Mini 1617 - Mafia with a Twist 2 (It's Over!)

[Mathdino]

Hahahaha, I'm down with that. That's probably why everyone on MS calls me Dino.

VOTE: Honey bee because dinosaurs eat honey bees. I think. I mean they could.

Just in case though, Imma UNVOTE: Honey bee and
VOTE: Thesp[/vote ] because bastard mod.

Breaking vote tag here for the benefit of the votecounter - vote for "Thesp" has been ignored, as Thesp is not a player nor votable in this game.

[Mathdino]

Cool, so Thesp isn't Tar.

so I think mathdino's last post was pretty nervous jokey scum-y

agree or disagree?

Nope, legit found it funny that this is why MS is the first site to call me almost exclusively Dino. I thought people were just being standoffish . I'm still getting mixed up when people say 'mathcam'.

Anyway I'm getting slight scummy vibes from STD (for real not joke) with the need to actually point out "Gonna start this game like I did last game" and the responses to the voting, albeit semi-sarcastic. Best/only read I have atm. Otherwise Reck and UT seem town.

EDIT: Okay that was written before post 32. I have no idea what STD's game is; I'm beginning to think he's trying to be scummy. Those last 5 posts seem a bit over-the-top weird.

[Mathdino]

Yeah, STD, your response is dismissive enough for me to feel comfortable on this:
VOTE: Save the Dragons

Weird=scum when it looks like you're not acting naturally.

ika, in the event that there are PRs, you're not helping at all. And even if we were all VT, how's that info help us any?

FoS: you

Oh, and townread on Honey bee atm.

Edit: I'll unvote before we get an early lynch if it comes to that, STD, but as it is, you're making it worse.

[Mathdino]

Crap, that was L-2, sorry. Overestimated game size.

UNVOTE: STD

HoS: STD

[Mathdino]

-opertusictic vote hopping
-not reading page one on knowing THERE ARE NO PRs
-i want to hear better justification on "how im not helping"

i have played the first one where i was scum so i know this game. also given the fact last game we had "everyone became vig" i would assume its something like this so i wanted to sort that out instead of havign everyone crossfire.

if you have a better idea for plannign for the twist go right ahead

I'll go through this chronologically.
1. I've voted for one person outside RVS so far, and I got off because I don't want to run someone to L-1 this early. He's my strongest suspicion though and I'm not voting anyone else as long as that stands. Show me the opertusicsm; I cast suspicion on him, he responded poorly, so I voted him.
2. Quote the part. It says 0-13 people got the VT role, not that PRs don't exist. Quote and I'll drop it.
3. I'm referring to the rolecall: Either entire town is VT or there are PRs. If the former, then that doesn't really help us, just means the scum doesn't have to hunt for em. If the latter, then mass rolecall at the beginning of the day is idiotic. If you're right, you're not making our lives worse, but it's still not helping.
4. I read the first game before I even signed up for this, and I don't think you can just assume it'll be the same. The entire point of a twist is that you can't really plan for it, so no, I don't have any ideas, let's scumhunt instead of trying to break a closed setup. You and I would be good friends in an open.

Also, your vote is borderline OMGUS just because you don't think my points on you are valid. Where's the scum motivation there?

Edit: I think I understand MTD's vote, but Nati, what's your reasoning on HB?

[Mathdino]

Not to speak for MTD, but HI's vote post is basically devoid of content so it's basically just wagoning.

Another example: Feirei doesn't factcheck ika's 'reasoning'. Blatant sheeping.

ika moving to townread, Feirei and HI null to scum. Sorry for double post.

[Mathdino]

Discussion fodder: In light of the happenings of "Mafia with a Twist 1," is there any benefit to no-lynch on Day 1 to see if there's a surprise game mechanic?

Sure, I'd be down for NL if my scumreads aren't as strong by the end of the day.

Why did you townread me dino?

Because your vote post seems townish and reasonable and not at all like sheeping.

