Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Don't be fooled! Those people hated each other!

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom- Riddleton(L-6)
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, (L-6)
St. Constantine The Hermit-blindmewithscience, Mathdino, wgeurts (L-4)
Newbie-
Malakittens-Wisdom (L-6)
Riddleton-acryon (L-6)
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-Not_Mafia, St Constantine The Hermit (L-5)
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, malakittens, TellTaleHeart, Newbie

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA

Everyone in the group quickly discovers that bowling shoes are gross.

[Not_Mafia]

Spoiler:

[Newbie]

After rereading the thread, these are my thoughts/questions/suspicions/whatever else.

Mathdino: He's thrown suspicion at quite a few people but has always backed them up with concrete, well explained reasons. All of his posts contain a great amount of substance and are generally town friendly. He's mostly consistent. I also like this.

There's only one thing that I wouldn't mind a more detailed explanation to.

@mathdino

What about the second half of Victor's ISO made you change your mind and read him as town? (post I'm referring to)

acryon: Didn't really like him answering a question directed towards mathdino at first, but I totally agree with his reasoning for doing it. His posts also made sense when calling wgeurts out for his contradictions earlier. The way he's engaging other players with substance-filled posts comes off as town.

On the other hand, the way that he went after Silverwolf did feel just a bit opportunistic. Point #2 of that entire post seems like reaching if acryon was referring to SW trying to get the wagon off of herself. Also, I don't like how he shares that he heavily thinks wgeurts is town but would still be alright with him getting lynched, even though that's not something he would prefer. Looking at it from a scum perspective, it would allow acryon to be okay with a townie getting lynched while being able to fall back on "well, I did say I didn't like the idea of voting him in the first place."

blindmewithscience: A good amount of substance-filled posts. He stayed consistent with calling out wgeurts to give answers to his questions. I don't like how this post is worded, though. I would be a hypocrite if I held against him the fact that he wanted to give wgeurts a chance for a good outlet since I did it myself, but how it's said is just weird. The way he chose to structure that sentence could be a possible scum slip. Although his defense of it is kind of convincing. He's another one who jumped on SW.

VictorDeAngelo: His early questioning of mathdino was odd, but he had a good point.

Um,

@VictorDeAngelo,

why did it take you a while to answer p ... d wgeurts?

[Newbie]

Shit. I didn't mean to post it yet.

[Newbie]

Hm. Could this be a way to clear some fellow mafia members and incriminate multiple townsfolk by using alignment flips?

SilverWolf: I can see people's points about her earlier posts mostly agreeing with other people's reasonings, but she did add a bit more her insight into things. ex. (I think she was even actually the first one to specifically mention a slayer's gambit), ex., ex., ex., ex..

On the other hand, her defense against mathdino, acryon, and Wisdom didn't come off too well. Who knows, maybe SW is just an emotional person, but it did not look good for her.

wgeurts: You already know how I feel about him. Thought the whole vote/unvote thing was really scummy, and then he continued to do really scummy things, that if he was scum seems things only scum that wants to purposefully get caught would do. Since my Wisdom read has changed, I am now on the fence about him.

@wguerts

Would you mind sharing all of your town/scum reads so far?

Not_Mafia: Don't really have much to say until he starts posting fully.

TTH: All I can say about her is that she comes off

extremely

town to the point that I would be thoroughly surprised and impressed if it turns out she's not. She has played a great town game, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of her posts.

Malakittens: What I found interesting is that she was one of the only people to right away declare that wgeurts is town after his self vote. She didn't even ask him for reads or anything. Is this a case of scum (malakittens) trying to vouch for a scum partner (wgeurts), or scum (malakittens) trying to capitalize on vouching for a townie (wgeurts)? The latter I can see the most. Note that this post came afterwards. No idea what to make of it.

A bit of fence sitting. Also, why the change of heart on wgeurts? Again, why the change of heart?

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

FinnLaw: I really like this post. He has a lot of posts I like and agree with actually. I'm leaning town on him for now.


Eh. So this is how I feel about things so far. If you feel like reading it, do so.

[TellTaleHeart]

Even after 48 hours, I unfortunately don't feel any better about this unholy mess of a tangled game.

I'm going to go eat lunch, now but I'll be back in a bit.

[Riddleton]

At this stage in the game, I townread Wgeurts, Newbie, Constantine and MathDino. Leaning scum on VictorDeAngelo and MalaKittens.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

---

Victor

a) First off, we see Victor is quite persistent that people answer their own questions. The conversation between Victor and Acryon here, especially considering the sarcastic tone of the post, comes off as extremely awkward and strange to me. His defensive tone in this post this post is unwarranted, as he was under no suspicion whatsoever at the time.

b) The post on here reads as Victor trying to easily slide on the low-hanging fruit by voting wgeurts. The vote isn't pressure, but yet he doesn't provide any reasoning to back up his wgeurts vote. I don't like how he pushes a wagon by saying "All Aboard" without providing any reasoning for it. In this post, he outright refuses to provide reasoning, instead just posting fluff that the wagon will lead to 'Jelly and Ice Cream'. He later implies the vote was just a reaction test, which makes no sense whatsoever, and just looks like scum trying to back down from suspicion.

