Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[wgeurts]

I'll explain my thoughts tommorow.

[FinnLaw]

Wgeurts un-vote, even if your frustrated don't go self voting.

While you've done a few things which I haven't liked reading over the topic, I get the feeling you just frustrated townie. This issue arose out of something in RVS and has been going 10 pages in. It seems more like you feel backed into a corner over an issue in rvs and people just aren't dropping the situation even though you feel you have nothing else to say on it.

I think its more townie feeling frustrated than scum thinking there going to be lynched so they self vote to try to show us only they wouldn't self vote if they were scum.

[Mathdino]

Not sure about you, Finn, but I don't give a crap about what happened in RVS. Like I said, I honestly do believe what he did back then was exactly what he said he was doing: a reaction test.

My problem lies in his battle with Newbie, his hypocrisy about meta, the weak links he likes to point out, and the outright asking me to claim.

[FinnLaw]

Not sure about you, Finn, but I don't give a crap about what happened in RVS. Like I said, I honestly do believe what he did back then was exactly what he said he was doing: a reaction test.

My problem lies in his battle with Newbie, his hypocrisy about meta, the weak links he likes to point out, and the outright asking me to claim.

Yeah I actually agree with the reasons your suspicious of him.

First the inconsistencies pointed out in his posts are suspicious, it's double standards in relation to meta. He can't claim that meta is wrong most of the time and you should generally ignore it, but later ask people to use it when it relates to him.

Then the mason situation. His post in #182 where he was asking you to claim was very anti-town. It was just very illogical from a town point of view. To claim mason at this stage under no pressure and if you were scum you're not going to reveal it, the post was of no benefit to town. We shouldn't be asking someone to claim mason at this time, it was simply unnecessary and anti-town so this defiantly bugs me.

But then I don't like how this mason situations started. What caused this discussion was Wgeurt saying that if Newbie flips scum he would find you suspicious. To me this is just him potentially seeing you and Newbie as scum buddies he wasn't talking about masons. I actually feel you made a bigger deal out of it than needed and created the issue around the masons.

There are several good points made against him and he defiantly has done suspicious things and I'm thinking would I not normally think this is a pretty good case against him? But on the other hand I just have this gut feeling that he is simply frustrated town. 11 pages in and the majority of pressure has been on him. I feel he has been tunnelled somewhat and this has caused him to make stupid comments which aren't necessarily comments from scum breaking under pressure. It seems he feels like he is backed into a corner and can't get through to people and so is frustrated and giving up but from a town point of view. I just get more of a feeling he's frustrated so has he just said stupid things because of this.

Sorry for the quite long paragraph post. Hey again Mala .

[Wisdom]

Hey Wisdom, when wgeurts first unvoted you after voting shortly before, did you think it was pretty suspicious at that moment?

Not really, I found it weird that he was unvoting already but not necessarily scummy. Someone posted later about how it might have been scummy and it made me revisit it.

[Wisdom]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

This overreaction continues being on the borders between newbtown and scum faking a newb.
From what I've read, I don't think people are tunneling him that hard that such a reaction would be warranted. But then people new to the game often don't understand this.

Ugh. Dunno.

[Wisdom]

I think its more townie feeling frustrated than scum thinking there going to be lynched so they self vote to try to show us only they wouldn't self vote if they were scum.

Normally I'd agree with this, but there have been multiple cases noted where wgeurts could have possibly been imitating a newbtown and being pretty good at it. So I don't think it's to be ruled out.

[SilverWolf]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

If you are town like you say you are, you should unvote yourself. The best way to help town if for you to give us your reads on the other players, and continue to scumhunt regardless of whether or not you are going to be lynched. Your self vote does not benefit town at all. Right now I'm having trouble deciding if you are scum or frustrated town because you have shown actions that could come from either.

Please take a deep breath, unvote yourself, and calmly and rationally lay out a defense of yourself and tell us what you think about the other players in the game. If you are VT, don't worry about the lynch, but instead worry about what we are going to be able to use from your posts after you are gone.

[SilverWolf]

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

[TellTaleHeart]

wgeurts, please stop self-voting. It's silly and anti-town.

[TellTaleHeart]

Also, I'm guessing you have no thoughts on the rest of wgeurts's posts? (shamelessly asking for your thoughts on my analysis turned case)

None that I'll talk about tonight.

TTH: eh already asked you question. If you get around to this, by PoE (heh, Tell Tale Heart using PoE), the scum are in {Wisdom, DukeC, Undertaker, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, acryon}. That seem accurate? You mentioned that acryon had articulated good reasoning, but never mentioned a read on him.

That is very accurate.
Regarding acryon, I said earlier that he articulated clear problems with Victor's posting, not that it was "good." I'm getting mixed signals from acryon himself. If I said anything else about acryon, it would be made-up since my read on him is still in its formative stages. So, I'll be happy to just leave it at that.