1. I've voted for one person outside RVS so far, and I got off because I don't want to run someone to L-1 this early. He's my strongest suspicion though and I'm not voting anyone else as long as that stands. Show me the opertusicsm; I cast suspicion on him, he responded poorly, so I voted him.

your vote was l-2, not l-1, your being catus with your vote if yous suepct them vote them it doesnt matter if hes lynched early or not if hes scum no?

2. Quote the part. It says 0-13 people got the VT role, not that PRs don't exist. Quote and I'll drop it.

news flash its not VT its "townie" by that it implies that your a townie or your not

3. I'm referring to the rolecall: Either entire town is VT or there are PRs. If the former, then that doesn't really help us, just means the scum doesn't have to hunt for em. If the latter, then mass rolecall at the beginning of the day is idiotic. If you're right, you're not making our lives worse, but it's still not helping.

you already implied you are not townie nor pr with this and all you are doing is WIFOMing bs

4. I read the first game before I even signed up for this, and I don't think you can just assume it'll be the same. The entire point of a twist is that you can't really plan for it, so no, I don't have any ideas, let's scumhunt instead of trying to break a closed setup. You and I would be good friends in an open.

no the point is to speculate on whatit might be. if we can plan for it in advance we can break it. your attemt to try to stop my dicussion/scum hunting is noticed though

Also, your vote is borderline OMGUS just because you don't think my points on you are valid. Where's the scum motivation there?

your reasoning for fosing me is off you asking me a question

answers in bold

pedit: i would be fine with no lynch and if we all get abilites we target below (with bottom targeting top)[/quote]
1. Yes, I'm being cautious with my vote. Discussion is beneficial for the town and even if I got a PM from the mod saying he's scum, I'd still want to talk about other people before lynching him this early. I'll gladly hammer the guy if it comes to that in a few RL days.
2. Don't second-guess the mod. Seriously, speaking as someone who loves setup spec, it doesn't work in a closed game advertised as BM with a twist.
3. That's because I'm being careful not to claim unless I have to.
4. I'm trying to shut down setup spec because it has a tendency of helping scum in BM games. I'm advocating scumhunting, read what I said.
5. That's just not true; if you're not gonna read your suspects' posts and defence then don't bother responding.
And on the 'if we all get abilities', what if we all get different abilities? That's a terrible idea if the mod distributes protects, roleblocks, investigations, and kills at the same time. Stop trying to break the twist. Furthermore, outlining a general plan for town for a twist we have no idea about, helps the scum more than town. Also, if we all get vigs, then we all die if we do that.

Klazam, policy lynch isn't helpful; we have examples of scumminess already and I honestly don't think ika has a scum motivation.
ika, policy lynch isn't a scumtell. And on your last post, you literally used 3 logical fallacies in 4 sentences. Stop tunneling people who are offending you and start reading and scumhunting.

[Mathdino]

Actually, I just realised, I'd vote ika over NL if it seems like he'll be a liability tonight.

Also, I had terrible formatting, I was responding to this post, future ISOers.

Edit: Who here has a good handle on STD's town and scum metas? I looked at his wiki and all I've got is he's infinitely better at playing town than scum, which kind of increases my suspicions.

[Mathdino]

@ika: Okay, I'm just gonna drop this. But no one's gonna listen to you if you don't have any reads on people; setup spec is always secondary to scumhunting.
Who do you think is scummy, other than me? Thoughts on the STD wagon?
@STD: Yeah obviously the twist won't be "secret regular game", but I find it hard to believe he'll do the exact same gimmick as last time. It could be anything, and we don't even know if everyone's VT yet. People are more likely to claim if they have a VT claim, and as such

stop claiming VT just in case, it gives mafia a possible PoE analysis

.

Edit: WIFOM, ika, WIFOM.
Edit2: ika, answer the questions and stop ignoring people. I will absolutely PL you over a NL if you just start ignoring people and focusing on faulty gamebreaking. You don't want that to become a "I will lynch you because you're scummy" though.
Edit3: HB, you just became part of the problem from my POV .

