NG 1479: Somebody's Gonna Die! (OVER!)

[jon_h61]

/confirm

@ espionage You should add - ALWAYS announce when you put someone at L-1, and make sure of the vote count before voting.

[jon_h61]

VOTE: vote Espenonage

Did not like post 18. Seems too keen to imply he's town for no reason.

PEdit: @Dritan

Second Game - first completed in sig.

VOTE: Victor
He seems to be implying that he's Town accusing Espeonage of implying he's Town.

[jon_h61]

@ Driton I'm trying to figure you out. How many games have you played, and where?

You talk about the usefulness of our vote, but bemoan it being used. You're not making sense to me.

I'll tell you the usefulness of our votes. Beside lynching scum, they can help us (Town) figure out a slot's alignment by watching how the person reacts under pressure.

VOTE:Edosurist

Very open about his experience in this game, and is already talking about killing people off

Please explain what is scummy about this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Drone

@ Victor My vote on you was half RVS, half real. The way your post read to me was that you were calling yourself Town by accusing someone else of calling themselves Town. But I did understand what you were trying to imply.

[jon_h61]

I'm absolutely against a No Lynch, but I really don't want the Day to end this early. I'd like to hear Dritan's reads and his views before he gets another vote.

There's others I'd like to hear opinions from too.

I think Victor and Edos are Town at this early juncture.

Yuriko reads fishy to me. Is English your first language?

Drone needs to get in here and post more. Tell us a little about yourself.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Drone

[jon_h61]

Why the vote on Drone if you think Yuriko is reading fishy to you?

umm... I only have one vote.

Besides, I asked her a question I wanted answered to that'd help me decide how better to handle her.

More after I grab a quick bite to eat.

[jon_h61]

Also, really thinking about it, me and Dritan were both replacements in this game. Majority (meaning 99% of the time) of the time it's done by those who were just given VT and find it boring to be that role and not play the game expecting some PR. Him claiming VT does make sense and I think he is a VT. Calling him a safe lynch sounds real scummy to me.

I've played enough Mafia to know this is blatantly untrue. You're not even attempting to consider whether or not they flaked, or any other mitigating circumstances. VT is the role I like best, it's a harder role to play, making the game more interesting.

If you want a free pass card, you'll have to do better than that.

thats just dumb. scums always stay in shadow at the start trying to evade answering questions in order not to make mistakes

Too many people are making these kind of blanketing statements. Scum doesn't

always

play one way or another. If things were that easy Town would win a lot more often. If you're Town, I hope you're going to use more than absolutes in your scum hunting.


@ Victor Why did you ask for the Role claim? The only time you might get a claim from me is if it's the person holding the hammer. Normally this alone would earn my vote, but I've got more to read and I get the feeling there's a lot of inexperience in this Town.

[jon_h61]

I understand you have one vote but it just seems weird to me that you would pick Drone and not the person you feel is fishy. Still, why the vote on Drone?

I was giving her a chance to reply. It seems you think people have to act in exact ways or they're scum.

Back to my reason for Drone's vote. I'd just got home from going to the Doctor. Quickly read the thread, decided I wasn't going to vote Driton, (who was my main suspect for a vote that morning before I left). I asked a few questions, decided on a place for my vote for the night. Actually a lot of the reasoning for placing my vote on Drone was because it was safe. It probably wouldn't lead to a lynch before I woke up in the morning. Then went to bed.

I'm still in the process of rereading the thread. I read it once this morning right after waking up. I will say I didn't exactly get warm fuzzy feelings from your scum hunting. I'll have more to say on the matter after I get a chance to finish rereading. It seemed you were just shotgunning out suspicions hoping something would stick. If I decide I was wrong after I'm done I'll apologize, but for now you're leaning scum for me.

[jon_h61]

EBWOP I had placed my vote before I went to bed the night before, but as I was leaving for the Doc's, Dritan was still suspicious to me. I

think

, I'd have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that's the way it played out.

Anyway, I felt pretty secure in my belief that Drone wouldn't be lynched before I could get back to the thread.

[jon_h61]

@ Hidden It sure sounds like it when you say 99% of replacements are VT, while saying you were a replacement

[jon_h61]

@ Hidden You'd be better off reading a few games before saying I'm making it up. Ask the other more experienced players their opinion on this if you think I'm blowing smoke.

[jon_h61]

AND I've seen scum replaced many times too, so there's that. Do you want me to forage through

my

games to prove this. I would, but I don't want to.

[jon_h61]

I'm of the opinion that no claims should be given unless someone states intent to hammer once the person has been at L-1. Hammering without a claim is, again, an admission of guilt.

QFT

[jon_h61]

PEdit: @Jon_H - Why wouldn't we get a claim? As I already stated I'm not repeating my last game and seeing a Power Role get lynched Day 1.

You

weren't holding the hammer, you couldn't have lynched them. By asking for the claim you just narrowed down the pool where the PRs' are. If we believe the claim.

There's more benefit for scum to want this info than Town. The wagon still had a good chance of dissipating, but now it's too late.

You can just call me jon, or Jon.

[jon_h61]

@ Victor Why ask for the claim if you weren't at that moment going to swing the hammer? Any time before that only helps scum and hurts Town. That's the issue I'm asking about.

[jon_h61]

@ Everyone

I was going through the thread. When I post I'll put an @ in every time I'm speaking to someone. If there's not an @, then I'm speaking to Town and should be taken as addressed to you. If that's understood, I hope it takes out any misunderstandings of things I say. If you have questions ask.

I know this post doesn't have any scumhunting, but I hope it makes for better understanding of who what is directed to, and what is meant.


A Espeonage I hope you get feeling better soon.

[jon_h61]

^ A = @. lul, duh.

[jon_h61]

My Reads at this time.

Dristan I'm not really understanding the arguments against him, but rest assured I'm going to give my views on them soon. Scum might be on it... He might be new Town, but he just may be scum. I don't want him lynched just yet. I would though, in a pinch.

Drone completely null. If anyone else has a read, please share it.

Edos A lot of Game Theory mixed in, but mistakes understanding how the game works abound. He has stated reads. He hasn't committed any fatal mistakes yet. Leaning Town.

Espe He's done a good job of helping Town along the way. Nothing suspicious, leans Town.

Hidden Probably scum, might be where my first serious vote goes. Deserves it's own post.

Victor I'll say Town for now. I like most of his posts.

Voided I'm going to guess maybe lurky scum? Like I said nothing to support the read only a guess. We'll know more as he posts again.

Yuriko I'm going to go Town on this slot. Very intelligent questions and observations.

@ Yuriko Yes your grammar is great, and you're easily understood. Some players not of English speaking countries don't come across quite as understandable. (No slurs intended). It was the fact it was so good that made me ask.

"These views are the poster's and do not reflect the views of the Forum as a whole, and should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism. The poster reserves the right to change these views with or without notice."

[jon_h61]

@ Hidden If you're Town, please don't soft claim VT like that. If you're Town you're limiting where the PRs' are. Don't make any claims other than Town unless asked to make a claim before being hammered. Don't say things like "You vote for me, your not losing anything major and not killing anything major". If you're Town you're doing scum's legwork for them.

Try to keep your Role PM a secret until right before before your lynch. Never volunteer it, make scum work for it.

[jon_h61]

@ Edos I'm talking about ideas on No-Lynching, and other things. Not things you've done. I said you commented on things other people were talking about. Not that you were doing those things.

[jon_h61]

What was wrong with my disclaimer of my reads? I thought it was cute.

[jon_h61]

How do you read town from his content, but lurky scum from VW's? (excluding the fact that Espe's essentially been V/LA)

Espe looked to be attempting to start scum hunting before his accident. You can't say the same for VW.

[jon_h61]

@ Yuriko You used the term "fishy" in posts 46 and 53. When I'd made my post 78 I was just getting ready for bed after a long day, and quickly perused the thread. Your use of the word stuck with me and there wasn't much more from your posts that ATM I wanted to comment on.

I should have asked about your use of English in it's own paragraph, it might have avoided some confusion. I asked because you said you were in Hong Kong and you seemed to have a good grasp on it's use. I could write up a long explanation, but the tl:dr is just that I was curious.

@jon: you thought I was fishy before asking me if English is my first language. If you thought my English was fine why did you find that I was fishy and why would my language background matter? After I told you it's my second language you're convinced I'm town? Please explain. What was fishy about me and why the sudden change in read?

It didn't have anything to do with me changing my read. That read was tenuous at best. It was you probing of the other players that changed my "fishy" weak read to a leaning Town read.

Another example of how easily it is for one thing to be said, but someone to take it differently.

[jon_h61]

How do you read town from his content, but lurky scum from VW's? (excluding the fact that Espe's essentially been V/LA)

Espe looked to be attempting to start scum hunting before his accident. You can't say the same for VW.

I disagree on the part of "attempt" to scum hunting coz he hasn't done anything yet. Still he's less scummy IMO coz he's on LA for a reason that I tend to believe instead of lurking like drone. This the null read on him and scummy read on drone for me. I hope to see some input from espe soon.

I

again

read both of them. If espe hadn't hurt himself when he did I'd bet this wouldn't even be an issue. If anyone can read the two and say they are equal in terms of scumhunting, I'll be more than happy to disagree.