Posts #1 and #2 by Wisdom are weird because they came after wgeurts' voting/unvoting of him as well as the

obvious

suspicious behavior that wgeurts was getting hounded for. I find it hard to believe that Wisdom didn't see why wgeurts' behavior was extremely scummy, especially with that odd unvote. Therefore, Wisdom's questions come off as fluff and as an act of trying to look town by asking questions.

There also hasn't been any real scum hunting from Wisdom, just a few comments here and there about certain players and questions towards certain players. It almost seems like Wisdom is skirting through this phase, asking just the right amount of questions in order to not set off any alarms.

Well, this sounds familiar. I wonder where I heard it before...
Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continues

right

up to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.

OK,

now

I'm to the stage where I want to convince other people to vote Wisdom. I think a competing Wisdom wagon would be good because I'm pretty dissatisfied with this wgeurts one.

Still no word from Not_Mafia. I feel stood up.

[Malakittens]

What am I posting a defence against that I haven't already done?!

I'm claiming vanilla town and I'll hammer myself to show scum are driving my lynch.

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

VOTE: Wgeurts

Okay my loves. The wagon on Wge is bad and you all unvote. This is townflail and not scumflail

[wgeurts]

[UNVOTE: ]
As requested.
I'll post my thoughts on the people driving my wagon in a second.

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:
Haha, I've gotten too used to editing the wiki's open setups page.

[wgeurts]

My suspicions lie with VDA and Wisdom.

Wisdom is steering people to vote me without actually doing so himself. He is doing this by raising suspicion (which isn't very hard at this stage and my play) which is being taken over by others and is creating a whole lot of ruckus that the scum can easily hop on and hide in. If he's scum this would make sense as he could them suddenly decide he thinks I'm scum and then hammer me. I've already claimed so he would have to wait for nothing. He is also not pushing or searching for scum, he seems to be asking the same well formulated question here and there making discussion but no real content.

VDA started the wagon and has since then done little to nothing to help it. He has done so little scum hunting I imagine he is just sitting back and enjoying the chaos I partially caused.

I've rethought my read on Newbie and he seems town to me now.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

[Wisdom]

Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continues

right

up to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.

Or I was just not sure whether we're watching scum theatre or an actual newbie.

[Mathdino]

Uh, not sure if you caught this, but I think about 4 people asked him to give his reads and explain who he thought was scum... What, did you expect him to FoS you and Victor with a tr-tr-trembling...voice?

I don't like this. I see nothing between your last post 256and the above that would tip your read on wgeurts from suspicious to lynchworthy.

The pressure getting to you, Wisdom? 2 people suspect you for wishiwashiness and you cave in and hop on the wagon?
I still think wgeurts is scum. But regardless of his alignment, I'm seeing some merit in

FoSing: Wisdom

.

mod edit: fixed link.

[Wisdom]

Neh, couldn't care less about pressure. I find that he was too quick in dropping the whole "omg you're all tunneling me so bad" thing and returning to acting like he was never suspected. An actual newbie most likely wouldn't be able to recover that fast.

[Mathdino]

Yo mod, can you fix the link in the above post please?

In the interest of not wasting a post...
Agree that NM should follow through.
I do find it interesting that wgeurts dropped off the Newbie suspicions and moved to the town's other 2 suspects, but I can't really blame him anymore than I already do considering we did ask.

Mala

, assuming you're sticking with your vote on acryon, any reads on everyone else? Particularly interested in your thoughts on Victor and Wisdom.
The same goes to

blindmewithscience and FinnLaw

; I know I'm the guy trying to push the wgeurts wagon, but this town as a whole really is tunneling him and the discussion on him.

Newbie

, what you said on Wisdom doesn't nullify if wgeurts flips scum. Scum bus a lot. Anyway, I'm especially interested to hear what you think on what Wisdom just posted.

For the record, I think I'm at the point where if I didn't put suspicion on you and you posted more than 5 times, I'm townreading you.

Welcome Finn and feel better Silver.

Edit: Okay, derp, that actually makes sense. Not deleting the above for the sake of record but that is a good point.

unFoS: you

.

[reinoe]

It's late at night so here's a random picture of bitter enemies. Vote count in the morning during football commercials.

[wgeurts]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

I posted those posts at 23:45 ish at night, I was tired.

[Wisdom]

And?

[FinnLaw]

Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.

This overreaction continues being on the borders between newbtown and scum faking a newb.

From what I've read, I don't think people are tunneling him that hard that such a reaction would be warranted.

But then people new to the game often don't understand this.

Ugh. Dunno.

Wisdom you said you don't think others are tunnelling that hard to warrant the reaction he gave. On the topic of tunnelling, would you say you have been tunnelling Wgeurt?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

Wisdom you didn't like Wgeurt's quick recovery, saying he acted like nothing happened. He un-vote because people (myself included) asked him to un-vote. The self vote was anti-town. You said he acted like nothing happened, to you how was he should he have acted?

[Not_Mafia]

I've only skimmed but I agree with Mala, and trust her ability to read town flail

@Mod V/LA until 23/10

I won't be replacing out, just need to wait for things to calm down a bit (good things)