Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[pieguyn]

vote: zmuffin

you have half a page to obvtown yourself. go \o/

[pieguyn]

I am excited as fuck for this game. Hope Tammy and Pieguyn are town as well so we can crush the scumteam into a billion tiny pieces.

I am town. Are you town, Pie?

yep \:D/
let's completely own the shit out of this game together :3

[pieguyn]

on another note, Brian's probably town

TOWN BLOCK: me, Brian, F-16
I'm accepting applications, but I reserve the right to reject if you're scum so watch out

[pieguyn]

bc you're town

...you are town right

also oops I forgot tammy
TOWN BLOCK: me, Brian, F-16, Tammy

[pieguyn]

Tammy hasn't posted yet?

I trust F-16 will be able to read Tammy when she does post. so she can go into the townblock on the condition that if she's scum I'll take her out of the townblock o/
inb4 I just townbloc'd the 3 scum

on a serious note, it's not a serious townbloc

[pieguyn]

what the hell is a weak miller
nice try bert

[pieguyn]

also I got ninja'd like 7 times making that post </3

[pieguyn]

but if F-16 and I were scum would we really buddy each other out in the open like this?

we might as well be in thread masons here

[pieguyn]

wow I was right Brian is town

@Brian:

what miller test are you talking about? from that info I could see Bert being an acutal miller or a mafia traitor or flat out mafia 0.0

I'm also wondering about the "weak"

[pieguyn]

flavor doesn't determine alignment, which means that especially given annie's alignment in series was left unresolved annie's alignment in game could be just about anything

however roles should come from flavor and I'd expect smth like miller would

@F-16:

what made you sure on Bert-town? especially considering you said you don't trust early miller claims especially from someone like him. I still don't get the "weak" and there's still a chance annie as a character could be outright mafia based on the statement about flavor. did I miss smth 0.0

[pieguyn]

I don't like the way you're pushing the Annie flavor based on the anime when the game's based on the manga, with Annie's alignment in the manga being incredibly clear. It's like you're simultaneously trying to write-off the flavor while using it to potentially position an attack later.

oh lord
you're scum aren't you
this reminds me of how you jumped on Varsoon in imperishable night early game with a sketchy reason and iirc completely ignored everything else

I haven't seen the anime or read the manga .-. so I didn't know any of this, nor was I paying attention to exactly what this game was based off of, nor did I know this bc no one brought up the manga. so you're kind of right in that I'm not really paying much attention to the flavor, but I'm using what I'm picking up of it to try to figure out stuff

what makes you think I'm familiar with the manga?

wtf is Mykonian's read list.

holy shit you really are scum

vote: BRO

[pieguyn]

Why are you so sure there's a third?

And, really? A game-breaking aspect of the setup that was missed by four different people? Unlikely. I find this all too hard to believe.

why are you trying to discredit smth that might break the game?

if you're town I'd expect you would take more of an interest in smth like this. the fact you wouldn't be more interested in this feels skeevy as fuck. I don't buy that you think there might not be a 3rd (there were 2 claims with only like 3 or 4 people actively discussing it and some of the people still haven't even posted it yet), and it feels like scum damage control. this seems like typical scum who's afraid of automatically losing

Pie's tone worries me, too. Looks like a lot more assurance than is really warranted.

what does this mean?

Brian seems towny. Plum seems extremely non-committal. I do not find that trustworthy.

I'm not really sure what to make of all this "weak" discussion. It might be legit, but it also might be a lot of rolefishing.

so you accuse Plum for being non-committal and then you epically fail at committing to a stance on the "weak" discussion. your logic is contradictory as fuck

also makes sense how you don't want to take a stance on smth that might result in an auto-loss for you :>

[pieguyn]

Just a friendly reminder: Character flavor does not determine alignment, and the game is not breakable by flavor. Additionally, scum factions have been equipped with safe fakeclaims. Thanks!

ugh

K, I still think bert is town, but my assumptions were false. No conftowns

^ this
even if there's no conftowns Bert is town as fuck

I don't think he's fakeclaiming. I was just pointing out that with scum getting fakeclaims, it's no longer completely impossible that he's scum, as was my initial proposal.

124 feels like indignation that scum information (that they have fakeclaims) has been leaked by the mod.

get out of my head. I get the feeling that Kaze is feeling apprehensive about this whole "weak" discussion bc he's scum and doesn't want to auto-lose

vote: Kaze

[pieguyn]

Pie, you're a good person here.

?

regardless, I feel warm and fuzzy

[pieguyn]

No. Town or scum I'd be rather upset if there was some aspect of the setup that would break the game. I came here to play Mafia and have fun. Breaking games is not fun.

so your apprehension about breaking the game was just bc you don't like breaking games?

if so, what happened to your skepticism about it being "too unlikely to be true" and not thinking there's a 3rd weak player? as far as I could tell that's why you didn't want to continue with this path. I'd like an answer for this plz

you also don't seem to have a problem with "confirming" two townies here

Would you like to confirm this, Bert? If this is all true, I'll be on my merry way with two confirmed townies today.

which is kind of off from someone who apparently doesn't like breaking games. what's going on 0.0

[pieguyn]

I love how I said I wanted an answer for the first point and you didn't give one

[pieguyn]

1) You suck at reading me.

wow nice discredit. still doesn't change the fact that you jumped on me early game for a sketchy reason

also I'm 1/1 on reading you, so this isn't even correct. the only completed game we have together is imperishable night and although you did fool me D1, I came around to it on D2. so that's a blatant fucking lie

2) I make early pressure moves regardless of alignment

this is a blatant strawman. it's not bc you made an early pressure move, it's bc the early pressure move you made was shit and it p much exactly matches up with how you played in imperishable night. your jump on Varsoon in that game was an early pressure move, but it was bad bc the reasoning for it was sketchy as fuck. what's different about this?

Were you just sheeping BS on your flavor comment, then?

I was sheeping what everyone was saying about the flavor bc if everyone agrees about it then it's probably true. I had no way of knowing whether said flavor was BS or not, and from what people are saying it doesn't appear to be BS in the first place.

why are you assuming I knew said flavor was BS when sheeping it? like you apparently think that I'm scum who was deliberately sheeping BS?

this is exactly why your push on me sucks. first, you said I was scum who was writing off flavor while positioning for a flavor based attack later, citing the differentiation between anime and manga to back it up. but in order for this to the case, I have to be familiar enough with the flavor to know the difference in annie's position between anime/manga, and know which one this game is based off of. this assumption comes straight out of thin air and I don't see at all how the fuck you felt comfortable making an assumption like that. not to mention someone said your idea that the game is based exclusively off the manga is incorrect to begin with. when I told you I don't know the flavor, you completely dodged me. instead you left your vote on me and continued the push, despite one of the underlying assumptions behind your push was demonstrated to be unequivocally incorrect (game being based on manga), which in this case fked up a lot of your reasoning. and now you accuse me of sheeping smth that's BS, which makes the assumption that I knew it was BS. which is the same thing. why would you make an assumption like that considering

I just said I don't know the flavor?

tl;dr: you assumed smth that is completely false and there was no reason for you to assume that. your reason for voting me is entirely fabricated and not coming from a legitimate thought process. your logic is contradictory as fuck and the way you're trying to completely dismiss me with these terribad illogical arguments is, guess what? scummy as fuck. die :>

vote: BRO

and one more thing. go back and look at all your illogic in NY167. you discredited, misrep'd, and strawmanned all over the place. this is the same shit. if I apparently "suck at reading you" as you say, then why are my arguments against you incorrect? you still haven't given an explanation why. good luck ~

[pieguyn]

I kinda thought I addressed the point. My skepticism obviously just kinda disappeared after Bert showed up.

can you explain why you thought there wouldn't be a 3rd weak player? bc I can't look past it and how it seems like damage control. and I'm not sure I buy that such a large amt of apprehension comes from "I don't like breaking games"

also, what are your thoughts on Pasch and BRO?

[pieguyn]

now I need lots more votes on BRO, and anyone who disagrees needs to go up and look at how none of his logic is actually correct. my tl;dr at the end explains it p well. hardly ggs

[pieguyn]

I didn't say I thought there wouldn't be. I was asking Kagami why she was assuming there would be. There's quite a difference.

Scum and town, respectively.

if you believed there was another weak player why you'd be skeptical of Kagami for doing the same thing? did you think there wasn't a 3rd weak player?

go back look at my massive wall about BRO try again. till then, explain BRO town?