I'm not going to paste quotes everywhere to prove it but I see no attempt to scum hunt from VW yet, but Espe did ask a few things that make me think he would have followed up had he not injured himself.

This in now way puts him firmly in Town (in my mind), but leaning Town.

[jon_h61]

^ now way = no way

[jon_h61]

@jon: FYR these are the two posts that makes me (and i believe also others) to believe that your thinking I'm "fishy" has something to do with my language. I'm buying your reasoning of thought process for now. Although you still haven't explain why you thought I was "fishy" or leaning scum.

Honestly, I quick read the thread right before bed, I wanted to make sure I posted. I didn't have anything, but one of those niggling feelings. If you've played Mafia much I'm sure you know what I mean, and wanted to see a response.

Lots of time scum will come back with a fierce attack over small things like that (trying to appear righteously indignant). So far you don't seem scum to me.

I'm still struggling on whether they're just being newbie overreactive coz it seems very weird for scum to so openly going aginst each other in so early a stage.

A good example of this would be Majiffy and CooLDoG in Mini 1428, so don't completely rule out anything.

btw, Dritan has gone missing.

QFT

[jon_h61]

@ Victor "Responding to responses" is part of scum hunting, and also the polite thing to do. If people ask for clarification, I'd be remiss in my responsibilities as Town if I just left them confused, plus their responses can add to or change a read. It might be a red flag if that's all someone does.


Remember scum want to appear Town. Look at questions and responses, and try to determine if they're scum hunting or Town tearing down.

[jon_h61]

@ Void No, it's not and I'll tell you why. My son several months ago ( I'm not going to reveal his name, if he wants to tell you about it, he will) pulled off this game where he did that " I don't know what's going on" act. He made it to LYLO, and even then it dragged out because they fell for his act. They did lynch him in the end.

Long story short, give us more. Do it in a bullet point for each player. Even if you just put Null, Town, or Scum. But give us more than that last post.

[jon_h61]

@jon:

ok.
I'll check out the game if i have time.

It's a good read. I enjoyed the flavor. I threw the game winning hammer that game. By the way, Majiffy, one of the two bussing scums was the one I threw the hammer on. A

little

bragging

[jon_h61]

@ Espe Hope your feeling better. I know everyone's glad to have you back in Town.

For now.

[jon_h61]

^ That reminds me, I'm going to Sis-in-law's house tomorrow for eats and cards. I might not post before Sunday, but if I get the chance I might pop in.

@ Mod V/LA through Sunday night.

[jon_h61]

The only ones who are looking like they are town are scum hunting. It doesn't mean your actually town though. You could very well be very good at pretending to be town. Also, what makes you believe Dritan is scum?

@Void It doesn't exactly help when you say you normally lurk and have nothing to back it up on.

I just lost a game to Titus (who fooled me into thinking she was Town) so don't rule anything out, instead try to discern the reasons behind what people say.

@ Void Why do you sign up for Mafia games if you're just going to sit around with a "woe is me" attitude. I really want you to answer this, it's not rhetorical.

@ Dristan What about "trying to persuade the others to lynch someone in day 1 is damn scummy" is scummy? When I decide on my lynch subject, I'm going to ride it all the way trying to get as many people to vote with me as possible, hoping the Day ends in my suspect lynched.



We'll be leaving for home a little later, I should be around about six-ish hours from now.

[jon_h61]

ebwop

I mean convincing through facts that someone is scum it is ok but persuading the others to vote someone just because your gut says so it is either dumb or scum . choose one

Then you explain a better way to get a consensus on a lynch and I'll consider it. Waiting for a cop clear isn't even a fact unless the cop dies. I think "gut" plays an important part in a game like Mafia.

I only spelt your name wrong once!

[jon_h61]

@ Void I think you're scum who thinks all you have to do is play these "I'm no good" games and it'll keep votes off you. You've proven you can express yourself when you want to, so I'm going to believe you don't want to.

I'd really like to hear from Espe and Edos. I realize Edos has been V/LA.

Welcome to our friendly little Town SafetyDance. A fresh perspective is always welcome.

VOTE: Voidwalker

Other votes are welcome.

I'll read through tomorrow and do a full catch up then.

[jon_h61]

As said these games are off site and the site that I played them on deletes old threads, sorry. Also the "defeatist" attitude shows that I don't know how to defend/explain my self and the reason for my lurking playstyle.

What's the name of the site?

[jon_h61]

Hey all! I've read up.

Ask me any question.

Since you're read up, can we ask for a brief synopsis of the game from you? Maybe even a top two of your scumspects?

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck?

[jon_h61]

@ Espe I respectfully disagree. When has it become OK to use "I have a defeatist attitude" (paraphrase) as a logical defense in Mafia. Even in Road to Rome games? Not only is he not trying, he's making it his armor against votes.

I really don't like this, especially coming from our IC. I'd think that since this

is

a teaching game, you'd attempt to show him how to better himself at scum hunting, rather than just dismissing his attitude as Newb behavior. Since you are implying he's Town, who are your scum reads? I think you're fast tracking yourself into one of mine. Please explain better why you think Void is Town or I'm switching my vote over to you.

And Espe's number 1 tip. Using a tell to call someone scum is all well and good except that everyone drops them, finding out the mentality and motivation behind it that shows the real scum.

You don't seem to be doing this yet, the only person you've hinted at

maybe

being scum is Edos. I've been patient with you because of the injury you sustained, but that time's passed.

I know people are different, but my first game I came in hopping on every little thing I even imagined was scummy. I have played with a ten year old who played in a

similar

way, (I don't think Void's a ten year old) but when pressured he eventually started trying. It wasn't enough to keep him from being lynched.

[jon_h61]

Dritan replaces callieanne189 who appears to have abandoned the site. As soon as he shows up it will be

Day One, with five votes needed to lynch

.

/confirm

Dritan confirmed Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:36 am. We should have a few more days to make a decision.

We need to be heading toward some kind of consensus.

Still waiting on Edos and Safety to give their two cents worth.

At this time it's hard to speculate exactly who is going to be that safe lynch. The days ends today if I'm not mistaken. Also i don't know but leaving just before a day ends just feels suspicious to me. It could be nothing but it's sparked my intrigue

I'm leaning Town on Yuriko ATM.

[jon_h61]

post prod dodge

Later

[jon_h61]

Welcome to our replacements, I'm happy you were able to join us.

Why is Void not lynched?

Victor is scummy for tunneling Dritan, but since Dritan got replaced that moved him back to null? How's that work? If he's null, why vote him and not someone else?

@ Void I'll ask again, what's the name of the site that deletes finished games where you used to play? Do you usually get lynched early, or do you end up in LYLO more often?

Apologies to the Mod and everyone else.

I didn't realize I'd gone so long without posting. I was waiting for Edos to come back from V/LA. I was interested in his take on Void and Espe. My post prod dodge was supposed to be an acknowledgement of the prod, with me coming back after the movie we were watching was over, but the best laid plans of mice and men...

I'd almost be willing to go out on a limb and say that's our scum team, but we can only lynch one a day. So I'll focus my attention on Void at this time. If those who think Void is Town could maybe give a paragraph on why they don't feel he's a good lynch, it'd be great. We need to be winding his thing up and getting in agreement on who's the best Lynch for Day 1.

I'll read back through the recent posts and have questions/comments later today.

[jon_h61]

I can see that most people suspect me, but I could somewhat be seen as newb town, but I also can't because I've played lots of mafia.

That's just it, you're telling us you

could be

seen as newb Town. If you've played lots of Mafia, then you know you're acting in an anti-Town way.

@ Everyone I think Void is scum. Espe says he thinks Void is Town because he sounds genuine. I wouldn't want to be in LYLO with Void, he

would

be the type of player scum would want though. He doesn't defend himself, or scum hunt, so he'd be easier to mislynch.

The way I see it, Town benefits from his lynch either way, and

if

he flips scum I'm having a heart to heart with Espe tomorrow.

[jon_h61]

The only two I'd like to see lynched Today is Void and Espe. I hate calling it a Policy Lynch, but basically Void's added the least to Town. If you think someone else should hang, now's the time to speak up.

If someone think's that Espe's not a good choice, then tell me what he's said to make you think he's Town? He's stayed away from calling anyone scum. I Town hunt a lot too, scum will do it too.

I got burned by Titus in my last finished game though. I'd Town read her from the beginning. The game had it's moments.

[jon_h61]

@ Void If you're really Town, go back over the game and see who of the people voting you looks the worst.

If you are Town, then I'll almost guarantee scum is already voting you.

What makes you look like our best chance of hitting scum

is

your defeatist attitude. I'm having a hard time believing it's real. You express yourself well enough. Even if you're not positive someone's scum (if you're Town) surely one of us pings you just a little bit. It's getting late in the day to be switching wagons, but I want to give you every chance to defend yourself. At least help Town by doing something beside saying how bad you are at the game.

Have you used the ISO function to read individual players' posts?

Do you have any thoughts on our replacements?

I worry about sounding scummy because I don't want to be lynched day one another ****ing time

Don't worry, be happy.

If I were you I'd read up on the wiki, read some MD, and most of all read a few finished games. But I'm still betting this is an act.