[Mathdino]

klazam legit question: what color is your role pm?

Mod, is this legal?

ika, I'm asking you the same questions now. Hiding info about yourself for no reason is anti-town and a terrible defence. Questions:
What do you mean by being the "13th townie"?
Can you coherently show how I'm WIFOMing things? My point was just that you can't say "If I was scum, I'd be voting this guy" because that's exactly what scum would want us to think.
What's your read on STD?
Are you going to be suspicious of everyone who is suspicious of you?

HoS: ika

for not working with us.

Edit: IKA. We're past RVS/RQS now! Answer other people's questions and we'll answer yours; by your own logic, if you're trying to lynch me, I have no reason to answer that.
Also IIRC RQS helps scum more than town and is only useful for getting discussion going.

[Mathdino]

pedit: Uh...there's a huge difference between your play and HI's right now.

Hi's vote was you are acting weird.
My vote was you are acting nervous.

dino thinks hi's vote is contentless.
dino thinks my 3 posts beforehand were sheepless and townie.

There seems to be a discrepancy no?

You literally just pointed out why I have a townread on you and scum on HI.
To go semantic, HI copied the adjective other people used, while you added something new, so you probably took more time reading his posts.
I like how I'm explaining my townread to you, haha. You're only strengthening it, man.

Edit: Responding to ika later. HB, what about my read suggests to you that I'm scum?

[Mathdino]

Actually screw it, ika's getting on my nerves, not responding to that. Mafia's a social game, ika; you can't lynch people alone and telling everyone you're trolling gets you 0 points.

I literally just searched 'RQS' on the wiki to find this. And here's the wiki page for it. We already have things to discuss, no one's random voting. Your questions are pointless. Ours are personalised.

[Mathdino]

Actually reck nor ut said why. hi said it was weird and ut echoed that.

The way you're throwing reads around is what bothers me, especially when you call me town (because my alignment is usually not obvious). It makes me feel like you know and are fitting your reads to what benefits you rather than actually figuring them out. And you singling out hi over anyone else on that not thoroughly justified wagon rubs me wrong.

Peedit: Ika's is just trolling. He knows there's no point.

UT has other material that leans town to me. Reckoner's vote on STD seems RVS.

...why do you keep arguing with me on my townread. Of the minimal info I had to go on when it came to you and HI, you added something to the discussion while he did not. Therefore, townread on you, while he seems sheepy. And brother, if your alignment isn't obvious when you're town, you're just dissing yourself. And hang on, you're saying that (assuming you're town) because I'm right about you being town, that means I know already? Hell I could've picked a totally random person to read as town and I'd have a good chance of being right.

I'm pretty transparent as town; someone told me read lists with reasons were bad (gives a roadmap for scum) so I stopped doing that. Instead, now I just say what I think of people when it comes to me. What about my reads benefits me, do you think? Even if there was an actual discrepancy, it'd only show I'm scummy if you think you and HI are on different teams. Do you think HI is scum?

[Mathdino]

Reck's and STD's interactions make me think they have the same alignment, and STD's slowly starting to lean town (still awaiting meta analysis from anyone, I don't know anyone here).

Nati, you never gave reasoning for your vote, and the majority of your last post was itself setup spec. Which wouldn't be a problem if you showed your scumhunting reasoning rather than saying we should scumhunt, haha.

Slight FoS: you

Hmm, I feel like scum-Feirei would backpedal instead of not even answering the question, but then again, that can be WIFOMed. Very unsure on that read atm.

Still need more posts from a few people. And by the way, the way I see it, the more scum suspects I have, the townier everyone else is, which is why I'm fine with throwing around townreads.

[Mathdino]

Okay, HI, your defence is dismissive and the townbloc suspicions are valid. That said,

VOTE: ika

For pissing me off. He has successfully voted every single person who displayed any >0 intent of voting him, while completely ignoring people's questions. HI was funny. ika is spamming the thread and holding things up.
Cut the 'trolling', if you want to troll, go to 4chan.