[pieguyn]

Bro pretty much disassembled the entire "We can find the scums based on the Weak modifier" idea that was floating around. If he were scum, he would have let the town indulge that poor avenue of thinking and probably try to score some mislynches off it rather than argue against it. I'm not voting Bro. He's town.

why do you think he'd always do the most obvious strategy? this is the same guy who stole a weak neighborize and suicided on his partner just to give her a ridiculous amt of towncred. it's obvious BRO would NOT necessarily make the obvious scum play all the time and I could totally see him doing this for the towncred

Pie, I'm not seeing anything Bro is saying that you don't like as a big deal. Likewise vice versa.

it's a big deal bc he's relying on incorrect arguments, discrediting, strawmanning, etc. and isn't actually answering any of my questions about him. he thinks he can just brush my suspicion on him off by doing nothing and no one will call him on it (which is p much what you're doing). his engagement of me is full of loaded questions that make assumptions that I know the flavor, despite the fact I'VE ALREADY SAID I DON'T. p much my last paragraph and tl;dr explains everything

[pieguyn]

Occam's razor. I'm not going to assume he'd purposely destroy a perfectly good mislynch outlet in some sort of next-level plot because he played well as scum in game X. If that's the way to win the game, all scum should just claim scum in their first post and vote their partners from the get-go because next-level WIFOMsandwiches. You're confbiasing.

exactly, which is why him doing that is null at best. the fact that he did this isn't a scumtell, but it's not a towntell either. I also think that the "all weak = town" got destroyed as soon as mod threw that scum got fakeclaims, and it prob would have been brought up anyway when discussing lynch options. so him bringing it up now probably didn't do anything 0.0

[pieguyn]

Pie is still scummy, but was my second choice vote while typing my first post.

hi
care to answer my questions? 128

also looking back you were agreeing with kaze who never even explained his notions on F-16 or me. why do you think we're scum?

[pieguyn]

myko stop voting F-16 and sheep me onto BRO

he was scum v. me in this game. in that game the game was in MYLO on D3 (there were 7 people alive with 2 scum), although we didn't know it. BRO as scum had got lynched on D2 and the two remaining scum were his partners (zmuffin and GIF/Nacho hydra). I pegged one of the scum, had the other scum as my 3rd, but then got manipulated onto my other scumread who wasn't scum on the basis that it wasn't XYLO and lost the game bc of that.

the point is, BRO knows I get sidetracked easily, and he also knows that I don't back down often, based on a 1v1 I had early game v. Varsoon (this was also where I referenced him making a sketchy jump early game). so that kind of defense is exactly what I would expect from scum-BRO in this kind of situation. "oh look, pie's making an early push on me. I'll just completely brush it off, then respond with some aggression so that he backs off and goes to look elsewhere! I don't even have to address anything which will give him a foothold to make a better push on me, so that I get to avoid an early game push from him. and no one will notice how I'm not actually answering anything at all bc of all the towncred I get by pointing out the flaw in Kagami's plan." ok mb that was exaggerated a bit but you get the idea

[pieguyn]

Pie, I am not convinced that BRO's assumptions about whether you know the anime = scum. He is null for now. I'll go through his other games to see how he opens his attacks as town or scum. That should shed a better light on his affiliation. Can you link the games you have played with BRO? Pasch is leaning scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32587
that's the only one. he was scum I was town

also it's not just the fact he made that assumption. it's how his "engagement" with me was nothing but a bunch of loaded questions that made said assumptions. it's bad enough he made said assumption (especially after I told him I didn't know flavor) but then he used it to come up with a bunch of fake reasons to throw blame at me and get me off him. there's also how he blatantly ignored the fact that another assumption he was making was incorrect. IMO it makes way more sense in the context of my above post. unless that's what you meant

[pieguyn]

@zmuffin:

do you think BRO's play is similar to imperishable night? also why not wagon BRO with us

[pieguyn]

1) My reason for jumping on you wasn't sketch. Yeah, early game isn't going to have to most evidence, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit around and wait for someone to stumble. I'm going to press something minor and get pressure moving.

3) What's different about this is that my reasoning was fine. You awkwardly postured around Bert's claim. I attacked you for it.

except it's not bc you made the assumption that I'm familiar enough with the flavor to do smth like that, when there's no basis for that assumption. I could see smth like "oh I would have expected everyone in this game to watch the anime", but yours was based off the fact that I KNEW the manga and p much everything about the flavor. let me break down your argument for you:

I don't like the way you're pushing the Annie flavor based on the anime when the game's based on the manga, with Annie's alignment in the manga being incredibly clear. It's like you're simultaneously trying to write-off the flavor while using it to potentially position an attack later.

so what are you trying to imply by this statement?

"I don't like the way you're pushing the Annie flavor based on the anime when the game's based on the manga, with Annie's alignment in the manga being incredibly clear."

you're implying that I am scum who is deliberately pushing the annie flavor based off the anime when the game is based off the manga. however, in order to do this, I have to know the annie flavor in between the game and the manga in the first place. this is bc no one had been discussing the manga AT ALL

"It's like you're simultaneously trying to write-off the flavor while using it to potentially position an attack later."

again, suppose I was scum and I was doing this. then again I would have to know annie's alignment in the manga. there's also the idea that mb it's just me but in USA at least I get the feeling there's not very many people who even read manga, so I srsly don't get where this assumption comes from at all

there's also this one

"when the game's based on the manga"

which was demonstrated to be false, although idk if it was intentional. although I really don't care atm

4) BS = Brian Skies, obviously. You missed that part, which is super suspect, give that he's the one who said Annie's alignment in the show was ambiguous, which you then worked off of. The fact that you then didn't catch me referring back to that point indicates a lack of solid trajectory, aka scum trying to bullshit reasons without understanding what those reasons are

6) I didn't dodge that you didn't know the flavor; I tried to work out where you got that idea from, and tracked it back to BS (Brian Skies, so you can't misrep me again on this. You then COMPLETELY MISSED THAT.

WOW MASSIVE DERP LOL. ok it makes more sense now

the last sentence is the most random ass assumption I've ever seen. the fact I didn't catch you referring back to that point indicates I'm not aware that BS = Brian. you're assuming that this comes from a scum motivation (BS reasons), rather than showing WHY it comes from a scum motivation as opposed to smth else (not realizing BS = brian). I can't really explain this any further beyond the fact I didn't know BS was referring to brian skies as opposed to bullshit. however, bc you didn't explain why, I get the feeling you knew I didn't have any explanation and were just trying to paint me as scummy

5) I didn't cite a difference b/w the manga and the anime,

nope. let me quote again for reference

I don't like the way you're pushing the Annie flavor based on the anime when the game's based on the manga, with Annie's alignment in the manga being incredibly clear. It's like you're simultaneously trying to write-off the flavor while using it to potentially position an attack later.

your point was that I was pushing the annie flavor based off anime when the game was based off manga, and annie's alignment in the manga was clear. it's suspicious bc the alignment I'm pushing re: annie is apparently entirely different from what it should be. you are clearly differentiating between annie's aligmnent in anime (ambiguous) vs. manga (clear).

I assumed that the anime hasn't gotten as far as the manga, so that someone watching only the anime might not have known how that arc would have ended.

AHAH THIS IS A BLATANT CONTRADICTION
if you assumed that someone watching only the anime wouldn't know how the arc ended, then where did you get the idea that I knew how it ended as indicated by the fact that you pushed on me for misrepping the flavor?

sry but you just got caught so fucking hard >w<

"He's scum because he's a strong scum player, so he'd make that sort of play as scum."

nope. I JUST SAID that, bc you're a strong scum player, that kind of play is null coming from you as opposed to a towntell

Wtf I respond directly to you, ask you questions, and keep the pressure on you, and you turn around and say that I'm trying to brush you off?

if you're not trying to brush me off then what's the point of statements like this:

You're now going to try to play off that you didn't realize BS=Brian Skies in my previous post, and that you forgot that he was the one (and only one before you) who first said that Annie's alignment in the series is ambiguous.

I find statements like this to be generally defensive bc by saying what I'm going to do next and painting it in a scummy light ("play off") you're trying to manipulate me into not responding or otherwise giving a response that isn't the natural continuation from your arguments. it also comes from a scum motivation in that you don't want me to give said natural response and thus continue the 1v1 further. so yes, you are trying to brush me off. it's the same deal as you completely dodging my arguments when I first pushed on you. no, I'm not going to let you cover it up

You're my main focus now.

oh no I'm really scared someone save me from the big bad BRO
fuck that. while I can see this very reasonably coming from a town POV, this also feels defensive. it also fits with all the other statements you've made from a scum POV in that you're trying to manipulate me into not continuing the 1v1 with you

[pieguyn]

or for anyone who's watching you can just look at this part

I assumed that the anime hasn't gotten as far as the manga, so that someone watching only the anime might not have known how that arc would have ended.

AHAH THIS IS A BLATANT CONTRADICTION
if you assumed that someone watching only the anime wouldn't know how the arc ended, then where did you get the idea that I knew how it ended as indicated by the fact that you pushed on me for misrepping the flavor?

get off your wagons and vote BRO with me already

[pieguyn]

bro :<

why are you scum this game? :<

YES I KNEW IT AHAHA
wanna vote BRO with us?

inb4 you're scum buddying me like you did to Varsoon @_@

[pieguyn]

i'm not really reading bro as scum for individual posts. it's more a body-of-work thing and the underlying tone in the way he responds to things

elaborate plz

[pieguyn]

When what I pointed out was that you were using it as a tool to POSTURE AROUND BERT. You're focusing in on my flavor accusation, and not the fact that you were posturing against Bert.