[jon_h61]

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck?

@jon:

Is this some kind of English joke? I can't understand it.

Why do you care so much about the site that void said he had played in? He already said that the games were deleted already and it's clear he didn't want to answer.

I'd almost be willing to go out on a limb and say that's our scum team, but we can only lynch one a day. So I'll focus my attention on Void at this time.

Do you mean void and edos?

For some reason I thought you meant edos when I read this.
Why suddenly think espe is scum? you said you thought he was town at least three times. I don't get your logic.

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck?

As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

An old tongue twister.

I ve never seen a site that deletes old games. So I asked. I went there and couldn't find anything that was real close to Mafia. There were other old game threads though.

As for Espe, when I had Town read him was from before he hurt himself. After he came back I quickly told him I didn't like his posting. I still haven't seen anything that makes me think he has a Town PM. I especially don't like the

way

he is Town reading, but not scum hunting. If he's around in later Days, I'll be speaking with more.

pedit @ Void Stick around Road to Rome for awhile and I'll guarantee you won't always be lynched Day 1. And I hope you do. I still think you have a scum PM this time though.

[jon_h61]

@espe:

And why are you always

speculating

(lurking on) us?

I have no idea why I used that word. I thought it meant [watching from the side].

Spectating - verb (used without object), spectated, spectating. to participate as a spectator , as at a Mafia game.

spec·u·late [ spékyə làyt ] conjecture: to form a conjecture on the basis of incomplete facts or information, as in a Mafia game.

You were close, I speculate that Espe is spectating, he's actively lurking, not doing anything to help Town. He's hoping we (Town) will find ourselves suspicious enough to let him slide through the days.

With deadline looming we need less spectating and more involvement

[jon_h61]

@Jon - At this point why are you so focused on finding Void's old games. If he says their deleted then they are probably deleted - I can't see scum having much reason to continue lying about them at this point.

How am I the one focused on it? I'm only answering questions pertaining to my original question.

Though curiously, I never heard of such a thing before. A web site that deletes old threads.

Anyway, I'm glad to welcome Void and all newcomers. I hope to play many more games with you(them).

[jon_h61]

What's scummy about meta?

[jon_h61]

@ Espe I just went meta diving. I call bullsh#t.

This is so far off your meta it has to be scum. Falling on your hip can't account for this change, head maybe.

If you can show me where you replaced in and your play was similar, I'll take it back.

What I think happened, you were exited about being IC for the first time. Then you got your role PM.
It said scum, and your sails deflated. You'd wanted to be Town.
You thought it'd be safer to Town hunt vaguely, but it got you caught.

Of course this is just one interpretation and is not verifiable at this time.

[jon_h61]

In regards to jon, he gives off this vibe as being a super slick character, and not in a good way. Do you understand what I mean by this? Specifically, I do not like his arguments in 27 (hating on a player for implying he's town? Huh? Wouldn't everyone, regardless of alignment, "imply" they were town?), I do not like 132 and 144 for being too... overthinking. I get a very insincere vibe from him. Like this is a player that is going through the motions of a townie rather than being a townie.

Never, ever without a flip, not have suspicions of others. If I start going screwy, or if what I'm doing looks scummy let Town know about it. If you're sincere in your belief Town will hopefully pick up on it and give you good feedback.

I know my last finished game I got hoodwinked good.

My goal this game is to hunt down scum, no other hidden agenda. So hopefully it'll be hard for scum to Mis-lynch me.


In response to the above posted - My post 27 was mostly a joke post, with a kernel of suspicion. Even Espe caught the humor of it. But it did help me to start to develop my read of Victor.

132 I was trying to be clear in what I meant. What devious thing could I have been planning.

144 To me it's a big deal. You should never reveal your role until someone is ready to throw the lynching vote.
So many times I can't even begin to count, wagons dissipate when at L-1. If you claim before then you're just giving scum information to use against Town. So you'll never hear me claim until someone is holding the hammer and is threatening to use it. Victor asked for the claim while unvoting. I grilled him so long about it because I wanted to try and fix a good read on him through it. Read back over that part of the game, see how it played out. I felt I got a pretty good Town read out of it.

[jon_h61]

As for voting Drone that night, I felt like it. Votes aren't doing any good if you don't use them. Besides, I have more.

[jon_h61]

@ HITD Since you're unwilling to lynch Void, would you think you'd be able to get behind an Espe lynch. We have less than a day to decide.

If you want to hold me responsible for a lynch, I'd rather it be Espe.

But please, what makes you convinced Void would flip Town anyway.

[jon_h61]

I don't have a clue. You just pushed on him because of an attitude he had to me. Not because of what he had said or was I reading it wrong?

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that you think Espe is Town and I've been pushing a bad case on him?

Please elaborate on what I'm saying that you think is wrong about Espe, and what makes you think that Espe and Void are Town.

[jon_h61]

I'll let Espe answer the question since it was him that was asked, but if you hear a confusing term, you can search for it in the Wiki. You'll usually find it there.

[jon_h61]

@ Void I hope to see you around in Rome in other games. If this isn't an act, you just need to find your own style. One thing I'd suggest is skipping the part where you say how bad you are. The best Mafia hunters are just a little over fifty percent as Town. All of us (Town) are just making educated guesses anyway. Don't be afraid to ask questions, we don't bite. Much.

@ Matti What first put me on Void was how similar his play was to how my son played in a game here in Rome. He made it all the way to LYLO.

When I pressed him on it, he kept using how bad he was as an excuse. After being pressured by others he's started to look like he's putting in more effort.

At this late hour, the only other slot I'd want to lynch is Espe. I might get to that meta diving on Espe Night 1 if he's still around.

[jon_h61]

I don't like it when anyone for any reason tries to undercut their vote. I tolerate and sometimes participate in RVS, but that's the only time I would willingly overlook it. Demeaning the seriousness of a vote is not something town wants to do. When someone says they voted someone because they knew that person would be lynched, that rings all sorts of alarm bells in my head. That's someone that is comfortable with being equivocal.

This is more a MD topic, I don't feel the same way. I'm not going to ever, ever know if someone's clear, except with a flip. I'm never absolutely sure of anything, and I think it's better to let Town know how I feel.

But when I get a good strong feeling you're scum, I'll push that lynch as hard as I can. That's my playstyle.

Reading back over this, "When someone says they voted someone because they knew that person would be lynched". shouldn't that be "wouldn't be lynched"? I

think

you're talking about where I voted Drone?

I voted Drone late one night close to deadline. The next day was an all day deal with the doc. Conversation was going good, but Dritan was at L-1. I switched my vote to Drone so Dritan wouldn't be lynched yet.

Show me quotes where I'm being confusing on purpose. Is there anyone else not satisfied with my answers?

[jon_h61]

@ Void Will you still give us your best guesses who's scum when asked? Will you at least vote once every Day phase? A post every day or two? Promise to shout out if you see something scummy? Bring donuts every morning?

Is so, you're in!

[jon_h61]

@yuriko: Yes, I would keep playing like this if I survived, it's my play-style.

This quote was supposed to be above my post

[jon_h61]

I don't have a clue. You just pushed on him because of an attitude he had to me. Not because of what he had said or was I reading it wrong

Ok I'm thick sometimes. Yes it's primarily playstyle. You have to use what you know to catch scum. I pushed on him asking questions I hoped would help me better see his alignment. He's looking better, but I'm conflicted enough to still be willing to lynch him.

There are others I'd rather lynch right now, but only Espe is even close.

Matti asked why Im so suspicious of HITD. I don't think he's high enough on my scum list that I'd push for his lynch until several other slots were gone. I'm not ignoring him either. Reads can and do turn on a dime, at least if you want to win.

[jon_h61]

@ Void Would you be willing to vote Espe? We need to be wrapping up soon, but even if we don't it's not a NL.

My last post, then I'll turn over the floor.

Two things I'm not liking about RC's posting, I get the feeling he's trying to convince me I'm scum. The way he says Town has to act in certain ways or their scummy. This could be new Town or someone trying to write posts that change things around to make them appear what they're not. Something to watch in later days.

ninja'd

[jon_h61]

@ Yuriko Happy Scumday!

I almost got lynched once a long time ago because I told a scum read "I hate to say this, but..."

Some scum tells are made up on the spot, I think.

[jon_h61]

Well, Matti I won't be able to do a very convincing post that will vote Jon for anyone. I just think that of the people who voted for Void, Jon was the one who pushed the hardest on him and everything else just fell into place with Yuri doing the hammer which I think she did because the deadline was nearing after being extended another 24 hours.

What I'm going to do is go back and look at everyone who had interactions with Void (and those who avoided him too) and look for disingenuous posts. I'm also going to look at voting records and see if there are discrepancies. It doesn't always help, but I'm going to look over RC's posts and see if there's a reason scum picked him for the NK.

I'm probably not doing any of it today though.

@ HITD I pushed him hard, but I pushed him trying to get a read on him. I poked and prodded a lot of people. What about my conversations with Void came off as scummy, or anyone else I interacted with? Who do you see as my scum partner?



