Micro 407: Jurassic Park Mafia - Game Over

[Scripten]

/confirm

Yo.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Mathdino

You have dino in your name. Good enough for me.

[Scripten]

Wow, okay. Gonna need a few minutes to compile some things. I like that we're out of RVS already, though.

[Scripten]

Hi Scripten. You roll town?

Yep.

Surprised Scripten didn't reply...I know he

worried

about his early D1 play being bad. You scared I'll sniff you out Scripten?

Also nah.

Set-up speculation is not good for town.

Is this an across-the-board thing? I mean, it'd be pretty cool if we could figure out how many scum there are.

VOTE: Pine because dinosaurs... eat... pine?

Anyway I doubt dietary choice is indicative of alignment. I'm a carnivore and town so that line of thought seems pretty iffy.

Edit: I mean it's possible that the scum entirely consists of carnivores, but that'd make me the exception proving the rule so to speak. I'd doubt it though; seems like a reasonable conclusion to make on Grib's part.

UNVOTE: Mathdino

Grib saw this and assumed that Herbivores must be town.

Grib is scum. Votes on Grib please.

Grib had role flavor that suggested it, if he's not lying. I'm calling null until later.

Got free time faster than expected

No real reads as yet, but I may pass out from all of the stupid fumes being given off from is thread. Even if the mod didn't outright state that it's not carnivores vs herbivores etc, someone outright herpderping that they're a carnivore would've made that obvious. Scum would have to be absolute blithering morons to advertise it otherwise

In fact...yeah. I take it back. Mild townread on Gribble for herpderping, moderate scum read on Blueblood for unreasonable pouncing

Vote: BluebloodedToffee

BBT always does this. Which is great for his scum games and kinda shite for his town games. Pretty sure diet is role-themed, so townies might wanna keep that to themselves so we don't do scum's rolefishing for them.

I don't really see either as scum ATM.scripten's wait a second post is weird.

Had to write this dumb wall. Lots of crap happened while I was gone for a few hours. Also, gimme some idea of where you stand on a few other players rather than just the game setup, please?

VOTE: Beck

[Scripten]

why would you ask me to give opinions of players when you quote me giving me opinions of 3 players?

and no, not that much has happened that warranted your post, it reads scummy to me

well technically 2 players, but it was obvious you had ping'd my scumdar which is why i suspect you voted me, you wanted to make the first strike.

oh and lol at expecting people to have strong reads/opinions on page 3

Yup, only seven quotes' worth of content to reply to. Also, I asked for other reads because that was just "Oh, nothing stood out about those two players." Noncommittal as hell. I just asked for something other than "I don't see either as scum." Sure, that's cool and all, but how about something a little more substantial?

Btw, I gave you reasons why I switched my vote over. Got anything other than "Ooh, that post was scummy because reasons!" and OMGUS to justify the counter-vote?

Set-up speculation is not good for town.

Is this an across-the-board thing? I mean, it'd be pretty cool if we could figure out how many scum there are.

You just answered why we shouldn't speculate on set-up in your own post;

Pretty sure diet is role-themed, so townies might wanna keep that to themselves so we don't do scum's rolefishing for them.

Just role-related stuff. Speculating on how many scumteams are logical in a micro isn't anti-town, is it?

Grib had role flavor that suggested it, if he's not lying. I'm calling null until later.

interesting because my role pm doesn't suggest my alignment has anything to do with the type of dinosaur I am...

Neither did mine, but Grib's summary of the role flavor seemed reasonable. Didn't feel too alignment-indicative.

[Scripten]

why do you think you needed to reply to everything? that is not how you played in some of your previous games so curious why you did so in this game? To me it looks like you are trying to hard.

Because... I wanted to. Also, are you going to seriously police the way I play each of my games? And call me a tryhard? Wow.

Pretty sure saying 2 players are not scum is being committal, it's probably the most committal a person can be...

That's better. So they are not scum and you're committed to those town reads? Just making sure I'm not misrepping you here.

umm, actually no you didn't. You gave absolutely no reason why you voted me.

I voted you because you had only really commented on game setup and made one feeble comment about not having a scum read on two players. Looks like it was a pretty good decision, too.

Got anything other than "Ooh, that post was scummy because reasons!" and OMGUS to justify the counter-vote?

figure you would try and discredit my vote as omgus. My reason for voting you is because right now you are the most scummy person in the game and I don't see your play 1. mirroring your town play in other games I just read and 2. I don't see any of your posts coming from a town mindset.

So... meta. Gotcha. Already responded to that.

So, can you explain how you see it impossible that my posts could come from a town mindset? I'm pretty interested to hear about that.

[Scripten]

Fantastic.

Can you tell me why you're so sure he isn't scum?

Does the fact that his apparent scumslip came from role flavor and not intro flavor change anything for you?

[Scripten]

I think he has a scum PM.

Anything in specific you can pick out that suggest this?

I think he used the intro flavour to guess that townies would be Herbivores based on the colours used in the intro post.

Why is this alignment-indicative?

I think he has tried to word it to look like a town-slip when it's actually a scum-slip.

Ooh. Okay, I like this a little more. Can you pick out where you saw something that suggests this?

[Scripten]

Beck:

Could you quote the parts of my posts you are replying to, please? It makes it easier to follow the flow of conversation.

2. That's not really true, I was commenting on things going on in the game, they just happened to be about setup, cause somebody brought the setup up.I was trying to show they were wrong. I suggest you read more carefully next time you roll scum and you play with me

What's not really true? What you're saying here says nothing to contradict what I said about your play.

3. I'll give you a specific example. The thing I said about my role pm, you said yours was the same yet you are arguing that grib's role pm somehow contained flavor that contradicts your own supposedly town role pm and you didn't question it. That's not a town mindset thing to do imo

I argued this:

Grib's summary of the role flavor seemed reasonable. Didn't feel too alignment-indicative.

Tell me how that translates into your interpretation.

[Scripten]

BBT:

Which of Grib's posts implied that he was trying to pass himself off as having made a townslip? He said that Beck might have made a townslip, and, of course, he didn't like you saying he'd made a scumslip, but I'm not seeing him passing off something as his own townslip. I think you're getting too excited on what is a null tell, but I'm to listening.

[Scripten]

Eh, alright. I'll try ISOing him and see if I missed anything.

[Scripten]

So now you are being dense on purpose, got it. Fine when I get to a computer I'll quote the posts I'm responding to, though iys quite obvious which ones I'm responding to.

I still answered you. I just asked you, politely, to quote your posts in the future so the conversation is easy to follow. No need to resort to insults.

[Scripten]

What's not really true? What you're saying here says nothing to contradict what I said about your play.

It actually does though, you tried yo imy like I was avoiding talking about the game by instead talking about setups. Thats obviously not true. I would even call it a outright lie.

You took my vote for WAY more than it initially was, then. I said, when I voted you:

Also, gimme some idea of where you stand on a few other players rather than just the game setup, please?

Up to that point, you had done nothing but talk game setup and make one comment about a couple of players that wasn't very committal at all. Tell me how that's a lie? The way you're reacting makes me feel like you're a lot more threatened by my vote than you should be.

[Scripten]

Never mind Blueblood, the answers in your previous post. Missed it, my bad.

Are you finding Grib's posts to be alignment indicative?

[Scripten]

You took my vote for WAY more than it initially was, then. I said, when I voted you:

I didn't take your vote for anything, cause I'm not concerned about your vote

Cool beans.

[Scripten]

I just asked for something other than "I don't see either as scum." Sure, that's cool and all, but how about something a little more substantial?

Just about anything about any of the other players?

Beck:

Until you replied with that fervor over my vote, I was only barely scumreading you. If you didn't care about my vote, why the overreaction and cross vote?

[Scripten]

Yawn.

Do you always suck at reading people this badly? I can see why you got defensive when I voted you.

[Scripten]

Except I never got defensive, and I don't appreciate you insulting me. Do it again and ill report you to the mod

Wasn't insulting you, bud. It's your play I was insulting. Your read is so far off it's laughable and you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I voted you, and you responded with an OMGUS vote that you tried to cover up with a half-baked excuse of a case to play it off as something else. Got anything better or are you just going to call me dense and cry when I tell you that your play is poor?

[Scripten]

Yeah, voting a scummy player is bad play....OK

I never omgus'd you, you can keep saying that if you want but it's just not true.

Care to summarize why you laid your vote, then? Since I'm so scummy, you can probably be very concise and clear about it, right?

Don't criticize my play again, I consider it an insult and insulting my play is insulting me and thankfully we have a mod who has rules that strictly forbid this kind of thing.

Thank you

I will play as I feel is necessary. If you have a problem with that, then either replace out, blacklist me, or what-have-you. You can stop trying to bully me, however. It will not work.

Grib:

Yes. I didn't see anything. BBT may not be town, but this is just how he plays as either alignment. Any other scumreads for now?

