Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Who are they? Will Town Find them?

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, Newbie, Silverwolf(L-3)
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, (L-6)
St. Constantine The Hermit-blindmewithscience, Mathdino (L-5)
Newbie-
Malakittens-Wisdom (L-6)
SilverWolf-acryon (L-6)
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-Not_Mafia, St Constantine The Hermit (L-5)
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, malakittens

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA

What's there to do after all that stargazing? Yep. Bowling.

[acryon]

I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.

There's a disconnect here for me to where I don't understand why your reads are the way they are.

The assertion that scum will

never

lead a wagon seems bananas to me. It's an absolute and it doesn't sound right, especially considering the wgeurts push itself.

I never said this. I said

I don't see

scum leading a wagon

like wgeurts'

. It just doesn't make any sense from a scum standpoint to be the one at the helm of a lynch like wgeurts, because then you just look terrible if he flips town. I would be shocked if scum didn't think that through. The only reason, I think, scum would ever be driving the wagon on someone like wgeurts is if he actually was scum. I certainly don't think scum will

never

lead a wagon, but I don't think they would ever lead a wagon on someone like wgeurts, who is such an easy lynch-target. It would just end up looking too opportunistic.

Take a quick look through Wisdom's ISO and tell me what kind of town goal he's working towards here. He's hammering on the same points on wgeurts and demanding explanations from everyone else all the while not actually engaging with anyone in any productive way.

Let me remind you that this is the same person who got mad at me after my first post for not "engaging" him.

If this "engage people" thing is

really

his philosophy, I would expect to see a lot more of it and more importantly, I would expect to see products of this process in the form of more refined reads. Instead I see some mealy-mouth rhetoric with Malakittens and softballing of blindmewithscience. There's no commentary on how he thinks the game is going as a whole and the questions he

does

ask lack impact. There's plenty of scum motivation for talking a lot without actually contributing to town progress, which is what I think Wisdom has been doing all game.

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum. If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two. Thoughts?

Considering a townread, I'm not townreading Wisdom. He is a null to me at this point. My thoughts on the alignment of Wisdom based on his interaction with wgeurts is based completely on wgeurts alignment at this point.

Ugh. I really want to vote Silver's slot again, but I really doubt there'll be a replacement for her anytime soon.

My vote is remaining on Silver, because her replacing out doesn't change the fact that I thought her play was scummy. She is still the scummiest person to me at this point in time, so I'm only going to change my vote to someone I think may be scummier. Although St Constantine is working pretty hard to change that with his mason-comments and general lack of real contribution.

[Malakittens]

Yeah promise after work today! <:
I wanted to sleep in yesterday on my day off.

[Wisdom]

@mod You still have me as doublevoter.. not voting wgeurts anymore

[TellTaleHeart]

What's there to do after all that stargazing? Yep. Bowling.

Funny

Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

Another one talking about connections in a mason setup. Seriously stop it.

Damn, I didn't notice this, good catch. He even said that we should stop talking about masons when the thing that started that discussion was wgeurts's associative tells.

Are you even thinking about what you're parroting before you do so?

It's not a good point at all.

Here's the original context of what Constantine said:

The lord gives me the authority to cooperate. Mathdino, patron saint of foolishness, it is you who is arrogant. Arrogant to the passion of christ.
You should be stigmatized for you ignorance. Don't you realize you're the main reason why god wants VictorDeAngelo Dead?
Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

MathDino being Wisdom's yes-man is really starting to get on my nerves.

[acryon]

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

569: Victor is scum with Mathdino, vote victor!
571: Actually, Mathdino and Silverwolf are scum!

Should we lynch thy Mathdino, or thy Silverwolf.

And then unvotes Victor. Why was victor unvoted here and why did a vote for neither Mathdino or Silverwolf take its place?
576: Now the vote comes for Mathdino, Mathdino is definitely scum! Reiterates in 577.
595: Now Mathdino is town because of his emotional response?
597: States connection between Mathdino, Silverwolf, and Victor. So is Dino town or is he on a scum-team with Victor and Silverwolf?

I strongly dislike when players have scum-reads that are

so

dependent on being a team, and I dislike it even more when players then back down on one of these because of something that is certainly not redeeming(an emotional response from Dino). This problem is made worse in the set-up we are playing in, as pointing out connections could be leading scum to the mason-team, which is terrible considering how important it is late-game for us to keep them safe.

So are the three of them scum, or are they not? Which one is the best lynch?

[TellTaleHeart]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

[acryon]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

That's fair.

[Wisdom]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

How so? He was pointing out a connection between Mathdino and Victor, no?

[TellTaleHeart]

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

I'm not arguing in favor of Constantine's point. I'm saying that Wisdom's insipid remark was out-of-context and not really applicable to what he was quoting.

How so? He was pointing out a connection between Mathdino and Victor, no?

The

whole

train of thought needs to be here.
You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.

not actually engaging with anyone

Is there a reason for this quite obvious misrep?

I am so over this.

There's a difference between prodding people for reactions and just being glib and snippy. Wisdom falls squarely in the latter category and I'm shocked that people are telling me otherwise. Here's a question for the Wisdom defenders: What are Wisdom's opinions and where's the tangible productivity from his supposed efforts? From looking at his activity, I certainly can't tell. I see the recent change in heart on the wgeurts read for this apparent "discovery" that wgeurts is actually a newbie and not just playing the newbie card. I thought that whole argument was patently absurd from the beginning anyway and certainly shouldn't have been some earth-shattering revelation to anyone. I see that he's calling Mala scum, and I think it's just in an attempt to subvert what I said to acryon because it happens to come

after

I called his end of that interaction "mealy-mouthed." He doles out a townread read to his fanboy MathDino who's being townread by almost the entire game anyway. I'm apparently a vague afterthought townread, but I'm sure that's going to conveniently dry up really quickly. blindmewithscience, acryon, and FinnLaw are completely absent and Victor and Newbie haven't been visited in a while.