[Mathdino]

Yeah having read a few of ika's games I'm gonna have to ask Klazam to consider PLing him again. The one I skimmed said he apparently hammered two townies because he likes hammering and spamming the page. He got lynched the day before (a lost) LyLo after ASKING people to mislynch him.

To paraphrase a couple things people said that game, "If ika's town, we already lost" and "I'm not going to lose to a guy who plays like a retard, rolls scum, and manages to win from it". ika's practically unreadable, so unless we want to waste unknown PR abilities on him, I don't want him in the game by the time LyLo rolls around.

Or he could replace out. Hey ika, wanna break another rule trying to setup spec?

[Mathdino]

Ika hammering a guy 4 posts after L-1
Ika not caring
"Get someone to L-1 and I will hammer them" (he hammers on the next page)
"I find joy in being the one who [hammers]"
"I insist my own mislynch"

This ISO is glorious. Very short. Highly recommended skim.

Aaaand I just wasted 15 mins on meta. Gonna look over some ISOs now.

@Honey bee: Were you gonna comment on my reads? I was waiting for that before I responded to your post.

Edit: UT, he has the ability to become better, but that's 2 completed games where he says he always wants the hammer and displays willingness to self hammer.
He has the ability but he doesn't give a fuck about the game.

[Mathdino]

Alright, I trust other-math enough to drop the STD case for now, and he has been contributing, soooo... Scumminess later on from him will be met with amplified suspicion though.

Hah, decided to ISO HI a few seconds after he posted. Brother, if you want me to vote for who I think is scum, I'd be voting you. I don't think HI wants to be on this wagon for a reason. Otherwise, scumread on him stays.

Still not sure what to make of Fei. The hypocrisy on "you don't thoroughly read" is funny but not really scummy. Gonna shelf this as well until I get more material.

Otherwise, ISOs aren't changing my thoughts much. It occurred to me that if ika flips scum, Klazam will be at the top of my townreads since I don't think scum would bus his partner right off the bat. I'm with STD on the townread on Reck's first page posts, can't say much about the rest. mathcam's being pro-town, can't say I'm getting a townread yet but pro-town's helpful enough. Need more material from MTD, Nati, Wolfy, and Reck; I'm confident at least one scum is lurking (also statistically likely) but I'm not gonna crack down on lurkers until a few RL days.

Anyway, @Hostile Intent, it's a little of both. I can't identify differences between scum-ika and town-ika due to the rampant trolling, so if he's scum and we leave his trolling alone, we're screwed. And if he's town and survives to LyLo (I'm guessing scum won't shoot him), we're absolutely 100% (okay more like 99%) going to lose. I don't want him around to the point where people want to lynch him because he hammered 2 more townies.
Also he's not answering questions and is actively working against people trying to talk to him, so that's scummy in itself.

[Mathdino]

Ambiguity check, should've said "I think HI doesn't want to be on this wagon for a reason that's not disdain for PLs"

[Mathdino]

Wouldn't it make more sense for scum to wait until ika acts like a dumbass and THEN bus him? Klazam's voting patterns seem pretty natural.

[Mathdino]

Ah, okay, fair enough.

And mostly because STD's gotten better and mathcam says he's not acting consistent with his scum meta. Not saying he's town, but I'm willing to wait til D2 to look over him again. HI is a better candidate, and ika needs to go IMO.

[Mathdino]

Better just because I find continued scummy play scummier than early-game weirdness.

Okay, I just read STD's and HI's ISOs together and I'll concede, I think I thought STD was contributing more than he was. I can see an STD/HI scumteam with HI bussing and I'm 80% sure at least one of them is scum (also there's >50% chance statistically, so take that part with a grain of salt, haha). However, the point above still stands on wanting to lynch HI first; we have his sheeping, his weak defence (which he criticised STD for), and trying to form a townbloc against STD. He's clarified his own motivations even less than STD did.

Like I said, if I get more scumvibes from STD, I'll absolutely jump the mofo. Personally I find HI the greater of two evils though.