[Scripten]

I will play as I feel is necessary. If you have a problem with that, then either replace out, blacklist me, or what-have-you. You can stop trying to bully me, however. It will not work.

Yeah about that

3) Don't attack or insult your fellow player

Again, your play is not you, and I will criticize it if I see fit unless the mod says otherwise, explicitely. I'm not discussing this any further in the game thread. PM the mod and let them sort it out if you must.

Can you respond to the part of my post that is actually game-relevant?

[Scripten]

@Scripten, So if your role pm said nothing about type of dinosaur = alignment, why did you find Grib's discussion of role flavour 'reasonable'?

Because the way he described his role sounded like the rest of the flavor we've been provided and I could see how he could have made the mistake he did, as town or scum. That's why I said it was not alignment indicative.

Where did that come from?

Guess. And then you should move your vote onto scum.

Scripten, I'm also finding it slightly hypocritical that your case against Beck is he that committed to many reads. Yet, the only people you've commented on are Beck (scum) and nullish for Grib and BBT.

Except... that's not my case at all? I initially pressured him for more reads on people, true, but the reaction I got was super scummy so my vote stuck. I'm surprised his overreaction, cross-vote, and attempts to coerce my play weren't scumread harder by the rest of the town.

BBT:

You've been staying pretty clear of Beck so far. What do you think of him?

[Scripten]

I don't really have an opinion on Beck yet.

You seemed familiar with him in your first post. I figured you guys had played together before and you might have some experience with how he plays. I guess I assumed incorrectly?

[Scripten]

Gotcha.

Any associative reads based off of Grib? Say he is confirmed town via either flip or night result. Where would you head in that case?

[Scripten]

Still never overreacted, tbh I didn't even react but please 1. since you keep saying I've overreacted, link it for me.

Your posts since I've voted you have mostly been overreactions. Your response to pressure is to flail and attack the person pressuring you. That's scummy behavior to me. I suppose, if someone else asks, I'll compile your posts, but a simple ISO should be sufficient.

2. Cross votes aren't scummy, especially when the person had already called you out first

You didn't call me out. Your case was and is empty. You act like saying "This person's posts are ambiguously scummy" is more than it is.

3. I never tried to coerce anything, why do you insist on lying?

I disagree. You whined and threatened to tell on me if I didn't change how I play so as to get pressure off of you. That's coercion. Earlier, you also used a meta argument to attempt to push me into playing this game exactly as I've played other games. (If you haven't noticed, my playstyle changes slightly with every game I play. Even if it didn't, this is wholly different from how I played the one scum game I have on this site.) Meta is not wholly useless, but you were not using it to build a case on me. You were using it to get me to stop pushing you. Again, coercive behavior.

I'm more than ready to end this discussion, though. I'm not trying to get you to think you're scummy and I don't feel like having a tunneling match. I'll be moving elsewhere to engage other players now that my case on you is up. I suggest, if you would like my read on you to change, that you do the same.

[Scripten]

OH I GET IT NOW... Because I voted you, that is me overreacting and flailing?

Nope.

It doesn't say they're a threat, it says I hate them. I

perceived

them to be the threats against town, because I'm an Herbivore, and I'm town.

Get it?

Still essentially the same thing

Nope again.

Scripten, can you go over the whole PM thing please because I'm not sure where Beck is coming from.

Must I? I thought he was taking the stance you were? It's kind of hard to tell.

I changed my mind. Beck is town. Wrong, but town.

Why? I'm not seeing the towniness here. Maybe I'm conflating him being wrong with him being scum. It does happen. I just can't see how he can be playing like this as town.

[Scripten]

yeah, somebody who is trying to get their scum reads lynched clearly isn't town...

Everyone wants their scum reads lynched.

[Scripten]

Right and that's all I'm doing. Nothing about my play is bad, nothing about my play warrants the comment you just made about me.

Just chronic misunderstanding and general silliness.

Now humor me and show 1 post where I overreacted, I guarantee you can't find one.

*sigh* Here's where you start. I asked you for some more reads/opinions/SOMETHING and you cross vote me and immediately become super defensive.

Spoiler: Sudden Defensiveness/Paranoia

why would you ask me to give opinions of players when you quote me giving me opinions of 3 players?

and no, not that much has happened that warranted your post, it reads scummy to me

vote: scripten

well technically 2 players, but it was obvious you had ping'd my scumdar which is why i suspect you voted me, you wanted to make the first strike.

oh and lol at expecting people to have strong reads/opinions on page 3

Spoiler: Hyperbole

What's not really true? What you're saying here says nothing to contradict what I said about your play.

It actually does though, you tried yo imy like I was avoiding talking about the game by instead talking about setups. Thats obviously not true. I would even call it a outright lie.

*You tried to imply that I was avoiding talking about the game*

And yet...

You took my vote for WAY more than it initially was, then. I said, when I voted you:

I didn't take your vote for anything, cause I'm not concerned about your vote

[Scripten]

Scripten, if you are town, please explain why are we not getting this guy?

My play-style tends toward open logic and honesty, so I will generally give justification for my decisions within the post itself. I will respond to any questions to the best of my ability

Firstly, playstyles evolve. Secondly, my play in that game was terrible.

Thirdly, what is that question supposed to accomplish?

[Scripten]

This discussion is going nowhere.

This entire exchange reminds me a lot of how BBT interacted with me when we were on a scum team together on day 1. I'm not sure how telling this really is, since he's allegedly aware of his meta, though.

damn, those are the 3 things I said I was going to work on fixing when I returned. I guess it's kind of hard to change your playstyle

Because we are very much the same exact person. This does make your constant assurances that I'm scum make sense, however.

Projection.

[Scripten]

BBT, could you give me a per-player reads list real quick? It doesn't matter if most of your reads are null. That should not be surprising considering the levels of activity the game is getting.

I'd really appreciate our resident lurkers coming and actually playing, too. Scum hide behind lurky towns so easily.

[Scripten]

Nice, that makes me happy. Not sure why you're townreading Beck, but eh. I'm actually losing a bit of the certainty I had about him being scum due to the way Pine is talking. Can you give me an idea as to why you're townreading Insanity, though?

[Scripten]

You should know better than to ask me to explain town-reads Scripten.

It's more that I'm surprised she is a town read and not null.

Are you scumreading Grib more than Pine? You haven't really interacted with him much outside of the setup discussion from earlier.

[Scripten]

BBT:

What do you think of a Pine lynch today?

[Scripten]

Cool. Come join me, then.

UNVOTE: Beck
VOTE: Pine

[Scripten]

Cool. Come join me, then.

UNVOTE: Beck
VOTE: Pine

VOTE: Scripten

You have not expressed any suspicions of Pine so far.

Disappointed that your wagon wasn't getting any traction?

Shh, you're going to ruin the surprise.

[Scripten]

Scripten, why are you scum reading Pine?

No, seriously, I promise to explain. Just be patient.

[Scripten]

Interesting. Perhaps I did indeed misread Grib.

[Scripten]

You were starting to lean town. Still working out where your reactions are going to slot you.

[Scripten]

Just curious, was it my naked vote that made you switch over to my wagon?

[Scripten]

Claim and then somebody hammer please

Don't need to claim. I have verifiable proof that I'm town come Day 2, which will appear regardless of whether I die overnight or not. Only a very stupid town will lynch me today.

If I don't produce results tomorrow, lynch me then.

[Scripten]

That's not how it works, obvious stalling tactic.

Yes, actually, that is how it works. Quit rolefishing.

[Scripten]

I was at L-1 because of an RVS vote and a sketchy-as-hell quickwagon. Oh, and a tunneler. I already told you that I can present solid proof on Day 2 about my role. Do you REALLY think that I'd be playing a scum gambit that way? That's incredibly short-sighted.

Also, here's the awesome part. If you don't believe my claim tomorrow, you can use this thing called a Day 2 lynch to take me out.

[Scripten]

I'm more sure that Pine and insanity018 are town now. (Sorry for the vote, Pine. Wanted to gauge a few reactions.) Beck... is null because he's single-minded and tunnel-y as hell, but tunneling is pretty much a null tell, if not town. So right now I'm left with lurkers and Grib, who suddenly feels a little off to me.

Grib:

Why do you believe that BBT and myself are unaligned? Why would that affect your vote? Since you said my naked vote on Pine was small beans, walk me through the process of switching over to the wagon on me and then back to BBT, please?

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: Grib

[Scripten]

Full claim your role or die

If you haven't noticed, I'm not at L-1 any more. You're the only active player on my wagon at the moment. Perhaps you don't understand why this is. That's okay, nobody's perfect.

However, I'm still not claiming my role this early in the game. Again, quit rolefishing, please. It's just not happening right now.

[Scripten]

How about you come join me on the Grib wagon, instead? BBT will be here soon, too.