-----------off topic
Yesterday was my birthday, but today and tomorrow are the real celebration. We're having steaks (T-bones and KC strips) lots of goodies including broccoli salad, potato salad, corn salad, Strawberry and Lime Margaritas, Jell-O shots, and Bud Light. Oh yeah, and cake!!! If you're in the neighborhood (CST), come on by!

I don't know how much I'll be checking in the next two days so...

@ Mod V/LA through Sunday night

[jon_h61]

We unexpectedly went to my Dad's yesterday and didn't get home until 1 AM. I haven't had time to devote to this thread until today. I'll be around all day, and you can expect game related posts as I get read up.

We now know we are either in column A or row 1. Scum have either a Role blocker or goon. The RB is useless now that our JK has flipped. It's going to be an all scum hunting game, instead of relying on Powers.

I'm wanting to hear more from HighShroomish, mind if I call you Shrooms?

[jon_h61]

@ Void If you're really Town, go back over the game and see who of the people voting you looks the worst. If you are Town, then I'll almost guarantee scum is already voting you.

Which means that either you, Chitmap, Victor, or RC are scum. Also, I have not used the ISO function.

Of the people voting for me:Jon_h61: Town, he has been leading the town the most, not really getting a scumread on.
VictorDeAngelo:He was scummy at first,but now he seems town, don't know for sure.
Chitmap: Hasn't made a lot of posts, mostly null.
RC: Most definitely Town.

The scummiest person on my wagon is Victor for what he did against Dritan, but with all of these replacements we're just about back to where we were in the beginning, I don't know about chitmap though.

Chitmap jumped on with the fourth vote, I have reasons I'm not willing to share ATM to believe Victor's Town. If it becomes an issue later, I'll share then.

I was so sure dritan was scum, but chitmap looks very town to me.

What made you think chitmap was "very town"?

@ HS We need a post from you detailing your reads and who you're willing to vote. You're what, the third person in this slot? This alone gives the slot a slight scum lean to me. Dritan left while under pressure, chitmap mainly echoed topics already brought up, so you have an uphill battle to redeem the slot. If you're Town I'm confidant you'll be able to do it.

It's hard to say whether or not void is scum. I've seen both sides of being this. Which is why I can't say for sure whether or no he is being serious about being a defeatist or not. I've done this whole defeatist thing when I was scum and I've gotten people to unvote for me. I've done it as a townie and didn't help much but being a burden.

I refuse to hammer on him. I still believe that Victor is Scum. That is my two cents on this situation. He might not be good at spotting Scum. I suck at trying to decipher a person's post and psychoanalyze every damn word they say. I take what is blatantly in front of me. You take a person who played defeated style and you still push for his lynch even though he is still playing this game unlike the ones who got in this game and got replaced. The fact that every person in this game refuses to look at what is clearly in front of you a person who basically screamed scum with that one sentence he stated plus the vote/unvote thing he did.I FOS every single person on Void, especially Jon if he comes up Town. You better Pray he is Scum.

In between these two posts you gave your reasons for not voting anyone but Victor 300. If you were so sure Victor was scum, why were you trying to push a lynch on me? Post 313 sounds a lot like White Knighting. That's when scum defend Town to get Town cred after the flip.

Can you lead me through your thought processes during this time period?

I am placing my vote

solely

on the fact that Void was a townie and pushed him as the lynch. I said he was going to have a huge FOS on him before the lynch and I am holding that word, but I myself will place the vote on him for that reason. I still think Victor is scum so I'm FOS'ing Victor

This post is driving me crazy. I can see it from a scum point of view, or a wavering Town POV. What did you think of my response, and did you do as I requested?

Void took a while to actually gain impetus to eventually get to lynch, with that in mind I think that there was at least one scum on the wagon. jon has looked pretty good to me so far so Victor and chitmap are where I'll be looking to begin with.

In this case though I'm of the opinion that a scum was an pusher of the Void lynch just because of the stall it had. I haven't looked yet to see if anyone had no reasoning for being on him, but that's what I'll be searching for now that I've identified some suspects.

Have you went over things yet? What do you think of the way chitmap joined the wagon?

[jon_h61]

@Jon

1

how can you even say that I am so sure that Victor is scum.

2

I am reading him as scum, I have no evidence on you or Victor otherwise I would have not voted you or would not have FOS'd Victor.

3

Also, you can call it white knighting or anything you want.

4

If he was scum I knew I was going to die.

5

But, he went town and if I was scum, why would I refuse to do a kill on someone who is not scum?

6

I'm sure everyone who is scum is on that vote.

7

If dying helps the town, so be it. I'm not a defeatist but an opportunist. I don't mind sacrificing myself if it makes the town stronger.

8

Obviously I think Victor is your scum partner.

9

Don't know why I need to make that statement as it was pushed Day One.

10

These are for the above quotes: You pushed on Void then you went on to say if I won't vote him then can I vote Espe, which I also, did not.

11

Then you asked Void who you wanted dead if he would be willing to vote Espe.

12

You were looking to control votes to your liking which is not townie moves, but an ulterior motive like scum would have, imo.

Please do me and everyone else a favor, instead of posting all of the quotes, cut out the parts that are pertinent instead of using the whole quote. It'll help insure people read and understand what you're trying to convey. Or you could link to the posts by using the post button (insert the post number between the brackets) like this [ post]399[/post ]. The added spaces inside the brackets need to be removed. They're just there so you can see the formatting. 399

1

Sounds like a question, but I'm guessing it's a rhetorical question. Did I ever say you were sure Victor was scum?

2

You have no evidence I'm scum (I'll let Victor take care of himself, or would that be bussing?) otherwise you wouldn't have voted me? Please reword this, I don't understand what you're getting at.

3

From where I'm sitting it looks very much like White Knighting. You went from null to threatening everyone on the wagon just as soon as it looked inevitable. It happens often enough it gets it's own wiki entry.

4

Why do you say that? For the White Knighting? I doubt it, I've lynched Townies, and pointed out crappie cases many times and not been under much suspicion the next Day. But if it adds together with other things that are off maybe you'd have been likely lynched.

5

For Town Cred, duh.

6

I'm not, but please, if you're Town scum hunt anywhere you can.

7

This is an old saw I've heard and used. Town and scum say this all the time.

8

Obviously, you're wrong.

9

I don't know what you're talking about. What statement pushed on Day 1?

10

Yes I did. You make yourself sound so noble for not doing this. So since Victor and I are scum, everyone else is Town, right?

11

Yes I did. I'd do it again. If you want to call it a scum tell, so be it. You have to admit, there at the end Void was acting better. Besides until we saw the flip no one (Town) knew if he was scum or not.

12

Yes, I was looking to swing the lynch the way I wanted it to go. I actually think it's funny you're calling it a scum tell. If I was setting around letting the Day go by, not trying to lynch my top scum read, then I'm acting like a Townie? How's that work?

I was leaning Town on you, and still may be. The last time I read you, I did it with Victors posts mixed in. I can tell from your tone you're already in tunnel mode though. If you're Town, I'll tell you now, tunneling won't be productive for us(Town).


For some reason my quotes aren't holding their original formatting, and coming out all pushed together. It just started recently and I've no idea why. It's not me messing with other peoples' posts for whatever nefarious reasons they might dream up.

[jon_h61]

Chitmap jumped on with the fourth vote, I have reasons I'm not willing to share ATM to believe Victor's Town. If it becomes an issue later, I'll share then.

I'm town reading you so hard and you go and say this. I appreciate you have your reasons for not wanting to share - but you do see how this looks, right? At least to me this is far and away the scummiest thing you've done. Is there any explanation you've got short of actually giving your reasons?

It's a Town tell. I don't like sharing Town tells. They become useless when scum know what I consider to be Town tells. That's why I don't really want to share it ATM, but put it out there I would, when I decided it was better for Town to know it. Besides, it might drive scum crazy wondering what it is.

It only stays a Town tell if the person doing it is unaware of it. It by no means gives Victor a free ride though.

[jon_h61]

jon_h61 SE - Hasn't done anything overtly scummy, but then, he wouldn't. The whole time I was reading my gut was shouting about him too. But my gut has been wrong before. I'm reserving judgement on him til I can read him real-time.

How would you know I wouldn't do something scummy? I've only been scum twice, both times as replacements, and lost both times. The first time I survived until the Day before LYLO, the second I didn't last a day (real time). But thank you for the compliment? If being accused of being a good liar

is

a compliment.

It's OK you're suspicious of me, if you weren't I'd be even more suspicious of your slot. Espe's play was strange this time around. His only giving Town reads isn't something I've ever seen a Townie do before. If he came back and continued to play this way, I'd be pushing hard for his lynch. I'll say that you're experienced enough with the game that I'll be watching you closely too.

Why do you say "and I really don't want it to be jon?"? This sounds like the beginning of a push to me. Are you saying I'm too Townie to be Town?

Can you elaborate on Victor's cog dis?

I like Shroomy (sorry HS, I think this nickname's going to stick.) as Town too. Still unsure of Matti. What did Safety do that gave you this firm Town read?

If Yuriko "Looks Town to me, based on pretty much every single one of her posts being absolutely wonderful.", why is she a weaker Town read?

HITD is getting a slight scum read from me ATM, mainly because he's went into defense mode. But he did try to push his case on me, and even though it was wrong. On the flip side I've been unsure of reads plenty of times to see Town play there too.