So why don't you address that point.

the point is if I was willfully and knowingly posturing around Bert they I would HAVE TO BE FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH THE FLAVOR TO KNOW ANNIE'S MANGA ALIGNMENT, SINCE NO ONE HAD BROUGHT UP THE MANGA AT ALL. YOU WERE THE FIRST TO DO THAT. THERE WAS NO REFERENCE OF THE MANGA BEFORE YOU BROUGHT IT UP

Especially given that after you admitted to sheeping on flavor, I traced that thought process back to Brian. Which would imply that you would remember that Brian had given it to you, which would in turn indicate that your trajectory is falling apart somewhere, given that you couldn't remember that your flavor trajectory started with BS.

I don't call Brian BS, I call him Brian. I get confused and I basically go "wait what" every time someone calls him BS . as I said, if you really are town, feel free to not believe it. but the way you're pushing on this makes me think you knew I wouldn't have a good answer for this question, and are trying to paint me as scummy

It's me pre-empting what your next step as scum would be, and me countering it before you make it.

except it's the next step I'd take as town. you're not explaining WHY said action comes from a scum POV, as opposed to a town POV. you're not countering anything. you're trying to box me in

Oh yes, I don't want a 1v1 with you SO BADLY that I'm intentionally antagonizing you and counter-walling your wall.

your posts are manipulative as fuck. you're trying to stop me from attacking you back.

It's not a difference between the texts; it's an assumed level of progression (Annie appears to be a good guy, then it's ambiguous for a while, then it turns out she's pretty clearly evil). I assumed that the anime is somewhere in that middle phase, whereas the manga is obviously further along.

THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL CONTRADICTION AND YOU KNOW IT. THE CONTRADICTION IS, YOU WERE MAKING PUSHES ON ME THAT ONLY WORK ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT I KNOW THE FLAVOR, WHEN YOU STATED JUST NOW YOU WERE ASSUMING THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD WATCHED THE ANIME BUT NOT THE MANGA AND THEY WOULDN'T KNOW HOW IT ACTUALLY ENDED. DON'T FUCKING TRY TO WRIGGLE OUT OF THIS

[pieguyn]

Other than in the post that says "this game's flavor is based on the manga [and other things that I assumed were roughly the same]

wow you're joking right
first off, you were the first to discuss the actual content of the manga. second off,

The plot flavor and setup of the game may be inspired by the manga, anime adaptation, or the weird fanfic-esque things that go on in my head.

that's not at all what it says and you know it

So you just forgot where you got your idea of the flavor from? Like, it's fine if you don't call him BS, but to then NOT REMEMBER THAT BRIAN GAVE YOU THE IDEA OF FLAVOR, AND THAT I WAS CLEARLY REFERRING TO A SPECIFIC PERSON seems like a little much.

more like I wasn't paying attention to exactly who was saying what about the flavor bc I was sheeping the majority consensus

AND SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR MANIPULATIVE RESPONSES. YOU WERE NOT "CLEARLY REFERRING TO A SPECIFIC PERSON". YOU ASKED IF I WAS "SHEEPING BS". I INTERPRETED IT TO MEAN SHEEPING SOMETHING THAT WAS BULLSHIT. IS THIS REALLY SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND

It comes from a scum POV given that your initial posturing comes from a scum POV (there's no reason for town to posture like that around a miller claim), and that you've manipulated my words in a way that I wouldn't expect town-you to do. Call it burden of proficiency if you'd like.

Wat.

That's not a contradiction.

Other people weren't using it to posture a future attack. You were.

it's a contradiction bc you were assuming there were people who watched anime but not hte manga and thus wouldn't know the whole story. however, where did this assumption go when you wanted to accuse me of posturing? your actions don't match your words

also you still think I'm posturing, despite the fact that your initial assumption that the game was based off the manga is wrong?

if you're town I don't get why the hell you don't wanna let go of smth that's been flat-out proven to be incorrect. you're scum and you keep coming back to this like just by bringing it up you can crush my whole case against you. you really haven't provided adequate answers for any of my points. instead you keep going back to this and the whole "BS" thing. I've explained how all my actions make sense from a town motivation, and you just ignore it and twist my words around.

I'm done arguing with you. at this point you're just twisting my words around, and it's p obvious you're scum so idgaf. until you can come up with some actually legitimate points, I won't be responding to any more walls, as there's no need to
now I need lots more votes on BRO. let's lynch the fuck out of this

[pieguyn]

So you're saying townies don't lose their train of thought?

Um...

I lose my train of thought a lot more as town than scum; I normally have an agenda as scum, which makes it easier for me to track what I'm pushing and I. I'm working on aligning my town game more to that, since it's annoying to read in my ISO that I've noted something, but not remember why I've noted it :/

^^^^ this is why BRO is scum

where'd this stance go when he was pushing me for supposedly forgetting about brian skies? if townies supposedly lose their train of thought, why would be apparently be so surprised at me "forgetting" that?

it's complete fucking BS and we need to lynch the fuck out of this before I go any more insane

[pieguyn]

get off your wagons and vote BRO with me already

What are your thoughts about Dan?

I don't know. I haven't read the past 5 pages in detail yet. doing now

[pieguyn]

What are your thoughts about Dan?

I don't like how he doesn't explain much at first although unfortunately it's prob just playstyle and there's nothing to do about it

I didn't read 22 as a relatively serious post and figured it was questioning to get out of RVS, whereas 46 was way more serious. so idk what the hell is up with his read on you. it feels playstyle based but I do think it's a reasonable read from a town POV. I agree with most of his other reads and I think his thought process behind the way he went about questioning people was legitimate. however, idk if he can fake as scum. currently null with a really slight town lean floating somewhere between null and null-town

I'm using him using it to obfuscate my point and turn the attack on me to push. He misinterpreted my point, used that against me, and then didn't back off on it, instead trying to keep it as a point against me.

says the guy who is STILL bringing up "posturing" despite the fact that it's been literally proven incorrect, due to the fact that the game isn't exclusively based off the manga

this logic is contradictory as fuck

Again, are you asserting that there's 1 scum in {me, Pie}

and if I'm apparently so obvscum why is he questioning this?

Scum motivation behind dropping a line of questioning is that it allows one to appear like they're trying to figure things out without having to push anything too hard.

And how is it any different from town dropping a line of questioning because they want to figure things out and take a step back? Your answer seems to be "it looks like town, scum try to look like town, so it is scum."

agree with this and yet he claimed I was using this exact reasoning against him (when I wasn't) and that it was bullshit

Holy fucking shit. I've explained everything. I've run through my logic in a way that makes sense. I tried to lay things out for you, and you kept sidestepping the issue. I explained things multiple times, so sorry not sorry for pointing out that you're being dense. I don't fucking care if it's intentional or unintentional, you can go fuck off.

I'll be back tomorrow. Kagami+F-16 make me want to punch a kitten.

go look at imperishable night and how zmuffin pulled this kitten shit
probably not alignment indicative, but just saying ~

[pieguyn]

I'm completely against the F-16 wagon

F-16 is one of those players who can town it the fuck up. if he's town, I'm sure he'll do this sometime during the game. if anything his frustration at the wagon on him feels genuine so I'd argue he's done it already. also I think all the accusations on him are p much playstyle based. yes, every single one. I'm not entirely familiar with his style but that's the feeling I get from him 0.0

I originally thought there was even more to gain because I believed that town and scum would react in alignment indicative ways and thought I could establish patterns hence the analysis of every player in the game as opposed to just the ones that were playing.

I realized as I finished the analysis that there were no set patterns and the only information I could gain was an insight into how the players in the game reacted to a miller claim and compare and contrast with how they did here.

this is also smth I'd expect from F-16-town although idk if he can fake as scum. from what I can tell, F-16 tries to look at all things objectively. if there's no pattern he doesn't hesitate to point it out

Eh? Why are you talking to your supposed scumread like he's a townie?

Kaze what the fuck
do you srsly think this is alignment indicative? I accused you of doing the same thing in AA:MFA iirc

I also hate the timing on this. is it a coincidence this came up when the BRO wagon was picking up steam?


about the weak claims: scum probably got a fakeclaim with the weak modifier in it. so they'd know what it meant that way and it feels like a more elegant solution than the mod just going "hey guys weak means this". however, Bert is town as fuck even without being "confirmed" via the "weak" shit and IMO the way Kagami went about it was town motivated. even if she's somehow scum it basically blew the game wide open and led everyone (or just me) to get a shitton of strong stances early on which is pro-town and way better than usual.

@Bert, F-16:

what are your thoughts on Tammy? IMO there's smth off about her. however, idk how to read her personally at all

@F-16:

do you think you could play like this as scum?

@anyone:

does anyone know how to read Kaze? if so what are your reads on him?

[pieguyn]

This feels like an odd defense.