[Scripten]

get shot and flip town (in which case your power is moot)

The rest of your post is true. This part is not. I would prefer not to explain any more than this about my role.

Also, note that Beck is voting me already. The other vote on me was "RVS" from a lurker. So unless people come running back to suddenly vote me again, I'm not worried about being lynched before having a chance to claim. If I truly cannot survive Day 1 without having to claim, I will, but right now is not that time. A hard claim would make my power moot, so I'm trying to avoid that.

Don't see how Beck is rolefishing here. Also love how you're capitalizing on BBT's idiot!tunnel without giving a fuck as to the reasons I have for him being wrong or scum.

Beck is rolefishing because he's operating on the idea that I'm at L-1, when I'm not. I'm placed him in my null slot because he would not tunnel me this hard if he were scum. BBT is a strange player, compared to the meta here. I am not scumreading him right now because of the way I've seen him play in other games, though. I'm actually not capitalizing on his tunnel on you. I was and am not scumreading you for the flavor discussion from before.

Could you answer my 262, please? It's kind of important.

[Scripten]

Your partner umvoted first, causing insanity to also unvote.

So, since Gribbles is my partner, why not join my wagon and lynch him? I mean, it will make the game 100x harder for me, right?

I find your logic to be so rock-solid, if you haven't noticed.

Proper play is a person refuses to claim = death by lynch.

That's how chat mafia works. This is different. I'm not claiming my role and rendering it moot on Day 1, thanks. If I'm brought to L-1 again, I may reconsider, because I'd rather not see this lynch wasted, but until then, deal.

[Scripten]

Cause you are the only one voting grib, and you have already committed the cardinal sin

Heh.

As a side note; how do I change those links so that instead of the address showing it shows like 'Newbie 1524' as a hyperlink instead?

Like this:

Code: Select all

[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58653]Newbie 1524[/url]

Newbie 1524

[Scripten]

Wait, seriously? Goddamn it. I'm waiting to hear what the mod says, but if that's true, that is majorly irritating. I hate derphammers.

[Scripten]

Oh, right, the vote wasn't counted because it was in the same line as other content. Okay, phew.

[Scripten]

Damn, BBT, give me a heart attack, why don't you? If you wanted me out of the game that bad, you could just mislynch me.

Also, Yung said he's catching up, so a day of reading is fairly understandable.

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Grib

231 and 232. You're likely not knowingly aligned. I don't have a particularly strong read on you either way so I didn't really mind lynching you. If you were to flip scum, from my POV that would clear BBT and I could stop trying to kill him. Then you claimed you could prove your role/alignment, so I switched back to him.

That was my thought process to a T.

Alright, fair enough. So why wait to hop on until then? Beck's been on my case most of the game.

Was it rolefishing then, or only now that you're out of L-1 range?

Now that I'm out of L-1. Though, the amount of pushing he's doing is annoying regardless. He's a single-minded player, similarly to BBT but significantly worse about it.

You said: "How about you come join me on the Grib wagon, instead? BBT will be here soon, too."
I interpreted that as" "How about you come join me on the Grib wagon, instead? The guy who's been mindlessly tunneling Grib will be here soon to back me up and I'm going to use that to my advantage."

You figured it out already. You just don't know it or prefer not to say you know yet. See here:

Seriously, though, Scripten has a point. Why him over me if you think we're buddies?

Beck doesn't care how likely your wagon is to come to lynch nor that he's reading you as my scumbuddy. This tells me things. Does it tell you things?

Walk me through wy claiming is bad if you're going to be townfirmed literally regardless of whatever happens. Lynch or no lynch, NK or no NK, you will be town. Yes?

I'm getting more than just a town confirmation for myself tomorrow. Again, I'd like to not discuss what my role is until then.

I played with someone who promised up and down he'd be townfirmed the following Day when it looked like he was about to get lynched. He ended up being a Vanilla Town who lied so he could survive. Amazingly, he made it to endgame and helped us win.

Point is, promises are usually bullshit. So I'm skeptical, but also willing to see it through because to completely ignore it would be dumb.

This is no fakeclaim and if I were not a power role, I would not be playing in this fashion. However, you are right to be skeptical. If I produce nothing tomorrow or you are not convinced, lynch me.

Pine:

Can you imagine what would have happened if I hadn't been this obvious about it? Also, Beck is probably town, so yes, it's reading town vs town to me. I just wish he would start scumhunting elsewhere as well, so we might be able to lynch actual scum.

[Scripten]

Nothing would have happened. I have a policy, as both Town and scum, of outright ignoring pressure votes and votes that have no reason attached

Alright, I have solid townreads on Scripten and Beck, a mild townread on Mathdino, mild scum read on Grib, moderate scum read on BBT. The rest of you need to post more of substance

Scripten, lynche BBT with me

I have a mild town read on BBT. I know it's wholly meta-oriented, but this is just how BBT plays. Specifically, take a look at Micro 382 where BBT was a cop. Watch how tunnel-y he gets on me. Then look at Newbie 1425 where BBT and I are scum together.

Both are slightly different, but you can catch a lot of his various traits in both, and this game feels very town-BBT to me. I would rather lynch Grib today.

[Scripten]

Beck is probably just misinformed/poor town, Mathdino. The Pine wagon was a blatant reaction test. The reaction was very sudden wagon on me. Grib is looking rather scummy recently. Lots of people are lurking hardcore.

You should come hop on the Grib wagon with us.

[Scripten]

PEDIT: Beck... actually ninja'd me with exactly what I was gonna say.

Anyway, I'm not so sure if I would want to lynch a lurker yet. We don't want to see them getting into MYLO or LYLO, but just lurking isn't exactly a scumtell, as much as I'd like it to be.

That said, yungh0mo has done literally nothing all game and should be force-replaced. Totes ridiculous.

[Scripten]

Going to be gone at a Tech Jam until 7 pm EST tonight. So I probably won't be posting until then.

>>Thanks for the heads-up<<

[Scripten]

I'm back. This is L-1.

UNVOTE: Grib
VOTE: Yungh0mo

I literally cannot see you as town. Like, seriously.

[Scripten]

Someone state intent to hammer? I think we're good for now.

[Scripten]

UNVOTE: Yungh0mo

Waiting for replacement.

[Scripten]

And beyond that, the wagon on me was total crap. If my expectations of your play weren't already so low, I would have considered you scum for pushing it, Beck. Pine, the player I voted FOR, realized without any prompting that my naked vote was a blatant reaction test. It's why I'm scumreading Grib now.

[Scripten]

Finding 2 scum on day 1 rarely happens, odds say we will Lynch town now we let scum off the hook

Because being lynched day 2 is totally "being let off the hook." Do you actually read what you are saying before you post?

Also, if you're so sure I'm scum, I won't be lynched, and that Grib is my scumbuddy, why aren't you voting him?

[Scripten]

Beck, you think I'm scum but won't vote for me? Is that your final answer?

Because I know at least three people who'd be happy to wagon me with you.

I'm not voting anyone else but scripten, final answer

Or apparently FinnLaw, right?

P-EDIT: Whoa, wait. BBT, do you think Beck is anti-town enough to be a higher priority lynch than a legit scummy player?

[Scripten]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to lynch him and see him out of the game. But I don't know if it's motivated by him being actual scum or just being obtuse.

[Scripten]

Trust me, I perfectly understand that. His play is terrible and he should be ashamed of it. That said, it's consistent with the way he plays as town.

He might be manipulating his meta, but I'm more inclined to think that he really is just that stubborn and single-minded.

[Scripten]

I think he's just really poor town. Are you still up for lynching Grib or has something changed your mind?

[Scripten]

Welcome to the game, Majiffy!

BBT:

Wait, you're scumreading Beck, Grib, and Majiffy's slot? Can you give a rundown on their order of scuminess? Just curious.

[Scripten]

I want to let Majiffy catch up before we lynch, since yung's few posts were pretty damn scummy. My current top is Grib, so I suppose I'll do this:

VOTE: Grib

[Scripten]

If Scripten is not 100% townfirmed toMorrow, I want him to die as well,

and fast

.

Why this?

[Scripten]

Wow, you really are just completely single-minded, Beck.

I'd actually be okay with a Beck lynch, I'm beginning to think. I'm starting to doubt that if my role was posted (against the rules) in the thread that he wouldn't call me a liar just to push that lynch he wants.

[Scripten]

Alright. This has seriously gone on long enough. STOP. Now.

STOP trying to guess my role.

STOP trying to PoE my role.

STOP fucking role fishing.

NOW.

I'm not going to reveal my role and negate it because you're acting like an ignoramus. In fact, I'm not going to discuss this topic at all until tomorrow, in which case you may lynch me if I do not reveal. Until then, consider yourself ignored.