c) Post #65 also takes on a hyper-defensive tone, too. Points such as "I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference." are devoid of emotion and unlike, more sarcastic and joke-y, earlier play. The comment, 'That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon.', tries to passively shoot down Acryon's disapproval of Victor's play. Post #73 and #80 takes on a similar hyper-defensive tone, also, and continue the trend of one-line replies to humongous quotes, to give the false impression of activity whereas there's very little content in Victor's posts. In #80, as linked, he still refuses to interact with wgeurts.

d) Quite a bit of IIOA in here citing meaningless replies to genuine questions and issues. Posts such as 'I don't like #thispost', etc, are not helpful to the gamestate and are usually seen by scum trying to fit-in to the town, without participating much content. We see Victor declaring Mala, my other main scum suspect, as 'town because of opening posts'. What makes you think this? Can you explain in more detail?

e) In the same post, he still hasn't explained his initial wgeurts vote. Nice try with trying to say 'I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.', but you voted Wgeurts in #53. Obviously, something else has fuelled your reasoning for voting wgeurts, and I don't like you're trying to subtly imply that was your reasoning, especially since the post was made after you voted him in the first place. My theory is he made the wgeurts vote, and just bullshitted his way through it, inventing new reasoning for sticking with it in posts like this. It's a bit of cognitive dissonance. He never has, and I don't think he ever will, explain his

original

reasoning for voting him.

In a nutshell:
-Hyper-defensive play which I don't like
-Dodges his original wgeurts vote, cognitive dissonance with trying to believe it's still a viable wagon by inventing new reasoning for it 'oh this is scummy, yeah wgeurts is scum'. Spoiler alert: wgeurts isn't scum.
-Never really provides any content. His ISO is 90% bullshit.

[Mathdino]

Okay, that's the first legit case of Victor all game. I'll look over his ISO when I get back and see if I agree.

@Newbie: This post is when Victor started being helpful in my eyes and was what made me change my mind on him.
Not much time but like I said, I'll see if Riddleton's case has any ground later today.

[Riddleton]

This post is when Victor started being helpful in my eyes and was what made me change my mind on him.

How is that helpful?

[Riddleton]

@mod: V/LA from 27th October (tomorrow) to 5th November. Emphasis on LA -- I'll still be around to post, I'll just be less active.

[Malakittens]

Why does everything have to be scum motivation in reading someone. Why can't i be town feeling that someone posts rang town to me..?

[Riddleton]

Why are you making a generalization in that we're all scumreading you for one particular reason?

[Riddleton]

Constantine

, thoughts on MalaKittens, please.

[TellTaleHeart]

Creating lists of townreads and trying to use process of elimination hasn't been working so far. I feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel every time I sit down to posts, so right now my priority is to get some stability. A different method is needed.

To move forward I have to get to the heart of the quagmire in my reads. I don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I need to say a few things.

Malakittens:

I suspect you're not reading my posts given 1) you apparently think I'm a "he" and 2) your recent exchange with Wisdom regarding what I said about Constantine's post. That's alright, though. I'm not here to judge you for that.

Your answers to Wisdom's recent questioning, especially post 692 and post 697, leave a lot to be desired. First, there's the issue of your read on Wisdom. When you strip away all the out-of-game references that I cannot evaluate and get to the core of the case, I'm left with the "premature push" reason, which I completely don't understand. When should he have pushed you? How should he have pushed you? Should he have waited for later? Why and if so, when would that have been? I have no idea.

Referring back to post 697, why do you think Victor is scummy? Also, if you have a tell you want to use on him, why are you saying so? Isn't it counterproductive to show your hand this early? I don't know if you're just trying to weigh things or if you really don't have a tell on Victor and you're just procrastinating on taking a side.

Wisdom:

Hello Wisdom. I sense from your posts that you think I'm annoying and I strongly suspect that you don't like me. I'm not here to argue with you about that because I know I can be a difficult person and I apologize if I offend you on any personal level. I still have to read you though. I'm hitting a huge snag when I go to do that and it's mainly due to the fact that I have no idea what you're thinking. Your recent conversation with Malakittens is a perfect example. I just described all the things I disliked about Mala's answers, which to me are glaringly obvious. What absolutely kills me is that it doesn't seem to bother you at all. It would be one thing if you were quizzing her on every little detail, but you're not and there's no feedback mechanism that tells me what kind of meaning you're attaching to these answers.

And it's not just Malakittens this happens with. I noticed you addressed blindmewithscience a few times this game, but no read or thought came of it. I initially thought you were scummy for this opacity, but now it just confuses me.

I don't really know if I'm going to get anything out of all this or if you're even going to answer me, but it's worth a shot I suppose.