I keep PoEing it down to jon/{HITD, Victor} and I really don't want it to be jon? I don't know.

If you think I'm the lynchpin here, why say you really don't want it to be me??? It doesn't sound much like you're reserving judgement to me.

[jon_h61]

@Jon - What is your opinion on this shift of vote?

I'm of two opinions here. I can see it as scum backing off, or as a Townie second guessing himself.

My first thought was it was scum that tried a push, didn't get any traction, then backed off. But I still feel there's a chance that he's just unsure of himself.

I wish I had a better read on him, but right now, he goes in the null pile.



I just reread HITD's ISO and I'm scared that this Victor vs. HITD thing is Town on Town. Today I don't want to vote HITD, unless he does something obviously scummy.

One last thought, I want to hear more from goodmorning. I haven't cared for the slot most of the game and you're saying I'm your top scum read. Please elaborate on that more. These things can help Town after the person being discussed flips. To be a little clearer, reads and opinions and how the player was pushed can be useful to the Town players if the slot being pushed dies, whether by NK or lynch.

I don't like the "too Townie to be Town" gm starts with.

Goodmorning is my main suspect right now. Between Espe's play and the opening post of hers, they add up to a scum read for me.
VOTE: goodmorning

[jon_h61]

Last post and I promise to shut up for a while. I apologize to the Mod and players for being prodded. I didn't realize it had been so long since I last posted. I guess I got wrapped up reading another thread yesterday. I replaced into another thread earlier thinking two was easy to keep up with, why not three? From this point forward only two games at a time for me.

@ gm You said you believed Dritan's VT claim, what did you think of HITD's VT claim?

[jon_h61]

What was your reasoning of re-reading our argument and determining to be a possible town vs. town scenario?

I reread you two because I'm looking for scum. The same reason I'm metaing gm right now. The one I'm reading right now even has Espe in it, as an added bonus. I thought it might be TvT because it looks that way to me, but if you meta me, you'll see my reads can turn on a dime. Events change the way I see things frequently, it hasn't worked out too bad for me. I'm still around the fifty percent mark, I think, though recently I have been fooled more than I'd like.

In reality I guess you can rid of the townie that is nothing spectacular. But, it was just a pretty dumb way of putting it in text when there was no pressure to lynch him at that time.

Yeah, I kinda agree, his wording could have been better. What initially put me off was the asking for a claim when Dritan wasn't at L-1, or holding the hammer. But Dritan's wagon did dissipate, and now we have "The Fabolous and Wonderful Lord of Shroomtopia." Just because I'm Town reading Victor, I don't expect others to until they're convinced, so keeping pressure on him is only a good thing. Vice versa too.

I'm not afraid of death in the game as eventually the town will overcome the scum and win.

I love your optimism, and vote of confidence for us(Town)!

Don't worry too much about my shifts in reads, unless you're scum. I'll do my best to explain anything I do, and it gets us the added bonus of more interactions to go back over while we are scum hunting. I rarely defend myself from lynches, but I will try to clear up any misconceptions.

[jon_h61]

@jon: Why ask me questions if you weren't in any way interested in the answers, or in answering the questions I put to you in return?

I was trying to get a post in to all my games before going to bed. Still didn't make my goal. I promise I won't neglect you, and if I miss something, point it out and I'll be happy to go back, read it, and respond.

I'm responding to this first because I went to the last post. I think it's easier than going to the top of the page and scrolling down. I'll answer your questions, and maybe have a few for you after breakfast. God willing and the creeks don't rise.

[jon_h61]

Really?

No, I've never seen anyone only give Town reads, especially the way Espe did. Not even newbies, excluding those who flake after a few days. I did play with a ten year old(?) that started out saying everyone was Town, but when he got pressured on it, he picked out a player or two he thought was scummy. Espe never did, and I called him on it, but he still refused. In the game I read with you and him in it (you were scum), he didn't play that way. Mini 1520. So I'll stand on that. No, I've never seen someone play the way Espe was. Even his Town reads were vague.

Wasn't cog-dis. Was contradictions. HITD brought them up about a zillion times.

Anything other than the "believing Dritan's claim"? If I thought someone was scum, a pre-hammer claim of VT wouldn't make me suddenly believe they were Town. Though what I've seen, claiming VT gets you strung up more often than claiming a PR. For

some

reason.

If only that was what I said.

No, you didn't say that, but I felt you were implying that. If I should have come to a different conclusion from your post, I don't know what it was. It sure looked you were seeding doubt, in preparation of pushing a wagon.

Wow I got it done before breakfast! But I forgot to post it.


My wife(Deb) says that it's too nice outside and she's complaining "I'm bored". I agree and for harmony's sake, I'm going to take her fishing! If we play in the future, you'll find most of my absences during nice weather have something to do with the great outdoors. I'll be back later tonight. I'd suggest everyone get out and enjoy this great day outdoors. That is if it's as nice where you're at as it is here.

Did everyone else realize it was Marathon weekend on Mafiascum? I guess since I go straight to my bookmarks I missed the announcements. That makes me sad.

Oh yeah, thanks and welcome gm, for replacing in and joining us!

[jon_h61]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewforum.php?f=24 is where to go but it's ending today.

The play faster games there, but I always seem to miss it. Next time...

Be back later.

[jon_h61]

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Yes.

So what does me speculating about the role setup do to make me scummy? In Row 1 scum have a Goon, in Column A scum get a Role Blocker. There's

nothing

for scum to role block. This is a straw man at it's finest.

I suggest to everyone, especially Town to keep a sharp eye on all of goodmorning's scum hunting from now on. I'll get to more later. I'm grilling out and I don't want to burn our food!

VOTE: goodmorning

[jon_h61]

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Yes.

So what does me speculating about the role setup do to make me scummy? In Row 1 scum have a Goon, in Column A scum get a Role Blocker. There's

nothing

for scum to role block. This is a straw man at it's finest.

I suggest everyone keep a sharp eye on all of goodmorning's scum hunting from now on. I'll get to more later. I'm grilling out and I don't want to burn our food!

VOTE: goodmorning

[jon_h61]

1. The percentages are merely there to exaggerate my point: I am certain of Matti and very nearly so of Shroomy at this point.2. I have towncleared two players. What would my motivation be for doing this as Scum?

I can think of a couple. To get Town on your side, or maybe to get Town to think scum are Town. I'm sticking with gm as scum unless something drastic happens.

That double post was weird. I already know scum's going to use it against me. I say let them. Like I said earlier, if and when I die, Town, please look back over who accused me, and of what.

I typed out the post quickly to get back to the grill. Hit submit, saw the post in the preview window. I thought I must have hit preview accidentally, and read that line. I didn't like the way that looked so I changed it.

Like HITD said earlier, I'm not scared of death. I hope that that weird blip works into Town's favor.

[jon_h61]

I couldn't sleep, and was thinking of this game. Back when I was pressuring Void and Espe was vaguely Town reading somebody, I called him out for it. Even going so far as to look over a few of his past games. Notice his responses to me. He never once questioned why I was calling him out, but tried to explain why he was doing it like he was talking to Town. Because he knew he was talking to Town. This on top of the way he was doing his Town reading, in a very vague, and he probably hoped, safe way. It sure looked like he was doing his best not to make enemies.

Then gm, who has a different play style took over the slot. She starts off saying something close to what RC said, taking it a step farther. She warns everyone that she feels I'm a competent player. She says she hopes it's not me, and that she's reserving judgement, but immediately starts her push on me.

1

As far as only giving townreads: it's a strategy I've seen used occasionally insofar as it limits Scum's knowledge.

2

These sorts of things particularly happen with ICs in newbie games (I've gone further and held back all but one or two reads a time or two) because the position bestows some extra attention.

3

And, as ICs typically expect to die, it can later (postmortem) be somewhat effective at directing lynches/nightkills.

4

Why do you think Espe would be more likely not to share scumreads as Scum than as Town?

5

Also, this was apparently his first IC game. I'm not massively surprised his play was as it was, particularly given the replace-out.

1. First, how does not having scum reads limit scum's knowledge help Town in the first place? By making scum not think you suspect them, so the IC can live longer? Survival isn't what the IC, or anybody, should be going for. Finding, and lynching scum is what should be taking place. When you limit scum's info, as you say. you've helped keep Town without info not just on the other players, but on yourself too. Scum want to do that.

2. It gets you attention, but what was he using that attention for? Espe never did anything, his only motive I could see is trying to staying alive.

3. If you don't give reads, then how is everyone else supposed to know who you suspected? Especially if you thought you were likely to die. You might be right that it'd help direct NKs, but I'm not sure how that'd work, except maybe it'd make scum think you were safe to keep around, and make them go after a bigger threat.

4. He was trying not to draw attention to himself by calling Town scum, and didn't want to bus what he considered a weaker partner? He may have had other reasons, but that's my guess.

5. Even with this being his first time as an IC, I don't think that's enough reason for this unrealistic shift in his play. No, I'm pretty confidant this slot is scum.

[jon_h61]

All roles are always random. For everyone.

[jon_h61]

@ HITD I don't remember enough about the situation ATM to have an opinion. I'll look into it when I get time, I promise.