I rarely defend people so I don't have much experience with defending someone. my point is if F-16 is town we'll be able to know

How familiar do you think you are with his playstyle, and why would you not think he could fake this as scum but think the above arguments are just playstyle related?

no I literally have no idea if he can fake it or not. it's playstyle related cause it's based off my impression of the way he plays. he seems like he tries to be completely logical and objective, and he also relies extensively on meta to confirm/deny reads. I'm not completely familiar with his playstyle, but that's the feeling I get by being in the game with him. I'm not 100% sure, explicitly becuase idk if he can fake it. also his reaction to the wagon on him looked town as fuck, although mb I'm biased bc I generally react similarly when I get wagoned

(less sure about BRO - he actually might be town :/)

NO
WE'RE NOT LETTING HIM GET AWAY
LYNCH BRO WITH ME
at least explain what's giving you reservations

[pieguyn]

The fact that I was incorrect about your knowledge of the flavor doesn't change that you still postured around Bert's claim.

quit trying to write me off with false logic
yeah you were incorrect about that but you were ALSO incorrect about what the game was based off of in the first place. and you still haven't explained how I was posturing nor what makes you think my actions were scum motivated as opposed to town motivated, despite the fact I've explained the motivation behind my actions several times

I would say puppy but I'm a dog person.

wow overdefensive much
it was a joke and I explicitly said it probably wasn't alignment indicative

And I don't want to anymore because F-16 and Kagami are better leads now.

OH NO YOU DON'T
DON'T YOU FUCKING WALK AWAY FROM THIS
YOU KNOW YOU'RE CAUGHT AND YOU'RE WALKING AWAY SO THAT NO ONE SEES IT
YOU DON'T GET TO IGNORE MY POINTS JUST BC "F16 AND KAGAMI ARE BETTER LEADS"
DIE
DIE
DIE

[pieguyn]

Also, an equal rundown on the Pasch wagon and the BRO wagon.

1. made a jump on me with a sketchy reason
2. when pressured, uses false logic, strawmans, misreps, etc. and thinks he can just brush suspicion of him off
3. when I showed it was false he stuck to it and is still preaching it instead of admitting he's wrong
4. his actions blatantly don't match his words. he was working on the assumption that people don't know flavor but then threw this out the window to say I was "posturing based on flavor". when pressured claims that had nothing to do with it even though it blatantly did. there's also his idea that "townies lose their train of thought" which he apparently forgot about to say that I forgot where my flavor assumption came from, which he also painted as scummy even though it's not. when pressured about this he covers it up by redacting it to "but you forgot his NAME" even though I didn't
5. AND NOW HE'S WALKING AWAY AND TRYING TO SWEEP THE WHOLE THING UNDER THE RUG BC HE KNOWS IF HE CONTINUES HE'LL GET CAUGHT
and the big one is:
6. thinks I'm scum bc BS shouldn't be capitalized

[pieguyn]

here's where I'm currently at btw

town
Brian Skies
Bert
Kagami
Pieguyn
F-16_Fighting_Falcon

null-town
zMuffinMan
Tammy

null
ActionDan
Plum
mykonian

scum
Kazekirimaru <- indignation and apprehensiveness about possibly breaking the game + jump on counterwagon when BRO wagon was picking up steam. when pressured, claims it's confbias on my part with no explanation
BROseidon <- yeah
Paschendale <- his pushes are weird as fuck. looking through his ISO I also realized he never even explained his initial scumread on me (funny how it matches BRO's) and idk what exactly is up with his read on BRO. however, I'm having reservations bc he seems to be legitimately skeptical of plum+kagami. need more data here

[pieguyn]

@Pasch:

Agree with Kaze's notions on Pie and F-16 in post 48. Pie's tone worries me, too.

Looks like a lot more assurance than is really warranted.

can you explain what was with your initial scumread on me and F-16? you were agreeing with Kaze who didn't explain either of them. also, what does bolded mean?

also, can you walk me through your read on BRO in more detail? I get your initial scumread of him but then around 500 it feels like you were starting to have reservations based on your questioning and responses to him. can you explain how your read on him changed over time plz?

[pieguyn]

where and how am I confbiasing?

[pieguyn]

where and how am I confbiasing?

You're confbiasing by tunneling a townie. Now be nice. ^^

so I'm confbiasing bc he's town ok. what makes my case on him wrong? as it is you're not giving me anything besides "he's town", making this logic circular.

feel free to knock my case on him down if you want but just saying "he's town" isn't gonna cut it

[pieguyn]

Like I sad before, reading your correspondence with him reminds me of our arguments in Ace Attorney.

Speaking of which, you should really try to cut back on this habit.

care to explain how?

also why are you townreading him? the only explanation you gave was early game which I argued and then you thought we're both town bc it feels like AA:MFA. why do you think it'd be different if BRO is scum?

also why should I cut back on a habit when I was 3 for 3 on my scumreads that game and the 4th scum was someone who I was scumreading before Nat townread him?

[pieguyn]

I'm townreading him because I am. It's good feelings. :3

why are you having good feelings about him?

also

Pretty sure both Pieguy and Bro are town because their argument sounds a lot like the argument Pie had with me in Ace Attorney mafia when we were both town.

why do you think the argument would sound different if BRO is scum?

[pieguyn]

hey zmuffin what's giving you reservations about BRO-scum

[pieguyn]

As for Bro, he does look to be scumhunting. He's not just setting his sights on one or two targets, but is analyzing quite a few people.

do you srsly think scumhunting is a towntell? it's easily faked

Early on, it looked like he panicked for a while and just went super defensive, but he's moved past that. I see town motivated analysis. I don't necessarily think he's right on all of his reads, like the strength of his scumread on you or his townread on Plum, but it doesn't look like lies to me. From either of you.

remember why he was defensive? it's cause I was pushing him hard right out of the gate. I had the upper hand bc he had just came in and as a result we got an insight into his true motivations early on. he's still being defensive as fuck by OMGUS'ing me hard the moment I come back into the thread (610), not to mention he stopped the push on me when I was gone with no real reason behind it by saying Kagami/F-16 were better leads and that he wasn't interested in putting up a case on me. the point is BRO stumbled hard and hasn't done anything really town since then to make me question my read on him

I think you two should stop fighting with each other and help me lynch Kagami. Or Kaze or Plum. But mostly Kagami.

why Kaze? you were dead set on Kagami or at least Plum so where did Kaze come from? you were clearly townreading him based off this

As noted above, some of you see it, too. Bro and Plum do.

Kaze could if he checked his ego a little.

Make scum pay for trying to trick us.

so why all of a sudden do you wanna lynch him? it feels like you're scum trying to work out a mislynch knowing I'm scumreading Kaze

[pieguyn]

While Bro is some amount of abrasive as both alignments, he is more intense and confrontational as town. Also, he uses more smilies as scum. >.>
(See 1475 and 1515 for reference)

do you think he can't fake as scum?

also, where in my argument with him was he being intense and/or confrontational?

ALSO YOU BROUGHT UP 1515 AND REMINDED ME THAT EVERY TIME I PUT EFFORT INTO GAMES I JUST LOSE
DIE

[pieguyn]

my reads haven't changed from here

here's where I'm currently at btw

town
Brian Skies
Bert
Kagami
Pieguyn
F-16_Fighting_Falcon

null-town
zMuffinMan
Tammy

null
ActionDan
Plum
mykonian

scum
Kazekirimaru <- indignation and apprehensiveness about possibly breaking the game + jump on counterwagon when BRO wagon was picking up steam. when pressured, claims it's confbias on my part with no explanation
BROseidon <- yeah
Paschendale <- his pushes are weird as fuck. looking through his ISO I also realized he never even explained his initial scumread on me (funny how it matches BRO's) and idk what exactly is up with his read on BRO. however, I'm having reservations bc he seems to be legitimately skeptical of plum+kagami. need more data here

[pieguyn]

actually move Kaze up a bit. he's still my first pick for 3rd scum but I'm less sure about him especially in the context of BRO+Pasch team. not sure who the 3rd would be in that case 0.0

[pieguyn]

Of the two, Dan seems hella more scummy than Bro.

what exactly is your read on Dan?

also, does anyone have reasons for Plum being scum that's not related to Kagami? too lazy to look through the thread and check sry

[pieguyn]

plz explain

[pieguyn]

Because I wouldn't expect F-16 to be so dense as town, and then try to use obfuscation to get under my skin.

wow nice scum argument again

this is the THIRD TIME he's pulled this shit. first on me, then on Kagami, now here. IME these kinds of arguments come way more from scum bc they're a convenient way to throw blame around based on smth that, when you really think about it, actually falls apart . and it's also a nice way of discrediting to boot bc he's implying the people he's up against don't have as much skill as they're supposed to. in practice these kinds of judgment calls are harder to make and only come after much more effort bc people are more inclined to question this kind of call. when someone consistently does weird things you're more inclined to believe they really might just be off for whatever reason as opposed to immediately reaching the conclusion they're either dumb or scum. however, this kind of reasoning apparently applies for ALL THREE OF HIS SCUMREADS

I'm probably just ignoring F-16 and Pie for the rest of the game, ftr.

can't win so you're dropping it? come on, I'm your "main focus now" so what are you going to do, ignore all your fake scumreads on the basis they're too dense so you don't have to do anything controversial that'll reveal your alignment? plz no

[pieguyn]

can someone who can read mastin tell me what was so terrible about his entrance posts?

