Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Did you know that Quakers refer to each other as friends? Yep. You better prepare yourselves, because the next few nuggets are going to also contains snippets from Wikipedia.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-TellTaleHeart (L-6)
DukeC-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie (L-5)
The Undertaker-
Newbie-
Malakittens-
SilverWolf-
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-blindmewithscience (L-6)
VictorDeAngelo-mathdino, acryon, Silverwolf (L-4)
Mathdino-Wisdom (L-6)
blindmewithscience-
acryon-malakittens (L-6)

not voting-DukeC, wgeurts, The Undertaker, Not_Mafia,

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.

(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

Sure enough while you guys were clubbing on the dancefloor someone did indeed start a Ballroom Blitz. Lot's of people got drinks spilled on them and now people stink like they're covered in alchohol. What a bummer. But hey let's go check out a movie!!! You all head to see Guardians Of The Galaxy!

[wgeurts]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

vote: wgeurts

Yeah, sketchy reasoning I forsaw umm... before I actually voted him.
I must be a psychic or something to see the future, yeah psychic scum. Y'all gonna die.

[wgeurts]

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

[wgeurts]

God, those phone typos...

[Newbie]

Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?

Not good.

What are you going to do about that?

Vote you as this is not sitting well with me.
VOTE: Wisdom

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

I'm not, it's all a reaction test. For one you took it well by labeling me as newb and moving on. This is slightly town from you as you could have jumped on my BS reasons.
Anyway, there's nothing to gain here.
UNVOTE: Wisdom

With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

vote: wgeurts

Yeah, sketchy reasoning I forsaw umm... before I actually voted him.
I must be a psychic or something to see the future, yeah psychic scum. Y'all gonna die.

I'm talking about the sketchy reasons you were calling BS.

[TellTaleHeart]

@TTH: My Wisdom townread comes from his early game, with the explicit willingness to wagon and get out of RVS. And I said that NM was ACTING town, not that I got a townread off him. Essentially, he gets points for helping with discussion but that's just "we should keep him around" points, not "he's town" points.
Honestly, I think you're fitting the evidence to the conclusion. Everything you said is more indicative of playstyle than scumminess, and IMO the both of them are acting in pro-town interests.
That strikes me as a little odd tbh, makes me think you're coming up with reasons to suspect them, but I won't FoS you for what I consider faulty reasoning right now.

What, you think you're going to hurt my feelings if you FoS me? You're not.

All the reasons you just said are easily faked by scum players worth their weight in salt, especially with join dates like Wisdom's and NM's. I guessing that by now, Wisdom and NM aren't complete scrubs as scum. I haven't been around long myself, but I've played a newbie game and the SE's were both scum and dropped plenty of fake "towntells." I'm not as impressed as you are.

As for philosophy, I approach the game differently than most people here do. I use much the same strategy in forum mafia as I do in RL mafia: I observe how the individual fits in (or doesn't fit in) with group dynamics and build reads on that. In RL mafia, I find that scum tend to play conservatively especially at the beginning of the day before they know what kind of town dynamics they should conform to. I certainly do as scum; it's the optimal play and they win most of the time by doing so. I'm not very good at the whole "question and answer" thing that seems to be popular on this site because 1) I don't think I ask the right questions and 2) I'm not competent enough to do anything with the answers I get. So, I watch other people's modes of logic and try to fill in blanks.

@TTH
I don't appreciate how you talk about me and N_M in the third person instead of trying to engage either of us. Do you care about hearing a defense to your accusations, or would you just like to get others to vote with you?

Then I don't think we're going to get along.
I don't care for either of the things you just mentioned. I could blandly ask you if or why you suspect Victor, but you'll either 1) give me your reasoning if you're town or 2) make something up if you're scum. I'm not good enough at this game to be able to tell the difference and my read on you is likely to evolve based on stuff that happens down the road anyway. I guess I just like to see natural reactions and exchanges instead of having to force them.
Also, if others voted with me at this stage, I would be kind of suspicious since all the stuff I explained makes sense in my head, but I don't necessarily expect it to make sense to other people. Because it probably doesn't.

[wgeurts]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

[wgeurts]

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

[wgeurts]

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

[wgeurts]

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

[SilverWolf]

Well, wgeurts reaction to the pressure and Newbie's vote seem newb-town to me.

Newbie could of made a newb-town or newb-scum move there by making an opportunistic vote like that.

So far, I'm just going to watch this interaction and make a note of it. Dropping FoS on wgeurts. FoS on Newbie

[acryon]

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

While I'm usually the first to say that I hate meta, specifically with experienced players, I think it could actually be somewhat beneficial in the context of Newbie. Additionally, there is both scum and town-motivation to provide the meta in that spot, so it is definitely a null.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Let's be honest here. If your intent with that vote was to get us out of RVS, then why did you almost immediately back down and unvote before much of anything even came of it?

[Newbie]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

I'm looking at the fact that you used it as crutch to unvote and clear someone's observation of it as "something a townie would do."

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

You actually stand out the most to me which is why I went after you. I was suspicious of VD's sudden questioning of mathdino for asking about my playstyle, but VD's responses (which you can read down below) satisfied me.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

You missed the more obvious answer.