It's weird, it appears he's going after Matti like he thinks they're scum, but has vote parked on you. I'd actually forgotten he was voting you. Being vague can sometimes trip up scum, and maybe that was what he's attempting to do. I think I had him as Town from his interactions with Matti, but after rereading his ISO, I have to put him back to Nullish. There's only two scum though, and today I'm more interested in gm.

I'd hope he'd explain what he was going for, and if he got it.

[jon_h61]

I know I'm probably the lynch today. I'm OK with that. But if I go today, jon needs to go tomorrow. No talking himself out of it.

OK, deal. I have a quick question for you, if I'm scum, who's my partner? Speaking of AtE... You realize if we're both Town it's game over.

This part of your post was less fine. You spoke positively as though there was a RB in the setup and you knew it.

Blatant lie. The only thing I know positively is my Role PM.

So I would limit my lynch options and would choose to clear Matti, a somewhat inactive slot that I could probably push pretty easily, and Shroomy, who seems suspicious of people calling him Town? If I was Scum I'd probably have cleared Yuriko, as it's fairly obvious she's not going to be lynched.

You wouldn't have to worry about that until much later in the game. Yuriko would have been harder to sell that you were reading them 98% or 100% is my guess.

It's quite possible he thought of it as a theory question and attempted to explain it to help the newbs. I don't know, I wasn't there.

Town, go back and read the part we're talking about and see if you think this is even a possibility. I called him out pretty forcefully for Espe to think I was asking a theory question.

I've not seen him care about making enemies as Scum.

I don't know how he played scum, but I'll check it out, who knows, maybe someday I'll play with him again. The meta might be useful.

I don't know what you're referencing, but obviously I need to go back and read that slot again.

Personally I felt he might have been a good addition to Town if He hadn't been NKd.

Why would that be a warning? That word is weird in that sentence.

Not really, you were making me sound like a threat, like if I was scum it'd be too hard to lynch me. Similar to the Lynch the IC Policy.

Oh really?

Let's hear your version of events.

1. If the Scum are both Newbs, the IC's reads can often be a road map for the game. Survival is unnecessary.2. What is your point?3. Obviously, if you give townreads, you suspect the people you haven't townread, no?4. So you think that he instead drew attention to himself by not calling anyone Scum? That stands out far more for everyone than one person whining "boo hoo, you're reading me wrong."5. Do you have any meta of him playing this way as Scum?

1. Vague Town reads?

2. I pretty much felt the same way for the original

2.

3. Espe didn't come off that way,

at all

. It's funny you're even trying to make his play appear that way.

4. Exactly.

5. No.

Look at you keeping your options open.

If you want to call it that. It was an honest answer to a question I was asked at 6ish AM after being awake all night.

My

only

reservation is I had a player I when head to head with in my last Road to Rome game was Town. I tried to warn him it might be TvT several times, but he never relented. If I remember right he was NKd, we lost anyway.

[jon_h61]

One more point about that loss, we lost because I'd Town read Titus all the way up to right before the loss.

[jon_h61]

*sigh* I can't tell if this is a legitimate question, therefore making him town, or a newb scum getting told by a more experienced player to ask it...

The only problem with this is there's no Day talk in Road to Rome games.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Pretend I'm Town and my AtF worked itself on me. I'm Town, you're Town. Who do you see stoking the fires to get us to tear ourselves apart. Don't pretend this scenario never happens. Who beside me or you is scum? Short of that who (and why) is my scum partner?

Convince me and I promise that no matter how hard you rail against me I'll not vote you again this game. I don't care about your scum read on me, I'd have to have a partner if I was scum. Go.

As added incentive
UNVOTE:

[jon_h61]

@gm Just to let you know 473 doesn't convince me of anything. I just don't want to wall war with you right now. Unless you insist.

[jon_h61]

I know I'm probably the lynch today. I'm OK with that. But if I go today, jon needs to go tomorrow. No talking himself out of it.

I was going back through your ISO. This is more a lol thing rather than scum hunting, but, if you're lynched, I'm not supposed to let Town talk me out of suicide?

I know what you meant, but,

[jon_h61]

No self-respecting townie would ever say this.

No self respecting Townie would want to make sure they're not making a mistake? OK, I gave you your chance.

VOTE: goodmorning

My votes staying.

[jon_h61]

AtF Appeal to Fear

[jon_h61]

@ gm Not that I'm worrying about convincing you of anything, but after Open 544, where neil113 tunneled me, and me him, I always consider the TvT possibility. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case here, though. Besides, I'm tired of looking for your scum games to read.

[jon_h61]

I ISo'd out the three scums of O547 and read them this morning, and ironically I read N1477 a while back for different reasons. I might speed read it later, but after gm's throwing down the gauntlet, I doubt very seriously if I'd change my vote anyway. There seems to be this current trend I've noticed with established players where they tunnel to the detriment of Town, and can't admit they might be wrong, even if it sinks the game. I'm glad it's just a game.

I seriously doubt this is the case here though.

[jon_h61]

Oops, The Newbie game wasn't the one I thought it was. My mistake. Never read that one, or even glanced at it.

[jon_h61]

I'm going to be gone most of the day tomorrow (doctor visit), but we're running out of time. Now's the time to state any reads, comments, questions or whatever else you want brought up before deadline.

Goodmorning says she wasn't scum reading me by 428 but that's not the way things appeared to me. I've done a lot of reading of Mafia games lately and I've seen scum "Town hunting" quite a bit. There's a lot of other things I haven't liked about her rebuttals, but winning (or losing) arguments doesn't make the person's Role PM. Sometimes it's gut that finds the scum.

Once while playing with Yosarian and Tracey in N1223 after 2 DAYS of continuous tunneling of each other, I told Yosarian I felt he'd won the argument, then hammered him. This was in LYLO. My point is, please, look the posts over. Decide for yourselves what you think of both of us. Look over what was added by others, and who stayed away from the subject. There are still two slots with scum Role PMs out there.

IF we have the 1 shot bullet proof, AND it gets to use it's power we have three Days until LYLO. Without it we just have two tries to find one of the scums. Let's do our best to get it right this time. The buffer will help out tremendously.

I don't know how late it'll be when I get back home, but as soon as I do I'll check in.

[jon_h61]

@ gm In 474 I was (and still am) very skeptical that I was(am) wrong, but wanted to offer you a chance to help steer me in a different direction if you were Town. But it was more like swatting you with an olive branch that was on fire. For

that

, I apologize.

Forgot to mention N1223 was a Town win.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Then how about this, pretend I've been lynched. And pretend I was scum. Who would you be voting next, and how sure would you feel?

Now pretend I flipped Town. Who would you be voting, and how sure would you be?

[jon_h61]

If you haven't seen Town doing it then you've been reading the wrong games. notsci, especially, is well-known for townhunting being his primary strategy.

umm... I Town hunt. I do it all the time. I'm doing it this game. Town hunting isn't the issue anyway. What Espe did is not what I'm doing. This isn't my only point about the slot, and though it'd be easy to keep wall warring, that's not going to catch scum. I've said my say and I'll add to this(the subject of Town hunting)only if questioned about it.

If me and gm keep on it can easily drown out other things. Like where the other scum is. You say I'm scum, I say you are. Enough said.

Who thinks gm is Town? Why?

@ gm What should I call you? gm just doesn't strike me as what you like to be called.

[jon_h61]

I was thinking about how this (the reason why I started calling gm scum). It all boils down to her entrance. Before then I think I was leaning null-Town-ish. That's where the pivot point is for my read. That's what I'm concentrating on. ^ I know, right?

She might be Town? It might be that it is TvT. We may have squared off, looked at each other, circled around, then pounced. I want to hear everyone else's points of view. Though I know a few already.

[jon_h61]

@gm Do you remember which game we played together?

Oh, by the way. I changed doc appt., so I'll be home all day. I'll be around if Anyone wants to discuss the upcoming lynch.

[jon_h61]

494 should read "I was thinking about how this (the reason why I started calling gm scum) came about in the first place."

[jon_h61]

I just reread gm(GM) Morning?) again. The scum hunting, excluding me, is sooo sketchy and vague that all I can tell is she vaguely suspects Victor and HITD.

@ GM I know you say you don't make associative reads. independently, who do you think is scum beside me. You made a read off associative tells in the beginning, saying Victor or HITD was my partner. It looks like to me you're trying to avoid connections that'll be traced to a scum partner.

I think it's better to give Reads than to not. Holding some things back is OK too, but when reads start to be so vague they start looking scummie.

[jon_h61]

Holy shit I made it into two town reads already O.o now I'm 100% sure one of you two are scum as well. I'm not the person you put as a town read. Just sayin.

I

think

I was one of them. Who was the other?

Why no follow up?

What do you think of the wall war between me and GM?

Do you still fund Matti scummie?

Sorry for string of posts, but I've been in this thread most of three-ish hours. I'll shut up for a while.

[jon_h61]

Yukiro has been prodded again. If she must be replaced I will extend deadline over the weekend, but that's it

This

makes me sad. I know what she has going on trumps Mafia (did I just say that?) and I wish her all the best. Her slot is the one I feel most unsure about. Hopefully she'll be able to rejoin us and we can all be a happy Town again.