@Kaze:

I kind of get you but I'm not sure if that's arrogance or if he's just being verbose like he usually is 0.0 iirc he never said he was explicitly going to walk in and save the slot awesome tits sause, he said F-16 thought he would. is there smth I'm missing here

inb4 BRO/F-16/Pasch scumteam and we wagoned all three fking scum earlier

[pieguyn]

RIP F-16-sama

[pieguyn]

inb4 I was right on my scumteam guess and that's why F-16 rep- ok I'll stop now \:D/

[pieguyn]

@mastin:

wat happened

[pieguyn]

PASCH

[pieguyn]

zmuffin T_T

also I'm feeling relatively comfortable with kaze town now. his recent efforts in the flavor discussion invalidate my idea that he was apprehensive about breaking the game and his fake case on mastin reminds me of how he was poking at TNE (?) with weak reasoning in AA:MFA and feels town motivated

kaze if you're scum I'm going to be so fking pissed

[pieguyn]

vote: Pasch

in the meantime can you explain where your Kaze scumread came from

also I don't see it either 0.0

[pieguyn]

kaze also likely scum

explain

[pieguyn]

anything specific as to why you think that?

[pieguyn]

@mastin:

do you think BRO's play is different from imperishable night?

@BRO/zmuffin:

do you think mastin's play is different from imperishable night?

[pieguyn]

he seems different to me. this mastin seems way more confident and more forceful than that mastin. however, idk if it's because he replaced in as opposed to playing from the start or what. I remember in that game he was obvtown and had a really genuine and transparent thought process throughout the whole game which I'm not seeing here. the way he talked to tammy seemed really off and felt like he was berating her a bit for not having an answer instead of explicitly trying to work it out, which is the last thing I'd expect from someone like mastin who enjoys working with people

I'm wondering bc some of this may be alignment indicative but I don't know exactly which of it is or not. in that game he was saying if his posts feel legitimate but aren't logical he's town and if his posts are rock solid but feel forced he's scum and I'm kind of leaning towards the latter here. and I'm conflicted cause I thought F-16 was town. so I'm hoping I'll get some clarity if I compare/contrast the two games

[pieguyn]

oh also mastin saw right through BRO in that game so I wanna know what he sees about him here

[pieguyn]

Oh balls.

My role PM didn't give me your alignment, though >:C

what does this mean?

I know I'm not pure vanilla because of ~reasons~, I want to know why you assume Eren has to be a strong PR. Or are you just spouting noise?

the phraseology here is really off. if you're not human vanilla why would say you

know

you're not human vanilla for ~reasons~, as opposed to just not being human vanilla? saying you know you're not implies the presence of hidden role info you normally wouldn't know but figured out. is this correct?

HAPPY SCUM DAY TO ME!

happy scumday \:D/

Of course I'm making a big deal out of it. Now, answer? Why do you assume Eren is a strong PR or scum? Are you basing this on flavour or what?

this is hilariously ironic

if you're making a big deal about it then aren't you spouting noise? or is it bc your fakeclaim was human vanilla and you wanna know why it won't work?

[pieguyn]

Be quiet when the adults are talking.

upset that I called you out on your slip?

also this is exactly why it was so ironic

[pieguyn]

What the hell do you think this is, words for the sake of typing words?

mastin what the hell. tammy just said that's what it was. and from what I can tell she explicitly said you being town was what was making her not have a handle on her reads and you being scum fixes that

what are you hoping to accomplish by talking about this? it feels like you're trying to discredit her read on you bc "omg you don't know who's scum if I'm town". it seems like a really odd angle to take, especially if you're trying to help her fix your read on you. and I don't get how you hope to work anything out by just telling her she's wrong over and over without trying to figure out why

This is me being confident? (Okay, forceful, yeah. That happens, y'know. When you replace in. Are the lead candidate for lynching. And your hydra partner is no longer in the game.) I have reads, but none of them particularly strong. You're looking town, and decently-strongly so, but even when it comes to you, I'm not getting the instant-townvibe I normally get. Basically, I'm having the opposite problem as in Touhou. There, I was thinking too many people town. Here, I'm thinking too many people scum, and that's a problem. I've got people who aren't. zMuf isn't, you're not, ActionDan isn't, I'm leaning towards Tammy being town (but I'm not sure), as just a few off the top of my head. But none of them have been coming as fastly and as strongly as they normally do.

Which is, y'know, why I'm actively trying to fix that.

if none of your reads are strong why are you so pissed off at tammy for not being confident in her reads?

in that game he was saying if his posts feel legitimate but aren't logical he's town and if his posts are rock solid but feel forced he's scum and I'm kind of leaning towards the latter here.

Hey, pie. Mind enlightening me on what in my posting

is

rock-solid? I'd love to see what you think I'm doing right. 'Cause, y'know. I don't. I'm winging it, and if there's something clicking, then I'd love to know.

I like to plan out what happens if one of my reads is wrong, so I kind of get where you're coming from. but you being so adamant about it feels really forced and awkward as it really doesn't matter

[pieguyn]

hi
kthx is a bad lynch. I'm still up to lynch pasch, if not go for mastin. plz and thx

[pieguyn]

Lynch-pool remains as it was, vote is following my favorite lynch

no get back on pasch. trust me, kthx is a bad lynch

[pieguyn]

pdodge
was on vacation

[pieguyn]

unvote

[pieguyn]

Why exactly are people voting for me? I get the OMGUS from Plum and Kagami, but other than expressing an unpopular opinion (which is correct - Kagami is scum), sticking to my guns and trying to convince the rest of you to vote for scum, what has me suddenly on the chopping block?

your pushes have been weird and I don't believe you actually believed kagami is scum. it's too convenient. the last thing scum needs is for a bunch of townies to be universally townread setting up for a strong townblock later. your initial push on kagami seemed like throwing dirt so that it wouldn't happen, although this is positional given she was a strong townread of mine. in retrospect now that there's more of a focus on her this doesn't feel as strong as it felt before but iirc just about everyone was townreading her earlier

You never change your mind on that

I feel forgotten

This post gives me bad feels, by the way, considering Bro wasn't on the Pasch wagon.

how in the flying fuck did you see that kthx was a bad lynch but you didn't connect it with BRO? especially when you

only had a null read on mykonian before kthx replaced in?

even I saw it and I had the strongest scumread ever on BRO. so you not seeing it, especially when you were thinking BRO town before, makes me really worried. I deduce that your idea that angry BRO = town BRO was a load of BS (which incidentally it is. see NY167. but BRO is town anyway) which resulted in this cogdis

this + your "slip" and the way you tried to discredit me afterward, plus the fact that I just found out via a completed game on my homesite that being annoyed at being deathtunneled by the same person every single game isn't a reliable towntell, plus the lack of anything town you've done all game (ending the day early with 11 days left is in no way pro-town) makes me fine with this

here I was questioning my scumread on you and you give me this shit. ftr while I was thinking about this game on vacation I figured out what naturally pings me so hard about you and BRO. I have no idea if you two actually do this or not but on a gut level your posts read to me as trying to strongarm the flow of the game which is an inherently scum strategy. but oh well

and just bc I don't feel like putting up with your shit, I'm fully expecting you to come in here and be like "lolol u derp" and keep hiding behind the curtain. if you do I'm pushing a PL on you. how's that sound?

mastin2 My read of Falcon says prob-town. Although, I agree with Kagami's sentiments regarding Mastin's most recent reads list. It doesn't actually say anything except him assigning town-reads and scum-reads.

do you know mastin like at all? there was a whole game where he kept doing this practically every post all of D1. would you rather he made up reasons?

sure he could be faking as scum but I'm p sure this isn't alignment indicative

Because he is also a scum-read. And why does it matter that I express it when other people have stated the same thing?

so you want a counterwagon to a wagon on your scumread?

bro/kthx, can you confirm that you

know

each other's alignment?

the only way they're not town is if they're both scum
which I'm not seeing at all. I'm 100% confident but I don't wanna out the reason for some reasons

It's a mixture of being confident in Plum town, Plum's case, and my gut. I feel good about this.

Did you really skim both their ISOs in three minutes?

what is with this defense? also, why is plum town? kaze x plum team much

You just said you were good on Pasch.

You look like you're giving it one last shot to turn this around onto Plum. It's a 50-50 shot in your eyes, and then you can just hammer. If you hammer scum you soak up residual townpoints and if you hammer town you can go "lol I was just ending the day sorry guys =("

No. This is wrong.

wow there is so much scumtone here it's not even funny

this feels like scum who sees their mislynch slipping away and wants to stop it. it seems manipulative

Mastin, the hell? Keep calling me scum without interfacing with me directly? That's not goodposting.

You're scum because you're scum.

