Scum kingmaker

[Kelly Chen]

What do you think of this.

Two scum groups. Every night, each submits a ranking of all the players. The king for the next day is that player whose lowest position on the two rankings is the highest.

Determine also what to do when there is a tie here, and what to do when one scum group has been eliminated (tricky one).

A scum draw would be banned, naturally.

I suppose you could also do scum kingmaker with just one scum group. That group would just submit who will be king. I suppose (to avoid creating confirmed innocents) the scum could pick one of their own to be king, but perhaps with some limitation as that they can't do this for consecutive days.

[PlaysWithSquirrels]

My head hurts.

[Kelly Chen]

Well, it would be awesome for the mod to start each day with "The scum have chosen _____ to be your king today!"

[Fritzler]

in the first example i don't know what happens when one scumgroup is decimated

[Glork]

I think Scum Kingmakers would necessarily have to be like Traitors in the sense that they would not know the main group members' identities.


EDIT: Actually, that'd be really interesting. Would the Scum Kingmaker be choosing somebody he thinks is his

scumbuddy

, or might he intentionally choose a townie in order to trick the town?

[Thok]

I'd suggest a scum group would need to be something like 3 Mafia + Kingmaker+Kingmaker Backup, with the last two being reverse traitors (Main scum group knows who they are, but Kingmaker/Backup doesn't know who normal scum is).

Unless you stop the kingmaking or allow a townie Kingmaker after the scum Kingmaker is killed.

[mith]

There would have to be something stopping a scum king coming out and the kingmaker just repeatedly crowning that player thereafter.

[Glork]

There would have to be something stopping a scum king coming out and the kingmaker just repeatedly crowning that player thereafter.

Angry Vigilantes!

EDIT: Maybe a Vig with a backup Vig or something...

[Kelly Chen]

Well I don't know if it was clear, but I didn't propose a scum kingmaker role. Just that the scum would collectively serve as the kingmaker.

[Glork]

That presents an even worse chance for townie success, as scums could still gang up and keep the town down and out. And again, it poses the "what happens when one scumgroup is eliminated?" problem.

[Zindaras]

Put in a Vigmaker so that the town will always have a Vig.

Edit: And put in a Copmaker and a Docmaker in too. And a Roleblockermaker, while we're at it.

[mith]

Thank The Maker Mafia

Mafia - C3PO, Shai-Hulud, The Unmaker
Traitor Kingmaker
Traitor Switchmaker
Vigmaker
Copmaker
Docmaker
Blockermaker
Makermaker
Claimmaker
Freshmaker
Alvin Maker
...

[pablito]

So here's how I see the rules as described, but I'm confused so I'm not sure.

So there's two scum groups, each group submits one list for that night (thereby assuming that they speak to each other at night).

Here's the example lists:

Scum list A
1. Kelly Chen
2. mith
3. Zindaras
4. Glork
5. Thok

Scum list B
1. Thok
2. Glork
3. Zindaras
4. mith
5. Kelly Chen

I used these two lists because I think it exemplifies the ideal KC has with the lists. Therefore Zindaras would become King because Zind was a 3 and a 3. His lowest ranking (3) was highest of everyone's. KC and Thok's lowest were 5s and therefore they weren't going to be king either.

I see, so basically scum try to choose the worst king possible with their lists. Ha. That's cruel.

As for how to resolve the "what happens when one scum group is gone" issue. I propose that the extinct scum group's last list be used for the rest of the game. And that's the only list that matters. Basically take the extinct scum group's #1 person on the list to be next king, the next day the group's #2 and so on. Because the whole idea is that scum want their ideal king to be high on their list anyway. And picking a king is a blind-collaborative process with the other scrum group anyway, so taking their list doesn't seem bad.

I think that scum kingmaker would be very prone to king-replacement, and that's not always great for town. And I don't think there's much to help the town into trying to get the best king possible. I think that type of setup would be very helpful to scum more than town, so there would need to be some good power roles.

I assume that the scum would list themselves on their lists as well. So I think there's also a high possibility of having scum kings more than half the time. Since each scum list has themselves being 1-4 or whatever, then if the other scum list has them high up, then it's easy for them to become king.

[IH]

How's this one?
Scum have no nightkill

5 scum

1 Scum Kingmaker
3 backup kingmaker goons
1 Traitor Vengeful scum (kills whoever targets him)

18 townies

1 town vigilante
17 random backup vigs (same as town backing up kingmaker, except for vig)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, the threat of the vig should be enough to keep the king under control, so it'd essentially be nightless.

