Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Wisdom]

Wisdom you said you don't think others are tunnelling that hard to warrant the reaction he gave. On the topic of tunnelling, would you say you have been tunnelling Wgeurt?

No? I was thinking there is a chance he's just a newbie so I refrained from scumreading him right away, but it just doesn't seem that likely after his recent posts. How am I tunneling?

Wisdom you didn't like Wgeurt's quick recovery, saying he acted like nothing happened. He un-vote because people (myself included) asked him to un-vote. The self vote was anti-town. You said he acted like nothing happened, to you how was he should he have acted?

Usually newbtowns who throw a tantrum and self-vote like he did refuse to listen to reason and just stubbornly insist that they should be lynched because they're a liability etc. wgeurts on the other hand completely recovered and started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people, as if his "frustration" and the whole ordeal never happened. It just looks like the whole thing was just an act to gain the town's sympathy, and when he did so, he dropped it and went back to trying to push mislynches.

I just don't think it was natural, dunno how else to explain it.

[FinnLaw]

No? I was thinking there is a chance he's just a newbie so I refrained from scumreading him right away, but it just doesn't seem that likely after his recent posts. How am I tunneling?

I wasn't saying you were tunnelling, I just wanted to know your opinion. You don't think you are. I feel while you have been focussed on him I'm not necessarily sure it's tunnelling. I'm thinking if you were tunnelling him then you would have put your vote on him earlier.

(Although when I was looking for a definition of what tunnelling is actually classified as, your wiki page was amongst the results where it mentioned you have a history of tunnelling. Just thought that was a funny coincidence)

Usually newbtowns who throw a tantrum and self-vote like he did refuse to listen to reason and just stubbornly insist that they should be lynched because they're a liability etc. wgeurts on the other hand completely recovered and started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people, as if his "frustration" and the whole ordeal never happened. It just looks like the whole thing was just an act to gain the town's sympathy, and when he did so, he dropped it and went back to trying to push mislynches.

I just don't think it was natural, dunno how else to explain it.

I think looking at your view it's like you expected him to just continue to complain about it and not move on. To me his reaction was fine and how he should of reacted. Once he un-votes he should then be trying to put some arguments across as an alternative lynch, he shouldn't just continue to complain about the same issue.

You mentioned he 'started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people.' Those people were you and VDA. I would say the people Wgeurt has been at odds with are you, VDA, Mathdino and also Newbie. So for him to suspect you two is kind of expected.

[Wisdom]

Yup, I do have a history of tunneling. I am trying to cut down on it as much as I can lately because it's toxic for games.

Yes, if you look at the bigger picture, his unvoting is the better thing for town in general. I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that people who actually do get frustrated to the point of giving up just cannot come back that easily. There's pride, there's stubborness, there are a lot of things at stake. I've seen many people like this and I don't recall seeing such a quick recovery.

I don't think Mathdino or Newbie are under such heavy pressure right now. Victor has been the most popular target of suspicion since the beginning and lately me, a little before his posts happened. That's why I think that he's just targetting the two people that are under the most pressure at the moment.

[TellTaleHeart]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

Furthermore

, I don't like this vote because it foists a Catch 22 onto wgeurts. If he doesn't unvote, he continues to be anti-town and unproductive, but if he does unvote, that's considered condemning evidence.

[wgeurts]

Ok, Wisdom. Take my word for it for now then, I'm VT; not mason, not scum. Just vote someone else for now otherwise we have a mis-lynch. We'll see what happens D2 however and you can PL me then or whatever.

[Wisdom]

Does that mean you're done suspecting me? Why are you telling me what to do as if you know I'm town?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts

Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.

Furthermore

, I don't like this vote because it foists a Catch 22 onto wgeurts. If he doesn't unvote, he continues to be anti-town and unproductive, but if he does unvote, that's considered condemning evidence.

I am not sure what you're saying here. He had unvoted already when I voted him.

[TellTaleHeart]

You're saying that

the

town reaction would've been to keep self voting?

[Wisdom]

Yeh. That's the natural action for a town player who broke down to that level.

Again, I am not arguing that it would be better for the town if he didn't unvote. That's a fact, obviously it's better when people don't self-vote in any context. I am talking about how unnatural his unvote and everything else he posted seem given the mindset he should be having at that moment.

[TellTaleHeart]

That seems oversimplified and it doesn't sound right.

[wgeurts]

Wisdom, no I don't think your town at all. VOTE: Wisdom

[Wisdom]

Your 279 sure doesn't look like that.

[wgeurts]

Mmm, I can't be sure on my reads as town often they are wrong and you could be a mason/town/scum. If your town please explain why you've locked me into a situation which I'd always look scummu no matter what I do.

[wgeurts]

Also, what's stopping from all masons claiming?
It would confirm 3 town out of 13, masons aren't exactly more powerful than town.

[Wisdom]

How did I do that?

pedit: Really now? You mean to tell me that's not a purposeful "newbslip"?

[FinnLaw]

Wgeurts your not seriously talking about masons claimaing again are you?

[wgeurts]

Wgeurts your not seriously talking about masons claimaing again are you?

Is there any topic somebody could link me to on this?
I'm interested in the oppinions.

[Wisdom]

So wgeurts, answer me, how did I "lock you into a situation where you'd always look scummy"?

[FinnLaw]

@wisdom, i get where Wgeurt is coming from about being locked in a situation where he looks scummy either way. It's like TTH pointed out its come across a catch 22 situation.

His reaction after un-vote was suspicious to you. You thought that it would be more natural to not un-vote right. But then not un-voting is also anti- town so its like a lose lose situation.

[Wisdom]

I would not find not unvoting to be scummy. It would be anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

But in any case I don't get this catch 22 thing. He has all the space in the world to defend himself and explain all of his thought processes. He's not locked anywhere.