@Feirei: You forgot the part where ika is refusing to work with anyone, tried to start RQS, uses setup spec to distract from scumhunting, and proceeds to OMGUS everyone when called out on it.
The only reason it's not as scummy as when someone else does it is because his meta is a troll. Is that a valid excuse to keep him around to hammer people? His very presence in the game helps scum organise quickhammers.

Edit: Crap, wrote all that after #223. Responding to everything below that in a sec.

[Mathdino]

better how?

look, you can catch scum in the first few pages. him acting less scummy NOW does not change the nervy scumminess from the very beginning of the game

Need to remember to quote more. This is what I was referring to in my last post.

Ugh, my read on STD is changing faster than a compass on the LOST island. I think I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the 'enthusiasm' for now. Emphasis on 'for now'.

@STD: Do you think ika is lynchworthy?
brb reading Nati's ISO in game 1 to confirm meta.
@Nati: Self-enforced lurking isn't appreciated.
@Feirei: lol'd

[Mathdino]

Your deflection skills are poor, sir.

Yeah STD, deflect better. Take a page from HI's book

HI, read this. You didn't just ask a question, you set yourself up to buddy/sheep 2 very experienced players. Given that I think UT and Reck lean town, it looks like pre-scum-town buddying to me.

If you're town, you should know you're better off thinking for yourself.

Edit: Okaaay so we're all split.

Wolfy, Natirasha, Honey bee

, thoughts on the 3 main wagons? It seems almost certain there's at least one scum among those 3.
Edit2: ika, IIoA. Statistically it's almost certain that you're right. Who's the scum pushing it, and who's the scum stopping it?
And guys, seriously, it's not JUST policy.

[Mathdino]

ika, why should we not vote you? Give us one throng reason. Other than "I'm town".

[Mathdino]

A. I don't even
B. It absolutely gets info based on interactions.
C. Uh, you asked people to lynch you multiple times and got mislynched for it. As scum, you're better lategame, so I very much would prefer not to let that happen.
D. Bad reason, you could both be scum. And your case on STD SUCKS. A LOT. WORSE THAN ROMNEY'S CAMPAIGNING.
E. Relies on A.

[Mathdino]

And I thought your reasons might have more thrength. A, C, and E rely on you being town, B is wrong because NL and RL are the only things that give no info, and D relies on a bad case.

Respond to our reasons for voting you.
Argue for your vote on STD.

[Mathdino]

mathcam, check this out.

I was just about to comment on the self meta. ika, you've still answered none of the questions that Klazam and I have asked you, and that's a major part of our case on you. That was the other thing I was going for when I asked you to give us a reason not to lynch you. More thoughts coming in a sec, just thought y'all'd want to see that link.

[Mathdino]

And that kind of response, my good friend, is precisely why I choose to discredit you. I've given you MULTIPLE outs here, but you're only digging the hole deeper. Self meta? Really? Who's to say you're not, as scum, coming up with terrible cases on the dude with the largest wagon just to show you're town?

Show us you can be valuable. Defend against and refute what I said about you. Actually convince people that your reads are justified. TALK to us instead of assuming we can't be swayed. UT got me to change my null-town read on STD. I'm not a tunneler.

You've done nothing so far to suggest that I shouldn't vote you though.

[Mathdino]

1) exactly why i really have no motive to defend myself if thats all your going to say
2) and i am but agian "OH HERR DURR YOU MIGHT NOT BE TOWN ITS ALL WIFOMMY"
3) this is bastardized game, so i woudl say thats invalid
4) its a case though no? look though all of my games and tell me if any of them were good.

reasons for being vote : policy
how the crap am i suppose to argue with it?
reasong for voting STD: already stated
i really dont have much other to say about it, why should i argue with soemone who is jsut most likely going to ignore it?