P-Edit: Posting your role PM is against the rules and will get you mod-killed in most games. It was pretty obvious that's what I meant.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Grib

Still not sure why this wagon hasn't taken off. Also not sure why Beck and BBT are suddenly onto their own vanity wagons, considering they both agree that a Grib lynch is a good enough idea today. It makes me sad and lonely.

[Scripten]

Beck:

This is totally ridiculous. Assuming you are town, scum are hiding behind your play, Beck, do you get that? Everyone here knows what you are saying. They disagree. Move on. Your posts will still be there later on. Repeating yourself just wastes time. Let's pretend I'm scum and I am just BSing through today. Lynch me tomorrow and you still have several days to catch my theoretical scumbuddy.

By the way, the whole "I'm not voting for anyone you vote for" is kind of the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a game of mafia. Even discounting bussing, the absolute conviction that you are 100% right is so anti-town it's not funny. If I were scum, I could play you like a goddamn fiddle with that and lock up a wagon on my scumbuddy. That said, nothing is going to change your mind.

Everyone else:

Can we work on scumhunting elsewhere? Beck is not going to listen to anyone else, so we need to ignore him for now and work on solving the game without him.

Pine:

Where do you stand on all this? Can you give some idea of your scumreads?

[Scripten]

You do realize that it's a soft claim with the stipulation that I prove it on Day 2 and that the stipulation changes things, right?

[Scripten]

While (583) is just a list of BBT being BBT, I can't deny that (585) is solid. Damn. Hypocrisy isn't usually a part of BBT's meta, either as scum or town, but his push on Beck did feel wrong ad I can't deny that this feels off for his play.

Also, BBT is now at L-2, just in case we risk a derphammer.

[Scripten]

@Math

- Most recent scum-games;

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58653 - Newbie 1524

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=58743 - Micro 376

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=58649 - Micro 369

As a side note; how do I change those links so that instead of the address showing it shows like 'Newbie 1524' as a hyperlink instead?

I think I linked to the micro I played with him where he was town cop, too.

[Scripten]

I have already said that I don't fake claim as scum so why do you still think I am town again?

Do you not consider claiming VT to be a fake claim? I really don't like this wagon on BBT.

Finnlaw:

When you say the VT claim doesn't clear Beck as scum, are you meaning that you're operating on the assumption that BBT is 100% clearing Beck for the remainder of the game or that his current read on Beck has swung back toward town?

I know I'm campaigning for a meta defense on someone whose sig says to "Stop relying on meta," but I've played with BBT as town and on a scum team with him. When he's town, his reads are all over the place, swinging from town to scum all game. When he's scum, he's much less organic and a lot more consistent. He tunnels pretty hard in either case, including when he's an investigative role like cop. It's a playstyle thing. Granted, I may be wrong about his play in this particular game, as being aware of one's meta is the surest way to subvert it, but I don't think that the case on him is strong enough to justify his lynch.

That said, the way Grib presents his case has cast some doubt on my scum read. It's a fairly well-made case, if not one I can get behind, and it seems to come from a town mindset.

Grib:

Can you give me a read on Finnlaw? I'm curious as to what you think of his play at this point in the game.

[Scripten]

Spoiler: ...

I really don't like this wagon on BBT.
[...]
That said, the way Grib presents his case has cast some doubt on my scum read. It's a fairly well-made case, if not one I can get behind, and it seems to come from a town mindset.

Wait... what?

I'm going to second Mathdino's what post. What? You don't like the wagon but you can get behind it? What?

I'm going to second Mathdino's what post. What? You don't like the wagon but you can get behind it? What?

I told y'all he's scum

Guys. Reading comprehension. I said that I did not agree with Grib's case, but that it appeared to come from a town mindset. Do you not understand how that works?

Getting to other stuff in a bit.

[Scripten]

But you said you could get behind it...

I said it was not one I could get behind. Maybe my wording was confusing. I said it was a good case, but that my meta read on BBT makes my gut disagree really hard with it.

It sounds more like you agree with my case, but don't want to because meta.

just going off this, I feel like for most of the game he has played like the 2nd one. He was tunneling pretty hard on grib and then tunneling on me. He did hop off to vote a lurker and I think he voted pine at some point, but he's been doing a bit of tunneling this game.

Hmm... You know, that's a point, you two. That's a hell of a good point. I am pretty susceptible to being buddied, so this play of his would be consistent with that. You know what, maybe this isn't such a bad wagon after all. I guess if we're wrong, it's only day 1. My read on Grib and BBT meta are just not good enough to justify not sheeping a good case.

UNVOTE: Grib
VOTE: BBT

[Scripten]

Had you said though not one I could get behind, that would mean something entirely different

Fair enough. Apologies for confusing everyone.

[Scripten]

OH!

BBT is at L-1. Nobody hammer without claiming intent first, please.

[Scripten]

Mod: My vote is on BBT, not Grib.

>>I dont know what you're talking about....

fixed.ty

<<

[Scripten]

Are you happier with a BBT lynch or a Majiffy lynch? I'd honestly be happier with a Majiffy lynch atm. There's pretty much nothing supporting that slot being town.

[Scripten]

Dear god Scripten you better have a good reason you're town tomorrow because in your BBT votepost I had a real flash of "Oh shit he IS scum".

Can you explain this out? Is it because I changed my mind on a town read?

[Scripten]

I'm trying to move onto a lynch that doesn't give me so many conflicting feelings. BBT's playstyle is scummy, simple as that. I can't control that, but I can try to keep us from lynching town as best I can. Majiffy's slot has been useless, so I'd be happier with his lynch.

And frankly, I just don't give a fuck how town people think I am in this game. My role can be confirmed, so I really just don't care. I'm tired and I have a massive multivariate calculus exam tomorrow that I'm studying for so I don't fail it. Forgive me being a little distracted.

[Scripten]

Because you waffled between whether or not it was a good case until it was clear this lynch was probably happening. It seems like you think BBT's town but don't want to do anything to stop the wagon.

The case is fine. I just have experience playing with BBT and realize that everything in that case is part of how he plays as town. Tunneling and hypocrisy/wildly swinging reads included. All I have is meta and a gut feeling. And BBT isn't even here to defend himself. (Though that isn't his fault.)

[Scripten]

He can't rely on you to meta-save him every game. If he doesn't town it up, he gets lynched. Sucks for him. I think he's scum, and I really don't want him riding the "oh that's just how he plays as either alignment" pony to endgame. It's a shitty reason and we all know it.

Yeah, no, I get that. I would agree with that if lynching town wasn't, y'know, anti-town. His playstyle is always tough to read since it comes across as scummy all the time, even when he's town.

The case is fine. I just have experience playing with BBT and realize that everything in that case is part of how he plays as town. Tunneling and

hypocrisy

/

wildly swinging reads

included. All I have is meta and a gut feeling. And BBT isn't even here to defend himself. (Though that isn't his fault.)

Red is what his behavior is being called. Blue is how I've been interpreting it. Specifically referring to him waffling on Beck.

[Scripten]

Jesus, someone just fucking hammer already then.

I'm not here to try to defend someone trying to manipulate their damn meta every game.

[Scripten]

Scripten, if you think he is town, make a case.

Like I said, all I have is meta to go on. I have no justifications for his actions because I'm not him. I haven't thought Beck to be scum in ages, so I never really agreed with either of you. BBT's claim is that you wanted to lynch Beck for his behavior before it had become scummy. (According to BBT) BBT's pushing that as a case against you, I get it. I got to the point where I thought "If this were any other player, I'd have pushed their wagons way earlier" and that was the point where I joined on. I haven't left because I don't think my case for him being town is worthwhile enough to push.

Does that explain my position enough?

[Scripten]

Scripten, is BBT town?

I honestly don't know for sure. My one non-newbie, non-scum experience with him, he tunneled me hard day 1, then switched to another townie who got lynched, used his cop inspect to clear me that night, then helped tunnel the townie who sheeped his day 1 case on me into a lynch. He wasn't just town in that game, but a power role. Maybe this helps you all understand why I'm so torn on this wagon. In his scum game with me, he was less interested in tunneling, his cases were generally more solid, and his reads didn't waver much. Granted, it was a newbie game and I was also scum, but this just does not feel like that. The only other meta read I've got is an ongoing game that I can't discuss.

All that said, I just cannot be arsed to defend BBT when my read on him is built only on meta. I'd rather have the info from his flip than try to justify his actions.

If so, who is scum?

If BBT is town, I'd be most suspicious of Grib or Finnlaw. I'm not sure which would be most scummy to me yet, since they are on opposite sides of the wagon.

If not, who is BBT's partner?

Probably Majiffy.

[Scripten]

Okay, I need a bit before I come back into this game. I'm going back to reread and figure out where people are.

UNVOTE:

[Scripten]

No, there isn’t. Don’t pretend one of your reasons for wanting to lynch him wasn’t “antitown.”

I called Beck dumb and wanted to shut him up

because

he’s being antitown. You cannot be this dense.