[Mathdino]

You know, the funny thing about this is by post 279 I started to rethink my read on wgeurts and saw this as frustrated town again.

BUT THEN HE PUSHES MASON CLAIM AGAIN.

wgeurts, if you're town, and I don't think you are, think about this: a mason is basically an innocent child. Now some setups let inno childs wait and PM the mod when they want to be confirmed town, instead of confirmed on D0.
Which innocent child do you think is more powerful?

That is why we don't ask masons to claim until they can actually use this info for their benefit.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I can recall times I self voted in frustration as town, but to be honest this doesn't feel the same. Particularly considering how early it is (in fact one slot still hasn't posted yet) so it's pretty anti-town to be pushing towards the end of the day with your own lynch. Still happy with my vote on Wgeurts.

Also, wegeurts, there is only 4 votes out of 7 on you without your self-vote. So help me figure out who the scum is on your wagon if you are town?

wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, Newbie, mathdino, blindmewithscience (L-3)

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure mathdino is town. Newbie leans town to me so far. So, is it VDA or blindmewithscience do you think and why?

Or is wagon analysis bad right now in the game without a flip?

Yeah, wagon analyse is generally useless preflip. And if your interested in wagon analysis why not wait for more people to join the wagon? Wouldn't this have been the point where opportunistic scum would have been jumping on?

VDA started the wagon and has since then done little to nothing to help it. He has done so little scum hunting I imagine he is just sitting back and enjoying the chaos I partially caused.

What exactly was I meant to do to help the wagon? Particularly since it took me putting little pressure on you for you to start to crack?

In fact after 279, I don't think I will be shifting my vote today.

There should be no masons claim at this point. I think that much was obvious.

Not sure what to make of Wisdom here, his play would be odd if he is Wguertes buddy so I want to put him on the backburner right now. I like Finn's questions to him and I like TTH's recent posting as well.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for double post, but I don't think this is Catch 22. It's the pitfall of using AtE in games with (I presume) more logical players. wgeurts lost credibility the moment he self-voted, as does anyone outside of RVS (and some would say inside), so in this case I'm gonna have to defer to Wisdom's reasoning here: frustrated town is usually too frustrated to just go ahead and listen to everyone.

Also, awkward moment when we're all still tunneling wgeurts.

FinnLaw

, you probably didn't notice because I put it in the middle of a line, but I asked what your other reads were, if any.
The problem this game is I've got 4 suspects that I've created (Victor, wgeurts, TTH, Wisdom), but I'm really finding it difficult to even see more than 1 scum in there; I think if I had to pick, it'd be wgeurts-TTH, but even that seems a bit off to me. So let's go PoE.

I'm very much getting a townread on

Mala's

one liner reactions to everything.

blindmewithscience

I'm getting a townread on, he seems like he actaully wants to help and I feel like I'd notice from his first few posts if he was scum (he's very much new to forum mafia, and like I said, I know the guy).
Hmm,

acryon

. I'm a bit biased, because answering questions for other people was one of my problems as town early on. It's not helpful to interrogators but I do see it as trying to help with discussion. Townread on him.

Victor

is town due to the latter half of his ISO. I do hope he posts more results of his questioning though, otherwise I'm still gonna see how he acted in the first few pages as just throwing out suspicions.

Wisdom's

votepost was pretty much the main thing that made me suspect him. I can't see a Wisdom-wgeurts scumteam at all at the moment, so I'll reserve judgment on him until tomorrow. Town for now.

That leaves FinnLaw, TTH, NM, Silver, and Undertaker.

Undertaker

I'm obviously throwing out for now. Did an ISO on

NM

and I realised there's really not as much to discuss as I thought (still not sure what TTH is smoking).

Finn's

whole Catch 22 thing

kinda

leans town, but it also seems like it could be an AtE in defence of a scum-wgeurts (as in "we're being unfair to this guy, give him a chance"). There's also how he responded to wgeurts self-voting. I can see a Finn-wgeurts team. Lean null-scum for now.

TTH

I've already stated my thoughts on. Can't get a friggin read due to her playstyle. She's my only non-lurking nullread.

If you skimmed this post, this is the part where you start reading.

Which leaves us at

SilverWolf

, who I actually ISO'd 2nd or 3rd in order to put her in the townreads list. See, when I ISO people, I mostly look out for anything that was their original reasoning, anything they created. But then I noticed there was basically none in her ISO. Seriously, take a look at it. I'll be here when you get back. Or you could keep Silver's ISO on another tab while you read the below, since I don't expect you to click a dozen links.

Alright. 35 repeats what I said about reaction testing. 84 is literally "I agree". 85 and 86 are suspicion and a vote for Victor, I don't think I have to explain how this isn't new. 95 is literally repeating my (and possibly other's) reasoning for voting Victor. 121 is jumping on Mala's "Stop butting in, acryon, sheesh" train of thought. 135, repetition of wgeurts reasoning for voting Newbie. 207 is fencesitting on the me vs wgeurts issue. Free pass on 238 since I literally asked for her thoughts on Wisdom and NM. And finally, 257 (unvote yourself, wgeurts) was already said by Finn.

I spent most of the game under the impression Silver was being helpful and contributing, but there have been 0 no lines of reasoning in the ENTIRETY of the ISO. I think Silver is playing it safe, blending in. And with that I have my new 2nd highest suspect.

FoS: SilverWolf

. Someone let me know if I'm crazy on this by the way, that took a long time to do. Also open to defence on Silver's part, but honestly, more contribution from her will do more than responding to this post.

Edit: I like Victor's above post.

[Mathdino]

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

[Wisdom]

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.