How can anyone extract any kind of curiosity or inquisitiveness from his posting? The quote above the preceding paragraph is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Even the wording of the sentence is passive-aggressive.

There's no attempt to prove me wrong, reference to past posts, or accompanying explanation. It's just this short, smart ass comeback that's very similar to the one given to Malakittens a while ago.

If anyone wants to show me where Wisdom works to produce better reads or advance the town, I'll be happy to look at it. I'm not finding it on my own, though.

[Wisdom]

You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.

While I didn't look at what exactly he was talking about, I don't doubt two masons would vote each other to muddy the waters. In any case, connections before any flip happens should not happen, especially in this setup. This was my main point.

[acryon]

While I personally don't

totally

subscribe to the sentiment expressed by Wisdom, both Finnlaw and Mathdino both expressed their agreement. Do you think Finn and Math are scum following scum-Wisdom? Because, while I agree that Wisdom's representation of what Constantine was saying was a little misconstrued, there have been multiple other players that have echoed the sentiment, so I think it's a difficult argument to make that it was scummy from Wisdom.

Regarding the rest with Wisdom, I've already expressed my thoughts on it. I definitely can't say I am confident he is town, but I see more of his play coming from (probably) misguided town than from scum, especially the hard wgeurts wagon.

You quoted his post and then complained about "making connections." The clear implication from this is that he shouldn't have made the connection because masons could give a false positive on this. That's not applicable because the specific "connections" Constantine was talking about was two scum voting each other to distance, something I'm assuming two masons wouldn't do.

While I didn't look at what exactly he was talking about, I don't doubt two masons would vote each other to muddy the waters

. In any case, connections before any flip happens should not happen, especially in this setup. This was my main point.

Agree with the unbolded, strongly disagree with the bolded.

[Wisdom]

I certainly can't tell.

Then ask me. Even when you respond to me you're talking in the third person.

[Wisdom]

I see that he's calling Mala scum, and I think it's just in an attempt to subvert what I said to acryon because it happens to come after I called his end of that interaction "mealy-mouthed.

Somehow I expected you to say such a thing. Unfortunately for you, I've been suspicious about Mala for a while now and it's evident in the thread, and that's before you said anything.

[Wisdom]

I'm apparently a vague afterthought townread, but I'm sure that's going to conveniently dry up really quickly.

You're right, it is drying up. The way you post and avoid interacting with me while tunneling on me is getting annoying and I am starting to consider that it's a scum tactic.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm apparently a vague afterthought townread, but I'm sure that's going to conveniently dry up really quickly.

You're right, it is drying up. The way you post and avoid interacting with me while tunneling on me is getting annoying and I am starting to consider that it's a scum tactic.

This is the same rehashed, defensive stuff from the beginning of the game and I'm not tunneling. You're confronting a threat, not actually evaluating. If you were, you would give reads on the nearly half the playerlist you have yet to even touch instead of being worried about sounding authoritative.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.

@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

TTH, you're being kind of one sided with the wisdom wagon. Just don't let the sixth deadly sin, pride, to overcome you.
I want us to be far more open minded. Close Mindedness helps no one.

Mathdino, restate your case on silverwolf. If the new replacement is pressured, will you join the wagon even if no new information would of been presented?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Mala, when you get on, please tell me why you scum read acyron.

[TellTaleHeart]

The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum.

If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two.

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, what's the basis for this? I don't follow.

[acryon]

I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.

@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.

Don't tell me how something you are doing is a town-tell; you're not exactly an unbiased source. Even if you were, what you were doing definitely is

not

a town tell. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would say it's a null, but in your case I'm not sure which way it is leaning. And it's not even about what you're doing being scummy; your flip-flopping and unclear ideas call into question your credibility, which is bad for town.

And you have now multiple times stated your thoughts that 2/3 of those players were inter-connected. And now you're saying

one

of them is scum? I can't be the only one that thinks you denying the idea that you aren't particularly trustworthy is disingenuous at best.

[acryon]

The rest of this is a lot better than the first part you said. Looking through Wisdom's ISO, I tried to look at it as if he was scum. If he is scum, I think that definitely at least one of Mala and wgeurts is scum.

If you think he is scum, I think he has to be bussing one of those two.

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, what's the basis for this? I don't follow.

Looking at Wisdom's ISO with the idea that he is scum, his hard push on wguerts and soft-push on mala leads me to believe that given Wisdom-scum, one of wgeurts/mala is definitely scum.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

^^ Okay, tell me, what 9 players (2/3) did I claim were connected. To my knowledge, I only claimed there was a scum connection between mathdino, silverwolf, and victor. Also, what you're doing this game isn't very productive. You're pretty much just bitching at a lot of people and not contributing anything useful, so please don't play the pro-town card.

Now let's only post about relevant things. Not who's the better player, la la la nonsense. It helps no one.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

TTH, just to save you some breath, the freemason alliance is pretty clear if it wasn't already. Just stop talking about it.
Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role, but it is pretty much the only one town has.
The only scenario I can imagine that involves you continuing this one sided wagon, is one in which you deduced up to the point I have.

[acryon]

^^ Okay, tell me, what 9 players (2/3) did I claim were connected. To my knowledge, I only claimed there was a scum connection between mathdino, silverwolf, and victor. Also, what you're doing this game isn't very productive. You're pretty much just bitching at a lot of people and not contributing anything useful, so please don't play the pro-town card.

Now let's only post about relevant things. Not who's the better player, la la la nonsense. It helps no one.

2/3 as in 2 or 3, since you hinted at 3-player connections and 2-player connections amongst Dino/Victor/Wolf