You're posting like scum, you're pushing like scum, your reads reek like scum, everything about you seems rotten to the core.

mastin is town. this kind of vague statement is smth I'd expect from mastin town and feels like the way he went about his BRO read in imperishable night. this is kind of positional in that it's the same read as mine but I don't think it affects anything

And you know this, how? I always try to avoid claiming. It usually doesn't stop you from getting lynched unless you have a really strong power, but then guarantees a night kill if you do.

this pings me hard. the nuance of this is that he said Dan's argument is wrong explicitly bc he apparently had no way of knowing this. in other words, bc Dan had no way of knowing this, pasch is town. his focus is not on Dan being wrong, it's on how Dan has no way of proving he's right. bc the statement isn't wrong in the first place

I'm really bad at explaining this kind of shit

[pieguyn]

as scummy as pasch is, he seems like a mislynch. kaze is going really hard on him all game and he's near confirmed scum. everything kaze has done makes sense in the context of trying to score a mislynch on pasch (ending the day with 11 days left. srsly) and I'll be surprised as fk if he'd bus a teammate like that. on the other hand, the gamestate makes way more sense with plum as scum 0.0

I also don't think a neighborizer + neighborhood is too unlikely given the neighborizer only has one neighbor at a time. and I'm p sure BRO/kthx isn't relevant here

vote: Plum
L-1

@Tammy:

can you elaborate on Bert not sorting you? also BRO/kthx is 100% legit and on top of that I'm sure you shouldn't worry about them in this context. I don't wanna elaborate bc ~reasons~ unless they are ok with it and if they are they might as well just say it themselves. also zmuffin wasn't serious about being an IC.

also, that's another point in favor of kaze scum and also explains why zmuffin was saying kaze didn't have the balls to try to lynch him earlier (if zmuffin is town and was townreading you then kaze would from his POV be scum assuming scum in the neighborhood)

@mastin:

what do you think of kaze's defense of Plum?

in other words, thoughts on {Kaze, Plum, Brian} team?

now I'm expecting kaze to roll in and be like "omg why u no vote pasch?!?!?!" plz no

[pieguyn]

tammy, trust me on this. BRO/kthx isn't relevant here. if pasch is scum it would be for other reasons, not that those other reasons don't exist. but for me everything makes so much more sense if plum is scum. kind of like your mastin read

Just try to push a PL on me and see how far you fucking get.

curious, how familiar are you with the flavor?

also
if you, zmuffin, and tammy are a neighborhood why haven't you been more proactive about sorting zmuffin? instead you sorted him in a really weird and passive way. I'd expect you'd be hell bent on first figuring out if there's scum in the neighborhood and pushing him into the ground if you think he's scum. it seems more like you did it based off convenience, while pushing a mislynch elsewhere

[pieguyn]

why are you asking me a stupid question.

Do you or do you not see Bert actually sorting me? Because if you do, please point it out.

I, just to keep this moving along, see him just calling me obvtown. Is that in your world sorting??? Cuz, if so, explain it to me.

OF fucking course muffin wasn't serious about being an ic, jeezuz, look at what he's saying, he's still saying there's no way town will lynch him cuz role, that can't be true if all the roles claimed so far are town.

no I mean his whole thing about that wasn't serious in the first place

I see Bert saying he has no idea how to read you and then this

The way Tammy talks makes Mastin look so scummy.

What a town Tammy

/phone

That was my instant reaction and thought when I saw you replace yourself with the hydra. Tammy felt some concern too, so I can see where she's coming from. As for how it's indicative of alignment, I feel that stunt looks scummy.

You have been wagoned before as town, but what happened here in these circumstances is something different altogether. It's like never before seen footage. Totally unexpected and a curveball.

it's kind of minimal but it's at least smth. does he usually do more than this when it comes to sorting you?

[pieguyn]

vote: Kaze

[pieguyn]

it was a conjecture based off smth in thread

however it makes a lot of sense due to mechanics. I can elaborate if BRO/kthx are ok with me possibly outing smth they might not want revealed, but they might as well just reveal it themselves in that case

[pieguyn]

kk

VCA incoming soon but these wagons were boring T_T I dunno how much I'll get from it

[pieguyn]

I'm assuming BRO and kthx are town even though they haven't flipped

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (5):

Mykonian

,

ActionDan

, Kazekirimaru, Brian Skies,

BROseidon

Paschendale (2):

Plum

, Tammy

BROseidon

(5):

Pieguyn

, Bert, Paschendale, Kagami, F-16

Not Voting (1): zMuffinMan

we can't really tell anything from this one. both wagons look moderately, but not too, scum driven. it makes the most sense in the context of two town wagons and having the scum split up on each one. Kaze and Brian aren't looking very good in the context of the F-16 wagon under the assumption of at least 1 scum on the wagon which seems p reasonable

that said, if I'm wrong about Kaze/Brian scum, then the F-16 wagon is town driven. this would also implicate zmuffin considering the BRO wagon started after the F-16 wagon and if Kaze is scum then he's the only one left in the neighborhood assuming scum in the neighborhood (tammy is really fkin town). so either Kaze is scum or we're dealing with possible zmuffin/mastin team (oh god). from what I could tell zmuffin was fine with both wagons as indicated by him saying he'd quickhammer F-16 and I could totally see him bussing a teammate like that. on the other hand, especially given mastin's townread on zmuffin, it seems more likely they'd be cross defending each other as opposed to zmuffin hard bussing F-16, but that's speculation and Kaze scum is more likely IMO. it would also implicate the unknowns on the BRO wagon bc counterwagon {Bert, Paschendale, Kagami}

Kazekirimaru (1): Bert
Bert (1):

kthxbye

kthxbye

(1): mastin2
Kagami (1): Paschendale
mastin2 (2):

ActionDan

, zMuffinMan
Paschendale (5):

Plum

, Kazekirimaru,

Pieguyn

, Tammy, Kagami

Not Voting (2): Brian Skies,

BROseidon

-------------

Plum

(5): mastin2, Brian Skies, Paschendale,

kthxbye

,

BROseidon

mastin2 (1): zMuffinMan
Paschendale (5):

Plum

,

Pieguyn

, Kagami, Kazekirimaru,

ActionDan

Not Voting (2): Bert, Tammy

again both of these wagons aren't really town driven, but not really scum driven either. I'm liking Brian for scum on the plum wagon and Kaze on the Pasch wagon (I still like Kagami for town so this looks really bad for Kaze). 1063 could also be indicative of scumteam-with-Brian splitting up on the two wagons given the original wagon was on his scumread (Pasch) and it doesn't make any sense to start a counterwagon in that case. however, the other scenario is that Pasch is scum with him so this doesn't tell us anything

and again Kaze isnt looking good at all on the assumption of at least 1 scum on the Pasch wagon

Plum

(7): mastin2, Brian Skies, Paschendale,

kthxbye

,

BROseidon

,

pieguyn

, Bert
mastin2 (1): zMuffinMan
Paschendale (4):

Plum

, Kagami, Kazekirimaru,

ActionDan

not much we can really tell from this one either

on top of that Kaze has been on a major wagon every single time and the others on the wagons he's on are mostly town. so Kaze seems like a good bet. Kagami has also been on a wagon every time but I'm still liking her for town.

[pieguyn]

as for reads

town
BROseidon
Kagami <- the way she went about the flavor discussion early D1 was town as fuck. still think she's town. I'm having a shitton of trouble seeing her scum after she tried to figure out a way to outright break the game
Pieguyn
Tammy
kthxbye

null-town
mastin2 <- his posting near the end of D1 was better and reinforces my townread on F-16 slot. however, I'm not writing him off yet. I'll go back and look at him later if smth doesn't add up
Rancid Broderick Drake

null
Paschendale <- as scummy as his actions have been so far, his posting seems genuine and I get the feeling he's the mislynch of the century. in other words, head says scum heart says town

scum
Brian Skies
Kazekirimaru
Bert <- he's here p much entirely by POE. and that hammer was fking awful

so my guess for scumteam is {Brian, Kaze, Bert}. if Kaze somehow flips town then we need to take a serious look at mastin and zmuffin and it'd probably be smth like {zmuffin, Brian/mastin, Bert}

also that NK seems weird as hell. Dan probably crumbed a PR somewhere and scum found it. and who saw it?

Dan Town. Mostly a gut-read and because a little birdie told me so.

dingdingding

@mastin

what do you think of Kagami's early D1 posting? also can you elaborate on your Dan read?

@zmuffin:

what do you make of Kaze being on mastin-slot's wagon? also what do you think of his last few D1 posts?

[pieguyn]

predictable scum is predictable. I knew you'd walk in here and try to discredit me like that. at least if you were town I'd expect some agreement on the Brian read considering you were poking at him near the end of yesterday

although Idid laugh at the schrodinger's box comment

[pieguyn]

like seriously? I pointed out an obvious slip Brian made and instead you choose to discredit me

Brian x Kaze 2014

[pieguyn]

Why weren't one of the claimed pseudo-Masons killed? ._.

LIKE THIS IS A PERFECT EXPLANATION FOR WHY NEITHER OF THE PSEUDO-MASONS WERE KILLED

in other words: gotcha, scumfuck

[pieguyn]

well that's interesting. fakegod quite obviously had that planned out. the way FG did it it was 100% fakeable and there was nothing whatsoever that would stop him from doing it as scum. not to mention I don't really know how much fakegod's plan would even help and it certainly wouldn't break the entire setup. this felt different in that it lookde like she was legitimately trying to figure out shit. the way she want about it felt town and seemed like it came from an angle of having an idea and trying to get the most info possible while withholding info from scum

I'm really bad at explaining this. does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?