Wait.

Clarify this for me. Did you think Beck was scum when you voted him? Please just yes or no.

[Scripten]

BBT and Grib:

Define exactly what you believe "anti-town" means, please? As in, one sentence, simply what it is and what alignment it is a subset of.

[Scripten]

Holy shit.

Waiting for Grib to post, but I think I've figured this out.

[Scripten]

No, there isn’t. Don’t pretend one of your reasons for wanting to lynch him wasn’t “antitown.”

I called Beck dumb and wanted to shut him up

because

he’s being antitown. You cannot be this dense.

Wait.

Clarify this for me. Did you think Beck was scum when you voted him? Please just yes or no.

No.

Also I never voted him.

BBT and Grib:

Define exactly what you believe "anti-town" means, please? As in, one sentence, simply what it is and what alignment it is a subset of.

Same: town playing against their wincon is antitown.

I consider tunneling a provable town PR antitown.

fake edit: this post is very relevant.

Pointlessly tunneling on a PR who claimed a power with a confirmable result is phenomenally stupid. Crying that we're "policy lynching" you is just empty, useless noise I'd expect from a seven year old.

If no one unvotes within the next handful of posts then

I will hammer.

Okay, so BBT called Beck scum for pushing on a softclaimed PR, while you called him anti-town. He called you scum for saying that Beck was anti-town and threatening (sorry, thought you'd actually voted) to vote him. You're saying that he is scum because that is hypocritical.

Is there anything I'm missing? (Anyone feel free to chime in here.)

[Scripten]

For extra clarification: I play mafia on another site, where "scummy" and "antitown" are used interchangeably. In my mind, they are drastically different from calling someone scum. Scum is an alignment; scummy is not. Scum can be towny, just as town can be scummy. BBT thinks that calling someone scummy = scum, whereas I interpreted it as him pushing for a lynch on a scummy townsperson.

So you thought that BBT was town reading Beck while simultaneously voting him, and he did the same thing to do. You're saying that this was a communication breakdown, then?

Please keep in mind that I've been focusing on BBT, and if I were scum, I could have very easily switched over to Majiffy's wagon to ensure my survival into toMorrow instead of risking people siding with BBT against me, which I can feel happening like an approaching storm.

Not if Majiffy is your scumbuddy. Why do you think people are about to switch sides?

[Scripten]

Can you both just answer each other? Because this is seriously annoying.

[Scripten]

Intent to hammer Majiffy.

Alright, jesus...

Majiffy:

Pretend the questions you refuse to answer are coming from your top townread and will help nail the scum you want lynched, assuming you're town. Can you now please explain any of your reasoning? Because I'm just seeing a ton of deflection.

[Scripten]

Scripten, that's the wrong wagon.

Can you or anyone else tell me how the hell Majiffy is town, then? Because I'm just not seeing it.

[Scripten]

How is he scum?

He hasn't really scumhunted at all. Everything he's said that could be passed off as scumhunting has been deflective and opaque.

Majiffy:

You mean Beck pushing me after I'd soft-claimed or the tunnleing between us before then?

[Scripten]

I actually think people are taking issue with how he plays the game than what he is actually doing.

Well that's nothing new this game.

Give me a bit to reread Majiffy's posts so I can quote an example or two.

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Majiffy

Caught up, still no real read on the Mathdino.

VOTE: Beck

Keep on strengthening that scumread, Beck.

Ooh like I care, if you are town you are playing like shitbwith equally shitty reads. You better hope nobody puts you at l-1

"You better hope", fucking lol.

What are you going to do, quickhammer a townie on D1? Retard.

Majiffy is more interested in snarking at people than playing the game.

Lynch it.

False. I am snarkily playing the game.

Keep on strengthening that scumread, Beck.

So we have;

1) Retroactively fitting cases
2) Quote and context obfuscation
3) Misrepresentation and outright lying

Anything else I'm missing? And this is just today's haul.

Majiffy:

Pretend the questions you refuse to answer are coming from your top townread and will help nail the scum you want lynched, assuming you're town. Can you now please explain any of your reasoning? Because I'm just seeing a ton of deflection.

Most of it relies on his interactions with you and BBT in the first ten pages of the game.
All of my reads were pretty well set by then.

All of this and I still don't know why Majiffy was scumreading Beck. Tunneling isn't really a scumtell. Beck was not making a particularly good case on me, but that doesn't make him scum. His play feels townish. It did to you, too, BBT, until significantly later on when he kept tunneling me after I soft-claimed.

Those of you on my wagon or intending to hammer me: Who are you going to look at when I flip town? Cuz that's a reality you're going to have to face.

I don't particularly like this appeal to emotion here. Also, I have intent to hammer on you, Majiffy. Explaining everything you can about your reads and claiming would be a good idea at this point.

[Scripten]

It's not an AtE. It's a serious question.

It's the way it's phrased that bugs me.

[Scripten]

Btw, obstinacy in the face of reasonable requests is kind of a Town tell

So you saying that everyone in this game is town, then?

[Scripten]

Holy shit.

Waiting for Grib to post, but I think I've figured this out.

Scripten, was this ever anything you intended to elaborate on? insanity asked for clarification and I don't think you ever brought it up again.

Oh, I thought you guys knew what I meant after I asked my questions. You and BBT were pushing roughly the same case on each other, an it was all based around separate interpretations of "anti-town" and "scummy." I thought it was kinda funny, actually.

[Scripten]

Yes, it's very amusing in hindsight.

I don't find it that funny personally.

Obviously one of these is a scumslip.

[Scripten]

Oh, right, I promised to stop trying to make jokes in this thread, didn't I? Apologies, that was just humor.

[Scripten]

I'm pretty much ready to hammer at any point.

[Scripten]

When I flip town, you lynch Beck. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

This applies in reverse also. If I'm lynched, lynch jiffy tomorrow cause I'm 100% flipping town

Damn it Beck, this sounds so fake to me. I thought I had nailed a read on you.

[Scripten]

It's not fake, I'm the towniest person in here. I knew you weren't going to hammer your scum buddy

Oh knock it off already.

Majiffy makes a post where he lays out, fairly well, why his wagon is a counterwagon to yours and someone unvotes him. So you come in and go "oh no... wait guys. Same with me!" While his felt like an attempt to get us to do VCA on your wagons, yours just feels like a plea for survival.

PEDIT: WHOA.

*Backspace*

Intent to hammer Beck

[Scripten]

A little weird to be putting pressure on someone this late, as if he didn't have enough already. Any reason you don't want to be caught on Beck's wagon, Mathdino?

[Scripten]

A little weird to be putting pressure on someone this late, as if he didn't have enough already. Any reason you don't want to be caught on Beck's wagon, Mathdino?

Any reason why you kept stalling hammering scum?

Because I'm not as sure as you are that jiffy is scum and I don't care how hard you scumread me, frankly. I would rather hammer correctly than try to appease people.

[Scripten]

Yes, it's because I want to reread the thread and you stating 'intent to hammer' makes me worried you will before I'm done. Trust me, I'll hammer him when I'm done.

So you are going to take your time to reread and hammer me no matter what?

It'll be interesting to see what he does if I vote Majiffy again.

[Scripten]

. I would rather hammer correctly than try to appease people.

This person is not the person who just gave intent to hammer over a non scummy post...

Do you read everything at face value?

[Scripten]

Scripten, why are you suddenly unwilling to vote? Did I read your pedit correctly in that you originally voted but deleted that?

Because I got a sudden case of cold feet on Beck's wagon due to events outside of his behavior. You read my pedit incorrectly.

[Scripten]

. I would rather hammer correctly than try to appease people.

This person is not the person who just gave intent to hammer over a non scummy post...

Do you read everything at face value?

Yes

Don't.

[Scripten]

Hm.

VOTE: Majiffy

I'm ready for anyone to hammer, preferably Mathdino.

[Scripten]

Replies in bold.

Wait what? What are you trying to achieve?

Gettin' reads.

Why would I hammer someone I just told you I'm townreading?

I don't think you will.

Why did you state intent to hammer 3 times, back off his wagon, and suddenly vote jiffy again?

Gettin' reads.

No one hammer yet.

[Scripten]

Wait shit Finn's not voting Majiffy.

Can someone unvote jiffy please.

Calm down. Nobody's going to quickhammer him.

[Scripten]

Hahaha.

Wow, I totally called that. Beck, you should come back to the Majiffy wagon. I love how this is actually putting more pressure on Mathdino than it is Majiffy.

[Scripten]

To be fair, I kind of feel the same way about you, Scripten. Even so, it's not really something I want to touch toDay because wine and paranoia make for bad decisions.

What, that I'm bothered by the Majiffy wagon? (HINT: I'm not.) Do you not see what just happened? Actually, I can understand missing it. Drunk mafia is a ton of fun, but it's playing on hard mode.

