Mini 1566: Lunar Silver Star Story Complete (Game Over)

[sangres]

hi guys

[sangres]

YOU STOLE MY FIRST.

VOTE: SANGRES

This is the game you almost beat Sangres.




To the thread.

[sangres]

Votecount 1.1

[2] catboi (Kdub,

???

)
[1] Kdub (PhDScar)
[1] sangres (BROseidon)
[1] SMP (HighShroomish)

[9] Not Voting (ActionDan, Aegor, Aj The Epic, catboi, Hello Kitty Creampuff, Jake From State Farm, Mac, sangres, SMP)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2014-04-23 23:00:00)

interesting

[sangres]

I would never break your heart, Mac.

[sangres]

<3

my god the mullet on that guy.

[sangres]

Anything and everything. It could even mean he's publically hated

We could probably test and eliminate some of the possibilities with a little vote-testing, once everyone's checked in and active.

[sangres]

VOTE: Sangres

[sangres]

Marabert you guys are being pretty quiet.

[sangres]

So is Nacho, ffery

and this is different from his recent games...how?

It's coming up on weekend, so I expect he'll be around.

[sangres]

Marabert you guys are being pretty quiet.

Are we freaking you out? If so, I'm glad u didn't say it as it would sound fake!

more concerned that we apparently weren't freaking you out.

we're separately a paranoia parfait for you. as a hydra that ought to be quantum singularity levels of paranoia.

[sangres]

ur pressure is really mild in a crowd of extremely outspoken verbal ppl usually, ffery

also we are on pg 3.

at least you are engaging me which is something you strayed away from in 1543 yes?

pretty sure I pressured you into voting me after you replaced into ny 169. That was a fast moving game. this one isn't, so far.

1543 isn't going to be very relevant to this game.

[sangres]

it wont be if you step it up

im glad this is slower. i actually never caught up with 169 and was lost the whole time, proph did a good job replacing in and i really dont know why he got lynched later on.

You implied earlier that I was atypically pressuring you. What is this step it up shit?

[sangres]

I have a townread on PHDScar.
I have a townread on HKC.

[sangres]

ActionDan is kinda town.

[sangres]

Vote: catboi

I don't really know why we were voting ourselves.

[sangres]

I have a townread on PHDScar.
I have a townread on HKC.

ActionDan is kinda town.

Agree with all.

my vote was trying to figure out mechanics around the hidden vote/voter. need more data.

[sangres]

With the fake " OMG are town " post and the now omgus vote

I feel good

Why is it fake?

[sangres]

Why not?

[sangres]

Why did it take you so long to come up with that response?

[sangres]

MASONSSSSSS LOVER VIG DOCTORS

what a borky setup right??!?!? i got so mad at mara for not claiming first thing.

What happens if my roleblock does get heads on my 50/50 chance? Does the lover thing get blocked as well?

No.

[sangres]

Why not?

Town shouldn't need to force posts to make people read them a certain way and that post was exactly that. Only scum need to manipulate people's perceptions

Why were they forcing the post instead of just posting?
That's what I'm interested in: the main point of your post here is that they forced it instead of posting it. Do you not think town calls themselves town?

[sangres]

Why did it take you so long to come up with that response?

Was this at me?

Yes.

[sangres]

How is it different?

[sangres]

Because she said Bert sent her a message?

[sangres]

Cause they posted it in the form of a question. It struck me as odd so I'm rolling with it. It's a gut thing, you wouldn't understand.

I see.

[sangres]

fferycho when you're done with Jake I have a question!

hai

[sangres]

I think your case is probably bad but I think you know that.

[sangres]

I just wondered the reasoning behind this question?

Why did it take you so long to come up with that response?

It felt like a long time.

[sangres]

It's also an easy enough way to increase pressure. I didn't really get anything useful out of our interaction, as was expected.

[sangres]

I think your case is probably bad but I think you know that.

Although I did sort of hope for some kind of response to this.

[sangres]

It's also an easy enough way to increase pressure. I didn't really get anything useful out of our interaction, as was expected.

I see. I didn't particularly feel like it was an insightful question since anything could happen in the time between two posts. But I understand the motives.

Do you think Jake's lack of a reaction towards this pressure, other than "no", is telling?

A bit, yeah.
The response I was hoping for was something that's more like "this is so ridiculous, who gives a fuck?".
I will also say that he felt very detached from his vote, which I don't really take as a good sign.

[sangres]

I think your case is probably bad but I think you know that.

Although I did sort of hope for some kind of response to this.

This is ground control to major Jake.

[sangres]

You've really got to goooo

[sangres]

I'm feeling not so hot on you todaaaayyyyy

[sangres]

Can you hear me Major Jake?
Can you hear me Major Jake?

[sangres]

I don't watch football, I wouldn't know.

how is my question irrelavant, and why are you ignoring the follow up?

What does my hydra activity have to do with anything?

What does you being dropped or whatever have to do anything?

Even if you had a valid behind the scenes story, it doesn't explain why you posted that comment here instead of keeping it behind the scenes.

P.edit - idk what you are talking about sangres, when I get home I'll read your recent posts.

You haven't been able to read my one liners because you haven't been at home?

[sangres]

Mac is a townread.

[sangres]

Yep it does. Why would people starting piling votes on Jake though?

I meant it was still opportunistic by the way. I think I got the language screwed up in the first sentence.

I think it could get people to pile votes because it was early, and people like to wagon early, also it could seem like a legitimate vote at first glance. Hence me say "tempting" which still seems to be lost on people.

Why are early wagons bad, doctor?

They aren't I didn't say they were. What I was saying was that that naked vote could of easily lead to a wagon and been very beneficial to scum. I would appreciate more votes on ActionDan right about now guys.

Why?

[sangres]

I don't think I've been particularly opaque about my scumread on him.

[sangres]

Why should I vote actionDan?

[sangres]

Why do naked votes encourage wagons?

[sangres]

Why do naked votes encourage wagons?

Read over my discussion with Mac I'm 99% sure we have already covered all these questions, if you still don't get everything after then ask away, but I'm certain I've already answered this.

Don't care, answer it again.

[sangres]

Yep it does. Why would people starting piling votes on Jake though?

I meant it was still opportunistic by the way. I think I got the language screwed up in the first sentence.