[pieguyn]

Actually, pie, your wagons summary is making me think {mastin, pasch, bert}

yeah a lot of it depends on whether both wagons were town or if it's town v. scum. and there's really nothing indicating which one it is

if Brian's claim is true then it's looking even worse for Kaze bc of the first VC

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (5): Mykonian, ActionDan, Kazekirimaru, Brian Skies, BROseidon
Paschendale (2): Plum, Tammy
BROseidon (5): Pieguyn, Bert, Paschendale, Kagami, F-16

Not Voting (1): zMuffinMan

bc Kaze is the only one left on the F-16 wagon. thus if there's 1 scum on the wagon it has to be him by POE. however, if F-16 is scum it's very possible the wagon was all town driven

Plum (5): mastin2, Brian Skies, Paschendale, kthxbye, BROseidon
mastin2 (1): zMuffinMan
Paschendale (5): Plum, Pieguyn, Kagami, Kazekirimaru, ActionDan

Not Voting (2): Bert, Tammy

looking at this one if pasch is scum I'm inclined to agree mastin is scum with him, and vice versa. this might clear Kaze bc he's on both scum wagons and he was pushing Pasch really really hard but I wouldn't put it past him at all

this is exactly why I'm worried that Kaze isn't more skeptical of Brian. bc if he's town then Brian would be highly likely to be scum

looking back I also noticed this

Actually pie I think there's a chance you're just bad.

But yeah.

Kaze really has no reason to say this. we have one completed game (AA:MFA) and I pushed him early in that game. but after I stopped and moved on, I called 2/3 of the scumteam and the SK. so he should know I'm not "just bad" just bc I scumread him every time, and that my reads can actually be p good otherwise. instead he tries to downplay my skill level so no one listens to me. this is a scum reaction
talking about AA:MFA, when I pushed him in that game, he got all angry and indignated. it was really evident he was frustrated at how wrong I was about him. this is a town reaction

overall I think a Kaze lynch gives the most information and he's highly likely to be scum. if not I agree {Bert, Pasch, mastin} is p likely although we can mb switch one of them out for zmuffin

what's your current thoughts on Kaze? what do you think about how he was asking why neither of the pseudo-masons died and then had no interest in my possible explanation?

[pieguyn]

actually now that I think about it even if Kaze is scum Bert and/or mastin are probably also scum. mostly bc there's no one else left and idk if Kaze-scum would really push Pasch-scum that hard

[pieguyn]

Also potentially BS claim.

this means Brian Skies here right

and I wouldn't put it past GIF at all considering that's in no small part how you all won that game

[pieguyn]

I'm not fucking scum, pie. I'm never fucking scum and you're always fucking wrong when you read me. Get the fuck out of my face and push someone worthwhile before I find some way to reach through the internet and tear your fucking eyes out.

oh no I'm really scared
srsly, why so defensive? it's literally just me and Pasch (who you think is scum) on you and it's not looking like anyone else wants to lynch you today

like does anyone else think this post seems fake or is it just me

[pieguyn]

I think there's no way in hell him/kthx are scum

let's suppose they were lovers, and the mod made a 3:10 setup and was like "hey let's make a cool mechanic where all the townies get 1-shot commutes". and then "oh also these people should be lovers".

what alignment would the mod make the lovers to balance out all the 1-shot commutes?

they could both be scum but 4 scum in a 13p game is fking stupid. the only way that could be is if they're a FG-style 3rd party lover team like in wingate (?) which is unlikely cause there was only 1 kill

[pieguyn]

BRO if Tammy was scum she wouldn't push about this in thread. her scumbuddies would have it all figured out in their QT and they'd just kill you two off silently. or even worse they'd force a fking surprise LYLO on us like imperishable night

trust me she's town here

[pieguyn]

I'm fine with massclaim

even if it completely fking screwed us over in AA:MFA
although it might have been kinda marquis's fault but who cares

[pieguyn]

no we were just screwed from the start bc 9-3-1 setup =.=

[pieguyn]

marquis was so obvtown that game why the fk didn't you all listen to me T_T

[pieguyn]

yeah I'm ok with MC

[pieguyn]

oh are all the people with 1-shot commutes claiming if they used them or not

I'm not sure if that's a good idea

[pieguyn]

that's what I would have thought but idk how the hell Nati's black magic works. Nati confirm plz

[pieguyn]

what do you think of how he asked why neither of the pseudo-masons died then when I gave an explanation he didn't seem at all interested in it?

and you think the F-16 wagon was entirely town driven?

[pieguyn]

also that NK seems weird as hell. Dan probably crumbed a PR somewhere and scum found it. and who saw it?

Dan Town. Mostly a gut-read and because a little birdie told me so.

dingdingding

[pieguyn]

Alright, cool? There were plenty of "I know this guy is town"s in more obvious fashion yesterday. I don't understand why Dan got killed over the louder two "conftowns" yesterday. Still.

scum prob thought they were lovers and wanted to do a surprise LYLO. given they obv knew Dan was PR he'd be practically conftown eventually anyway

anyway the point is your thought process is contradictory as fuck. earlier you were floating WIFOM about "herp derp I wonder why Dan died" which in itself is probably a scumtell bc it lets you look like you're doing smth when you're really not. but then I offered a possible explanation for why said kill happened that happened to involve one of your scumreads scumslipping. if you were scumreading Brian you should be especially interested in this, but instead you forget all about it and move straight onto the "you can't read me" card?

also you should really know I'm not "just bad" after seeing how accurate my reads were in AA:MFA after I moved away from you. it seems odd to say I'm "just bad" just bc I scumread you every time. especially when my other scumreads are the same as yours (Bert, mastin). it feels scum motivated in that you're trying to downplay my skill level instead of being legitimately annoyed like you were in AA:MFA. explain that comment plz

[pieguyn]

Roles are apparently superbly important here for finding scum. From what we can tell, many players "know" each others' alignment, though a large number of them don't want to reveal why for ~reasons~. If all the claims are to be believed, there are a set of best friends, as well as a one-directional best friends, all on top of a JoAT and a flavor cop, all on top of 8ish one-shot commuters, which is absurdly town-sided, even if the neighborhoods/neighborizer is given zero town-weight. Something is amiss.

I have smth to say about this but I wanna wait till MC finishes

[pieguyn]

so I've been completely off, when my scumreads besides you are mostly the same as yours? plz no

[pieguyn]

also it'll be more worthwhile to continue this after MC I think

[pieguyn]

no I have Bert and mastin as scum atm

[pieguyn]

mastin is sitting there stalling

Kaze why do you think scum-Pasch would claim a result like that? I'll put the whole fking thing on hold for now. plz answer this for me

[pieguyn]

mastin claim

[pieguyn]

Your slot was uncommonly aloof to the weak discussion for it being so relevant to you.

^^^ this

[pieguyn]

Kagami's posting has seemed mildly but not severely town, to the point where I could see Kagami as either but lean towards town. As for Dan, I typically prefer not to beat dead horses. (No pun intended.) Basically, this was the him I remember from Walking Dead, rather than the him I remember from Pinkmin.

srsly?

it's like you can't recognize town motivation if it slapped you in the face. I get you didn't see it firsthand cause you weren't in the game then, but the way she went about it was so town it's not even funny. and I really don't get how the hell you think Pasch is more town than Kagami. keeping mislynch options open much?

as for the weak claim it's almost as if they had a fakeclaim that wasn't weak and then mastin decided to go with the one that was weak. here Kagami called for a 3rd weak claim:

Third person to claim weak has to say what it means, btw, so please don't give it away, bert.

and F-16 never gave it. I really don't see a scenario in which this isn't a scumclaim 0.0

wow looks like Kaze was right about you all along
either that or he's bussing you

[pieguyn]

then why say anything?

is it bc your partner just scumclaimed?

[pieguyn]

that's not weak. sounds to me like you just took the weak modifier and added it to a non-weak role

how did that quote go again? "paraphrasing your role PM takes seconds, fixing your fakeclaim's mistakes takes an eternity"?

[pieguyn]

@mastin: here

well that's interesting. fakegod quite obviously had that planned out. the way FG did it it was 100% fakeable and there was nothing whatsoever that would stop him from doing it as scum. not to mention I don't really know how much fakegod's plan would even help and it certainly wouldn't break the entire setup. this felt different in that it lookde like she was legitimately trying to figure out shit. the way she want about it felt town and seemed like it came from an angle of having an idea and trying to get the most info possible while withholding info from scum

I'm really bad at explaining this. does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?