Guys, Majiffy lynch is best lynch. It will give us a ton of information and is probably a scum lynch.

[Scripten]

Yet somehow my actions were what caused him to (finally) vote Majiffy after saying he would 3 or 4 times, and completely nix his read on Beck.

This is legit hilarious. You're so close, Mathdino, but not quite on target just yet.

[Scripten]

Yeah, the Majiffy -> Mathdino connection is bullshit. Not seeing that logical progression

What progression do you see in the last two pages or so?

Insanity:

I wanted more information to come out of that lynch. I feel like it's reached a point where it would be very informative.

[Scripten]

Tell me, what's the motivation for scum!Majiffy to be a stubborn douchbag? There isn't one. The path of least resistance would have been to produce some decent reads, play nice, and participate normally. It totally would have undermined the core of the case against him. He didn't, and there's just no scum motivation not to

I don't know. Majiffy has a pretty well-known reputation for his style of gameplay. If he were to play that way, it may not have had any effect. At this point, it would be beneficial for scum!majiffy to be as hard on information as possible. He'd want to avoid giving town anything to go on after his lynch.

[Scripten]

Just chiming in in the middle of writing up a summary, that Majiffy is always a stubborn douchebag, and that's why we love him. Not alignment indicative.

Can you explain your townread on him, then? Is it really because of the counterwagon argument?

[Scripten]

So what if majiffy was a different counterwagon to who pine thought he was?

It could affect whether it was a scum-driven wagon. I don't think it is, though.

Mathdino, I don't see it that way. What I see happening is that he realized that there was a chance that he could not be lynched and went for it. You asked me to hammer, he posted his counterwagon post, you unvoted.

I didn't like the look of that, so I called Beck out on his next post and watched you vote him, allegedly for pressure. (Why would being at L-1 be more pressure now?) As soon as I make intent for hammer, you back right off. You're happy to push for a Beck lynch, but you don't want to be caught on it so obviously. When my vote came back onto Majiffy, you panicked and went so far as to suggest running me up to lynch again. I'm pretty sure that it's around this point that everything started dawning on you. Suddenly I'm not so hard town to you and suddenly voting a softclaimed PR isn't such a bad thing. (512)

PEDIT: Wow, you want to force me to hardclaim, too? That's ballsy. I'm almost impressed at the audacity.

[Scripten]

Guys, Majiffy lynch is best lynch. It will give us a ton of information and is probably a scum lynch.

What does Majiffys townflip give you?

It tells me I'm wrong, at the very least.

[Scripten]

I went after him for this, which is blatantly scummy.

That looks more like Beck just being Beck.

And yes, around that point is when I just went "Holy shit, wtf has Scripten been doing for the past 5 pages, why is he not explaining how he can confirm himself, he acts like he won't be NK'd anyway so he might as well explain to get Beck to stop tunneling, what's the deal with his wagon flipping, etc etc". I tend to take reaction tests outside of RVS ones at face value because to not do so is dangerous (I would've been so pissed if you hammered Beck anyway).

You trying to fish a reaction out of me seems plausible enough. I am still confused as to why you're so averse to hardclaim when you've been softclaiming from very early on; had you not been run up, it's likely you would've been NK'd just for that. I also appreciate how you choose to mock me for not calling what your actual BS was.

I'm not discussing my role any more today. You'll get your confirmation tomorrow or you won't. Lynch me if the latter happens. Until that point, I'm going to keep trying to nail scum. I apologize if my 990 was too harsh, but trying to get me to hardclaim is pretty silly/scummy considering the context.

[Scripten]

Beck seems pretty paranoid, which I tend to think town. Or 3rd party. Are we thinking 3rd party is a thing for reals?

Interesting. I never considered the third party angle. Why do you think his play might correspond with a third party?

This post bothers me. Scripten has his vote on beck, but this comment doesn't assume beck is scum. Which makes the comment about being defensive not fit. It's an extremely mixed narrative.

Scum make reads, too. They're just fabricated instead of genuine like the town's reads. That said, I no longer scumread Beck like I had then, for clarity.

@Scripten - how many reads would you expect someone to have formed at the point where you asked beck for more reads and less setup spec?

I didn't have a number in mind. I picked a player that stood out and pushed for more information to move the game further. It... worked, but not exactly how I was expecting it to, tbh.

262 - Scripten, why were you more sure Pine was town here?

His reaction to my vote read townie. Specifically, that he reacted at all. Seems to me that scum would, upon realizing that my vote was an obvious reaction test, just avoid commenting on it at all.

Do you base your reads on how many scum think are in the game?

Not sure what you mean by this?

[Scripten]

Third party was being talked about at that point, which was why it occurred to me. Thinking about my own tendencies when I get a 3rd party role, I could see a 3rd Party player jumping hard on every little thing. As the game is unfolding so far, I'm not getting the feeling of odd sorts of eddies in the reads that multifaction usually generates.

I've actually never played a game here with a third party before, so I haven't any clue on how to tell if they are in the game or how to hunt them yet.

You weren't pushing him about fake reads. It felt like you were pushing him about being bad town, not scum. That sometimes happens to me. I won't realize I've flipped over to a town read until I actually read my post and see that I'm talking to the person like I think they are town. Sometimes I do it intentionally to see what sorts of echoes I get back when I treat a player like they're town.

Hm... I was scumreading him at that point, I remember for a fact. Perhaps a subconscious thing, but I can't really postulate further.

What was your read prior to that?

Light town read, close to null. He moved into a more solid town slot after that test.

I wondered because at the point where your scumpile had 2 players, mine had 3. They can't all be scum unless there's something really odd about the game set up, but I'm not pushing one of them to null just because 3 are too many. So I was wondering if you were fitting your reads into your expectations for the set up.

I'll be honest, I've been treating this game like a 2-scum setup, just because that's what I'm used to. If it were a 3-scum setup, things may change, but I'd need some time to think about interactions before making any judgement calls.

Also, was your reference to (486) a typo or a joke? I mean, the mod is the most confirmed alignment we've got in this game, for sure.

[Scripten]

Beck is being way too self-defensive and his vote on Scripten is super weak. If BBT flips scum, Beck dies next.

That actually wasn't Mathdino. He just put a spoiler in a spoiler due to quotes and broke the tags.

[Scripten]

It's a Tuesday night. Sounds like a great night for all of us to get together and drunk post. I have a bottle of wine at home just waiting for me.

[Scripten]

Jurassic Park distributed drinking party go!

[Scripten]

Hm, Insanity was a good player, but I was definitely expecting someone else to get NK'd.

VOTE: Grib

Hi Grib. You are my first choice for scum. Explain to me why you just sat back over the course of the end of D1 rather than trying to solve the game.

Mathdino:

I'm town. Want confirmation? Ask Beck. He is my townie confirmation. Give me your most detailed read on Grib, please.

BBT:

I notice you've shown up in a few other games. Are you out of VLA?

Fferyllt:

What are your reads today, with the flips we've got under consideration.

[Scripten]

Dammit, are you telling me Scripten's a friggin fruit vendor?

Not quite. But don't worry about it. Unless you're scum.

[Scripten]

Hey Beck, can you give a percentage of how likely it is that I'm town due to my role for everyone? Because it's pretty likely and I kind of need your help here. (Yeah, irony, I know.)

Anyway, BBT, are you still up for a Grib lynch? For serious this time. No reaction tests, promise.

[Scripten]

PEdit - I think Grib is town Scripten.

Why this?

I'd be semi-okay with a Mathdino lynch, but I'm not totally sold yet.

[Scripten]

Spoiler: Pulling from these posts

Funny, that's exactly who I was expecting apart from Scripten. insanity's been more of an outsider to the clusterfuck all game. A flip on anyone inside {BBT, Grib, Scripten, Pine, Beck} would give us a TON of info.

Scripten

, I fully expect confirmation in your first post.

Hm, Insanity was a good player, but I was definitely expecting someone else to get NK'd.

VOTE: Grib

Hi Grib. You are my first choice for scum. Explain to me why you just sat back over the course of the end of D1 rather than trying to solve the game.

Mathdino:

I'm town. Want confirmation? Ask Beck. He is my townie confirmation. Give me your most detailed read on Grib, please.

BBT:

I notice you've shown up in a few other games. Are you out of VLA?

Fferyllt:

What are your reads today, with the flips we've got under consideration.

I would like to add that I am thoroughly confused by what's going on.

So, Beck and Scripten know each other to be town? That narrows the pool nicely.

I'm still good with a Math lynch.

PEdit - I think Grib is town Scripten.

I'm guessing Neighborizer. It's the only thing that really fits

I've seen Mafia Neighborizers before, it's not a guaranteed Town role. That said, Mafia Neighborizers are rare, Town Neighborizers are merely uncommon

Vote: Grib

Now that the moron convention over Majiffy vs Beck has concluded, can we lynch scum?