I think it could get people to pile votes because it was early, and people like to wagon early, also it could seem like a legitimate vote at first glance. Hence me say "tempting" which still seems to be lost on people.

Why are early wagons bad, doctor?

They aren't I didn't say they were. What I was saying was that that naked vote could of easily lead to a wagon and been very beneficial to scum. I would appreciate more votes on ActionDan right about now guys.

This isn't an answer.

[sangres]

Yep it does. Why would people starting piling votes on Jake though?

I meant it was still opportunistic by the way. I think I got the language screwed up in the first sentence.

I think it could get people to pile votes because it was early, and people like to wagon early, also it could seem like a legitimate vote at first glance. Hence me say "tempting" which still seems to be lost on people.

This isn't really an answer.
It looks like a legitimate vote because it doesn't have reasons?

[sangres]

And people would sheep it because they like to wagon?
But they usually don't like to lynch because someone placed a tempting wagon vote.

[sangres]

I just wondered the reasoning behind this question?

Why did it take you so long to come up with that response?

It felt like a long time.

Scars a strange one. I think I'll put him as scummy at this point.

Mac is a fair townread.

Who else would you vote?

[sangres]

What do you think about Jake?

[sangres]

She was town in Walking Dead.

[sangres]

bro where the fuck are you?

[sangres]

Why is ffery changing her playstyle

my playstyle must be more varied than you realize.

[sangres]

That should be a rule. The point of a hydra is to talk to each other outside the thread. So they should do that.

I won't replace out because I really want to play and I'll bite my tongue on the other things I want to say.

>.>

[sangres]

I don't know how I feel about Jake's replace out bit.
It doesn't seem like he would manipulate the mod in order to make a replacement more likely to go through, but I could be wrong about that.

[sangres]

Well, the last five pages were pretty fucking useless.

VOTE: PhD

Posting really does feel like newbscum throughout. Specifically, contributions that are plausible but shallow, followed by frequent OMGUS/bad votes and then immediate backpedaling (me, Aj).

Would also entertain a HKC lynch.

In other news, I feel flattered that I am being scumread.

I don't think immediate backpedaling was particularly scummy.

[sangres]

Vote: Aegor

[sangres]

You're welcome.

[sangres]

AD has played with me twice

Does that change things ?

No, it doesn't.

wat.

VOTE: Mac for now.

Please try again.

[sangres]

On the subject of walls vs. multi-posting
If you multi post, but say walls are anti-town, to make your posts a wall, you just take out the lines separating them. And I'm not talking about all your posts, just the 10 in a row that are all one liners taking up half a page, which makes the whole thing much more annoying to read. You could at least just make it into 2 or 3 whole posts, just to meet halfway. But saying you have no problem with posting a bunch of one liners in a row, but that walls are anti-town, doesn't add up at all.

This really is a personal preference on the reader side - some people prefer to read walls and some prefer back and forth conversations between two players be separate from back and forth with other plaers.

And, in our case, my other head mostly posts via tablet or phone with very rare (and heavily utilized) times on a borrowed laptop. On a tablet, multiquotes and quotestripe catch-ups (which is his preferred style) aren't possible, so he winds up doing several posts in short succession. Please bear with it.

[sangres]

note to self: always assume the ??? vote means L-2 = L-1.

other note to self: ??? could have held off until L-1 and hammered. And didn't. very tiny nail upon which to hang a town read. :/

[sangres]

Cause he's scummy

I'm not voting him out of principle but I would if I could

What do you mean by the bolded?

[sangres]

DrScar, you called AD opportunistic voting Jake - why have you ignored the fact that Aegor and Jake were trying to policy lynch HKC, and in particular the fact that Jake is parking his vote there in an effort to be as anti-town as possible?

Since when is voting for my top scum read anti-town

I'm eager to see you explain that

It's the reasons for your scum read that make the vote pretty anti-town. Though I'd probably just go ahead and call the vote scummy, myself.

[sangres]

Ffery, can we have it?

early days.

[sangres]

ffery: when is it not to early to lynch scum?

by my lights jake's play is usually anti-town when he's town especially early-to-mid day 1. At least it was prior to his playstyle change. I don't think the playstyle change really took, long term. This looks more like the jake from early-mid 2013 than the jake in the Chef mafia game.

I want to give him time to show his alignment. It will show with time.

[sangres]

your new avatar is disturbing.

[sangres]

VOTE: Jake from State Farm

[sangres]

Dramatic. What made you turn? Because I'm starting to fall that way too. But I still don't particularly like Shroomish.

Tonally posts 407, 409and 412 felt sleazy and manipulative. There was other stuff earlier, but I could see it coming from town-Jake on one of his hobby-horses. But at that point he crossed over into the territory I associate with his scum game. He started playing to the crowd.

[sangres]

He started playing to the crowd.

in case it wasn't obvious in my first reaction post, i'm waiting to hear you explain this since it's obviously a lie

Opinions aren't lies and my opinion stands. I think you're trying to drum up anti-hydra sentiment in this game as a large component of your HKC case, to make up for the fact that your actual case is mostly misrep/opinion rather than fact-based. If you really hated hydrae that much you'd be more vocal in the MD threads about them, and you'd avoid games where hydrae sign up.

Shall I quote all the posts in the past where you've falsely accused me of lying in games? It's alignment-neutral in the abstract, but not at all neutral in context.

[sangres]

Trying to drum up anti-hydra sentiment IS playing to the crowd.

[sangres]

Someone explain the case on Scar for me? The most I've gotten from wading through the noise has been Aj's initial vote on him in 212. Everyone else on the wagon, I'm unclear on why they suspect him.

It's a horrible wagon, he's town... Why does it feel like you haven't gotten engaged at all this game? You aren't scum again, are you?

[sangres]

fferycho is now a solid town read. And I'm starting to lean town on HS too.

unvote

I'm a little surprised you're solidly townreading us but yay. Agree on highshroomish.

I have independent reasons for thinking that both Jake and Aegor look scummy, but I'm having a little trouble picturing them as part of a team. :/

SMP is becoming a pretty distinct concern.

catboi's paraphrased fuckit-i'll-post-tomorrow gave me some town flickers, though!

[sangres]

His sitewide activity this week looks pretty sparse. His posts so far are troubling, though.