Idk why I'm doing this. Sorry for spamming a bit.
1. Your defence is either bad or nonexistent, can't figure out which. Anything that relies on "My role PM said I'm town" is a bad defence or not one at all.
2. You have no idea how WIFOM works, do you? "I'm town" is either 0th or 1st level deception: Either you're just being honest, or you're scum lying. There's no reason you'd want to make it look like you're scum lying about it. I'm asking you to prove that you're useful and acting in pro-town interests, not to analyse your own posts and point out how only a townie would say that.
3. Uh, BM games don't discount interactive tells...
4. And here's the issue which I outlined above: Your cases suck. But I'm not going to let a possible scum-you live because you're consistently a bad player; that's idiotic and provides motivation for you to keep being bad.

Reasons for being vote: Not policy anymore.
You're supposed to argue with it by addressing my concerns.
Reasons for voting STD: By your own logic, you should cite examples of that 'tell' that you came up with. Go find a place where actual scum told people "I'm going to kill you IRL", and convince people to work with you.
Bro, here's how you arguing with me and Klazam works: We point out you being anti-town and not answering questions. You decide to ignore us because we're trying to lynch you. We try to lynch you because you ignore us.

Do you not understand that cycle? Do you not understand that you have the burden of breaking that cycle? You took the time to answer questions trollily, so you're basically deciding not to work with us out of spite. That is why I'm fine with lynching you.

Edit: Above was written before post #303, may or may not respond in a sec.

[Mathdino]

The problem with self-meta is that the very fact that you're aware of your meta discounts anything you say about it. It's not that hard to change said meta or to play exactly to what you say your town meta is.

I want to discredit you because you deserve it. You seem to assume I'm just doing this for kicks or tunneling.

I'm still kind of confused on the whole 'reachout' thing, but I'm not going to take just any reason you give at face value. If it's bad, I'm going to vote you. If it's good, I'm going to listen to you and maybe change my mind.
It was bad.

[Mathdino]

fucking h. ika is towm. stop being a tunnelfuck.

What's funny is I was real close to dropping it until the self-meta thing. Regardless, your argument for him being town is a gutread and the fact that he's being consistent with town meta (which we just established he's aware of). From what I read, his scum meta is incredibly similar to town meta, and he's a liability to town regardless.

Might as well ask your input. You haven't talked about STD all game, what're your thoughts on his wagon? Whatcha think of Klazam? Whatcha think of UT?

[Mathdino]

Thanks for the STD thoughts, Nati. You still haven't said why HB is scum, so ofc no one wants to lynch him. Pretty sure no one wants to vote Feirei atm either.

ika, I linked everyone to your ISO on Binding of Isaac already, so that's what I'm referring to. I'm not confident on analysing your meta from a hear ago, so I guess (sigh) I have more games to read.

[Mathdino]

Then by process of elimination, 3 out of STD, HB, mathcam, and our two lurkers MTD (who voted you) and Wolfy are scum.

That's a few too many definite townreads for my comfort, considering it doesn't look like Wolfy is lurking on purpose. With the exception of STD, you have a townread on every active player.

Granted, could just be trouble scumhunting. Can you explain a few of the townreads?

Edit: whatchoo trippin, nati

[Mathdino]

Just checked Reck's ISO, forgot to say: Congrats, man! Anyway, can I assume STD is your strongest scumread (though as you said not particularly strong)?

Anyway, if HI flips scum, Nati's the token busser, I'm 66% sure of this.

By my count, an ika lynch will be impossible today, so

@mathcam, Klazam,

I don't think there's much point to this. Who else are your suspects? If ika quickhammers today though, I beg y'all to lynch him D2.
UNVOTE: ika
I think I'm confident enough to put HI at L-2 rn. He's not responding very well under pressure. HOWEVER I'd recommend not putting him at L-1 yet, just in case.
VOTE: Hostile Intent

On the bright side, we already have a claim, so no need for that song and dance.

[Mathdino]

Cool game guys, that was one of my most interesting D1s. I think had mafia gone for more obvious lynch targets in their ballot they might've had more of a chance. And yeah STD, I'll take partial responsibility for putting him at L-2. This, folks, is why I'm afraid of doing that