@ shroomy You'll let us in on this analysis of the "crap-ton of info" when? We have approximately 48 hours until deadline, and Town"ll need at least a few minutes to absorb it all. Can't you be lazy while typing it up?

Free temporary Town reads to the next three posters! Maybe just cookies.

[jon_h61]

Uh... I don't think so?Why would you try to pull together a wagon, even a deadline wagon, on a potentially valuable player that you were null-town reading?

I'm trying to get people to commit, not say "it's too late in the Day to scum hunt".
You don't have to "start a wagon" to say who you're suspicious of.

Enough said.Fine. You should expect that I might possibly attempt a coherent case on you if I find the time. Other than that, keeping this to a minimum is good by me.

I'm betting you're scum because of your cases, I'd love to see another. I can point you a couple of times where I've turned on a dime on a Town read close to the end of the game, to hammer them and win the game. But it's impossible for me to change a scum read?

Uh... I don't think so?

How was I reading your slot then? WOW, what a brain dead moment. If anything,

that's

what you should push. All these d@#$e, umm, great replacements. I'm speechless about that. Too little sleep, too much time. Sleep deprivation = the brain's deadly enemy. Believe it or not I was thinking for some reason you were someone else's replacement beside Espe.

As for HITD: I'd rather focus on you.

I'd prefer you did it in thread, where we can see the interactions.

[jon_h61]

I could mine my games and find a couple other brain farts that didn't make me scum, but I'll just say I flupped up. That one was embarrassing though!

pedit NOOO, I thought Espe was SCUM! still do

BRB 10 minutes or so

[jon_h61]

Also, what cases? I haven't made any yet.

I noticed that, and in one of my more lucid moments I think I pointed it out.

[jon_h61]

To clarify, you're saying that you had a null-Town read on someone besides Espe, and that you thought I had replaced that person?

Well, umm, yeah, I think that's what I'm saying. On a serious note, this is my third day in a row with almost no sleep. No, I'm

not

a meth freak. It's just a side effect of a medical condition, and the meds. I should shut up when I'm punch drunk, but what the hell.

[jon_h61]

Deb said to tell you that even sometimes she ignores me (she just came to bed and was reading over my shoulder for a sec), she's

not

my hydra partner. She is my partner though. She actually hates the game. Believe it. I have talked one family member into playing a few games though. She's laying facing the other way now(fact).

[jon_h61]

I told her what I'd said. She said "too much lying and killing, we get enough of it in real life". I busted up laughing. She just doesn't get it.

[jon_h61]

@jon
When I get something that will make it coherent to every one else. And even then half of it probably won't seem reasonable.

Surely you can't do worse than I've done today.

On a serious note, I'm trying to make people make stands so we can analyze them in later Days. That's one reason scums say they don't like giving reads, they don't have to be accountable for them later if they don't make them.

[jon_h61]

Oh no! Reserving judgement on Yuriko's replacement.

Another aggressive, fellow wall warrior. Hopefully, we don't end up drowning out the rest of the players in the game.

I'm sorry to see Yuriko go, but welcome neil.

[jon_h61]

I think shroomy's right. I just read Matti again in ISO. He seems to

just

be stirring the pot. It looks like he's trying to rouse suspicions for others to run with. He makes it a point to pacify the players when he calls them on his "suspicions". Matti has become a firm scum read.

Obviously

I disagree with gm on the slot.



WOW. A hail storm!!!

Matti's the only slot I'd compromise vote today.

[jon_h61]

^ A Meat World hail storm.

[jon_h61]

Neil's right in that I tunnel a lot, I can only try to lynch one scumspect a Day. Without some tunneling, you're letting your suspects off too easily. If you're too open minded you'll let scum lead you around by your nose. On the flip coin of that, I try to see where the poster is coming from, why they are saying what they are.

@ neil I'm reading your slot more Town than not ATM, so I won't even try a push on you Today. Still, I've read (at least one) some of your scum games, so think of me as having a permanent IGMEOY and we'll get along great. Something I hope you're factoring into your read of gm is how many games she has under her belt, with a few impressive scum wins to boot. I have tried seeing her from a Townie standpoint. Occasionally she'll make me doubt myself, but...

What do you think about her claiming I have pre-knowledge of if there's a RB in the game? That's one of my biggest sticking points against giving her a Town read. That seems so far out there that I can hardly believe Town her would even say that. As for her refusal to consider that players might be Town, I stick to one scum read and push it a lot of times too. My olive branch came at a time when I wasn't thinking clearly, and had a lot of confbias showing through, so if she is Town, that'd color her read on me too. I don't know, she still seems like she could be scum, I know she's got it in her to effectively pull it off.

@ Matti I don't think you've said what your experience is with Mafia, so I'll ask.

@ gm My use of the word "never" was actually a jab at your reads of Matti and shroomy.



Now that it's over, I'd like to give a nod to 4nxi3ty and his Imaginary Fights Mini1557. His flavor was great and kept everyone(mostly) involved all the way to the end.

[jon_h61]

@ shroomy You said you voted gm to see if scum would follow you onto her. Do you think she's Town, or scum?

Toeing the line between Town and scum can be a good strategy for Town, but sometimes you have to let us know how you really feel.

pedit Me and neil have history, I don't want to let it color my view of him this game.


The rest will have to wait, I have Meat World issues that demand I take care of them. I'll let everyone know when I get back. There's not much chance gm'll be lynched while I'm gone so I won't remove my vote.

[jon_h61]

@ shrooms I'll go back and read later when I get a chance. I was just asking because I was running out the door and I couldn't remember what was said. I'm at McD's grabbing a bite to eat. I'll have more time when I get home.

[jon_h61]

I agree with gm here, if scum think something's going to make them look bad, they'll avoid it. Scum want to be as Town as possible. Town don't care

as much

about appearances.

UNVOTE:

I'll decide what I want to do when I get home.

[jon_h61]

I ain't scared of no OMGUS!

@ HITD if you're Town, who do you think is making a case on you from a scum's POV?

If

you could direct an investigation tonight, who would you investigate? Would you be looking for scum or confirming a Town read?

pedit I think I know who it might be, if this flip goes the way I hope!

ppedit I hope not, but it's good you're around.

[jon_h61]

I don't know what I meant by the "I hope not", I may have been answering my wife (Deb) and wrote it into the post??? Too big a hurry I guess, putting up groceries and getting ready to grill out. lol (sheepish grin)

[jon_h61]

OH! 544. duh

[jon_h61]

Open mouth, insert keyboard.

[jon_h61]

^ The bad side of stream of consciousness posting!

You might have to take one for the team, if you're Town. I don't advocate NLs except in certain circumstances.

[jon_h61]

That's why I want as much as you're willing to give.

[jon_h61]

I promise, If you're Town, I'll grill her good. Shrooms holding back the hammer would need to be explained. But that'd be awful easy, he could just say he didn't think you were scum. We have a bit to work with tomorrow no matter the way the lynch flips.

OK here goes VOTE: HITD

gm's participation today wasn't all I'd have liked from her.

I hope you stick around Mafiascum, and I get a chance to play with you again.

[jon_h61]

IF I'm NKd, Town please question gm about what she did in the night!

Tell shrooms to reign in the scumminess, and turn over every stone, there's scum under one of them!

[jon_h61]

I have just one quick question, which of you is scum with gm? It's OK, you can tell me!

I

won't tell anyone!

[jon_h61]

@ gm If you're Town and still keep scum reading me, you're wrong. Is this something you're going to push today?

This is MYLO and is extremely important to the win.

I

can't afford to be lynched anymore.

As of the last time we spoke, I was scum reading you. Just sayin'.


If I was scum, I would have killed anyone but neil! That would have been a dance I would have never turned down!

@ neil Sorry to see ya go! Til next time!

Scum did something smart when they killed him, so that another point against gm. She probably has

some

Meta on him from just being a member of Mafiascum.

I'm interested in everyone else's top scum read.

[jon_h61]

Another thing that worries me about gm is how she didn't want to try to address anyone else as scum when she was scum reading me. I attempted to engage her in looking at others several times. I think our(gm's and mine) next conversations are going to be critical to the game.

[jon_h61]

Only in that she isn't new to the website, so there's a good chance that she read some thread in which neil was in and decided to do away with him instead of taking the chance that he'd zero in on her.

He can be a little stubborn and insistent when he thinks he right. If he thinks he smells scum, he don't let go,

[jon_h61]

I was wondering about neil's alignment because he said that he thought gm's scum hunting was good, while he was Town reading me. Turns out I was wrong too.

[jon_h61]

Yes. no voting until we reach a consensus, please. That'd be setting us up for a potential loss if the vote's on a Townie.

pedit @gm So you obviously won't consider I could be Town. Then you better be scum. The (if you lynch me) loss will be on your head. <AtE Yes, I used it, and if you're Town, you better at least consider that you might be wrong.

Keep it up if you're scum.

[jon_h61]

I brought up the NK. Big deal.

Just like you're pre-knowledge spiel.

[jon_h61]

So tunneling worries you? Bullshit. You and I both know that a solid tunnel is not particularly alignment-indicative.

I never said tunneling was alignment indicative, I tunnel all the time. Your lack of real scum hunting, and the things you decide to push are what's making you scummie in my eyes.