[sangres]

Idc anymore tbh

Jakes endless tunnels are so annoying tha in second guessing myself wtf

that's what you get for not letting me play my new playstyle, if you are town i'd suggest you drop this trolling schtick you are doing and take this game more seriously.

also I am pretty sure I know who the ??? voter is

^^ this post gives me hives because you're blaming other people for what you, yourself, are posting.

Jake seems like legitimately frustrated town here. I could see noob-scum panic claiming with just a few votes on them, but Jake isn't a noob.

except, I don't think he's panic claiming... not really, and even if he was even the most experienced are prone to such a thing. I still think he's trying to get people scared of lynching him.

Fun fact I hate playing mafia but I'm pretty good at it and I would never, NEVER panic claim as scum. Even when the deck is stacked against me I don't give up.

As town I don't care as much cause i know we still out number mafia but when I'm mafia I don't trust my teammates to handle the game cause I'm conceited like that.

So you want to sit there and honestly think you got me to panic claim as scum with 2 fucking votes you are delusional. But do everyone on this site a favor. Cut the fucking trolling out if you are town.

^^ this on the other hand is one of the few things you've posted that give me any sort of a townfeel.

[sangres]

Trying to drum up anti-hydra sentiment IS playing to the crowd.

ok but i am not trying to drum up anti-hydra sentiment so I am not playing towards the crowd.

so now take your vote off me

appealing to fear

using scare tactics

trying to make people scared of you

I do not think that you, yourself is scared. I think you are trying to scare other people.

I'm not doing that though. You are misinterpreting my actions.

I'm actually telling people to lynch me.

@kdub - I didn't start changing my play style for this game. I started a while ago and have at least 2 completed games with it. It's more of a " go with the flow" playstyle. That kinda went out the window though when people started making up lies about me and calling things scummy that aren't scummy. Plus I got baited by hk's trolling.

Right.

[sangres]

When I told you to remove your vote that was once I proved how obv town I was. Only scum or people holding grudges are trying to say in not obv town.

Your discredit attempt is noted with amusement.

me

[sangres]

HS, no response to why you were trying to get Jake to claim?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: HighShroomish

I am not familiar with SMP's meta, so I don't have a very strong opinion on him. Low activity level alone is a pretty weak reason for a lynch IMO.

And I am still pissed at all of you for not letting me play the game I wanted to, I wanted to stick to my new playstyle but no you all were bunch of derpy derps. My new playstyle is supposed to be less argumentative and more go with the flow as my last couple of games have gone. This game has not been the new Jake and I am not happy about it.

Can you explain the differences between your old and new playstyle and why you decided to change for this game? I think we've only been in one game together before, so I'm not sure what the distinction is.

Yes, Kdub, that is correct.


So I want SMP dead, and then HS. Also catboi.

How did everyone miss this? I checked his join date right after reading to see if this guy was new and was about to call him newb scum but now I'm confused: How do you justify this post? It isn't even trying to cover up that he wants to chain lynch.

Meh, I don't see it as a chain lynch unless he said lynching HS was contingent on SMP flipping a certain way. Aegor is scummy for other reasons though.

Jake seems like legitimately frustrated town here. I could see noob-scum panic claiming with just a few votes on them, but Jake isn't a noob.

except, I don't think he's panic claiming... not really, and even if he was even the most experienced are prone to such a thing. I still think he's trying to get people scared of lynching him.

But he wasn't anywhere near being lynched. Would scum claim due to just a few votes to try to head things off at that point? There are strategic reasons for scum not locking themselves into a claim too early. I guess it's possible, but I can't recall any instances off the top of my head where that has happened.

I don't like this vote.

[sangres]

Rereading this game was just as painful as the first time around.

I'm liking Aj and Mac as town so far. HKC's posting still is annoying, but I am getting a weakish town read on them because there are some strings of posts throughout that feel genuine and like they are honestly trying to work things out.

I'm not sure why you're reading AJ as town.

[sangres]

Someone explain the case on Scar for me? The most I've gotten from wading through the noise has been Aj's initial vote on him in 212. Everyone else on the wagon, I'm unclear on why they suspect him.

It's a horrible wagon, he's town... Why does it feel like you haven't gotten engaged at all this game? You aren't scum again, are you?

It feels like I haven't been engaged because I really haven't been engaged so far. First few days of the game, I was busy and didn't have much time. Lots of garbage to wade through with all of the spamposting, and I don't have especially strong reads at the moment.

If you think Scar is town and his wagon was bad, why are you going after Jake rather than someone who you think might be scum pushing that wagon?

We were pushing Jake because we thought Jake was scum (currently am not so sure he is). I don't really understand the question, though: is scumhunting off his wagon the only acceptable course of action for us to take as town? Why wouldn't we do it as scum?

[sangres]

I'm not sure why you're reading AJ as town.

On that note, I am not sure why you are town reading PhdScar, HKC, Mac, and Action Dan

PhdScar - his posts are coming from a town mindset
HKC - meta-reading both heads as town.
Mac - also showing a town mindset in his posts
AD - he's the most difficult of the town reads for me, but Nacho is good at calling him.

[sangres]

mara head hasn't been trolling by my lights, so I'm not going to bother to support that. And Bert's early trolling is the stuff of legends, but isn't why I'm meta-reading him as town.

For games where Nacho pegged AD as town early I suggest

Walking Dead - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=30368

Fire Embem Awakening - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=31053

Bonus link. I bet the farm on him being town and flavor claimed for him on day 1 of Xenosaga, because Nacho wasn't available that week. Nacho concurred after the fact. AD masonized us that night. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37614

[sangres]

I feel like Aegor in particular is really benefiting from all the noise in the thread.

[sangres]

Yes, Kdub, that is correct.


So I want SMP dead, and then HS. Also catboi.

Why do you want SMP dead?

[sangres]

We really should be lynching hkc/smp/shroom guaranteed 2 scum in this pool

and your reasons for thinking smp and shroom could be part of a team are?

[sangres]

We really should be lynching hkc/smp/shroom guaranteed 2 scum in this pool

and your reasons for thinking smp and shroom could be part of a team are?

He was trying to pressure him early on to appear to be distancing but once he got a couple of votes he lied about his activity on another site to defend him. That stands out to me.