I can't really link exact things bc it's more of the way she went about it, but I can try if you really want

[pieguyn]

weak means you don't even have maneuver gear to begin with

you just took the weak modifier and threw it on top of your non-weak role bc you realized claiming weak wouldn't work and you couldn't redact it to a normal human

[pieguyn]

then you're not weak

[pieguyn]

ok so it's not as much of a scumclaim I would have liked

it's still sketchy as fuck how F-16 didn't claim weak when Kagami asked and so I'm inclinde to say it's a fakeclaim, but oh well

also don't we have to finish MC first

[pieguyn]

I looked into that and muffin wasn't here till after the weak discussion was over and by then there was no need for a 3rd weak claim

and idk. I assumed we'd finish MC before lynching someone and it looked like they were already moving on to lynch Bert

[pieguyn]

Hmm the thing with kaze is if he's scum and can use his double vote in lylo were screwed.

I have something to say about this but I wanna wait till MC finishes first

[pieguyn]

.......
ok I wanted to wait but can someone plz tell me why the hell town would have that role

[pieguyn]

no why would a town double voter have a condition that disables it in LYLO/MYLO

[pieguyn]

if he was scum it wouldn't be a fakeclaim he'd be a scum double voter who lied about the LYLO restriction

either way this should prob wait till after MC if at all

[pieguyn]

and then zmuffin would have most likely quicklynched the fuck out of him for claiming vanilla

[pieguyn]

I have a picture of what I think the setup looks like and that's not the reason

it's better to wait till MC finishes so I can confirm if it's true or not

[pieguyn]

Kagami how do you like the chance Kaze and mastin are crossbussing the shit out of each other?

[pieguyn]

Mastin doesn't bus.

where'd you get this from?

just bc he has a whole thread going "stop bussing" doesn't mean he doesn't bus. and I know I read he used to bus a lot

[pieguyn]

Jean Kirstein, human vanilla

kthx is the last one left right

[pieguyn]

I don't particularly see why Armin would be Vengeful flavourwise.

I can see it, but just to make sure

@muffinati:

what's the flavor for your ability?

[pieguyn]

Muffin said that because he knew I was a neighbour. Obviously I wasn't vanilla.

@zmuffin:

is this correct

[pieguyn]

vote: mastin

I agree Pasch should work himself out. I prefer a mastin lynch atm

[pieguyn]

Nati make sure zmuffin doesn't miss my question. it's important

[pieguyn]

from what I can tell their whole in thread discussion was about why Eren had to be a strong town PR as opposed to "vanilla". given they knew each other were neighbors it's p obvious they were ignoring the neighborhood in the context of that argument. is this correct?

[pieguyn]

I can't be Human Vanilla? Sup with that?

you're not vanilla and if you claim it you need to be autolynched

I know I'm not pure vanilla because of ~reasons~, I want to know why you assume Eren has to be a strong PR. Or are you just spouting noise?

I know I'm not pure vanilla because of ~reasons~, I want to know why you assume Eren has to be a strong PR. Or are you just spouting noise?

why is this even a point of contention for you?

like what are you even expecting from my answer here?

you are the one

who is making noise about this. it was an off-hand comment in my read on you, and you're making a big deal of it

kaze and you are neighbors. Kaze was wondering why he couldn't be vanilla, with the knowledge both of you are neighbors. and then he asked why he couldn't be strong PR. so it's p obvious Kaze was wondering why he couldn't be vanilla outside of the neighborhood. I assumed zmuffin's 924 was also referring to Kaze's role outside the neighborhood. is this correct?

[pieguyn]

no this is from zmuffin's POV. they knew each other were neighbors, so I assumed zmuffin's question was referring to Kaze's role outside their neighborhood

Kaze's 925 probably confirms it already but I just wanna make sure

[pieguyn]

POE + he's apparently a weak role but F-16 didn't claim weak when Kagami called for a 3rd weak claim. it makes me think it's a fakeclaim and F-16 was originally gonna claim smth else

[pieguyn]

ok so when it looks like your "scumread" might actually get lynched you don't wanna switch

how convenient

[pieguyn]

>you're scumreading mastin
>Bert will work himself out by tonight
>you're on Bert and don't wanna switch over to mastin

[pieguyn]

Wagon analysis, posting habits, and his "reads" all point to mastin as scum, as well as good ole' PoE.

My opinion on the pasch-bert thing is that it's likely to be revealed overnight given the massclaiming, so I'm willing to let that sit for now.

also if tammy is scum then it'll work itself out bc her claim is basically a "kill me" role. I don't think she is tho

[pieguyn]

Mm. You're afraid of me hammering. That's cool. I get you.

kaze you're so transparent

your plan to paint zmuffin as scum in the neighborhood didn't work so now you have to switch to tammy. hardly ggs

[pieguyn]

looking through your ISO I did see you think tammy is town but I don't get what your conversation with her was all about then. you seem way too skeptical and if you're townreading her then I'm inclined to agree it seems like fake scumhunting. can you clarify exactly what your stance on tammy is?

[pieguyn]

actually

I'm a liability and the lynch in MYLO tomorrow if I survive.

why do you say tomorrow is MYLO?

is it bc Kaze is a scum double voter?

[pieguyn]

I think it could be

like even if mastin somehow flips town and it ends up being 3-6 he could be hiding smth. I don't even wanna fking think about it

I fking hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate surprise LYLOs

just the thought of one makes me wanna quit mafia forever

[pieguyn]

it's over now?
also I still wanna lynch mastin. that "slip" is probably just me being paranoid

also I had this typed up but didn't post it

Fuck bussing. Have you considered instead the possibility that, y'know, I'm town and he's scum?

yeah. and I'm saying that we shouldn't rule you/kaze out as a possible team just bc you two are attacking the shit out of each other

given you have a whole article about the "veteran's fallacy" where you basically say you should never rule anything out entirely just bc it would "never" happen, I'd expect you to know this

Okay. Let's play ball.

IF F-16 was scum, was he given a fakeclaim? If so...then why wouldn't he plan to use it? Why would he plan to use something else? What would he claim?
If he was scum with something viable to claim, why would I as scum decide not to claim that? I do have a meta of weaponizing the truth. Claiming town roleblocker as a scum roleblocker, for instance. Why discard that for something that is less true, and thus, more likely to bite me in the ass?

I don't like this line of questioning so I'm shutting it down right here. this is scum motivation. you're asking me to guess smth that I have no way in hell of possibly knowing bc you know I have no way of knowing it

There's no reason because, bluntly, a scum-F16 doesn't work that way, nor does a scum-me. Yes, this is wifom. No, I don't give a damn, because you're arguing using wifom yourself and the only counter to that is itself wifom.

no my argument is that a F-16 with a weak role would have given Kagami the 3rd weak claim she requested. he didn't, therefore he is scum. the bit about fakeclaims is just speculation as to what might have happened

[pieguyn]

don't fking hammer yet

the whole Bert/Pasch thing will work itself out tonight. either Pasch got roleblocked or Bert is ascetic or smth like that. if it's the latter we'll know and Bert is almost certainly scum. if it's the former idk what will happen. Kagami seems to have a better idea than me although idk what it is

[pieguyn]

Yay! Can you double vote me now then? My vote's still on myself. I'm at lynch -1. You're already voting me once.

No. That basically steals info from the town.

then why did you wanna end D1 with 11 days left? if you believed this then you wouldn't have wanted to do that, but instead you basically said we should lynch immediately

The Pasch wagon lost steam. He's trying to rekindle its fire, so to speak. Don't waste your time arguing semantics with me.

Cut the day short? We found scum. We generally lynch scum when we find it.

[pieguyn]

I'm saying if someone else targets you and their action fails then we can be way more confident of you-scum. as it is mastin is a better lynch

on the other hand we might get smth else that somehow confirms you as town or otherwise makes it less likely you're scum. I don't have anything specific in mind but mastin is a better lynch atm

[pieguyn]

kaze's powers almost certainly don't work in mylo/lylo just as he said. That would be too stupid and I can't imagine it getting through review, especially if he's scum.

how about an extra scumkill that works even when it would be LYLO without it? that's p much the exact same thing as this and that got allowed. see: imperishable night http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32587

I'm seriously confused. Kaze is full of shit, right? Nobody's hammered? And I seriously missed the catalyst for for this Mastin push. And I don't get how Bert or I will be "worked out" via tonight's night actions. Are we getting investigated?

the way I see it is if we observe both of you for another night then we'll get more information from night actions, etc. that could help us figure out what your roles/alignments are. e.g. if someone does an action on Bert and it fails then he's probably a scum ascetic or similar. there's a lot of confusion as to what happened N1 and having another night could help us figure it out. thus, it's better to lynch someone who's not you or Bert today

mastin is scum bc {BRO, Tammy, me, Kagami, kthx} are all town and you and muffinati are probably town

my current guess for scumteam is {Kaze, mastin, Bert}. I'm inclined to agree with Tammy's read on Bert but I also agree it's better to not lynch him today. if it's not him it's probably Brian instead

[pieguyn]

...wat

[pieguyn]

You just reminded me of that game where you were a Jester, and Titus was with us - some Marathon game in the past. That was some fun times, man. <3

Anyways, what are your conclusions from your reaction test?

[pieguyn]

we're not fking lynching Bert today. help me lynch mastin

[pieguyn]

hey guys I'm a triplevoter restless spirit

vote: BRO

vote2: BRO

vote3: BRO

I wish I had more votes I could pile on BRO