[jon_h61]

Why would I say this and then kill neil anyway?

WIFOM? I don't know what you're thinking.

[jon_h61]

Fine. Pretend both of us are Town for a minute. Who in the hell is Scum?

Don't even "lack of real scumhunting" me. If you want to go there things are not going to be pretty.

OK, Explain where I'm seeing things wrong.

[jon_h61]

@gm What's your thoughts on Victor?

[jon_h61]

So tunneling worries you? Bullshit. You and I both know that a solid tunnel is not particularly alignment-indicative. You're getting overexcited at the prospect of winning this game and that's making you feel like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal. You feeling like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal is what's leading to you making graspy points. And you making graspy points should lead to other people realizing that something's not right here.

Grasping points?

That's exactly what you did. You gave two vague clears, and two vague scum reads, and a full on attack on me. Sounds like pretty smart scum play to me.

[jon_h61]

@ gm If I knew for sure, or close to sure, I'd already be all over them. I'd like for everyone to put in their two cents worth so we can get in some good discussion.

Gee, that describes why someone's Town, real well.

[jon_h61]

I'm sure as hell trying to get a good read on you, then I'll decide what else to do. Sure you san say you're doing the same, but all I see is you saying " You scum!" . I don't see that you're trying to work anything out.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Can you give me a game or two that you endgamed in as Town? You've got a lot of games to have to go through just to be looking for that kind of info.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Yes, I don't really care if you won or not.

[jon_h61]

And... I'm considering everything you say, so there's that. You just seem like a broken record. Every post you try to turn around into a "scum thing".

I wouldn't mind if someone else broke up our dialogue though,

especially

your Town reads.

[jon_h61]

@ gm I'm trying to figure out if you're scum or we are imploding Town. Most of your questions come off as sarcastic questions that seem more rhetorical than questions that beg answers. At least that's the way they look to me.

pedit Thanks gm.

[jon_h61]

MYLO Mis Lynch and Lose, If we don't lynch scum

this

time, we lose.

LYLO, You have to lynch scum, because there's no spare lynches left? Like 2 Town and 2 scum or 2-1, right?

Oh, I see in MYLO, you can still No Lynch and not lose the game too. I just read the Wiki.

[jon_h61]

Maybe I'm reading too much into it because I'm annoyed.

If

you're Town, and you're scum reading me because you're annoyed at me, I ask you to take another look and see if you think I'm trying to out scum or not. The warm fuzzy feelings will come when we lynch scum.

He followed up mine. He said, basically, IDEK. Yet he expects me to have an answer to it.

You're right I didn't give out any scum reads yet, and it might have been unfair to ask for yours. I'm still working on figuring you out. Plus I'd really like the others to show up so there can be some interactions with them.

The last game I was in neil with, him and I called each other scum, all the way up until he died. We gave wall after wall why the other was scum, but we both flipped Town. I've got this nagging feeling you're Town. It's just that some of the things you're using against me seem so... that that is making me think you're scum.

[jon_h61]

@ gm If I was scum, I'd be ramming it home about how scummie you are. I hate to say it but, from where I'm sitting, that doesn't look like it'd be very hard to do at all.

We've got a lot of time, so I'm going to try to put you on the back burner for now (I'll still respond to you) and look into our quieter players.


Right now, though, I have to go do "honey dews, er, honey dos'".

[jon_h61]

After a re-reread, I'll apologize in advance if I'm wrong, sorry gm, but I think I'm convinced that gm's slot is scum.

I'll stand by that, and I'm ready to back it up with a vote. First I want to hear what everyone thinks.

I guess I'm calling for a 1v1 with gm. We have to lynch her or we lose! That's where I stand! (insert smiley crossing his fingers)

We'll see.

[jon_h61]

The truth is I think you have to die for Town to win, and I'm asking town to step up, if they think I'm right. I've lost enough to know anything can happen. Like me being wrong. I've been wrong several times lately.

Titus, neil, etc...

But I've been right too.

Everyone needs to speak up.

[jon_h61]

@ gm I can point you to a game where at the last minute, in LYLO I changed my mind, and hung scum. Forget about me, who else is scum? I want your opinion because if you're Town, who might be on the block soon, you should be trying to point me to the true scum.

pedit me too.

[jon_h61]

Yes, I agree with gm. Everyone needs to be voicing opinions, and working on getting Town consensus. I think gm's most probably scum, she says I am. We both want your input.

[jon_h61]

@ gm Strawman and AtE noted. I don't care that I contradicted myself.

3. I've stated my opinion multiple times. You, on the other hand, seem to have been taking an awful lot of posts to say an awful lot of nothing. If nobody is willing to see this, fine. I'll at least be able to take it as a teaching opportunity.

You've stated your opinion, yes, but the things you're using to try to make me appear scummie is the issue.

You're trying to blow this fake pre-knowledge thing into something. If it could be only one of two picks from the Matrix, then obviously, there might be a RB. BUT he'd be useless to scum (except being turned into a fake scum tell) as a Role Blocker, Town doesn't have anything to block.

You trying to make certain sentences stretch into some fantastic statement that just isn't there.

I think your scum buddy is afraid to come out and play, they're scared one of the Town will trip them up.


I wish the other two Town would show up and help ask questions. I'm going to ISO Matti and Shrooms and dig up a few questions for them. I'll glance back over Victor's too, but I've read his several times now. Surely you guys have

something

to say.

[jon_h61]

effort is not indicative of alignment matti

I'll again agree with gm, lots of things aren't alignment indicative.

I've looked through a lot of gm's games, and this one. I'll reiterate any points asked, but I'm convinced she has a scum slot. I'm going to go ahead and vote her. If one of us

has to be

scum, well, I know I'm not.

Take note how she accused me of calling for the 1v1. I did,

this

time. She called for it first, twice.

Speculation

I think she was hoping that I'd alienate the Town base with my responses to her posts. Notice how she attempts to come off as the beaten underdog, going for the sympathy vote.(my AtE)

Look at her quite substantial list of games.(this is burden of proficiency, another logical fallacy) She has the skill and experience to pull off a scum win.

I'm more than willing to vote her. (OMGUS)


@ Matti I've seen lots of things called OMGUS, neil tried to accuse me of OMGUSing him the last game we played together, just because I said I needed to take a closer look at his slot. Neither of us was voting the other one. My advice, don't get too hung up on definitions, stay away from absolutes, try to see

why

someone is defending, attacking, buddying, etc... Don't waste a lot of time on scum tells, they rarely catch scum.

As you play more games, work out what feels right to you, there's no one right way to play Mafia. Most of all, learn to trust your gut, don't take it too seriously, and play to have fun.


VOTE: goodmorning This is where all good and law abiding, upstanding, moral, conscientious, (fill in the adjective) Town should be placing their votes! We can't let this horrible trend of scum winning over half of the Matrix6 games continue!

[jon_h61]

Sorry for the text wall goodmorning.

If I can be less verbose I will.

I thought HighShroomish made the point that my lack of effort in 'disappearing' was close to a scum tell? Wouldn't that make effort alignment indicative at that point?

If you're Town and get hung up on trying to look like you're doing the "Townie" thing, you've just fallen into a trap. If you're scum, well, carry on.

On the issue of walls, lots of people skip them. They're mostly for the two players walling back and forth. I, personally, read every one of them. But conciseness

is

a virtue.

[jon_h61]

@ Matti DON'T REPLACE OUT! Vote gm!

[jon_h61]

@ Victor In his last wall. I missed it the first time I read over it too.

@ MAtti What I meant was if you start worrying about looking Town too much, scum can start using it against you, and make you appear even more scummie.

[jon_h61]

@Matti IF you're scum, pretend I didn't say anything.

[jon_h61]

Now we just have to wait for Mr. Flay for the flip.

@gm do you have a parting words?

Please tell me neither of you are scum. if you are, it's lights out.

[jon_h61]

Well... maybe not. A bus is possible.
If bussing is going on, then one of you two fooled me.

[jon_h61]

@ Matti Making sure you're understood is important, but never forget, scum will try to make you look bad. Sometimes they're not after a clearer understanding, but want to make you look worse.

[jon_h61]

Don't really want to know whether goodmorning is scum?

Well by virtue of you two being Town (maybe), she would have to be scum. Unless one of you two just wanted to drag out the game.

[jon_h61]

gg scums That's twice in a row I've lost here in Rome. Should have listened to HITD.

[jon_h61]

Hold it! Hold It! TOWN WINS!!! Victor and Matti were Vanilla Townies! They're Mod confirmed!

TOWN WINS

[jon_h61]

@ Void I hope you stick around, I promise, if ya stick around you won't always be a Day1 lynch.

I think

everyone

played a good game. I just wish there a

little

was more interaction.

@ Flay (or anyone) I seem to be in a rut where I keep getting into a wall war with one person. I

know

it distracts Town, and helps scum. Any suggestions for avoiding that situation? Beside not posting?

@ gm What made you think that I was scum, enough that you called for a 1v1? I'll take any constructive criticism, I'll even listen to plain criticism. That

seems

to be my main problem, right now.

I had fun with everyone, and hope to see you again in future games!

[jon_h61]

@ Void Yeah, and then you'll land a scum role, and really screw with them!