Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 3:35 am

magua wrote:So, literally the situation is "Victor is groupscum" or "Game is over for town."

*shrug* this part is half true~ish

victor declaring V/LA til after deadline and two votes locked on victor means there's 3 votes that are (probably) not going to change before deadline. which pretty much makes this a 1v1 between kagami and victor now

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 4:12 am

kagami wrote:This is not a 1v1 between me and victor

mm. technically not, but for all practical intents and purposes it is. for any other lynch to occur would require the 5 people with active votes to agree on a single other lynch. and scum among the 5 people with active votes are not going to hop on an alternative scum lynch, so any other lynch occurring is basically guaranteed to be a mislynch

ffery wrote:kagami, do you see Magua's freak-out as something coming from scum?

is this referring to his reaction to varsoon's card?

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 5:18 am

ffery wrote:Yes

is that why you're unsure if he's scum? meh. could see that panic coming from scum or town, really.

what's your current read on victor, btw?

magua wrote:Because, again, it doesn't fucking matter if vezok and Varsoon don't do it, so even if you're the final Townie it don't make a goddamn bit of difference without the other two

that's all the more reason to be wanting to do more persuading and less whining then, no?

coz what you're doing right now is essentially "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah people don't agree with me, i don't like that, i'm gonna whine and hope they change their minds on their own"

magua wrote:zMuffinMan doing the math now, rather, than, oh, I dunno, when I or Kagami voted Vincent is super low

? i made a single post after kagami voted victor prior to the site crash (saying i'd be reading in a bit. which apparently is a recipe for crashing the site)

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 5:27 am

*shrug*

i'd be fine with no lynch happening tbh

no one else seemed to want it when i suggested it at some point earlier today

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 5:32 am

i think nacho said no and ffery said she was worried about scum killing town if we no lynch and nobody else really commented on it

zMuffinMan · Fri May 30, 2014 5:32 am

kagami wrote:I generally like magua's posting since then

er... what specifically?

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 5:09 am

yeah. well. i don't think a magua lynch is going to happen in the next 3 hours

i'll be back in an hour and a bit then prob around til deadline

i would still prefer a victor lynch to kagami (though i don't even know if there's going to be enough people around who are willing to lynch victor before deadline) but i wouldn't be terribly sad if no lynch happened

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 7:50 am

hello

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 7:50 am

i made it. 10 mins to spare. i'm awesome.

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 7:54 am

nacho wrote:whatever way I look at it, I don't think Victor is going to end up in my townreads

this is close to my own thinking on the matter

even if i didn't think he was scum for other reasons, he's most likely scum by poe

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 7:54 am

though that wooooo makes me :<

zMuffinMan · Sat May 31, 2014 8:19 am

nacho wrote:i want to call you town

don't lie to me, nacho

you never want to call me town

zMuffinMan · Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:15 pm

Spoiler:

zMuffinMan · Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:20 pm

fakegod wrote:The setup may have been favoring them

i actually thought this game was rather town-sided, albeit requiring town to lynch a scum player for that to be the case

if magua-slot had been lynched at any point prior to N2 it would have been an uphill battle all game, or if town had used their roles a bit differently (since the downside to getting double kills each night was magua-slot being completley defenseless to vig/investigations/roleblocks/etc)

roles look cool. i woulda liked to roll town this game.

zMuffinMan · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:26 am

kagami wrote:I don't think town had a lot of power. Much of what we had was powerful on paper, but wildly anti-town given that the scum had two godfathers (a role that I don't think should ever be seen outside of open setups).

i think this is very wrong

magua's role was a double-edged sword. it could be extremely powerful IF he never drew night actions (which just so happened to be the case this game) but there were multiple ways he could have been caught (apart from the cops, a rolecop on him woulda doomed him, he could have been vig-killed, roleblocked, etc)

my role was very limited in use and only became useful near mylo/lylo, which means i needed to live that long to make it useful

and varsoon was just a glorified godfather with no other real abilities, and it was just pure luck that he was sakura's investigation target, because if sakura had investigated town D1, you woulda had a town player in varsoon's "conftown" position (or if she'd investigated me, she woulda got no result or we'd have been forced to kill her) and him having a relatively useless role (or at least no useful active abilities)

but what makes this town-sided isn't so much that your abilities countered ours or anything... it's the fact that there were so many goddamn ICs (and it took so much mist to counter this) <- you had an actual IC (with pretty powerful abilities), masons (with extremely powerful abilities - and yes, they don't flip masons, but there were so many other ways they could have confirmed themselves as masons if not outright claiming it), sakura was basically an IC (who, lucky for us, got vig killed), not really sure how anyone could think bork was scum after the whole mokou thing (and i really dunno why fakegod included that), bitmap was never going to be lynched after claiming. that's 6 people who could have formed a town block at any point and mowed down the scum team if they played it well. not including stuff like a human-only-vig yuyuko, miller claim, double-voter who gets increasingly powerful with time etc etc stuff which was more likely town than scum to any sane person :/

*shrug*

if roles had been used in a slightly different way, if people had stepped back and thought about things differently, this game could have easily been a town win through sheer setup gaming. i know it can be dangerous to play the setup spec game sometimes, but this one seemed rather obvious and i was surprised so many people didn't see obvious things.

/rant

zMuffinMan · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:36 am

also fakegod

if you run this sort of setup again, try to give scum something they could reasonably claim as a town ability. like the mokou thing, or the human-only-vig thing, or something, so that the setup can't be broken through stuff like that. we didn't _really_ have anything like that

it really didn't end up mattering here, but it could in the next game

(if i were town here, i woulda been a lot more forceful about a mass claim, or at least a claim of core abilities, role names, etc)

zMuffinMan · Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:46 am

kagami wrote:You're underestimating the power of getting an investigation on a godfather

no, i'm not. everyone else was over-valuing that and discarding play because of it. i never treat an inno like it means anything unless there is a reason it should

i mean, what exactly did you expect scum was going to have to counter town's power in this game?