Given there's a wagon forming on me and BBT is backing off, I'll say he's town for toDay.

The Lynch Pool to Victory is now [fferyllt, Mathdino, Pine].

I thought it might be useful to see everyone's current lynch pools. I grabbed the posts I'm referencing in the spoiler above if anyone is curious.

Scripten: Grib, Mathdino, BBT
Beck: Grib, Pine
Mathdino: fferyllt, Grib, Pine
Grib: fferyllt, Mathdino, Pine
Pine: Grib
BBT: Mathdino

Some facts

- Grib shows up on everyone's list so far except for BBT
- Pine and Mathdino show up three times. Beck, Mathdino, and Grib would be alright with a Pine lynch. Scripten, Grib, and BBT would be okay with a Mathdino lynch.
- Fferyllt show up twice. Grib and Mathdino would vote her.
- Scripten is the only one ready to vote BBT.
- Scripten is not in any lynch pools right now
(By the way, if my list is not correct, please let me know and I'll post a more correct list.)

[Scripten]

Scripten I don't see anything at all prior to post 1186 indicating you'd be interested in voting BBT. What changed?

I reread his reversal on Grib. It doesn't flow like it should, especially considering what I know of BBT's play. He is known for hopping around and tunneling like mad. However, I've never seen him succeed in an argument, have his target concede a point (in his mind or not; not debating who won the BBT-Grib 1v1) and then have him back off. Analyzing the lynch pools reinforces my gut feeling on his playstyle.

Revised Lynch Pools

Scripten: Grib, Mathdino, BBT
Beck: Grib, Pine
Mathdino: Grib, Pine
Grib: fferyllt, Mathdino, Pine
Pine: Grib, BBT
BBT: Mathdino
Fferyllt: Grib

More Facts

- Everyone wants a Grib lynch right now, save BBT and Grib himself.
- 2 of the 3 people that want a Pine lynch would also want a Grib lynch. (Grib is the only one who doesn't, for obvious reasons.)
- None of the players who want a Mathdino lynch have any other lynch candidates in common.
- I just realized that my two other lynch candidates want to have a Mathdino lynch... Maybe I'm not so happy with that one.

[Scripten]

Oh, interesting.

Just noticed that nobody included Beck in their lynch pools. So neither Beck nor myself is in any lynch pool. This is a useful tool. I 'll have to remember it.

[Scripten]

Lynch Pools (Lynches spawned from tunnels are bolded; Reaction-test/Associatives/PoE are italicized)

Scripten:

Grib

,

Mathdino

, BBT
Beck:

Grib

, Pine
Mathdino: Grib, Pine
Grib: fferyllt, Mathdino, Pine
Pine: Grib,

BBT

BBT: Mathdino
Fferyllt: Grib

If anyone remembers a person entering their lynch pool because of PoE, reactions, or associations, let me know. I think I got all the tunnels, but correct me if I'm wrong, please.

PEDIT -

Beck:

We should also check the wagon from before the end of the night, keeping in mind that BBT was on VLA during that time.

Actually, just looked and BBT is the only player besides Majiffy on the Beck wagon. Finnlaw was there until Fferyllt replaced in and unvoted him.

[Scripten]

Except that is literally BBT's playstyle. Tunneling, hopping, and hypocrisy.

Based on Scripten's meta defense?

Yes.

A meta defense that I don't think is applicable right now due to various diversions from the norm?

[Scripten]

@fferyllt
Oh, right. You replaced Finn. That makes this easier.

VOTE: Mathdino

...

......

Okay. Welp.

[Scripten]

Agreed. I find it really odd how sure Scripten was that he wouldn't get roleblocked though.

Scripten I'd like to hear your thoughts about this.

Honestly, didn't really factor the idea of being roleblocked into my plans. Suppose it would have ended in my mislynch, but it was a risk I was willing to take.

[Scripten]

Honestly, didn't really factor the idea of being roleblocked into my plans. Suppose it would have ended in my mislynch, but it was a risk I was willing to take.

What was the risk?

Well, I could have not claimed and been lynched or risk an attack at night after soft claiming. Being roleblocked would result in a mislynch on D2, I suppose, but that was just trading a mislynch on D1 for one on D2.

[Scripten]

This sounds a little like Shaheed's Law.

Maybe! Either way, it worked well enough so I'll not look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Scripten]

Alright, who's got townread (anyone you will not even compromise lynch) lists for me? I want to know where everyone stands right now.

Also this:

Lynch Pools (Lynches spawned from tunnels are bolded; Reaction-test/Associatives/PoE are italicized)

Scripten:

Grib

,

Mathdino

, BBT
Beck:

Grib

,

Pine

,

BBT

Mathdino:

Grib

,

Pine

Grib: Mathdino, Pine
Pine: Grib,

BBT

BBT: Mathdino,

Beck

Fferyllt: Grib, BBT

As always, correct me if this is a misrep.

Town Pools

Scripten: Fferyllt, Beck
Beck: Scripten
Mathdino: Scripten
Grib: Scripten, BBT, Beck
Pine: Scripten
BBT: Scripten, Grib
Fferyllt: Scripten

[Scripten]

I'm not brokering for a concensus lynch. I want Grib or BBT lynched, (Mostly Grib) but I also want to know exactly where everyone on the wagon says they stand right now. I'm not sure how that translates to brokering a lynch?

[Scripten]

your posts look like you want to find out how much support there is for lynching each player.

Nah, I want to see who is putting their chips where.

Question, btw. Do you think Grib and BBT are likely to be unaligned?

[Scripten]

Alright, so people are practically silent right now. This is not cool.

UNVOTE: Grib
VOTE: BBT

[Scripten]

Beck/BBT also doesn't make sense.

I don't know if I agree with this. If BBT were to flip scum today, I'd be interested in going for a Pine or Beck lynch. More of a gut feeling, especially without a flip, though.

[Scripten]

BBT is unwilling to lynch him.

But you're not willing to lynch BBT?

This sense no maketh.

[Scripten]

Eww.

I really hate leading questions like that.

[Scripten]

Done yet or are you just stalling for the sake of stalling?

[Scripten]

Hey Scripten, I forgot to ask you about this earlier. Are you willing to explain this now? You seemed extremely confident that you wouldn't get shot, but today you're chalking it up to Shaheed's Law.

Played off of confidence and got lucky. That's all.

[Scripten]

Where the hell is everybody?

fferyllt, any word on an update about those things you wanted to cover regarding BBT?

Grib, what was your reaction test for and what came of it?

[Scripten]

Alright, if no one is going to play the damn game, can we just make a lynch happen so we can get information?

How about all y'all sheep my BBT vote and we can get today over with.

[Scripten]

Fferyllt:

Stuff please? I really hate how this game has stalled.

[Scripten]

Let's hope we're right on this.

This phrase really rubs me wrong

Why do people only start giving a shit about my lynch targets once I've moved on to someone else.

Seriously. Why.

It's the flow of the game, man. Just gotta interact.

I am kinda hating Fferyllt flaking on this game.

[Scripten]

Catch 22, right?

She said she had stuff, though, and then just kinda left us hanging instead of posting it so we could interact with that additional information.

[Scripten]

That's L-1.

[Scripten]

*Points at current vote*

We like this wagon now, no?

[Scripten]

Thanks guys!

For my birthday present, I think scum should come and out themselves.

[Scripten]

I don't understand why the Pine wagon was so easy. I also don't understand why the BBT wagon is so difficult. It's concerning.

[Scripten]

I think he's Town based on behavior, you seem to have eliminated him based on alleged role, despite the fact that Mafia Neighborizers exist.

Pine, I want you to very, very clearly tell me, preferably with quotes and some damn good analysis, where you're getting the idea that I'm a Neighborizer from.

[Scripten]

By the way, I would ask that nobody else discuss the subject until Pine has answered to avoid affecting his answer to me.

[Scripten]

I'm guessing Neighborizer. It's the only thing that really fits

I've seen Mafia Neighborizers before, it's not a guaranteed Town role. That said, Mafia Neighborizers are rare, Town Neighborizers are merely uncommon

Vote: Grib

Now that the moron convention over Majiffy vs Beck has concluded, can we lynch scum?

Right, okay.

This quote makes me feel better. Carry on.

Apologies, Pine, but I don't feel it prudent to continue discussing my role. It'll make sense eventually, promise.

[Scripten]

So we're gonna lynch BBT now, right? Or is this game just going to keep stalling over and over again?

[Scripten]

Scripten, why did you choose Beck as the person to confirm you as town?

Seemed like the best choice. His tunnel on a townie (me) made it unlikely that scum would target him.

[Scripten]

You got no impression from the talk you had with him that he was scum?

Nope. Not really. If anything, he felt significantly more town after the night.

[Scripten]

Pine:

Do you consider my play to be "coasting?" If so, why?