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?

Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.

I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?

Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.

But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.

Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Did I miss a question or something?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.

Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.

Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?

No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.

What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.

[wgeurts]

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

I'm looking at the fact that you used it as crutch to unvote and clear someone's observation of it as "something a townie would do."

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

You actually stand out the most to me which is why I went after you. I was suspicious of VD's sudden questioning of mathdino for asking about my playstyle, but VD's responses (which you can read down below) satisfied me.

Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.

You missed the more obvious answer.

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

It completely depends on intent and outcome. I think Mathdino's intent was to establish a play-style for Newbie which he could compare to Newbie's play as the game goes on, so as to avoid writing off Newbie's actions as newb-scum or newb-town. This is a good intent and a favorable outcome for town, as it potentially helps us avoid a mislynch based on bad information. I'm not sure what your intent was, but the outcome for town from your question is that he answers exactly as he did, but then others may avoid those types of questions in fear of being scrutinized, which is overall a negative for town. Not that I think your question carried the kind of weight to make an impact quite like that, but I do think it discourages certain forms of questioning.

That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon. I highly doubt that me asking a question about why someone wanted meta will have others quaking in their boots to question for meta. And this doesn't really answer why you couldn't just wait to see how Mathdino responded.

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible?

Lots. The question was open ended and I even got a interesting reaction off Acryon to boot. I'm mostly curious as to why Newbie's meta was more valuable to you than others.

I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting?

Fun fact, I often ask question I don't know the answer to.

I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, which

tends

to be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?

Why not let him answer for himself?

And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?

Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.

I didn't question why he wanted information, I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference.

Also, I have new person I want wagon.

VOTE: wgeurts

Everyone get aboard.

Why?

It leads to a party where there's Jelly and ice cream - want some?

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it.

But why the need to state it's a reaction test. I mean everyone went around labelling votes (reaction test) or (not reaction test) then it would be just silly.

Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Did I miss a question or something?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.

Huh, I thought there was something specific about 55. You don't really need to specifically mention just to say I saw but I don't comment.

Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

Questioning is scumhunting, and I have my methods.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such?

No, not really. If you want to give reasons, you give reasons.

What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

If someone does something that strikes me as unusual or off then I will question it. It helps get games moving.

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?
Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

[Mathdino]

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

[wgeurts]

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

[Newbie]

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?

Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

I actually quoted the things that you said which I didn't like and explained why I'm voting you, so how exactly am I using other people's reasoning?

I just think you tried to look overly townish by putting on a show of disliking Wisdom's random voting, but you didn't expect Wisdom to reply back the way that he did. You voted him because it would look odd to back down and used the RVS plus some dodgy reaction fishing excuse. What's really weird is that you took your vote off of Wisdom before he could have any real reaction towards it.

[wgeurts]

You went after me by instantly voting using other peoples reasons being discussed at that very moment?

Riiiiggghhht.
Also why isn't it possible that what I'm saying is true? You're saying that I used it as a crutch, what makes you think it's fake?

I actually quoted the things that you said which I didn't like and explained why I'm voting you, so how exactly am I using other people's reasoning?

I just think you tried to look overly townish by putting on a show of disliking Wisdom's random voting, but you didn't expect Wisdom to reply back the way that he did. You voted him because it would look odd to back down and used the RVS plus some dodgy reaction fishing excuse. What's really weird is that you took your vote off of Wisdom before he could have any real reaction towards it.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom RV'ed and I took my chance.

[wgeurts]

Also, woohoo you quoted my posts. So what?
You used the same reasons being discussed at the time.

[wgeurts]

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.

That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?

Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.

The fact we did left RVS does not explain why you had to unvote me though. You could keep pressuring me until you found something telling either way, however small. Why not interested in that?

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.

I don't know, maybe you would get something telling off me. Or maybe you would get other people sheep you and vote me and depending on their reasoning you could get info on them. Unvoting on the other hand doesn't help in any way.

All for you newbie; the so hard to find discussion of the reasons you claimed to have created.

[wgeurts]

There was also some with acro

[Newbie]

Wisdom RV'ed and

I took my chance

.

And that's exactly what I think happened. I think you took the whole thing as a "Look, everyone. I'm doing such a townie thing and showing that I don't like random votes." type situation. It's the way that you first replied to Wisdom after his random votes is what really pings me.

Also, woohoo you quoted my posts. So what?
You used the same reasons being discussed at the time.

Maybe the stuff you did was just found universally scummy, so I'm bound to use the same reasons as other people.

[Newbie]

You do realise sometimes people let stuff slip easier if they think they're safe?
Honestly the vote on you was based of little reasoning so the unvote was as well. I don't have any explicit reasoning fro doing so.

All for you newbie; the so hard to find discussion of the reasons you claimed to have created.

I think your reasons for unvoting Wisdom are a bluff. I've already stated that.

[Newbie]

To further elaborate on my point, if you had just said that you don't like randomly voting, then fine. It's the fact that you replied to Wisdom asking why he keeps voting and unvoting. It seemed unnecessary. Haven't you played/lurked mafia games on here before and saw that people here usually do stuff like that right when the game begins?