[TellTaleHeart]

In the meanwhile, the only way to go is forward.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

My read on Wisdom plays into the Victor read slightly, but my townreads on Riddleton/SilverWolf and blindmewithscience still make me think Victor is scum pushing bad angles.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Constantine

, thoughts on MalaKittens, please.

Mala's very hard to read. I haven't town read her yet, but a couple times she's dipped to mild scum.
She plays like someone I know before who was often my scumbuddy, and that's the only reason I did at times scum read her.

I agree with her point on "Scum motivation" not being a reason to vote people, and I like what she has said so far, but that gut feeling hasn't left me.

[blindmewithscience]

Constantine

, thoughts on MalaKittens, please.

Mala's very hard to read. I haven't town read her yet, but a couple times she's dipped to mild scum.
She plays like someone I know before who was often my scumbuddy, and that's the only reason I did at times scum read her.

Could you point out these places where exactly this happened, and explain your reasoning for them?

-Dodges his original wgeurts vote, cognitive dissonance with trying to believe it's still a viable wagon by inventing new reasoning for it 'oh this is scummy, yeah wgeurts is scum'. Spoiler alert: wgeurts isn't scum.

I'm really confused lost on the wgeurts is town argument. What more is there to it besides the belief that he is a frustrated townie (and is voting of himself)?

@any-pro-wgeurts, please explain the case to me.

And, still no response to the arguments that have been placed against him (see my 445).

[Riddleton]

wgeurts is town. I don't see newbie-scum self-voting in a situation like that. Not much of his play sticks out other than that, though.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Could you point out these places where exactly this happened, and explain your reasoning for them?

I didn't mention any particular post, so what is it exactly you want me to show you?

I'm really confused lost on the wgeurts is town argument

Considering you're new to mafia, it is understandable. It has nothing to do with being Pro-Wguert's, as he looks 100% town to any person who's been playing this game over a month.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Masonfishing. While I agree with your point in you previous post that he could be someone who believes that masonfishing was somehow good, this point doesn't work for me because wgeurts was explicitly told not to masonfish, such as in 187, before pushing a masonclaim in 288. Your argument in favor of him isn't working well one for me.

While the idea is obviously out of place, I do understand where he's coming from. Masons aren't a very powerful role, unless they are trying to confirm each other.
The whole act of confirming is only necessary when a mason is being targeted for lynching.

It's also not unlikely Wguert's is a mason by using "mason psychology" so many times.

Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.

That isn't a scum tell. The only time a contradiction is scummy, is when something is said contrary to an action undertaken.

His weird voting. The quite rapid unvoting of himself (which I agree he should have done), his voting near the beginning of the game.

Again, not a scumtell. This also appears to be the meta he's carrying in all his games.

Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games (check his post history).
I want a response to 1 and 2 (and maybe 4) when (if?) returns.

Not a scumtell

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Here are actual scum tells
- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

[reinoe]

wgeurts gets prodded! It's a vanilla flavored prod with a hint of banana

[Malakittens]

Malakittens:

I suspect you're not reading my posts given 1) you apparently think I'm a "he" and 2) your recent exchange with Wisdom regarding what I said about Constantine's post. That's alright, though. I'm not here to judge you for that.

Your answers to Wisdom's recent questioning, especially post 692 and post 697, leave a lot to be desired. First, there's the issue of your read on Wisdom. When you strip away all the out-of-game references that I cannot evaluate and get to the core of the case, I'm left with the "premature push" reason, which I completely don't understand. When should he have pushed you? How should he have pushed you? Should he have waited for later? Why and if so, when would that have been? I have no idea.

Referring back to post 697, why do you think Victor is scummy? Also, if you have a tell you want to use on him, why are you saying so? Isn't it counterproductive to show your hand this early? I don't know if you're just trying to weigh things or if you really don't have a tell on Victor and you're just procrastinating on taking a side.

Eh, I'm the worst person with pronouns. Unless I talk to you like daily or played in a shitton of games I'll incorrectly call everyone by he because that's what my mind is defaulted at. I'll get it right sooner or later. Don't take it personally.

I misread your whole exchange with constantine. I'm sorry, but I'm not a robot and I'm human. I have this bad habit of reading the thread from current posts backwards to what I have to catch up on.

Because he knows how to read me without actually having to push me, but his premature push feels like he's fishing for a certain reaction from me and I'm really not in the mood for it. I have this tendency to be like a calm kitten until you poke me a million times and then I bite. That's exactly what I feel like Wisdom is doing to me. He doesn't have to push me. He can read me off reactions to others which I feel he isn't doing. Maybe part of it is my fault because I'm not able to give this game my all because of working, but even then.

I have a tell on Victor that I don't believe he actually knows and I'm not sure even with my vague comment he will. I believe that the card is still in my control. I think Victor is scummy flat out, but as I said before I have no desire to push someone who's on V/LA and not able to response back. i think it's unfair to do and I refuse to do it.

[Malakittens]

Why are you making a generalization in that we're all scumreading you for one particular reason?

That was in response to Newbie's post directed at me than "everyone"

[Riddleton]

- Lurking

Lurking isn't a scumtell.