Oh, and I was looking through older posts and wanted to reply to this:

Yeah, probably. We're not up against a deadline yet, and I only just jumped back in on this. I like to squeeze what I can from each day, rather than lurching wildly from one rabid tunnel to the next

I'm still trying to figure out how the Grib wagon, which was nearly unanimous, disintegrated

It disintegrated because it was too easy a wagon. Grib might be scum, but BBT's behavior regarding that wagon was weird and doesn't rely on associative reads to be scummy.

[Scripten]

It disintegrated because it was too easy a wagon. Grib might be scum, but BBT's behavior regarding that wagon was weird and doesn't rely on associative reads to be scummy.

What was weird about my behaviour?

Didn't feel like a natural progression. If you ISO me, I think I've explained it. Would do it myself but I have to leave shortly.

[Scripten]

Scripten

: No, your behavior does not look like coasting. What I said is that the claim looks like one that scum

could

use to coast. I'm much more concerned with two things: First, your reluctance to elaborate on whatever's going on with you and Beck, when you said D1 that your role would confirm you as Town. It didn't, per Beck. Second, your hard push back on me when I said Neighborizer. It is by far the most likely role, and the only one within explicitly Normal mechanics. Given that the hard push looks really weird. It doesn't actually make any sense as Town. How exactly would I have arrived at that point without just reasoning it out? Doesn't make much sense. That said, everything together suggests the Town side of null

Okay, I guess that makes sense, but I question you bringing it up if it didn't apply here and not clarifying as much until I confronted you about it.

What do I need to elaborate on about Beck? My problem was with the way you phrased 1463. It felt really similar to discussion with Beck in my QT. I had forgotten that you'd mentioned Neighborizer before the night started.

Scripten again

: BBTs move away from Grib makes perfect sense, when you consider that BBT is a relatively new player. He's either Grib's scumbuddy trying to bail out his mate, or he's an investigative role with an inno. Guess what? He hasn't defended Grib enough for it to be the latter. Get on board

I'm less experienced than BBT, but I saw these possibilities. In fact, I'd say that BBT is more likely than Grib to be scum because of this. (BBT has no inno on Grib.)

[Scripten]

And before you say BBT, just wanna note that Grib is townreading him and fferyllt wants to lynch Grib or Pine

Hm? How does the former follow from the latter?

[Scripten]

I find it really interesting that BBT and Grib are currently the hardest wagons to push. Pine's wagon is WAY too easy, and I'm suspecting that is because he is a mislynch.

[Scripten]

Pine's wagon is easy because he has a whole 2 votes?

How about the fact that nearly everyone is willing to lynch Grib?

How is Pine's wagon easier than Grib's?

Pine got run up really quickly before, if you recall.

Come to think of it, Grib is a pretty easy lynch, you're right. I forget that it's only you and Mathdino who aren't ready to lynch him.

[Scripten]

This is silly.

BBT:

What is your scumread on Pine? I can't seem to find anything except that you thought Pine was defending Grib, then you accused him of buddying Grib. It seems like, regardless of whether Grib is scum or not, you're scumreading Pine for his interactions with Grib, even after you attacked him earlier for confronting Grib. (You said it felt contrived IIRC.)

[Scripten]

Fferyllt:

Would you be interested in my BBT wagon? Today is just getting monotonous. If we end up with a deadline lynch again I'm probably gonna lose my mind. He doesn't have any reads that aren't associative or PoE, and that bugs me. It looks like it bugs you. Come on and join us.

[Scripten]

Fferyllt:

Would you be interested in my BBT wagon? Today is just getting monotonous. If we end up with a deadline lynch again I'm probably gonna lose my mind. He doesn't have any reads that aren't associative or PoE, and that bugs me. It looks like it bugs you. Come on and join us.

There is stuff he's done that does ping my townsense. Not a lot, but some. Mostly the way he interacted with Grib's gamestate starting point regarding eating habits vs alignment. If Grib is town, then it makes no sense whatsoever for BBT to have so dramatically have flipped his read. So, I'm left with either scum-BBT bussed scum-Grib out of the chute on day 1 for no apparent reason, or scum-BBT flipped his manufactured read on a relatively easy mislynch for no apparent reason.

Or, he's not scum.

In my scum game where I was on his team, (It's on my wiki page, if you're curious.) he used a similar tactic to push a wagon on me right out of RVS. (Pretty much the same part of the day that he pushed Grib.) Obviously, the tactic was slightly different here, but not enough that I'm willing to discount BBT being scum for it.

[Scripten]

I'm starting to feel like a Pine/BBT scumteam would actually be fairly possible. Of course, that would rely on a really ballsy fakebus by BBT. (Which I could see in his playstyle, tbh.)

[Scripten]

There's also the weird switch on Grib, but I could see scum!BBT pulling something like that for town cred in this game.

[Scripten]

I am disappoint.

I was hoping to find a smoking gun in that game. Instead I found this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6075725. He claimed to have voted you to move the game along by getting someone to L-2.

His push on you was anemic compared to the way he went after Grib early this game.

Maybe I'm missing something. Aside from voting you early and exchanging a couple posts with you prior to moving his vote over to town, was there something in that game you wanted to point out?

There was less in that game to go on than there allegedly was here. BBT (legitimately or not) thought that Grib had scumslipped, while in that game he (illegitimately) thought that my RVS questions were scummy. I'm not sure if you could ever find a 1 to 1 gameplay example from meta. And I'm not saying that BBT's meta implicates him as scum, only that it shows that he'll make pushes on a scumbuddy during D1, so discounting him as scum is folly.

There's also the likelihood that Grib is not his scumbuddy.

[Scripten]

His reason for backing off you in that game was scummy for a player who tunnels as town. His reasons for backing off Grib look way more organic to me.

I don't think I can vote there today. I don't think I could vote him at all other than PoE or deadline lynch. And in the case of the latter I'd be pissed about it.

I'm doing my best to avoid us having a deadline lynch. Who are your top scumreads beside Grib? In most any situation, I'd be okay with a Grib lynch, but there's a problem there.

BBT is, IIRC, the only player who is not okay with a Grib lynch, so unless he is Grib's scumbuddy, it just doesn't make sense for Grib to be scum. However, it seems that BBT's motivation for backing off of the Grib wagon appears too towny for him to be scum. You can understand my frustration here?

[Scripten]

Should I claim or whatever.

Go ahead and claim, IMO. Anyone have a problem with that?

[Scripten]

Honestly, I don't have much problem with it. Although, we'll probably not see real claims from scum.

(Also, my condolences to you and your family, Fferyllt. Missed your post from earlier.)

[Scripten]

Fferyllt:

How would a mass flavorclaim be beneficial to scum? Serious question, btw.

[Scripten]

(if no one claims those, they prolly are, especially since the

Spino was scum

).

What do you mean by this?

[Scripten]

(if no one claims those, they prolly are, especially since the

Spino was scum

).

What do you mean by this?

Oh, nevermind. Reread the intro flavor.

[Scripten]

Mod said diet isn't alignment-indicative. I think Mathdino just wants to out the Raptor and/or T-Rex. (Though I feel like fakeclaims are probably provided.) I'm not sure if it can really hurt, though I'm semi-claimed already.

[Scripten]

I'm Brachiosaurus. I'm like super big and stuff. My strengths are my great mass and height. I'm an herbivore, but I'm not scared of carnivores or omnivores. I'm apparently a peacekeeper.

Also, Google Chrome is very silly, since it keeps trying to autocorrect Brachiosaurus to Brontosaurus. (Brontosaurus never existed!)

[Scripten]

Pine/BBT scumteam, perhaps?

[Scripten]

Pine:

Guess we'll find out on his flip, won't we?

[Scripten]

So it looks like we have one more lynch before LyLo. Beck was fairly unanimously considered town, so his flip isn't particularly useful.

Anyone have any flashes of intuition overnight? I'm currently in the mood for a Pine lynch.

[Scripten]

VOTE: Pine

Nope. Don't believe that claim.

[Scripten]

Scripten you have no idea how scummy that vote is. I expect town-you to be far more cautious about this.

Because I want to be sure on you, can you hardclaim now and provide night actions? There's not much point withholding that at this point.

What? I'm a Neighborizer. That was pretty obvious from yesterday, wasn't it?

[Scripten]

What's the rush? A quicklynch will nail scum.

[Scripten]

Fine.

UNVOTE: Pine

[Scripten]

Love how Pine has his vote on BBT right out of the gate.

[Scripten]

Fferyllt really should show up soon.

[Scripten]

Mathdino:

Disregarding PR claims, who's scum out of Pine or Fferyllt?

[Scripten]

Well, Fferyllt claimed Watcher in the neighborhood topic. Hate to be the one hardclaiming her, but this is LyLo and we need to catch scum.

So either Fferyllt or Pine is scum, and they both have similar claims out right now.