If smp is actually scum though I think your actions around the smp suspicion look off. Being you like to use meta yet you ignore the rock solid meta case I made.

You made an extremely cursory meta case. I do want to dig a little further into the meta and will probably overcome my distaste for offsite non-experiential meta sometime tonight and do a more thorough read.

But this does bring up something that troubles me. You know that on the one hand I'm a relatively easy lynch as scum, and a very difficult lynch as town. So your sideways FoSes, like this one, look like you know you're tangling with town me whom you need to discredit, not scum me whom you need to get lynched.

And that attitude has suffused your posts and is part of the reason I think you're scum. If you are town, then make up your mind and do something that could maybe highlight my alignment this game, or stick to scumhunting elsewhere.

[sangres]

HS is town

I'd actually like to see your reasons for thinking this.

[sangres]

We really should be lynching hkc/smp/shroom guaranteed 2 scum in this pool

and your reasons for thinking smp and shroom could be part of a team are?

He was trying to pressure him early on to appear to be distancing but once he got a couple of votes he lied about his activity on another site to defend him. That stands out to me.

If smp is actually scum though I think your actions around the smp suspicion look off. Being you like to use meta yet you ignore the rock solid meta case I made.

You made an extremely cursory meta case. I do want to dig a little further into the meta and will probably overcome my distaste for offsite non-experiential meta sometime tonight and do a more thorough read.

But this does bring up something that troubles me. You know that on the one hand I'm a relatively easy lynch as scum, and a very difficult lynch as town. So your sideways FoSes, like this one, look like you know you're tangling with town me whom you need to discredit, not scum me whom you need to get lynched.

And that attitude has suffused your posts and is part of the reason I think you're scum. If you are town, then make up your mind and do something that could maybe highlight my alignment this game, or stick to scumhunting elsewhere.

I don't know you are easy to lynch as scum or hard to lynch as town. Where did you even come up with that bs?

Games we've played in the past. Specifically Vengeball and Chef mafia.

Also, you did some of the same discredit crap in Thad's neighborhood game, where you literally couldn't get morph-me lynched.

[sangres]

aj... is so scummy....

nacho, are you awake?

Nacho's not here right now.

Hi.

I'm not thrilled with AJ either.

Have you read the whole thread?

What are your thoughts on the main wagons?

I like your Aegor vote.

[sangres]

VOTE: SMP

hmph...
SMP where are you? Why have you only had ONE post all game? I don't even think I'm usually this quiet, especially in a fast moving game like this.

Why the tunnel on SMP when I'd been equally inactive up to this point?

Same for you. Why you posting elsewhere but not here.

Eh?

I've been fairly inactive site-wide.

Also this game bores me.

No you were posting elsewhere and being bored isn't a good excuse.

P.edit - vague Memory of chef mafia you got yourself lynched and it wasn't anything I did.

Vengeball wasn't i scum?

The other game I'd have to go back cause I honestly don't remember.

This is evasion.

What would your alignment have to do with my lynchability? You pushed like hell for the entirety of day 2 to get me lynched in that game, including various lies canards. I sat at L-1 for several calendar days, and the lynch didn't go through.

[sangres]

/raspberry...............

UNVOTE:
VOTE: aj

i'll also take a kdub lynch

I wasn't expecting to like catboi's replacement.

[sangres]

i'll stop you right there. there's no such thing as a "rock solid" meta case. it doesn't exist.

also, as far as i can see, sangres isn't voting you

We are voting him, though that's probably going to change after Nacho and I synch.

Although HKC's got him dead to rights about his AtF crap and highly idiosyncratic definition of "lie", IMO this has slid more in the direction of his town game.

The other players I'd consider lynching are kdub, Aegor and AJ. Which is part of why I liked your catch-up. SMP is a maybe, which could firm up tonight, but I doubt it.

[sangres]

Btw mafia isn't about finding town. It's about finding scum. I don't need town reads. I need scum reads and only need scum reads

ha ha. Ffery, you can take this one.

It's a vast philosphical difference that results in radically different approaches to the game.

I've seen a few players who approach the game that way who play really stellar games. Chamber leaps to mind.

It's a complete pain in the ass to play with most players who approach the game only that way.

[sangres]

damn that didn't work

vote: hk

faking or legitimate there is NO FUCKING EXCUSE for drunk posting if you are town. NONE and if you turn out to be town I'll just add you to my list but you said you weren't trolling, drunk posting is trolling plain and simple.

why don't people have respect for this fucking game? jesus christ

the irony.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4884633

First post of that bunch:

Subject: Micro 158: borkgame (Game Over)

i'm town FUCK YEAH

I'm gonna tear some fucking shit up..

just not tonight. I'm fucking drunk

And you went on to post through the night.

[sangres]

still, mara, this isn't moving the game forward. go have fun being drunk on skype.

[sangres]

That's a lie right there.

Jake did you lie when you said nacho said he had to start work at mcdonalds or w/e it was?

[sangres]

That's a lie right there.

Jake did you lie when you said nacho said he had to start work at mcdonalds or w/e it was?

me

[sangres]

Sangres doesn't have a gender attacked to it either... wat?

we left it blank when we set up the hydra. That was before "they" was an option. If I cared about being misgendered by people in our hydra games I'd probably do something about it.

[sangres]

That's a lie right there.

Jake did you lie when you said nacho said he had to start work at mcdonalds or w/e it was?

me

I already responded so what's with the face?

I didn't see it in the posts that whizzed by.

So, you ignored the comment about dodging nacho?

I'm not sure which post of nacho's mara's talking about.

the thing that bothers me about your fast and loose use of the term "lie" is that you call misunderstandings lies. You call misinterpretations lies. You call disagreements lies. You call opinions different from yours lies.

It dilutes the meaning. And I imagine that people sometimes gloss over any actual lies you turn up because so many of the things you call lies aren't.

If you're town and you're trying to build effective cases, what you're doing with all the lie accusations is actually counterproductive.

[sangres]

How is pointing out hk's multiple lies counter productive?

because I think you're pretty much alone in considering them lies.

[sangres]

okay well go on about your crusade then.

[sangres]

most of what I've seen while I was still paying attention was differences of opinion and observations from different vantage points. Sort of like me seeing your replies to some of my posts as discredits and you deny that. It's possible that neither of us are lying. But, I feel my observation is valid and I want you to think about how you're talking to me. And, don't dismiss out of hand the possibility that you don't intend to discredit me.

gah

[sangres]

where are the reasons?