[Kelly Chen]

So here's how I see the rules as described, but I'm confused so I'm not sure.

You got it right.

I see, so basically scum try to choose the worst king possible with their lists. Ha. That's cruel.

But they also have to try to get the other scum group killed off.

As for how to resolve the "what happens when one scum group is gone" issue. I propose that the extinct scum group's last list be used for the rest of the game. And that's the only list that matters. Basically take the extinct scum group's #1 person on the list to be next king, the next day the group's #2 and so on. Because the whole idea is that scum want their ideal king to be high on their list anyway. And picking a king is a blind-collaborative process with the other scrum group anyway, so taking their list doesn't seem bad.

Nice idea.

I think that scum kingmaker would be very prone to king-replacement, and that's not always great for town. And I don't think there's much to help the town into trying to get the best king possible. I think that type of setup would be very helpful to scum more than town, so there would need to be some good power roles.

I don't know what you mean by "king replacement"... And as an alternative to power roles, you could make it nightless. Play with the scum ratio.

I assume that the scum would list themselves on their lists as well. So I think there's also a high possibility of having scum kings more than half the time. Since each scum list has themselves being 1-4 or whatever, then if the other scum list has them high up, then it's easy for them to become king.

Right. So scum have to pretend to be a town king more often. And they can't just pick off town, they have to get the other scum also.

Nice I think.

[pablito]

Just that scum might realize that lurkers make the best kings, and therefore you'd have to replace a lot of kings.

I really like the ranking idea (as evidenced by dante's game, I love rankings), and I'm interested in seeing how it could turn out.

And it's true that scum have to pretend to be a town king more often. Also, I find it very likely that any person (scum or town) that executes scum will suddenly find themselves on the bottom of the list and/or soon NKed. So in a way, that makes it harder for scum group A to have their own scum king and successfully execute someone from scum group B.

Nightless would bring an interesting component because in the end, but the endgame would be much more difficult for scum to win then, but at the same time, it could be good if there's two scum groups. Maybe alternating scum night kills until one group is eradicated? That might help with balance as well.

[IH]

I think.... the scum don't need a kill, but need some way to keep it in check....


Perhaps this defeats the purpose, but...

What about a nightless game, where the beginning of the day whole town votes for kingmaker, then kingmaker makes a king?

[pablito]

Perhaps this defeats the purpose, but...

What about a nightless game, where the beginning of the day whole town votes for kingmaker, then kingmaker makes a king?

That game would be unbalanced. The scum have no way of getting rid of the elected kingmaker (if it's a lifetime post). I think what keeps kingmaker games in check is that the kingmaker is unknown and could die at any time.

But...if you're talking about electing a kingmaker after each lynch in a nightless, then I see how it's not really different from voting an MP for your riding, which leads to a Prime Minister being elected. Because I see it quickly turning into, elect me as your kingmaker and I promise to make IH your king!

Either way, known kingmakers are generally no good.

I like KC's ranking set-up because even though scum have the responsibility of choosing the king, they are not solely responsible for it and it requires the viewpoint from different groups to figure out who could be most helpful to their win condition. Plus it would be interesting to see how a setup where a council is responsible for choosing a king, instead of just one or two. Might be a good parallel to two-party systems and seeing who is the most "electable" or "moderate".

[Yosarian2]

...sounds like the town would basically be pretty much completly irrelevent in that game, Kelly. Each scum group would try to get their own as king so they could try and kill the other scum group at day and kill them at night, and the town has basically no recourse during either the day or the night, except for the vigs or whatever, and that's a pretty darn thin read.

[Kelly Chen]

But every king would claim to be town. And unconvincing kings would be prime targets for future kings.

Let's say it's 4:4:8 (which it probably wouldn't be) and each scum group lists all of their own at the top. Then the odds of a scum king are only 1/3, right? That is, 4/12 of the players below the other group's top four.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

No, Kelly, certainly not 1/3. If you treat it like that, the 5-8 on both lists essentially have to be not scum to get a town king. That's (4/12*4/11*4/10*4/9)^2 for a Town king. Approximately zero.

[Kelly Chen]

Ah. I don't understand that math, but I see a problem.

A townie's final ranking position is the worse of two random positions between 5 and 12.

But a scum's final ranking position is the worse of one such number, and a random position between 1 and 4.

On the other hand, under such conditions, would scum be so bold as to put their members in the top 4 all the time?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If a scum were to be put between 5 and 8 in the other list, he has excellent odds of becoming the king. So that part of the list needs to be scumfree. And they're two lists. That's the math.