at the beginning of yesterday?

[Bulbazak]

So, onto today? How does my claim help us PoE?

Assuming all the claims are correct, we have 3 conf. townies. With 6 alive, that leaves a lynch pool of 3. Your breakdown of your thought process makes sense, and combined with genuine posting and the fact that I don't think both scum would be WKing Fu at the end, I think you're likely to be town.

Who do you think is most likely to be scum from Cherry, Titus, and Tier? I'm thinking Tier myself. That last minute WK was horrible.

P-edit: In regards to the first scenario strongman, the scum roleblocker cannot block and kill at the same time. In the 0T scenario, if they blocked, they didn't use the strongman ability.

[Bulbazak]

One person on the team can kill while the other blocks, right?

Right, and since we need to hit scum today anyway, you should be able to block scum tonight.

Also, where did Titus claim VT?

[Bulbazak]

I get swamped and can't post immediately, and you guys go off the handle because you can't notice PR play. You guys are idiots...

Good job Varsoon and Titus. You guys had me fooled.

[Bulbazak]

And like I said, and was going to say again: We shouldn't be lynching PR claims in Mylo. The whole point was for PoE and to lynch out of the non-PR claims.

[Bulbazak]

- Is anyone interested in a See Nine "Finale?" It's not going to be something only people in the See Nine games will be able to play, but the flavor (yes, actual flavor!) would be related to this and Open 512. I'd also probably need a few people to help design the setup since I'm not too great at designing normal setups from the ground up.

Heck yes! /pre-in

Policy lynch varsoon day 1 in finale

That's what we said at the end of last game. You can see how well that turned out...

4. Keep an eye out for scum IIoA (Titus, and she was just too damn friendly and unsuspicious of me the last page)

Did you also notice where she outed her scumteam during the NKA?

also trust people that are willing to work with you more often

I think I did this. This is why I thought Fu less likely to be scum and als made me have doubts about you vs titus for scum. Is this always a good indicator of alignment?

It's not. Mastin's fooled me like this before.

Also, stop being so scummy bulba.

Diddo to you. You were OMGUSing something hard.

And this is another example of how much potential Sakura has as a player. It's sad that she's leaving due to being unable to separate her emotions from her play.