[sangres]

most of what I've seen while I was still paying attention was differences of opinion and observations from different vantage points. Sort of like me seeing your replies to some of my posts as discredits and you deny that. It's possible that neither of us are lying. But, I feel my observation is valid and I want you to think about how you're talking to me. And, don't dismiss out of hand the possibility that you don't intend to discredit me.

gah

Just reread and realized I left a word out. The last sentence should read "And

I

don't dismiss out of hand the possibility that you don't intend to discredit me."

[sangres]

In other news.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Kdub

[sangres]

Whoops. Forgot to ask you why you think I in particular am benefiting from the spam.

My reasons are simple: This game makes me sad. Killing HKC or Jake would cut the number of posts in half and make me not sad since I could actually contribute. Killing me would make me happy because it would remove me from the hell that is slogging through the posts in this thread. It is page 34 and I still have no actual reads on anyone, and I do not really think a re-read will change that. I have very little to offer here.

You in particular because you're using your vote as a ratchet with no real reasoning for why you think each person you're voting is scum. When the vote is so obviously a ratchet it should be drawing a lot more questions. And would if the thread were less noisy.

[sangres]

The other players I'd consider lynching are kdub, Aegor and AJ. Which is part of why I liked your catch-up. SMP is a maybe, which could firm up tonight, but I doubt it.

Had you mentioned any of these before the Anti replace-in?

That shouldn't be to hard to figure out on your own.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned my concerns about Aegor. I think Nacho did too, but I'm not going to go back and check it. Aegor was pinging from quite early with his voting pattern. Nacho questioned kdub in his last visit to the thread. I don't think either of us have mentioned AJ, and Antihero did influence that read somewhat, mostly because his other comments have been very much in line with what I've thought about the game during those moments when I can hear myself think in here.

[sangres]

I think Aegor is the scum on Jake's wagon.

[sangres]

You mentioned me before Anti-hero posted, ignored my questioning of why you thought I wasn't town and answered jake's post, the post right after mine. So again, why do you think I might not be town? Anti-hero's posting certainly hasn't clarified anything at all.

That post was made by Nacho, which is why I haven't answered it. We haven't talked about this game at all except for a quick text burst I initiated about Jake before I moved our vote last night. You've been null to me, and afaik null to Nacho prior to Antihero's replace-in.

[sangres]

He claimed he had a PR and I thought he was scum, so I was hoping he would claim something that could be counter claimed.

OK, this statement shows an underlying lack of town motivation. First of all, there is such a thing as safeclaims. Second, and more importantly,

you wanted to potentially out more PRs by looking for a counterclaim

. Your thought process here is not pro-town.

Also, let's say nobody counterclaims. Then what? Do you believe Jake, or do you want to lynch him anyway?

When you're scumreading someone, how do you generally feel about their claims? How much more burden of proof do you want than from someone you're townreading who claims?

Factor in relative inexperience at the game. His play in the boardgame mini showed a similar depth of thought IMO.

Do you think scum-shroom would have such open, visible, clear thought process?

I don't. I think as scum someone with his number of games under his belt wouldn't be making such brash waves.

[sangres]

And I feel like you're going after low-hanging fruit here.

[sangres]

#fucklogic

maybe just stop reacting to every little thing he posts for a while and take a wider look at the game?

[sangres]

don't let it distract from lynching aj the scumbag, though.

he's scum. and very transparently scum at that. lynch him.

We need to consolidate at some point. Not that I want the scumposts to dry up, but we can only lynch one today.

[sangres]

so will I. I think of those three, the most null one to us is AJ.

Nacho wants to know wtf kdub's problem with shroom is and that's our current priority.

[sangres]

A "few posts" on my iso equate to over 100 posts in thread. Please don't act like it was sudden. I never claimed to make a case on Scar OR catboi. I voted Scar on gut, and made it pretty damn clear it was exactly that. Catboi, I also said I was "Uncomfortable with" Catboi's timing. He voted right after me, made no real case and followed his pattern of having nothing thought out other than these short, unhelpful and frankly bad posts.

didn't say anything was sudden. the timing was calculated pretty well for when the phd wagon came to a peak.

And please. Read my scum games. I'm arguably a better player when scum. You stating anything of mine is "scum logic" is incredibly dangerous because I know and use that to my advantage. I'm not sure anyone here can actively attest to having played a full game against me when I was scum outside of Jake, who died N1. Sangres has at least read some of mine, including an SK game so can probably give some insight into my meta to verify this.

yeah, self meta is crap.
sangres hasn't piped up about this so far.

Oh jesus. He's obviously my buddy because he votes you, right? Not like your shitpost tunneling could possibly warrant a vote...

i'm tunneling?

jake, what would you call this^?

Actually Nacho and I both played against traitor-AJ in the Xenogears game. So did you. I think you replaced in before he was lynched. His play was really smooth and he was basically caught out mostly by a bad claim.

traitors and groupscum play somewhat differently.

It was funny (interesting, not haha). AJ had just convinced Sangres-us that he was town in the walking dead game with some really genuine feeling "I get how it feels to be lynch-bait town and how hard it is to care about the game when nobody listens to you and nobody is going to look back at your reads after your flip" type posting.

His using the same appeal in xenogears should have been a warning sign, not a warm fuzzy.

[sangres]

oh, so the self-meta

was

a bunch of shit?

who could have known?

I don't think I debunked his self meta particularly.

[sangres]

8 posts.

[sangres]

HS where the fuck are you?

[sangres]

HS where the fuck are you?

Watching.

While you're watching, plz explain your vote. And why you think a onesie vote made sense when you thought it was down to 24 hours.

[sangres]

Can people actually explain their votes in this game? Why ageor kitty? And why amvi being told to claim without even one case on me?

Physician heal thyself.

A note that you put him at L-1 wouldn't go amiss either.

[sangres]

Vote: SMP

[sangres]

FU, sangres. SMP was at 5 votes way earlier in the game. Where were you on that bandwagon then?

We have one day left. Please explain to us why HS should be kept alive.

You explain why he shouldn't.

His vote on Mac was bad, but it doesn't look scummy to us.

And why you are not willing to vote for him now.

We're generally not in favor of lynching townreads. I know, it's a radical idea, but it might just catch on.

[sangres]

FU, sangres. SMP was at 5 votes way earlier in the game. Where were you on that bandwagon then?

We have one day left. Please explain to us why HS should be kept alive.

You explain why he shouldn't.

His vote on Mac was bad, but it doesn't look scummy to us.

And why you are not willing to vote for him now.

We're generally not in favor of lynching townreads. I know, it's a radical idea, but it might just catch on.

I'm a bit mystified as to why you haven't called out Shroomish for the lack of following up to your request for an explanation to be honest.

I'm also curious as to how you see the vote as not scummy, because I'm seeing the total opposite here.

I thought it was pretty obvious what the vote was about from his post to PhDScar.

Though an explicit explanation wouldn't go amiss, Shroom.

[sangres]

He's a relatively inexperienced player who hails from Cabd's homesite.

[sangres]

We still think he looks town, Mac.

My understanding is that gambits are pretty frequent. And from what I've seen in other games (this is my 2nd game with him, and I've also run into him once or twice via metaing players) he's a sponge, picking up ideas, techniques, philosophies from other players he's come into contact with. I saw some stuff from the game we played show up in another game shortly thereafter.

His play has a rough-edged aggressive feel to it that reminds me of newer players who have won a town game or two.

I suppose we could be misreading that. But, I don't want to lynch him today.

[sangres]

12 hours, and I'm fairly sure every question I have to ask is the following:

Why is Shroom getting lynched over SMP?
Why is Antihero lurking?

[sangres]

assume shroom is scum and jake's town. why would shroom ask for a counterclaim? he knew he wouldn't get one.

What? The whole point of scum-HS asking for a claim is to find out Jake's role. The "looking for a counterclaim" stuff I think he made up as an excuse. That's why I was asking him about what he would do if there were no counterclaim, and I don't think he's given a good answer.

My initial thought was also to ask for a claim so that Jake would be forced into claiming a specific role: I think town motivation behind asking for someone to expand upon a PR claim is pretty fucking obvious and not completely and totally scum motivated like you're pretending it must be.

I also think you know that, but have decided to take this line of attack because it sounds awkward and you think you have a decent line of attack as scum.

[sangres]

Vote: Shroomish

I'm going back here. My lean-townread has been utterly obliterated over the course of this page.

Because it is inconsistent? Because it goes against his earlier read and is abrupt? Why do you think that scum-Shroomish attempts to start a new wagon right before deadline on someone that currently has no votes on him?

[sangres]

because i had an overdose of this game when i replaced in and i had to get the hell away from it for a bit

AJ isn't getting lynched. Vote SMP.

[sangres]

HS where the fuck are you?

Watching.

Also, what's the motivation for this...?
It pretty clearly seems like shitty town gambit city here: I can't see scum drawing so much attention to themselves for absolutely no reason.

[sangres]

Like, absolutely no reason. He's not getting a mislynch. He's not buddying up to someone and sheeping their vote. He's not discrediting an attacker. He's just doing it.

[sangres]

because i had an overdose of this game when i replaced in and i had to get the hell away from it for a bit

AJ isn't getting lynched. Vote SMP.

smp...
what for?

Do you think he's town?

[sangres]

houston we have a problem here, I like a Shroom wagon but i don't like the people who are on it

That's because the wagon sucksand you probably shouldn't be on it.

[sangres]

FU, sangres. SMP was at 5 votes way earlier in the game. Where were you on that bandwagon then?

We have one day left. Please explain to us why HS should be kept alive.

There's a significant difference between sustained lurking and lurking in bursts.
I would ask why you aren't voting him currently, but I assume you don't really have any scumreads you care about over others.

[sangres]

Vote: Shroomish

I'm going back here. My lean-townread has been utterly obliterated over the course of this page.

Mac, did you get scum this game? This post is bad :/

You can explain why if you want, meanwhile here's why my townread was decimated. Shroomish agreed with sangres townread of me a few pages back, preceded to never mention me again until the vote and, despite two people asking,

is still yet to explain his vote.

This is a characteristic I'd associate with newish scum who forget how they faked their reads and I think it ties in here - since he hasn't given a direct read on me, he's forgotten that he agreed with sangres townread of me. The "shit, 24 hours" comment followed by starting a brand, shiny new wagon felt extremely fake and the lack of explanation & follow up to it has left me feeling rather uneasy with the whole thing.

Vote: Shroomish

How often do you think newbie scum forget their reads?
The answer is: not often, because they don't normally fake many reads in the first place. You also haven't even come close to explaining why new scum goes making the brand new shiny wagon on you of all people.

[sangres]

what about the fact that he was going after for SMP early on but once SMP got votes on him he started defending smp, to the point where he (hold on to your hats here guys) LIED about smp's play on another site.

What is the town motivation behind that?

I see no reason why he would do as much intentionally as scum unless he were scum with SMP.

[sangres]

Meaning, that SMP vote? Still a great vote.

[sangres]

FU, sangres. SMP was at 5 votes way earlier in the game. Where were you on that bandwagon then?

We have one day left. Please explain to us why HS should be kept alive.

You explain why he shouldn't.

His vote on Mac was bad, but it doesn't look scummy to us.

And why you are not willing to vote for him now.

We're generally not in favor of lynching townreads. I know, it's a radical idea, but it might just catch on.

I'm a bit mystified as to why you haven't called out Shroomish for the lack of following up to your request for an explanation to be honest.

I'm also curious as to how you see the vote as not scummy, because I'm seeing the total opposite here.

I don't think either of us expected a good explanation.
It didn't seem like a very thought out kind of move where I'm standing, but maybe that's just me and I don't have enough faith in people.

[sangres]

...or, instead of being scum together, Shroom could be town who misremembered SMP's meta, which is entirely possible (probable, even!).

[sangres]

You also haven't shown me scum motivation behind Mac-vote.

[sangres]

My initial thought was also to ask for a claim so that Jake would be forced into claiming a specific role: I think town motivation behind asking for someone to expand upon a PR claim is pretty fucking obvious and not completely and totally scum motivated like you're pretending it must be.

I also think you know that, but have decided to take this line of attack because it sounds awkward and you think you have a decent line of attack as scum.

That's a fine reason to ask Jake for a claim if you are town, but

that wasn't the reason HS gave

. I'm not saying town motivation can't exist, I'm saying that the line of reasoning HS took was not town-motivated. Your argument here is irrelevant to what he actually posted, which you decided to ignore for some reason and instead ascribed some hypothetical town-motivated reasoning to his actions.

Which sangres head am I talking to BTW? Are you both in agreement about your reads on HS/SMP/me?

He gave the reasoning that he wanted to see if anyone counter claimed. I think the intent is the same: PR claim is no risk for scum!Jake, forcing him to claim a specific role is added risk for scum!Jake. Do you seriously not see that?

We are in agreement about our reads.

[sangres]

I have no problem with an SMP lynch, I am just very leery that a last minute scramble is taking place to save shroom. Both of them are on my scum list so i'm really confused by Sangres's scramble

We think one of them is scum while the other is not. What is hard to understand about this?

[sangres]

yeah I am but I already said I will just take a long shower if shroom does flip town.

you haven't done a good job convincing me why kdub was scum anyway, i am more leery with smp/mac being on the wagon than I am with kdub

I won't take a long shower when shroom flips town.
I will be sad because we mislynched for no fucking reason.

[sangres]

I have no problem with an SMP lynch, I am just very leery that a last minute scramble is taking place to save shroom. Both of them are on my scum list so i'm really confused by Sangres's scramble

ffery head answering this two. You should know pretty well by now that I don't sit on my hands and say yeah why not when someone I'm townreading is being run up.

I argued against your lynch repeatedly, including arguing with my hydra partner, in the buzzword bingo game all the while you were undermining my credibility, calling me a liar, and even voting me.

[sangres]

What's the big deal of voting SMP over Shroom if you believe both to be scum?
1) Sketchy people are voting Shroom, meaning either A) they're bussing and don't mind losing him, or B) it's a mislynch.
2) People are toe reading Shroom. No one is town reading SMP.

[sangres]

We've talked about that plenty, you haven't addressed any of it,

[sangres]

Additionally:

What's the big deal of voting SMP over Shroom if you believe both to be scum?
1) Sketchy people are voting Shroom, meaning either A) they're bussing and don't mind losing him, or B) it's a mislynch.
2) People are toe reading Shroom. No one is town reading SMP.

[sangres]

so... what?

i'll take aj, kdub, or aegor

Kdub, Dan, and maybe bro Outside of Jake. I'll try and expand when I get home

Why is Shroom at L-1? that's Skeevy as fuck and I honestly don't see why so many people are scum-reading him when he knows that he was blatantly actively lurking, yet didn't seem to even care about what people thought about it, and has become an incredibly easy target for scum to push, nor can I see how so many townies are missing that as I seriously doubt that the wagon is majorly scum-composed

Similarly, I'm opposed to joining the SMP wagon for similar reasons. I don't see why his bad posts are scummy, I just see them I bad. I definitely won't be sheeping the cases that, I don't even agree with.

So SMP is town because...?

[sangres]

people are calling him scum for anti-town reasons, non-alignment indicative reasons, and "meta" that isn't really even meta

This doesn't make him town.

[sangres]

and, he seems to be an easy target to go after

This additionally doesn't make him town.

[sangres]

I haven't played on this site with a secret voter, but there's no standard to what it can mean, correct? Doublevoter, split voter, PM the mod vote, etc, any of those can apply?

I don't like his fixation on the secret double voter. I think it has scum motivation because it's a town thing to talk about and means he's saying words without having to fake reads. I have no idea why a townie would be so fixated on a secret double voter.

That's not an attack on him for being antitown.

[sangres]

but it makes him less likely scum

No, it doesn't.
Are you more likely to be scum because you're a strong player?

[sangres]

fucking really?

you've completely enabled scum to hide in the midst of your shit storm with bert/mara. i am not the one who gets to hold the shitbag of shame in all this so you can take all the little jabs and redirect them at yourself.

I was just trying to challenge Mara on what I felt was a lazy townread

[sangres]

Getting too tired to push shit anymore. I think SMP is a significantly better lynch than Shroom, and the lynch is between those two today. I would be very happy if we lynched SMP, sad if we lynched Shroom. Please don't lynch Shroom.

[sangres]

show of hands - who's willing to vote kdub?

[sangres]

BRO? Would you switch to Kdub?

[sangres]

4 people willing to vote kdub? Who else?

[sangres]

I am absolutely unwilling to move my vote from HS.

And sangres, your effort to derail the HS wagon is total shit and by far the scummiest thing that has happened in this game.

You explain why he shouldn't.

Because he has done nothing to merit continued existence in this game.

And you never addressed your conspicuous and inexplicable absence on the SMP wagon earlier.

Because we weren't scumreading him earlier. He's not our strongest scumread now, but he's a hell of a lot more scummy looking to us than Shroom is. And pushing our stronger scum reads has gone nowhere, but we're still pushing for our strongest scum read lynched in the middle of this compromise effort.

12 hours, and I'm fairly sure every question I have to ask is the following:

Why is Shroom getting lynched over SMP?
Why is Antihero lurking?

Why should SMP be lynched over shroom?

And I am expecting a really compelling reason as to why SMP is suddenly so scummy that he merits a deadline wagon, given the complete absence of any such suggestion in your posting history, which is below.

Spoiler:

So I want SMP dead, and then HS. Also catboi.

Why do you want SMP dead?

We really should be lynching hkc/smp/shroom guaranteed 2 scum in this pool

and your reasons for thinking smp and shroom could be part of a team are?

SMP is becoming a pretty distinct concern.

(such a big concern, I add, that he has not ever received a vote from sangres, including at any point during the SMP wagon).

SMP is a maybe, which could firm up tonight, but I doubt it.

His sitewide activity this week looks pretty sparse. His posts so far are troubling, though.

So forgive me for questioning the motivation and legitimacy of this deadline push.

You have zero credibility questioning anyone's vote changes in this game. You've repeatedly jumped from wagon to wagon with no explanation, and yet with the clear pattern of always moving a large wagon closer to lynch. I described it as a ratchet effect and that's what your votes have accomplished this day.

[sangres]

VOTE: kdub

Very.

[sangres]

No.

There's no reason to give up on a kdub lynch with 4 hours left.

[sangres]

kdub said he has a post incoming.

Why would you want to hammer before he makes the post.

[sangres]

kdub said he has a post incoming.

Why would you want to hammer before he makes the post.

Cause he's fucking scum but NOOOOOOOO you don't want to listen to me

Did you guys not read my post? I asked if he was going to post. This was a good 15 minutes after he said he would have a post incoming...

I think you're used fast-paced games.

15 minutes is not a ridiculously long time to write up a post. Especially when you're at L-1

I spent days at L-1 in the last game we played, writing multiple posts that took way more than 15 minutes each.

This is a different situation, but when a player is at L-1 and has indicated they're going to post, 15 minutes would actually be a pretty damn quick response.

Newbie Queue might be a little different. I'd probably stress not to hammer before I was able to make my post in that environment.

[sangres]

it's possible that they are both town.

Scar would have been the better choice

agree with your first sentence. Still think PhDScar has posted from a town mindset, at least while he was caught up.

sigh

[sangres]

unvote

[sangres]

shit if I'd seen that bluster first I wouldn't have unvoted yet.

[sangres]

I'd rather lynch SMP than shroom. kdub's last couple of posts have really shaken my scumread.

that ship has sailed, I think.

Mara what are you thinking?

every time I leave the laptop and come back I post from the wrong browser.

[sangres]

VOTE: Shroom

[sangres]

Scum is more likely to fake-claim something, though to attempt to veer the wagon off them onto someone else.

That's what we came down to after rereading kdub's posts.

[sangres]

kdub don't make us any sorrier than we already are that we changed our minds about you.

Reviewing the game overnight some of our weaker reads have firmed up. BRO's in solid town territory now.

We're going to start here today.

VOTE: SMP

[sangres]

Just so we're clear, that's a cop inno on BRO.

[sangres]

I really did not like Scar's behavior at the end of yesterday, but his replace-out kinda nullifies a lot of that. Interested in what Muffin has to say.

I don't have strong feelings about SMP based on his play, but I can accept an SMP lynch based on him being a counterwagon to HS/me yesterday, plus just POE since I have a lot of town reads at the moment.

I thought sangres's reason for moving off of me and onto HS yesterday was interesting. I might have some things to say about it later on if the issue arises, but for now, I'll give them a tentative town read based them coming right out and clearing BRO today.

Aegor, why are you voting SMP?

You don't have strong feellings about someone whose contribution to day 1 was 8 one-liiner posts?

[sangres]

You don't have strong feellings about someone whose contribution to day 1 was 8 one-liiner posts?

That's right. Can you really say you have strong feelings about someone who has barely posted (unless you are basing it on meta)?

SMP's claim on its own makes me wary because of the role cop aspect. With a 1v1 with Anti, who I read as town, I'm willing to vote SMP once everyone weighs in and is ready.

You said you could accept an SMP lynch before Antihero claimed he's lying.

damn it

[sangres]

You said you could accept an SMP lynch before Antihero claimed he's lying.

Yes I did. I don't get the point of this comment.

Your post I was responding to made it sound like Antihero's soft claim led to your willlingness to see SMP lynched. That doesn't line up with your earlier post.

[sangres]

You said you could accept an SMP lynch before Antihero claimed he's lying.

Yes I did. I don't get the point of this comment.

Your post I was responding to made it sound like Antihero's soft claim led to your willlingness to see SMP lynched. That doesn't line up with your earlier post.

First of all, I don't agree and think you are nitpicking here. Secondly, even if that really were my intention, what are you trying to suggest about my motivation for doing so? If you think that's scummy, explain my scum motivation here.

It's an oblique edgewise stance you're taking, and that pings pretty damn hard.

I can see you posting this way as scum regardless of SMP's flip. by not coming out so strong that you'd have difficulty walking it back if the momentum shifts a little.

[sangres]

... no he didn't

and why do you think he's a vanilla cop, and not the rolecop he is claiming to be

because he's claiming "vanilla or non-vanilla" results. rolecops get roles. vanilla cops get "vanilla or non-vanilla".

role cops get "vanilla" if they cop vt or goon.

[sangres]

It's an oblique edgewise stance you're taking, and that pings pretty damn hard.

I can see you posting this way as scum regardless of SMP's flip. by not coming out so strong that you'd have difficulty walking it back if the momentum shifts a little.

If your complaint is just about the strength of my words, fine. That's subjective and there isn't anything I can say other than "you're wrong". If your complaint is about my actual stance on SMP, then you still haven't addressed what my possible scum motivation would be.

Who did you come into the game day wanting to push?

[sangres]

There was daytalk in Xenoblade via a mafia encryptor.

[sangres]

I'd say something about green shit but that's your schtick.

[sangres]

mine is very green this game

but that is more of a bad joke i started with nacho while 169 was ongoing because i specifically made the joke in the scum QT there

If we hadn't had a strong town read on PhDScar we would have investigated you last night because lolparanoia.

[sangres]

can we lynch smp already?

Slow down. AJ and Mac haven't posted since the day started.

[sangres]

you still didn't explain why you wasted your investigation on bro

that literally makes no sense

Because BRO can play a very subtle and hard to spot scum game, and he hadn't done anything awesomely town on day 1. And if he's town his analysis should be more valuable than what at least half the player list will put into the thread.

Of all the players in the game we felt like he and muffin are the trickiest to read. Muffin did us the favor of replacing into a slot we already thought was town.

Bro's alignment is our gift to future game days.

[sangres]

was the cop claim serious? i assumed joke

I had planned to just crumb it, hence my first post. Nacho wanted to make it explicit.

[sangres]

why not kdub? you wanted him lynched and then you changed your read but neither was solid

bro was obv town imo

or for god sakes investigate HK or me or even aegor or AJ

so many better people than bro

You are always welcome to stop signing up for games I've /inned.

[sangres]

i think AJ and mac are scum

should i read the first 48 pages to confirm this?

In the early part of day 1 we thought Mac was town. His late day 1 shook that.

AJ yeah. Everything he posts reads a little bit awkward somehow.

Aegor's lolnoreasons trolling on day 1 was pretty disturbing.

I think 2 scum in that bunch. Aegor is probably playing too dont-give-a-fuck to be scum though.